Spring 1909
This page is part of a frameset, if you can't see the navigation bar to the left, go to the main index page.
From - Sun Jan 13 08:12:56 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Master in 'gutsy':
Austria's EOY statement for 1908
Italy attacked as expected. He tried to cover it up with his press, but
that only served to irritate me. I convinced Russia to move to Armenia
and build F Sev, although I'll bet France had some hand in that too.
France knows that if he can take and hold Tunis, he has a pretty good
shot at winning the game. Russia won't have enough strength to resist
him in the North, especially with his southern fleet build this Winter.
I am concerned that Italy has some vandetta against me. He really seems
to want to get rid of me for some reason. I don't have the power really
to throw the game to France, but if I am successful at defending for a
few years, France will be able to get the upper hand against ITaly if he
chooses. Italy has already moved his fleets east, and I'll have to move
them more east in order to destroy my fleet and to combat Russia in Turkey.
I think I have Russia on my side, but you never know.
It would be ideal for me if Italy would reverse course now. Russia's
home centers are so poorly defended I'll bet Italy and I could take three
of them in a year or two. I don't know if Germany would survive long,
but I would have enough time to fortify Munich. If Italy and I hold
Munich, Warsaw, Moscow and Tunis, France can't win. Will that happen? I
don't know. It depends on Italy. He must see that his best chance now
is a draw.
Germany is not responding to press anymore. I hope he hasn't given up.
I don't really see AGI as a likely finish, though.
If I'm lucky I can get an AFI draw out of this. The alternative is a
French win. Small consolation.
I would be in slightly better shape if I had guessed right against Italy
this turn. I should have moved to Smyrna. He will be able to take
Trieste pretty easily, but unless he gets his armies around me, it might
take some time to push much further in. If he tries to convoy in the
Spring, I'll bet France will pounce on Tunis. I won't where Italy will
try, probably a convoy to Albania.
keith
From - Sun Jan 13 08:12:58 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Have you had a chance to read my last message? What do you think?
What sort of ending are you playing for in this game? It seems to me
that the two possibilities are AFI and F solo. Do you agree?
If you don't move your fleets west this turn, France can take Tunis. If
that happens, all is not lost. We can still stop him at Munich, but the
more armies he builds, the harder it becomes.
Austria
From - Sun Jan 13 08:13:01 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Cat got your tongue?
Austria
From - Sun Jan 13 15:29:34 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Thanks for not building to Mar :-)
I have no problems with your co-operation with Adam against Germany. Go
ahead.
Also thanks for telling the Austrian intentions. I knew he would keep his
fleet and my guess was that he'll remove Bud. According to FIR the Russian
build was not nice...
So, according to our dmz plan you are moving Spa(sc)-Mao and
Mao-Nao/Iri/Eng/Bre/Gas, then we are almost demilitarized the space
between us like we agreed. You certainly don't mind if I defend Tunis as
long as you are in Mao? I mean, I am aware of possible pressure on Tunis
so as long as you are in Mao I can be in Tunis and Tys? I think this is
only fair. How about you?
Raine
From - Sun Jan 13 15:29:35 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
(apologies if this comes twice I got no reply from judge to previous one)
Thanks for your long note. We are on the right track now.
> Hi, I have been looking at the map. Here are some thoughts. If you keep
> attacking me, I am pretty sure that I can keep you bogged down for quite
> some time, and you will need to use most if not all of your units against
> me to stamp me out. Meanwhile, if I have to lose supply centers, I will
> try to give them (and some of yours, if possible) to Russia. You have a
> lot of fleets that are not particularly useful against Austria.
If I attack you like I have threatened it means that you are gone and
France will win. That has been my baseline. I have asked you to do the
first move and you have asked me to do it. I guess two stubborn players
will die and tell each other 'I told you'.
Well, I don't like that vision. Do you?
> Now, look at Germany. Look how the French units are positioned. Germany
> is on the verge of collapse. France has no need to move Mid and Spa
> against Germany. Russia and France have Germany in some dire straights
> indeed.
Yes, both are saying that they'll co-operate to kill Germany ASAP. What
does it mean to us? One of us is going to be killed and one of us has the
possibility to be in 3way draw. Do you agree?
> The problem is that Russia will not be able to protect the German
> holdings against France. As we have discussed, France has a good chance
> of winning. Do you want him to win? What is your agreement with him?
> If you move your fleets any further east, he will take Tunis and soon
> thereafter perhaps some of the Italian home centers. Certainly with my
> help Venice could be threatened (wait until France gets into Munich).
I understand. France will overkill Russia in north that is for sure. I
have tried to tell this to Adam but he dosn't seem to realise it. Do I
want to see a French solo? Yes, if the alternative is draw where I am not
included.
> I am still not sure why you attacked me in the first place. Did you feel
> threatened by me, that I was about to gobble up all of your supply
> centers? Did you feel that you could quickly enough take my centers such
> that you would be able to build enough units to fend off France? Or did
> France put you up to this?
I played for the solo as long as there was a chance for it. Didn't you
play for the solo as long as you had the chance? In my view I got the
chance to fight for solo untill Russia moved to Armenia. Now the chance is
gone and I'll continue to fight for draw where I am included. If that
chance goes, I'll fight for loss against solo and not for a
draw. Reasonable?
> The current strategies will get us both nowhere. Why not pursue
> different strategies? Russia's units are scattered far and wide, and he
> presents himself as a vulnerable target. Imagine convoying Bulgaria to
> Sevastopol with my support in the Spring. Imagine moving your fleets
> west. Imagine building another fleet. If you don't, you see that France
> can move to take Tunis. If you do build a fleet, you will probably
> anyway start a war with France. Why not make it a total war?
How would I get a build? From Sevastopol? I wouldn't lose a center in
Turkey? C'mon...
Keith, face it you don't have a chance to survive if you don't co-operate
with me. What are you dreaming a FAR 3 way draw? What is the force that
will prevent French solo in south? I don't understand your point in
refusing to disband your fleet.
Russia is dreaming of solo (unbelievable!) he thinks there's a tiny
chance for it (there ain't!), next on his list he thinks he can have a
2way draw with France (what a joke!). And he know that his most probable
chance to survive is FIR. He co-operates with you 'cause he thinks that
you'll help to make me small power (to increase his 2way/solo dreams).
He also mentioned FAR but is why I am playing the blinking contest, I
won't defend against France as long as AR are working together.
What are your future plans?
-if you continue to work against me, I won't defend against France and
let's see how long we are arguing about who'll make the first move. I
guess France will solo before we have an agreement. Like you said my
fleets shouldn't be much help in attacking you, so you shouldn't be
worried of them. Go ahead and attack Russia that is your only chance to
survive. Or then let me know how you think you'll survive while you attack
me?
Summa summarum:
-if you continue to work with Russia agains me it means French solo most
likely but I'll have a chance to survive in FIR triple.
-if you attack Russia you have BIGGER chance to survive in FIA than you
would have in attacking me in FAR. When I see you moving against Russia I
can start to defend agaisnt France.
We have to face the fact that France is in any draws that there will be or
he'll solo.
I can already tell you that I am moving:
Ven S Tyr hold
Raine
From - Sun Jan 13 15:29:38 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Thanks for your long note. We are on the right track now.
> Hi, I have been looking at the map. Here are some thoughts. If you keep
> attacking me, I am pretty sure that I can keep you bogged down for quite
> some time, and you will need to use most if not all of your units against
> me to stamp me out. Meanwhile, if I have to lose supply centers, I will
> try to give them (and some of yours, if possible) to Russia. You have a
> lot of fleets that are not particularly useful against Austria.
If I attack you like I have threatened it means that you are gone and
France will win. That has been my baseline. I have asked you to do the
first move and you have asked me to do it. I guess two stubborn players
will die and tell each other 'I told you'.
Well, I don't like that vision. Do you?
> Now, look at Germany. Look how the French units are positioned. Germany
> is on the verge of collapse. France has no need to move Mid and Spa
> against Germany. Russia and France have Germany in some dire straights
> indeed.
Yes, both are saying that they'll co-operate to kill Germany ASAP. What
does it mean to us? One of us is going to be killed and one of us has the
possibility to be in 3way draw. Do you agree?
> The problem is that Russia will not be able to protect the German
> holdings against France. As we have discussed, France has a good chance
> of winning. Do you want him to win? What is your agreement with him?
> If you move your fleets any further east, he will take Tunis and soon
> thereafter perhaps some of the Italian home centers. Certainly with my
> help Venice could be threatened (wait until France gets into Munich).
I understand. France will overkill Russia in north that is for sure. I
have tried to tell this to Adam but he dosn't seem to realise it. Do I
want to see a French solo? Yes, if the alternative is draw where I am not
included.
> I am still not sure why you attacked me in the first place. Did you feel
> threatened by me, that I was about to gobble up all of your supply
> centers? Did you feel that you could quickly enough take my centers such
> that you would be able to build enough units to fend off France? Or did
> France put you up to this?
I played for the solo as long as there was a chance for it. Didn't you
play for the solo as long as you had the chance? In my view I got the
chance to fight for solo untill Russia moved to Armenia. Now the chance is
gone and I'll continue to fight for draw where I am included. If that
chance goes, I'll fight for loss against solo and not for a
draw. Reasonable?
> The current strategies will get us both nowhere. Why not pursue
> different strategies? Russia's units are scattered far and wide, and he
> presents himself as a vulnerable target. Imagine convoying Bulgaria to
> Sevastopol with my support in the Spring. Imagine moving your fleets
> west. Imagine building another fleet. If you don't, you see that France
> can move to take Tunis. If you do build a fleet, you will probably
> anyway start a war with France. Why not make it a total war?
How would I get a build? From Sevastopol? I wouldn't lose a center in
Turkey? C'mon...
Keith, face it you don't have a chance to survive if you don't co-operate
with me. What are you dreaming a FAR 3 way draw? What is the force that
will prevent French solo in south? I don't understand your point in
refusing to disband your fleet.
Russia is dreaming of solo (unbelievable!) he thinks there's a tiny
chance for it (there ain't!), next on his list he thinks he can have a
2way draw with France (what a joke!). And he know that his most probable
chance to survive is FIR. He co-operates with you 'cause he thinks that
you'll help to make me small power (to increase his 2way/solo dreams).
He also mentioned FAR but is why I am playing the blinking contest, I
won't defend against France as long as AR are working together.
What are your future plans?
-if you continue to work against me, I won't defend against France and
let's see how long we are arguing about who'll make the first move. I
guess France will solo before we have an agreement. Like you said my
fleets shouldn't be much help in attacking you, so you shouldn't be
worried of them. Go ahead and attack Russia that is your only chance to
survive. Or then let me know how you think you'll survive while you attack
me?
Summa summarum:
-if you continue to work with Russia agains me it means French solo most
likely but I'll have a chance to survive in FIR triple.
-if you attack Russia you have BIGGER chance to survive in FIA than you
would have in attacking me in FAR. When I see you moving against Russia I
can start to defend agaisnt France.
We have to face the fact that France is in any draws that there will be or
he'll solo.
I can already tell you that I am moving:
Ven S Tyr hold
Raine
From - Sun Jan 13 20:09:34 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> If I attack you like I have threatened it means that you are gone and
> France will win. That has been my baseline. I have asked you to do the
> first move and you have asked me to do it. I guess two stubborn players
> will die and tell each other 'I told you'.
The difference between us is that you are threatening to eliminate me,
and I'm not threatening you in the least. I have no room to maneuver,
while you have a lot. It is easier for you to make the first move. If I
make one wrong move now, I'm dead. The consequences for you are not so bad.
> Yes, both are saying that they'll co-operate to kill Germany ASAP. What
> does it mean to us? One of us is going to be killed and one of us has the
> possibility to be in 3way draw. Do you agree?
No, I don't see that. You can try to kill me, but before I'm gone, I
think you will need to rush back to defend against France, unless of
course you kill me quickly, which may be your objective, and is certainly
what I am trying to prevent. I don't think that Russia will be able to
hold out against France, and when France attacks Russia in earnest, it
might be better to put my armies in place to defend Mos, Mun and War if
Russia doesn't have the capability to do it. I don't think Russia is
viable in the long term, but perhaps he will surprise France and hold out
after all.
> I understand. France will overkill Russia in north that is for sure. I
> have tried to tell this to Adam but he dosn't seem to realise it. Do I
> want to see a French solo? Yes, if the alternative is draw where I am not
> included.
You are being ridiculous if you think you could be excluded from any
draw. How is this going to happen? It is plain to see that France wins
if he gets units into Italy. Don't let your paranoia prevent you from
doing the right thing. I thought I had made it clear to you that I felt
Italy's survival was essential. This is the message I have been sending
for quite some time, which was why I did not anticipate your agression
towards me.
> I played for the solo as long as there was a chance for it. Didn't you
> play for the solo as long as you had the chance? In my view I got the
> chance to fight for solo untill Russia moved to Armenia. Now the chance is
> gone and I'll continue to fight for draw where I am included. If that
> chance goes, I'll fight for loss against solo and not for a
> draw. Reasonable?
Well, as soon as you move away from me and give me some breathing room,
we can take care of the Russian problem quite quickly. I cannot
negotiate when I have a gun to my head.
> Keith, face it you don't have a chance to survive if you don't co-operate
> with me. What are you dreaming a FAR 3 way draw? What is the force that
> will prevent French solo in south? I don't understand your point in
> refusing to disband your fleet.
If we don't cooperate, France will win, that is true. But, the reason
for this is that I am not so easy to get rid of. If I did not have my
fleet, you could defend against France *and* eliminate me. With my
fleet, and with Russia's helping me for the moment, you have to decide
what is more important to you, eliminating Austria, or preventing France
from winning.
I hope this makes it clear why I have kept my fleet. It means that you
must go to some trouble to deal with me, and you won't have the
resources left to keep up defenses against France as well.
> Russia is dreaming of solo (unbelievable!) he thinks there's a tiny
> chance for it (there ain't!), next on his list he thinks he can have a
> 2way draw with France (what a joke!). And he know that his most probable
> chance to survive is FIR. He co-operates with you 'cause he thinks that
> you'll help to make me small power (to increase his 2way/solo dreams).
> He also mentioned FAR but is why I am playing the blinking contest, I
> won't defend against France as long as AR are working together.
FAR is not viable, because we would be unable to defend the Italian
centers against France. I have only one fleet, and France could take all
of Italy before I could get there. I will keep working with Russia while
you are still attacking me. While you attack me, I have to put up the
best defense possible.
> What are your future plans?
> -if you continue to work against me, I won't defend against France and
> let's see how long we are arguing about who'll make the first move. I
> guess France will solo before we have an agreement. Like you said my
> fleets shouldn't be much help in attacking you, so you shouldn't be
> worried of them. Go ahead and attack Russia that is your only chance to
> survive. Or then let me know how you think you'll survive while you attack
> me?
Look, you are the one with all of the power now. You can afford to
defend against France with out any losses in the East. Instead of taking
Trieste, you should use those units to defend against France. It is not
like my units within Austria are threatening you in some way.
I am in a situation where you are actively trying to eliminate me. I am
not about to attack Russia until you remove your threat from my boarder.
Here are my options as I see them:
1. Attack Russia without Italy's help. This means that I have enemies
on both sides from Italy and Russia. Austria gets crushed in the middle,
and I lose.
2. Defend against Italy with Russia's help. If Italy does not defend
against France, then France wins. Same result as #1.
3. I convince Italy to give me some breathing room. Italy defends
against France. Italy and Austria attack Russia in the Fall. This means
Germany survives for a little longer, giving us enough time to put armies
into the Russian teritory (which as you can see is vacant of armies
now). The result of this will be an AFI draw.
Which option would you choose as Austria? The choice is pretty clear to me.
Austria
From - Sun Jan 13 20:09:37 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi, I suggest moving Sev-Bla and Arm-Ank. I am guesing Italy might
expect you to support me to Smy, and he might try to cut your support.
If he moves Bla-Arm, he would be screwed. Or, you could try Arm-Smy.
What do you think?
Austria
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:02 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
I have ordered Tyr S Mun. I hope Keith won't cut it.
Raine
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:03 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
It appears that the deadline is tonight already. What do you think of Bel S Bur-Ruh,
Par-Bur, Ber S Hol-Kie, Pru-Sil, Nth S StP-Nwy? I think that has a good chance of
getting us Kie and/or Mun this year, and we can discuss who gets which centers in the
Fall. We should definitely plan for you to get a build, and if there's another left
for me all the better. :-)
If you prefer an alternate plan, just let me know.
Rod
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:04 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> You certainly don't mind if I defend Tunis as
> long as you are in Mao?
I don't mind if you move to Tun, but if you have a fleet in Tun then I'd prefer to
maintain a fleet in Spa - or are you planning to put an army in Tun?
> as long as you are in Mao I can be in Tunis and Tys?
No, I don't want to see a fleet in Tys. I agreed to the wider DMZ only because you
had moved out of Tys.
As a compromise, I propose that we keep fleets in Tun and Spa while we DMZ MAO and Tys.
I will move MAO-Eng. Is that acceptable?
Rod
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:06 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
I have my orders in. I have also set wait. I am not attacking you. I
understand your point what you are saying. I am sorry but I am in a hurry
and I have only a little time to write. Shortly, I have ordered Tyr S Mun.
