Spring 1908
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From - Wed Dec 12 23:27:40 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I am glad that you and Russia won't attack me know, but I
> am worried about Italy.
You've hit the nail on the head there. There's no more GR to attack you,
but Italy is still a concern; just like France is a concern to me. Rod's
talking 3-way so I think his move was designed to stir things up.
If Rod does come at me, though, I have the navy needed to fend him off.
Maybe we're back to an AG central axis kind of thing. OR, I'm quite willing
to talk AGI v FR. Raine has approached me with a similar proposition.
OR, maybe AFG is still a possibility. That seems harder for you so I'd
prefer working with you and Raine.
If you want to talk specifics, I'm here. Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Thu Dec 13 16:57:03 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> > Sorry about the attack against Pie. You should have told me that you are
> > leaving it. I would have left it open to your fleet if you had wanted to.
>
> Would you have believed me?
No :-) There has been so many broken promises. Human behaviour is odd
'cause now I am willing to believe you more ...
> Well, you told me not to *say* I would withdraw, but to just *do* it - so
> that's what I did.
I feel like a little boy who is teached by his grandfather :-)
You are right Rod. Actions are more reliable than words... From now on I'd
like to hear that good old diploming too.
> Anyway, now that you know my intent, I hope that you will withdraw from Pie
> so I can focus on Germany.
I will. Should we now start to talk about R's once again :-) I mean, to me
it certainly looks like a chance to form FRI also known as the R's :-)
(
For some reason that reminds me about the old
'We are the Rods,
We are the Rods
Weeee are wee are we are the Rods'
Was it Rods who had the scooters in 70's? Or did they have the
motorcycles? I am too young to actually remember this stuff but I have
seen some movies or something :-)
)
But back to FRI. Do you think we have a chance of co-operation? I do.
Afterall, Russia is weak and vulnerable. Is there a chance of freeing Lyo,
Wes, Naf, Pie to make our border peaceful?
Raine
From - Thu Dec 13 16:57:07 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> > Sorry about the attack against Pie. You should have told me that you are
> > leaving it. I would have left it open to your fleet if you had wanted to.
>
> Would you have believed me?
No :-) There has been so many broken promises. Human behaviour is odd
'cause now I am willing to believe you more ...
> Well, you told me not to *say* I would withdraw, but to just *do* it - so
> that's what I did.
I feel like a little boy who is teached by his grandfather :-)
You are right Rod. Actions are more reliable than words... From now on I'd
like to hear that good old diploming too.
> Anyway, now that you know my intent, I hope that you will withdraw from Pie
> so I can focus on Germany.
I will. Should we now start to talk about R's once again :-) I mean, to me
it certainly looks like a chance to form FRI also known as the R's :-)
(
For some reason that reminds me about the old
'We are the Rods,
We are the Rods
Weeee are wee are we are the Rods'
Was it Rods who had the scooters in 70's? Or did they have the
motorcycles? I am too young to actually remember this stuff but I have
seen some movies or something :-)
)
But back to FRI. Do you think we have a chance of co-operation? I do.
Afterall, Russia is weak and vulnerable. Is there a chance of freeing Lyo,
Wes, Naf, Pie to make our border peaceful?
Raine
From - Thu Dec 13 16:57:10 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
You have the copy of my mail to Rod :-) I am embarrassed.
> France is urging me to attack you and leave Russia alone. Is he doing
> the same for you?
There has been (so far empty) talks about FRI. My motivation has been
clear : to get rid of the stalemate in Med. But oddly France has not asked
me to attack you :-| I have told him that I want to dislodge the Ionian
fleet but nothing more.
> I'll respond to your message soon. As far as attacking people, we should
> probably wait until they are fully engaged with the enemy, although
> Russia would be easy pickins now. It might be advantageous for us to
> look like we are, or will be attacking each other. Germany is now trying
> to woo back France with offers of Beligum, and I think he will just take
> Norway from Russia. If France feels like you are a threat to him, he may
> withdraw from Germany quickly.
France can turn back immediately that is true.
> I don't know how best to go about this, though. What do you think?
Well, there is one thing we have not discussed about. I am not sure if I
am ready to go for it but let's discuss about it. Ion-Tun?!? I'd like to
get Greece for example as return. This might be crazy idea but let's at
least talk about it. Austrian fleet is usually considered to be quite
useless.
I'll respond to your other mail immediately. I want to send this ASAP due
to my 'message failure'.
Raine
From - Thu Dec 13 16:57:05 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Ok, I haven't heard a word from Steve. Rod is talking to me but mainly
chit chat (is that the correct way to say that you are talking something
not serious?).
> I have been lobbying them for some time, though I don't know how
> effective I was.
I cannot take too much credits from this. My diploming might have been a
minor factor in Adam's decision making but I certainly had no impact to
Rod's decision. So thanks to you the stalemate in Med is gone for a
moment.
> Of course, any notion that we were at war would be dispelled when I
> disbanded the fleet. I would be happy to retreat it to Greece or
> somewhere, but I am assuming you'd like me to disband it.
I'd like you to dispand it. I understand that the dispand would tell
others that it is arranged. So _if_ FRG are battling they would make
spring moves and spring retreats while they think that AI is at war. I
have made it clear that I'll attack Ionian Sea.
> I would prefer to disband it in a Fall move if at all possible.
I understand. The problem is that if you retreat to Greece I am not able
to dislodge it again. Well, I could move in a way to be able to do it but
it would take a huge amount of time get attacking France after that.
> The only think I am concerned about is your army in Bulgaria. I'd like
> to see that gone as soon as possible. I would be happy to disband my
> fleet after a Spring move if your army were not in Bulgaria. If you
> dislodged it but wanted to keep your army in Bul, then I would also be
> happy to retreat to Greece. This would cause more friction between us,
> of course, but it might be more workable if you prefer your army in place.
I am ready to move away from Bulgaria. It is not a problem. Then you
should feel more secure to dispand the fleet.
> I think we should wait too. He's probably not going to get many builds,
> and the more he trusts us, the easier it will be to stab him later.
Yes, that is what I thought too. We could dislodge Sevastopol but I'd hate
to see him retreating to Armenia.
> Yes, but you may be able to negotiate with Germany to help you. Don't
> you think?
My problem is that Steve is not answering to my mails. That is essential
to make co-operation. Is he talking to you?
> Yes, we should evict Germany from Tyrolia and Bohemia as soon as
> possible. In order to make France and Russia happy, I think I could
> occupy Bohemia and Tyrolia and then shift up towards Warsaw at the right
> time (the same time you move against France).
I like the idea of timing our attacs so that I attack France and you
attack Russia at the same time. That should give us the security we need
in our border. Do you want me to support you to Tyrolia?
> I didn't know anyone had e-mail problems. When I saw the extension, I
> figured that France and Russia needed more time to coordinate their
> efforts and hammer out some sort of agreement.
There was a broadcast from Roger. I don't think it is a good reason to get
a deadline extension to be able to coordinate efforts. One should be
always able to diplome before the deadline. Maybe someone had a real
reason, I don't know.
About spring:
Do you think it is possible for us to change Tunis to Greece (or to
Trieste)? I fully understand if you think this is a bad idea. I am just
trying to figure out the possibilities to make your fleet in Ionian a
strenght, not a weakening, to our alliance. There is also a possibility to
continue Ion-Tun-Naf/Wes if you don't like to change supplies.
Raine
From - Thu Dec 13 16:57:14 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Bad news :-( I accidentally sent the last note to you _and_ to Austria.
I am sorry. Now I really feel like a stupid naughty little boy.
I am ashamed.
At least there were no secrets in there. I really want to apologize. There
were quotations from your last note to me. It is _excatly_ the same note
you got from me that went to Austria.
Feel free to send me to deepest h***.
If there is a way we could turn this to our advantage please let me know.
Raine who feels like stupid, stupid, stupid, ...
From - Thu Dec 13 16:57:08 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Master in 'gutsy':
> Let me remind and encourage you to write EOY messages. I am sure that
> the readers would want to hear what everyone was thinking during this
> year (as well as every year).
Well, as you can see France and I have decided that our path
lies towards Germany rather than towards Italy or Austria
for now. My main reasons are the ones that Kieth rightly
pointed out to me: Steve will not allow me into a draw becasue
he has no need to do so. He could take my centers at any time
so the only way I could get an advantage in that battle was
to get France to help me out and jump in with a surprise attack.
Will it work? I don't know, but I'm sure it's got a higher
chance of seeing myself in a draw (or even the very unlikely
at this stage solo) than helping Germany take Vie and Tri
before he takes War and Nwy and StP letting Italy have
Sev and who know's who'd have Mos.
Before I could do this though, I had to convince myself that
Italy and Austria would fight each other should France and I
back off rather than settle back into a stalemate line and
perhaps take Sev from me at the very least. Their messages to
me and Rod were very similar: Move against Germany and I'll
fight Italy/Austria. So similar in which moves they demanded
that we suspected collusion between them. Still not entirely
convinced, we'll find out in the spring moves if Keith and
Raine attack each other I guess.
Adam..........
From - Thu Dec 13 16:57:13 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> That's the way to do it :-) Thank you, thank you, thank you! I am so happy
> that you talked to France to get away from Med. What can I do to help you?
What you promised to do basically, now that you have the chance
you can take Gre, maybe Rum.
> I hope you are delighted about the fact that there is only one fleet left
> in Black Sea area.
I'll leave delight until you have no fleets in the black
sea area and just settle for reasonably pleased for now.
I guess that Bla - Bul will be a good move this spring so
maybe delighted after that.
Let's see if we can't get Germany and Austria eliminated.
After that my guess is that it'll be looking fairly drawlike,
but there's a good chance we'd have to do some work to
prevent a French solo. Try not to let your line against
France suffer too much as you take Austria apart.
> Have you had the problems that caused the deadline extension? I ask
> because I have not got a message from you for awhile.
I didn't ask for the extention. I have a suspicion that it was
Keith who asked after I used the deadline's aproach as an excuse
for not having enough time to talk France into these moves
until next Spring (when we were planning to make them). Turns
out that it was better for us last phase anyway so the extention
helped that, but I can't be sure what happened.
We should think about Bul/Bla supporting me into Rum in
the fall, but for the spring I think that a hold in Sev
will be my best option. Any other ideas for cooperation
to eliminate Austria? I'm afraid that most of my efforts
will have to go against Germany for the time being.
Adam..........
From - Thu Dec 13 16:57:17 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I am of course pleased to see the move results. I think Germany will be
> in quite a bit of trouble. I can destroy his army in Bohmeia in the
> Spring, if you wish.
Mostly I'd like to see Gal emtpied and DMZed, and the
army in Boh has a realistic retreat unto Mun doesn't it?
Right now I'm thinking that A Boh is better than A Mun
for me since Boh can't support Berlin from where it
is but once it retreated it quite possibly could.
> Do you have any sense of Italy's intentions?
Not a great deal of one, he's been saying to France that
if France withdrew from the Med he'd like to get his own
fleet into Ion and he'd like to take Gre. I guess he can
do both of those this spring, though he'd risk Bul if
he tried it exactly like that.
Adam.........
From - Thu Dec 13 16:57:18 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
Well, everything went according to plan. Now we just have to
see the spring moves to tell if the plan was the right one :)
Austria and Italy have both written to me thanking me for my
moves (and talking you into yours(!?)) and suggesting that they
intend to fight each other. I think we should play the diplomacy
very carefully with them both because it's important that we
spread distrust between the two camps. I've told Austria that
Italy had told us he intended to take Ion and Gre, and I'll
be telling Italy that Austria has his eyes in Bul this year.
If they end up trusting each other then our moves could prove
to have been a mistake, though I think they'll probably fight
anyway to be honest.
Assuming they do, what are our plans in Germany? It's clear
that I'll be loosing Norway if I do anything other than support
StP into it which makes F Nth pretty useless unless I can
get a center to replace Nwy this year.
Specific moves are more akward than I'd hoped they'd be.
Munich, Belgium and Berlin are our obvious targets. Out
of those only Bel can be guarenteed I think. It's clear
that Germany is in trouble, but it's still going to be
a fight for a few moves I think. At first glance, I've no
real ideas apart from the obvious ones, Eng/Nth/Bur
can attack Bel, Bur/Sil can attack Mun, War can move
to Pru, StP to Nwy with support from Nth. Clearly we
can't do all those at once but they're basically the
options we have this spring.
Do you have any preferences, or jokers up your sleeve?
Adam..........
From - Thu Dec 13 16:57:20 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Again! LOL
Yeah, sorry again. I think that France and I became convinced
that Raine and Keith will fight each other once we pulled back
would be the main thing, but also there was no way you'd really
have let me survive once Austria was disabled was there?
> Really, no hard feelings here. If we can work this out, great. If not, one
> of us is going to get pretty small, pretty fast. I'll probably rebuild in
> Berlin and cross my fingers next year.
I'm not convinced that I'll win a battle with you, far from it,
however I suspect that I'm more likely to win against you and
then get into a draw than I am to get into a draw if I fight
with you until you decided it was time to stab me.
As for whether I made the right choice, we'll know that when
we see if Austria and Italy fall back into a stalemate or if
they start to fight each other or if they take Sev I guess.
Good luck.
Adam...............
From - Thu Dec 13 16:57:22 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Russia in 'gutsy':
Testing this thing, I haven't recieved email
replys from the last five messages I sent out!
Yet the openingslist has had no trouble at all.
Adam........
From - Thu Dec 13 16:57:24 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I am talking to Keith and trying to convince him to disband the fleet when
I dislodge it. I don't know if Keith will accept it but that would be very
good for me :-) I have to tell him how good alliance we have had so far.
I certainly don't want him to retreat to Adr for example it would be in
good place there to defend his home from any aggression from my part.
> I'll leave delight until you have no fleets in the black
> sea area and just settle for reasonably pleased for now.
> I guess that Bla - Bul will be a good move this spring so
> maybe delighted after that.
Bla-Bul?? I cannot see the idea. Could you clarify? Would you support me
there or what?
> Let's see if we can't get Germany and Austria eliminated.
> After that my guess is that it'll be looking fairly drawlike,
> but there's a good chance we'd have to do some work to
> prevent a French solo. Try not to let your line against
> France suffer too much as you take Austria apart.
We should be careful to not give Rod a chance for solo. You have to be
careful to not lose a center in west. What is the final word according to
Belgium?
> I didn't ask for the extention. I have a suspicion that it was
> Keith who asked after I used the deadline's aproach as an excuse
> for not having enough time to talk France into these moves
> until next Spring (when we were planning to make them). Turns
> out that it was better for us last phase anyway so the extention
> helped that, but I can't be sure what happened.
I don't think it was Keith. Keith has used 'set absence' before and he
could have done it that way.
> We should think about Bul/Bla supporting me into Rum in
> the fall, but for the spring I think that a hold in Sev
> will be my best option. Any other ideas for cooperation
> to eliminate Austria? I'm afraid that most of my efforts
> will have to go against Germany for the time being.
Well, I think I'd like to leave one unit in Armenia. For security reasons.
I have no problem if you want to leave a unit in Sevastopol too. In the
long run it would be good for us to DMZ as much common border as possible.
Does it make any difference to you if I go to Armenia with fleet or army?
About Fall, to me it is too early to talk about fall :-) I feel like I am
not sure what is true and what is fake. The spring moves will tell a lot
about what is _really_ going on. If things are what they look like then I
think I am able to give you some support.
Raine
From - Thu Dec 13 16:57:42 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Austria and Italy have both written to me thanking me for my
> moves (and talking you into yours(!?)) and suggesting that they
> intend to fight each other.
