Spring 1907
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From - Tue Dec 04 18:02:00 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
This game's gone very quiet lately, funny how deadline
extentions almost never actually lead to more negotiation,
it's just postponed until the day before as usual.
> I don't know why Italy did that. He offered to take Bul with a fleet.
> He changed his mind, I guess.
He's the player that's away isn't he, which would explain why
he's not even asking for support into Rum or whatever. It's
fairly obvious to me why he decided to use the army rather
than the fleet, it gives him more flexability, he can
choose to attack Austria if he wants. It would probably
make more sense for him, if he didn't need you support
from Ion anyway.
> I was surprised to see that Germany did not attack you. I wonder what he
> has in mind. I wonder what you have in mind.
I doubt that either of us are thinking a great deal at all,
I've been too busy to write a great deal of press and Germany
has written even less. I still think my explanation that he
thinks your a much stronger player fits fairly well, he's
in no rush to take Russia, it'll still be fresh and ripe
when he gets around to to but Austria could prove an even
bigger problem later than it is proving right now.
> Do you see that, if I support Rum with Ser and Bud, and support Vie with
> Tri (let's say I move Tyr-Vie), then there is no way for you and Germany
> to successfully attack me? This is what I was talking about last turn.
Well, if you move Tyr to Vie then Germany can get Munich into
Tyr. That gives Tyr and Boh and Gal against Vie which is only
being supported from Tri. Bud would have to chose whether to
support Vie or Rum, while Gal choses whether to attack Gal
or Rum. You'd have to guess right every time, we'd only have
to guess right once. However, I think that you probably
can defend more or less against me and Germany, the new
army in Bul is the real wildcard there. If he supports you
then Sev's support will be constantly cut and we're all
stalemated until someone switches sides, if he attacks you
then Austria will collapse pretty quickly.
> For me to attack Italy, you and Germany will have to fight. With your
> builds, you should be strong enough to do some damage to Germany if you
> want. I am willing to help. You will lose Germany as an ally, but you
> will gain me, and I can take Italy's pressure away from you.
If I attack Germany then I lose Norway for sure and pretty
well imediately. I'd be able to hold on to the rest of
the centers for a short time, but unless I could actually
TAKE one of Germany's centers I'd be on a losing course
even if you and France jumped in after only one phase.
Only Munich or Berlin stand a chance of being that center,
War would have to move to Sil this spring, but Germany
could defend Berlin win Munich, unless Munich moves to Tyr.
War - Sil; Tyr - Vie; Mun - Tyr would at least make it
possible to take Berlin. Germany and I would both take
and lose one center. However, War would look very vunerable
indeed. Would there be any way for you to take Munich?
I can't see a way for even two years from now.
Maybe this will be a five way draw if the stalemate goes
on long enough. I can't see a way to fight Germany
effectively from this position, and I can't see a way
to safely change my position to make it possible.
Adam...............
From - Tue Dec 04 18:02:08 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> That's a good idea, though it seems Keith is rather stubborn
> about wanting us to make the first move. That might be a viable
> option if we thought we could trust him, but I really have my doubts.
Yeah, I've just been going through the practicalities. I could
possibly just about take Berlin this year, at the cost of Norway
of course, and all we'd have achieved is that Germany would
take Russian centers from then on out, while Austria would
still pretty much have no choice but to sit still.
The new army in Bul is the interesting one. If Italy supports Austria
from now on then we're all utterly stalemated from this fall
onwards. If Italy takes a shot at Austria then presumably
Austrian support of Italy will fail, letting you into Italy,
and Austria itself will also start to fall.
Raine, much as I can't deal with the guy he's so obsinate,
is probably the key.
Adam............
From - Tue Dec 04 18:02:18 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France and Germany in 'gutsy':
> Sev can be defended easily enough, but we won't make any progress
> in the east. We can probably get Germany into Tyl, which may lead
> to a lucky break in Vie or Ven.
Austria tried to convince me that once he has A Vie, A Bud,
A Tri, A Ser and A Rum that he's stalemated against us
when he supports Rum with Bud and Ser and Vie with Tri.
As I pointed out to him, that's only true if Italy's makes
the right moves with F Arm and F Bla too. If he calls off
even one of those units then we have a 50/50 guess against
Austria, Bud can support one of Vie or Rum and we can
attack one of them - we only have to guess right once,
he'd have to do so indefinately.
So I'm convinced that Italy is the key, the fact he took
Bul with an army apparently suprised and annoyed Austria,
which is good. We need to find some way we can offer
Italy some Austrian center(s) without him losing his
stalemate line against France when Ion's support is
withdrawn. If we could make that offer, Italy may accept.
If Italy accepts then the stalemate is broken.
If we can't make the offer, or if Italy doesn't accept,
then either you two start fighting, possibly Germany
attacks me or we call a five way draw from what I can
make out. I could attack Germany, as Austria keep trying
to talk me into doing, but I'd at best stay even for
a year before shrinking under Germany's wrath.
The moves for this spring:
A Mos S A Sev
A War S A Gal
A Sev S F Bla - Rum
A Ukr S F Bla - Rum (You never know, it might look suspicious at least)
A Gal S A Boh - Vie (Almost certain not to work)
A Mun - Tyr (Probably work since Tyr - Vie is almost certain)
That'll leave us with an elegent arch of a stalemate, Italy
being the keystone at the apex who decides, basically, if
the stalemate is stable or if it all collapses back into
anarchy.
Does this analysis seem right to you both? If it is then I
suspect the only way forward will be for France to pull one
of his fleets back enough for a new Italian fleet to get
into Ion. Italy won't need Austrian support anymore so he
can help in Austria. Once we get somewhere there then
Germany and I can take Italian centers from behind to
force the end of the Med stalemate.
And that's probably a longshot.
Adam............
From - Tue Dec 04 18:02:25 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Well, from what I can make out you have managed to position youself
as the keystone in the arch that's stalemating just about he
entire map from now on. You can keep the stalemate going as
long as you want, or you can turn on Austria and see what
happens when everything crumbles.
I'd like to find a way we can get you attacking Austria without
it meaning that your defence against France falls when he
withdraws his support from Ion. Unfortunately, I'm not convinced
there is one. Can you see any way? Maybe if France pulled
one of his fleets back far enough for a new build from
you to get into Ion and take that fleet's place?
Adam..........
From - Tue Dec 04 18:02:51 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia and
Germany in 'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
> So I'm convinced that Italy is the key
You're probably right, but Raine seems rather single-minded. It will be difficult
to turn him against Austria.
> The moves for this spring:
> A Mos S A Sev
> A War S A Gal
> A Sev S F Bla - Rum
> A Ukr S F Bla - Rum (You never know, it might look suspicious at least)
> A Gal S A Boh - Vie (Almost certain not to work)
> A Mun - Tyr (Probably work since Tyr - Vie is almost certain)
Ukr S Sev is safer. I don't think the feint is likely enough to fool Keith to be
worth risking anything over.
Mun-Tyr fails if Gal S Boh-Vie bounces Tyr-Vie and Pie's support is cut, which seems
likely. I think Boh S Mun-Tyr is better.
> I suspect the only way forward will be for France to pull one
> of his fleets back enough for a new Italian fleet to get
> into Ion.
I'd be happy to do that, but I doubt a partial withdrawal will be sufficient.
Something like MAO-Eng, Par-Bur would be much more convincing, but would damage
FGR at least as much as AI. We could throw in Den-Nth, Hol-Bel and simulate a F/G
war, but then
Mun-Tyr is out of place.
Another bold option is Mun S Pie-Tyl, Boh S Gal-Vie. If it pops A Tyl then we can
force Vie in the Fall with Boh S Tyl-Vie, Gal-Bud. This move would let Italy into
Pie in the Fall, so it scrambles my line a bit if it doesn't work. I would prefer
to keep MAO and Par in place, so I'd have to do Lyo-Mar in the Fall and leave a
little hole in the Med, but I don't think that's a big problem.
What do you think?
Rod
From - Tue Dec 04 18:02:54 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany and France in 'gutsy':
> > So I'm convinced that Italy is the key
>
> You're probably right, but Raine seems rather single-minded.
