Spring 1910
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From - Fri Feb 01 18:23:12 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Why don't you give me back Trieste, then perhaps I would be more open to
negotiation.
Austria
From - Fri Feb 01 18:23:14 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
France is not going to like your F Stp/nc build, I am sure.
I am going to move War-Gal. If you let me keep Warsaw, you can be sure I
will use it against Italy, and I think this is to your advantage. The
longer it takes for Italy to roll through Austria, the longer before you
have to start worrying about him.
Austria
From - Fri Feb 01 18:23:15 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
As you can see, I decided to keep my fleet to keep Italy bogged down as
long as possible. I am hoping that both you and Russia value my goal.
The longer it takes Italy to defeat me, the better for both of you.
Austria
From - Fri Feb 01 18:23:18 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
So far, so good. I'm going to try to convince Russia to do Swe S Kie-Den, which
would let me bounce StP-Nwy with Nwg-Nwy.
Rod
From - Fri Feb 01 18:23:19 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
I will move MAO north to complete our DMZ.
Adam indicated to me that he thinks his best option is to help you take out Austria
so he can get some growth to secure his own position, so hopefully you'll have a
fairly easy time in the south. I think it will take me a few years to clean up the north,
even if I can get some German help, but eventually I will prevail. I don't think we'll
have any trouble securing a two-way.
Rod
From - Fri Feb 01 18:23:20 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> As you can see, I decided to keep my fleet to keep Italy bogged down as
> long as possible.
I think the ideal situation would be if he doesn't get any builds this year. If I get
a build and he doesn't, a new fleet in Mar would give me a good position.
Rod
From - Fri Feb 01 18:23:23 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
I like your idea of taking Nwy while I get Hol. If you also take Den then we each get
a build, which would be ideal.
What do you think of the position in the south? If we can arrange for Italy to not get
a build this year, a new fleet in Mar would finally give me the opportunity to make a
productive push in the south.
Rod
From - Fri Feb 01 18:23:27 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
>So far, so good. I'm going to try to convince Russia to do Swe S Kie-Den,
>which would let me bounce StP-Nwy with Nwg-Nwy.
I've ordered den-hel and ruh-kie. Try not to get my army destroyed.
I'm going to be away for most of the weekend, but that still leaves plenty
of time for me to change orders Monday if you come up with a better idea
based upon your talks with Russia.
Tim
From - Fri Feb 01 18:23:28 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
That's the trick, isn't it, keeping Italy from getting a build. I will
certainly see what I can do. Italy is going to have to keep his fleets
East for another turn at least. I've given you all the time I can.
After my fleet is gone, you're on your own. I hope my efforts have not
been in vain.
Austria
From - Mon Feb 04 21:39:31 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I think we were lucky in last moves :-) Germany and Austria made a good
retreats/removals.
> I will move MAO north to complete our DMZ.
Good, then we have a large space between us so that if one moves
there the other is alarmed early enough.
> Adam indicated to me that he thinks his best option is to help you take out
> Austria so he can get some growth to secure his own position, so
> hopefully you'll have a fairly easy time in the south. I think it will
> take me a few years to clean up the north,
> even if I can get some German help, but eventually I will prevail. I don't
> think we'll have any trouble securing a two-way.
Keith is still much bigger obstacle than Tim. I heard that Tim is your
puppet. I am a bit afraid that you are way ahead me in major stalemate
line... It depends a lot of the attitude of AG how we manage to get rid of
them. Do you have any idea of their fighting moral?
Raine
From - Mon Feb 04 21:39:35 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> Surely it's easy to move it into Sev this spring/fall as I take
> Rum isn't it? Or am I not getting Rum anymore?
You can have it. It is only that I am not so sure how to go for it.
You'll need two armies to get rid of Austria in Warsaw. So maybe it would
be wisest for you to move Sev-Rum and Arm-Sev. I am not sure if I trust
you enough to convoy you to Rum.
> North coast is the order I have in at the moment. France is going
> to be able to grab most of Germany and Scandanavia off me pretty
> easily if that's what he wants to do though. Personally I think
> that he'll leave attacking me until after he's crossed the stalemate
> line and taken Tunis, which is why I continue to encourage you to
> make sure you protect that province. If France takes Tunis he'll
> almost certainly solo. You really need to convoy an army out there
> this year and get a fleet or two ready to protect it too.