We could supply added incentive for A/I strife by offering one (or both) of them
help. If you assist Raine against Austria or I assist Keith against Italy, they're
sure to attack each other. OTOH, if there's no pressure, they could potentially make up
their differences and unite against us. Unfortunately, the fight with Germany will be
difficult enough that we can't afford to divert much force toward A/I struggles.
> It's clear
> that I'll be loosing Norway if I do anything other than support
> StP into it which makes F Nth pretty useless unless I can
> get a center to replace Nwy this year.
I think Nth S StP-Nwy is a good idea. It forces G to allocate all three fleets to
taking Nwy if he wants it. F Nth is also very helpful to me in that it keeps Germany
from easily advancing to Nth. Now we just need to find a way for *you* to benefit
from it.
> Do you have any preferences, or jokers up your sleeve?
I've been pondering whether I should take Bel in the Spring or convoy Lon-Pic first
(while trying something devious like Mar-Bur, Bur-Ruh). If I can get into Ruh it
cracks Germany wide open, but Lon-Pic leaves me with only one English army to protect Edi
and Lon if Germany makes it into Nth. Maybe I should do MAO-Eng, Eng-Bel, Bur-Ruh,
Mar-Bur, then support you to Hol in the Fall.
In the east you could do Sil S War-Pru. Germany might try to thwart it with Boh-Sil,
Ber-Pru, but that risks Sil-Ber. A better move for him is Ber S Boh-Sil. You could
try Sil-Mun to bounce Tyl-Mun along with War-Pru, then retreat Sil to War.
What do you think?
Rod
From - Thu Dec 13 16:57:44 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> Should we now start to talk about R's once again :-) I mean, to me
> it certainly looks like a chance to form FRI also known as the R's :-)
Sounds good to me! :-) I'll leave it to you and Adam to coordinate your attack on
Austria.
> Was it Rods who had the scooters in 70's?
Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about.
> Is there a chance of freeing Lyo,
> Wes, Naf, Pie to make our border peaceful?
Yes, I think that's a good idea. I'll move Mar-Bur, Lyo-Mar.
> Bad news :-( I accidentally sent the last note to you _and_ to Austria.
Oops! I don't think it will be a big deal, particularly if he was already suspicious
of you anyway.
> If there is a way we could turn this to our advantage please let me know.
Well, if it makes Keith nervous, perhaps he'll make some sort of mistake. We'll see....
Rod
From - Fri Dec 14 05:18:33 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Ok, I haven't heard a word from Steve. Rod is talking to me but mainly
> chit chat (is that the correct way to say that you are talking something
> not serious?).
Yes, that's right. Chit chat.
> I'd like you to dispand it. I understand that the dispand would tell
> others that it is arranged. So _if_ FRG are battling they would make
> spring moves and spring retreats while they think that AI is at war. I
> have made it clear that I'll attack Ionian Sea.
I am willing to disband the fleet if you move out of Bulgaria at the same
time. How about that?
> I am ready to move away from Bulgaria. It is not a problem. Then you
> should feel more secure to dispand the fleet.
Can you move it in the Spring? Where will you move it?
> Yes, that is what I thought too. We could dislodge Sevastopol but I'd hate
> to see him retreating to Armenia.
You could convoy the army to Armenia, I suppose. Armenia is a security
risk you'll want to close at some point anyway. You could tell RUssia
babout it, and tall him you're moving Bla out the next turn.
> My problem is that Steve is not answering to my mails. That is essential
> to make co-operation. Is he talking to you?
Germany is sending me messages. He wants me to attack Russia. Nothing
specific, and he's not offering any help.
> I like the idea of timing our attacs so that I attack France and you
> attack Russia at the same time. That should give us the security we need
> in our border. Do you want me to support you to Tyrolia?
Sure, if you have nothing better to do with Venice. I'm not sure what to
move there yet.
> Do you think it is possible for us to change Tunis to Greece (or to
> Trieste)? I fully understand if you think this is a bad idea. I am just
> trying to figure out the possibilities to make your fleet in Ionian a
> strenght, not a weakening, to our alliance. There is also a possibility to
> continue Ion-Tun-Naf/Wes if you don't like to change supplies.
I want to own someting that is defensible, and I dn't think Tunis is it.
As long as I don't have a fleet, there's no reason for you to take
Greece, is there? I really need another supply center, and I don't want
to lose another one right now (I've already given away what I can).
Hopefully I can get Munich, or else I'll have to wait until we attack F/R.
Austria
From - Fri Dec 14 05:18:44 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Thanks for your note.
Ok, I'll talk with Adam about how to handle Austria. WE should talk about
how to handle the space between us. I do believe that Tyrolia is going to
be dislodged. It means if you move Bur-Mun it leaves Tyrolia _very_
vulnerable to destruction. I understand that you might be more willing to
use Bur to decide the fate of Belgium. But think about it. Could you tell
me what is the plan for Belgium?
> > Was it Rods who had the scooters in 70's?
>
> Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about.
It must have been in Britain in 70's when the youngster had 'gangs'. One
'gang' (I am not sure if gang is a right word) had scooters and (usually
green) jackets. Other gang had motorcycycles (not Harley Davidsons :-)
Can't recall which one called themselves Rods. They had a song we are the
rods... Maybe it was only in the movie... Nevermind, it is not important.
> > Is there a chance of freeing Lyo,
> > Wes, Naf, Pie to make our border peaceful?
>
> Yes, I think that's a good idea. I'll move Mar-Bur, Lyo-Mar.
With those moves it is not sure that Mar-Bur and Lyo-Mar will
succeed. It depends on what you do with Bur. I won't move Pie-Mar that is
for sure. I don't want to slow your retreat :-) Have I told you how
paranoid I am ? If not, then let me introduce myself: I can see (in my bad
dreams) that you can move back to Med as fast as you moved away from
there. That would be nasty. So let's put it this way, after next moves I
have the chance to trust you a lot more. I mean, last time you told me
your moves like you did above you moved in completely different way. I
do believe in you more now than in the past but I want you to know that I
do trust you a LOT more after next moves _if_ you move like you say you
will. Anyway we are once again in situation where you can decide our
future, no matter what you do I'll not move towards you. I'll concentrate
on Ionian Sea.
> > Bad news :-( I accidentally sent the last note to you _and_ to Austria.
>
> Oops! I don't think it will be a big deal, particularly if he was already
> suspicious of you anyway.
I am still ashamed. I feel like idiot. How did he show his suspiciousness?
> > If there is a way we could turn this to our advantage please let me know.
>
> Well, if it makes Keith nervous, perhaps he'll make some sort of mistake.
> We'll see....
Keith hasn't made mistakes so far...
Raine
From - Fri Dec 14 05:18:46 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
I am a bit disappointed. You did not mention a word of my stupidity or my
way of being an idiot or anything like that... To tell you the truth, I
was nervous to read your message after my inability to send mail to right
person.
I told Rod, that I send you a letter that was ment to be sent to Rod. I
want to be honest after I have acted like an idiot. Rod replied and told
me that you have been suspicious of me already so no real harm has
happend. Hmmm... Is this Rod's diploming true? I mean, are you _really_
worried of me. We have had such a good alliance so far. You have been
holding my 'soft spot' Ionian Sea. I would like to hear your opinion.
> I am willing to disband the fleet if you move out of Bulgaria at the same
> time. How about that?
I see your point. At the moment after I showed my stupidity to you and
Rod, I am looking for the safiest possible way to show you that I am on
your side. Maybe something like a set of moves that does not dislodge your
fleet in spring. I have to think about it.
> Can you move it in the Spring? Where will you move it?
The possibilities are Arm, Con and Smy. I can move it in spring. It spoils
the AI war image, though.
> > My problem is that Steve is not answering to my mails. That is essential
> > to make co-operation. Is he talking to you?
>
> Germany is sending me messages. He wants me to attack Russia. Nothing
> specific, and he's not offering any help.
This makes me nervous. I mean, Germany is a good player. What is the
reason to leave me out of the discussions?
> Sure, if you have nothing better to do with Venice. I'm not sure what to
> move there yet.
Ok. There is also a possibility that I support myself to Tyrolia. I am not
keen on doing that especially if you are suspicious of my goodwill.
> I want to own someting that is defensible, and I dn't think Tunis is it.
> As long as I don't have a fleet, there's no reason for you to take
> Greece, is there? I really need another supply center, and I don't want
> to lose another one right now (I've already given away what I can).
> Hopefully I can get Munich, or else I'll have to wait until we attack F/R.
Ok, let's forget about Tunis owned by Austria. I have no desire to get
Munich. It is yours.
Safe AI border and AI alliance(personal opinion):
-------------------------------------------------
I keep it simple and short,
-You take Venice from me with fleet
-I take Greece from you with fleet
So
Austrian fleet in Venice
Italian fleet in Greece
Italian fleet in Bulgaria (preferrably in south coast)
Italian army in Armenia
SC count would not change between us. I would have a good shot to attack
France with the rest of my units. Does this make any sense?
I want to underline that I have no desire to get Greece from you
otherwise. Only in above scenario.
Raine
From - Fri Dec 14 18:31:50 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> We could supply added incentive for A/I strife by offering
> one (or both) of them help. If you assist Raine against
> Austria or I assist Keith against Italy, they're sure to
> attack each other. OTOH, if there's no pressure, they could
> potentially make up their differences and unite against us.
> Unfortunately, the fight with Germany will be difficult enough
> that we can't afford to divert much force toward A/I struggles.
I've mentioned that A Sev might provide help to Italy, it's
harder for me to find a direct way to help Austria so I guess
you'll have to take care of that half over Venice.
> I think Nth S StP-Nwy is a good idea. It forces G to allocate
> all three fleets to taking Nwy if he wants it. F Nth is also
> very helpful to me in that it keeps Germany from easily advancing
> to Nth. Now we just need to find a way for *you* to benefit
> from it.
He probably will do Den - Nth anyway, so Ska and Swe on Nwy
would be pretty obvious. I'm going to have to hope that Berlin
will be the center that stops me having to disband I think,
unless Austria and Italy offer me Rum between them. Sil S War - Pru
will PROBABLY get me into Pru and Sil, but Mun will probably be
filled with A Tyr. That's not too bad if you can cut Mun's
support from Bur in the fall, should still be able to take Ber
and leave me on the same SC count. Again. Maybe make gains
next year or something?
> I've been pondering whether I should take Bel in the Spring
> or convoy Lon-Pic first (while trying something devious like
> Mar-Bur, Bur-Ruh). If I can get into Ruh it cracks Germany
> wide open, but Lon-Pic leaves me with only one English army
> to protect Edi and Lon if Germany makes it into Nth. Maybe
> I should do MAO-Eng, Eng-Bel, Bur-Ruh, Mar-Bur, then support
> you to Hol in the Fall.
All of those look okay to me. You're right to be careful about
the number of armies in England, there's a reasonably good chance
that Germany will knock me out of Nth even this spring if he
decides to leave Nwy until the fall. I think I probably would.
If I'm supporting StP to Nwy and he dislodges Nth then I can
retreat to NWG and we'll just have to cut Nth support to keep
Norway in the fall if he tries that. It will leave Edi and Lon
vunerable though. It would mean that I get an actual BUILD for
the first time in what seems like ages though.
> In the east you could do Sil S War-Pru. Germany might try to
> thwart it with Boh-Sil, Ber-Pru, but that risks Sil-Ber. A
> better move for him is Ber S Boh-Sil. You could try Sil-Mun
> to bounce Tyl-Mun along with War-Pru, then retreat Sil to War.
Not sure. I guess we could try Bur S Sil - Mun, it at the
very least forces Germany to use Tyr AND Boh to keep Munich,
which seems to simpifly things. It's hard to guess what
Germany might do. I think I'd support myself into Mun and
Nwy, consolidate. Guessing his moves would definately help
sort our out. Do you think he'll cut Nth, support into Nwy
and support into Mun as I think? What about Berlin?
Adam............
From - Fri Dec 14 18:31:51 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I am talking to Keith and trying to convince him to disband the fleet when
> I dislodge it. I don't know if Keith will accept it but that would be very
> good for me :-) I have to tell him how good alliance we have had so far.
> I certainly don't want him to retreat to Adr for example it would be in
> good place there to defend his home from any aggression from my part.
Gre would be where I'd retreat to if I were him. I think he'll
be in Tyr in the fall, which gives him two against Venice.
Be careful what you do with A Pie, it'll need to support Ven
in the fall.
> Bla-Bul?? I cannot see the idea. Could you clarify? Would you support me
> there or what?
I thought that you might want to move Bul - Gre or Bul - Ser,
if you did that then you'd want to cover Bul to make sure Rum
didn't take it, I assumed Bla would be the better unit since
Aeg wants to take on F Ion. That's a lot of assumptions actually,
I should have been more clear.
> We should be careful to not give Rod a chance for solo. You have to be
> careful to not lose a center in west. What is the final word according to
> Belgium?
Bel will be English, almost for sure. I'm looking to getting
Berlin, Swe, Den. Possibly Munich. Kie if I push hard and
don't make any mistakes. I'd have a hard time making a permament
claim on either of the lowlands.
> Well, I think I'd like to leave one unit in Armenia. For security reasons.
Akward, Arm threatens Sev. It'd be much better if you have a unit
in Ank and perhaps a fleet in Smy.
> I have no problem if you want to leave a unit in Sevastopol too.
I'll definately be doing that as long as there's a unit in Bla/Arm/Rum.
> In the long run it would be good for us to DMZ as much common border
> as possible. Does it make any difference to you if I go to Armenia
> with fleet or army?
Well, your fleet's a lot closer. If you convoyed Bul over there
I'd think you a fool for giving Bul to Austria just when he's
thinking of taking it anyway, and wonder why you left Con
so undefended too.
> About Fall, to me it is too early to talk about fall :-) I feel like I am
> not sure what is true and what is fake. The spring moves will tell a lot
> about what is _really_ going on. If things are what they look like then I
> think I am able to give you some support.
I'm sure that France and I have decided to go after Germany, I'm
pretty sure that Austria will want to kick Germany out of Boh and
Tyr, then the easiest centers for him will be Bul and Ven, though
he could take Sev with your help first it would be foolish to
distract me from Germany for the sake of the one center he
could get that way.
I think you need to make sure you're as stab-proof from Austria
as possible, then consider taking Gre. Man, are we back to this?
I seem to remember suggesting you take Gre a few times before :)
Adam.........
From - Fri Dec 14 18:31:53 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Russia in 'gutsy':
So? Where did my press to F get lost at?
Pre..........
From - Fri Dec 14 18:32:02 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi, I have to prepare for my thesis dfense later today, so just a brief
not for now.
> I am a bit disappointed. You did not mention a word of my stupidity or my
> way of being an idiot or anything like that... To tell you the truth, I
> was nervous to read your message after my inability to send mail to right
> person.
I would hope you would be negotiating with France. It would be stupid
not to. You didn't say anything too damaging anyway.
> I told Rod, that I send you a letter that was ment to be sent to Rod. I
> want to be honest after I have acted like an idiot. Rod replied and told
> me that you have been suspicious of me already so no real harm has
> happend. Hmmm... Is this Rod's diploming true? I mean, are you _really_
> worried of me. We have had such a good alliance so far. You have been
> holding my 'soft spot' Ionian Sea. I would like to hear your opinion.
I have been telling France that, yes. I've been emphasizing it to him
more than I really feel worried. I am worried that if someone is going
to attack me, it would be you. I think we can get along without
attacking each other, and this is my preference.
> The possibilities are Arm, Con and Smy. I can move it in spring. It spoils
> the AI war image, though.
It does, but I don't think anyone will attack us. It is too dangerous
that we could ally with Germany (which is a good plan). As long as we
make some agressive moves against them in the Spring it should be okay.
This is the break we've needed.