> It will be difficult to turn him against Austria.
He's so single minded that you wonder if he's even got that
one mind a lot of the time, and I've had bad experiences
trying to convince (and even extort) him into attacking
Austria before. He's also the absent player at the moment
so it's unlikely we'll get to talk to him much before
the deadline, if at all.
> Ukr S Sev is safer. I don't think the feint is likely
> enough to fool Keith to be worth risking anything over.
You're right of course, I was thinking so hard about the
stalemate Austria had pointed out I forgot he doesn't actually
HAVE to order as he indicated he would. I've changed that
now.
> Mun-Tyr fails if Gal S Boh-Vie bounces Tyr-Vie and Pie's support
> is cut, which seems likely. I think Boh S Mun-Tyr is better.
Again true, and I wish I'd remember for more than about a day at
at time that Pie can move to Tyr at all.
> > I suspect the only way forward will be for France to pull one
> > of his fleets back enough for a new Italian fleet to get
> > into Ion.
>
> I'd be happy to do that, but I doubt a partial withdrawal will
> be sufficient.
If I were Italy, and I've spent half the game wishing I were
so that Italy would act more rationally, I'd be happy to take
Austrian supply centers if I didn't need his support in Ion
anymore. That just means that Wes would have to move to
Spa or MAO for a winter season to give me long enough to
get a build, put it in Rom and do Tys S Nap - Ion and Rom - Nap.
Suddenly my dependence on Austria is broken which frees up
all kinds of things.
Like you say though, Raine isn't me and he'd probably be
tempted to do Tun S Tys - Wes. And Lyo could cut
Tys support too which makes things a little more
akward. Complicated, not much point wondering about
it unless Raine ageed in theory anyway.
> Something like MAO-Eng, Par-Bur would be much
> more convincing, but would damage FGR at least as much as AI.
I wasn't really thinking it was designed to fool anyone,
just give Italy enough rope to attack Austria and latterly
hang himself.
> We could throw in Den-Nth, Hol-Bel and simulate a F/G war, but then
> Mun-Tyr is out of place.
I doubt that Keith would be convinced until a supply center
changed hands at the very least, and Raine would still have
to do what he's told while the French fleets are baring down
on him.
> Another bold option is Mun S Pie-Tyl, Boh S Gal-Vie. If it pops
> A Tyl then we can force Vie in the Fall with Boh S Tyl-Vie, Gal-Bud.
I like that, it's perhaps more unexpected to me because I keep
forgetting Pie can get at Tyr at all. I think that there's a
very good chance Tyr will move to Vie, and I'd expect to see
the support from Tri too so I think that there's a fair chance
of this working.
> This move would let Italy into Pie in the Fall, so it scrambles
> my line a bit if it doesn't work. I would prefer to
> keep MAO and Par in place, so I'd have to do Lyo-Mar
> in the Fall and leave a little hole in the Med,
> but I don't think that's a big problem.
I think that a hole in the med is quite possibly a good thing
if it also gives Italy the chance to take an Austrian center
in the fall and replace that red F Ion with a green one too.
It looks pretty good to me, but I think that Steve will have
to say a little more than he did last season if you're going
to be able to arrange it.
Adam...........
From - Tue Dec 04 18:02:56 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Greetings from New Orleans! I did enjoy the stay in there. Now I am back
in Finland.
I was enormously busy before the trip. I neended to finish my poster and I
got it ready just before getting to airport. I had my initial orders in
and I didn't have the time to check my mails before I left. I felt bad
about my move to Bul with army when I saw your mails. In the end you said
it is ok but I have the feeling that you'd preferred it the other way. I
am sorry about that. I hope you can still trust me. If I remember correct
my idea was to move to Bul with army in order to talk Adam (Russia) to
build to Stp. I didn't manage to do the set absense correctly. I managed
to set only monday.
(BTW, could you tell me what I did wrong? I did sent a
signo...
SET ABSENCE nov 25 TO dec 6
signo...)
Then I was disappointed to see that the builds processed when I was away
:-( I had no chance to try to talk Adam to build to north. I don't know if
I had had any success but I would have tried...
About builds: You build to Tri instead of Vie? I hope you are not planning
to stop working with me. Would you ease my fears by telling the reasoning
to build to Tri and not to Vie?
About future:
I can give you two uncuttable support to Rum-Sev. Adam can still hold Sev
if he wants to. But in the long run we should get through. Also I am
willing to move Bul-Bla-Sev if you want it that way. My army in Venice is
ready to help you if you want it to.
I am waiting to hear from you.
Raine
Ps. I hope I'll have more time to gutsy from now on. I mean, 'cause my
visit to US is behind.
From - Tue Dec 04 18:02:58 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia and
Germany in 'gutsy':
Adam,
> > Ukr S Sev is safer.
> I've changed that now.
Sev S Ukr-Rum might be preferable if Mun S Pie-Tyl, Boh S Gal-Vie (which I think
is better than Gal S Boh-Vie) - it provides some protection for A Gal, and Sev is
at risk only if Rum-Sev, which is unlikely.
> I wasn't really thinking it was designed to fool anyone,
> just give Italy enough rope to attack Austria and latterly
> hang himself.
I doubt he'd take the bait unless we gave him a lot more rope.
Rod
From - Tue Dec 04 18:03:00 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Master, Austria,
Germany, Russia and France in 'gutsy':
Hi all,
I have safely returned from US. I did enjoy my 1st visit in there. I was
in New Orleans. I heard about how to 'earn' a necklace but I thought it
was only at Mardi Gras(sp?) party but I learned that I was wrong. Anyway I
was prepared to _not_ bring a neclace to my girlfriend as a present :-)
It was quite hectic before I left Finland. I had a poster presentation
in the meeting and I got the poster finished just before I left to
airport. So forgive me my silence. I'll be in touch with you.
In a hurry I screwed the set absence. I sent to judge
signo...
SET ABSENCE nov 25 TO dec 6
signof...
and all I got was the first day :-( If some of you have any ideas what
went wrong I'd be happy to hear it.
Raine
From - Tue Dec 04 18:03:01 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Thanks for your note. Like I said in my message to all of you I didn't
manage to set absence correctly. My idea was to move to Bul with army and
try to get you to build north. Then there would have been more reasons for
me to attack Austria.
Have you talked with France about retreating from Med? I cannot do
anything against Austria as long as France is getting all the goods I
could get from Austria.
I can see an alternative also. We could start GIR alliance where you and
Steve would move against Rod in north. Then France could not just stay in
Med holding on the stalemate. I dare not attack Austria before that.
Raine
From - Tue Dec 04 18:03:03 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
I am very glad to hear from you! I really like to talk with you althought
you have not moved the way I had preferred :-) Now I hope I'll have more
time to spent with gutsy 'cause all the travelling is over for awhile.
> It's been almost two weeks since your last letter to me. I'm sorry for not
> writing sooner, but I didn't see much chance that you would attack Austria.
> Now that Adam will lose his southern fleet we might have a bit more to
> discuss.
Yes, I think I reached something when Russian fleets from south
disappeared.
> I recognize that Rod is pressuring you from the west and that I'm not in a
> position to attack him, but I'm very interested in talking more. Please
> write if you can.
I have heard that Rod might move one of his fleets away in order to give
me a chance to attack Austria. I won't believe it until I see it.
Do you have a concrete plan to attack France or Russia? I see that you
have been waiting to see what'll happen next. How long are you willing to
wait?
Raine
From - Tue Dec 04 18:03:04 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Do you think we could do something more in Med than just hold on a
stalemate? If you retreat even one fleet from Med it gives me some space
to consider attacking Austria. BTW, you are not able to lose a center if
you retreat from Med.
Raine
From - Tue Dec 04 18:03:05 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Have you talked with France about retreating from Med? I cannot do
> anything against Austria as long as France is getting all the goods I
> could get from Austria.
I realize that there's not much in it for you to attack Austria
if that means that his support from Ion stops. As soon as that
support stops France would be all over you. I have talked to
France about him retreating from the Med enough that you could
get your own fleet (probably a new one from taking an Austrian
center) into Ion and so free yourself of your dependence on
the Austrian good will.