If France moves towards me from Mao I still have time to protect Tunis.
I won't give Tunis to France.
> He thinks that you and France have made a two-way-draw pact. I
> suspect he's right about that,
What makes you think this way?
> but I have no doubt that France
> will break that pact and take Tunis as soon as he finds it
> convienient. If I were him that would be this year, or next
> at the very latest. He's trying to encourage me to make some
> moves or another, I haven't really checked what since there's
> little point before the builds happen, which he thinks will
> at least slow you down. I don't really want to do that, I want
> to eliminate Austria and Germany as quickly as possible and
> start setting draw, but if you and France both continue to
> ignore the Tunis issue without at least explaining why I'll
> start to think that two-way is more than a convienient fiction
> which would give me pause.
I am moving towards Tunis immediately if France moves Mao towards me. That
is obvious you don't need to worry about it.
You can check our stats from Alain Tesio's great floc.net. You'll notice
that there ain't a single carebear 2way draw in our (FI) stats. I have one
2way where I was Turkey and the other was England. We both would have
taken the solo if we only had the chance. Rod seems to have one 2way too
but he played only from S1913R till the end and the game was no-press.
I wouldn't say that me and Rod are carebears.
Raine
From - Mon Feb 04 21:39:37 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> I like your idea of taking Nwy while I get Hol. If you also take
> Den then we each get a build, which would be ideal.
Sounds good. So spring moves are StP-Nwy and Kie-Ber with Hol-Kie
then fall moves take Den with support from Swe. I should be able
to protect Kie, Ber and Mun from the German fleet which will
no doubt be in Bal.
> What do you think of the position in the south? If we can
> arrange for Italy to not get a build this year, a new fleet
> in Mar would finally give me the opportunity to make a productive
> push in the south.
It's complex. My main aim has to be to see Keith reduced I
think, which means hopefully taking Rum and War, though
I can see ways that both of those will fail. Assuming
that Keith defends himself as much as he can though it's
not obvious where Italy will be a build this year, but
it would definately be the last year where that's true.
Whether he builds this year or not, I'm pretty sure he'll
be taking Austrian centers after that until they're all
gone basically.
Adam...........
From - Mon Feb 04 21:39:39 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
[Rumania]
> You can have it. It is only that I am not so sure how to go for it.
> You'll need two armies to get rid of Austria in Warsaw. So maybe it would
> be wisest for you to move Sev-Rum and Arm-Sev. I am not sure if I trust
> you enough to convoy you to Rum.
Well, this is what I was suggesting all along, Arm-Sev and Sev-Rum
supported by Bla. Will the support be there? It's certainly the
quickest way to get A Arm into the Russian homeland and away
from Italian Turkey.
> If France moves towards me from Mao I still have time to protect Tunis.
> I won't give Tunis to France.
For now this is true, I'm just hoping you can continue to keep
it true rather than being tempted to use more units than are
needed in Austria. If France does as I expect he'd move
MAO-West this fall along with Eng-MAO. He'd build a new
fleet in Mar over the winter. He'd have a pretty good
attack from that, with Tunis falling within a year or
so unless you manage to get another unit into Tys or
Tun before it happens.
> > He thinks that you and France have made a two-way-draw pact. I
> > suspect he's right about that,
>
> What makes you think this way?
It's the most likely explanation for the complete lack of
engagement in the Med. I'm sure that if such a pact has
been made that neither of you really intend to keep to it.
> I am moving towards Tunis immediately if France moves Mao towards me.
> That is obvious you don't need to worry about it.
My worry would be that by the time France moved to West and
built in Mar it would be too late. You have this Spring in
hand, certainly, but unless you have another fleet in Tys
or an army in Tunis I think that France would have a good
chance to take Tunis if he went for it this fall. It may
take over a year, he may need to take Tys first, but Tunis
would eventually fall.
> I wouldn't say that me and Rod are carebears.
I didn't say you were. Two way's don't always have to be carebare
two-ways and even more relevent I'm sure that you both have
plans to break any two-way pact you have currently arranged.
In fact, I think France will probably break it this year.
Adam..........