As for Germany, have you been sending him messages?
> Ok. There is also a possibility that I support myself to Tyrolia. I am not
> keen on doing that especially if you are suspicious of my goodwill.
Let's look at that. I don't know what's best.
> Safe AI border and AI alliance(personal opinion):
> -------------------------------------------------
> I keep it simple and short,
> -You take Venice from me with fleet
> -I take Greece from you with fleet
> So
> Austrian fleet in Venice
> Italian fleet in Greece
> Italian fleet in Bulgaria (preferrably in south coast)
> Italian army in Armenia
>
> SC count would not change between us. I would have a good shot to attack
> France with the rest of my units. Does this make any sense?
>
> I want to underline that I have no desire to get Greece from you
> otherwise. Only in above scenario.
That looks okay. More later.
Austria
From - Fri Dec 14 19:52:09 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> I guess we could try Bur S Sil - Mun, it at the
> very least forces Germany to use Tyr AND Boh to keep Munich,
> which seems to simpifly things. It's hard to guess what
> Germany might do. I think I'd support myself into Mun and
> Nwy, consolidate. Guessing his moves would definately help
> sort our out. Do you think he'll cut Nth, support into Nwy
> and support into Mun as I think? What about Berlin?
It's hard to say. He might very well try Ber S Tyl-Mun. At least if he is worried
about Mun, that will let you into Pru.
Raine wants me to pull out of Lyo, and then supposedly he'll go after Austria. I'd
like to do Lyo-Mar so I can still keep two fleets in the Med theater, but then I'd
have to do Mar-Gas if Bur S Sil-Mun. That seems far from ideal.
I think it might be best to go with a sure thing and do Eng S Bur-Bel, Mar-Bur, Lyo-Mar.
Then I can support you into Hol and also cut Mun's support in the Fall.
If Germany does force Nwy in the Spring, you're guaranteed to get Hol in the Fall.
If he knocks you out of Nth first, you could retreat to Hel and still try for Hol,
but G could cut my support from Nth.
Rod
From - Fri Dec 14 19:52:10 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> With those moves it is not sure that Mar-Bur and Lyo-Mar will
> succeed.
I am still finalizing the details with Adam, but I am confident that Lyo-Mar will
succeed. I will probably also move MAO-NAO. I trust that meets with your approval. :-)
> I do believe in you more now than in the past but I want you to know that I
> do trust you a LOT more after next moves _if_ you move like you say you will.
I understand. I will move as I have indicated, and I hope that you will withdraw
from Pie and capture Gre this year.
Rod
From - Sat Dec 15 14:30:12 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> OR, maybe AFG is still a possibility. That seems harder for you so I'd
> prefer working with you and Raine.
>
> If you want to talk specifics, I'm here. Write when you can.
RIght now, AGI looks better to me. I need to get Italy's units away
from me. Once this happens, there will be more possibilities. What do
you have in mind? You can't hold off both Russia and France for very
long. I can't really attack Russia until Italy withdraws some of his
units away from me.
Austria
From - Sat Dec 15 14:30:13 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> Mostly I'd like to see Gal emtpied and DMZed, and the
> army in Boh has a realistic retreat unto Mun doesn't it?
> Right now I'm thinking that A Boh is better than A Mun
> for me since Boh can't support Berlin from where it
> is but once it retreated it quite possibly could.
I am sure that Germany is going to pull back his forces to Munich. Both
Tyrolia and Bohemia can't go to Munich at the same time, of course, so
perhaps one of them can be destroyed. I am willing to keep Galacia
clear. Are you willing in return to support Rumania holding so that
Italy is not tempted to take it? I assume that Sev isn't doing something
else.
> Not a great deal of one, he's been saying to France that
> if France withdrew from the Med he'd like to get his own
> fleet into Ion and he'd like to take Gre. I guess he can
> do both of those this spring, though he'd risk Bul if
> he tried it exactly like that.
He seems to want Greece. I would like him to move his army out of
Bulgaria. It's a thorn in my side that prevents me from moving too many
forces against Germany. I don't want to leave my home centers too far
open. You know what happened last time.
Austria
From - Sun Dec 16 13:16:35 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> I am still finalizing the details with Adam, but I am confident that Lyo-Mar
> will succeed. I will probably also move MAO-NAO. I trust that meets
> with your approval. :-)
Mao-Nao would be a good move toward FI happiness :-)
> I understand. I will move as I have indicated, and I hope that you will
> withdraw from Pie and capture Gre this year.
It all depends on Keith's possible retreat. I have no idea about his
intentions.
You did not answer to my two questions. Could you?
1) How Keith showed his suspiciousness?
2) Belgium?
Raine
From - Sun Dec 16 13:16:37 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> Gre would be where I'd retreat to if I were him. I think he'll
> be in Tyr in the fall, which gives him two against Venice.
> Be careful what you do with A Pie, it'll need to support Ven
> in the fall.
I see. Do you think Keith will attack Tyrolia from Vienna or Trieste?
> I thought that you might want to move Bul - Gre or Bul - Ser,
> if you did that then you'd want to cover Bul to make sure Rum
> didn't take it, I assumed Bla would be the better unit since
> Aeg wants to take on F Ion. That's a lot of assumptions actually,
> I should have been more clear.
If Aeg takes Ionian Sea Keith will retreat to Eas and take Smyrna in the
fall. I certainly do not want that.
> Bel will be English, almost for sure. I'm looking to getting
> Berlin, Swe, Den. Possibly Munich. Kie if I push hard and
> don't make any mistakes. I'd have a hard time making a permament
> claim on either of the lowlands.
You mean Bel will be French? Also I meant it in the near future. You must
have some co-operation according to Bel and Mun, right?
> I'll definately be doing that as long as there's a unit in Bla/Arm/Rum.
I'd do that if I were you, too.
> I'm sure that France and I have decided to go after Germany, I'm
> pretty sure that Austria will want to kick Germany out of Boh and
> Tyr, then the easiest centers for him will be Bul and Ven, though
> he could take Sev with your help first it would be foolish to
> distract me from Germany for the sake of the one center he
> could get that way.
Autria needs your help to be able to kick Germany out of _both_ Tyrolia
and Bohemia. Have you promised your support to Austria? I won't help
Austria against Sevastopol.
> I think you need to make sure you're as stab-proof from Austria
> as possible, then consider taking Gre. Man, are we back to this?
> I seem to remember suggesting you take Gre a few times before :)
I am thinking of the best way to be safe against _any_ attack. It seems to
be a hard task but I'll do my best. And no we are not back there :-)
I would like to hear your prediction of Germany's intentions. Could you
spend some time and write it to me?
Raine
From - Sun Dec 16 13:16:38 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> Hi, I have to prepare for my thesis dfense later today, so just a brief
> not for now.
Ok, I'll look forward to your message.
> to attack me, it would be you. I think we can get along without
> attacking each other, and this is my preference.
It certainly is my preference too to no fight with you. I am just a little
worried about your expansion possibilities. You have to wait a moment to
attack Russia. Well, I need some time too to get to French centers. Russia
told me that you are heading to take Bulgaria from me.
> It does, but I don't think anyone will attack us. It is too dangerous
> that we could ally with Germany (which is a good plan). As long as we
> make some agressive moves against them in the Spring it should be okay.
> This is the break we've needed.
>
> As for Germany, have you been sending him messages?
Not lately. This bothers me. There is something going on that I am not
aware of. Could this whole thing be a big bluff from FGR to get us
fighting (I mean AI) ? Has Germany sent messages to you lately?
> > Ok. There is also a possibility that I support myself to Tyrolia. I am not
> > keen on doing that especially if you are suspicious of my goodwill.
>
> Let's look at that. I don't know what's best.
Me neither.
> That looks okay. More later.
I'll be listening.
Meanwhile I give you my latest version of how to handle Ionian Sea:
Aeg-Gre (*Bounce*)
Ion-Gre (*Bounce*)
Bul-Con
+I'd dislodge you from Ionian Sea.
I ask this because this would be a safe way for me to secure Bul a bit.
Would you dare to dispand Ionian in this situation?
Still, I believe that Ion-Tun is one good solution. I mean, if you trust
me, if you don't trust me then we are in troubles.
What is your opinion on how Bel and Mun are going to be handled in next
year?
Raine
From - Sun Dec 16 19:09:07 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
While I am still waiting for your reply I have some new set of moves to
continue. I have thought about the Ionian situation more now.
I have two worries or should I say two uncertainties (sp?).
1)Is FG faking the war? R is most likely in war against G but FG can
handle it.
2)Do you think I am a threat to you and you want to stab me before my
imaginative attack.
To prevent those I have a proposal. I don't want to leave Bulgaria
open. That is safe for me. I don't want to leave Armenia open. That is
safe for me, too. I want to dislodge you from Ionian Sea. I leave it up to
you if you dispand it or if you think I am a threat and you want to keep
it. My new proposal has one huge advantage, it makes others believe that
we are at war. It goes like this:
My 'attack' is
Aeg-Gre
Bul S Aeg-Gre
Your defence is Rum-Bul to cut the support
Ion-Gre to prevent me from entering to Greece.
Others would for sure think that we are in war, don't you think so?
I would also dislodge you from Ionian Sea. Then partly depending on French
moves and partly of your will you could decide if you dispand the fleet or
not. I would of course love to see a dispand.
Raine
From - Sun Dec 16 19:09:17 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Why did you tell Italy that I planned to attack Bulgaria? Can I trust
you not to pass on information? It seems my help against Germany is
essential to your progress, but I can't attack Germany if Italy still
poses a threat to me.
What is your relationship with Italy, and what moves do you want me to
make against Germany? I had planned to try to dislodged Bohemia and/or
Tyrolia.
Austria
From - Sun Dec 16 19:09:18 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> While I am still waiting for your reply I have some new set of moves to
> continue.
Sorry about the delay. As you know this was a busy time for me.
> I have thought about the Ionian situation more now.
> I have two worries or should I say two uncertainties (sp?).
> 1)Is FG faking the war? R is most likely in war against G but FG can
> handle it.
I don't know what France's intentions were. He will at least get Belgium
out of it. Perhaps then he will turn back against you, I don't know. He
has not given me any indications of his plans.
> 2)Do you think I am a threat to you and you want to stab me before my
> imaginative attack.
I am worried about your army in Bulgaria, and I have been for some time.
I didn't want you to put it there in the first place. I have been
supporting you against France, giving you the necessary supply centers
and my own units, and working towards a diplomatic solution to get France
to withdraw. All I ask in return is that you move your army away from
Bulgaria so that I will have the freedom to move my units North. I don't
want the supply center itself, just that your army is not there.
Everyone can see that Bulgaria is a tension point between us. I've
certainly told Russia this, as you know.
> To prevent those I have a proposal. I don't want to leave Bulgaria
> open. That is safe for me. I don't want to leave Armenia open. That is
> safe for me, too. I want to dislodge you from Ionian Sea. I leave it up to
> you if you dispand it or if you think I am a threat and you want to keep
> it. My new proposal has one huge advantage, it makes others believe that
> we are at war. It goes like this:
I want to have a situation between us that is mutually advantageous. I
know you have certain desires. I also have them. Your having an army in
Bulgaria is not good for our alliance. I wish you could put a fleet there.
> My 'attack' is
> Aeg-Gre
> Bul S Aeg-Gre
> Your defence is Rum-Bul to cut the support
> Ion-Gre to prevent me from entering to Greece.
> Others would for sure think that we are in war, don't you think so?
> I would also dislodge you from Ionian Sea. Then partly depending on French
> moves and partly of your will you could decide if you dispand the fleet or
> not. I would of course love to see a dispand.
What in your strategy prevents your taking Greece in the Fall?
And, what is it you are worried that I am going to do? The most damage I
could possibly to to you would involve my taking Bulgaria. If I managed
to do this, what would I do next? None of your other supply centers are
at risk from Austrian attack. You could hold me off with an army in Con
and a fleet in Smy. I need two or three fleets before your Turkish
holdings beocme vulnerable.
And, speaking of Bulgaria, the way I remember it was that it was a loan
to you so that you could build the necessary fleet you needed to defend
against France. Our alliance against Turkey, then Russia clearly tried
to keep our number of supply centers equal. You were to get all of the
Turkish centers, and I was to get Greece, Bulgaria and Rumania. Now
instead, you have 8 supply centers where I only have 6.
Let's have it. Do you want to end this alliance now? I don't want to
keep living in distrust like this, your worried that I am going to attack
you. I feel like you are trying to deceive me at worst, and at best you
certainly have not offered me Bulgaria back.
If we go to war, the first thing that will happen is that the vultures
will swoop in. Germany is already trying to woo France back, and has
offered him Belgium. France would only need minor convincing to turn
back around and finally get some Italian supply centers this time. I
certainly don't want him to have them, but if you're going to attack me,
I would of course try to extend my life as long as possible even if it
meant that France would likely win the game.
I want to see an AGI alliance. I think we all have a lot to
gain--Germany his survival, and our gain of supply centers. But, I'm not
going to have any part of it unless we settle this Bulgaria situation
right now.
Looking at the map, it seems to me the best way to keep the peace between
us is for you to move Bul-Con and Aeg-Ion to dislodge me. Your proposal
militarizes the border between us and only increases the tension further.
Austria
From - Sun Dec 16 19:09:41 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
There is now some tension between Italy and me. I don't know how this is
going to work out. My preference is an AGI alliance, but Italy does not
seem to want to decrease the tension between us in the Balkans. I can't
promise any help against Russia until my situation with Italy is resolved.
Austria
From - Mon Dec 17 08:11:24 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> Sorry about the delay. As you know this was a busy time for me.
No problem. As long as you reply to my mails I am happy.
> I am worried about your army in Bulgaria, and I have been for some time.
> I didn't want you to put it there in the first place. I have been
> supporting you against France, giving you the necessary supply centers
> and my own units, and working towards a diplomatic solution to get France
> to withdraw. All I ask in return is that you move your army away from
> Bulgaria so that I will have the freedom to move my units North. I don't
> want the supply center itself, just that your army is not there.
> Everyone can see that Bulgaria is a tension point between us. I've
> certainly told Russia this, as you know.
If we forget the few years after start you have had the chance to stab me
and not the other way around. I do appreciate your actions so far. There
is no bad word I could say. Our alliance has been perfect from my point of
view and I hope you have enjoyed it too. I didn't want to make you more
worried with my last note. My point was that your expansion (now that it
is possible) route is the easiest against me. Bul and Ven are my weak
points. I have been open to you for whole game. I wanted you to know my
fears. That is why I proposed what I did. It was _only_ a proposal. Now
when I know your reply I can forget the proposal. I will not force you to
do something you don't want to do.
> I want to have a situation between us that is mutually advantageous. I
> know you have certain desires. I also have them. Your having an army in
> Bulgaria is not good for our alliance. I wish you could put a fleet there.
Ok, I see. So can we agree that Bulgaria is not needed to be open in order
to dispand your fleet. It is enough that there is no army. If this is the
case then please forgive me my attitude. For some reason I thought you
want Bulgaria to be empty.
> What in your strategy prevents your taking Greece in the Fall?
Keith, sorry about this. Let's forget that plan.
> And, what is it you are worried that I am going to do? The most damage I
> could possibly to to you would involve my taking Bulgaria. If I managed
> to do this, what would I do next? None of your other supply centers are
> at risk from Austrian attack. You could hold me off with an army in Con
> and a fleet in Smy. I need two or three fleets before your Turkish
> holdings beocme vulnerable.
I can see a scenario where I lose Venice. I can see it more clearly 'cause
Germany is silent. I agree that I have no proof of anything.
> Let's have it. Do you want to end this alliance now?
No, I don't want to end our alliance.
