Spring 1904
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From - Wed Oct 17 18:29:16 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Sorry, your message about switching to NAO came too late for me to act on
it. Its debatable which would be better though, so I'm sure we can work
with what we've got. Let me know what your thoughts are for this turn.
Brent
From - Wed Oct 17 18:29:43 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
If you are ready to attack Russia, I am ready to help you. Let me
illustrate the choices you have.
1. You can attack Russia with my help. You get Bul, Con and Ank, at least.
2. You can attack me with Russia's help. You get Greece.
It looks like you have a good relationship with France now. However, he
has 3 fleets and Germany has 3 fleets. Either France and Germany are
going to fight soon, or else France will have to come after you. I think
you should be able to get 2 builds this year (or 1 if you agree to let me
have one as well), enough to defend yourself against France if he should
start looking in your direction (be careful of his move Bre-Mid and
Mid-Wes in the Fall--this is what I woudl do if I were France and going
to attack you. F Mar would have been too obvious, and he will probably
build it next time).
Destroying Russia's army in Albania is a priority, but he can't really do
anything with it other than cut support right now. We should concentrate
on taking Con and Bul this year.
It would be great if you could slip your army into Ankara. You don't
think Russia will move Con-Ank do you? How are your communications going
with Russia. Surely you are still keeping alive the possibility of
attacking me with him. Do you think you can fool him? Does he give any
indications of his moves?
My first thought about moves is this:
Austria: Tri-Alb, Ser S Aeg-Bul, Gre S Aeg-Bul
Italy: Ion S Tri-Alb, Aeg-Bul, Smy-Con
This destroys Russia's army in Albania with certainty and gets you into
Bulgaria with certainty.
How does this sound? You could also move Eas-Aeg. If Turkey moves
Syr-Smy with support from Con, you can just retreat Smy-Ank, which is
actually an even better place to be.
Your army in Venice can hold, or else move Ven-Pie if you want to have
some control over what France builds next year. If you moved Ven-Tri I
could expel you in the Fall, and you wouldn't get Bul or Con (but you
could of course take Greece). If you wanted, you could move Ion-Tun, but
this might be premature unless you had some indication that France was
coming your way. Actually you might talk to Germany about a joint
campaign against France. I think he would be interested. Germany is not
in quite as strong a position as he once was.
Austria
From - Wed Oct 17 18:29:45 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi, you are in an interesting situation. You decided to help both Russia
and France last turn. Which of them are you going to attack this turn?
I suggest trying to convince Italy to attack France this turn. He has A
Ven and F Ion that can be moved west now, and he should be able to get at
least one build this year. If Italy allies with me, Russia is going to
be quite damaged after this year, losing at least two supply centers in
the South. Plus, he must still contend with England in the North. (I
also suggest not aiding Russia again this year.) If you play it right,
you will be able to have Russia and France both turned away from you to
face other enemies, and you can pick at them from behind when the time is
right.
Italy must be wondering what to do now. His main objective for some time
has been to make sure that Turkey is dead. Now that this is almost a
reality, he may be looking for new pastures. It is to our mutual
advantage that he attacks France.
What do you think?
Austria
From - Wed Oct 17 18:29:55 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> Let me know what your thoughts are for this turn.
It depends on what I hear from Steve. I'll let you know.
Rod
From - Wed Oct 17 18:29:57 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
Looks like I can easily pick up Lvp then move into the Med. :-) What are your
plans for this year? I think you should move to take Edi/Nwy/Swe over the next
two years, while we transfer Lon from you to me in 1905. That gives me another
build next year to reinforce my push into the Med, and puts us even at 8 each.
You then move east. Does that sound good to you?
I guess the only issue is whether you should go for Edi or Scandinavia first.
I suppose it depends on your relationship with Russia. Either way, Hel-Nth,
Nth-Nwg would probably be a good move for you.
Would you like to bounce in Bur?
Rod
From - Thu Oct 18 21:45:11 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hello. Are you willing to consider withdrawing your attack from Austria
yet? Yes, you got two builds last turn, but it won't last if things go
as I suspect. If Italy does not attack me, I don't think you'll make any
further gains into Austria. Plus, Italy seems to have the advantage in
Turkey. I doubt he'll be content just to get Ankara.
Also, Germany helped both you and France last turn. But this cannot
last. France's new fleet will go against either Germany or Italy. I
suspect the latter. This must mean that Germany will attack you? What
do you think. Germany has to attack one of you--either Russia or
France. Perhaps Germany will attack France if Italy also attacks
France. But this would likely mean that Italy will not attack me.
It seems to me that either Italy won't attack me, or else Germany will
attack you. In either case, it is to your advantage to not attack me.
(Also, it seems that England is intent to cause you some trouble in the
North if he can.)
Austria
From - Thu Oct 18 21:45:17 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> I think that when the time comes, we should attack Germany together.
Exactly what I was thinking. I need to get Raine to help me
in Austria if I'm going to have that area secure enough to
do so very quickly so your F Bre build helped there - easier
to reassure him that you're going for Germany next not
him. Hopefully that will make him FINALLY see that Italy's
intrestes lie in Gre. However, I'm begining to think that
Raine is Keith's brother or something, there's some tie
there which stops him doing what's best for him, I'm too
dumb to figure out what it is though so my diplomacy is
getting almost nowhere.
> I will not build in Mar. I intend to leave Italy alone.
Thanks for that. It looks like we may have to start talking
more soon if we're going to coordinate a German attack. If
I can get StP back then I should be in a reasonable position
to start by taking Swe (which Germany will probably take this
year as per our deal) back and moving War into Sil again.
I think we could probably start next year if everything goes
according to plan but I also think things would move more
quickly if you started the attack and I jump in the back
when Germany turns to fight you. Does that sound like a
reasonable assessment? I have to ask since I'm not looking
at a map right now.
Adam.........
From - Thu Oct 18 21:45:13 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
My email seems to be playing up again, you might get
this twice...
> Good work! Especially in the northern front.
Thanks. I got lucky, especially in the north.
> I think it is fair. You are now at 8 centers and I have only 5. I don't
> know if I am balance of power type of player or something else but it
> really looks like a fair deal to give Con back to me.
Sure, it's yours. Just take Gre in the spring. I can help
you do that from Alb just before it probably gets popped
this spring by Austria.