I told Steve that I am ready to change it to something else if he wants me
to. I also support Tyr Hold. I hope this is ok with you. I am not sure if
I manage to be online before the deadline :-(
I am leaving Bulgaria empty. That'll be my first move towards our good
relations. I don't assume that you'll believe me. So I hope you'll make
such a set of moves that are not unabling our co-operation after spring
moves.
Raine
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:07 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> As a compromise, I propose that we keep fleets in Tun and Spa while we
> DMZ MAO and Tys. I will move MAO-Eng. Is that acceptable?
That is acceptable. Sorry, I am in a hurry, I might not be able to contact
you before the deadline.
Raine
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:08 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> That is acceptable.
OK. I'm glad that we have reached agreement. :-) A wide DMZ is good, but the trick
is coordinating our withdrawals so neither of us feels nervous.
> Sorry, I am in a hurry, I might not be able to contact
> you before the deadline.
No problem. I think we are in good shape.
Rod
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:09 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I am leaving Bulgaria empty. That'll be my first move towards our good
> relations. I don't assume that you'll believe me. So I hope you'll make
> such a set of moves that are not unabling our co-operation after spring
> moves.
Great, I am glad to hear it. I expect that we will be able to cooperate
in the Fall. I would like an additional center, and to get it, I'm
willing to disband my fleet after the Fall in conjunction with an assult
on Russia. We can coordinate an attack against Sevastopol. Perhaps I
can take it if you would like to keep Bulgaria.
I don't know what moves you do *not* want me to make this turn, but rest
assured that if my fleet manages to move anywhere, the effects are
certainly reversible. I think my moves will please you.
Austria
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:10 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hello, I anticipate that your fleet build has upset Italy, and therefore
he is likely to support Munich holding. I cannot afford to help you with
Vienna again this year, so I suggest that you try to take Kiel instead of
Munich this turn.
Good luck whatever you decide to do with Armenia. I don't think Italy
will take the risk of moving his Black Sea fleet, so I expect Arm-Ank
would work.
Austria
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:11 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Russian solo?
> Never. How would you do better than France in north? Especially when you
> don't build there. In south you aren't going to have enough fleets.
I didn't say it was likely.
> FR 2 way?
> No way. You don't have the fleets in south. In north you don't manage to
> keep Stp. Remember to count to 17.
Two ways are rare, the only times I've ever seen one it was
mutually agreed and I have no such agreement with France,
doubt I could trust it if there was one.
> FIR?
> Italy as minor? Possible, but I am not going to be happy about it. Of all
> you suggested (where you survive) this is the most likely.
You wouldn't have to be happy, just like it better than a
French solo.
> FAR?
> South is your problem. You don't have the fleets in there. Other problem
> you have a hostile Italy in there who is happy to help France to solo when
> he realizes that his own chances are gone.
I have one southern fleet now, if I built another one for every
Turkish center I could have four, plus Austria's fleet. How
many would we need to get an FAR?
Not that any of these are really high on my list of objectives
at the moment, I figure we're barely into the middlegame yet
and I'm certainly not a good enough player to be worrying about
the endgame right now in anything other than a very abstract
sense. So far as I can see right now, Germany is more or less
taken care of and isn't writing enough to change that. I will
have to build a line against France in the north pretty soon.
My choice right now seems to be aim for a three way RIF or
keep things open and flexible in the hope that the chances of
a solo arise but also keep in mind that the three way isn't
ruled out.
> Seriously, I like your idea of FIR.
I think you suggested it first, but the board suggests it
itself basically.
> If you atack me:
> What I am going to do when I see you grabbing my centers is
> to keep moving east. I give France a golden opportunity to take the
> advantage of it if he wants. I am going see who blinks first.
Well, if it's any indication, you seem to be looking further into
the future than I am so you'll notice when the French solo becomes
inevitable sooner than I do. Whether that will make you defend against
France or not I don't know. Austria certainly thinks you'll
be sending units East into Austria whatever I do.
> Co-operate with me:
> We take Austria out and you take Germany out with France. Still you lose
> the battle in North. Your chance was to build there but you aren't able to
> do it anymore.
So either I attack you, and eventually settle for FRI draw, or
I attack Austria and actually aim for an FRI draw? So long as
the draw isn't ruled out I don't see how deliberately trying to
get the draw rather than keeping the game open helps me any.
Adam.............
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:12 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
Sorry for not writing over the weekend, unfortunately I brought
a playstation2 so I didn't move off of the couch the entire time.
Grand Theft Auto3 is the best game I've played in a very long time.
> Hi, I suggest moving Sev-Bla and Arm-Ank. I am guesing Italy might
> expect you to support me to Smy, and he might try to cut your support.
> If he moves Bla-Arm, he would be screwed. Or, you could try Arm-Smy.
> What do you think?
Sev - Bla has to be the move. The question is what to do with Arm.
Options:
* Arm - Ank, possibly bounce with Bla leaving nobody getting anywhere
* Arm - Smy, assuming support from Eas it might work but cut from Ion is easy.
* Arm S Eas - Smy, as you said this could be cut from Bla.
* Arm - Syr, unexpected certainly. Means Bla will probably be Russian
in the fall and Bla will be in Arm or Ank.
I think that Bla is likely to move to Ank to be honest, Italy isn't
a great player and will probably just try to protect his centers
rather than overthinking the whole deal. That leaves us thinking
about Smy, who to support who. There's about equal chance that
either one will be cut I think, and Aeg will try to move to Smy,
surely. I prefer the move where I get the chance at the SC,
Eas S Arm - Smy, but I've really no idea if that stands a better
chance than Arm S Eas - Smy or not. You seemed to think Arm's
support would be cut while Ion will probably want to move to
Aeg in case Aeg - Smy succeds. Certainly Italy tells me he intends
to let France run rampage with the Med and do nothing about
it until I call off my attack.
Which do you prefer and why? Apparently the deadline is tonight,
they seem so short when the weekend takes up most of them.
Adam.............
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:14 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Could be, but hopefully you're increasing your own chances as well. :-)
Yeah, but the bookies favourite right now has to be France.
> Definitely. I was thinking that if Raine expects Arm-Ank and
> does Bla-Ank to bounce, Sev-Bla and a supported attack on Smy
> would be quite fruitful.
Looks fairly good, though I have to finish talking to Austria about
supports and whatnot, he has F Eas remember, and A Rum/A Ser play
quite a roll in this fight too.
> Sounds good, but I think it's better to devise the best possible
> attack then juggle centers if things look inequitable than to fix
> the fate of the centers before we know how we're going to get there.
I guess that's true, I think I was just checking that we
agreed on a 50/50 split of what's left. The problem with
this see-who-gets-there approach of course is that we're
going to need a solid and easily defended line between us
at some point. I'm not really sure what that line would look
like off hand but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have
French in Bel and Mun and Kie and Den while I was in Hol
for instance.
> leave Scandinavia solid but the Fatherland vulnerable, so we'll
> probably want to focus on Kie and Mun first. If we try Hol S
> Bur-Ruh, Ber S Hol-Kie, at least one of those moves will succeed.
Hol S Bur-Ruh won't work, Hol's a fleet that can't support inland.
Oh, I guess you mean Bel. Yeah, that looks good if you do mean
Bel. I'll order Hol - Kie supported by Berlin.
> We might as well also do Nwg S Nth (I'd rather not risk Nth),
> Nth S StP-Nwy, Pru-Sil. What do you think?
Also looks good, might as well try for Scandanavia though I doubt
it will work and Pru-Sil seems obvious enough.
> I told Raine I will move Spa-MAO, MAO-Eng. I'm debating whether
> I should actually do so or just go for Tun. I'd like to take Tun,
> but if you believe that you will have success against Italy in
> the east then it might not be urgent for me to immediately
> hit him in the west. What do you think my priorities should be?
Italy says that he's going to leave himself open to attack from
you, I certainly don't think he'll be able to do anything about
it if you don't back off. Kieth is saying that he expects Italy
to continue to fight him and even to lose supply centers though
he says he'll try to organise it so that I take the supply centers
from Austria rather than having Italy do so in return for my attacking
Italy. That's cool since I was attacking Italy anyway!
> The best move against G is probably B A Par, Par-Bur, MAO-Eng,
> then I can do Eng S Nth to free Nwg for other duties in the Fall.
> Or if you think Raine is our major hurdle I can go for Tun.
I don't think Raine will be much of a problem, whether this is
a reason to take Tunis or a reason to delay and concentrate on
Germany is a different question. The German battle looks like
we have enough units there to win it to me, possibly a fleet
in StP later on and it might be worth one extra French unit
at some point too but I don't see any rush and a convoy from
England to the mainland might be just as useful as an extra
unit.
> Italy has more centers right now, but Steve is the better
> player, and my first inclination is to string Raine along
> a little more rather than risk letting Germany off the hook.
> What are your feelings on this?
Steve is a better player, but Steve has clearly lost interest
or motivation or time or something - he's barely writing any
press at all and he's in a bad way. As you pointed out, his
home centers are vunerable and when he has to disband the rest
of his centers will collapse. I don't honestly believe either
Raine is going to be much hassle to you or that Steve will be
let off the hook whichever move you decide on. You'll look
less threatening for the solo if you leave Italy alone for
a while, but that kind of smoke-and-mirrors probably won't
wash with this crowd anyway.
Adam..........
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:16 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Repost: No reply from the judge. I hate my email, I have to get
something done about this eventually.
> Russian solo?
> Never. How would you do better than France in north? Especially when you
> don't build there. In south you aren't going to have enough fleets.
I didn't say it was likely.
> FR 2 way?
> No way. You don't have the fleets in south. In north you don't manage to
> keep Stp. Remember to count to 17.
Two ways are rare, the only times I've ever seen one it was
mutually agreed and I have no such agreement with France,
doubt I could trust it if there was one.
> FIR?
> Italy as minor? Possible, but I am not going to be happy about it. Of all
> you suggested (where you survive) this is the most likely.
You wouldn't have to be happy, just like it better than a
French solo.
> FAR?
> South is your problem. You don't have the fleets in there. Other problem
> you have a hostile Italy in there who is happy to help France to solo when
> he realizes that his own chances are gone.
I have one southern fleet now, if I built another one for every
Turkish center I could have four, plus Austria's fleet. How
many would we need to get an FAR?
Not that any of these are really high on my list of objectives
at the moment, I figure we're barely into the middlegame yet
and I'm certainly not a good enough player to be worrying about
the endgame right now in anything other than a very abstract
sense. So far as I can see right now, Germany is more or less
taken care of and isn't writing enough to change that. I will
have to build a line against France in the north pretty soon.
My choice right now seems to be aim for a three way RIF or
keep things open and flexible in the hope that the chances of
a solo arise but also keep in mind that the three way isn't
ruled out.
> Seriously, I like your idea of FIR.
I think you suggested it first, but the board suggests it
itself basically.
> If you atack me:
> What I am going to do when I see you grabbing my centers is
> to keep moving east. I give France a golden opportunity to take the
> advantage of it if he wants. I am going see who blinks first.
Well, if it's any indication, you seem to be looking further into
the future than I am so you'll notice when the French solo becomes
inevitable sooner than I do. Whether that will make you defend against
France or not I don't know. Austria certainly thinks you'll
be sending units East into Austria whatever I do.
> Co-operate with me:
> We take Austria out and you take Germany out with France. Still you lose
> the battle in North. Your chance was to build there but you aren't able to
> do it anymore.
So either I attack you, and eventually settle for FRI draw, or
I attack Austria and actually aim for an FRI draw? So long as
the draw isn't ruled out I don't see how deliberately trying to
get the draw rather than keeping the game open helps me any.
Adam.............
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:18 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> Could be, but hopefully you're increasing your own chances as well. :-)
Yeah, but the bookies favourite right now has to be France.
> Definitely. I was thinking that if Raine expects Arm-Ank and
> does Bla-Ank to bounce, Sev-Bla and a supported attack on Smy
> would be quite fruitful.
Looks fairly good, though I have to finish talking to Austria about
supports and whatnot, he has F Eas remember, and A Rum/A Ser play
quite a roll in this fight too.
> Sounds good, but I think it's better to devise the best possible
> attack then juggle centers if things look inequitable than to fix
> the fate of the centers before we know how we're going to get there.
I guess that's true, I think I was just checking that we
agreed on a 50/50 split of what's left. The problem with
this see-who-gets-there approach of course is that we're
going to need a solid and easily defended line between us
at some point. I'm not really sure what that line would look
like off hand but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have
French in Bel and Mun and Kie and Den while I was in Hol
for instance.
> leave Scandinavia solid but the Fatherland vulnerable, so we'll
> probably want to focus on Kie and Mun first. If we try Hol S
> Bur-Ruh, Ber S Hol-Kie, at least one of those moves will succeed.
Hol S Bur-Ruh won't work, Hol's a fleet that can't support inland.
Oh, I guess you mean Bel. Yeah, that looks good if you do mean
Bel. I'll order Hol - Kie supported by Berlin.
> We might as well also do Nwg S Nth (I'd rather not risk Nth),
> Nth S StP-Nwy, Pru-Sil. What do you think?
Also looks good, might as well try for Scandanavia though I doubt
it will work and Pru-Sil seems obvious enough.
> I told Raine I will move Spa-MAO, MAO-Eng. I'm debating whether
> I should actually do so or just go for Tun. I'd like to take Tun,
> but if you believe that you will have success against Italy in
> the east then it might not be urgent for me to immediately
> hit him in the west. What do you think my priorities should be?
Italy says that he's going to leave himself open to attack from
you, I certainly don't think he'll be able to do anything about
it if you don't back off. Kieth is saying that he expects Italy
to continue to fight him and even to lose supply centers though
he says he'll try to organise it so that I take the supply centers
from Austria rather than having Italy do so in return for my attacking
Italy. That's cool since I was attacking Italy anyway!
> The best move against G is probably B A Par, Par-Bur, MAO-Eng,
> then I can do Eng S Nth to free Nwg for other duties in the Fall.
> Or if you think Raine is our major hurdle I can go for Tun.
I don't think Raine will be much of a problem, whether this is
a reason to take Tunis or a reason to delay and concentrate on
Germany is a different question. The German battle looks like
we have enough units there to win it to me, possibly a fleet
in StP later on and it might be worth one extra French unit
at some point too but I don't see any rush and a convoy from
England to the mainland might be just as useful as an extra
unit.
> Italy has more centers right now, but Steve is the better
> player, and my first inclination is to string Raine along
> a little more rather than risk letting Germany off the hook.
> What are your feelings on this?
Steve is a better player, but Steve has clearly lost interest
or motivation or time or something - he's barely writing any
press at all and he's in a bad way. As you pointed out, his
home centers are vunerable and when he has to disband the rest
of his centers will collapse. I don't honestly believe either
Raine is going to be much hassle to you or that Steve will be
let off the hook whichever move you decide on. You'll look
less threatening for the solo if you leave Italy alone for
a while, but that kind of smoke-and-mirrors probably won't
wash with this crowd anyway.
Adam..........
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:19 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
Ah, our mail seems to have crossed in transit.
> It appears that the deadline is tonight already. What do you think
> of Bel S Bur-Ruh, Par-Bur, Ber S Hol-Kie, Pru-Sil, Nth S StP-Nwy?
I agreed to these moves and will enter my part of them shortly.
Adam........
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:21 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
Repost: I didn't get a reply from the judge when I sent this,
and your press seems to indicate you didn't get it either. I
have to sort my email out one of these days.
> Could be, but hopefully you're increasing your own chances as well. :-)
Yeah, but the bookies favourite right now has to be France.
> Definitely. I was thinking that if Raine expects Arm-Ank and
> does Bla-Ank to bounce, Sev-Bla and a supported attack on Smy
> would be quite fruitful.
Looks fairly good, though I have to finish talking to Austria about
supports and whatnot, he has F Eas remember, and A Rum/A Ser play
quite a roll in this fight too.
> Sounds good, but I think it's better to devise the best possible
> attack then juggle centers if things look inequitable than to fix
> the fate of the centers before we know how we're going to get there.
I guess that's true, I think I was just checking that we
agreed on a 50/50 split of what's left. The problem with
this see-who-gets-there approach of course is that we're
going to need a solid and easily defended line between us
at some point. I'm not really sure what that line would look
like off hand but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have
French in Bel and Mun and Kie and Den while I was in Hol
for instance.
> leave Scandinavia solid but the Fatherland vulnerable, so we'll
> probably want to focus on Kie and Mun first. If we try Hol S
> Bur-Ruh, Ber S Hol-Kie, at least one of those moves will succeed.
Hol S Bur-Ruh won't work, Hol's a fleet that can't support inland.
Oh, I guess you mean Bel. Yeah, that looks good if you do mean
Bel. I'll order Hol - Kie supported by Berlin.
> We might as well also do Nwg S Nth (I'd rather not risk Nth),
> Nth S StP-Nwy, Pru-Sil. What do you think?
Also looks good, might as well try for Scandanavia though I doubt
it will work and Pru-Sil seems obvious enough.
> I told Raine I will move Spa-MAO, MAO-Eng. I'm debating whether
> I should actually do so or just go for Tun. I'd like to take Tun,
> but if you believe that you will have success against Italy in
> the east then it might not be urgent for me to immediately
> hit him in the west. What do you think my priorities should be?