> If we go to war, the first thing that will happen is that the vultures
> will swoop in.
Like I said, I am not sure how true this FG war is. I _do_ understand that
AI war will bring French fleets back to Med. I don't want that.
> I want to see an AGI alliance. I think we all have a lot to
> gain--Germany his survival, and our gain of supply centers. But, I'm not
> going to have any part of it unless we settle this Bulgaria situation
> right now.
Keith, my proposal has been a (poor) tries to get this Bulgaria situation
settled. I have also a desire to be in AGI alliance.
> Looking at the map, it seems to me the best way to keep the peace between
> us is for you to move Bul-Con and Aeg-Ion to dislodge me. Your proposal
> militarizes the border between us and only increases the tension further.
I got your point. Could you answer me and tell me if you are going to
dislodge Ionian in case of fleet in Bulgaria (and that army in there is
moved to somewhere else than Gre/Ser/Rum)?
What will you order for Ionian?
Could also give me a reply to my previous proposal (I mean the one that
you have not commented about) ? There was a bounce in Greece and no army
in Bulgaria in that proposal.
Raine
From - Mon Dec 17 11:01:41 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
I know you are in a hurry. Still, I hope we can talk before the deadline.
Just in case of no communication I want to ask you to wait for my message
if I did dislodge you from Ionian Sea. I am not sure if I want you to
dispand the fleet, it depends a lot of the moves from others. Heck, I am
not even sure if I want to dislodge you.
I wonder if it is possible for you to move Ionian to Tunis? Then I could
dislodge you from there in fall. I don't know if I can get your reply
until just before the deadline. If that is the case and if you believe
that I am on your side and if you have nothing better to do with your
fleet I ask you to move to Tunis. There is not much difference in Ion Hold
and Ion-Tunis if I decide to dislodge you. But there is a difference if I
want to go against France with speed. While dislodging you from Tunis in
fall I'd move against France at the same time.
Anyway I hope you can give me a note and please let me know what you would
like me to do (I know that you want my army away from Bulgaria). Also if
you could give me a note of your intensions that would be great.
I'll submit my moves know and I'll set wait too. I am going to read my
mails before the deadline.
Raine
From - Mon Dec 17 15:35:16 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> How Keith showed his suspiciousness?
He has always said that he expects you to attack him when you have the opportunity.
> Belgium?
I think it's fairly likely that I will capture Belgium this year.
Rod
From - Mon Dec 17 15:35:29 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
I have entered the following:
eng s bur-bel
bur-bel
mar-bur
lyo-mar
spa h
edi h
lon h
mao-nao
I think we have a good chance of getting you into Hol or Ber in the Fall. And
hopefully Keith will move Gal-Bud, Bud-Ser so you don't have to worry about War.
Let me know if you'd like to discuss our options further.
Rod
From - Mon Dec 17 15:35:30 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> > I hope that you will
> > withdraw from Pie and capture Gre this year.
>
> It all depends on Keith's possible retreat.
A good move might be Aeg S Nap-Ion. If he retreats to Gre, you have Bul/Aeg/Ion
available to dislodge him. If he goes to Eas, you can cover Smy with Aeg, and the
other forces are available to attack Gre. (Or if Bla-Con in Spring, then that fleet can
protect Smy in the Fall while Bul/Aeg/Ion attack Gre.) Bul might be at risk, but Adam
could tap Rum to help protect it.
Of course, I'm assuming that you now trust me enough to aggressively attack Austria,
but consider that getting builds from Austria will improve your security and give you
less reason to be paranoid. :-)
Rod
From - Mon Dec 17 15:35:32 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> eng s bur-bel
> bur-bel
> mar-bur
> lyo-mar
> spa h
> edi h
> lon h
> mao-nao
>
> I think we have a good chance of getting you into Hol or Ber
> in the Fall. And hopefully Keith will move Gal-Bud, Bud-Ser
> so you don't have to worry about War.
Sounds good, Keith has asked me what I'd like him to do so
I'll suggest those moves to him. I'll send orders for
Nth S Stp - Nwy
Sil S War - Pru and
Sev H
Sorry for being so quiet this phase, haven't been near a computer
as much as usual, indeed I won't be until about a week into the
new year now. Might suggest a delay after this movement phase.
Adam...............
From - Mon Dec 17 15:35:33 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Why did you tell Italy that I planned to attack Bulgaria? Can I trust
> you not to pass on information? It seems my help against Germany is
> essential to your progress, but I can't attack Germany if Italy still
> poses a threat to me.
He asked me where I thought you'd attack him, so I looked at the
board and told him the only realistic answer I could think of.
You don't have the units to force Ven, what else could I tell
him? I guess I could have said I don't know, sorry if I've
blown anything for you.
> What is your relationship with Italy,
We're barely talking to be honest. Went though a spat a while
ago where he lied about his moves every turn so I just stopped
replying to him - no point when nothing that passes through
his hands is even remotely true. I started talking to him
again recently to check out what he'd do if I got France to
pull back. Didn't really believe him still, but France and I
thought we'd risk it since you said you'd fight him once
we backed off.
> and what moves do you want me to make against Germany?
> I had planned to try to dislodged Bohemia and/or Tyrolia.
I'd like to see Gal clear, as I mentioned before. Boh is
the obvious place for it to go so I'd be happy to see
Vie S Gal - Boh. As you said, there's a good chance Tyr
will retreat to Mun and thus force Boh to disband.
Sorry I've been quiet and brief this phase, I'm away from
my computer much of the time until a week or so into the
new year now. Probably ask for a break over Xmas after
this deadline if nobody minds.
I'm ordering Sev to support Rum, I think you asked for
that at some point.
Adam.............
From - Mon Dec 17 15:35:35 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Germany? I haven't really got a clue. I imagine he'll take
Norway from me this year, but spring of fall - who knows.
I guess that he'll be retreating to cover his centers now
that France and I have attacked, but your guess is almost
certainly more informed than mine is either way.
Adam............
From - Mon Dec 17 15:35:36 2001
Broadcast message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia in 'gutsy':
I'm happy for the phase to process in a few hours when
the deadline arrives, but I'm away from my machine a lot
now until a week into the new year. If it's okay with
everyone else I'd like to pause the game until around
the seventh after this deadline but it's a big delay so
I'll try and keep up if anyone objects.
Adam............
From - Mon Dec 17 15:35:37 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> I'd like to see Gal clear, as I mentioned before. Boh is
> the obvious place for it to go so I'd be happy to see
> Vie S Gal - Boh. As you said, there's a good chance Tyr
> will retreat to Mun and thus force Boh to disband.
>
> I'm ordering Sev to support Rum, I think you asked for
> that at some point.
Okay, that's great. We can help each other out here. If France supports
Sil-Mun, and I attack Boh and Tyr, then Bohemia should be destroyed. I
may be able to get Italy to support me to Tyrolia, or support him there.
This would destroy both German armies. What do you think?
Austria
From - Mon Dec 17 15:35:38 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Ok, I see. So can we agree that Bulgaria is not needed to be open in order
> to dispand your fleet. It is enough that there is no army. If this is the
> case then please forgive me my attitude. For some reason I thought you
> want Bulgaria to be empty.
My preference is to take Bulgaria back and end the loan, and to equalize
our numbers of supply centers. I remember that this was one of the points
that you were most interested in, making sure we both had the same number
of centers when possible. However, if you are going to move against
France, we can work something else out. The main concern is that you have
an army in Bulgaria. With the army there, I have to keep Serbia
protected, and I can't really move too many units towards Russia or
Germany.
> I can see a scenario where I lose Venice. I can see it more clearly 'cause
> Germany is silent. I agree that I have no proof of anything.
I suppose that is possible. What are you going to do about it? If AFG
cooperate against you, Venice is lost. I don't see why you would think I
would cooperate with FG now whereas I wouldn't cooperate with them last
turn or the turns before.
> No, I don't want to end our alliance.
Good, me neither.
> Keith, my proposal has been a (poor) tries to get this Bulgaria situation
> settled. I have also a desire to be in AGI alliance.
Do you think France will make a big move in the Spring, or do you think
he is waiting for something? Have you told him specific moves that you
would make against me? Or, has he insisted that you make certain moves?
> I got your point. Could you answer me and tell me if you are going to
> dislodge Ionian in case of fleet in Bulgaria (and that army in there is
> moved to somewhere else than Gre/Ser/Rum)?
If I am going to disband my F Ion, I need to have 100% confidence in
you. This would mean that you will have moved your units such that you
cannot easily attack me. A fleet in Bulgaria goes a long way towards
this goal.
> What will you order for Ionian?
I figured I would hold.
> Could also give me a reply to my previous proposal (I mean the one that
> you have not commented about) ? There was a bounce in Greece and no army
> in Bulgaria in that proposal.
Why do you want to bounce in Greece? I am not sure I am understanding.
Are you going to move more of your fleets East? You really want to take
Greece from me? If we bounce in Greece, and I disband the fleet, then
won't you just take Greece from me?
It seems to me that the best course between us for the long term is to
have you convoy Bul-Arm then move Bla-Bul/ec in the Fall. Aeg-Ion in the
Spring with support.
What are your thoughts?
Austria
From - Mon Dec 17 15:35:39 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I wonder if it is possible for you to move Ionian to Tunis?
No, I am not going to move Ion-Tun. I need to keep my fleet for defense,
and I will only disband it if you make peaceful moves towards me.
Austria
From - Mon Dec 17 15:48:37 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
What about Italy? What are your negotations with Italy? He is trying to
maneuver me into a position where he will attack me. I don't know what I
can do about it. Do you need to commit all of your units against
Germany, or do you have some to spare?
I know Germany must have offered you Belgium, but you are going to take
it regardless, so that is not much of an offer.
I can destroy at least one of the German armies. I don't know what you
have in mind with Russia, but if you supported Sil-Mun, both German armies
(Boh and Tyr) could actually be destroyed, though this would require
cooperation with Italy. I think Italy and I are both paranoid about
having the other in Tyrolia. Italy is worried about Venice already.
Let me know what you think.
Austria
From - Mon Dec 17 15:48:39 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hello? How are the negotiations going?
For me, now that France has pulled back a bit, it seems like Italy is
trying to maneuver me so that he can take Greece.
What sense to you get from Italy? Will he go after France?
Is there something you want me to do specifically? I am assuming you
will try to remove your armies from Tyrolia and Bohemia.
Austria
From - Mon Dec 17 17:43:27 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
FYI, I'm suggesting to Keith that I might support him to Mun in the Fall. Whether or
not I actually do so depends on whether we want Austria getting a build. Let me know
what you think.
Rod
From - Mon Dec 17 17:43:29 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> What about Italy?
Obviously, he wants me to leave him alone. I'm inclined to humor him until Germany is
neutralized - if we're lucky, that will take only one year.
> Do you need to commit all of your units against
> Germany, or do you have some to spare?
I plan to commit most of my units against G, but not all. What exactly did you have
in mind?
> I can destroy at least one of the German armies.
That would be ideal.
> if you supported Sil-Mun, both German armies
> (Boh and Tyr) could actually be destroyed
We discussed Bur S Sil-Mun, but I'd rather grab Bel while it can be guaranteed. If
Germany forces his way into Nth, Bel might not be a sure thing if I wait until Fall.
> I think Italy and I are both paranoid about
> having the other in Tyrolia.
If we knew that Italy would cooperate, guaranteeing the destruction of two Germany
armies would be a very attractive proposition. But if we can't count on him then
I'm considerably less inclined to pass up Bel this turn.
> Let me know what you think.
If everything goes according to plan, I should be able to support you to Mun in the
Fall. The more centers we can grab from him this year, the better off we all are.
Let's see how the Spring goes then discuss our options for the Fall.
Rod
From - Mon Dec 17 17:43:32 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> FYI, I'm suggesting to Keith that I might support him to Mun
> in the Fall. Whether or not I actually do so depends on whether
> we want Austria getting a build. Let me know what you think.
Keith thinks it would be good if you supported me into Mun now,
in the spring. He'd attack Boh and Tyr (Possibly with Italian help)
and destory two German armies in the spring. It sounds like a
promising idea to me, now that the deadline has been extended
we might have time to talk about it if you want.
adam.........
From - Tue Dec 18 16:54:45 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> > Belgium?
>
> I think it's fairly likely that I will capture Belgium this year.
You forgot the smiley :-) so it means that Belgium won't be yours :-)
It has always been 'fairly likely :-)' Never mind I am just joking.
Raine
From - Tue Dec 18 16:54:53 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Deadline is near and I assume that you have given me the messages /
impression that you wanted me to have before the moves. You told me that
you are not going to dispand your fleet unless I move in a certain
way. Still, you don't say what those moves should be. I am dissappointed.
I did ask you to tell me what excatly you want me to do. Now what should
I think of this? What would you think in this situation (as Italy)?
> My preference is to take Bulgaria back and end the loan, and to equalize
> our numbers of supply centers. I remember that this was one of the points
> that you were most interested in, making sure we both had the same number
> of centers when possible. However, if you are going to move against
> France, we can work something else out. The main concern is that you have
> an army in Bulgaria. With the army there, I have to keep Serbia
> protected, and I can't really move too many units towards Russia or
> Germany.
I have been consistenly talking about attacking France (you could attack
Russia at the same time). 'we can work something else out', how are we
going to do it while the deadline is almost there? So you are moving to
Serbia.
> I suppose that is possible. What are you going to do about it? If AFG
> cooperate against you, Venice is lost. I don't see why you would think I
> would cooperate with FG now whereas I wouldn't cooperate with them last
> turn or the turns before.
Keith, I told you my main fear. Your future expansion is, I mean the
easiest expansion 1) Bul 2) Venice other SC's are much harder for you to
get. This was my fear and still is.
> > No, I don't want to end our alliance.
>
> Good, me neither.
We agree in words but how about moves? If I am not getting mail from you
before deadline what should I think of your moves?
> Do you think France will make a big move in the Spring, or do you think
> he is waiting for something? Have you told him specific moves that you
> would make against me? Or, has he insisted that you make certain moves?
I have no idea of French intentions. He has been quite silent (not as
silent as Germany). He has asked no specific moves. No insists. He
responded to my question of Belgium.
> If I am going to disband my F Ion, I need to have 100% confidence in
> you. This would mean that you will have moved your units such that you
> cannot easily attack me. A fleet in Bulgaria goes a long way towards
> this goal.
This contradicts with your equal amount of SC's talks. Or should I believe
that you are happy to take Bulgaria when there is a fleet in there?
> Why do you want to bounce in Greece? I am not sure I am understanding.
> Are you going to move more of your fleets East? You really want to take
> Greece from me? If we bounce in Greece, and I disband the fleet, then
> won't you just take Greece from me?
For _my_ security. I have had a plan that AI exists and I attack France. I
have had a fear of your intentions. That is why I have talked of bounce in
Greece.
> It seems to me that the best course between us for the long term is to
> have you convoy Bul-Arm then move Bla-Bul/ec in the Fall. Aeg-Ion in the
> Spring with support.
>
> What are your thoughts?
I am confused. What more can I say.
Raine
From - Tue Dec 18 16:55:00 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> No, I am not going to move Ion-Tun. I need to keep my fleet for defense,
> and I will only disband it if you make peaceful moves towards me.
And you will define the peacefulness? I would have loved to get some clue
of your desires of peaceful moves. Had I known before what is peaceful and
what is not...
Raine
From - Tue Dec 18 16:55:01 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
The deadline has been extended, so we will have plenty of time to
negotiate this.
I would like Venice. We had agreed to keep the supply center count even
between us, and we later also agreed that you would need to take Bulgaria
in order to defend against France. Now that France has finally
withdrawn, I would like to see some of the peace dividend.