From - Mon Feb 04 21:39:49 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> [Rumania]
> Well, this is what I was suggesting all along, Arm-Sev and Sev-Rum
> supported by Bla. Will the support be there? It's certainly the
> quickest way to get A Arm into the Russian homeland and away
> from Italian Turkey.
Adam I want to be honest like I have always been. If I promise to support
Sev-Rum it means that you know what Black Sea is doing. I am not sure if I
want it.
> For now this is true, I'm just hoping you can continue to keep
> it true rather than being tempted to use more units than are
> needed in Austria. If France does as I expect he'd move
> MAO-West this fall along with Eng-MAO. He'd build a new
> fleet in Mar over the winter. He'd have a pretty good
> attack from that, with Tunis falling within a year or
> so unless you manage to get another unit into Tys or
> Tun before it happens.
I keep this in mind. Don't worry about it. If France solos it is not with
Tunis in his 18 centers.
> My worry would be that by the time France moved to West and
> built in Mar it would be too late. You have this Spring in
> hand, certainly, but unless you have another fleet in Tys
> or an army in Tunis I think that France would have a good
> chance to take Tunis if he went for it this fall. It may
> take over a year, he may need to take Tys first, but Tunis
> would eventually fall.
That is why we should make it sure that I get builds when France gets too
:-) Then I can build a fleet to Rome if he has entered Med, it is simple.
> I didn't say you were. Two way's don't always have to be carebare
> two-ways and even more relevent I'm sure that you both have
> plans to break any two-way pact you have currently arranged.
> In fact, I think France will probably break it this year.
I share your concern of possible future pressure on Tunis. I also think
that there will be a huge amount of pressure against Scandinavia and StP
not to mention Holland and former Germany.
Do you think you need a support to Mun? I am not sure if I can arrange it
but I am certainly interested in slowing Rod down a bit.
Raine
From - Mon Feb 04 21:39:53 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I want to make sure that we co-operate without friction. That's why I want
to make it clear that it is essential that you manage to move away from
Mao. If you fail, let's say you bounce with Mao-Eng that is bad I want to
tell you that our alliance would be broken if you cannot move away from
Mao.
My concern is simple:
-Mao-Eng(or whatever that bounces) in spring
-Mao-Wes in fall
-fleet build in Mar in winter.
Rod, don't think about this kind of plan. I'll treat Mao bounce as
declaration of war. There is a simple way to prevent troubles between us:
move Mao-Nao. That doesn't bounce.
I am not saying that you were thinking of this kind of plan to attack
me. I am just saying that how I will react to Mao's possible bounce.
Adam is talking a lot to disturb our alliance :-) We shouldn't listen to
him. We are doing fine with FI and there is no need start battling. I
hope you agree.
Raine
From - Mon Feb 04 21:39:54 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Adam I want to be honest like I have always been. If I promise to support
> Sev-Rum it means that you know what Black Sea is doing. I am not sure if I
> want it.
I'm not sure what I could do with the information. There's only one
fleet that can interfere with Bla's movement at all, Sev, and
it's not enough force to do anything other than cut support
anyway. What else is there that you can do with Bla anyway?
Convoy Ank into Rum? Without support the move wouldn't work.
I guess Bul might need support, but it won't need that
support if Rum's support is cut. Okay: If Austria ordered
Ser S Rum - Bul then that would succeed, but we could
easily support another unit back in during the fall.
Sev - Rum has been entered as my move. If you want Austria
to fall quickly, as I do, you'll support it.
> I keep this in mind. Don't worry about it. If France solos it is not with
> Tunis in his 18 centers.
If that's true then the only way we'll end with anything other
than the three way FIR is if you hassle me so much in the
south that I can't even defend the stalemate line Tyr-StP.
Or I guess if Austria gets to survive so long he can make
himself indespensible on that line.
> That is why we should make it sure that I get builds when France gets too
> :-) Then I can build a fleet to Rome if he has entered Med, it is simple.
Is there a chance you might not? I assumed Tri - Vie with support
from Tyr this spring, Ven being supported into Tri. Um, actually
that's just a 50/50 if War-Gal this spring isn't it. Well then
the only way I can see to guarentee you a build would be if
you convoyed Arm - Rum, then I could use Rum to cut support
in Bud. I'd be open to doing that instead of Sev - Rum if you
wanted.