I think that you and he should talk about this idea since he
said he's probably be prepared to do something like that but
doubted you would accept.
> I can see an alternative also. We could start GIR alliance where you and
> Steve would move against Rod in north.
I guess it would be possible, just, for Steve to do something
but I'm really not in a practical place to do anyting against
Rot. F Nwy could be pushed into service I suppose, but only
at the risk of Germany taking Nwy AND StP if it stays far
from where it is.
> Then France could not just stay in
> Med holding on the stalemate. I dare not attack Austria before that.
As I said, I think France might agree to withdraw just long
enough for you to take Ion from Austria and have your independence
which would allow you to attack Austria without fear from anyone
other than Austria's revenge. I'm sure you can see that Germany
and myself would be a huge distraction for Austria in this case
and retaliation from Keith is probably unlikely to be present,
and certain not to be efficent.
Adam.........
From - Tue Dec 04 18:03:07 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> I doubt he'd take the bait unless we gave him a lot more rope.
He's been in touch. I have little doubt that he's imploying
his tactic of seeming to agree before actually refusing but
he seemed more upbeat about the idea of taking on Austria
if you back off a little than I first thought. I've told
him to talk to you about which units need to go where in
the Med to enable him to get his own fleet into Ion rather
than an Austrian one and thereby break his dependence on
Keith.
Adam............
From - Tue Dec 04 18:03:08 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> > Do you see that, if I support Rum with Ser and Bud, and support Vie with
> > Tri (let's say I move Tyr-Vie), then there is no way for you and Germany
> > to successfully attack me? This is what I was talking about last turn.
>
> Well, if you move Tyr to Vie then Germany can get Munich into
> Tyr. That gives Tyr and Boh and Gal against Vie which is only
> being supported from Tri. Bud would have to chose whether to
> support Vie or Rum, while Gal choses whether to attack Gal
> or Rum. You'd have to guess right every time, we'd only have
> to guess right once. However, I think that you probably
> can defend more or less against me and Germany, the new
> army in Bul is the real wildcard there. If he supports you
> then Sev's support will be constantly cut and we're all
> stalemated until someone switches sides, if he attacks you
> then Austria will collapse pretty quickly.
That's right, I will defend Vienna with Budapest and support Rumania with
Serbia and hopefully an Italian unit (in exchange for my supporting him
with my fleet in the Ionian Sea).
> War - Sil; Tyr - Vie; Mun - Tyr would at least make it
> possible to take Berlin. Germany and I would both take
> and lose one center. However, War would look very vunerable
> indeed. Would there be any way for you to take Munich?
> I can't see a way for even two years from now.
If you are in Silesia, then Germany becomes extremely vulnerable. It is
easy for us to dislodge him from Galacia and Bohemia. We would quickly
have large numbers against Munich and Berlin, and he doesn't have the
armies in place or the capabilities of building enough of them to defend
himself. If we actually destroy some of his armies during the attack,
then he is even weaker. I can see us easily destroying Galacia and Bohemia.
> Maybe this will be a five way draw if the stalemate goes
> on long enough. I can't see a way to fight Germany
> effectively from this position, and I can't see a way
> to safely change my position to make it possible.
There isn't going to be a five-way draw. You need to decide what to do.
Will you wait the stalemate out until Germany becomes tired of it and
decides to get rid of you? I'm no danger to Germany or you right now or
for the near future. Italy is the only one I can get supply centers from
right now, and if Italy and I attack each other, the threat Austria poses
to either you ro Germany is zero, and Germany has no reason to take you
out. Better to attack him first.
That is my view of things, anyway.
Austria
From - Tue Dec 04 18:03:11 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> I have safely returned from US.
Welcome back! I haven't been to New Orleans yet. I hear they have good music there.
> Do you think we could do something more in Med than just hold on a
> stalemate?
It does seem we're heading toward a five-way draw. :-( Something needs to change.
> If you retreat even one fleet from Med it gives me some space
> to consider attacking Austria.
That's an intriguing possibility. I've been thinking that since I can't make any
gains in the south, I'll have to attack Germany eventually. However, I would lose
a war against Germany unless I have help. So I've just been waiting to see what happens.
Maybe we could plan something like FIR. If you enable Russia to make gains against
Austria, then hopefully he'll be able to assist me against Germany. Of course, you
would grow as well. What do you think of this?
I can't make a move against G until I see that you and R are chewing up Austria, but
of course you can't turn against Austria if I am a threat. Would Wes-Spa give you
sufficient room to attack Austria? I don't want to hear that you'll "consider" it - I
want you to *do* it. (Or at least say that it's "fairly likely".) ;-) I could also
do Lyo-Mar if you like, but I would need your assurance that you won't attack Pie -
I don't want that army to be popped.
Rod
From - Tue Dec 04 18:03:15 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
It is true that I would have preferred your fleet in Bulgaria rather than
your army. I hope it doesn't cause problems down the road, but we will
have to work with it.
I am still convinced that if we simply hold out against France and
Germany, something is going to have to break between them. Even if we
can just get Russia and Germany to attack each other, that should be
enough. Can you convince Russia that you will attack me if he decides to
attack Germany?
I would like to request that you support Rumania holding with one of your
units, say your army in Bulgaria. This way it is not possible for Russia
or Germany to break through my defenses (much like I am supporting you
against France). I can support Arm-Sev with Rum, but it will probably be
cut, or else Russia will simply support himself.
As far as my building in Trieste rather than Vienna, I think they are
nearly identical moves. I hoped that by building in Tri I might save
Tyrolia for one more turn (through a trick). If France helps Germany,
then Tyrolia is gone anyway, no matter what we do (or France could take
Tuscany). I actually switched my build around several times. I also did
consider that you might want to attack me, because I hadn't heard from
you, but if this were the case, building in Tri vs. Vie wouldn't make a
whole lot of difference, so this was not the foremost thing on my mind.
We should keep our eyes on France. If he forces his way into Tuscany and
poses some danger, then you might need another build.
Let me know your thoughts.
Austria
From - Tue Dec 04 18:03:16 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Regarding the SET ABSENCE command, it looked fine the way you had it.
Perhaps it did not wait for you because you did not have any builds to
issue. That's the only thing I could think of.
I have been working on Russia, but I don't think there was any chance
that he would have considered building in Stp, so I wouldn't worry about
it too much.
Austria
From - Wed Dec 05 15:54:07 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany
and Russia in 'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
I received a letter from Raine asking me to partially withdraw from the Med so that
he can "consider" attacking Austria. I'm not confident that he'll actually do so,
but I figure I might as well humor him and see what happens. I sent him a friendly
reply but have not yet received a response.
I have entered Pie-Tyl, Par H, MAO H, and a little dance in the south. Unless I hear
otherwise Real Soon Now, I'll assume we're planning Mun S Pie-Tyl, Boh S Gal-Vie,
Mos S Sev, Sev S Ukr-Rum.
It has occurred to me that if Keith trusts Raine to support Rum then he can do
Tri/Bud S Tyl-Vie and we won't actually pop A Tyl after all, but I still think
this is our best shot at getting lucky.
Rod
From - Wed Dec 05 15:54:19 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany and France in 'gutsy':
> I received a letter from Raine asking me to partially withdraw from
> the Med so that he can "consider" attacking Austria. I'm not
> confident that he'll actually do so, but I figure I might as
> well humor him and see what happens. I sent him a friendly
> reply but have not yet received a response.
I doubt he'll do much other than perhaps try and break through
your own lines, so be careful you don't let him into Mar or
wherever.
> I have entered Pie-Tyl, Par H, MAO H, and a little dance in
> the south. Unless I hear otherwise Real Soon Now, I'll assume
> we're planning Mun S Pie-Tyl, Boh S Gal-Vie, Mos S Sev, Sev S Ukr-Rum.
Yeah, that's what I've got in the end.
> It has occurred to me that if Keith trusts Raine to support Rum
> then he can do Tri/Bud S Tyl-Vie and we won't actually pop A Tyl
> after all, but I still think this is our best shot at getting lucky.