Do you accept or reject this proposal?
As far as peace between us, it should be easy to accomplish once you are
out of Bulgaria. I will disband my fleet if you move as we agree. With
my fleet gone, you will find it quite easy to defend Constantinople and
Venice from me, and your fleets will be free to pursue France. We should
be able to take Sevastopol quite easily once we decide the time is right
to attack Russia (when do you think this will be?).
You ask me what moves you should make. This is of course something we
should agree on, just as we should agree on my moves to satisfy you. You
say you are concerned with Venice's security. Why then shouldn't you
take Tyrolia?
I would like to see you move Aeg-Ion, Bul-Bla-Arm in the Spring, and
Bla-Con in the Fall. If you move Aeg-Ion and Bul-Bla-Arm, I will disband
my fleet.
There are of course alternative plans what we should both find
agreeable. Since we are in the early stages of negotiation, I thought I
would put out this proposal first. What do you think? What do you like
about it, and what do you dislike about it? How does it increase or
decrease our mutual security? Do you agree that I have some claim on
Bulgaria? Let me know.
Austria
From - Tue Dec 18 16:55:02 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I would like Venice. We had agreed to keep the supply center count even
> between us, and we later also agreed that you would need to take Bulgaria
> in order to defend against France. Now that France has finally
> withdrawn, I would like to see some of the peace dividend.
I am so tired, I can't believe I wrote that! (It is 3:30 a.m. here.) I
meant of course, and should be clear from the rest of the message that I
meant Bulgaria, not Venice. Although I might like Venice and every other
supply center on the board, I certainly have no right to it, and I would
not want to take it as long as we are allied.
Austria
From - Tue Dec 18 16:55:03 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> I plan to commit most of my units against G, but not all. What exactly
> did you have in mind?
I don't have anything specifically in mind. I am just worried about
Italy, that's all.
> If we knew that Italy would cooperate, guaranteeing the destruction of
> two Germany armies would be a very attractive proposition. But if we
> can't count on him then I'm considerably less inclined to pass up Bel this
> turn.
I see. I am working on Italy, but from what I can tell, he is planning
to attack me, covertly, probably in the Fall if he has the chance. I am
trying to make sure he doesn't get the chance.
> If everything goes according to plan, I should be able to support you to
> Mun in the Fall. The more centers we can grab from him this year, the
> better off we all are. Let's see how the Spring goes then discuss our
> options for the Fall.
We shall see about Munich. I can't really help there if Italy and I are
at war. If we are not, then I can help against Germany. I have no
intentions to attack Russia.
Austria
From - Tue Dec 18 16:55:05 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> The deadline has been extended, so we will have plenty of time to
> negotiate this.
Yes, I noticed it too.
> I would like Venice. We had agreed to keep the supply center count even
> between us, and we later also agreed that you would need to take Bulgaria
> in order to defend against France. Now that France has finally
> withdrawn, I would like to see some of the peace dividend.
>
> Do you accept or reject this proposal?
I am ready to discuss about this. It certainly would make our border more
secure and more easy to keep safe for both of us. It means one removal for
me and I need to think of it thoroughly.
> As far as peace between us, it should be easy to accomplish once you are
> out of Bulgaria. I will disband my fleet if you move as we agree. With
> my fleet gone, you will find it quite easy to defend Constantinople and
> Venice from me, and your fleets will be free to pursue France. We should
> be able to take Sevastopol quite easily once we decide the time is right
> to attack Russia (when do you think this will be?).
One thing is clear I would like to do it in this order. 1) you disband
your fleet 2) I give Bulgaria to you. There are still a lot to discuss
about.
How about giving Sevastopol to me (for only a year) so that I could leave
one more year without a removal. It gives me the time to go and actually
reach France without a removal. After one year of holding Sevastopol I
would give it to you. How does this sound?
> You ask me what moves you should make. This is of course something we
> should agree on, just as we should agree on my moves to satisfy you. You
> say you are concerned with Venice's security. Why then shouldn't you
> take Tyrolia?
Wouldn't that increase your suspicious of my goodwill? I have thought so.
I want you to believe that I _really_ am on your side.
> I would like to see you move Aeg-Ion, Bul-Bla-Arm in the Spring, and
> Bla-Con in the Fall. If you move Aeg-Ion and Bul-Bla-Arm, I will disband
> my fleet.
You would order Ion hold? How about Rumania? I thought that you would move
to Serbia, from where? Is it really needed for you to move to
Serbia? Could you make a self-bounce instead? What have you agreed with
Adam about Bohemia and Galicia?
> There are of course alternative plans what we should both find
> agreeable. Since we are in the early stages of negotiation, I thought I
> would put out this proposal first. What do you think? What do you like
> about it, and what do you dislike about it? How does it increase or
> decrease our mutual security? Do you agree that I have some claim on
> Bulgaria? Let me know.
There are alternatives and we certainly should talk more. I do agree that
Bulgaria owned by Austria makes our border more secure. I do agree that
disbanding your fleet makes AI relations more frictionless. I have to
check our previous talks carefully 'cause I want to see what we agreed and
what we didn't when I took Bulgaria. I remember that we continiously
talked about Greece falling to me when we talked of Bulgaria.
Keith, tell how would you move AI units if they where all yours? I would
move Ion-Tun. I think this option hasn't been talked enough. In fact my
moves were (I mean before the deadline extension) to dislodge you from
Ionian Sea and to leave Tunis open so that YOU could make the decision of
retreating to Tunis _after_ seeing my other moves.
We should also discuss about the possibility of not dislodging your
fleet. Could we just wait and see how seriously FR is attacking G? That
would be one possibility.
Well, you are most likely sleeping by now (at least you should be) so I'll
think about the possibilities more and write to you more. Don't hesitate
to write me immediately when you have the chance.
Raine
From - Tue Dec 18 16:55:10 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Okay, that's great. We can help each other out here. If France supports
> Sil-Mun, and I attack Boh and Tyr, then Bohemia should be destroyed. I
> may be able to get Italy to support me to Tyrolia, or support him there.
> This would destroy both German armies. What do you think?
Unfortunately Rod thinks that it's unlikely we'd get Munich
since Ber will proabaly support either Tyr or Boh - Mun. He's
therefore probably going to use Bur elsewhere. I'd complain
and stamp my feet and issue demands, but I tend to think
he's probably right unfortunately.
Adam.......
From - Tue Dec 18 16:55:12 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> I think it's not unlikely that Ber will support Boh or Tyr to Mun,
> so we can't expect Sil-Mun to succeed - its purpose would be to cut
> off a German retreat. Suppose Ber S Boh-Mun, Tyr-Vie: Keith would
> have to order Gal S Vie-Boh, Bud-Vie. Meanwhile, A/I must coordinate
> a supported attack on Tyr. Keith told me that he and Raine are both
> paranoid about seeing the other move to Tyr. In order for this to
> work, we'd have to promote peace and trust between Keith and Raine
> (especially since Keith would have only Rum and Ion left over to
> protect his Balkan holdings), and that is exactly what we DON'T want.
I agree with this, if we give Raine and Keith a target in
common then they have a unified purpose, or a purpose to
unify under anyway. Best keep them at each others throats.
> I want Bel, but I'm optimistic that you will still get at least
> one of Hol/Ber. (In other words, I'm pessimistic when evaluating
> my own chances, and optimistic when evaluating yours.) :-)
Well, naturally. Heh. Trouble is, most of what you've said
sounds good to me, I can't really argue.
Adam............
From - Tue Dec 18 16:55:22 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Do you have a moment to discuss about Austria. I have a feeling that he is
enormously nervous of my forthcoming moves :-) So, I would like to ask if
you can reveal his plans? Keith is a good player and he can feel when
something is not going his way. He has told me that he is nervous.
Should we agree the Armenian situation? I can promise that I am not moving
to Sevastopol or supporting Austria in there (just telling the obvious).
I am thinking of to move or not to move to Armenia. I would like to build
our goodwill by demilitarizing it but I don't know if I have the guts. I'd
like to hear your opinion. Can you promise to keep it clear, I mean can
you promise not to move there? It would make a huge difference to me if I
could be sure that I don't need to move there. Has Keith asked you to move
there?
Also, Adam I have the feeling that you are seriously attacking Germany but
I am not sure of France? Why, you might ask? Because wouldn't it be normal
for Germany to ask me to attack France in this situation? Steve does not
ask for help! I find this unbelievable. I am confused. Can you tell me
your feelings of French attack against Germany? Have you got a solid plan
against Germany (no need to tell me the plan if you don't want to, I'd
just like to know if there is a co-operation against Germany)?
Raine
From - Tue Dec 18 16:55:24 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Do you have a moment to discuss about Austria. I have a feeling that he is
> enormously nervous of my forthcoming moves :-) So, I would like to ask if
> you can reveal his plans? Keith is a good player and he can feel when
> something is not going his way. He has told me that he is nervous.
I'm not really sure what he's going. He's told me that he's
not going to attack me, that he's hoping to clear Gal, that
he wants me to support Rum. This is about as much as I know
with any certainty at all.
> Should we agree the Armenian situation? I can promise that I am not moving
> to Sevastopol or supporting Austria in there (just telling the obvious).
> I am thinking of to move or not to move to Armenia. I would like to build
> our goodwill by demilitarizing it but I don't know if I have the guts. I'd
> like to hear your opinion. Can you promise to keep it clear, I mean can
> you promise not to move there? It would make a huge difference to me if I
> could be sure that I don't need to move there. Has Keith asked you to move
> there?
I won't be heading to Arm any time soon, I have no plans to move
there at all. If you want then I'll even promise not too, but
frankly promises tend to mean less than nothing whereas the
position of my units should show that I'm heading North, not
south. As I said, Keith has asked me to support Rum.
> Also, Adam I have the feeling that you are seriously attacking Germany but
> I am not sure of France? Why, you might ask? Because wouldn't it be normal
> for Germany to ask me to attack France in this situation? Steve does not
> ask for help! I find this unbelievable. I am confused. Can you tell me
> your feelings of French attack against Germany?
Steve hasn't been writing much press at all lately anyway, this
is a part of the reason France and I decided to attack him. He's
probably just really busy, has he not written to you at all? He
wrote one note to me after the attack but up until then all
I'd heard from him in ages was a note as he sent his moves
in telling me what his moves were, basically doing what France
and I said. I don't think he has much time for the game right
now basically.
> Have you got a solid plan
> against Germany (no need to tell me the plan if you don't want to, I'd
> just like to know if there is a co-operation against Germany)?
We have moves planned for the spring, and a few posibilites talked
about for the fall.
Adam.......
From - Tue Dec 18 16:55:25 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> Unfortunately Rod thinks that it's unlikely we'd get Munich
> since Ber will proabaly support either Tyr or Boh - Mun. He's
> therefore probably going to use Bur elsewhere. I'd complain
> and stamp my feet and issue demands, but I tend to think
> he's probably right unfortunately.
Okay, France has been telling me the same thing. Well, what we can do is
destroy one of the armies, and occupy both Tyrolia and Bohemia to attack
Munich in the Fall. You can support War-Pru. Seems like Munich or
Berlin would have to Fall under that pressure. France will take Belgium.
Austria
From - Tue Dec 18 16:55:36 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> One thing is clear I would like to do it in this order. 1) you disband
> your fleet 2) I give Bulgaria to you. There are still a lot to discuss
> about.
Yes, if you make the moves we agree upon in the Spring, then I can
disband the fleet in the Spring retreats phase.
> How about giving Sevastopol to me (for only a year) so that I could leave
> one more year without a removal. It gives me the time to go and actually
> reach France without a removal. After one year of holding Sevastopol I
> would give it to you. How does this sound?
I suppose we could do this. It would mean double-crossing Russia. Do
you want to do that? If you convoyed Bul-Arm, we'd have no trouble
taking Sev.
> Wouldn't that increase your suspicious of my goodwill? I have thought so.
> I want you to believe that I _really_ am on your side.
If I have Bulgaria, I won't mind that you have Tyrolia. Controlling it
will also mean that you can make sure that I don't build any more fleets.
> You would order Ion hold? How about Rumania? I thought that you would move
> to Serbia, from where? Is it really needed for you to move to
> Serbia? Could you make a self-bounce instead? What have you agreed with
> Adam about Bohemia and Galicia?
I would hold Ion, yes, and wait for you to dislodge me. I would move
something to Serbia. I would make sure that something was also in Rum.
Russia wants me to destroy Bohemia with my army in Galacia, or at least
leave Galacia open.
> Keith, tell how would you move AI units if they where all yours? I would
> move Ion-Tun. I think this option hasn't been talked enough. In fact my
> moves were (I mean before the deadline extension) to dislodge you from
> Ionian Sea and to leave Tunis open so that YOU could make the decision of
> retreating to Tunis _after_ seeing my other moves.
I just don't see what moving Ion-Tun would gain. What is the purpose of
that?
> We should also discuss about the possibility of not dislodging your
> fleet. Could we just wait and see how seriously FR is attacking G? That
> would be one possibility.
We could wait. If you move Aeg-Ion, then you will be able to defend the
Italian centers without my help. I thought this was one of the goals, so
that we wouldn't be dependent on each other so much. It decreases the
likelihood that we could stab each other.
Austria
From - Sat Dec 22 09:22:30 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Okay, France has been telling me the same thing. Well, what we can do is
> destroy one of the armies, and occupy both Tyrolia and Bohemia to attack
> Munich in the Fall. You can support War-Pru. Seems like Munich or
> Berlin would have to Fall under that pressure. France will take Belgium.
Yeah, that's what I've ordered. Raine keeps bothering me trying
to figure out what your intentions are, I'm saying as little as
I can get away with which is basically that you've asked me for
my support in Rum. I have a feeling he's still worried about
France so he won't be taking any agressive action until he's
satified he's not falling into a trap.
Adam..........
From - Sat Dec 22 09:22:31 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> Yes, if you make the moves we agree upon in the Spring, then I can
> disband the fleet in the Spring retreats phase.
Ok, all we need to do is to agree the moves :-) I'd like to see a
self-bounce in Serbia. If you actuall move to Serbia then you might
find it tempting to retreat to Greece. So could you make a self-bounce in
Serbia?
> I suppose we could do this. It would mean double-crossing Russia. Do
> you want to do that? If you convoyed Bul-Arm, we'd have no trouble
> taking Sev.
Hasn't it been the plan to attack France and Russia? I am not
double-crossing him.
> > Wouldn't that increase your suspicious of my goodwill? I have thought so.
> > I want you to believe that I _really_ am on your side.
>
> If I have Bulgaria, I won't mind that you have Tyrolia. Controlling it
> will also mean that you can make sure that I don't build any more fleets.
Actually, I have not been thinking it that way. I have not thought of the
situation where you would build move fleets. I hope I shouldn't worry
about it.
> I would hold Ion, yes, and wait for you to dislodge me. I would move
> something to Serbia. I would make sure that something was also in Rum.
I have no problem with Austrian army in Rumania. I hope there we could
avoid the situation where you have armies in Serbia and Rumania and you
are making a decision about disbanding the fleet or retreating to Greece.
> I just don't see what moving Ion-Tun would gain. What is the purpose of
> that?
To make my attack against France as fast as possible.
> We could wait. If you move Aeg-Ion, then you will be able to defend the
> Italian centers without my help. I thought this was one of the goals, so
> that we wouldn't be dependent on each other so much. It decreases the
> likelihood that we could stab each other.
What would you order in this case, I mean your fleet?
Raine
PS. Do you have your orders in? Someone hasn't :-(
From - Sat Dec 22 09:22:33 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Ok, all we need to do is to agree the moves :-) I'd like to see a
> self-bounce in Serbia. If you actuall move to Serbia then you might
> find it tempting to retreat to Greece. So could you make a self-bounce in
> Serbia?