Italy says that he's going to leave himself open to attack from
you, I certainly don't think he'll be able to do anything about
it if you don't back off. Kieth is saying that he expects Italy
to continue to fight him and even to lose supply centers though
he says he'll try to organise it so that I take the supply centers
from Austria rather than having Italy do so in return for my attacking
Italy. That's cool since I was attacking Italy anyway!
> The best move against G is probably B A Par, Par-Bur, MAO-Eng,
> then I can do Eng S Nth to free Nwg for other duties in the Fall.
> Or if you think Raine is our major hurdle I can go for Tun.
I don't think Raine will be much of a problem, whether this is
a reason to take Tunis or a reason to delay and concentrate on
Germany is a different question. The German battle looks like
we have enough units there to win it to me, possibly a fleet
in StP later on and it might be worth one extra French unit
at some point too but I don't see any rush and a convoy from
England to the mainland might be just as useful as an extra
unit.
> Italy has more centers right now, but Steve is the better
> player, and my first inclination is to string Raine along
> a little more rather than risk letting Germany off the hook.
> What are your feelings on this?
Steve is a better player, but Steve has clearly lost interest
or motivation or time or something - he's barely writing any
press at all and he's in a bad way. As you pointed out, his
home centers are vunerable and when he has to disband the rest
of his centers will collapse. I don't honestly believe either
Raine is going to be much hassle to you or that Steve will be
let off the hook whichever move you decide on. You'll look
less threatening for the solo if you leave Italy alone for
a while, but that kind of smoke-and-mirrors probably won't
wash with this crowd anyway.
Adam..........
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:22 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hummm, looks like I've sent you stuff that should have gone
to France as well. No harm done though I don't think. This
is also a repost since I'm not getting replies from the judge
even though I _AM_ getting press from you, weird.
Sorry for not writing over the weekend, unfortunately I brought
a playstation2 so I didn't move off of the couch the entire time.
Grand Theft Auto3 is the best game I've played in a very long time.
> Hi, I suggest moving Sev-Bla and Arm-Ank. I am guesing Italy might
> expect you to support me to Smy, and he might try to cut your support.
> If he moves Bla-Arm, he would be screwed. Or, you could try Arm-Smy.
> What do you think?
Sev - Bla has to be the move. The question is what to do with Arm.
Options:
* Arm - Ank, possibly bounce with Bla leaving nobody getting anywhere
* Arm - Smy, assuming support from Eas it might work but cut from Ion is easy.
* Arm S Eas - Smy, as you said this could be cut from Bla.
* Arm - Syr, unexpected certainly. Means Bla will probably be Russian
in the fall and Bla will be in Arm or Ank.
I think that Bla is likely to move to Ank to be honest, Italy isn't
a great player and will probably just try to protect his centers
rather than overthinking the whole deal. That leaves us thinking
about Smy, who to support who. There's about equal chance that
either one will be cut I think, and Aeg will try to move to Smy,
surely. I prefer the move where I get the chance at the SC,
Eas S Arm - Smy, but I've really no idea if that stands a better
chance than Arm S Eas - Smy or not. You seemed to think Arm's
support would be cut while Ion will probably want to move to
Aeg in case Aeg - Smy succeds. Certainly Italy tells me he intends
to let France run rampage with the Med and do nothing about
it until I call off my attack.
Which do you prefer and why? Apparently the deadline is tonight,
they seem so short when the weekend takes up most of them.
Adam.............
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:24 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> I think I was just checking that we
> agreed on a 50/50 split of what's left.
Yes, I am in favor of an equitable split.
> we're going to need a solid and easily defended line between us
That's true. I think we can easily work that out as we go.
> might as well try for Scandanavia though I doubt
> it will work
I also doubt it will work, but I can't think of any better use for those units.
> Italy says that he's going to leave himself open to attack from you
Sounds like he can't make up his mind.
> That's cool since I was attacking Italy anyway!
No sense turning down free centers, eh? ;-)
> a convoy from
> England to the mainland might be just as useful as an extra
> unit.
That's an excellent idea! I have been somewhat annoyed about those units sitting
there doing nothing for so long. Perhaps a convoy in the Fall is in order.
> You'll look
> less threatening for the solo if you leave Italy alone for
> a while
Keith seems to want me to attack Italy, but I have to wonder if he'd then change
alliances and try to prop up Italy against me. It might just be a ploy to give him
an excuse to organize an anti-French campaign.
If I were certain to get Tun this year it would probably be worth going for it, but
Raine now claims that he intends to defend it. (He has employed his usual tactic
of agreeing to something then proposing addenda more in his favor.) Regardless, I have
decided to at least maintain a presence in Spa.
> I agreed to these moves and will enter my part of them shortly.
OK. I have now entered my orders as well.
Rod
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:29 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
I encourage you to move against Italy now. The situation in the East is
looking grave. I can't really prevent Italy from taking Trieste if he
tried in ernest. It is unclear whether Russia and I will be able to keep
and hold any territory in Turkey this year, although I think by next
year, if my fleet is not destroyed, there will have been enough chances
to outguess Italy there. But even if we can make any progress there, it
certainly won't be enough to outweigh the damage to my home centers.
I just need you to give a nudge to Italy. That should be enough. Then I
will need to start worrying about Russia. I don't want to see him
getting a number of army builds any time soon.
Austria
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:31 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Are you interested in coordinating a move with me right now, or do you
want to wait until the Fall moves?
Austria
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:32 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi, I think Italy is going to convoy his army in Naples somewhere. WHy
else would he build it in naples rather than in Rome? So, I think Ion
won't move to Eas but will instead be involved in the convoy.
He might try convoying Nap-Smy, but I suspect he would be more likely to
try to convoy Nap-Alb. He will also move Apu-Adr to be sure of taking
Trieste in the Fall.
As for what he will do about Turkey, I don't know. Aeg-Smy and Bla-Ank
would be the simplest. You think he will just do that? If so, then it
doesn't matter which one of us supports the other.
I need a supply center of course, but I'm more keen on getting Bulgaria
rather than the Turkish centers. Can you help me there? Esepcially if
Smy-Bla succeeded.
Austria
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:33 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Hi, I think Italy is going to convoy his army in Naples somewhere. WHy
> else would he build it in naples rather than in Rome? So, I think Ion
> won't move to Eas but will instead be involved in the convoy.
This is good thinking, I hadn't really considered the build at
all. If this is true then the Eas support won't be cut so supporting
me into Smy would make most sense since the Bla move would be
a coin-toss for both me and Italy. I'll enter the Arm - Smy move
now.
> I need a supply center of course, but I'm more keen on getting Bulgaria
> rather than the Turkish centers. Can you help me there? Esepcially if
> Smy-Bla succeeded.
As I've already said, I'll do what I can to help you out,
if it seems that I'm going to get a center from Turkey then
any units not involved in getting/keeping that center can
help you get Bul no problem.
Adam........
From - Mon Jan 14 21:22:36 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Okay, I'll order the support. I don't think it will work, though.
Austria
From - Tue Jan 15 19:24:05 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Good morning!
> Are you interested in coordinating a move with me right now, or do you
> want to wait until the Fall moves?
I would be interested in coodinating the moves. I am afraid we don't have
the time (unless Germany is late).
Russia tells me that you think I'll attack you. I don't know about your
negotiation tactics but like I said I assume you won't believe me. So I
ask you to make moves where you can still make friends with me.
About Sevastopol: It is yours. That way we can make a safe border between
us. I'd like to keep Bul. I am intenting to put a fleet in SC (in fall).
If I have a fleet in Greece too that should give you a chance to leave
Serbia and Rumania empty (yes I'll move away from Black Sea eventually).
Raine
From - Tue Jan 15 19:24:07 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> I don't know what moves you do *not* want me to make this turn, but rest
> assured that if my fleet manages to move anywhere, the effects are
> certainly reversible. I think my moves will please you.
Well at first I was afraid of you supporting Russia into Smyrna. But after
a second thought I noticed it is not a problem _if_ you are working with
me and not against me.
Raine
From - Tue Jan 15 19:24:08 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> > Russian solo?
...
> I didn't say it was likely.
It isn't :-)
> > FIR?
...
> You wouldn't have to be happy, just like it better than a
> French solo.
I might be wrong but I would say that it is highly likely that gutsy will
end to F solo or 3way draw between FI and A or R. I don't care if it is
you or Keith. Keith seems to be more co-operative. Then I can work with
him if you don't care of my happiness.
> > FAR?
...
> I have one southern fleet now, if I built another one for every
> Turkish center I could have four, plus Austria's fleet. How
> many would we need to get an FAR?
Good luck :-) You'll need it.
> Not that any of these are really high on my list of objectives
> at the moment, I figure we're barely into the middlegame yet
> and I'm certainly not a good enough player to be worrying about
> the endgame right now in anything other than a very abstract
> sense. So far as I can see right now, Germany is more or less
> taken care of and isn't writing enough to change that. I will
> have to build a line against France in the north pretty soon.
> My choice right now seems to be aim for a three way RIF or
> keep things open and flexible in the hope that the chances of
> a solo arise but also keep in mind that the three way isn't
> ruled out.
I would say that we have very accurate views of the future now. Even if we
are not in end game, yet.
> > Seriously, I like your idea of FIR.
>
> I think you suggested it first, but the board suggests it
> itself basically.
Yes, I don't remember who said first and what but the board is telling us
the same thing.
> > Co-operate with me:
> > We take Austria out and you take Germany out with France. Still you lose
> > the battle in North. Your chance was to build there but you aren't able to
> > do it anymore.
>
> So either I attack you, and eventually settle for FRI draw, or
> I attack Austria and actually aim for an FRI draw? So long as
> the draw isn't ruled out I don't see how deliberately trying to
> get the draw rather than keeping the game open helps me any.
And there's the 3rd alternative where you are replaced my Austria in 3way
considerations. I said, I don't like your way of thinking Italy as a minor
power. You seem to keep that opinion. Then I start to look other
alternatives. I know that Keith is desperate. He knows he cannot survive
my attack.
I'd would like to go faster towards FIR but I have no problems getting a
bit slower to FIA (especially if it is more co-operative one).
Raine
From - Tue Jan 15 19:24:09 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
I think things will work out fine this turn.
By the way, I intercepted a communication between France and Russia
(Russia accidently sent it to me, twice). Quite interesting. I am
certain we're doing the right thing.
Austria
From - Tue Jan 15 19:24:10 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
You just made me curious :-)
> I think things will work out fine this turn.
Let's hope everything goes fine with AI (don't care the others much :-) .
> By the way, I intercepted a communication between France and Russia
> (Russia accidently sent it to me, twice). Quite interesting. I am
> certain we're doing the right thing.
Would you like to share it with me ?
I didn't get reply from Steve to my mail where I asked him to tell me what
he prefers a) Tyr S Mun b) Tyr S Ruh-Mun. :-( I told that I have Tyr S Mun
in to Steve so I he knows that it is there if he likes to use it.
BTW, I told Adam that I don't like his 3way idea where FRI share a draw
and Italy is the minor power there. I told him that I'd rather have a 3way
where there is co-operation rather than talks of minor powers. I told him
that I don't care if it is Austria or Russia that is with FI but Austria
is my favourite 'cause he hasn't threatened to make me minor power :-)
Now you know what I have talked with Adam. That should give you some
grounds to interpret his diploming lately.
Please, share your interesting info with me :-)
Raine
From - Tue Jan 15 19:24:14 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Please, share your interesting info with me :-)
Oh, I shouldn't have said anything. Hold on, I will send it to you as
soon as the moves results are in.
Austria
From - Tue Jan 15 19:24:17 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Oh, I shouldn't have said anything. Hold on, I will send it to you as
> soon as the moves results are in.
Mom! Keith is not telling me what I want to hear !!! :-)
I am looking forward to hear what you have to say.
Raine
From - Wed Jan 16 16:52:09 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
I forgot to mention, it is fine if you keep Bulgaria. My concern is only
your having an army there. As you mentioned, a fleet on the South coast
would do wonders for our relationship.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 16 16:52:39 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> I forgot to mention, it is fine if you keep Bulgaria. My concern is only
> your having an army there. As you mentioned, a fleet on the South coast
> would do wonders for our relationship.
Then we are on the right track. I am tired of waiting the moves :-( Could
you reveal the secrets of FR communication :-)
BTW, if I had received a letter like above from you earlier in the game I
would have been very cautious of your moves. I mean, it sounds like you
are trying to get me on a good mood (there's nothing wrong with
that :-) but in Diplomacy you get nervous when someone tries to
talk _short_ nice little chatting). Well, I suspect that you won't
believe my goodwill untill I show it to you. I try to be as honest as
possible. That's why I share my feelings with you.
Raine
From - Wed Jan 16 16:52:46 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> OK. I'm glad that we have reached agreement. :-) A wide DMZ is good,
> but the trick is coordinating our withdrawals so neither of us feels
> nervous.
Yes, I tried to get you believe that I am serious of FI alliance and made
those moves to east quickly. Now I noticed that I let you a chance to get
Tunis. So, I hope you don't mind if I either convoy my army in there or
move fleet in there. After you move Mao-Eng we can easily make the planned
DMZ, I can move either Tunis or Ion east while you move Spa-Mao.
I hate it when I need to do things in a hurry :-( So, I hope you didn't
feel bad of my short last note. I usually don't like if people have better
things to do than diplome with me :-)
Raine
From - Wed Jan 16 16:52:52 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> > I forgot to mention, it is fine if you keep Bulgaria. My concern is only
> > your having an army there. As you mentioned, a fleet on the South coast
> > would do wonders for our relationship.
>
> Then we are on the right track. I am tired of waiting the moves :-( Could
> you reveal the secrets of FR communication :-)
There is no bombshell in there. It gives some insight into the
relationship between France and Russia, and also some speculation about
what France might do. I don't want to send it to you, because if you
were to pass on the content, it might cause some alarm.
> BTW, if I had received a letter like above from you earlier in the game I
> would have been very cautious of your moves. I mean, it sounds like you
> are trying to get me on a good mood (there's nothing wrong with
> that :-) but in Diplomacy you get nervous when someone tries to
> talk _short_ nice little chatting). Well, I suspect that you won't
> believe my goodwill untill I show it to you. I try to be as honest as
> possible. That's why I share my feelings with you.
That is exactly right. It sounds like everything is on track for the
moves, and I was trying to re-assure you. You have nothing to worry
about from me (what could I do against you anyway), but I am afraid that
France is still working on you and that you might decide not to defend
against him in the end. I just get nervous during these delay periods.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 16 16:52:53 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> There is no bombshell in there. It gives some insight into the
> relationship between France and Russia, and also some speculation about
> what France might do. I don't want to send it to you, because if you
> were to pass on the content, it might cause some alarm.
Oh, I don't want you to forward the message itself that would be
unethical but you could tell me the info in there if you like. I
understand that you want to tell it after the moves, no problem.
> against him in the end. I just get nervous during these delay periods.
Me too. Do you know what is the reasong for Steve's behaviour?
Raine
From - Wed Jan 16 16:52:55 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> I hope you don't mind if I either convoy my army in there or
> move fleet in there.
No problem.
> After you move Mao-Eng we can easily make the planned
> DMZ, I can move either Tunis or Ion east while you move Spa-Mao.
That sounds good. I think it's better to establish the DMZ at a comfortable pace
than to be overly hasty and anxious.
> I hate it when I need to do things in a hurry :-(
Well, it seems Germany has given us some extra time. :-)
Rod
From - Wed Jan 16 16:52:57 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Oh, I don't want you to forward the message itself that would be
> unethical but you could tell me the info in there if you like. I
> understand that you want to tell it after the moves, no problem.
I don't think letter passing is unethical. In fact I assume that all of
the messages I send could potentially be forwarded. I myself only do it
in extreme circumstances, but since the letter was accidently sent to me,
I have no problem sending it to you in its entirety.
> > against him in the end. I just get nervous during these delay periods.
>
> Me too. Do you know what is the reasong for Steve's behaviour?
For some reason, some people get less interested in a game when it
becomes clear to them that they are not going to survive it. I actually
think Germany has a chance, and I've told him so. It would take quite a
bit of work to get rid of France, but I think it should be our goal.
There's nothing better than rooting for the underdog. Russia won't pose
a threat after this Fall, I'd imagine.
Austria
From - Thu Jan 17 19:28:04 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> For some reason, some people get less interested in a game when it
> becomes clear to them that they are not going to survive it. I actually
> think Germany has a chance, and I've told him so. It would take quite a
> bit of work to get rid of France, but I think it should be our goal.
> There's nothing better than rooting for the underdog. Russia won't pose
> a threat after this Fall, I'd imagine.
Steve mentioned something about family illness to me. I do hope he'll
return.
I am ready to start the press between you and Steve (or new Germany) to
make AGI work together. I believe that we could achieve more reliability
if we talk between three of us. What do you think about this? I already
have support to Mun hold in there. That should be a good start.
While we are waiting for Steve we could talk about future AGI:
-centers in east: You should have all the Russian centers
-I don't need any more centers in east
-when I start to get centers from France(it will take some time though) i
can give Bulgaria and Greece to you if you want to.
-maybe we should keep Tyrolia and Bohemia occupied 'cause Germany needs
our help. I understand that this will be a bit problematic but we should
get over it. If you can take center(s) from Russia there should be less
need for supporting Germany.
Raine
From - Thu Jan 17 19:28:06 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Steve mentioned something about family illness to me. I do hope he'll
> return.