While I think he probably can trust Raine, at least until that
fleet Ion doesn't have to support Italy, I get the impression he
wanted Bul to be taken with a fleet and is unhappy with Raine
over that. It's possible that he's not sure of Raine's intentions
right now.
Adam..........
From - Wed Dec 05 15:54:21 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> If you are in Silesia, then Germany becomes extremely vulnerable. It is
> easy for us to dislodge him from Galacia and Bohemia. We would quickly
> have large numbers against Munich and Berlin, and he doesn't have the
> armies in place or the capabilities of building enough of them to defend
> himself. If we actually destroy some of his armies during the attack,
> then he is even weaker. I can see us easily destroying Galacia and Bohemia.
I could see possibly destroying Gal, but Boh has retreats into
Mun or Sil itself (which would move to Ber presumably).
I'd like to see a more definate plan, where I can be assured
of Germany loosing a supply center other than Berlin before
I lost one other than Norway. That's expecting a lot though,
I realize.
> There isn't going to be a five-way draw. You need to decide what to do.
> Will you wait the stalemate out until Germany becomes tired of it and
> decides to get rid of you? I'm no danger to Germany or you right now or
> for the near future. Italy is the only one I can get supply centers from
> right now, and if Italy and I attack each other, the threat Austria poses
> to either you ro Germany is zero, and Germany has no reason to take you
> out. Better to attack him first.
I think I'll pretty much play to hold this season and
see what happens with Raine, he's a bit of a wild card
at the moment, his taking Bul with an army against
your wishes is odd, I can't see how he can attack you
without losing the support of Ion but he may be too
stupid to realize that.
Adam.........
From - Wed Dec 05 15:54:22 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> It is true that I would have preferred your fleet in Bulgaria rather than
> your army. I hope it doesn't cause problems down the road, but we will
> have to work with it.
There will be no problems from me. I need your Ion S Tun and if you don't
give it then France will take a SC from me. Once again I am sorry that I
ended to Bul with army. I _do_ realize that if we start to fight it is
France who takes the benefit. By attacking you I might get a center but
France would get one from me too.
> I am still convinced that if we simply hold out against France and
> Germany, something is going to have to break between them. Even if we
> can just get Russia and Germany to attack each other, that should be
> enough. Can you convince Russia that you will attack me if he decides to
> attack Germany?
No. I have tried that for a long time but Adam won't believe it 'cause I
have promised to attack you so many times and nothing has happened (in
fact I have always wanted him to do the first move). Now I have tried the
other story FR attack against France in british island but Adam was not
even thinking about it. I am willing to wait. My prediction is that Adam
will do something foolish. He has been (sofar) the most impatient player
(let's forget the eliminated players). I am also a bit worried of your
react to my army in Bulgaria. I hope you don't think that I am doing
something foolish against you. I have had my opportunities to attack you
but I have preferred to co-operate with you. My believe is that AI war
means stronger FG and they would get the best out of it.
> I would like to request that you support Rumania holding with one of your
> units, say your army in Bulgaria. This way it is not possible for Russia
> or Germany to break through my defenses (much like I am supporting you
> against France). I can support Arm-Sev with Rum, but it will probably be
> cut, or else Russia will simply support himself.
I will order Bul S Rum. I hope you'll continue to support Tunis.
> As far as my building in Trieste rather than Vienna, I think they are
> nearly identical moves. I hoped that by building in Tri I might save
> Tyrolia for one more turn (through a trick). If France helps Germany,
> then Tyrolia is gone anyway, no matter what we do (or France could take
> Tuscany). I actually switched my build around several times. I also did
> consider that you might want to attack me, because I hadn't heard from
> you, but if this were the case, building in Tri vs. Vie wouldn't make a
> whole lot of difference, so this was not the foremost thing on my mind.
You didn't hear from me 'cause I was in New Orleans. If you are interested
in astronomy (and my contribution :-) check
http://www.aas.org/publications/baas/v33n3/dps2001/AuthorIndex.htm#K
and from there Karjalainen, R.
> We should keep our eyes on France. If he forces his way into Tuscany and
> poses some danger, then you might need another build.
In fact I got a mail from Rod !!! Previous was maybe a month ago. He tried
to get me to attack you. I asked him to retreat 1st from Med and then I
would consider his proposal again.
> Let me know your thoughts.
At first I thought that I'll support Bul to stay 'cause I was a bit afraid
of your moves (like Ion-Gre and supported attack to Bul). Then I realized
that I have been afraid of your stab from the very beginning, also if you
are to stab me there's not much I can do. I can try to minimize the
losses. But I prefer to work with you and I hope you prefer to work with
me too.
So I am ordering Bul S Rum. Like you asked. I would like to move Bla-Con
but I don't know if I have the guts. To be honest, I am afraid of your
react to my stupid move to Bul with army instead of fleet. My only excuse
is that it was my initial set of moves that I had no time to change and I
did not get a chance to read your mails where you asked to go to Bul with
fleet (after I asked about it).
I am willing to listen to your suggestion. So please let me know how you
feel about the situation.
Raine
From - Wed Dec 05 15:54:24 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
It looks like if you stay on your present course, you will eventually
wear down Italy. I am assuming Germany will break into Tyrolia fairly soon.
You will not consider attacking Germany instead? Any gains against Italy
will be hard fought unless I help you, while Germany can stab Russia at
almost any time for enourmous gains. I don't know what is holding
Germany up from doing this. Germany would be in quite a bit of trouble
if Russia and I teamed up against him, and if you even hinted at moving a
fleet towards Germany (into Eng for example). You could defend against
Italy easily with minimal units, assuming Italy didn't decide to attack
me instead of you.
Austria
From - Wed Dec 05 15:54:26 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> Welcome back! I haven't been to New Orleans yet. I hear they have good
> music there.
They do! We went to one of those jazzplaces (jazzholes :-) to hear some
famous New Orleans jazz. It really was worth it.
> It does seem we're heading toward a five-way draw. :-( Something needs to
> change.
Ok, now you got me to worried about FA co-operation against me :-|
> That's an intriguing possibility. I've been thinking that since I can't
> make any gains in the south, I'll have to attack Germany
> eventually. However, I would lose a war against Germany unless I have
> help. So I've just been waiting to see what happens.
I am ready to help you. I can give you a peaceful western med. I might be
able to help from Tyrolia although if we start to co-operate I think I am
really busy against Austria. I guess you don't want Italian fleets to
Atlantic to help you :-)
> Maybe we could plan something like FIR. If you enable Russia to make gains
> against Austria, then hopefully he'll be able to assist me against
> Germany. Of course, you would grow as well. What do you think of this?
FIR is a possibility. Russia would be ready to go for it. I hate it that I
did not have the chance to try to manipulate Adam to build to Stp instead
of Mos.
> I can't make a move against G until I see that you and R are chewing up
> Austria, but of course you can't turn against Austria if I am a
> threat. Would Wes-Spa give you sufficient room to attack Austria? I
> don't want to hear that you'll "consider" it - I
> want you to *do* it. (Or at least say that it's "fairly likely".) ;-) I
> could also do Lyo-Mar if you like, but I would need your assurance that
> you won't attack Pie - I don't want that army to be popped.
I want more :-) Not much but still, how about Wes-Spa(sc) combined with
Pie-Mar? Anyway, the point is that _you_ should make the first move. You
have nothing to lose. I cannot attack Austria as long as you are ready to
take Tunis from me when I turn my back.
If you are serious about FI then you should propose something like:
Mao-Eng
Par-Bur
Pie-Mar
Wes-Mao
Lyo could hold if you think I would be stupid enough to follow you.
Naf hold if you like.
You should inform Adam about this. Adam should move Mos-Stp to prevent
Steve from taking Nwy from him.
If you would propose something like that then I would be happy :-)
But seriously think about it.
Raine
From - Wed Dec 05 15:54:28 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I talked with Rod about the possibility of FRI. This is a little progress
'cause now we have something real to discuss with.
> I realize that there's not much in it for you to attack Austria
> if that means that his support from Ion stops. As soon as that
> support stops France would be all over you. I have talked to
> France about him retreating from the Med enough that you could
> get your own fleet (probably a new one from taking an Austrian
> center) into Ion and so free yourself of your dependence on
> the Austrian good will.