I really would like to be in Serbia at the end of the season. We still
have not settled a fundamental issue yet. Do you want me to have
Bulgaria, or not? If you don't care, then you shouldn't care whether I
am in Serbia or not.
Do you need Bulgaria as a supply center? Why? You should have enough
fleets to move against France if you move Aeg-Ion. You won't have to
disband if you take Sevastopol in the Fall.
> Hasn't it been the plan to attack France and Russia? I am not
> double-crossing him.
Yes, but I thought we had agreed not to attack right away so their forces
have been drawn away. It wouldn't really be a doublecross for you to
take Sevastopol, I guess, since I had been doing a lot of negotiating
with Russia (I don't know how much you have contacted him).
> I have no problem with Austrian army in Rumania. I hope there we could
> avoid the situation where you have armies in Serbia and Rumania and you
> are making a decision about disbanding the fleet or retreating to Greece.
So you want to defend Bulgaria then?
> > I just don't see what moving Ion-Tun would gain. What is the purpose of
> > that?
>
> To make my attack against France as fast as possible.
Okay, that makes sense. I am just worried that if I move my fleet away,
you will stab me. My fleet is the only ace-in-the-hole I have, and
before I get rid of it, I need to be sure that you aren't going to stab
me. All of our negotiations lead me to believe that you are planning to
take Greece from me.
> > We could wait. If you move Aeg-Ion, then you will be able to defend the
> > Italian centers without my help. I thought this was one of the goals, so
> > that we wouldn't be dependent on each other so much. It decreases the
> > likelihood that we could stab each other.
>
> What would you order in this case, I mean your fleet?
I think I would still hold it.
> PS. Do you have your orders in? Someone hasn't :-(
No, not yet.
I think we need to talk abou tthe long-term outcome of this game. I
think it is headed for a three-way draw. If we stick together, we two
can be two of the three, and the other will be France or Germany,
depending on what happens. If we fight, the outcome could range from one
of us being eliminated, and a French win, to perhaps a three-way draw
with France, Germany, and the survivor between us. I don't think either
of us has a good chance to win, and the best outcome we can hope for is a
three-way draw.
I know you see that my taking Bulgaria creates a very stable situation
between us. I think you must be worried that you don't want to keep me
around, or that I am planning to stab you somehow. If I disband my
fleet, and tkae Bulgaria, it is hardly possible for us to attack each
other. Maybe you are worried about my not disbanding my fleet. If I
don't, you have enough fleet power to hunt my fleet down and destroy it.
It is easy to do since I have only one fleet. You can probably count on
non-agression from France for a while, at least until he starts to break
through into Germany. Then he will push for a solo, and you will have to
rush back to defend Tunis.
I know that I cannot defend Tunis myself, and I doubt that I can defend
Munich. This is why I think Italy needs to remain strong. These are the
same reasons for us to ally before, and I don't think anything has
changed.
Austria
From - Sat Dec 22 09:22:37 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> Yeah, that's what I've ordered. Raine keeps bothering me trying
> to figure out what your intentions are, I'm saying as little as
> I can get away with which is basically that you've asked me for
> my support in Rum. I have a feeling he's still worried about
> France so he won't be taking any agressive action until he's
> satified he's not falling into a trap.
Perhaps. I get the impression that he is planning to try to take Greece
from me. He is trying to figure out exactly what I will be doing with
each of my units, etc.
Austria
From - Sat Dec 22 09:22:58 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> I really would like to be in Serbia at the end of the season. We still
> have not settled a fundamental issue yet. Do you want me to have
> Bulgaria, or not? If you don't care, then you shouldn't care whether I
> am in Serbia or not.
'Houston we have a problem', Keith we have a problem too. In the end I am
willing to give you Bulgaria BUT you don't need to take if from me with
force. You would waste your time (and tempo) by moving against Bulgaria
i.e. moving to Serbia. I do care if you are in Serbia or not. It is a
waste of time from my point of view.
> Do you need Bulgaria as a supply center? Why? You should have enough
> fleets to move against France if you move Aeg-Ion. You won't have to
> disband if you take Sevastopol in the Fall.
You'll get a build, too. It ain't a problem. There might be a problem when
you start to look for your next center after Bulgaria. Remember to my eyes
your easiest expansion is Bulgaria, Venice, ... and you are asking (should
I say insisting) to have Bulgaria. Sevastopol would be a year in my hands
then it would fall most likely to you. At that time I should have a
compensating build from France. Ok, you'd have a +2 (Bul,Sev) and I'd have
0 (-1 if I don't manage to get a center from France). With your plan to
move to Serbia now it looks like you are far away from taking a center
from Germany and Venice might still be a tempting target...
> So you want to defend Bulgaria then?
In case you don't disband the fleet, yes.
> > To make my attack against France as fast as possible.
>
> Okay, that makes sense. I am just worried that if I move my fleet away,
> you will stab me. My fleet is the only ace-in-the-hole I have, and
> before I get rid of it, I need to be sure that you aren't going to stab
> me. All of our negotiations lead me to believe that you are planning to
> take Greece from me.
Keith, it looks that we are both worried of each other. I am not sure if
the French attack is real. Rod is a good player. He can see that AI are in
tough position and if they blew it (i.e. start a war) he'll just move back
and pick my centers. You are not about to lose centers but you should be
worried of the France solo possibilities.
> > > We could wait. If you move Aeg-Ion, then you will be able to defend the
> > > Italian centers without my help. I thought this was one of the goals, so
> > > that we wouldn't be dependent on each other so much. It decreases the
> > > likelihood that we could stab each other.
> >
> > What would you order in this case, I mean your fleet?
>
> I think I would still hold it.
Then what is the point for me to move Aeg-Ion?
> No, not yet.
Ok, I see.
> I think we need to talk abou tthe long-term outcome of this game. I
> think it is headed for a three-way draw. If we stick together, we two
> can be two of the three, and the other will be France or Germany,
> depending on what happens. If we fight, the outcome could range from one
> of us being eliminated, and a French win, to perhaps a three-way draw
> with France, Germany, and the survivor between us. I don't think either
> of us has a good chance to win, and the best outcome we can hope for is a
> three-way draw.
I'd like to add the (rare) possibility of AI 2-way. Before this year we
have had so smooth, good, reliable alliance. If we manage to keep it over
the next year we should be able to trust each other to have a 2-way.
AGI is the three-way for us. Do you see any problems in AGI? Should we
start three-way talks once again?
> I know you see that my taking Bulgaria creates a very stable situation
> between us. I think you must be worried that you don't want to keep me
> around, or that I am planning to stab you somehow. If I disband my
> fleet, and tkae Bulgaria, it is hardly possible for us to attack each
> other. Maybe you are worried about my not disbanding my fleet. If I
> don't, you have enough fleet power to hunt my fleet down and destroy it.
> It is easy to do since I have only one fleet. You can probably count on
> non-agression from France for a while, at least until he starts to break
> through into Germany. Then he will push for a solo, and you will have to
> rush back to defend Tunis.
If I could be 100% that you'll disband the fleet, I'd be willing to give
Bulgaria to you and take Sevastopol like we talked. How could I be sure of
the disband?
> I know that I cannot defend Tunis myself, and I doubt that I can defend
> Munich. This is why I think Italy needs to remain strong. These are the
> same reasons for us to ally before, and I don't think anything has
> changed.
My idea was to dislodge you from there in Fall and you would disband your
fleet then. That would be a fast way to go against France for me. There is
also the possibility (which you probably refuse) that you would retreat
your fleet Tun-Wes/Naf. We would have two fronts one against Russia and
one against France. We had to co-operate in both fronts and I think it
would benefit us both.
Raine
From - Sat Dec 22 09:23:19 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> 'Houston we have a problem', Keith we have a problem too. In the end I am
> willing to give you Bulgaria BUT you don't need to take if from me with
> force. You would waste your time (and tempo) by moving against Bulgaria
> i.e. moving to Serbia. I do care if you are in Serbia or not. It is a
> waste of time from my point of view.
It is true that if I move to defend Greece, Serbia and Rumania (and
ultimately all of my supply centers), I would necessarily have to give up
something offensive against Germany or Austria. Fresh in my mind is what
happened the last time I stuck my neck out. I moved against Germany, and
Russia promptly took advantage of me. I don't want this to happen again,
and I feel like I am in an even more vulnerable situation now. I think
it is worth it to create a stable situation between us. It might even
give Russia and France time to commit their forces against Germany, to
our advantage.
> You'll get a build, too. It ain't a problem. There might be a problem when
> you start to look for your next center after Bulgaria. Remember to my eyes
> your easiest expansion is Bulgaria, Venice, ... and you are asking (should
> I say insisting) to have Bulgaria. Sevastopol would be a year in my hands
> then it would fall most likely to you. At that time I should have a
> compensating build from France. Ok, you'd have a +2 (Bul,Sev) and I'd have
> 0 (-1 if I don't manage to get a center from France). With your plan to
> move to Serbia now it looks like you are far away from taking a center
> from Germany and Venice might still be a tempting target...
Well, what do you think would be a stable division of supply centers
between us. We have both agreed that if I get Bulgaria and I disband my
fleet, then we are fairly safe from each other. All along we had agreed
to keep our supply center count as even as possible between us. If I get
into a situation where I get a number of Russian centers but you are
having trouble against France, it seems to me it would be easy to give
you Greece or other nearby centers.
I agree that I will be much safer when I get a build, but I am worried
about losing Greece now so that I wouldn't get a build (but you would
instead).
> > So you want to defend Bulgaria then?
>
> In case you don't disband the fleet, yes.
Do you think there is some compromise we can make? I don't want your
army in Bulgaria. Any agreement we come to must involve your removing
that army in the Spring. Do you agree to this? Beyond this point, I am
very reasonable. Do you have a prime issue that you think is essential
to you? What things are you willing to negotiate, and what things are
not negotiable?
> Keith, it looks that we are both worried of each other. I am not sure if
> the French attack is real. Rod is a good player. He can see that AI are in
> tough position and if they blew it (i.e. start a war) he'll just move back
> and pick my centers. You are not about to lose centers but you should be
> worried of the France solo possibilities.
I am worried. I don't have eyes on any Italian territory except for
Bulgaria. I have explained to you why I think Italy's existence is
essential. If we went to war and I got the advantage somehow, then as
you say, France would likely win the game. I'm not going to allow that
to happen.
> Then what is the point for me to move Aeg-Ion?
If you move Aeg-Ion instead of something else to Ion, then you will have
only one fleet bordering Greece instead of two. This is what I'm
concerned about. Also, I would think you would want to move your fleets
west and not east. If your fleets get caught up in the Aegean and Ionian
and you don't get a build, then you won't be able to protect against
France if he turns back or gets a build himself.
> I'd like to add the (rare) possibility of AI 2-way. Before this year we
> have had so smooth, good, reliable alliance. If we manage to keep it over
> the next year we should be able to trust each other to have a 2-way.
This is possible if you make some headway against France.
> AGI is the three-way for us. Do you see any problems in AGI? Should we
> start three-way talks once again?
AGI looks safest to me. We should easily be able to hold enough centers
to prevent Germany from winning. I don't think either of us has a
realistic chance of winning at this point.
> If I could be 100% that you'll disband the fleet, I'd be willing to give
> Bulgaria to you and take Sevastopol like we talked. How could I be sure of
> the disband?
You can't be 100% sure. However, I can't defeat you and take your
place. As long as France is a viable power, you should be assured that I
view Italy as an essential ally. What is the risk to you? Is there some
way Italy can be defeated without handing the solo to France? I don't
see it. I suppose if you found a way you wouldn't tell me.
> My idea was to dislodge you from there in Fall and you would disband your
> fleet then. That would be a fast way to go against France for me. There is
> also the possibility (which you probably refuse) that you would retreat
> your fleet Tun-Wes/Naf. We would have two fronts one against Russia and
> one against France. We had to co-operate in both fronts and I think it
> would benefit us both.
I see your point. I would be willing to retreat to Tunis rather than
disbanding my fleet if we come to some agreement on Bulgaria. My fleet
is only useful for me in order to protect Greece and attack Bulgaria in
case you doublecross me.
Austria
From - Tue Dec 25 19:20:25 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
After a long break I'd like to check if your plans are still the same.
We talked of:
-I'll move away from Pie
-You move Lyo-Mar (you told that it will succeed)
-You said that Belgium will be yours
Are these still going to happen? I will move away from Pie (and not to
Mar). How about your plans?
I believe Keith is _very_ nervous of my intentions. What has he asked you
to do? My story to calm him down is that I'll attack you if he disbands
the fleet instead of retreating.
I heard that the reason to attack Germany is Steve's lack of press. Can
you confirm this?
Raine
From - Tue Dec 25 19:20:27 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Thanks for your note. Keith, would like me to convoy to Armenia in spring
and to take Sevastopol in fall. He would have Bulgaria in return.
Keith tells me that he has talked a lot to you. Is it true?
> I won't be heading to Arm any time soon, I have no plans to move
> there at all. If you want then I'll even promise not too, but
> frankly promises tend to mean less than nothing whereas the
> position of my units should show that I'm heading North, not
> south. As I said, Keith has asked me to support Rum.
So, in case I'd like to make a bounce in Armenia you refuse?
> probably just really busy, has he not written to you at all? He
Steve hasn't talked much for ages like you said.
> We have moves planned for the spring, and a few posibilites talked
> about for the fall.
OK, thanks for this. If you and Rod are really attacking Steve I will have
a chance to really hurt Keith. I do need your help in there. I mean in
attacking Austria. I'd like you to co-operate with you in fall. In spring
we cannot make a supported attack Sev-Rum but in fall it is possible. In
spring all I need from you is to know if you are going to move to Arm or
not. If I could be 100% sure that I could have a bounce in there that
would make some plans easier for me. OTOH if I could be 100% sure of the
opposite (NOT Sev-Arm) that would help me too.
BTW, do you have your orders in? Someone hasn't.
Raine
From - Tue Dec 25 19:20:28 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
What's up? I haven't heard from you for a very long time. You have been
busy or what? I hope everything is ok in your life.
You are high on my ally list. I'd like to hear from you. Your plans? Any
idea of our co-operation?
Raine
From - Tue Dec 25 19:20:29 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Let's get back to gutsy after a little break due to christmas.
> Fresh in my mind is what
> happened the last time I stuck my neck out. I moved against Germany, and
> Russia promptly took advantage of me. I don't want this to happen again,
> and I feel like I am in an even more vulnerable situation now. I think
> it is worth it to create a stable situation between us. It might even
> give Russia and France time to commit their forces against Germany, to
> our advantage.
Please, remember that it was Russia who betrayed you, not me.
> Well, what do you think would be a stable division of supply centers
> between us. We have both agreed that if I get Bulgaria and I disband my
> fleet, then we are fairly safe from each other. All along we had agreed
> to keep our supply center count as even as possible between us. If I get
> into a situation where I get a number of Russian centers but you are
> having trouble against France, it seems to me it would be easy to give
> you Greece or other nearby centers.
Keith, if you are afraid of me and I do know my intentions, then wouldn't
it be ok if you get a build from disband and attack Russia with your
armies (+ 1 due to disband->rebuild army). Russia cannot defend against
you (I have already promised to help you against Russia many times).
> I agree that I will be much safer when I get a build, but I am worried
> about losing Greece now so that I wouldn't get a build (but you would
> instead).
Keith, I want to keep AI alliance alive. I am not going to take Greece
from you. I do want to get builds but not from you.
> Do you think there is some compromise we can make? I don't want your
> army in Bulgaria. Any agreement we come to must involve your removing
> that army in the Spring. Do you agree to this? Beyond this point, I am
> very reasonable. Do you have a prime issue that you think is essential
> to you? What things are you willing to negotiate, and what things are
> not negotiable?