Oh, I'm a cynic, I guess. I hope he's okay.
> I am ready to start the press between you and Steve (or new Germany) to
> make AGI work together. I believe that we could achieve more reliability
> if we talk between three of us. What do you think about this? I already
> have support to Mun hold in there. That should be a good start.
We can do that, if you want. I'm not big on three-way conversations,
though. I always feel like the real details are being discussed two-way.
> While we are waiting for Steve we could talk about future AGI:
> -centers in east: You should have all the Russian centers
> -I don't need any more centers in east
> -when I start to get centers from France(it will take some time though) i
> can give Bulgaria and Greece to you if you want to.
> -maybe we should keep Tyrolia and Bohemia occupied 'cause Germany needs
> our help. I understand that this will be a bit problematic but we should
> get over it. If you can take center(s) from Russia there should be less
> need for supporting Germany.
That looks fine to me. I am willing to move all of my armies north once
I don't feel like I need to defend my home centers.
Have you just sent one of those nervous stab-premonition messages you were
referring to?
Austria
From - Tue Jan 22 20:03:12 2002
tim at 9oakhill.com has taken over the abandoned
Germany in game 'gutsy'.
Deadline for 'gutsy' advanced to Sat Jan 26 2002 20:00:00 +1300.
Grace period for 'gutsy' advanced to Tue Jan 29 2002 19:00:00 +1300.
From - Tue Jan 22 20:03:15 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Tim,
Welcome to gutsy! Thanks for taking over the german position.
Let me introduce myself:
My name is Raine Karjalainen and I live in Finland. English is not my
native language. So try to understand me :-) I'd appreciate it a lot if
you could correct my language if you see an error.
Situation in gutsy:
It seems to me that France and Russia are determined to attack you. At
least they have been for some time. France is obviously the solo threat at
the moment. Russia won't be able to defend in north (my opinion of
course).
Russia and Austria seem to be working against me in south. We had a good
co-operation with Keith (austria) but we ran in to troubles when it was
time to remove the Austrian fleet.
In early days of gutsy I tried to talk AGI triple alliance. I even send
some common mail between germany and austria. It never formed into
fruitful alliance. Germany was allied with France and he thought it is
better that way. I'd like to say to you that I am open to AGI again. I
think it is THE way to stop France from getting ballistic. I have asked
Keith to think about AGI but we have still some unfinished business in
south :-) If AI can make peace in south I am the first to suggest AGI
triple alliance to prevent French solo.
I have in my orders Tyr S Mun hold. I can change it for Tyr S Ruh-Mun if
you like it better.
The previous Germany (Steve) was silent for a very long time before he
went abandoned. I got only a few messages from him in last 5 game years.
I hope we can talk more often now.
Raine as Italy
From - Tue Jan 22 20:03:18 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
>Welcome to gutsy!
Thanks, Raine. I'm Tim and I live in Maine in the US. I'm a stay at home
Dad with two kids: Zoe is 5 and Adam is 3. Since I'm home with the kids, I
tend to have a lot of time to keep up with my e-mail correspondence; I
expect to be much more communicative than what you suggest was the old
German's habit.
>Situation in gutsy:
>It seems to me that France and Russia are determined to attack you. At
>least they have been for some time. France is obviously the solo threat at
>the moment. Russia won't be able to defend in north (my opinion of
>course).
Yes, it looks to me like my first priority should be trying to break up the
R/F alliance. As you say, Russia will find himself unable to defend
against France in the north if they continue their cooperation and knock me
out. I'm not sure the AGI that you suggest is the way to go, perhaps IRG
would make more sense. But, I'm sure you have a better feel for the
players and know that IRG would not be workable.
>I have in my orders Tyr S Mun hold. I can change it for Tyr S Ruh-Mun if
>you like it better.
I'll get back to you after I've spoken with France and Russia. I think
Russia is the key. Anything you can tell me about him would be of use.
Tim
From - Tue Jan 22 20:03:20 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hello,
My name is Tim and I am the new German leader. It looks to me like I have
recently come under attack from you and France. It also looks to me like
attacking me is a bad idea for Russia -- France will end up with a free
ride through Scandinavia after I am gone. I imagine your decisions have
been based in large part on the lack of communication from the previous
German leader. And, I hope we can reconcile our differences and work to
stop the French advance. While France may not be a serious solo threat, he
is a threat to take a 17 center western stalemate position. I'd like to be
able to stop him short in Scandinavia and Germany (it looks like we could
hold our position if we cooperate) and then work with either Italy or
Austria to push him back.
Since I have just taken over, I may be overlooking personality conflicts or
previous disagreements that will be an obstacle to what I suggest. If you
could help fill in those details, I would be grateful.
Tim
From - Tue Jan 22 20:03:24 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hello,
I'm not quite sure what to say -- it looks very much like France and
Germany are sworn enemies. Is that more a result of the previous German
leader's non-communication or of the board position? If I were you and I
had Russian cooperation, I would certainly continue attacking me. It
doesn't look like Russia will be able to build a strong enough military in
the north to prevent you from taking all of Scandinavia after I am gone.
Of course, I'd like to see you focus your efforts elsewhere, but with all
those German fleets sailing around the northern waters, it might not be
wise for you to shift your units. If I've overlooked something and there
is a chance we can work together, please let me know.
Tim
From - Tue Jan 22 20:03:26 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi,
I'm just getting up to speed on the situation in Gutsy. Anything you can
add that will help me understand the players involved would be much
appreciated.
Italy has already raised the F/R alarm. But, it looks to me like the real
danger may be an I/F. What do you think?
Tim
From - Tue Jan 22 20:03:29 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Tim,
I am 6 years younger than you. I don't have kids. I have been living
together with my girlfriend for couple of years. We are not engaged. Is
there a term for couple who live together but they are not a married
couple?
I am doing my PhD in astronomy. My PhD is scheduled to be ready in 2004,
who knows if it _will_ be ready then :-) The more I play diplomacy the
longer it will take I assume. Anyway, my special field is planetary rings.
> out. I'm not sure the AGI that you suggest is the way to go, perhaps IRG
> would make more sense. But, I'm sure you have a better feel for the
> players and know that IRG would not be workable.
IRG is workable. IRG is as possible as AGI. I'd prefer the latter due to
relations I have formed in this game. I mean, Keith is a very good
tactician (way better than I am) and Adam has spoken of unrealistic future
plans. The good thing in IRG would be that France should be hold of
easier.
> I'll get back to you after I've spoken with France and Russia. I think
> Russia is the key. Anything you can tell me about him would be of use.
Ok, I'll keep it Tyr S Mun. Still, I hope you let me know what you want me
to do with it.
Raine
From - Tue Jan 22 20:03:31 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> My name is Tim and I am the new German leader.
Hello Tim, you've taken over at a tricky time for he Germans,
I've had to send in my own troops to restore order in Berlin
and the defensive position doesn't look too strong.
> It looks to me like I have
> recently come under attack from you and France.
Yeah, wasn't an easy decision, we weren't sure that Austria
and Italy would start to fight but Kieth (Austria) convinced
us that they would and it seems he was right.
> It also looks to me like
> attacking me is a bad idea for Russia -- France will end up with a free
> ride through Scandinavia after I am gone.
It's not easy to build a defence that can last over there, no.
> I imagine your decisions have
> been based in large part on the lack of communication from the previous
> German leader.
They were, he was very quiet for quite some time which was a
shame since each communication I recieved from both him and
Austria convinced me that the opposing position of each
country was the correct one. Austria's comments outnumbering
the German ones is basically what tipped the balance in
the end.
> And, I hope we can reconcile our differences and work to
> stop the French advance. While France may not be a serious solo threat, he
> is a threat to take a 17 center western stalemate position. I'd like to be
> able to stop him short in Scandinavia and Germany (it looks like we could
> hold our position if we cooperate) and then work with either Italy or
> Austria to push him back.
I think he's a pretty good bet on the solo to be honest. Nine now
plus Hol, Mun, Kie, Nwy, Swe, Den, Ber, StP is presumably what
you are talking about, whereas I think Tunis and parts of
Italy are likely to be French before too long too. The problem
I have is that I don't see how having German units in Nwy,
Swe and Den would be any more defensible than having Russian
units in those places. Even German help wouldn't mean I got
to keep Hol, Scandanavia is if anything more defensible if
it's just one nation in control from StP through to Den I'd
have thought.
> Since I have just taken over, I may be overlooking personality conflicts or
> previous disagreements that will be an obstacle to what I suggest. If you
> could help fill in those details, I would be grateful.
I think everyone here is a reasonably good player, nobody is
really likely to let previous disagreement stop them cooperating
if it's good for both parties, especially if there's a new
player in the driving seat. The only player who's been anything
other than completely reasonable the whole game has been
Raine in Italy who tends to be a little single-minded in
his approach, very reluctant to change a plan once he's
started on it which I've personally found a fairly inflexible
stance but it's served him well enough up until now at least
and he's got more centers than I have so he must be doing
Something right.
It's not that I'm unprepared to work with you, I might even
find that a very useful thing to do if we can eliminate the
French solo threat while also allowing me to grow from gains
in the south, I'm just not sure exactly what you are proposing
and how our cooperation would be any more likely to stop the
French 'free ride through Scandanavia' more effectively or
efficently than my trying to ensure that I get the best
position while working with him to take the German centers.
Up until now, certainly, I had very little choice. I hope
you'll prove more inventive than your predesessor since,
as Italy continues to warn me, France is looking very
strong indeed, it would be good to gain an advantage over
him.
Adam...........
From - Tue Jan 22 20:03:32 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
>I am 6 years younger than you. I don't have kids. I have been living
>together with my girlfriend for couple of years. We are not engaged. Is
>there a term for couple who live together but they are not a married
>couple?
Not a term I can think of for the couple. But, there are a few terms for
the person you live with: "Live-in" would tell the story, also "partner"
but there is an implication there that the couple is gay.
>I am doing my PhD in astronomy. My PhD is scheduled to be ready in 2004,
>who knows if it _will_ be ready then :-) The more I play diplomacy the
>longer it will take I assume. Anyway, my special field is planetary rings.
Cool. Most kids, especially boys, are at some point fascinated with space
and I was no different. I recently pointed out Orion to my daughter and
explained that he was a great hunter. She has bad dreams later that night
about Orion coming to hunt her.
>IRG is workable. IRG is as possible as AGI. I'd prefer the latter due to
>relations I have formed in this game. I mean, Keith is a very good
>tactician (way better than I am) and Adam has spoken of unrealistic future
>plans. The good thing in IRG would be that France should be hold of
>easier.
Keith is Austria and Adam is Russia, right? These player characteristics
are something that you will have a whole lot more knowledge of than I will
at this point.
I will get back to you regardless of what I decide to do about Munich.
Tim
From - Tue Jan 22 20:03:35 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> > a convoy from
> > England to the mainland might be just as useful as an extra
> > unit.
>
> That's an excellent idea! I have been somewhat annoyed about those
> units sitting there doing nothing for so long. Perhaps a convoy in
> the Fall is in order.
As mentioned, it would free your fleets up to remain around the
Med and there are several reasons why you'd want that. Firstly
it makes me feel more secure about my gains in Scandanavia
if there are less fleets in the north and secondly it might
get you a vital south-of-the-stalemate-line center in Tunis
which will be important to you I'm sure.
> Keith seems to want me to attack Italy, but I have to wonder
> if he'd then change alliances and try to prop up Italy against me.
> It might just be a ploy to give him an excuse to organize an
> anti-French campaign.
I think Keith is genuinly worried about his own survival. While
he probably would prop up Italy eventually, I don't think he'd
do so until Italy was down to a more manageable size. If
Turkey and Tunis were gone then he'd feel secure enough to
try something like that perhaps, but at the moment he
wants Italy reduced, by any means.
> If I were certain to get Tun this year it would probably be
> worth going for it, but Raine now claims that he intends to
> defend it. (He has employed his usual tactic of agreeing to
> something then proposing addenda more in his favor.)
> Regardless, I have decided to at least maintain a presence in Spa.
It's going to be hard to know what Italy will do. If I were him
I'd be thinking about ensuring I had a position around the
stalemate lines to make me essential to any draw, and he's
said words similar to those in another context himself this
game I'm sure. On the other hand, he's indignently saying to
me now "Help me aim for a FRI draw or I'll throw the game
to France", which sounds like an empty threat but it
depends on how threatened he feels I guess.
> OK. I have now entered my orders as well.
I assume that the arrival of Tim makes no difference to our
plans. I should let you know that I accidentally mailed my
last press to you at Austria as well, and I think it mentioned
potentially dangerous details if it's leaked back to Germany.
This wasn't much of a worry with Steve in the German leadership
seat but it could be now.
Tim has been encouraging me to help put a stop to the French
solo, as you'd expect basically. My line with him has been
that I'm not unconvinced, but I'd need more detail since
nothing he has said would make me believe the French solo
more easily defended against with him than it would be
by taking his centers and doing the defending myself.
This isn't actually that far from the truth, I have
merely understated how hard it would be to convince me.
Adam..........
From - Tue Jan 22 20:03:36 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Tim,
> Not a term I can think of for the couple. But, there are a few terms for
> the person you live with: "Live-in" would tell the story, also "partner"
> but there is an implication there that the couple is gay.
I had no idea that "partner" has some other implications too. This is one
of the good things of Diplomacy, it is a learning experience to me. It is
hard to find those double meanings for words from reading english
books. It is much easier to hear it from native english speaker.
Here in Finland a married couple is 'aviopari' and unmarried couple that
lives together is 'avopari' the words are very similar, 'pari' means a
pair.
> Cool. Most kids, especially boys, are at some point fascinated with space
> and I was no different. I recently pointed out Orion to my daughter and
> explained that he was a great hunter. She has bad dreams later that night
> about Orion coming to hunt her.
:-)
> Keith is Austria and Adam is Russia, right? These player characteristics
> are something that you will have a whole lot more knowledge of than I will
> at this point.
Yes, Keith is Austria and Adam is Russia. Adam is from UK so he has been
on-line at the same time with me more often than others. You said you are
dad at home, I hope it means that you are on-line earlier than others in
US so we can have a quick exchange of messages if it is needed. It is
getting late here and I will stop diploming this night (it is 8.50 PM
here).
This morning the temperature was -28 degrees (Celsius). I live in Oulu
which is in the middle of Finland in south-north direction. The average
temperature is 10 to 20 degrees higher at this time of ther year so it is
not this cold in here normally. What is the weather in Maine?
> I will get back to you regardless of what I decide to do about Munich.
I'll look forward to it.
Raine
From - Tue Jan 22 20:03:38 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Adam,
FLOC.NET (which I rely upon for mapping) appears to be down right now, so
I'm not looking at a map as I type this. Please forgive me if I get some
details wrong. but, for the moment the generalities are the important
part, anywya.
> > And, I hope we can reconcile our differences and work to
> > stop the French advance. While France may not be a serious solo threat, he
> > is a threat to take a 17 center western stalemate position. I'd like to be
> > able to stop him short in Scandinavia and Germany (it looks like we could
> > hold our position if we cooperate) and then work with either Italy or
> > Austria to push him back.
>
>I think he's a pretty good bet on the solo to be honest. Nine now
>plus Hol, Mun, Kie, Nwy, Swe, Den, Ber, StP is presumably what
>you are talking about, whereas I think Tunis and parts of
>Italy are likely to be French before too long too. The problem
>I have is that I don't see how having German units in Nwy,
>Swe and Den would be any more defensible than having Russian
>units in those places. Even German help wouldn't mean I got
>to keep Hol, Scandanavia is if anything more defensible if
>it's just one nation in control from StP through to Den I'd
>have thought.
It is easier for one player to hold all of Scandinavia because there is no
danger of miscommunication leading to fouled orders, that's for
sure. Right now you hold HOL, BER and STP, while I hold NWY, SWE, DEN, KIE
and MUN. I think that should we cooperate we could hold all of those
centers and leave the division 5/3. These are, not coincidentally, the 8
centers you added to France's current collection to get him to 17. The two
of us working together is the surest way to prevent France from threatening
to solo. Maybe when I suggested that France was not a serious solo threat,
I was over estimating our ability to stop him if we are working together.
I think the big difference between Germany and Russia working together and
France and Russia working together is that if you word with me, you will
get to keep your centers, if you work with France, you might make a
temporary gain, but France will be angling to take everything in short time.
> > Since I have just taken over, I may be overlooking personality conflicts or
> > previous disagreements that will be an obstacle to what I suggest. If you
> > could help fill in those details, I would be grateful.
>
>I think everyone here is a reasonably good player, nobody is
>really likely to let previous disagreement stop them cooperating
>if it's good for both parties, especially if there's a new
>player in the driving seat. The only player who's been anything
>other than completely reasonable the whole game has been
>Raine in Italy who tends to be a little single-minded in
>his approach, very reluctant to change a plan once he's
>started on it which I've personally found a fairly inflexible
>stance but it's served him well enough up until now at least
>and he's got more centers than I have so he must be doing
>Something right.
Italy, I think, is important to the effort to stop France. If Italy is
focused on defending against A/R, he will not pay enough attention to an
advancing France. If, on the other hand, Russia and Italy cooperated to
take out Austria, Italy would have the resources available to block France
before he advanced too far into the Mediterranean. Perhaps even before he
locked up a stalemate position.