> To my eyes Russia is in very good shape. What is best for Russia? Would
> you like to be even stronger? I think that is against balance of power
> -idea. I am bored also to talk of priorities. I think the moves show that
> you got the advantage and I did not. I would have if you would not taken
> Con from me.
You would have had a build, possibly two, if you'd done as
I suggested but I thought we weren't going to talk about
the past anymore.
> You are getting Stp back for sure.
Nope. England says he's going to defend it to his last unit
and to judge from his disbands he means it. I'm also going to
loose Swe to Germany as arranged. I could guarentee StP if I
sent A War north but I can't do that until Austria is under
control and he won't be under control until: You take Gre.
> So would you be willing to let me have Con?
Yeah, sure, like I said, take Gre this spring and it's yours
in the fall.
> That would be no dispand for you and a build for me.
1) If you take Gre you'll get at least two builds this year.
2) If I give you back Con, and Germany takes Swe, and I don't
get StP then I'll take at least one disband this year.
This is very probable unless you help me in Austria.
> We would be more balanced that way.
True, but I'd much prefer to get the balance up by having
you take Austrian supply centers than by having you take
mine. Like I said, you can have Con in the fall if you
take Greece in the spring. That's the deal.
Adam.........
From - Thu Oct 18 21:45:15 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Good work! Especially in the northern front.
Thank you. I got lucky. Especially in the northern front.
> I think it is fair. You are now at 8 centers and I have only 5. I don't
> know if I am balance of power type of player or something else but it
> really looks like a fair deal to give Con back to me.
Sure, just take Greece this spring and it's yours in the fall.
> To my eyes Russia is in very good shape. What is best for Russia? Would
> you like to be even stronger? I think that is against balance of power
> -idea. I am bored also to talk of priorities. I think the moves show that
> you got the advantage and I did not. I would have if you would not taken
> Con from me.
You also would have if you'd taken Tri in the spring as I
suggested and taken Greece in the fall as I suggested.
> You are getting Stp back for sure.
Am I? I guess if I used A War to help out I probably could
do but A War is busy in Austria - especially if I get no
help there yet again. England says he's going to use all
of his power to defend StP, even if that means Germany and
France take the rest. Apparently he didn't like the lies
I spun him last year. StP is possible, but not probable.
> So would you be willing to let me have Con?
Yeah, sure, it's yours as soon as you take Gre.
> That would be no dispand for you and a build for me.
> We would be more balanced that way.
I'm happy to take a disband if you attack Austria, that
would put us within one supply center of each other. All
you need to do is take Gre. Frances build in F Bre shows
that Germany is his next target, not you. You have all
the time in the world, and you get at least two builds
if you take Gre this spring.
Adam.............
From - Thu Oct 18 21:45:36 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Thanks for the letter.
> I think you should move to take Edi/Nwy/Swe over the next
> two years, while we transfer Lon from you to me in 1905.
> That gives me another build next year to reinforce my push into
> the Med, and puts us even at 8 each. You then move east.
That sounds excellent. That's a fair division of spoils and it gives us a
decent border; I want us to be in a position where with we both feel our
border centers are relatively safe.
Regarding Scandanavia and Russia, my relationship with Adam is pretty good,
but I did not expect him to pick up a second center last year. I'm trying
my best to keep a balance between AR so I'll at least take Sweden this year
(Adam promised it to me so I figure I might as well). Norway depends on
what I hear from Brent and Adam.
I'm also not sure about Edi. I figure Brent will use Ska against Norway so
I might be free to support London into York. If we could eliminate Brent's
home centers, there'd be no chance of an English fleet popping up on our
border.
That would allow me to move eastward with more confidence because I could
sweep the remaining ER fleets in front of me. Which in turn, would allow
you to move to the med with more confidence.
On the other hand, what's the danger of keeping an English army trapped in
York or Edi? Not much, I guess, but I tend to think you should eliminate
weaker powers like that when you have the chance. What do you think?
Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Thu Oct 18 21:45:39 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> I need to get Raine to help me in Austria
I agree. I'll send him a note and see what he says.
> I think we could probably start next year if everything goes
> according to plan
That's a good idea. It gives you a year to beat back Austria a little and gives
me time to take another center from England before we make the push.
> but I also think things would move more
> quickly if you started the attack and I jump in the back
> when Germany turns to fight you.
His defenses are already mostly in the west, and I don't want to make an obvious
move against him before you're ready to assist. Let's hope for the best this year
then make our move in 1905.
Rod
From - Thu Oct 18 21:45:44 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
Germany thinks that I'm going to turn against you after England is gone, but I don't
want to do that. I prefer the 'R' alliance, and I want to stab Germany in 1905.
However, such a campaign will not successful unless I have some assistance from Russia.
Adam has expressed a willingness to help me against Germany, but he is currently
embroiled in Austria. If he can make some progress there this year, then hopefully
he'll be able to help me in the north next year. Your assistance in Austria would be
helpful, but Adam seems to think that his negotiations with you have not been productive.
What do you think of this? Are you willing to turn against Austria so Russia can
help me against Germany? You could easily take Gre this year, and with Russian
assistance finish off Turkey. If you plan to have a fleet in Adr and armies in
Ven and Tyl next year, you'll have a very good position.
I think that a FIR alliance is the best thing for all three of us. You and Adam
have lots of spoils to divide in Austria, and with just a little help in the north
I can get good growth against Germany. I hope you agree.
Rod
From - Thu Oct 18 21:45:45 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> I'm trying my best to keep a balance between AR so I'll at least take Sweden this year
Sounds good. We don't want any easterner to get too powerful.
> I'm also not sure about Edi. I figure Brent will use Ska against Norway so
> I might be free to support London into York.
It would be ideal if you can get Edi this year. You might not be able to count on
support from Nth not being cut in the Fall, but it's a good gambit for Spring.
> That would allow me to move eastward with more confidence because I could
> sweep the remaining ER fleets in front of me. Which in turn, would allow
> you to move to the med with more confidence.
I think that's an excellent plan. We can enact a wide DMZ between us and fully
commit to our new theaters.
Rod
From - Thu Oct 18 21:45:46 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
We haven't spoken since the moves to I thought I'd write a quick note. Good
job keeping Con *and* Bulgaria. Two builds should help you out a bunch
against Keith.
I'd like to take Sweden this year if there's a good way we can get you into
St Pete. There are a couple of ways to do this, but none of them
guaranteed. You probably will have your hands full with AI cooperating, but
if you can spare Moscow in the north, I think we can get it done.