After staring the map I have come to conclusion that you don't need
Bulgaria to attack Russia. You need to see no Italian army in Bulgaria.
I am willing to wait for your decision on Ionian Sea. Disband or not. I'll
leave it to you. I hope that you can believe that I am not attacking you.
After you see the spring moves you should be able to see that I am not
attacking you. I agree with you of the equal amount of SC's. I am willing
to let you have all the Russian centers including Sevastopol. We should be
equal in strength before I am getting a build from France.
> I am worried. I don't have eyes on any Italian territory except for
> Bulgaria. I have explained to you why I think Italy's existence is
> essential. If we went to war and I got the advantage somehow, then as
> you say, France would likely win the game. I'm not going to allow that
> to happen.
How about no war between AI and Italian fleet in Bulgaria?
> > Then what is the point for me to move Aeg-Ion?
>
> If you move Aeg-Ion instead of something else to Ion, then you will have
> only one fleet bordering Greece instead of two. This is what I'm
> concerned about. Also, I would think you would want to move your fleets
> west and not east. If your fleets get caught up in the Aegean and Ionian
> and you don't get a build, then you won't be able to protect against
> France if he turns back or gets a build himself.
Keith pay attention. This talk above was about NOT dislodging your
fleet. You asked me to move Aeg-Ion!?!? I still like the idea that we wait
and see if France is coming back or not. After that we would be able make
better decisions.
> This is possible if you make some headway against France.
I am willing to try.
> AGI looks safest to me. We should easily be able to hold enough centers
> to prevent Germany from winning. I don't think either of us has a
> realistic chance of winning at this point.
AGF should look good to you too. That is what I am afraid of. You said
that Steve has talked to you and I haven't heard from him for a long
time. That makes me worried.
> I see your point. I would be willing to retreat to Tunis rather than
> disbanding my fleet if we come to some agreement on Bulgaria. My fleet
> is only useful for me in order to protect Greece and attack Bulgaria in
> case you doublecross me.
I don't see your point in insisting for Bulgaria. You should be able to
trust me after all we've done together. The same argumenst that are valid
for your stab against (insane -> solo to France) are valid the other way
around too. I would give a solo to France if I would stab you.
I am afraid of AFG. That is the reason why I'd like to see spring moves
before dislodging your fleet. Is that ok to you?
Raine
From - Wed Dec 26 18:10:09 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Keith, if you are afraid of me and I do know my intentions, then wouldn't
> it be ok if you get a build from disband and attack Russia with your
> armies (+ 1 due to disband->rebuild army). Russia cannot defend against
> you (I have already promised to help you against Russia many times).
I can't really attack Russia unless you are not in Bulgaria. Your having
a fleet there instead of an army would do a lot, but it still poses a
threat to Rumania or Greece. I think I would be willing to attack Russia
if you put a fleet in Bulgaria. For long-term stability we'd have to
arrange things more carefully.
> Keith, I want to keep AI alliance alive. I am not going to take Greece
> from you. I do want to get builds but not from you.
I am glad to hear it. Now we just need to come to some agreement about
the best way to do this.
> > Do you think there is some compromise we can make? I don't want your
> > army in Bulgaria. Any agreement we come to must involve your removing
> > that army in the Spring. Do you agree to this? Beyond this point, I am
> > very reasonable. Do you have a prime issue that you think is essential
> > to you? What things are you willing to negotiate, and what things are
> > not negotiable?
>
> After staring the map I have come to conclusion that you don't need
> Bulgaria to attack Russia. You need to see no Italian army in Bulgaria.
> I am willing to wait for your decision on Ionian Sea. Disband or not. I'll
> leave it to you. I hope that you can believe that I am not attacking you.
> After you see the spring moves you should be able to see that I am not
> attacking you. I agree with you of the equal amount of SC's. I am willing
> to let you have all the Russian centers including Sevastopol. We should be
> equal in strength before I am getting a build from France.
I am telling you what I want, and why I want it. What do you want?
Don't tell me what I need or don't need. Tell me what you need or don't
need. If we can each see this from the other's point of view, then maybe
it will be easier to compromise.
Can you tell me what it is you want? I have been asking for some time,
and I am still not clear. I don't know if you are being intentionally
evasive, or whether I am just not understanding what you are trying to
say. If we don't come to some agreement before the moves, then I will
assume that we are no longer allies.
> > I am worried. I don't have eyes on any Italian territory except for
> > Bulgaria. I have explained to you why I think Italy's existence is
> > essential. If we went to war and I got the advantage somehow, then as
> > you say, France would likely win the game. I'm not going to allow that
> > to happen.
>
> How about no war between AI and Italian fleet in Bulgaria?
That edoes not sound bad. Where will we put our other fleets? Will you
take Sevastopol?
Are you completely unwilling to give me Bulgaria. That is, this is not a
negotiable point for you?
> > > Then what is the point for me to move Aeg-Ion?
> >
> > If you move Aeg-Ion instead of something else to Ion, then you will have
> > only one fleet bordering Greece instead of two. This is what I'm
> > concerned about. Also, I would think you would want to move your fleets
> > west and not east. If your fleets get caught up in the Aegean and Ionian
> > and you don't get a build, then you won't be able to protect against
> > France if he turns back or gets a build himself.
>
> Keith pay attention. This talk above was about NOT dislodging your
> fleet. You asked me to move Aeg-Ion!?!? I still like the idea that we wait
> and see if France is coming back or not. After that we would be able make
> better decisions.
Oh, I thought you would dislodge my fleet for certain. You do not want
to now? What moves would you like us to make?
> AGF should look good to you too. That is what I am afraid of. You said
> that Steve has talked to you and I haven't heard from him for a long
> time. That makes me worried.
Yes, we exchanged a few brief notes. I have not heard from him in quite
a while now, either, though. AFG isn't so good because if France gets
any Italian centers, he essentially has won the game. That's the way I
see it. Germany and Austria can't hold out against France. I'd be of
little help to Germany, I think, and I wouldn't have enough fleets to
keep France out of the Italian centers.
> I don't see your point in insisting for Bulgaria. You should be able to
> trust me after all we've done together. The same argumenst that are valid
> for your stab against (insane -> solo to France) are valid the other way
> around too. I would give a solo to France if I would stab you.
I don't see it that way. You can stab me, and you can hold out against
France, especially if I have disbanded my fleet. With no fleet, you can
3easily hold me off and also defend against France too.
We have trusted each other for a long time in this game. I was not
worried then, because our survival depended on it. Now, however, France
is moving away from you, and you have to dedcide to attack either France
or Austria. Austria looks like a more tempting target, don't I? And as
long as you get a couple of builds from me, France won't be able to do
anything to you. If you can get me off guard this turn or make some
damaging moves, it wouldn't be too hard to keep France away from you.
This is why I want to ensure peace between us by resolving the point of
potential conflict between us.
Other than the fact that you don't think I need Bulgaria to attack Russia
(which is not the reason why I want it, by the way), why are you so
resistant to letting me have it? It will create stability between us,
and the peace dividend will be of greater value to you than the single
supply center would be.
> I am afraid of AFG. That is the reason why I'd like to see spring moves
> before dislodging your fleet. Is that ok to you? > > Raine
I don't know what such moves would look like. You mean you want to see
whether France moves back against you first? What is differnet now about
the game than before? I mean, why do youa think I would support France
against you now when I have so far resisted other opportunities to do the
same thing? THe reasons I want to help you against France are still as
valid now as ever.
Austria
From - Thu Dec 27 22:27:45 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> I am telling you what I want, and why I want it. What do you want?
> Don't tell me what I need or don't need. Tell me what you need or don't
> need. If we can each see this from the other's point of view, then maybe
> it will be easier to compromise.
I want to attack France. I want you to attack Russia. I want no removals
for you or me. I want you to trust me. I want you to stop thinking that I
am bloodthirsty deamon waiting to attack you. I want you to disband your
fleet if France is not returning to where he was in Med.
> Can you tell me what it is you want? I have been asking for some time,
> and I am still not clear. I don't know if you are being intentionally
> evasive, or whether I am just not understanding what you are trying to
> say. If we don't come to some agreement before the moves, then I will
> assume that we are no longer allies.
I am sorry. I didn't want to hide anything. I thougth I made it clear I
want to attack France. Also I want to help you to attack Russia. I want to
be your ally.
> That edoes not sound bad. Where will we put our other fleets? Will you
> take Sevastopol?
You can have Sevastopol. My fleets will head to West in fall. In spring I
wait to see if France is truly going against G.
> Are you completely unwilling to give me Bulgaria. That is, this is not a
> negotiable point for you?
It is negotiable after the spring moves. We can negotiate it before the
spring moves but it'll be highly speculative. Overall, I am willing to
give you Bulgaria when I can be sure that I do not need to remove unit in
this case it means when I am able to grab a center or two from France.
> Oh, I thought you would dislodge my fleet for certain. You do not want
> to now? What moves would you like us to make?
That was my question. What about if I don't dislodge you? Your answer was
then I should move Aeg-Ion?!? I tried to open a discussion of the
possibilities we could have in case of non-dislodgement of your
fleet. That is/was because I think that France is trying to guess if we
start a fight or not. If we do he'll move back to Med. If we don't he
continues against G. What have you been telling to Rod? Do you think he
believes that we start a war?
> Yes, we exchanged a few brief notes. I have not heard from him in quite
> a while now, either, though. AFG isn't so good because if France gets
> any Italian centers, he essentially has won the game. That's the way I
> see it. Germany and Austria can't hold out against France. I'd be of
> little help to Germany, I think, and I wouldn't have enough fleets to
> keep France out of the Italian centers.
It really isn't that simple. In AFG you should keep me fighting against F
and still grab centers from me.
> I don't see it that way. You can stab me, and you can hold out against
> France, especially if I have disbanded my fleet. With no fleet, you can
> 3easily hold me off and also defend against France too.
I understand your fear. I hope you understand mine too. If we both see
what the other is afraid we should be able to trust each other.
> We have trusted each other for a long time in this game. I was not
> worried then, because our survival depended on it. Now, however, France
> is moving away from you, and you have to dedcide to attack either France
> or Austria. Austria looks like a more tempting target, don't I? And as
> long as you get a couple of builds from me, France won't be able to do
> anything to you. If you can get me off guard this turn or make some
> damaging moves, it wouldn't be too hard to keep France away from you.
You would look like a tempting target if
1) France would not be able to move back to threaten me so fast
2) You would have less places to retreat from Ionian Sea
3) Germany would talk to me
4) We had had a worse alliance in past
> This is why I want to ensure peace between us by resolving the point of
> potential conflict between us.
I hate the possibility that the next moves comes and you think that I am
against you. Then I have to make moves to force you to be my friend. I
mean I just move to show you that I am on your side. The problem there is
that we both lose time.
> Other than the fact that you don't think I need Bulgaria to attack Russia
> (which is not the reason why I want it, by the way), why are you so
> resistant to letting me have it? It will create stability between us,
> and the peace dividend will be of greater value to you than the single
> supply center would be.
I would like to be as strong as possible when I attack France. Giving Bul
to you now would most likely mean that I would remove a unit soon. That is
bad.
> > I am afraid of AFG. That is the reason why I'd like to see spring moves
> > before dislodging your fleet. Is that ok to you? > > Raine
>
> I don't know what such moves would look like. You mean you want to see
> whether France moves back against you first? What is differnet now about
> the game than before? I mean, why do youa think I would support France
> against you now when I have so far resisted other opportunities to do the
> same thing? THe reasons I want to help you against France are still as
> valid now as ever.
Yes, I want to see if France moves back to Med. I want to see what Germany
is doing while is he talking to others but not to me?
I have time to discuss with you so I hope you are online (I'll go to
sauna soon :-) but other than that I try to be online.
Raine
From - Thu Dec 27 22:27:47 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
I don't have much time now. Maybe later tonight.
> I want to attack France. I want you to attack Russia. I want no removals
> for you or me. I want you to trust me. I want you to stop thinking that I
> am bloodthirsty deamon waiting to attack you. I want you to disband your
> fleet if France is not returning to where he was in Med.
I want to tell you right now that I don't think you are a demon. I don't
think that you are probably going to attack me. But, I do think that you
could possibly attack me. I want to prevent the possibility rahter than
the probability. This is why I want to solve the Bulgaria problem. This
will make our alliance much easier, and we won't have to spend time
worrying about each other. I know that you are at least as paranoid as I am.
> You can have Sevastopol. My fleets will head to West in fall. In spring I
> wait to see if France is truly going against G.
I think you could convoy Bul-Arm in teh Spring and then take Sev in the
Fall. This would also protect the Turkish centers from Russia. Armenia
is a weak point. It solves two problems at once.
> It is negotiable after the spring moves. We can negotiate it before the
> spring moves but it'll be highly speculative. Overall, I am willing to
> give you Bulgaria when I can be sure that I do not need to remove unit in
> this case it means when I am able to grab a center or two from France.
Okay, fair enough.
> > Oh, I thought you would dislodge my fleet for certain. You do not want
> > to now? What moves would you like us to make?
>
> That was my question. What about if I don't dislodge you? Your answer was
> then I should move Aeg-Ion?!? I tried to open a discussion of the
> possibilities we could have in case of non-dislodgement of your
> fleet. That is/was because I think that France is trying to guess if we
> start a fight or not. If we do he'll move back to Med. If we don't he
> continues against G. What have you been telling to Rod? Do you think he
> believes that we start a war?
I have not been talking much to France. I had asked him what he would do
it you attacked me, but it seems like he is not going to bother you.
This must mean that he is moving his fleets away even more, though we
will believe it when we see it. This should provide a good opening.
> It really isn't that simple. In AFG you should keep me fighting against F
> and still grab centers from me.
I suppose I could grab the Turkish centers, but I couldn't keep the
Italian ones away from France for very long. It would take me four years
to build all the fleets I'd need.
Austria
From - Thu Dec 27 22:27:49 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> > You can have Sevastopol. My fleets will head to West in fall. In spring I
> > wait to see if France is truly going against G.
>
> I think you could convoy Bul-Arm in teh Spring and then take Sev in the
> Fall. This would also protect the Turkish centers from Russia. Armenia
> is a weak point. It solves two problems at once.
Like I said you can have Sevastopol. I know that I need to occupy
Armenia. From there I can support you to Sevastopol and from there I can
support you to hold in Sevastopol if needed.
> I have not been talking much to France. I had asked him what he would do
> it you attacked me, but it seems like he is not going to bother you.
> This must mean that he is moving his fleets away even more, though we
> will believe it when we see it. This should provide a good opening.
I really want to see France moving away from me. Words means nothing here.
Do you have any clues why RF did the move against Germany?
Keith, I'd still like to hear your opinion of what would we do if I would
not dislodge you from the Ionian Sea. Would like to move voluntarily
somewhere? Or what? I am not sure if I want to dislodge you. I really
would like to see your fleet moving west but so far you have neglect to
talk about it, I guess because you are afraid of my possibility to attack
you. Well, I don't know what to say to make you believe that I am on your
side, maybe there's no way I can assure you. I'd like to hear your
thoughts on how could you move west with your fleet in case where you
trusted that I am on your side.
Raine
From - Thu Dec 27 22:27:52 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> After a long break I'd like to check if your plans are still the same.
Yes. Nothing has changed. :-)
> Are these still going to happen?
Yes. I will withdraw from Lyo, and I expect to get Bel this year.
> I will move away from Pie (and not to Mar).
I'm glad to hear it. Thanks!
> I believe Keith is _very_ nervous of my intentions. What has he asked you
> to do?