I think if I were to look at the board without regard to prior moves and
current alliance structure, I would see that France is the biggest threat
and that RIG is the best bet to stop France AND push him back.
Is an RIG alliance something that you could see yourself as part of? Or,
am I overlooking some aspects of the game which make this an unlikely
coalition?
>It's not that I'm unprepared to work with you, I might even
>find that a very useful thing to do if we can eliminate the
>French solo threat while also allowing me to grow from gains
>in the south, I'm just not sure exactly what you are proposing
>and how our cooperation would be any more likely to stop the
>French 'free ride through Scandanavia' more effectively or
>efficently than my trying to ensure that I get the best
>position while working with him to take the German centers.
I think it is inevitable that R/F cooperation will end with France trying
to push on to STP. R/G cooperation would not have to end, certainly not
with a German attempt to get to STP. If we were to cooperate to stop
France where he is and then I were to turn around and fight you, I would
not be advancing my own cause, I would essentially be throwing the game to
France. I think we need each other in the long-term. France only needs
you in the short term.
>Up until now, certainly, I had very little choice. I hope
>you'll prove more inventive than your predesessor since,
>as Italy continues to warn me, France is looking very
>strong indeed, it would be good to gain an advantage over
>him.
That would be my goal.
Tim
From - Tue Jan 22 20:03:42 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
>Yes, Keith is Austria and Adam is Russia. Adam is from UK so he has been
>on-line at the same time with me more often than others. You said you are
>dad at home, I hope it means that you are on-line earlier than others in
>US so we can have a quick exchange of messages if it is needed. It is
>getting late here and I will stop diploming this night (it is 8.50 PM
>here).
I usually check my e-mail for the first time between 8 and 9 AM. And, for
the last time between 11 PM and midnight.
>This morning the temperature was -28 degrees (Celsius). I live in Oulu
>which is in the middle of Finland in south-north direction. The average
>temperature is 10 to 20 degrees higher at this time of ther year so it is
>not this cold in here normally. What is the weather in Maine?
Right now it is beautiful: sunny and in the high 20's (Fahrenheit). It
snowed 3-4 inches yesterday afternoon and evening -- light fluffy snow. I
suppose this is typical of January weather in this part of Maine. The
forecast calls for temperatures in the 50s later this week, though.
Tim
From - Tue Jan 22 20:03:44 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
I see that you have sent me a message, but I have not read it yet.
Here's the deal. France and Russia are obviously attacking Germany.
Italy was attacking me, but I think Italy and I have worked out a deal.
Hopefully Italy is going to move against France this turn, and if he
does, I will work with him against Russia, which will take the pressure
off you. Please do not share this information with Russia or France.
Our ideal ending (or at least mine) is AGI.
If Italy does not protect Tunis this turn, then I think that France will win.
Italy is willing to support you in Munich with Tyrolia (or yoru move
Ruhr-Mun if you want to do that).
Austria
From - Tue Jan 22 20:03:45 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
I've told the new Germany that you have agreed to support him, and that
if you defended against France this turn, we would take care of Russia in
the Fall so he wouldn't need to worry about him after that.
Austria
From - Tue Jan 22 20:03:47 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Here's the deal. France and Russia are obviously attacking Germany.
>Italy was attacking me, but I think Italy and I have worked out a deal.
Italy has not come out and said he will be working with you, but his notes
have had a pro-Austria slant.
>Hopefully Italy is going to move against France this turn, and if he
>does, I will work with him against Russia, which will take the pressure
>off you. Please do not share this information with Russia or France.
>
>Our ideal ending (or at least mine) is AGI.
>
>If Italy does not protect Tunis this turn, then I think that France will win.
>
>Italy is willing to support you in Munich with Tyrolia (or yoru move
>Ruhr-Mun if you want to do that).
Yes, he has told me as much. I'll be honest, I think that tactically an
IGR would work better than an IGA. But, I also sense that Russia and Italy
would have troubles working with each other from a personality
standpoint. I had hoped to convince Russia to switch sides and work with
me against France. But, assuming it is IGA vs RF what do you think would
be my best course of action? I can't hold onto what I have against RF, but
I might be able to pull back and take a center from Russia while not losing
too much. (I don't have the map in front of me and FLOC.NET is down so I
don't have ready access to a map, so please forgive me if I am being vague
or simply wrong.) Retreating seems so negative, though.
Tim
From - Tue Jan 22 20:53:12 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Yes, he has told me as much. I'll be honest, I think that tactically an
> IGR would work better than an IGA. But, I also sense that Russia and Italy
> would have troubles working with each other from a personality
> standpoint. I had hoped to convince Russia to switch sides and work with
> me against France. But, assuming it is IGA vs RF what do you think would
> be my best course of action? I can't hold onto what I have against RF, but
> I might be able to pull back and take a center from Russia while not losing
> too much. (I don't have the map in front of me and FLOC.NET is down so I
> don't have ready access to a map, so please forgive me if I am being vague
> or simply wrong.) Retreating seems so negative, though.
I have Russia on my side, and I will until Italy retreats to attack
France. I will help Russia get Italian centers in Turkey, and I will
make sure that Russia gets my centers before Italy does.
What is your best course of action? Hold on a turn or two. You might
want to move Ruh-Mun with Italy's support. Then you can use Munich to
move to Berlin or Sil. You should be able to hold out in Scandinavia.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 23 18:05:00 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
>I have Russia on my side, and I will until Italy retreats to attack
>France. I will help Russia get Italian centers in Turkey, and I will
>make sure that Russia gets my centers before Italy does.
I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you saying that your leverage with
Italy is that you will help Russia to Turkish and Austrian centers if he
does not cooperate? Or, that your agreement with Italy is only of a
temporary nature and as soon as Italy faces France, you will turn on him?
>What is your best course of action? Hold on a turn or two. You might
>want to move Ruh-Mun with Italy's support. Then you can use Munich to
>move to Berlin or Sil. You should be able to hold out in Scandinavia.
It doesn't sound like Scandinavia is going to be the critical area. If you
and Italy are going to attack Russia, France will have his way with me and
advance to STP. SO, I should get to WAR/MOS where I can help France win if
I am not to be included in the draw. You (A and I) won't need me.
If you are sticking with Russia, then I can make myself useful in
Scandinavia. But, I will likely be squeezed out of any draw once France is
stopped.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 23 18:04:59 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hello again,
Maybe my best bet is to help you advance to the stalemate line as fast as
possible while getting myself into position on the other side. That way I
would be in position to throw the game to you if the other survivors were
not willing to include me in the draw.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 23 18:04:50 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> I assume that the arrival of Tim makes no difference to our
> plans.
I don't quite remember exactly what our plan is anymore, but I know that
I entered my orders a long time ago and have no intention of changing
them. :-)
> I should let you know that I accidentally mailed my
> last press to you at Austria as well, and I think it mentioned
> potentially dangerous details if it's leaked back to Germany.
> This wasn't much of a worry with Steve in the German leadership
> seat but it could be now.
It might slow us down a little, but I think we'll eventually prevail
regardless.
> Tim has been encouraging me to help put a stop to the French
> solo, as you'd expect basically.
Of course. :-) Thanks for the update. In his message to me, he seems
resigned to F/G strife.
> This isn't actually that far from the truth, I have
> merely understated how hard it would be to convince me.
There's a certain perverse pleasure in deceiving people by telling them
the truth. ;-)
Rod
From - Wed Jan 23 18:04:47 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
Thanks for joining us! I have no idea what happened to the previous
German player. It will be nice to get the game going again, though I
did enjoy the respite. :-)
> it looks very much like France and Germany are sworn enemies.
Actually, your predecessor and I got along very well, and worked
together for most of game. It was FGR vs AI for a while, but it got to
a point where we were unlikely to make any more progress, and I feared
that if I committed everything to the Med then Germany would make a run
for a solo. Russia and I decided to stab him basically because we
didn't really have any other options.
> If I were you and I
> had Russian cooperation, I would certainly continue attacking me.
Yeah, I've committed a lot of forces to the north, and I suppose my best
bet is to go ahead and grab whatever centers I can get from you. Still,
I'd be very happy to make alternate arrangements with you if they would
benefit me more than my current course.
> If I've overlooked something and there
> is a chance we can work together, please let me know.
Unfortunately, the automated online mapper seems to be down right now,
so I don't have easy access to a map that I can study and see if I have
any ideas.
> Maybe my best bet is to help you advance to the stalemate line as fast as
> possible while getting myself into position on the other side. That way I
> would be in position to throw the game to you if the other survivors were
> not willing to include me in the draw.
Well, I'm always happy to accept a win by any means. :-) And I think
you're right that a dwindling power has better chances on the stalemate
line. I'm not sure whether I'd want to tip my hand to Russia with overt
F/G cooperation at this time, but if you'd like to simply throw all your
forces east while serendipitously making things easy for me in the west,
I won't complain. ;-)
Rod
From - Wed Jan 23 18:05:02 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you saying that your leverage with
> Italy is that you will help Russia to Turkish and Austrian centers if he
> does not cooperate? Or, that your agreement with Italy is only of a
> temporary nature and as soon as Italy faces France, you will turn on him?
If I can be as much of a nuisance as possible before being eliminated,
then France will win the game. This is the leverage I have against Italy.
You should see that if France takes Tunis, he will win. Russia won't be
able to hold out in the North against France in the long run. Italy sees
this, I think, and this is why he is deciding to turn around this turn.
If he does not, he will lose. We will all lose.
I am not planning to turn against Italy. My best possible outcome for
this game now is a three-way draw, and I expect to play for that. If I
attack Italy, France wins.
Now, your only hope is that Italy attacks France and that I attack Russia
(with Italy's help). Otherwise, you quickly get squashed in between
France and Russia. Hopefully you will remain viable with help from Italy
and I, and you and Italy can begin to push back France.
The other German player seemed to lose interest when France and Russia
turned against him (there may have been other problems to). Before Italy
attacked me, we had been trying to promote AGI, but Germany never
responded. This seems like your best chance for survival. What do you
think?
> It doesn't sound like Scandinavia is going to be the critical area. If you
> and Italy are going to attack Russia, France will have his way with me and
> advance to STP. SO, I should get to WAR/MOS where I can help France win if
> I am not to be included in the draw. You (A and I) won't need me.
I think that is a losing strategy. If you make it to War and Mos (and I
can certainly try to help you if that's what you decide you want to do),
then you are stuck there. It is true you may be able to threaten to throw
the game to France if Italy or I tried to take War and Mos from you, but
it seems like that never works out in the end. France would merely
retreat from the line and you'd be taken from behind at some point.
> If you are sticking with Russia, then I can make myself useful in
> Scandinavia. But, I will likely be squeezed out of any draw once France is
> stopped.
If you keep your Scandinavian fleets you will be useful against France.
France won't have enough fleets to combat both you and Italy at the same
time. I think you need to make a stand in Munich, at least. That is a
critical stalemate center, too.
The best way to survive is to make sure that someone else gets squeezed
out an not you.
I don't know if you're seeing the game in the same way I am, but France
is awfully close to winning this. If I am at war with Italy, France will
be able to get Italian centers, and that's it. I think even if France
just gets Tunis, he will win. The rest of the centers are not defensible
if Italy and Austria are fighting.
I don't understand why you want me to stick with Russia. He is the one
that is threatening all of your supply centers.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 23 18:04:52 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
>If you keep your Scandinavian fleets you will be useful against France.
>France won't have enough fleets to combat both you and Italy at the same
>time. I think you need to make a stand in Munich, at least. That is a
>critical stalemate center, too.
>
>I don't know if you're seeing the game in the same way I am, but France
>is awfully close to winning this. If I am at war with Italy, France will
>be able to get Italian centers, and that's it. I think even if France
>just gets Tunis, he will win. The rest of the centers are not defensible
>if Italy and Austria are fighting.
>
>I don't understand why you want me to stick with Russia. He is the one
>that is threatening all of your supply centers.
I looked at the position after taking over the position, but haven't been
able to study it because floc.net is down and I'm too lazy to enter the
position on some mapping software or actually get a board out and place the
pieces (remember those days?).
I don't want you to stick with Russia, nor do I necessarily want you to
attack him. I'm just not sure that A/I will be able to slow F/R quickly
enough to save my ass. But, Russia and I can immediately stop France in
the north if Russia is inclined to work with me instead of plunder my
centers. And, it does seem wise for Russia to work with me since my
downfall essentially means France gets to STP eventually -- Russia cannot
produce the northern fleets needed to stop France. And, if Russia and I
stop France in the north it will not matter if France makes headway against
Italy, a different stalemate line can be established with the eastern
powers holding Scandinavia.
I'm trying to visualize myself in a three-way draw, but most of those
scenarios seem to me to be quite unlikely. I might find myself part of a
four-way draw, however. Maybe I'm just not imaginative enough to see how
AIG can take the whole board.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 23 18:04:55 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
>Unfortunately, the automated online mapper seems to be down right now,
>so I don't have easy access to a map that I can study and see if I have
>any ideas.
I'm in the same boat.
>Well, I'm always happy to accept a win by any means. :-) And I think
>you're right that a dwindling power has better chances on the stalemate
>line. I'm not sure whether I'd want to tip my hand to Russia with overt
>F/G cooperation at this time, but if you'd like to simply throw all your
>forces east while serendipitously making things easy for me in the west,
>I won't complain. ;-)
Actually, it hasn't gotten that desperate quite yet. Really, I have
nothing to lose: being eliminated from a standby position doesn't usually
result in a black mark on one's record. I think I'll spend a turn or two
trying very hard to find some friends on the eastern side of the
board. Everyone seems to recognize you as a threat to solo so friends
should not be that hard to find.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 23 18:04:58 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> I don't want you to stick with Russia, nor do I necessarily want you to
> attack him. I'm just not sure that A/I will be able to slow F/R quickly
> enough to save my ass. But, Russia and I can immediately stop France in
> the north if Russia is inclined to work with me instead of plunder my
> centers. And, it does seem wise for Russia to work with me since my
> downfall essentially means France gets to STP eventually -- Russia cannot
> produce the northern fleets needed to stop France. And, if Russia and I
> stop France in the north it will not matter if France makes headway against
> Italy, a different stalemate line can be established with the eastern
> powers holding Scandinavia.
If you can convince Russia to change his tune, I will be amazed. France
has him under his spell, and in fact Russia is having quite a bit of
success with his current alliance.
> I'm trying to visualize myself in a three-way draw, but most of those
> scenarios seem to me to be quite unlikely. I might find myself part of a
> four-way draw, however. Maybe I'm just not imaginative enough to see how
> AIG can take the whole board.
You are in a tough situation, for sure. Many things can happen. Perhaps
you and Italy would not be able to defeat France. Then perhaps I would
want to attack Italy with France rather than being crushed between you
and Italy. The future is fluid; the present is critical.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 23 18:04:56 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi, just checking in. I am assuming that our plans have not changed, and
will not change because of the new German player. Are you negotiating
with him? What is he offering you? I am just curious. I imagine he
will try anything in order to survive.
One of the options he is considering is to make a rush against Warsaw and
Moscow, because he thinks that his only chance of survival might be to
get into a position where he is able to throw the game to France. I am
trying ot convince him to try to stay in Munich, but I don't know how
successful I will be.
Do you have any notion about his negotiations with any of the other players?
Austria
From - Wed Jan 23 18:05:04 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
>The future is fluid; the present is critical.
I'll definitely try to hang on somehow. I'm just trying to figure out how
to best combine my short-term and long-term interests. Understanding the
leanings of the other players would seem critical to both.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 23 18:05:07 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> I'll definitely try to hang on somehow. I'm just trying to figure out how
> to best combine my short-term and long-term interests. Understanding the
> leanings of the other players would seem critical to both.
That's easy. France smells the win. Russia doesn't agree with the danger
that France could win. I'm not sure what Italy wants. He was going to
try to get my centers and then attack France to try for his own win, I
think, but now that France is in danger of winning, I think he is going to
go against France.
Both Italy and I would like nothing better than to see France defeated.
You don't think this is possible?
What about me? I am trying to survive in the short term. I figure that
if I don't survive right now, I won't have to worry about the long-term
results. What about you?
Austria
From - Wed Jan 23 18:05:08 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Russia doesn't agree with the danger
>that France could win.
This would seem to be the key to the upcoming moves. That along with Italy
also recognizing the danger and moving to cover Tunis.
>Both Italy and I would like nothing better than to see France defeated.
>You don't think this is possible?
I do think it is possible. But, I see it as unlikely if Russia continues
to cooperate with France.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 23 18:05:09 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Adam,
There seems to be a lot of sentiment around the board that France is a real
solo threat.
I think a lot depends upon two things: Italy moving to cover Tuns and
establish a naval presence in the western Mediterranean; and you and I
stopping France in the north and preventing his advance to STP.
I can see a few scenarios playing out:
You and France continue to cooperate and Italy does not move west. This
results in a French solo since you won't be able to establish a strong
enough northern navy to stop France from pushing to STP.
You and France continue to cooperate and Italy does move west. France gets
stopped in the south, but he is able to push to STP after I am
gone. Austria and Italy will have established a good working relationship
and will likely be able to push the game to an AFI three-way.
You and I cooperate and Italy does not move west. We stop France in the
north, but he advances into Italy. Austria blames Italy for the French
advance and works with you to eliminate Italy. Maybe you are able to
eliminate Austria and/or me in the aftermath. Likely results: AFGR, FGR,
or AFR.