When you have the chance, let me know what you think
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Thu Oct 18 21:45:48 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> We haven't spoken since the moves to I thought I'd write a quick note.
Yeah, sorry, they're getting a bit stroppy about "playing games"
at work so I have to be covert about looking at the map here
now. I was going to write this evening.
> Good job keeping Con *and* Bulgaria.
Yeah, the trick's going to be keeping either of them. I'm on the
verge of collapse there if Raine doesn't come and rescue me,
but he's just talking about taking Con back. I've told him
No Way until he's in Greece and this time I'm going to stick
to it. If I have to fight him for a while then so be it.
> Two builds should help you out a bunch against Keith.
The army in Sev will be pretty important anyway, the
fleet Mos feels to far away to be of any great help in
that particular battle.
> I'd like to take Sweden this year if there's a good way
> we can get you into St Pete.
If you can get me into StP then I'd be happy for you to take
Swe. The problem is that Brent is pretty angry with me for
my shocking fibs last year and he's telling me he'll defend
StP even at the cost of his other two SC's. I doubted him
until I saw the disbands: F Ska stays? That's got to be
destined to cut any support Nwy can give so I can't support
myself into StP.
> There are a couple of ways to do this, but none of them
> guaranteed. You probably will have your hands full with AI
> cooperating, but if you can spare Moscow in the north, I
> think we can get it done.
I think I can spare Moscow, but from what I remember of the
map I doubt it will actually get StP for us. F Ska is the
problem unit, it can cut StP support any time it wants.
I guess it might go for Swe in which case we can eject
StP in the spring and then eject the fleet from Swe in the
fall but that's dangerous talk! What if he manages to stay
in Swe AND keep StP. Youch.
> When you have the chance, let me know what you think
Like I said, I'll have a good look at the map this evening
and write while you're probably still at work.
Adam...........
From - Thu Oct 18 21:45:52 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Good to hear from you again.
> You had no intention of attacking English Channel ever,
> nor probably of letting me have Sweden.
Once Adam backed away from Berlin, you're right about Sweden. But in F'02,
I was in a nasty position. If you had insisted on taking Sweden as
recompense for doing a "triple-based" convoy to Norway, I think I would have
had no choice but to accept.
For the first three turns, I truly was biding my time deciding on whether I
should work with you or with Rod. It wasn't until Adam and Keith came at me
in S'02 that I felt forced. It's not that their moves made me choose Rod
over you; it's just that their attack upped the tempo of the game. I knew
that one of EFG would soon be on the ropes. It just happens to be you,
that's all.
The funny thing about Adam's u-turn in Berlin was that he and I agreed at
the last minute, in a discussion I suspect was similar to the one he
recently had with you about Denmark. I was just lucky enough that he told
me the truth, but lied to you. I also understand that his agreement with
Keith regarding the AR S'02 assault was similarly arranged. Adam likes
these last minute negotiations and he's pretty good at them.
> Oh well, got any more amusing offers you'd like to make?
My offers were dead serious. :)
Actually, I don't have any at the moment and I have no reason to think you
would believe me if I did. If you have an idea you'd like to float, I'm
here. Objectively, it looks like you might take Norway and keep St Pete,
but that's a bit of a long-shot.
Write if you can. I'd still like to talk.
- Steve
From - Thu Oct 18 21:46:01 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
Sorry I've been slow getting back to you, but real life has been pretty busy
here too.
It looks like you and Keith have been cooperating very well or at least you
have been neutral with each other. Care to comment?
Regaring your GAI proposal, I think we are already seeing a sort of GAI in
work. The main advantage of GAI cooperation is that they leave each other
alone for the first several years.
Pretty soon, you and I at least, will have to decide which way to turn. It
looks like Keith is pretty well committed against Russia for a while. What
do you think your next goal will be?
Write when you can. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Thu Oct 18 21:46:02 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
> (I also suggest not aiding Russia again this year.)
Yea, sorry about that. I figured that it was in my best interest to
eliminate an English center and I didn't really expect Russia to keep Con
*and* take Bulgaria. I hope that didn't inconvenience you too much.
My first goal is still to eliminate England, but after that, I am open to
suggestions. No matter which way I turn, though, it would help both of us
if Italy headed west. The same (in reverse) is true of France. The more FI
fight at this point, the better off you and I both are.
What have you heard from Rod or Raine that makes you think this is possible?
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Thu Oct 18 21:46:04 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> > (I also suggest not aiding Russia again this year.)
>
> Yea, sorry about that. I figured that it was in my best interest to
> eliminate an English center and I didn't really expect Russia to keep Con
> *and* take Bulgaria. I hope that didn't inconvenience you too much.
No, not really. Of course I would rather not have had his extra army
that can move to Ukr, but I will deal with it. It will slow me down a
little (all this assumes that Italy does not attack me, which would be
disastrous at this point).
> My first goal is still to eliminate England, but after that, I am open to
> suggestions. No matter which way I turn, though, it would help both of us
> if Italy headed west. The same (in reverse) is true of France. The more FI
> fight at this point, the better off you and I both are.
I agree.
> What have you heard from Rod or Raine that makes you think this is possible?
Nothing. This is why we need to create an environment where one of them
feels it to be the most sensible thing to do to attack the other. If
Italy and France do not go to war, we are both in trouble. What do you
think France will do with all his fleets if he doesn't use them against
Italy? On the other side, Italy can attack Turkey for a while without
attacking me, but he will have extra units floating around that will
tempt him to stab me if Russia begins to look weak.
Austria
From - Thu Oct 18 21:46:05 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Well, we tried I guess. I wonder if we can keep you
alive longer than England? You're probably not surprised
to hear that Raine is STILL refusing to attack Austria.
I can't possibly imagine what he's waiting for now.
He can be guarenteed two supply centers this year if
he just takes Gre in the spring but will he? Nope. Idiot.
Strange choice of disband. I'd have expected you to
keep the unit on a supply center. The trouble now is
that if I don't take Ank myself then A Smy can go
there and if I do take Ank then Italy can get Con
reguardless. I can't even support you into Smy
since that'll let him retreat to Ank too.
Oh well.
Adam........
From - Thu Oct 18 21:46:06 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
Well, I've looked at the map as promised, and it's even
more bleak than I thought it was. Man, Raine is so dumb,
if I could count on his support he'd get at least two
builds this year but he's going to have to fight against
me if he keeps going like this and NEITHER of us will
make any gains.