Basically, he wants me to attack you instead of Germany. Of course, I
already tried that, and it didn't work. ;-)
> I heard that the reason to attack Germany is Steve's lack of press.
It made Adam nervous, but the real reason for attacking Germany is that
it seems to be the best plan.
Rod
From - Fri Dec 28 17:02:08 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Like I said you can have Sevastopol. I know that I need to occupy
> Armenia. From there I can support you to Sevastopol and from there I can
> support you to hold in Sevastopol if needed.
I figured you would want it. It would keep the peace between us if you
took Sevastopol in exchange for Bulgaria, and you would have to keep a
unit in Armenia, anyway, so why not keep it in Sevastopol instead?
> I really want to see France moving away from me. Words means nothing here.
> Do you have any clues why RF did the move against Germany?
They moved against Germany because it made sense to do so. France wasn't
making any progress against you, and Russia wasn't making any against
me. Plus, France woulad benefit immensely if you and I began to fight,
which is what I am concerned that you're thinking about doing.
> Keith, I'd still like to hear your opinion of what would we do if I would
> not dislodge you from the Ionian Sea. Would like to move voluntarily
> somewhere? Or what? I am not sure if I want to dislodge you. I really
> would like to see your fleet moving west but so far you have neglect to
> talk about it, I guess because you are afraid of my possibility to attack
> you. Well, I don't know what to say to make you believe that I am on your
> side, maybe there's no way I can assure you. I'd like to hear your
> thoughts on how could you move west with your fleet in case where you
> trusted that I am on your side.
I figured I would hold my fleet. I don't want to move West until we
settle the eastern situation. If we have some stability areound Bulgaria
and you aren't threatening Greece, then I would be happy to use my fleet
as you see fit, or destroy it.
Austria
From - Fri Dec 28 17:02:10 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: S1908M Fri Dec 28 2001 23:30:00 +1300
Movement results for Spring of 1908. (gutsy.029)
Austria: Army Rumania HOLD.
Austria: Army Galicia -> Vienna.
Austria: Fleet Ionian Sea HOLD. (*dislodged*)
Austria: Army Vienna -> Trieste.
Austria: Army Trieste -> Serbia.
Austria: Army Budapest SUPPORT Army Trieste -> Serbia.
France: Army Marseilles -> Burgundy.
France: Army Edinburgh HOLD.
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean -> North Atlantic Ocean.
France: Army London HOLD.
France: Fleet English Channel SUPPORT Army Burgundy -> Belgium.
France: Fleet Spain (south coast) HOLD.
France: Army Burgundy -> Belgium.
France: Fleet Gulf of Lyon -> Marseilles.
Germany: Army Holland HOLD.
Germany: Army Tyrolia -> Munich.
Germany: Fleet Sweden HOLD.
Germany: Fleet Skagerrak SUPPORT Fleet Denmark -> North Sea.
Germany: Fleet Denmark -> North Sea.
Germany: Army Bohemia -> Silesia. (*bounce*)
Germany: Army Berlin SUPPORT Army Tyrolia -> Munich.
Italy: Army Bulgaria -> Greece. (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Venice SUPPORT Army Piedmont -> Tyrolia.
Italy: Fleet Black Sea -> Bulgaria (east coast). (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Aegean Sea -> Greece. (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Tunis -> Tyrrhenian Sea.
Italy: Army Piedmont -> Tyrolia.
Italy: Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea -> Ionian Sea.
Italy: Fleet Naples SUPPORT Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea -> Ionian Sea.
Russia: Fleet North Sea SUPPORT Army St Petersburg -> Norway. (*cut, dislodged*)
Russia: Army Sevastopol SUPPORT Austrian Army Rumania.
Russia: Army Warsaw -> Prussia.
Russia: Army St Petersburg -> Norway.
Russia: Army Silesia SUPPORT Army Warsaw -> Prussia. (*cut*)
The following units were dislodged:
The Austrian Fleet in the Ionian Sea can retreat to Tunis or Apulia or
Adriatic Sea or Albania or Eastern Mediterranean.
The Russian Fleet in the North Sea can retreat to Yorkshire or Norwegian Sea
or Helgoland Bight.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Retreats for Spring of 1908.
The deadline for orders will be Sat Dec 29 2001 18:47:11 +1300.
From - Fri Dec 28 17:02:11 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
How do you like my moves? They are the best I figured out to defend
against my paranoid AFG (I feel stupid to see how paranoid I was).
I still wonder what is the motive of Steve's play. Also those moves should
be the ones that show you that I am not against you. Do I manage to do
that?
I would like to have a discussion with you before you do your retreat. I
hope it is possible for you too. I really would like you to retreat to
Tunis. If I dislodge you from there you could retreat forward against
France.
If you retreat to Adr,Apu or Eas then I feel like you have declared a war
to me. I don't want that. If you really want to keep your fleet alive and
you do not trust that I am on your side then retreat to Albania from there
you can defend Greece.
Summarum:
Ion-Tun
Remove Ion
leads to AI alliance
Ion-Albania
is neutral waste of time
Other moves leads to AI war.
You have the decision Keith.
Raine
From - Fri Dec 28 17:02:22 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
You fired the first shot. Good luck.
Austria
From - Fri Dec 28 17:02:23 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
It looks like Italy is attacking me. I should be able to keep my fleet
alive for a while and occupy him, but it would be nice if you could move
your extra fleets this way as soon as you can. My negotiations with
Italy made it clear that I would be unable to help you against Germany
immediately. I think you and Russia should do okay for now. You'll get
Belgium and Berlin at least. I would help if I could.
Austria
From - Fri Dec 28 17:02:25 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
It looks like Italy is going to attack me. I can probably hold out for
some time if you are at least neutral towards me. It should be obvious
that if I fall to Italy, you'll be next. I feel like we've been honest
with each other for several turns now so hopefully we can trust each
other. I don't know what your relationship is like with Italy. I've
moved away from Warsaw so you'll have some breathing room, but my
negotiations with Italy made it clear to me that I would not be able to
help you against Germany right now. Let me know if there's anything I can
do for you. I would appreciate the support of your Sevastopol army.
Austria
From - Fri Dec 28 17:02:26 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
It looks like Italy is in leagues with France, and I fear for my
survival. I vcan probably hold out for a while. You may be in the same
boat. I will try to convince France to move a fleet or two towards
Italy, but I don't know if he will. I would love to move against Russia,
but I don't have the opportunity now.
Austria
From - Fri Dec 28 20:48:17 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi, it looks like we are both going to be in some trouble. My
negotiations did not go well with Italy, so I was not able to move against
Russia. Italy made it quite obvious to me that he planned to attack me,
though even now he claims that he will not, as long as I retreat where he
wants me to. I don't know what Italy plans to do with Tyrolia. I
wouldn't be surprised if he supported Bur-Mun or even moved Tyr-Mun with
France's support. Italy is greedy enough that he may fall into France's
trap. I am sure that Russia will take Berlin.
I don't know what we can do about it. I will try to slow my defeat
enough that France will move against Italy again. France won't let me
die or else he will never have a shot at the Italian centers.
Austria
From - Sat Dec 29 09:24:49 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> You fired the first shot. Good luck.
>
> Austria
Do you want to explain this a bit more? I really don't get your
point. What was my first shot? Was my only chance to not fire the first
shot by doing excatly what you wanted?
Keith, think about it twice. If I was to attack you, had I moved like I
did? Those moves I did, are nowhere near the optimal moves against you.
Raine
From - Sun Dec 30 08:50:15 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
I consider your moves hostile. If and when you emove your army from
Bulgaria, I will discard my fleet, but until then I will try to use it to
occupy as many of your units as possible. I don't have much other choice.
Austria
From - Sun Dec 30 17:16:41 2001
Message from raine_karjalainen at hotmail.com as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
>I consider your moves hostile. If and when you emove your army from
>Bulgaria, I will discard my fleet, but until then I will try to use it >to
>occupy as many of your units as possible. I don't have much other >choice.
I cannot believe this. I'd hate to think this as declaration of war. Can you
reply to me for one question, did I had any other set of moves I could have
done to prevent war between us?
-supported attack to Tyr - you suggested it
-dislodgement of Ionian Sea - I tried to ask a way to NOT dislodge it but I
never got feedback
-Serbia - I suggested a selfbounce in there but you refused
What was THE move that was too much for you?
If you keep saying words that you have then I am afraid that I cannot just
watch calmly and look your actions...
Raine
From - Sun Dec 30 17:16:42 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I cannot believe this. I'd hate to think this as declaration of war. Can you
> reply to me for one question, did I had any other set of moves I could have
> done to prevent war between us?
>
> -supported attack to Tyr - you suggested it
> -dislodgement of Ionian Sea - I tried to ask a way to NOT dislodge it but I
> never got feedback
> -Serbia - I suggested a selfbounce in there but you refused
>
> What was THE move that was too much for you?
There was no single move, but the combination of moving a fleet east
instead of Aeg-Ion, not withdrawing the army from Bulgaria, and
supporting yourself to Tyrolia was too much for me.
There were plenty of other things you could have done, and you know it.
Austria
From - Mon Dec 31 17:25:25 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
It looks like you have a good chance of taking Ber with Pru S Sil-Ber,
Bur-Mun. It works unless Boh S Ber-Sil and no one taps Boh. Or we can
try Bur S Sil-Mun if you prefer.
If you retreat to Hel, we can do Bel S Hel-Hol, Eng-Nth. Or you can try
to sneak into Den or Kie. We can't guarantee anything, but Germany
would have to outguess us.
Rod
From - Thu Jan 03 17:20:31 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> There was no single move, but the combination of moving a fleet east
> instead of Aeg-Ion, not withdrawing the army from Bulgaria, and
> supporting yourself to Tyrolia was too much for me.
C'mon, we talked about Aeg-Ion but you mixed it up by asking me to move
like that when I would not dislodge you from Ionian Sea! What was the
reason for me to do something like that???
I couldn't think about moving Aeg-Ion to dislodge you 'cause you were not
interested in talk about selfbounce in Serbia.
I did support myself to Tyrolia 'cause that was the only sure defence
against my fear i.e. AFG alliance. YOU suggested it to me.
Can you see my point in leaving Tunis open? It was due to uncertainty of
French moves. Had he moved back to Wes-Naf then we could have defended
against him.
Keith, we both know that AI fight now will lead us nowhere. You said that
in your opinion I have a chance to defend against France if I stab you but
you won't have that chance if you stab me. I can tell you that I have been
watching the map and trying to figure out how I could prevent French solo
by myself and I cannot see it.
At the moment it looks like (to me) AIG is the way to go. Think about it.
Germany is going to defend against France and Russia. He needs our help.
Russia is open to our attack. France won't give a center to AGI easily.
You would get the Russian centers and I would keep Bulgaria with a fleet.
I guess, Greece would be your concern next. When you grab Russian centers
(at that time I would most probably have no French centers) we could do
a peaceful border with Italian fleets in Greece and Bulgaria(sc).
I think I won't get Frech centers before you get Russia. Do you
agree? Then this plan would lead us to equal amount of centers: Russia to
you and Greece to me.
I wonder if we should start negotiating between AGI to get you believe
that I am on your side.
Raine
From - Thu Jan 03 17:20:34 2002
Broadcast message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia in 'gutsy':
Ugh, I've had a horrible illness filled week,
more pain than you can shake a stick at but
things seem to be on the ment, bet I'll be at
100% by the time I'm back at work. Damnit.
Retreat is in, it'll be a couple of days before
I log in again though I think.
Adam.............
From - Thu Jan 03 17:20:35 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Thanks for your note. Keith, would like me to convoy to Armenia in spring
> and to take Sevastopol in fall. He would have Bulgaria in return.
Hummm, well I'd sooner you decided on some other course of action,
for what that's worth. Taking Sev could weaken me so much that
I lose to Germany which would leave France nowhere else to go
but South again presumably.
> Keith tells me that he has talked a lot to you. Is it true?
Not sure that anyone's been talking a 'lot' recently, but
we're in touch.
> So, in case I'd like to make a bounce in Armenia you refuse?
Bouncing in Arm would leave you free to just order Bla - Sev
of course leaving me in Arm and you in Sev. Not the kind of
situation I'd like to be in.
> OK, thanks for this. If you and Rod are really attacking Steve I will have
> a chance to really hurt Keith. I do need your help in there. I mean in
> attacking Austria. I'd like you to co-operate with you in fall. In spring
> we cannot make a supported attack Sev-Rum but in fall it is possible. In
> spring all I need from you is to know if you are going to move to Arm or
> not. If I could be 100% sure that I could have a bounce in there that
> would make some plans easier for me. OTOH if I could be 100% sure of the
> opposite (NOT Sev-Arm) that would help me too.
>
> BTW, do you have your orders in? Someone hasn't.
I did have my orders in, but whoever didn't got them in while
I was ill so I guess that you're at least 100% sure what I'll
do last spring now. You say you'd like to cooperate in the
fall, but even Sev S Bla/Bul - Rum would likely fail, the best
we could do would be a 50/50 shot at either Gre or Rum, I'm
not yet convinced that it would be worth me risking Austrian
wrath by intervention for a 50% chance at a center for someone
who isn't even me. I'm open to persuation though.
Adam...........
From - Thu Jan 03 17:20:37 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> It looks like Italy is going to attack me. I can probably hold out for
> some time if you are at least neutral towards me. It should be obvious
> that if I fall to Italy, you'll be next.
It is indeed, Raine has asked me to 'cooperate' with him this fall,
but I'm not convinced that we could get better than a 50/50 at a
center for him, and nothing for me, even if I did use Sev to help
him. I've pointed out that risking our Wrath for the sake of
a coin-toss on Gre/Rum for him and nothing for me isn't really
worth my while.
> I feel like we've been honest
> with each other for several turns now so hopefully we can trust each
> other. I don't know what your relationship is like with Italy. I've
> moved away from Warsaw so you'll have some breathing room, but my
> negotiations with Italy made it clear to me that I would not be able to
> help you against Germany right now. Let me know if there's anything I can
> do for you. I would appreciate the support of your Sevastopol army.
I should be able to do that for you, hopefully, but I will definately
let you know if I change my mind. It might also be worth me letting
you know if Italy decides on Bla/Bul - Rum or Bul - Gre. Would it
be helpful for me to accept Italy's offer then leak to you which
of the options he tells me he's going for so you can save the day?
Adam.............
From - Thu Jan 03 17:20:40 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> It looks like you have a good chance of taking Ber with Pru S Sil-Ber,
> Bur-Mun. It works unless Boh S Ber-Sil and no one taps Boh. Or we can
> try Bur S Sil-Mun if you prefer.
The first option looks best at the moment, I'll talk to Austria
about maybe getting him to cut Boh, although he insists that he's
going to be busy with Italy. Looks to me like we made the right
choice, the paranoia they're generating between them is pretty
intense without even much intervention from us. I can't see
much else Vie could be doing and he's asked for my support
from Sev again so I have a good bargining position.
> If you retreat to Hel, we can do Bel S Hel-Hol, Eng-Nth. Or you can try
> to sneak into Den or Kie. We can't guarantee anything, but Germany
> would have to outguess us.
That's where I've sent the unit, looks like we could make some
decent progress this fall. Hurrah, the game isn't locked in
stalemate anymore!
Adam........
From - Thu Jan 03 17:20:41 2002
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: S1908R Mon Jan 07 2002 23:30:00 +1300
Retreat orders for Spring of 1908. (gutsy.030)
Austria: Fleet Ionian Sea -> Eastern Mediterranean.
Russia: Fleet North Sea -> Helgoland Bight.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Movement for Fall of 1908.
The deadline for orders will be Tue Jan 08 2002 20:00:00 +1300.