You and I cooperate and Italy also moves west. France won't only be
stopped, he could fold. He won't be able to withstand the naval pressure
in both the north and the south. I'd say a likely result here is an IGR.
As you can see, I think we both benefit from working together. Do you
think I have analyzed the position incorrectly? If so, please let me know
where I have gone wrong. If not, let's start planning an effective defense
to France in the north.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 23 18:05:10 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> >Both Italy and I would like nothing better than to see France defeated.
> >You don't think this is possible?
>
> I do think it is possible. But, I see it as unlikely if Russia continues
> to cooperate with France.
Don't you think that Russia will retreat from attacking you if he has to
defend against Italy and me? That is the plan, assuming Italy keeps up
his end in the Spring.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 23 18:05:12 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Don't you think that Russia will retreat from attacking you if he has to
>defend against Italy and me?
Probably. But, I'd rather have his cooperation and be in position to
possibly press forward as France shifts to defend his south instead of
relying upon Russia to ease his pressure on me as he shifts to defend his
south. Of course, it may be possible to have both.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 23 18:05:13 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> >Don't you think that Russia will retreat from attacking you if he has to
> >defend against Italy and me?
>
> Probably. But, I'd rather have his cooperation and be in position to
> possibly press forward as France shifts to defend his south instead of
> relying upon Russia to ease his pressure on me as he shifts to defend his
> south. Of course, it may be possible to have both.
Yes, well that would certainly be your ideal situation. However, good
luck even getting Russia to respond to you at all. He thinks he has it
pretty good right now, and France has a good deal of influence on him.
Have you been negotiating with him?
Austria
From - Wed Jan 23 18:05:14 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Have you been negotiating with him?
I have exchanged a couple of messages with him. I'm not sure it officially
meets the definition of negotiating, though.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 23 18:05:15 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> >Have you been negotiating with him?
>
> I have exchanged a couple of messages with him. I'm not sure it officially
> meets the definition of negotiating, though.
Well that's a start at least. Good luck.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 23 18:05:17 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> Of course. :-) Thanks for the update. In his message to me, he seems
> resigned to F/G strife.
Strange, usually a new power talks peace with everyone, I guess
he can see there's no real reason for you to back off.
> There's a certain perverse pleasure in deceiving people by telling them
> the truth. ;-)
Lying in general is easier if you keep to the truth as far
as possible. Some guy in a murder movie told me that once.
Adam..........
From - Wed Jan 23 18:05:18 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Hi, just checking in. I am assuming that our plans have not changed, and
> will not change because of the new German player.
Yep, that's the case. I've never known it not to be the case
actually, I think that the new players only really stand a
chance of altering the course of the game the move AFTER
they start in general. Plenty of exceptions I'm sure.
> Are you negotiating with him? What is he offering you?
He hasn't given much in technical detail. Basically he's
playing the France-Will-Solo gambit that you'd expect.
He may have a point, but I'm not sure that it would be
any easier to stop France with him than it would be if
I took as many of his centers as I could and defended
them from France myself.
> One of the options he is considering is to make a rush against Warsaw and
> Moscow, because he thinks that his only chance of survival might be to
> get into a position where he is able to throw the game to France.
That would be a pain, but I think that Rod would be patient and
still split the German centers 50/50 with me to be honest. He
doens't really even need scandanavia if he can get Italian centers.
> I am trying ot convince him to try to stay in Munich, but I don't know how
> successful I will be.
Can't hurt to try.
> Do you have any notion about his negotiations with any of the other players?
Apparently his negation with France is basically fighting talk,
not even trying to make any peace there but other than that you
know as much as I do now. He tells me that he thinks Italy is
important in the 'stop france' effort, and that he thinks the
best way for the game to progress would be RI take out Austria
and then the rest of us push back France. Can't imagine a four-way
working myself, if Italy gets strong then he'll take out Russia
too, or at least back off from France enough to let France take
out Germany.
Adam.........
From - Thu Jan 24 22:29:02 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Adam,
floc.net is back and I've had a chance to look more closely at the
board. I think we could hold what we've got pretty easily, but even better
would be a chance to advance against France. You must have some sort of
agreement with him about who is to take Norway. With the knowledge of
where the attack is coming from, we can probably take North Sea (I can't
imagine the attack is coming from North Sea). Once there, we can take
Belgium in the fall. Since I'll be occupying Belgium in the fall, you can
move Berlin-Kiel in the spring where the unit will be useful for supporting
in the fall, and I'll still stay even.
You probably get at least one center out of whatever deal you have with
France, but I honestly think the gains you make in cooperation with France
will be temporary only.
What do you think?
Tim
From - Thu Jan 24 22:29:12 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
It seems Austria is very talkative; Russia not so much. My take is that
you have an ally in Austria as long as you move to cover Tunis this
turn. Russia is listening to me out of courtesy, but will end up
continuing along with France. That's too bad since I think if France was
being attacked in the south by you and in the north by G/R that he would be
unable to defend himself.
I also think that should you not cover Tunis, Austria will be spiteful and
do everything he can to help Russia.
I still haven't decided what to do with Munich, I'd very much like to leave
units in Ruhr and Munich since France could not pass that line. But, if I
don't get enough warm fuzzies from Russia, I'll play to move back a bit.
Have you been talking with Russia at all? Any input would be appreciated.
Tim
From - Thu Jan 24 22:29:18 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to England and Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Guys,
I don't know if you're still following gutsy, but I've taken over the
German position and would like to hear thought you may have about the
remaining players. Perhaps you can shed some light on the player
personalities or give me some insight into the game's dynamics.
Thanks,
Tim
From - Thu Jan 24 22:29:21 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
I reviewed our plans to refresh my memory: Bel S Bur-Ruh, Par-Bur, Nth S StP-Nwy,
Ber S Hol-Kie, Pru-Sil. My orders are in as indicated. Let me know if we need to
discuss anything this turn.
Rod
From - Thu Jan 24 22:29:23 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
It appears that the game is about to resume. To refresh my memory, I reviewed our
plans for this turn: You will will move a unit to Tun and I will order Spa H while
moving MAO north. MAO/Mar/Lyo/Wes/NAf/Pie/Tus/TyS are DMZ. Let me know if there are
any issues that we need to discuss.
Rod
From - Thu Jan 24 22:29:24 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> floc.net is back and I've had a chance to look more closely at the
> board. I think we could hold what we've got pretty easily, but even better
> would be a chance to advance against France. You must have some sort of
> agreement with him about who is to take Norway. With the knowledge of
> where the attack is coming from, we can probably take North Sea (I can't
> imagine the attack is coming from North Sea). Once there, we can take
> Belgium in the fall.
Taking Nth would far from guarentee Bel, the fleet would retreat to
Eng if Eng isn't occupied already and Eng, Bel and Bur is enough
to defend Bel from Nth, Hol and Ruh. Even if I turned over to
your side we wouldn't be able to take Nth with the orders that
France has told me he intends to move. I could, in theory, support
Ruh directly into Bel this spring. It's the only way we'd get
Bel this year and holding on to it could be difficult if France
moved into the English channel.
> Since I'll be occupying Belgium in the fall, you can
> move Berlin-Kiel in the spring where the unit will be useful for supporting
> in the fall, and I'll still stay even.
If I supported you into Bel and moved to Kie at the same time, we'd have
some chance against France. Pic, Bur and Nth and possibly Eng would
all try and take Bel back but if Eng is empty we can cut Nth's support
and take Nth if it moves. We'd be able to get Bel or Nth but not
both. Unforunately only one of these is a center so you'd be risking
going down a center again.
> You probably get at least one center out of whatever deal you have with
> France, but I honestly think the gains you make in cooperation with France
> will be temporary only.
You're right, of course, France is almost certainly hoping to solo here,
and that means taking either all of Italy or taking StP or Scandanavia.
We'd be taking a risk going for Bel and having Ber in Kie, you could
lose a unit if France retakes Bel. Perhaps it would be better to leave
something like that until the fall moves?
Adam.........
From - Thu Jan 24 22:29:31 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Adam,
>Even if I turned over to
>your side we wouldn't be able to take Nth with the orders that
>France has told me he intends to move. I could, in theory, support
>Ruh directly into Bel this spring. It's the only way we'd get
>Bel this year and holding on to it could be difficult if France
>moved into the English channel.
Since we have NWY, DEN and HOL against NTH, I assume this means that France
intends to order BEL-HOL. That would also be consistent with your belief
that we could take Belgium in the spring. Would ruh-bel (hol s), mun-ruh
and ber-mun all work? Having units in Ruhr and Munich is better than units
in Kiel and Munich.
I don't believe France can seriously be thinking about ordering MAO-ECH if
he thinks he has your cooperation in the north. Tunis is vulnerable so he
must want to get two fleets into action in the Mediterranean. If France
does not send the fleet south, he could be in trouble if Italy does
attack. My guess he France trusts you more than Italy and will thus send
the fleet south.
Tim
From - Thu Jan 24 22:29:32 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
I've got Russia talking. Any encouragement from you that you could send
him would be appreciated. Perhaps simply letting him know that you will be
sailing east so that France will be under pressure on more than one front
if Russia and I are cooperating.
Thanks,
Tim
From - Thu Jan 24 22:29:35 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
I've got Russia talking about switching sides. Any prodding you can
accomplish would be appreciated. If more than one of us is working on him,
I imagine he is more likely to turn.
Tim
From - Thu Jan 24 22:29:37 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> I've got Russia talking about switching sides. Any prodding you can
> accomplish would be appreciated. If more than one of us is working on him,
> I imagine he is more likely to turn.
I don't know what Russia is telling you, but he has expressed no interest
in attacking France at all. In fact, yesterday he sent me a message
telling me that he thinks France will let him get all of the German
centers, saying that France won't need them if he gets some Italian
centers. He also told me that he doesn't think that you could defend
Germany against France any better than he could, so he doesn't see any
point in keeping you around. You can imagine the frustration of the
former Germany.
Austria
From - Thu Jan 24 22:29:39 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
>He also told me that he doesn't think that you could defend
>Germany against France any better than he could, so he doesn't see any
>point in keeping you around. You can imagine the frustration of the
>former Germany.
I sure can. How can either of us alone defend it better than the two of us
working together?
Tim
From - Thu Jan 24 22:29:40 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
>I don't know what Russia is telling you, but he has expressed no interest
>in attacking France at all. In fact, yesterday he sent me a message
>telling me that he thinks France will let him get all of the German
>centers, saying that France won't need them if he gets some Italian
>centers.
Did you respond with a count of supply centers that France needs to get to
18? Maybe it would be better coming from you and from me. I don't want to
antagonize him and if we start arguing about which centers France needs it
might hinder our negotiations. Maybe better to come from a 3rd party.
Tim
From - Thu Jan 24 22:29:41 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> >He also told me that he doesn't think that you could defend
> >Germany against France any better than he could, so he doesn't see any
> >point in keeping you around. You can imagine the frustration of the
> >former Germany.
>
> I sure can. How can either of us alone defend it better than the two of us
> working together?
Anyway, I think our best bet is to try to work with Italy, if Italy does
what he says. I hope you come to the same conclusion. We were desparate
to work something out with the former Germany, about the time he disappeared.
I am convinced that France will win the game if Italy continues to attack me.
Austria
From - Thu Jan 24 22:29:42 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Did you respond with a count of supply centers that France needs to get to
> 18? Maybe it would be better coming from you and from me. I don't want to
> antagonize him and if we start arguing about which centers France needs it
> might hinder our negotiations. Maybe better to come from a 3rd party.
No, Russia is right. If Italy doesn't attack France, then France will
get some Italian centers, and he will be able to force the rest that he
needs.
Austria
From - Thu Jan 24 22:29:43 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
>No, Russia is right. If Italy doesn't attack France, then France will
>get some Italian centers, and he will be able to force the rest that he
>needs.
Not without taking some centers from Russia. It is virtually inevitable
that France will be attacking Russia at some point. By sticking with
France, Russia is playing for France to play for a draw rather than attempt
a solo. At least that's what it looks like to me.
Tim
From - Thu Jan 24 22:29:45 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> >No, Russia is right. If Italy doesn't attack France, then France will
> >get some Italian centers, and he will be able to force the rest that he
> >needs.
>
> Not without taking some centers from Russia. It is virtually inevitable
> that France will be attacking Russia at some point. By sticking with
> France, Russia is playing for France to play for a draw rather than attempt
> a solo. At least that's what it looks like to me.
I don't know what Russia is thinking exactly, but it sounds to me like he
is willing to trust France because he knows that France needs Italian
centers to win. France could attack Russia, but why would he until he
either has Italian centers, or else after Germany is eliminated.
I know that you are making valiant efforts to try to improve your
situation, and you should continue them, but I honestly don't expect the
situation to change just because there is a new player in the game. The
former Germany was a good player too, and he tried.
This upcoming turn is exciting. It is one of those game-definign
moments. And Italy is in the center of it all. What will he do.
Austria
From - Fri Jan 25 18:25:54 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Since we have NWY, DEN and HOL against NTH, I assume this means that France
> intends to order BEL-HOL. That would also be consistent with your belief
> that we could take Belgium in the spring.
This is what he tells me.
> Would ruh-bel (hol s), mun-ruh and ber-mun all work?
Unlikely, I guess that Bur will try to move to either Mun or
Ruh.
> Having units in Ruhr and Munich is better than units
> in Kiel and Munich.
>
> I don't believe France can seriously be thinking about ordering MAO-ECH if
> he thinks he has your cooperation in the north.
When we've talked about it he's claimed to still be making up
his mind. Haven't really mentioned it at all since the old
Germany abaondoned. He wants Italy to feel safe enough to
attack continue to attack Austria, or to defend against me
I guess. Raine has been asking for yet more withdrawal from
the Med, Rod said he was considering whether to do as Raine
asked or to try and take Tunis. I tried to talk him into taking
Tunis, and may have succeeded but can't be sure.
> Tunis is vulnerable so he
> must want to get two fleets into action in the Mediterranean. If France
> does not send the fleet south, he could be in trouble if Italy does
> attack. My guess he France trusts you more than Italy and will thus send
> the fleet south.
Possibly. Even if he doesn't move to Eng he will have Nth and
Pic and Bur to accak Bel with. We'd need to be in Ruh in order
to hold Bel and that's going to leave Munich empty at a guess.
We don't have long till the deadline, need to start making solid
plans really.
Adam........
From - Fri Jan 25 18:28:23 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Since we have NWY, DEN and HOL against NTH, I assume this means that France
> intends to order BEL-HOL. That would also be consistent with your belief
> that we could take Belgium in the spring.
This is what he tells me.
> Would ruh-bel (hol s), mun-ruh and ber-mun all work?
Unlikely, I guess that Bur will try to move to either Mun or
Ruh.
> Having units in Ruhr and Munich is better than units
> in Kiel and Munich.
>
> I don't believe France can seriously be thinking about ordering MAO-ECH if
> he thinks he has your cooperation in the north.
When we've talked about it he's claimed to still be making up
his mind. Haven't really mentioned it at all since the old
Germany abaondoned. He wants Italy to feel safe enough to
attack continue to attack Austria, or to defend against me
I guess. Raine has been asking for yet more withdrawal from
the Med, Rod said he was considering whether to do as Raine
asked or to try and take Tunis. I tried to talk him into taking
Tunis, and may have succeeded but can't be sure.
> Tunis is vulnerable so he
> must want to get two fleets into action in the Mediterranean. If France
> does not send the fleet south, he could be in trouble if Italy does
> attack. My guess he France trusts you more than Italy and will thus send
> the fleet south.
Possibly. Even if he doesn't move to Eng he will have Nth and
Pic and Bur to accak Bel with. We'd need to be in Ruh in order
to hold Bel and that's going to leave Munich empty at a guess.
We don't have long till the deadline, need to start making solid
plans really.
Adam........
From - Fri Jan 25 18:25:55 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> I reviewed our plans to refresh my memory: Bel S Bur-Ruh,
> Par-Bur, Nth S StP-Nwy, Ber S Hol-Kie, Pru-Sil. My orders
> are in as indicated. Let me know if we need to discuss
> anything this turn.
That's the plan as I remember it, well I couldn't remember
what you said you'd do with Bur but I guess that's becasue
it doesn't make much difference to me. Germany seems desperate
enough that it might be possible to know his moves in advance
if I string him along some more. Will you be around to organise
last minute changes to our orders if something interesting
comes out of that?
Adam.........
From - Fri Jan 25 18:28:25 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> I reviewed our plans to refresh my memory: Bel S Bur-Ruh,
> Par-Bur, Nth S StP-Nwy, Ber S Hol-Kie, Pru-Sil. My orders
> are in as indicated. Let me know if we need to discuss
> anything this turn.
That's the plan as I remember it, well I couldn't remember
what you said you'd do with Bur but I guess that's becasue
it doesn't make much difference to me. Germany seems desperate
enough that it might be possible to know his moves in advance
if I string him along some more. Will you be around to organise
last minute changes to our orders if something interesting
comes out of that?
Adam.........
From - Fri Jan 25 18:25:57 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Germany seems desperate
> enough that it might be possible to know his moves in advance
> if I string him along some more. Will you be around to organise
> last minute changes to our orders if something interesting
> comes out of that?
Yes, I'll be online till at least 5:00 PM EST (22:00 GMT?), though I'll probably
take a long lunch break, then I'll check my email again late this evening (early
morning GMT).