France did talk about the possibility to retreat from Med but I don't
believe it untill I see it. By retreating let's say Pie-Mar and
Wes-Spa(sc) I would have a chance to hit Austria with force.
> I think that you and he should talk about this idea since he
> said he's probably be prepared to do something like that but
> doubted you would accept.
We have talked about it. The problem is that we can talk about it but I
want to see some action :-) If I make the 1st move against Austria FG will
take the advantage G stabs you and F me. I don't want that.
> I guess it would be possible, just, for Steve to do something
> but I'm really not in a practical place to do anyting against
> Rot. F Nwy could be pushed into service I suppose, but only
> at the risk of Germany taking Nwy AND StP if it stays far
> from where it is.
You can harm France. You just need Steve to work with you. You have a nice
'no moves' situation up there. Why not change it to co-operation against
F.
> As I said, I think France might agree to withdraw just long
> enough for you to take Ion from Austria and have your independence
> which would allow you to attack Austria without fear from anyone
> other than Austria's revenge. I'm sure you can see that Germany
> and myself would be a huge distraction for Austria in this case
> and retaliation from Keith is probably unlikely to be present,
> and certain not to be efficent.
I am ready for this but only after I am sure that France is not able to
take Tunis from me.
As a sign of goodwill I can tell you that my most probable moves in east
are Arm-Sev (this should not be problem as I tell it to you in advance)
Bla S Bul
Bul S Rum
Those might change but at the moment this is what I am plannig to do.
After French retreat we can aim at Austria. Then I would like to ask you
to not build _any_ southern fleets. I would be willing to retreat from Bla
and give Rum to you but only if you can promise not to build a southern
fleet.
Raine
From - Wed Dec 05 15:54:29 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
What are you waiting for?
Austria
From - Wed Dec 05 16:05:32 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany
and Russia in 'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
I just received simultaneous communiques from Austria and Italy telling me that I
should move to Eng, and then everything will be wonderful. (Italy turns against
Austria, Austria attacks Germany, blah blah blah.)
I believe that I am the target of a coordinated propaganda campaign. Nevertheless,
I will give Raine *part* of what he asks for and see how he responds.
OTOH, Germany has been strangely silent lately, so maybe I need to worry about him
as well.
;-)
My orders remain Pie-Tyl, MAO/Par H.
Rod
From - Wed Dec 05 16:05:34 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> I might be
> able to help from Tyrolia although if we start to co-operate I think I am
> really busy against Austria.
You and R against Austria is all I really need right now.
> I guess you don't want Italian fleets to
> Atlantic to help you :-)
No, I don't think that will be necessary. :-)
> Anyway, the point is that _you_ should make the first move.
I understand.
> Mao-Eng
> Par-Bur
> Pie-Mar
> Wes-Mao
I'm willing to make the first move by withdrawing so that you can "consider" your
options, but I am not willing to start the war against Germany at this time. Is the
former sufficient for you?
> Not much but still, how about Wes-Spa(sc) combined with Pie-Mar?
I will withdraw from Wes and Pie. That is the "first move" that I am willing to make.
Will *you* then be willing to make the second move next season?
Rod
From - Wed Dec 05 16:05:36 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> You will not consider attacking Germany instead? Any gains against Italy
> will be hard fought unless I help you, while Germany can stab Russia at
> almost any time for enourmous gains.
That is a disincentive for me to attack Germany. If I stab him and he cashes in his
enormous gains, I'll be fighting a losing war.
> Germany would be in quite a bit of trouble
> if Russia and I teamed up against him
If you do so, *then* I will certainly join in the fun.
> and if you even hinted at moving a
> fleet towards Germany (into Eng for example).
I will not do so until he is distracted by opposition from the east.
Rod
From - Wed Dec 05 16:05:38 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I will order Bul S Rum. I hope you'll continue to support Tunis.
Yes, sounds good.
> You didn't hear from me 'cause I was in New Orleans. If you are interested
> in astronomy (and my contribution :-) check
> http://www.aas.org/publications/baas/v33n3/dps2001/AuthorIndex.htm#K
> and from there Karjalainen, R.
I understand your absence. I have a degree in astronomy, but I was
interested in extragalactic objects, not planetary dynamics.
> In fact I got a mail from Rod !!! Previous was maybe a month ago. He tried
> to get me to attack you. I asked him to retreat 1st from Med and then I
> would consider his proposal again.
Maybe he'll do it. I think he is more likely to work with Germany
against you. If Germany gets into Tyrolia and you don't move Tus-Rom,
then they can take Venice, probably.
> At first I thought that I'll support Bul to stay 'cause I was a bit afraid
> of your moves (like Ion-Gre and supported attack to Bul). Then I realized
> that I have been afraid of your stab from the very beginning, also if you
> are to stab me there's not much I can do. I can try to minimize the
> losses. But I prefer to work with you and I hope you prefer to work with
> me too.
Yes.
> So I am ordering Bul S Rum. Like you asked. I would like to move Bla-Con
> but I don't know if I have the guts. To be honest, I am afraid of your
> react to my stupid move to Bul with army instead of fleet. My only excuse
> is that it was my initial set of moves that I had no time to change and I
> did not get a chance to read your mails where you asked to go to Bul with
> fleet (after I asked about it).
Why do you want to move Bla-Con? Oh I see, to protect Smy? Why don't
you move Bul-Con instead? This would make me happy, you would be able to
protect all of your centers, and you would still be able to support me
with your F Bla. Maybe you could even shuffle things around so that your
army is in Arm. You could also convoy Bul-Bla-Arm, move Arm-Ank. I may
not need your support of Rum until the Fall.
There are many options. Let me know what you are concerned about, and we
can work something out, I'm sure. I think it is good to keep your units
bordering Sev, because I think it won't be too difficult to maneuver
Russia into a position where you are able to take it.
Austria
From - Wed Dec 05 17:18:34 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> That is a disincentive for me to attack Germany. If I stab him and he cashes in
> his enormous gains, I'll be fighting a losing war.
>
> > Germany would be in quite a bit of trouble
> > if Russia and I teamed up against him
>
> If you do so, *then* I will certainly join in the fun.
>
> > and if you even hinted at moving a
> > fleet towards Germany (into Eng for example).
>
> I will not do so until he is distracted by opposition from the east.
What we have here is a chicken and egg situation. I have been trying for
years to get Russia to attack Germany. I've been trying to get you to
attack Germany. Both of you say you will attack Germany if the other
does, but neither of you wants to move first.
If Russia and I act together, then Germany will have few resources to use
against you. We pose the major threat, because you are not in a position
to make quick gains against him, although you are in a better position to
have lasting and more substantial gains in the long run.
Austria
From - Wed Dec 05 17:18:35 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Are you willing to move against Germany, or are you still holding out
that you will be able to convince Italy to attack me?
France says he will contribute against Germany if you and I attack
Germany. You say you will attack Germany if France helps out, right?
What are your thoughts?
Austria
From - Wed Dec 05 17:18:36 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France and Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi,
Just catching up.
Pie - Tyl makes sense. I'll support you from Munich and attack Vienna as
described. Everything else of mine just sits and holds.
I think we're a turn or two from making something happen, but attacking
Tyrolia is definitely the best way to try.
- Steve
P.S. I, too, have heard from Raine and Keith in the same coordinated manner
as you Rod. At this point, I would be very surprised if they turned on each
other no matter what we do.
From - Wed Dec 05 17:18:38 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany
and Russia in 'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
Raine sent me a message yesterday and I quickly replied, but then I did not hear
from him until today - four minutes after I had received a message from Austria.
Is that suspicious, or am I just paranoid? ;-) I get the impression that Raine
does not respond to me until he has gotten Austria's blessing.
Raine asked me to withdraw from Pie. I believe their goal is Position 3 at:
http://devel.diplom.org/Online/StalematesAtoY/southern-min.htm
The setup is Ven S Tus-Pie, TyS-Tus, Nap/Ion S Tun-TyS. (Or Tun S Nap-TyS,
Ion S Tun or Ion S Nap-TyS and they retain Tun, though Raine could afford to
lose Tun and remove A Bul and the stalemate line still holds.)