A Mos is still basiacally useless against Austria this
year though, so we need a plan to take StP back which
uses A Mos, F Nwy, F Den and F Nth at a push if we can.
The only way I can see to guarentee StP is to use A War
as well as A Mos. Clearly I can't do that while Austria
is in Gal anyway so I don't think we can make any
progress up there.
I think I'm going to have to make a last ditch attempt
to get Raine on board and if that fails this time then
I'll have to back out of Austria and help him against
Italy instead. I don't want to do that but Keith keeps
offering and Raine keeps refusing. What else can I
do? I guess if you let him know that I was talking
about that it'll sound more believeable too.
Adam............
From - Thu Oct 18 21:46:08 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Hello.
Hi Keith.
> Are you willing to consider withdrawing your attack from Austria
> yet?
I'm thinking more seriously than I have done so far that it
might be a good idea, yes. I can't believe how stupid Raine
is, he's STILL refusing to take Greece. Have you kidnapped
his brother or something? Did you hit him with a mind ray?
I think I'm about to give up on him, if we can work out
a way to disentangle our forces and get yours pointed at
Italy while mine go north through Germany by next year.
We'd have to both suffer no disbands as well which means
if you take Bul back then I need to get Ank and keep Con.
> Yes, you got two builds last turn, but it won't last if things go
> as I suspect. If Italy does not attack me, I don't think you'll make any
> further gains into Austria.
This I agree with, and Raine has no Brain.
> Plus, Italy seems to have the advantage in
> Turkey. I doubt he'll be content just to get Ankara.
Eric would probably help me, but you're right. Not a lot
I can do. I was SO sure Raine would see the light last
year and take Tri and Gre. Oh well, he's left it too late
now I suppose.
> Also, Germany helped both you and France last turn. But this cannot
> last. France's new fleet will go against either Germany or Italy. I
> suspect the latter. This must mean that Germany will attack you?
Here I think you're wrong. I have been talking to Rod about
the exact timing of his attack on Germany, and if he were
going to go after Italy he'd have build F Mar, surely?
> What do you think. Germany has to attack one of you--either Russia or
> France. Perhaps Germany will attack France if Italy also attacks
> France. But this would likely mean that Italy will not attack me.
I think you'd have to let Raine's brother go before he'd
even consider it frankly. He has some kind of mental block
which says "Italy Fight Austria = Bad" which I'd agree with
during 1901/1902 but there is a limit to that stuff.
> It seems to me that either Italy won't attack me, or else Germany will
> attack you. In either case, it is to your advantage to not attack me.
> (Also, it seems that England is intent to cause you some trouble in the
> North if he can.)
Yeah, I'm afraid I used up my one lie per person per game on
him last year and he's a little miffed. He's shouting at me
that he'll defend StP until it's the last supply center he
owns. Ooops.
So is there a plan we can agree on? Clearly it would have to
be something which didn't require you to trust me a great deal
during the next year at least. I imagine we can get A Alb destroyed
and rebuilt in Mos or War ready to go north to get StP and
maybe Germany. Actually, I imagine you'll destroy Alb anyway.
I could support your F Gre into Aeg from Con which would
almost certainly destroy F Aeg, helpful to us both but
unfortunately it would leave the retreat open which I
doubt you'd trust me to leave alone.
I should have built a damn fleet shouldn't I.
I'm too tired to think deeeply about it right now but if either
of us sees a way to achieve the following goals this year then
I'd be prepared to agree to the deal:
1) Your forces end the year pointed at Italy. Ideally you'd actually
take an Italian supply center.
2) My forces end up out of Austria. I guess this is pretty easy,
we just destroy A Alb.
3) Neither of us suffers a supply center loss. Obviously I can't
expect this to include Swe/Nwy if things go wrong in the north.
Essentially I just mean that if you take Bul or Rum then I get
to keep Con and take Ank. If you take Bul AND Rum then I get
to keep Con and take Ank and Smy.
4) Gal finishes open, and then stays that way.
Do you think we can work something out? Is there a plan which
would even get us close to these objectives?
Adam.............
From - Thu Oct 18 21:46:10 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
> Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> Well, we tried I guess. I wonder if we can keep you
> alive longer than England?
I tend to doubt it. Raine isn't even replying to my letters now.
I was dead when Raine moved to Aeg and you built the 2nd
Fleet.
> Strange choice of disband. I'd have expected you to
> keep the unit on a supply center.
The Fleet does nothing except support you in Con, the Army
gives us a few options. They won't work, but we can play
this year.
> The trouble now is that if I don't take Ank myself then A Smy
> can go there and if I do take Ank then Italy can get Con
> regardless. I can't even support you into Smy since that'll let
> him retreat to Ank too.
I was thinking Syr S Con-Smy, Bul/EC-Con, Sev-Arm. I haven't
looked closely at what it does to you in Austria, but it does position
your Fleets to go into the Med, and we might get me back into Smy
in the Fall, somehow.
Eric.
From - Sat Oct 20 08:35:32 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> It would be ideal if you can get Edi this year. You might not be
> able to count on support from Nth not being cut in the Fall, but it's
> a good gambit for Spring.
Are you willing to consider something like:
Germany:
lon - yor
nth - edi
France:
wal s lon - yor
iri - lvp
That would eliminate the English army this spring. You could take London
with the Welsh unit in the fall and your whole navy would be free to move
against Raine. I'd move my army to Edi and use the North Sea against
Scan/St Pete this fall. We could DMZ the waters around the isle next year.
I'm content seeing you get two builds this year as long as I get at least
one, but I'm a little leery about the number of French fleets. Are you
willing to order either Eng or Bre into MAO this spring?
The only other thing I'd like to discuss is:
> We don't want any easterner to get too powerful.
What do you think will happen over there?
- Steve
From - Sat Oct 20 08:35:40 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Well, it's not nearly as bleak as you seem to think. Yea, Con and Bul are
at risk, but I'll do my best to keep you two centers up north. Plus, I
think Raine might be ready to turn. Write him if you can.
I'll be away this weekend but will be able to talk some more Sunday night.
Have a good weekend.
(Sorry this was so short).
- Steve
From - Sat Oct 20 08:36:07 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi, I'm encouraged by your response--I didn't expect to hear anything.
> I think I'm about to give up on him, if we can work out
> a way to disentangle our forces and get yours pointed at
> Italy while mine go north through Germany by next year.