Rod
From - Fri Jan 25 18:28:25 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Germany seems desperate
> enough that it might be possible to know his moves in advance
> if I string him along some more. Will you be around to organise
> last minute changes to our orders if something interesting
> comes out of that?
Yes, I'll be online till at least 5:00 PM EST (22:00 GMT?), though I'll probably
take a long lunch break, then I'll check my email again late this evening (early
morning GMT).
Rod
From - Fri Jan 25 18:28:27 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
>We don't have long till the deadline, need to start making solid
>plans really.
I agree. I was hoping that you would make a suggestion since you have the
inside line on what France will be planning.
You have already said that France will be ordering BEL-HOL. What will he
be doing with the fleets in NTH and NWG? You must have some idea since he
would want to coordinate activity with your unit in STP. Unless he is
planning NTH S NWG, we can take NTH and Belgium this turn. If he is using
NWG to support NTH, then I am free to move Sweden to SKA where we will be
better placed to attack NTH in the fall. France may recapture Belgium in
the fall, but by taking North Sea we will have gained positional
advantage. OUr advantage right now is that our fleets outnumber his
fleets. I think we should start trying to exploit this.
Tim
From - Fri Jan 25 18:28:28 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
I seem to be getting a message a morning from Russia and then nothing much
the rest of the day. I think you're right: he's talking but doesn't intend
to do anything other than stick with France.
I have gotten this out of him: France is ordering BEL-HOL and Russia says
we cannot take NTH. From this, I gather that Russia is supposed to order
HOL-KIE and that France is using NWG to support NTH.
There area couple of things that appear tempting:
1) I could use France's move to HOL to attempt to destroy the Russia
fleet. Something like DEN-HEL, RUH-KIE (MUN S) might mean a bounce in Kiel
and a destroyed Russian fleet if Russia uses NTH to support his move to
Holland. Together with SWE-DEN, I could position myself to take NTH in the
fall if France doesn't move MAO-ECH.
2) I could move to take STP. NWY-BAR and SWE-BOT will likely net me STP in
the fall since it would appear France is not the one attacking
NWY. Meanwhile, MUN-SIL, RUH-MUN and DEN-BAL would put Russia to a guess
whether to support Berlin or cover Warsaw. Of course, depending upon what
you are going to do, Warsaw cold be a sure thing for one of us. I realize
this is somewhat defeatist and will probably not get me into a draw, but it
would likely also mean Russia's more immediate undoing.
I think I'm leaning towards ruh-kie (mun s) den-hel, swe-den, nwy h. I
think this could score big when the Russian fleet is destroyed. But, also
is far less committal than other actions and could leave the door open to
Russian cooperation down the line.
Thoughts?
Tim
From - Fri Jan 25 18:28:30 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Anything interesting from Germany? Will he accept your support? He's
been trying to negotiate with Russia, but I think he hasn't gotten very far.
Austria
From - Fri Jan 25 18:28:31 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> I have gotten this out of him: France is ordering BEL-HOL and Russia says
> we cannot take NTH. From this, I gather that Russia is supposed to order
> HOL-KIE and that France is using NWG to support NTH.
That is possible. France will probably order Bur-Mun (or Ber-Mun?) and
Par-Pic. I don't see why they would worry about Nth, though. I think you
are in a better position now than you would be if you went to Nth.
I am pretty certain that France will move Mid-Naf and Spa-Wes.
You can probably also count on Stp-Nwy and Pru-Sil.
> 1) I could use France's move to HOL to attempt to destroy the Russia
> fleet. Something like DEN-HEL, RUH-KIE (MUN S) might mean a bounce in Kiel
> and a destroyed Russian fleet if Russia uses NTH to support his move to
> Holland. Together with SWE-DEN, I could position myself to take NTH in the
> fall if France doesn't move MAO-ECH.
It is possible France will supsport Bel-Hol. I don't know. You could
need to move Mun-Ber and Ruh-Kie to bounce Kie, though, since your Munich
support would likely be cut.
> 2) I could move to take STP. NWY-BAR and SWE-BOT will likely net me STP in
> the fall since it would appear France is not the one attacking
> NWY. Meanwhile, MUN-SIL, RUH-MUN and DEN-BAL would put Russia to a guess
> whether to support Berlin or cover Warsaw. Of course, depending upon what
> you are going to do, Warsaw cold be a sure thing for one of us. I realize
> this is somewhat defeatist and will probably not get me into a draw, but it
> would likely also mean Russia's more immediate undoing.
You could get Stp, but you would lose Nwy and Den. If you move Den-Nth
and Swe S Nwy, it will be difficult for them to take any of your
Scandinavian centers.
Actually, if I were them, I would be moving in the Spring to get
position. Probably Hol-Hel or Hol-Nth and Nth-Ska. Something like
this. Otherwise, they can't get anything in the Fall. I would make your
Spring moves to try to bounce these positional moves.
> I think I'm leaning towards ruh-kie (mun s) den-hel, swe-den, nwy h. I
> think this could score big when the Russian fleet is destroyed. But, also
> is far less committal than other actions and could leave the door open to
> Russian cooperation down the line.
> Thoughts?
You might consider Swe-Ska, though France could move Nth-Den to cut that
support. I wouldn't put too much faith in whatever Russia says. In
fact, if you suspected that they would do the opposite of what they said,
you might be better off.
Austria
From - Fri Jan 25 18:28:35 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Actually, I am somewhat embarassed to bring this up now, but Russia
inadvertantly sent me a message intended for France before you replaced
the other Germany. I hadn't remembered it exactly, but after I read your
last letter discussing the moves, I just re-read it, suspecting that it
might give some insight as to what they planned to do.
Anyway, I think there moves will be Bur-Ruh, Bel S Bur-Ruh, Par-Bur,
Hol-Kie, Ber S Hol-Kie, Nwg S Nth, Nth S Stp-Nwy, Pru-Sil.
They may have changed them since, but this is what they were talking
about at the time. One of the moves Hol-Kie or Bur-Ruh will have to
work. I don't know what the best counter is. You can count on Italy's
support for Munich in the Fall, but it may not be enough. I wonder if
you could convince Italy to move Tyr-Boh and Ven-Tyr?
As far as Scandinavia is concerned, Swe S Nwy looks to be in order (this
will save Nwy in the Fall).
Maybe Den-Hel, Mun-Bur?
Well, I hope this is helpful.
Austria
From - Fri Jan 25 18:28:36 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> You have already said that France will be ordering BEL-HOL.
I did say that, but I was mistaken. Bel's order wasn't that
important to me so I forgot what we'd agreed way back when
the old German player was at the helm and before all the
delays. Bel is in fact supporting Bur to Ruh. Nwg is
supporting Nth and Nth is supporting StP-Nwy. This does
leave us with a pretty good attack, we can take both
Bel and Nth by year end and keep both unless I'm mistaken.
Den&Nwy S Swe - Ska is safe because I won't order StP-Nwy.
Hol S Ruh - Bel should succeed
Mun - Ruh will bounce with Bur though.
Ber - Kie will work, as will Pru to Sil.
That leaves France, who now knows what's up, facing three
fleets onto Nth and two units defending Bel (Bel & Hol).
The Bur suport can be cut from Munich and Nth will be
dislodged from Ska in the fall so he's only got Pic to
offer uncuttable support for Bel, which is 2 on 2 and
we keep it until the fall.
The only way that can go wrong is if France moves to MAO-Eng
in the spring. That would leave him two uncuttable supports
and Bell will fall back into French hands.
> France may recapture Belgium in
> the fall, but by taking North Sea we will have gained positional
> advantage. OUr advantage right now is that our fleets outnumber his
> fleets. I think we should start trying to exploit this.
I think you're right. I wasn't sure up until now but it's
clear that I'm never going to be able to build enough fleets
to keep France at bay after you are dead, so at the very
least I have to make the time until you're dead longer so
that I can build more fleets. This is why I had my unit
moving into Kie while you take Bel. The build I get
can be F StP, which gives us what looks like a pretty
impressive line against France for the future.
I don't think the battle will be easy still, but if
Italy makes the right choices we'll at least stand
a chance, something I wouldn't do if I tried to fight
that battle with just one fleet in Hol!
What do you think? Those orders sound good enough?
Adam.........
From - Fri Jan 25 18:28:37 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Adam,
I just noticed how many people are observing this game. Has there been
much observer chat? I hope our reconciliation gives them something to talk
about, I enjoy lots of broadcasts.
I'm experiencing significant lag communicating with NZMB. I received
confirmation of my note to you and your note to me at about the same time
even though they were time stamped about 7 hours apart. I apologize if my
replies seems to be slow -- I don't think it's my fault.
Tim
From - Fri Jan 25 18:28:40 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
>I'm experiencing significant lag communicating with NZMB. I received
>confirmation of my note to you and your note to me at about the same time
>even though they were time stamped about 7 hours apart. I apologize if my
>replies seems to be slow -- I don't think it's my fault.
Four hours apart -- I was going the wrong way around the clock. But, got
confirmation of this one quickly. Haven't received confirmation of my
previous note to you, though.
Tim
From - Fri Jan 25 18:28:41 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
I'm also getting some delay in talking to the judge, I got
confirmation of my last note to you though, I think all
you need to do is confirm that you want to do as I suggested
and we're all set unless there's some problem.
Adam.........
From - Fri Jan 25 18:28:42 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Everything you say sound good except for one thing. I think you will have
to stay in STP in the fall to support NWY. But, I think if we are working
together we already have enough fleets in the north. Another army could
serve you well (if Italy does the right thing, you will want to be
squeezing Austria out). Or, you could waive the build until the following
year when it should be an easy matter to open STP.
I will order RUH-BEL, expecting you to support and MUN-BUR to cut support
for the French attack on Ruhr. I will advance SWE-SKA.
I'm quite pleased to finally have this worked out. I was beginning to
think that we wouldn't be able to do it even though I think it is clearly
in the best interest for both of us.
Tim
From - Fri Jan 25 18:28:46 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Everything you say sound good except for one thing. I think you will have
> to stay in STP in the fall to support NWY.
I could do that from Fin if I more there in the spring. Good
idea? Bad idea? France can't threaten StP until next spring
unless he unexpectedly moves to Barents this spring.
> I will order RUH-BEL, expecting you to support and MUN-BUR to cut support
> for the French attack on Ruhr. I will advance SWE-SKA.
Mun - Bur won't do what you're hoping there. Bel is doing the
supporting and Bur is moving to Ruh. You need to move Munich to
Ruh to bounce Bur there or France will be in Bur and Ruh.
You need Mun - Ruh, not Mun - Bur.
Entering my orders now:
F Hol S Ruh - Bel
A StP - Fin
> I'm quite pleased to finally have this worked out. I was beginning to
> think that we wouldn't be able to do it even though I think it is clearly
> in the best interest for both of us.
I was probably more reluctant than I should have been, it
took me getting the board out and playing with the units
this evening to convince me you were right. I'm still not
sure you are right in the south, but that's not so important
or immediately relevent I don't think.
Adam.........
From - Fri Jan 25 18:28:53 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
>I could do that from Fin if I more there in the spring. Good
>idea? Bad idea? France can't threaten StP until next spring
>unless he unexpectedly moves to Barents this spring.
Seems reasonable. I still think we have enough fleets already, but this at
least allows for you to decide either way this winter.
> > I will order RUH-BEL, expecting you to support and MUN-BUR to cut support
> > for the French attack on Ruhr. I will advance SWE-SKA.
>
>Mun - Bur won't do what you're hoping there. Bel is doing the
>supporting and Bur is moving to Ruh. You need to move Munich to
>Ruh to bounce Bur there or France will be in Bur and Ruh.
>You need Mun - Ruh, not Mun - Bur.
Thanks, I was thinking the other way around: France ordering BEL-RUH (BUR S).
I will switch to MUN-RUH.
I notice that I have set wait (I didn't, oddly enough, either the previous
German or the master when I took over). I will clear that, too.
Tim
From - Fri Jan 25 18:28:54 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Thanks, I was thinking the other way around: France ordering BEL-RUH (BUR S).
Yeah, he wants to follow Par - Bur up as well, get
some more units into play.
> I will switch to MUN-RUH.
That's good.
> I notice that I have set wait (I didn't, oddly enough, either the previous
> German or the master when I took over). I will clear that, too.
Well, I'm about to start drinking and so retiring from the
computer for the evening so I'll not get the results till
tommorow anyway.
Have a good weekend,
Adam........
From - Sat Jan 26 08:02:30 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you about Munich. I wanted to give
myself as much time as possible to work something out with Russia. I think
the time has paid off, but won't know for sure until I see the next set of
moves.
I am not ordering Munich to hold, nor am I ordering Ruhr-Munich, so your
help is not needed this turn. I would suggest that since you're going
after France by sea, you might also order VEN-PIE as added
leverage. Perhaps you already planned to do that.
Tim
From - Sat Jan 26 08:02:33 2002
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: S1909M Sat Jan 26 2002 20:00:00 +1300
Movement results for Spring of 1909. (gutsy.034)
Austria: Army Rumania -> Ukraine.
Austria: Army Vienna SUPPORT Army Trieste.
Austria: Fleet Eastern Mediterranean SUPPORT Russian Army Armenia -> Smyrna.
Austria: Army Trieste HOLD.
Austria: Army Serbia -> Rumania.
France: Army Burgundy -> Ruhr. (*bounce*)
France: Army Edinburgh HOLD.
France: Fleet Norwegian Sea SUPPORT Fleet North Sea.
France: Army London HOLD.
France: Fleet North Sea SUPPORT Russian Army St Petersburg -> Norway. (*void*)
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean -> English Channel.
France: Army Belgium SUPPORT Army Burgundy -> Ruhr. (*dislodged*)
France: Fleet Spain (south coast) HOLD.
France: Army Paris -> Burgundy. (*bounce*)
Germany: Army Ruhr -> Belgium.
Germany: Army Munich -> Ruhr. (*bounce*)
Germany: Fleet Sweden -> Skagerrak.
Germany: Fleet Norway HOLD.
Germany: Fleet Denmark SUPPORT Fleet Sweden -> Skagerrak.
Italy: Army Bulgaria -> Black Sea -> Ankara.
Italy: Army Venice SUPPORT Army Tyrolia.
Italy: Fleet Black Sea CONVOY Army Bulgaria -> Ankara.
Italy: Fleet Aegean Sea CONVOY Army Naples -> Constantinople.
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea CONVOY Army Naples -> Constantinople.
Italy: Army Tyrolia SUPPORT German Army Munich. (*void*)
Italy: Fleet Greece HOLD.
Italy: Fleet Apulia -> Adriatic Sea.
Italy: Army Naples -> Ionian Sea -> Aegean Sea -> Constantinople.
Russia: Fleet Holland SUPPORT German Army Ruhr -> Belgium.
Russia: Army Armenia -> Smyrna.
Russia: Army Prussia -> Berlin.
Russia: Army St Petersburg -> Finland.
Russia: Army Berlin -> Kiel.
Russia: Fleet Sevastopol -> Black Sea. (*bounce*)
The following units were dislodged:
The French Army in Belgium can retreat to Picardy.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Retreats for Spring of 1909.
The deadline for orders will be Tue Jan 29 2002 19:01:03 +1300.
From - Sat Jan 26 13:20:13 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Sorry for the long silence. I haven't been talking in gutsy after Tim came
around. Sometimes real life takes too much time :-)
Let me first comment your messages:
>Have you just sent one of those nervous stab-premonition messages you
>were referring to?
I don't understand what you mean in here? I told you that I don't think
you'll believe me untill I make the first move so I asked you to order in
a way that you don't do any harm that isn't recoverable. In fact I
believed you'll make more threatening moves than you did, thanks for that.
> I've told the new Germany that you have agreed to support him, and that
> if you defended against France this turn, we would take care of Russia
> in the Fall so he wouldn't need to worry about him after that.
Ok, thanks for telling it to Germany. I told it to Tim too. I managed to
read his reply too late to change my void support. What comes to defending
against France, it was my threat to NOT defend against France as long as
you and Adam work together. I _did_ promise to leave Bulgaria open which
was the first move we talked much about.
> Anything interesting from Germany? Will he accept your support? He's
> been trying to negotiate with Russia, but I think he hasn't gotten very
> far.
I told Tim about AGI. He replied and asked if I have something against
GIR. He assumed that I know you (AR) and I have some reasons to talk about
AGI but not about GIR. I gave him my reasons. About the support. I told
him that I have support to Mun hold in there. I asked him to tell me if he
wants me to change it. In the end he replied that I can do what I want
with Tyr but like you see I didn't check my mails before the deadline.
I have the imperssion that Tim achieved more with talking to you than with
Adam. He tried to get Russia on his side but I cannot say if he managed or
not 'cause the moves are somewhat confusing.
What next?
I can support you to Sev. Then you should get two of Russia's home
centers. I will naturally kick Russian army from Smyrna. I believe it is
good overall if you take two centers from Russia and Russia will most
likely take a center or two (maybe even three) from Germany (we cannot
prevent that).
I'd finally like to see you removing your fleet :-)
BTW, would you finally reveal the RF discussion?