So, I think I need to do Lyo-Tus. I'm still willing to try Pie-Tyl, though it
might lead to an awkward position.
Comments?
Rod
From - Wed Dec 05 17:18:39 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> If Russia and I act together, then Germany will have few resources to use
> against you.
Yes!! I agree completely! So when will it happen?
Rod
From - Wed Dec 05 17:18:41 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Nice to be online at the same time.
> Maybe he'll do it. I think he is more likely to work with Germany
> against you. If Germany gets into Tyrolia and you don't move Tus-Rom,
> then they can take Venice, probably.
After such a long silence I doubt his goodwill.
> Why do you want to move Bla-Con? Oh I see, to protect Smy? Why don't
> you move Bul-Con instead? This would make me happy, you would be able to
> protect all of your centers, and you would still be able to support me
> with your F Bla. Maybe you could even shuffle things around so that your
> army is in Arm. You could also convoy Bul-Bla-Arm, move Arm-Ank. I may
> not need your support of Rum until the Fall.
No no, I don't want to protect Smyrna. The reason for Bla-Con would be
1) no chance to get to Sev even if we both want it
2) I'd like to change your fleet in Ion to army in Vie.
Then we would be both stronger. Also I should not be worried every time if
I will get your support or not :-)
> There are many options. Let me know what you are concerned about, and we
> can work something out, I'm sure. I think it is good to keep your units
> bordering Sev, because I think it won't be too difficult to maneuver
> Russia into a position where you are able to take it.
I am concerned about my future. I have been away from discussions for over
a week. Then suddenly France replies to my mail. Should I believe his nice
words? Maybe there is a FA plan to sweep Italy out 'cause stalemate has
been there for long enough? To be honest I have no real idea what is going
to happen. You should already know that I am the paranoid one :-)
Now I know I have made a mistake by moving to Bulgaria with army. I regret
it but I cannot cancel it. I don't know how you react to that. Of course
you'll give me nice words but are they real. I hope they are. I am
confused...
About Sevastopol:
How is it possible to me to get there? At the moment I don't see it.
Still, I think I am going to keep my troops bordering Sevastopol 'cause if
you do something else than Ion S Tun then I am going to be, if not
eliminated, at least a minor power on board. I don't want that.
BTW, judge replies to me with strange 2-20 minutes delay. I have used to
get a reply in 30 seconds at max. Maybe it is because I use my old student
account. Do you get instant replys from NZMB?
Raine
From - Wed Dec 05 17:18:42 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Nice to be online at the same time :-)
> You and R against Austria is all I really need right now.
I see.
> > I guess you don't want Italian fleets to
> > Atlantic to help you :-)
>
> No, I don't think that will be necessary. :-)
I would have moved to Atlantic if you had asked me to :-)
> > Mao-Eng
> > Par-Bur
> > Pie-Mar
> > Wes-Mao
>
> I'm willing to make the first move by withdrawing so that you can "consider"
> your options, but I am not willing to start the war against Germany at
> this time. Is the former sufficient for you?
It certainly is.
> > Not much but still, how about Wes-Spa(sc) combined with Pie-Mar?
>
> I will withdraw from Wes and Pie. That is the "first move" that I am
> willing to make. Will *you* then be willing to make the second move
> next season?
I _promise_ to dislodge Austria from Ionian when I have the chance to do
it without of fear to lose Tunis to you. So, after I see your retreat that
guarantees a safe takeover of Ionian, I'll take Ionian Sea.
Rod to tell you the truth I am afraid of your nice words :-) I cannot
believe in them at all. I hope you don't mind that I am strict and tell
you how I feel. The good thing is that it doesn't effect to my moves.
No matter if you retreat or attack me I'll just defend. I want to tell you
how I feel honestly 'cause _if_ you are serious and start to work with me
then it is good that you know how I feel. I want to tell my feeling to my
allies. I might use stupid strict way please forgive me, especially when I
am in hurry like near the deadline I have no way to spend time to make a
'nice and polite' messages. Afterall this is not my native language.
Raine
From - Wed Dec 05 17:18:44 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France and Russia in 'gutsy':
> Raine asked me to withdraw from Pie. I believe their goal is Position 3
at:
>
> http://devel.diplom.org/Online/StalematesAtoY/southern-min.htm
I agree that is a likely goal of theirs. And I agree that tus - pie, ven s
tus - pie is the likely move for Raine. That means Tyrolia can be taken if
I support you with both mun and boh.
Or, Rod could convoy pie to tus. That might mix things up a bit, but I'd
have to think about it a bit more.
Or, Rod could order par - gas setting up for a fall convoy into Tuscany.
Assuming tus does not work in the spring, he might try it in the fall. Next
spring, Venice would be vulnerable (assuming I can help Rod keep Tyrolia).
Just thinking...
- Steve
From - Wed Dec 05 17:18:45 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> > If Russia and I act together, then Germany will have few resources to use
> > against you.
>
> Yes!! I agree completely! So when will it happen?
Good question. Is this something that you would like to see happen
enough to talk to Russia about it? Or, are you just willing to
opportunistically attack Germany if the opportunity should happen to
present itself?
Austria
From - Wed Dec 05 17:18:46 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> No no, I don't want to protect Smyrna. The reason for Bla-Con would be
> 1) no chance to get to Sev even if we both want it
> 2) I'd like to change your fleet in Ion to army in Vie.
> Then we would be both stronger. Also I should not be worried every time if
> I will get your support or not :-)
I suppose you can destroy my fleet. I doubt I'll have the opportunity to
rebuild it as an army any time soon, but having your fleet in Ion
instead of mind would be fine with me.
> I am concerned about my future. I have been away from discussions for over
> a week. Then suddenly France replies to my mail. Should I believe his nice
> words? Maybe there is a FA plan to sweep Italy out 'cause stalemate has
> been there for long enough? To be honest I have no real idea what is going
> to happen. You should already know that I am the paranoid one :-)
Everyone has been pretty much silent while you were away.
> Now I know I have made a mistake by moving to Bulgaria with army. I regret
> it but I cannot cancel it. I don't know how you react to that. Of course
> you'll give me nice words but are they real. I hope they are. I am
> confused...
If you are concerned about it, it is easily corrected. You could even
move Bul-Con, Bla-Bul, and either Arm-Bla or Arm H and Arm-Bla when the
army gets around to Armenia.
> About Sevastopol:
> How is it possible to me to get there? At the moment I don't see it.
Not right now. But, perhaps an opportunity will present itself.
> Still, I think I am going to keep my troops bordering Sevastopol 'cause if
> you do something else than Ion S Tun then I am going to be, if not
> eliminated, at least a minor power on board. I don't want that.
Don't worry about that. I need your support as much as you need mine.
It is not a good idea for us to fight while we are surrounded by so much
pressure from FGR. We could be crushed between them quite easily.
> BTW, judge replies to me with strange 2-20 minutes delay. I have used to
> get a reply in 30 seconds at max. Maybe it is because I use my old student
> account. Do you get instant replys from NZMB?
I have not noticed any delays.
Austria
From - Wed Dec 05 17:18:48 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany
and Russia in 'gutsy':
> That means Tyrolia can be taken if
> I support you with both mun and boh.
I still think Boh S Gal-Vie is better. If I don't get Tyl then you get Vie, which
is even better. :-)
I'll think about your other suggestions. For now, let's assume Pie-Tyl.
BTW, I am about to go offline til later tonight.
Rod
From - Wed Dec 05 17:18:49 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> > Is the former sufficient for you?
>
> It certainly is.
Excellent! That's what I'll do.
> I _promise_ to dislodge Austria from Ionian when I have the chance to do
> it without of fear to lose Tunis to you.
It seems promises don't mean much in this game, but I am glad to hear this regardless. :-)
> Rod to tell you the truth I am afraid of your nice words
I understand.
> I want to tell you
> how I feel honestly 'cause _if_ you are serious and start to work with me
> then it is good that you know how I feel.
I agree. I look forward to our future cooperation.