> We'd have to both suffer no disbands as well which means
> if you take Bul back then I need to get Ank and keep Con.
Yes, I will be happy once I've gotten back the centers you've taken from
me (that means Bul at this point).
> Here I think you're wrong. I have been talking to Rod about
> the exact timing of his attack on Germany, and if he were
> going to go after Italy he'd have build F Mar, surely?
If I were France and wanted to attack Italy, I would NOT build F Mar.
That is too obvious, and Italy would immediately shift his units West.
If France moves Bre-Mid he can then move Mid-Wes with no opposition
unless Italy anticipates his move. Since France is going to get another
build, he can build F Mar next year when he already has F Wes in place.
Much more effective. At least, that's what I'd do if I were France
wanting to attack Italy. He might attack Germany instead, I don't know.
> I think you'd have to let Raine's brother go before he'd
> even consider it frankly. He has some kind of mental block
> which says "Italy Fight Austria = Bad" which I'd agree with
> during 1901/1902 but there is a limit to that stuff.
Italy's moves make sense. If he attacks me now, he can take Greece.
He's had no chance to take Trieste. If he attacked me, it would only
mean that you would be more likely to get my centers, and Italy would
then find himself facing a strong enemy rather than one who is being
attacked from the other side (my being attacked by you).
> Yeah, I'm afraid I used up my one lie per person per game on
> him last year and he's a little miffed. He's shouting at me
> that he'll defend StP until it's the last supply center he
> owns. Ooops.
There is little else England can do.
> So is there a plan we can agree on? Clearly it would have to
> be something which didn't require you to trust me a great deal
> during the next year at least. I imagine we can get A Alb destroyed
> and rebuilt in Mos or War ready to go north to get StP and
> maybe Germany. Actually, I imagine you'll destroy Alb anyway.
Yes, getting rid of your army in Albania is high on my priority list.
> I could support your F Gre into Aeg from Con which would
> almost certainly destroy F Aeg, helpful to us both but
> unfortunately it would leave the retreat open which I
> doubt you'd trust me to leave alone.
At this point, I need to see some favorable actions from you before I am
willing to trust you. I am sure you understand. Your not putting a unit
into both Ukr and Rum would go a long way towards signaling your
sincerity. If this were to occur I think we could arrange it such that
Italy made no gains, or could not sustain any gains he might make in the
Spring. We would need to make a plan about how to best divide the supply
centers so that there was a stable boarder between us. Your putting a
fleet in Rumania would signal that you did not intend to use it for
offensive purposes. Likewise, I could station my fleet in Bulgaria.
What do you think? Are you in the frame of mind yet where you are
willing to make some concessions for peace?
Austria
From - Sat Oct 20 21:48:57 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hello, are you there? What do you think of my proposal from a few days ago?
Russia is trying to get me to attack you. What did you say to him?
Austria
From - Sat Oct 20 21:48:59 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
It seems that I have a new mantra :-) It goes like this:'I have been too
busy to write to you, please forgive me'.
> Sorry I've been slow getting back to you, but real life has been pretty busy
> here too.
I do understand you. No hard feelings. I am busy too and am afraid my game
will suffer from RL hurries.
> It looks like you and Keith have been cooperating very well or at least you
> have been neutral with each other. Care to comment?
Sure. I haven't been able to make an alliance due to little amount of
discussion. So, my policy has been to keep neutral with all of you
(except poor Eric, I need to go somewhere). Adam seems to dislike my
policy. He would have liked to see my units in Austrian soil. That's why
he took Con from me :-( What comes to alliance, I rely on you. Practically
we don't have tobe afraid of stabbing each other. Also I like you style of
writing (I am not flattering(sp?) you, it is important to me that I think
I understand my ally).
> Regaring your GAI proposal, I think we are already seeing a sort of GAI in
> work. The main advantage of GAI cooperation is that they leave each other
> alone for the first several years.
When Adam started to talk like world leader I sent that press to AG. Maybe
it is too early for 3way discussion while both east and west are
unresolved.
> Pretty soon, you and I at least, will have to decide which way to turn. It
> looks like Keith is pretty well committed against Russia for a while. What
> do you think your next goal will be?
It looks to my eyes tha west is resolving faster than east. Do you agree?
That makes me afraid of France. There is FG alliance at the moment and if
you keep it going after killing England France has nowhere else to go than
agains me. So my next target (if I am ever able to take next one) will be
France. I am not going to attack Austria or Russia if FG is solid and west
is resolved.
One thing I want to tell you and what should be in your interests is that
France and Russia are coming along very well. Why do I say so? Because
France is echoing the needs of Russia to me. Russia asks something and if
I disagree then France tries to convince me of the same thing...
You are on the top of my ally list so I want to give you the info I can.
I'd like to hear your plans after the elimination of England. Would you
tell me how you feel?
OT question (answer if you have time :-)
Have you ever been in sauna? Do you know sauna? I just came from sauna. It
is a wonderful place. Makes your muscles feel good and for busy people it
is the place to go after a hard days work. We Finns are enthuastic users
of sauna. We think that original sauna comes from Finland. Swedes have
their bastu but that is some 20 degrees colder place and nothing compared
to sauna :-) In Turkey there is also some kind of turkish sauna but that
is even colder place than swedish bastu.
I hope you have the time to answer at least the diplomatic questions.
Raine
From - Sat Oct 20 21:49:05 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I am happy to see that there are still
honest people out there. I was happy to see your build. Not in Mar like
you said.
> Germany thinks that I'm going to turn against you after England is gone,
> but I don't want to do that. I prefer the 'R' alliance, and I want to
> stab Germany in 1905. However, such a campaign will not successful
> unless I have some assistance from Russia.
Germany hasn't told me about that. I am also worried of the possibility of
FG alliance after E is gone. I will look your moves with care. For example
your move to Mao would make me feel a bit unsecure. I do hope that you can
work your way north without moving to Mao.
> Adam has expressed a willingness to help me against Germany, but he is
> currently embroiled in Austria. If he can make some progress there this
> year, then hopefully he'll be able to help me in the north next
> year. Your assistance in Austria would be helpful, but Adam seems to think
> that his negotiations with you have not been productive.