> I share your concern of possible future pressure on Tunis. I also think
> that there will be a huge amount of pressure against Scandinavia and StP
> not to mention Holland and former Germany.
Well, probably you're right though it's worth noting that France
might not want to make an enemy of me until he's crossed the
stalemate line already. He knows that he won't get to 18 without
Tunis and that there's little I can do to stop him taking Germany
and Scandinavia. There's a chance he'll decide that he need not
make an enemy of me until he's crossed that stalemate line.
That's what I'd probably do.
> Do you think you need a support to Mun? I am not sure if I can arrange it
> but I am certainly interested in slowing Rod down a bit.
If you can spare the support, Munich will be greatful of it. I
don't think that France will try anything against me until the
fall at least, but I've been wrong before!
Adam.........
From - Mon Feb 04 21:39:58 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> France is not going to like your F Stp/nc build, I am sure.
He didn't object to it, even though he had advance warning of it.
I'm finding him difficult to read, either he's genuine and not
really interested in anything past a three way or he's keeping
his plans very close to his chest. Probably the latter I'm sure.
Hopefully it won't be the last F StP that I get to build.
> I am going to move War-Gal. If you let me keep Warsaw, you can be sure I
> will use it against Italy, and I think this is to your advantage. The
> longer it takes for Italy to roll through Austria, the longer before you
> have to start worrying about him.
That's true I suppose. I'm not sure what you were planning to
do with Syr still. Sev - Bla and Arm - Smy don't do anything
more than cut supports for units that Italy wouldn't actually
be planning to use to support anything I'd have thought. Isn't
Italy going to be concentrating on taking Vie or Bud and
leaving Turkey basically on holds until we're forced to disband
those units anyway?
I'd like to help, and may leave War to keep you alive for a
while, but I'm less convinced we can make headway against
Italy than I was a year ago when you were apparently so
sure we couldn't you moved against me instead.
Adam..........
From - Mon Feb 04 21:40:00 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
My strategy is to try to keep Italy bogged down in Turkey to entice
France to move against him. Otherwise, in the long-term, we have no hope
against Italy. Italy doesn't have his units very effecitely placed, and
he can't cover everything while also protecting against France. I'm
counting on France attacking eventually. Maybe he won't.
Austria
From - Mon Feb 04 21:40:02 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
> I'm going to be away for most of the weekend, but that still leaves plenty
> of time for me to change orders Monday if you come up with a better idea
> based upon your talks with Russia.
My "agreement" with him is that I get Hol while he takes Nwy and Den. He claims to
be doing StP-Nwy, Kie-Ber, Hol-Kie, with Swe S Kie-Den in the Fall. OTOH, I suspect
he doesn't trust me, so who knows what he'll actually do? Let's just stick with our
current plan.
Rod
From - Mon Feb 04 21:40:04 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Sounds good. So spring moves are StP-Nwy and Kie-Ber with Hol-Kie
> then fall moves take Den with support from Swe. I should be able
> to protect Kie, Ber and Mun from the German fleet which will
> no doubt be in Bal.
That's a good plan. There is the possibility of Germany tripping things up with a
supported attack on Kie, but F Hol can always retreat to Hel if it fails to move to Kie.
> Whether he builds this year or not, I'm pretty sure he'll
> be taking Austrian centers after that until they're all
> gone basically.
I think you're right.
Rod
From - Mon Feb 04 21:40:06 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> Keith is still much bigger obstacle than Tim.
That's true, but if Adam assists you (hoping for a place in a three-way) then Keith
shouldn't last too long.
> I am a bit afraid that you are way ahead me in major stalemate line...
Perhaps. You do need to get your armies advancing to the front, but I don't think
the north will resolve quickly either. Russia still has good defenses.
> It depends a lot of the attitude of AG how we manage to get rid of
> them. Do you have any idea of their fighting moral?
I'm confident that we'll wear them out eventually - it just requires time and focus.
> I am just saying that how I will react to Mao's possible bounce.
OK. It is good for us to understand each other. :-)
> Adam is talking a lot to disturb our alliance :-) We shouldn't listen to
> him. We are doing fine with FI and there is no need start battling.