Rod
From - Wed Dec 05 17:18:50 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> Good question. Is this something that you would like to see happen
> enough to talk to Russia about it?
He and I have already discussed it. We're all willing to attack Germany, but no one
wants to make the first move. If he or I get some growth elsewhere, it will strengthen
us enough that we can confidently move against Germany. Otherwise, just words won't cut
it.
Rod
From - Wed Dec 05 17:18:51 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> I could see possibly destroying Gal, but Boh has retreats into
> Mun or Sil itself (which would move to Ber presumably).
>
> I'd like to see a more definate plan, where I can be assured
> of Germany loosing a supply center other than Berlin before
> I lost one other than Norway. That's expecting a lot though,
> I realize.
You need to get help from France to be assured of another immediate gain
against Germany. It is do-able, but we would need his help.
Now, what I have in mind is something like this. War-Sil, Bud-Gal, Ukr S
Bud-Gal, Mos-War. This destroyes the Gal army. If Germany moves
Mun-Tyr, Boh S Mun-Tyr, this means you will take Ber uncontested in the Fall.
You should also move Nwy-Nth. Germany can take Norway if he wants, but
he will probably wait until the Fall, so Stp would be safe. With your
being in Nth, you can do incalculable damage to Germany. You might even
be able to save Norway or get aother supply center. Look at this. If
you move Nwy-Nth, Germany can either choose to dislodge you, in which
case you can retreat to Bel or Hol, whichever one he doesn't cover, or he
can support himself to Nwy. You could move Nth-Nwy in the Fall, and if
he dislodged you, Nwy would bounce, and you could retreat to Bel or Hol,
so you would save Nwy and take Bel or Hol. That would be the best case.
But, now look how Germany is positioned if you take Berlin. He has no
armies in place. We can quickly move against Munich, and he won't have a
chance to build enough armies to protect himself. Plus, France is not
going to sit idle. If we attack Germany, he is certainly going to move
to take Bel or Mun. You two can split these centers.
What's in it for me? Well, with the pressure off me from you and
Germany, I am free to attack Italy.
> I think I'll pretty much play to hold this season and
> see what happens with Raine, he's a bit of a wild card
> at the moment, his taking Bul with an army against
> your wishes is odd, I can't see how he can attack you
> without losing the support of Ion but he may be too
> stupid to realize that.
Italy didn't exacly take Bul against my wishes. He told me that he was
going to move there and then left the country for a conference. The
moves processed before he read my objections. It could be that he has
some plans for it a few turns down the road, but for now he will support
me, because my support of him is essential with my F Ion.
Austria
From - Wed Dec 05 17:18:52 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> He and I have already discussed it. We're all willing to attack Germany, but
no one wants to make the first move. If he or I get some growth elsewhere, it
will strengthen us enough that we can confidently move against Germany. Otherwise,
just words won't cut it.
I see. If only there were some concession from either of you, I'd be
willing to act against Italy. But it still does not seem to be in my
interests to do so since he is the only person who wants to cooperate
with me in any way.
Austria
From - Wed Dec 05 17:18:53 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Actually, now that you mentioned it, I am observing the same response
delay from NZMB.
Austria
From - Wed Dec 05 20:50:15 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Once you have decided what to do with Bla/Bul, let me know. If you are
going to hold them, I might ask you to support Ser-Rum instead of Rum
holding so that I can try a dynamic defense against G/R. (You could
support Ser-Rum with Bul and Bul h with Bla if you were worried about me).
If you are moving, though, I will just support myself, and I think it will
be okay.
I don't have a strong preference either way.
Looking at the board, I think I should have built A Vie instead of A Tri.
Then I could have forced Germany to move Boh-Tyr instead of Mun-Tyr. Oh
well.
Austria
From - Wed Dec 05 20:50:16 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> > > Is the former sufficient for you?
> >
> > It certainly is.
>
> Excellent! That's what I'll do.
So to make it clear. You'll move Pie-Mar and Wes-Spa(sc). How about
Mao-Eng, Naf (?), Lyo (?) ???
> > I _promise_ to dislodge Austria from Ionian when I have the chance to do
> > it without of fear to lose Tunis to you.
>
> It seems promises don't mean much in this game, but I am glad to hear this
> regardless. :-)
Can you remember that I have promised something to you and then didn't do
what I promised?
> > Rod to tell you the truth I am afraid of your nice words
>
> I understand.
Good :-)
> I agree. I look forward to our future cooperation.
Me too. Meanwhile I am afraid of you :-|
Raine
From - Wed Dec 05 20:50:17 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> I suppose you can destroy my fleet. I doubt I'll have the opportunity to
> rebuild it as an army any time soon, but having your fleet in Ion
> instead of mind would be fine with me.
The fact is that I cannot destroy it untill France retreats from Med. In
the future I'd like to make the change. I don't know what you are planning
to do but I guess you should have one open home center. I might be willing
to support Tyrolia hold if you want.
> Everyone has been pretty much silent while you were away.
That is nice to hear.
> If you are concerned about it, it is easily corrected. You could even
> move Bul-Con, Bla-Bul, and either Arm-Bla or Arm H and Arm-Bla when the
> army gets around to Armenia.
No don't be offended but these are the nice words. If you want to attack
me the best I can do is to support Bul hold. Whatever I do I'll support
with one unit Rum hold.
At the moment my moves will be Arm-Sev, Bul s Rum, Bla S Bul
Do you want me to move away from Bulgaria? Or can you trust my goodwill?
> Don't worry about that. I need your support as much as you need mine.
> It is not a good idea for us to fight while we are surrounded by so much
> pressure from FGR. We could be crushed between them quite easily.
This is how I wanted to situation to be. Like I said I am paranoid.
(when I was in highschool I read somewhere that if you can admit that you
are paranoid you are not :-) I hope that I won't be eliminated and that I
can tell you in EOG how much I was afraid of your stab and it never came
:-)
> I have not noticed any delays.
I used my hotmail address to check it and it really seems to be my student
account that is slow. My postings go to judge with no delay but everything
that is send to me comes a bit late. So I think you'll get my messages
immediately but your replies take some time to reach me.
Raine
From - Wed Dec 05 20:50:20 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> Actually, now that you mentioned it, I am observing the same response
> delay from NZMB.
Strange, I don't have delays when I use my hotmail account.
BTW, France and I have talked discussed now (more in 2 hours than in last
month!). France keeps telling me that he'll retreat a unit or two. Then he
wants me to attack you. What does he tell to you?
Raine
From - Wed Dec 05 20:50:23 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> Once you have decided what to do with Bla/Bul, let me know. If you are
> going to hold them, I might ask you to support Ser-Rum instead of Rum
> holding so that I can try a dynamic defense against G/R. (You could
> support Ser-Rum with Bul and Bul h with Bla if you were worried about me).
> If you are moving, though, I will just support myself, and I think it will
> be okay.
Ok, I'll order Bul S Ser-Rum. Also I'll move Arm-Sev so that you know that
any support from Sev will be cut. I'll make the moves now, so if you hear
nothing concerning the moves these are my moves.
> I don't have a strong preference either way.
I have a preference to work with you :-) I am sorry about the hassle I
have caused with my paranoia talks. Previously I was too busy to write
much and now that I have the time I start to screw our relation with my
stupid talks. Please, forgive me.
> Looking at the board, I think I should have built A Vie instead of A Tri.
> Then I could have forced Germany to move Boh-Tyr instead of Mun-Tyr. Oh
> well.
So you think Germany is heading to Tyrolia, for sure. What do you think
about the reliability of French talks to retreat from FI border?
BTW, I assume that FG have tried to talk AI to have a war due to my army
in Bul, is that true? Germany tried to talk me to attack you but he
stopped when he realized that I am not interested unless he attacks France
first.
Raine
From - Wed Dec 05 20:50:24 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> BTW, France and I have talked discussed now (more in 2 hours than in last
> month!). France keeps telling me that he'll retreat a unit or two. Then he
> wants me to attack you. What does he tell to you?
He is telling me that if I attack you or let him take Tunis, then he will
attack Germany.