I can tell you why the negotiations with Adam are not productive. Take a
look at the Russian moves lately. Where did he get his build in
south? I have forgiven him. I have been so busy lately that I have not got
the time to make any quality negotiations with people. So I have tried to
be neutral between AR. Adam took it as offense that I did not attack
Austria when he wanted me to. So he took Con :-( Then he has the guts to
say that RI negotiations are not productive... In principle I like the 3
way alliance between FIR. In practice we have a bit of frition between RI.
Nothing we couldn't solve but something we should be aware of.
> What do you think of this? Are you willing to turn against Austria so
>Russia can help me against Germany? You could easily take Gre this year,
> and with Russian assistance finish off Turkey. If you plan to have a
> fleet in Adr and armies in Ven and Tyl next year, you'll have a very good
> position.
I have said to Adam my feelings of attacking Austria. He know how I feel
and he know my priorities. Adam slowed my attack against Austria by
taking Con from me.
> I think that a FIR alliance is the best thing for all three of us. You and
> Adam have lots of spoils to divide in Austria, and with just a little
> help in the north I can get good growth against Germany. I hope you
> agree.
I certainly agree this. I think I have no choise. I _do_ want to keep you
out of Med. I hope you are not demanding an immediate attack against
Austria.
Raine
From - Sat Oct 20 21:49:07 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> Germany:
> lon - yor
> nth - edi
>
> France:
> wal s lon - yor
> iri - lvp
>
> That would eliminate the English army this spring.
Wal S Lon-Yor sounds good, but I'm not sure that it's really necessary
to pop the army in the Spring. The problem is that at least one of
Iri-Lvp and Nth-Edi will succeed, leaving that fleet in an awkward
position.
> I'd move my army to Edi and use the North Sea against Scan/St Pete this fall.
What do you anticipate the position of the EGR fleets will be in the
Fall? England's F Ska might make things a little difficult for you.
Maybe Mos S Nwy-StP, Den-Ska would be good for the Spring, but I don't
know exactly what Adam is planning.
> I'm content seeing you get two builds this year as long as I get at least one
I think that's equitable, because after Lvp/Lon I'll be facing a long
drought as I position myself against Italy, whereas you have good
prospects in Scandinavia next year. However, I don't think it's a sure
thing that you'll take a Scandinavian center *this* year, and if you
trade Edi for Lon then you might just stay even.
> Are you willing to order either Eng or Bre into MAO this spring?
I'd rather not, because Raine seems to get rather paranoid about that
sort of thing. OTOH, there's not much he can do about it, and I don't
really have any other reasonable move for F Bre, so I guess I'll move
Bre-MAO and just try to convince Raine it's friendly.
> > We don't want any easterner to get too powerful.
>
> What do you think will happen over there?
Russia is embroiled in Austria. He wants Italian help, but Raine is not
willing to commit to anything. At least, that's what Adam tells me.
Rod
From - Sat Oct 20 21:49:19 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Master in
'gutsy':
End-Of-Year Summary
S02
I had slipped into Lon in F01, but it looked like England had a good
chance of reclaiming it in 1902. So I decided to forsake Lon and secure
Lvp instead. I ordered Lon-Wal, Bre-Eng instead of the more "obvious"
Lon S Bre-Eng, but Brent outguessed me and bounced both moves. I had
hoped that he would try Yor-Lon, giving me easy access to Lvp in the
Fall.
Also in S02, Steve and I agreed to bounce in Bur, but instead he got a
little paranoid and supported himself into Bur. That could've been very
nasty for me, but AR advanced to Sil/Boh/Tyl on the same move, so I knew
that Steve had no choice but to beg for my forgiveness. ;-)
In addition, Raine moved into Pie this turn. He had informed me of his
intentions in advance, and I had attempted to persuade him against it.
He didn't seem convinced, so I moved Par-Gas so that I could cover Mar
in the Fall without risking Spa-Mar succeeding and not capturing Spa. I
was inclined to believe Raine's claim that his move to Pie was not
hostile until I saw the turn results and had to assume the existence of
an IAR alliance.
F02
Eric suggested an EFG alliance to counter the IAR threat (and to save
Turkey's butt), and the rest of us agreed that it was necessary. Eric's
suggestion for the Fall move was:
German F Den S English F Nwy-Swe (against Russian F Swe)
Yor-Nth-Nwy
Spa-Mar, Gas-Mar
France builds F Mar, England builds A Edi.
Eric's reasoning was that an English army in Nwy is more threatening to
Russia than an English fleet in StP (nc). Also, he wanted England to
let me retain Lon so I could build F Mar from my gain in Spa.
However, Brent really wanted to reclaim Lon, so he argued for Yor-Lon,
Nth-Nwy, Nwy-StP. (Russia had no unit to cover StP, so it was free for
the taking.) Eric strenuously objected, but we eventually agreed to
follow Brent's plan.
Steve and Eric both advised me privately to consider holding in Lon, but
I didn't want to cause strife while we were facing a possible IAR. My
correspondence with I/A/R led me to believe that it was not really a
cohesive three-way alliance, but I didn't want to take any chances. I
also didn't want to annoy Brent and see a retributive build of F Lvp.
(He was certain to get a build from StP even if I held in Lon.)
Raine agreed to placate me by moving away from Pie. I decided to do Spa
H, Gas-Mar rather than Spa-Mar, Gas-Mar. If Raine really were hostile
he could try Pie S Spa-Mar, and I didn't want to risk not getting Spa
when I was losing Lon. I was hopeful that he would instead withdraw, so
I didn't worry about trying to leave Mar open for a build (and I didn't
anticipate getting a build anyway).
Russia turned against Austria this season. That was very good for
Germany, and Steve and I immediately wished that I had stayed in Lon and
he had forced his way into Nth. Regardless, Steve got a build, and we
agreed that it would be F Kie and that we would move against England in
1903.
Eric asked me to state in my EoY what I would've done if Brent had
followed his suggestion of taking Swe, convoying to Nwy, and building A
Edi. I really don't know. My first guess is that I would've eventually
stabbed him, but who can say?
From - Sat Oct 20 21:49:45 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Sorry for the silence. This season we really have to coordinate our moves.
> If you are ready to attack Russia, I am ready to help you. Let me
> illustrate the choices you have.
I am ready to take a step against Russia. I would appreciate your help.
> 1. You can attack Russia with my help. You get Bul, Con and Ank, at least.
> 2. You can attack me with Russia's help. You get Greece.
I won't attack you. I think we can get an agreement of Greece falling to
me in peace later. If I take Greece with fleet in the future it gives us
the possibility to have a peaceful border. Maybe added with fleet in
Bul(sc) too.