I agree. Adam realizes that we can grind him out if we set our minds to it, so his
only recourse it to distract us. Let's not allow him to deter us from our two-way.
Rod
From - Mon Feb 04 21:40:07 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
>Let's just stick with our
>current plan.
No changes, then.
Tim
From - Mon Feb 04 21:40:08 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> My strategy is to try to keep Italy bogged down in Turkey to entice
> France to move against him. Otherwise, in the long-term, we have no hope
> against Italy. Italy doesn't have his units very effecitely placed, and
> he can't cover everything while also protecting against France. I'm
> counting on France attacking eventually. Maybe he won't.
France tells me he'll build F Mar at the end of the year and move
MAO-West in the fall if it looks like Italy won't get any builds
this year. I think we may be able to keep him from doing that,
though it's a 50/50 gamble from what I can make out.
Adam.........
From - Mon Feb 04 21:40:12 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> France tells me he'll build F Mar at the end of the year and move
> MAO-West in the fall if it looks like Italy won't get any builds
> this year. I think we may be able to keep him from doing that,
> though it's a 50/50 gamble from what I can make out.
I think there is some chance that we can keep Italy from building.
Beware France, though. He is probably telling you what you want to
hear. He may well have no intention of attacking Italy, and you should
not weaken your defenses against him.
Austria
From - Mon Feb 04 21:40:21 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Just to reiterate, I will support Arm-Smy with Syria. I hope you make
this move, though I anticipate that my support will be cut. Also, moving
Sev-Bla may keep your army in Armenia alive. If I were Italy, I would
try to destroy both A Arm and F Syr this turn by ordering Ank-Arm, Bla S
Ank-Arm, Eas-Syr, Smy s Eas-Syr.
Austria
From - Mon Feb 04 21:40:28 2002
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: S1910M Tue Feb 05 2002 20:00:00 +1300
Movement results for Spring of 1910. (gutsy.039)
Austria: Army Warsaw -> Galicia.
Austria: Army Vienna -> Trieste. (*bounce*)
Austria: Fleet Syria SUPPORT Russian Army Armenia -> Smyrna. (*void, dislodged*)
Austria: Army Serbia SUPPORT Army Vienna -> Trieste.
Austria: Army Rumania -> Budapest.
France: Army Burgundy -> Munich. (*bounce*)
France: Army Yorkshire -> Edinburgh.
France: Fleet Norwegian Sea -> Barents Sea.
France: Army Belgium -> Holland.
France: Fleet North Sea SUPPORT Army Belgium -> Holland.
France: Fleet English Channel SUPPORT Army Picardy -> Belgium.
France: Army Picardy -> Belgium.
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean -> North Atlantic Ocean.
France: Army Paris -> Burgundy. (*bounce*)
Germany: Army Ruhr -> Kiel. (*bounce*)
Germany: Fleet Denmark -> Helgoland Bight.
Italy: Army Ankara SUPPORT Army Smyrna.
Italy: Army Trieste -> Albania.
Italy: Fleet Black Sea SUPPORT Fleet Bulgaria.
Italy: Fleet Eastern Mediterranean -> Syria.
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea SUPPORT Army Trieste -> Albania.
Italy: Army Tyrolia SUPPORT Army Venice -> Trieste.
Italy: Fleet Bulgaria (south coast) HOLD.
Italy: Fleet Adriatic Sea SUPPORT Army Venice -> Trieste.
Italy: Army Smyrna SUPPORT Fleet Eastern Mediterranean -> Syria.
Italy: Army Venice -> Trieste.
Russia: Fleet Holland -> Kiel. (*bounce, dislodged*)
Russia: Army Armenia -> Sevastopol.
Russia: Army Munich SUPPORT Fleet Holland -> Kiel. (*cut*)
Russia: Army Sweden -> Denmark.
Russia: Army Kiel -> Berlin.
Russia: Fleet Sevastopol -> Rumania.
Russia: Fleet St Petersburg (north coast) -> Norway.
Russia: Army Moscow -> Warsaw.
The following units were dislodged:
The Austrian Fleet in Syria with no valid retreats was destroyed.
The Russian Fleet in Holland with no valid retreats was destroyed.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Movement for Fall of 1910.
The deadline for orders will be Fri Feb 08 2002 20:00:00 +1300.