Raine
From - Sat Jan 26 13:20:30 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> It appears that the game is about to resume. To refresh my memory, I reviewed our
> plans for this turn: You will will move a unit to Tun and I will order
> Spa H while moving MAO north. MAO/Mar/Lyo/Wes/NAf/Pie/Tus/TyS are
> DMZ. Let me know if there are
> any issues that we need to discuss.
Sorry for the long silence. Real life takes it's time every now and then.
If I remember correct I asked from you if I can move a unit to Tys or Tun
to defend Tunis. Then we started to talk if the unit is army or fleet that
might go to Tunis. We manage to do well despite the little talks :-)
I think the next step we planned was Spa(sc)-Mao and after that we DMZ
Spa/Mar/Lyo/Wes/NAf/Pie/Tus/TyS/Por and when you move away from Mao (to
north) then we add Mao to DMZ. This was the plan.
What do you think of our new Germany?
Raine
From - Sat Jan 26 13:20:34 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Adam,
Thanks for doing just as promised.
For the fall, I'd like to suggest: BEL-BUR (MUN S), HOL-NTH (NWT, DEN & SKA
S), and FIN S NWY. France can retake Belgium, but you would take NTH and I
would be able to retreat to Holland so that we both are even in the
area. If France decides to hold NTH, I keep Belgium, you keep HOL and KIE
and you are net +1.
I suspect strongly that the Austrian will be very mad at Italy for not
moving against France. In fact, it looks clear to me that what we are
facing is an I/F.
Tim
From - Sat Jan 26 13:20:40 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Sadly, it looks like an I/F. Russia eventually told me the French plan was
exactly as you told me and suggested some moves to deal with it. I
believed him. At least we appear to have France stopped on one
front. Though that may be little consolation if Italy and France are
working together.
Tim
From - Sat Jan 26 13:20:42 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
So, the real danger is an I/F? I am quite disappointed to find that you
aren't in on the attack France game.
Tim
From - Sat Jan 26 13:20:43 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hmmm, an I/F. Certainly looked like a possibility, but the diplomacy did
not indicate it.
Tim
From - Sat Jan 26 13:20:47 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Tim,
My apologies for the silence lately. I read your message too late to
change the void support.
> It seems Austria is very talkative; Russia not so much. My take is that
> you have an ally in Austria as long as you move to cover Tunis this
> turn. Russia is listening to me out of courtesy, but will end up
> continuing along with France. That's too bad since I think if France
> was being attacked in the south by you and in the north by G/R that he
> would be unable to defend himself.
Tunis was amongst the points we argued about with Keith. I threatened to
NOT defend against France if AR work against me in south. Keith was
determined to work with Adam untill I show my goodwill first. We agreed to
that I'll left Bulgaria empty as a sign of goodwill and that is the first
step. I told you that AI have had some troubles but they should be over
now.
> Have you been talking with Russia at all? Any input would be
> appreciated.
Yes, but not much. So I cannot help you in there. I believe that Keith has
better knowledge of Russia's intentions.
> I've got Russia talking. Any encouragement from you that you could send
> him would be appreciated. Perhaps simply letting him know that you will
> be sailing east so that France will be under pressure on more than one
> front if Russia and I are cooperating.
Even if I had been more online lately I would not lie. I had no intention
to go against France as AR where working against me. They both knew it. It
was no secret. Didn't they tell you? I believe that Keith told it 'cause
you mentioned the defend of Tunis in your message.
> I am not ordering Munich to hold, nor am I ordering Ruhr-Munich, so your
> help is not needed this turn. I would suggest that since you're going
> after France by sea, you might also order VEN-PIE as added
> leverage. Perhaps you already planned to do that.
I read this after the deadline so I couldn't change the order. Where did
you get the idea that I am heading against France _now_? I didn't tell you
that.
> So, the real danger is an I/F? I am quite disappointed to find that you
> aren't in on the attack France game.
Again, who claimed that I am attacking France? I threatened both Russia
and Austria that I won't even defend against France as long as they are
working against me. I certainly am not going to help France.
Raine
From - Sat Jan 26 13:20:49 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
>Even if I had been more online lately I would not lie. I had no intention
>to go against France as AR where working against me. They both knew it. It
>was no secret. Didn't they tell you? I believe that Keith told it 'cause
>you mentioned the defend of Tunis in your message.
The need to cover Tunis appeared obvious to me. Yes, I talked with Austria
about it. He told me that he would work with you if you covered Tunis,
against you if you did not. It seems a pretty reasonable position to me.
>I read this after the deadline so I couldn't change the order. Where did
>you get the idea that I am heading against France _now_? I didn't tell you
>that.
Well, I had indication that you had things worked out with Austria. And,
that would mean you would be moving against France.
> > So, the real danger is an I/F? I am quite disappointed to find that you
> > aren't in on the attack France game.
>
>Again, who claimed that I am attacking France? I threatened both Russia
>and Austria that I won't even defend against France as long as they are
>working against me. I certainly am not going to help France.
You are helping him by not moving against him. That you cannot deny.
Tim
From - Sat Jan 26 13:20:50 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria and Russia in 'gutsy':
>Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
>
>I had no intention to go against France as AR where working against me.
>They both knew it. It was no secret.
At least one of you, maybe both, described Raine to me as stubborn. It
appears to me that he is set in his course and is not thinking about other
options.
Do you think ARG has any hope (from a purely tactical standpoint) against IF?
Tim
From - Sat Jan 26 14:56:13 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Here is the message that Russia accidently sent to me (twice!) instead of
France:
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Could be, but hopefully you're increasing your own chances as well. :-)
Yeah, but the bookies favourite right now has to be France.
> Definitely. I was thinking that if Raine expects Arm-Ank and
> does Bla-Ank to bounce, Sev-Bla and a supported attack on Smy
> would be quite fruitful.
Looks fairly good, though I have to finish talking to Austria about
supports and whatnot, he has F Eas remember, and A Rum/A Ser play
quite a roll in this fight too.
> Sounds good, but I think it's better to devise the best possible
> attack then juggle centers if things look inequitable than to fix
> the fate of the centers before we know how we're going to get there.
I guess that's true, I think I was just checking that we
agreed on a 50/50 split of what's left. The problem with
this see-who-gets-there approach of course is that we're
going to need a solid and easily defended line between us
at some point. I'm not really sure what that line would look
like off hand but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have
French in Bel and Mun and Kie and Den while I was in Hol
for instance.
> leave Scandinavia solid but the Fatherland vulnerable, so we'll
> probably want to focus on Kie and Mun first. If we try Hol S
> Bur-Ruh, Ber S Hol-Kie, at least one of those moves will succeed.
Hol S Bur-Ruh won't work, Hol's a fleet that can't support inland.
Oh, I guess you mean Bel. Yeah, that looks good if you do mean
Bel. I'll order Hol - Kie supported by Berlin.
> We might as well also do Nwg S Nth (I'd rather not risk Nth),
> Nth S StP-Nwy, Pru-Sil. What do you think?
Also looks good, might as well try for Scandanavia though I doubt
it will work and Pru-Sil seems obvious enough.
> I told Raine I will move Spa-MAO, MAO-Eng. I'm debating whether
> I should actually do so or just go for Tun. I'd like to take Tun,
> but if you believe that you will have success against Italy in
> the east then it might not be urgent for me to immediately
> hit him in the west. What do you think my priorities should be?
Italy says that he's going to leave himself open to attack from
you, I certainly don't think he'll be able to do anything about
it if you don't back off. Kieth is saying that he expects Italy
to continue to fight him and even to lose supply centers though
he says he'll try to organise it so that I take the supply centers
from Austria rather than having Italy do so in return for my attacking
Italy. That's cool since I was attacking Italy anyway!
> The best move against G is probably B A Par, Par-Bur, MAO-Eng,
> then I can do Eng S Nth to free Nwg for other duties in the Fall.
> Or if you think Raine is our major hurdle I can go for Tun.
I don't think Raine will be much of a problem, whether this is
a reason to take Tunis or a reason to delay and concentrate on
Germany is a different question. The German battle looks like
we have enough units there to win it to me, possibly a fleet
in StP later on and it might be worth one extra French unit
at some point too but I don't see any rush and a convoy from
England to the mainland might be just as useful as an extra
unit.
> Italy has more centers right now, but Steve is the better
> player, and my first inclination is to string Raine along
> a little more rather than risk letting Germany off the hook.
> What are your feelings on this?
Steve is a better player, but Steve has clearly lost interest
or motivation or time or something - he's barely writing any
press at all and he's in a bad way. As you pointed out, his
home centers are vunerable and when he has to disband the rest
of his centers will collapse. I don't honestly believe either
Raine is going to be much hassle to you or that Steve will be
let off the hook whichever move you decide on. You'll look
less threatening for the solo if you leave Italy alone for
a while, but that kind of smoke-and-mirrors probably won't
wash with this crowd anyway.
Adam..........
From - Sat Jan 26 14:56:14 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
It seems I have been tricked. Italy told me he would move against France
if I attacked you. Sadly, this did not happen. I will lose Trieste this
turn. I am sure Italy is offering to support you to Rumania. I don't
know how we will be able to work together to defeat him. He has too many
units in the area now.
Austria
From - Sat Jan 26 14:56:15 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I have the imperssion that Tim achieved more with talking to you than with
> Adam. He tried to get Russia on his side but I cannot say if he managed or
> not 'cause the moves are somewhat confusing.
No, I did not change my moves. They were set. I anticipated your moving
against France. I see now that you are instead poised to take Treiste,
without anything I can do about it. Do you plan to take Trieste?
> I can support you to Sev. Then you should get two of Russia's home
> centers. I will naturally kick Russian army from Smyrna. I believe it is
> good overall if you take two centers from Russia and Russia will most
> likely take a center or two (maybe even three) from Germany (we cannot
> prevent that).
What's your plan? Are you going to move against France or not? If
you're going to attack me, why would you want to support me to Sevastopol?
Austria
From - Sat Jan 26 14:56:17 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Sadly, it looks like an I/F. Russia eventually told me the French plan was
> exactly as you told me and suggested some moves to deal with it. I
> believed him. At least we appear to have France stopped on one
> front. Though that may be little consolation if Italy and France are
> working together.
Do you trust Russia? It looks like you are in not so good shape. They
can take Norway, and your fleet would have to retreat to Stp, where it
would be useless (and this would also prevent Russia from building a
northern fleet, which I am sure that France does not want). Also, you
will lose Kie, Bel, and possibly Munich if you are trusting Russia. You
can be sure that Italy will take Trieste and not help support Munich.
I'm no better off. I can take a center from Russia, but Italy will take
Trieste and probably support Russia to Rumania. Eas and Smy will be
dislodged, and there is little I can do. My days are numbered.
Austria
From - Sat Jan 26 14:56:18 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
Italy poses a significant threat. I think it is in your best interests
to make sure that Italy does not grow too powerful. I need some help.
It would be of great benefit if you could send your fleet to Wes. There
is no chance you can win this game if Italy expands much more. He will
take Trieste, dislodge Eas, and there is little I can do. Your window
against him is quickly narrowing.
Austria
From - Sat Jan 26 19:13:58 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
Hi, sorry about the strange moves there, it's not what it looks
like. I did send you some press telling you to keep you moves
the same but try for Tunis as well since Germany would be
done with soon but I screwed it up and it bounced back to me
with an error that I didn't see till just now. Shame that
we won't be able to press Raine, but it's not that important
I guess.
The moves I've managed to get Tim to do, combined with the
fact he now thinks I'm working with him, should enable us to
take him down to one SC this year! How's that for fast thinking,
improvisation and clear-headded manipulation?
Nwg S Nth - Nwy takes Norway for France
Fin - Swe take Sweeden for Russia
Kie S Ber - Mun takes Munich
Pic S Bur - Bel take Bel for France
Just leaving Germany with one supply center in Denmark. At
worst he'd have a fleet in Nth and no units in Denmark. It's
hard to predict exactly where he'll disband when he'll have
to diband four units at once!
The only thing that's gone wrong is that you may have lost
some trust in me since the last minute stuff I sent you bounced
back. This is the trouble with finishing negotations so close
to the deadline.
Are we still okay? Is my plan a killer or what? Sets us up
wonderfully to have only one problem left: Italy.
Adam.............
From - Sat Jan 26 19:13:59 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Do you trust Russia? It looks like you are in not so good shape.
I'm in not so good shape if Russia proves untrustworthy. I have chances if
Russia is trustworthy.
>I'm no better off. I can take a center from Russia, but Italy will take
>Trieste and probably support Russia to Rumania. Eas and Smy will be
>dislodged, and there is little I can do. My days are numbered.
The move to UKR no doubt annoyed Russia and means the fall of Trieste. I
understand that you put your eggs in the Italian basket.
Tim
From - Sat Jan 26 19:14:01 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> Sorry for the long silence. Real life takes it's time every now and then.
No problem. :-)
> We manage to do well despite the little talks :-)
Yes, things are going well. You made a good move - you can reclaim Smy
and force Tri for a build. :-)
I'm curious - did you fool Austria into thinking you'd help him against
Russia? I can't imagine why else he would've moved Ser-Rum, Rum-Ukr.
> I think the next step we planned was Spa(sc)-Mao and after that we DMZ
> Spa/Mar/Lyo/Wes/NAf/Pie/Tus/TyS/Por and when you move away from Mao (to
> north) then we add Mao to DMZ.
That sounds good, but we need to add Tun to the DMZ list. If you will
be in Tun then I'd like to stay in Spa - that's why I ordered Spa H this
turn, because I though you would move to Tun. If you agree to DMZ Tun
then I will happily move Spa-MAO this turn and MAO-NAO the next. Is
that equitable?
Also, may I ask that you not build any fleets? Your navy is quite
sufficient to secure all the non-DMZ waters, and if you are to take the
17 centers on your side of the line then you need more armies. I would
be quite nervous if you were to build fleets while I have all my forces
committed against GR in the north.
> What do you think of our new Germany?
It appears he has found a friend, so he should be able to survive a
while longer.
Rod
From - Sat Jan 26 19:14:06 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> The only thing that's gone wrong is that you may have lost
> some trust in me since the last minute stuff I sent you bounced
> back.
That's true, but the moves you suggested are pretty close to what I
probably would've done anyway, so I might as well give you the benefit
of the doubt.
> The moves I've managed to get Tim to do, combined with the
> fact he now thinks I'm working with him, should enable us to
> take him down to one SC this year!
Excellent! It also helps secure a stable line between us, so you don't
have to worry about me sneaking too far ahead. ;-) And if everyone
else thinks we're at odds, all the better. :-)
Plus, you could use a build or two to counter the Austrian threat.
However, there's one little wrinkle: What if Nwy retreats to StP?
> Sets us up wonderfully to have only one problem left: Italy.
I hope you won't be disappointed if I don't move against him immediately
- I'm not too eager to have enemies all around if it turns out you've
sided with Germany after all. OTOH, if I get a build, a fleet in Mar
could be quite useful. ;-)
Rod
From - Sat Jan 26 19:14:07 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
> Hmmm, an I/F. Certainly looked like a possibility, but the diplomacy did
> not indicate it.
I/F was a possibility, though not a certainty - but if Italy continues
east while G/R conspire against me in the north, then surely I/F is my
best bet, ja?
Be careful to not have too much success against me - if France is no
longer a threat to solo then Russia has little reason to keep you
alive. OTOH, if you help me take Russian centers then I'll keep you in
the game, and you can relocate to the stalemate line.
Rod
From - Sat Jan 26 19:14:11 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
Keith,
> I think it is in your best interests
> to make sure that Italy does not grow too powerful.
Yes, but it's also in my best interests to see him push east rather than
come after me - particularly if I have to deal with G/R in the north.
> It would be of great benefit if you could send your fleet to Wes.
I agree that it would benefit you greatly - but I wouldn't get Tun out
of it, so if I expect Raine to honor our DMZ then there's little reason
for me to break it.
> He will take Trieste, dislodge Eas, and there is little I can do.
You can take War or Mos, so you'll still have 5 centers. And if you
arrange for both Vie and Bud to be open (a little risky, but perhaps
worth a shot), you can disband F Eas when it's dislodged and build two
armies. You could then hold out for quite some time, and if you are
able to thwart Raine in the south while I have success in the north, it
gives him an incentive to turn against me.
Rod
From - Sat Jan 26 19:14:13 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> Yes, but it's also in my best interests to see him push east rather than
> come after me - particularly if I have to deal with G/R in the north.
There will be little his fleets can do other than to come after you once
my fleet is destroyed.
> > He will take Trieste, dislodge Eas, and there is little I can do.
>
> You can take War or Mos, so you'll still have 5 centers. And if you
> arrange for both Vie and Bud to be open (a little risky, but perhaps
> worth a shot), you can disband F Eas when it's dislodged and build two
> armies. You could then hold out for quite some time, and if you are
> able to thwart Raine in the south while I have success in the north, it
> gives him an incentive to turn against me.
I anticipate that Italy will support Russia to Rumania.
In summary, the sooner I am gone, the sooner you will have to face
Italy. Why not ensure that when you have to confront Italy, you are up
to full strength? It seems the longer my elimination is prolonged, the
better off you are.
Austria
From - Sat Jan 26 19:14:22 2002
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: S1909R Tue Jan 29 2002 19:01:03 +1300
Retreat orders for Spring of 1909. (gutsy.035)
France: Army Belgium -> Picardy.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Movement for Fall of 1909.
The deadline for orders will be Wed Jan 30 2002 20:00:00 +1300.