> It looks like you have a good relationship with France now. However, he
> has 3 fleets and Germany has 3 fleets. Either France and Germany are
> going to fight soon, or else France will have to come after you. I think
> you should be able to get 2 builds this year (or 1 if you agree to let me
> have one as well), enough to defend yourself against France if he should
> start looking in your direction (be careful of his move Bre-Mid and
> Mid-Wes in the Fall--this is what I woudl do if I were France and going
> to attack you. F Mar would have been too obvious, and he will probably
> build it next time).
I would call my relationship with France more like neutral. He was really
annoyed when I moved to Piedmont. I am ready to make it on build for each
now. I am not greed. When France turns against me then I am hoping to get
some flexibility from you.
> Destroying Russia's army in Albania is a priority, but he can't really do
> anything with it other than cut support right now. We should concentrate
> on taking Con and Bul this year.
I am ready to do like you say. Russian army in albania is more a problem
to you than to me.
> It would be great if you could slip your army into Ankara. You don't
> think Russia will move Con-Ank do you? How are your communications going
> with Russia. Surely you are still keeping alive the possibility of
> attacking me with him. Do you think you can fool him? Does he give any
> indications of his moves?
I am not sure if I have the guts to move to Ankara. I am afraid of
Sev-Arm and RT cooperation. Russia is annoyed 'cause I have not attacked
you while I had the chance. You are right that I talk to Russia and keep
him under the feeling that I am attacking you later. The problem with my
relations with Russia is that he don't buy my story 'cause I have had such
a good opportunity to attack you and I did not attack. That's why he took
Con from me. Only thing he has mentioned of his moves is that he says that
he will use War in south rather than north. This is zero information. He
won't trust me enough to tell me his intension untill I have committed to
attack you. Maybe this is why he tries to get you to attack me. I haven't
been enthuastic of attacking you like he had hoped.
BTW, FR relations seems to be very good. France is already talking of his
expansion direction after the elimination of England. He says that if I
don't attack Austria he ain't willing to attack Germany. France and Russia
seem to coordinate their messages to me and I do not like it.
> My first thought about moves is this:
>
> Austria: Tri-Alb, Ser S Aeg-Bul, Gre S Aeg-Bul
> Italy: Ion S Tri-Alb, Aeg-Bul, Smy-Con
This sounds good to me. I will look at the map and try to figure something
better. If I am silent it means that I will follow this plan.
> This destroys Russia's army in Albania with certainty and gets you into
> Bulgaria with certainty.
I like the way it destroys that Russian army and it is not usable in
fall. I also like the possibility to empty Ven and Tri like this. I am
considering to move Ven-Apu/Tus. Still, I hope you don't mind if I just
hold.
> How does this sound? You could also move Eas-Aeg. If Turkey moves
> Syr-Smy with support from Con, you can just retreat Smy-Ank, which is
> actually an even better place to be.
It is good place to retreat to if there ain't Sev-Arm.
> Your army in Venice can hold, or else move Ven-Pie if you want to have
> some control over what France builds next year. If you moved Ven-Tri I
> could expel you in the Fall, and you wouldn't get Bul or Con (but you
I don't move Ven-Tri. That is a promise. I am thinking if Ven hold is too
hostile to you in case of Tri-Alb! That should give you the idea how I
feel. Absolutely no move to Tri from Venice.
> could of course take Greece). If you wanted, you could move Ion-Tun, but
> this might be premature unless you had some indication that France was
> coming your way. Actually you might talk to Germany about a joint
> campaign against France. I think he would be interested. Germany is not
> in quite as strong a position as he once was.
Germany is my 2nd most wanted ally (you are #1). I was a bit disappointed
to see no messages between 3 of us after I me on opening. Nevertheless
Germany is talking friendly words when he talks of you.
What is Russia suggesting to you? I mean how should you attack me
according to Russia?
Raine
From - Sat Oct 20 21:49:55 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> My email seems to be playing up again, you might get
> this twice...
FYI I got it twice. No problem.
> > You are getting Stp back for sure.
>
> Nope. England says he's going to defend it to his last unit
> and to judge from his disbands he means it. I'm also going to
> loose Swe to Germany as arranged. I could guarentee StP if I
> sent A War north but I can't do that until Austria is under
> control and he won't be under control until: You take Gre.
You are right. Brent is playing desperately now. When people are about to
die they usually want to die near the major stalemate line.
> 1) If you take Gre you'll get at least two builds this year.
> 2) If I give you back Con, and Germany takes Swe, and I don't
> get StP then I'll take at least one disband this year.
> This is very probable unless you help me in Austria.
Do you really think Germany is after Sweden? I do not think so.
> True, but I'd much prefer to get the balance up by having
> you take Austrian supply centers than by having you take
> mine.
So far you have taken one supply from me. I have taken zero from you.
> Like I said, you can have Con in the fall if you
> take Greece in the spring. That's the deal.
Is it possible that we can arrange it in a way that I'll dislodge one of
your southern fleets in fall and you dispand it? Then if you are able to
build one you could build it as army (or northern fleet if you like). In
the long run your two southern fleets are going to be problematic for us.
Raine
From - Sat Oct 20 21:49:59 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
I just want to let you know that I would like to see FG fighting. I
have no idea if I am able to make that fight but anyway. I think your
dispands were good ones. They provocate FG to argue about how to share
your supplies and that might help you to survive. I do hope so. Is there
anything I can do to help you? I mean diplomatically. I am too far away to
attack France at the moment but I can always say the things you want me to
say. I am aware of the fact that France can attack me after your possible
elimination. Just let me know if you want me to say something specific to
someone.
Raine
From - Sat Oct 20 21:50:06 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
Wow, you are supporting Adam (the main motor of anti-Turkey division) to
hold in Con. You truly can surprise me.
May I offer you a convoy to Tunis? If you can convince me that you would
really order Syr-Eas-Ion-Tun I can consider the possibility to convoy you
there. After your dispand I don't see how I could help you otherwise.
Raine
From - Sat Oct 20 21:50:09 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I won't attack you. I think we can get an agreement of Greece falling to
> me in peace later. If I take Greece with fleet in the future it gives us
> the possibility to have a peaceful border. Maybe added with fleet in
> Bul(sc) too.
Yes, that's fine with me. I'd like to keep Greece until I take Rumania.