Austria
From - Wed Dec 05 20:50:26 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Ok, I'll order Bul S Ser-Rum. Also I'll move Arm-Sev so that you know that
> any support from Sev will be cut. I'll make the moves now, so if you hear
> nothing concerning the moves these are my moves.
Okay.
> So you think Germany is heading to Tyrolia, for sure. What do you think
> about the reliability of French talks to retreat from FI border?
I think Germany will attack Tyrolia. What else can he do if he isn't
interested in attacking Russia? If he wanted to attack Russia, he would
have taken Warsaw and Norway last Fall. Now he has two more Russian
armies to deal with.
> BTW, I assume that FG have tried to talk AI to have a war due to my army
> in Bul, is that true? Germany tried to talk me to attack you but he
> stopped when he realized that I am not interested unless he attacks France
> first.
No, I have heard nothing from Germany at all. France hasn't mentioned
anything about your having an army in Bulgaria.
Austria
From - Wed Dec 05 20:50:27 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
I don't want to sound like a used-car salesman, but what would it take
from me to get you to attack Germany? Is there anything I can do, or do
you just want to wait and see if Italy will actually attack me this turn
when he has failed to attack me every time in the past when he told you
he would attack me?
Austria
From - Wed Dec 05 22:40:21 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
So, where do you think this game is really going?
Keith's trying to convince me that the game is deadlocked unless I stab you
(which he says I should do this year) or you stab me (which he says you will
do this year). I'm sure you see the theme there. :)
Keith's last letter was incredibly short: "What are you waiting for?" I
know he expected me to jump on Norway and Warsaw, but that really wouldn't
have gotten me much more than I have now. I'm in no hurry here. As long as
we can avoid the stalemate position you referred to, time is on our side.
I know you said Pie - Tyr might leave you in an awkward position, but if you
also took Tuscany, AI cannot guarantee any of the Minimal Southern Positions
this year. I know you don't want to leave MAO, but you could order lyo -
tus, wes - lyo, and mao - wes. That would bring an extra unit into the fray
and give Raine a real headache.
If you're willing to order mao - wes and par - gas, I'm willing to back
Holland into the Kiel. That would mean this is a make-or-break year for us
trustwise, but I'm up for it if you are.
If you're still on-line, I'd like to discuss this season's moves some more.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Thu Dec 06 16:16:58 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> So, where do you think this game is really going?
Looks like a five-way draw so far. :-( That's obviously not an
acceptable outcome, but I still think an F/G war is my least-desirable
option.
> Keith's trying to convince me that the game is deadlocked
It will be if they achieve their stalemate. It would then just be a
matter of who breaks first.
> I know you said Pie - Tyr might leave you in an awkward position, but if you
> also took Tuscany, AI cannot guarantee any of the Minimal Southern Positions
> this year.
I'm OK with Pie-Tyr in the hope (though it's a long shot) of catching
Austria with his pants down and breaking AI wide open. I have also
ordered Lyo-Tus, though I expect it to bounce.
> If you're willing to order mao - wes and par - gas, I'm willing to back
> Holland into the Kiel.
I will do Par-Gas, but I would rather not move MAO-Wes without strong
evidence that it's necessary for me to have four fleets in the Med. If
you'd like to do Hol-Kie regardless I would appreciate the gesture, but
it's your call. If it might make you paranoid while I'm in MAO then
just hold in Hol.
Rod
From - Thu Dec 06 16:17:09 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> So to make it clear. You'll move Pie-Mar and Wes-Spa(sc).
Yes.
> How about Mao-Eng
I said that I am willing to pull back in the Med but not to move against
Germany yet. I asked whether that is sufficient and you replied that it
is. MAO holds.
> Naf (?), Lyo (?) ???
I could move them to Wes and Pie if you like, but I assumed you would
prefer to see them hold.
Rod
From - Thu Dec 06 16:17:14 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> I see. If only there were some concession from either of you, I'd be
> willing to act against Italy.
I am not willing to attack Germany this turn. Is there some other
concession I could make?
The impression that I got from Adam is that he has exhausted his
concessions wants to see one from you first.
> But it still does not seem to be in my
> interests to do so since he is the only person who wants to cooperate
> with me in any way.
I understand. It seems we have similar dilemmas, but the respective
solutions are just not compatible.
Rod
From - Thu Dec 06 16:17:16 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
> What are you waiting for?
Yea, I know; I just couldn't pull the trigger.
I looked at the fall position and my first thought was to stab Adam. But,
what would that have gotten me? I figure you and Raine are pretty tight and
those centers are mine anyhow (Norway at least) whenever I want them.
As I see it, the next break in the alliance structure will come in
pie/tyr/ven or sev/rum. Those are the hotspots; it would have been silly
for me to commit last year while those areas are unresolved.
That said, I don't expect this game to end in a five-way or even a four-way
for that matter. Some sub-set of us will make it down to three, at least.
- Steve
From - Thu Dec 06 16:17:19 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi, Tyr won't need your support. I suggest supporting Tuscany. I am
supporting Tunis with F Ion and moving Ser-Rum with your support.
From - Thu Dec 06 16:17:22 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Thanks Rod, I appreciate the letter.
I'll support Pie into Tyrolia with Munich and attack Vienna with support. I
think that's our best bet.
I appreciate you movnig Par - Gas and I agree that mao - wes is a bit
premature. I'll hold Holland for now and keep my fleets idle. Hopefully
the game will break open pretty soon.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Thu Dec 06 16:17:26 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> I'll support Pie into Tyrolia with Munich and attack Vienna with support. I
> think that's our best bet.
I agree.
> I appreciate you movnig Par - Gas and I agree that mao - wes is a bit
> premature. I'll hold Holland for now and keep my fleets idle.
OK. That's a good compromise.
> Hopefully the game will break open pretty soon.
Indeed. Recent press from A/I indicates that they may not be as tight
as we assume, but I still strongly suspect that they're just yanking my
chain.
I think we're all set now, so I'm going offline for the evening.
Rod
From - Thu Dec 06 16:17:29 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: S1907M Thu Dec 06 2001 23:30:00 +1300
Movement results for Spring of 1907. (gutsy.026)
Austria: Army Serbia -> Rumania. (*bounce*)
Austria: Army Rumania -> Galicia. (*bounce*)
Austria: Fleet Ionian Sea SUPPORT Italian Fleet Tunis.
Austria: Army Tyrolia HOLD.
Austria: Army Budapest -> Galicia. (*bounce*)
Austria: Army Trieste SUPPORT Army Tyrolia.
France: Army Piedmont -> Tyrolia. (*bounce*)
France: Army Edinburgh HOLD.
France: Fleet North Africa -> Tunis. (*bounce*)
France: Army London HOLD.
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean HOLD.
France: Fleet Western Mediterranean SUPPORT Fleet North Africa -> Tunis.
France: Army Paris -> Gascony.
France: Fleet Gulf of Lyon -> Tuscany. (*bounce*)
Germany: Army Holland HOLD.
Germany: Army Munich SUPPORT French Army Piedmont -> Tyrolia.
Germany: Fleet Sweden HOLD.
Germany: Army Galicia -> Vienna.
Germany: Fleet Skagerrak HOLD.
Germany: Fleet Denmark HOLD.
Germany: Army Bohemia SUPPORT Army Galicia -> Vienna.
Italy: Army Bulgaria SUPPORT Austrian Army Serbia -> Rumania.
Italy: Army Venice -> Piedmont. (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Armenia -> Sevastopol. (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Black Sea -> Constantinople.
Italy: Fleet Tunis SUPPORT Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea. (*cut*)
Italy: Army Tuscany SUPPORT Army Venice -> Piedmont. (*cut*)
Italy: Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea SUPPORT Army Tuscany.
Italy: Fleet Naples SUPPORT Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea.
Russia: Fleet Norway HOLD.
Russia: Army Sevastopol SUPPORT Army Ukraine -> Rumania. (*cut*)
Russia: Army Ukraine -> Rumania. (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Moscow SUPPORT Army Sevastopol.
Russia: Army Warsaw SUPPORT Army Ukraine. (*void*)
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Movement for Fall of 1907.
The deadline for orders will be Tue Dec 11 2001 20:00:00 +1300.