After that, you can have it. Although as a long term plan, I hope we can
stay nearly the same in the supply center count. If you get all of
Turkey and I get Bul and Rum, then you'd be at 7 with me at 6. In this
case, once I broke into Sev or War, you could pick up Gre, then perhaps
even Bul depending on how many units you need to fight France, or whatever.
> I am not sure if I have the guts to move to Ankara. I am afraid of
> Sev-Arm and RT cooperation.
I see. That is a danger. It would be bad to move Smy-Ank and have
Turkey move Syr-Smy. I think it is better to move Smy-Con to cut any
possible support. This way you are assued of getting Bul and Con.
>
> BTW, FR relations seems to be very good. France is already talking of his
> expansion direction after the elimination of England. He says that if I
> don't attack Austria he ain't willing to attack Germany.
France and Germany pretty much have to fight once England is gone. They
simply have too many fleets to do something else. If Germany didn't have
so many fleets, France would be content to move all his fleets against
you. But with Germany's fleets, France would have to leave England
vacant in order to move against you, and Germany would do best to attack
France at this point.
> France and Russia seem to coordinate their messages to me and I do not
> like it.
I would guess that France is controlling Russia here. They both have the
same objective. If you attack me, then they both can crush us both
between them. Sounds like a fate neither of us wants.
> > My first thought about moves is this:
> >
> > Austria: Tri-Alb, Ser S Aeg-Bul, Gre S Aeg-Bul
> > Italy: Ion S Tri-Alb, Aeg-Bul, Smy-Con
>
> This sounds good to me. I will look at the map and try to figure something
> better. If I am silent it means that I will follow this plan.
Okay, I will make the orders.
> I like the way it destroys that Russian army and it is not usable in
> fall. I also like the possibility to empty Ven and Tri like this. I am
> considering to move Ven-Apu/Tus. Still, I hope you don't mind if I just
> hold.
Well I do feel a little drafty leaving Tri and Vie open like that. If
you held Ven would you mind my moving Bud-Tri? This doesn't really put
my armies were I would like them, though.
> What is Russia suggesting to you? I mean how should you attack me
> according to Russia?
He has not presented a specific plan, other than wanting me to move
Gre-Aeg. He says he would like to see my forces directed against you by
the Fall. I of course have told him that I will consider it if he makes
the right moves this turn. And, as you might suspect, I actually have no
intentions of considering attacking you, but if it causes Russia to make
a move in my favor, then I will tell him what he wants to hear.
Austria
From - Sat Oct 20 22:16:36 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
> May I offer you a convoy to Tunis? If you can convince me that you would
> really order Syr-Eas-Ion-Tun I can consider the possibility to convoy you
> there. After your dispand I don't see how I could help you otherwise.
You would have to convince me that you would order the Fleets to Convoy.
I'm willing to consider it, if it lets me survive, but you'd have to
convince me
that it wasn't just a ploy to make eliminating me easier.
Eric.
From - Sun Oct 21 08:22:37 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
> You would have to convince me that you would order the Fleets to Convoy.
> I'm willing to consider it, if it lets me survive, but you'd have to
> convince me that it wasn't just a ploy to make eliminating me easier.
Ok, let's forget the convoy. I cannot see that we will be able convince
each other. I think you could have survived longer in Tunis than in Syria.
I might be wrong though. Would you like to move supportedly to Armenia
then?
Raine
From - Sun Oct 21 08:22:59 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> I'd like to keep Greece until I take Rumania.
That's fine with me. I can concentrate on taking Bul/con first.
> After that, you can have it. Although as a long term plan, I hope we can
> stay nearly the same in the supply center count. If you get all of
> Turkey and I get Bul and Rum, then you'd be at 7 with me at 6. In this
> case, once I broke into Sev or War, you could pick up Gre, then perhaps
> even Bul depending on how many units you need to fight France, or whatever.
Yes, it is a good idea to keep our SC count almost equal. You can have all
the Russian centers and Rumania. We can use Bul and Gre as a balancing
centers. Depending on the sitation we would change them between us.
> I would guess that France is controlling Russia here. They both have the
> same objective. If you attack me, then they both can crush us both
> between them. Sounds like a fate neither of us wants.
I agree.
> > This sounds good to me. I will look at the map and try to figure something
> > better. If I am silent it means that I will follow this plan.
>
> Okay, I will make the orders.
I have been inactive lately in gutsy that is why I put the 'if I am silent
it means ...' -line in there. I am also thinking of
******
PLAN A
******
Austria:
tri-alb
ser-bul(sc)
gre-bull
Italy:
Aeg s smy-con
smy-con
ion s tri-alb
eas-syr
******
PLAN B
******
Austria:
tri-alb
ser s tri-alb
gre-bul(sc)
Italy:
smy-con
aeg s smy-con
eas-syr
ion-eas!
I think these might be better for us. What do you think?
> Well I do feel a little drafty leaving Tri and Vie open like that. If
> you held Ven would you mind my moving Bud-Tri? This doesn't really put
> my armies were I would like them, though.
I don't mind of Bud-Tri. It is a bad move for allied AI but if you are not
sure of my goodwill you should do it. I will feel a bit sad if you
still won't trust me but I think I can live with that.
> He has not presented a specific plan, other than wanting me to move
> Gre-Aeg. He says he would like to see my forces directed against you by
> the Fall. I of course have told him that I will consider it if he makes
> the right moves this turn. And, as you might suspect, I actually have no
> intentions of considering attacking you, but if it causes Russia to make
> a move in my favor, then I will tell him what he wants to hear.
I am doing the same. I try to convince him that I am against you. For me
it is harder to do 'cause I have had such an opportunities to attack you
and I hadn't attacked you.
Let me know how you feel about my proposal.
Raine
From - Sun Oct 21 19:40:02 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
> > You would have to convince me that you would order the Fleets to
> > Convoy. I'm willing to consider it, if it lets me survive, but you'd
have
> > to convince me that it wasn't just a ploy to make eliminating me easier.
>
> Ok, let's forget the convoy. I cannot see that we will be able convince
> each other. I think you could have survived longer in Tunis than in Syria.
> I might be wrong though.
No, you're probably right, and I didn't rule out ordering Syr-Tun by
Convoy; I, in fact, began negotiating with you about it. I don't know if
it's
a difference between Finnish and American culture, or what, but you do
not seem to understand the negotiation style that I, and most Diplomacy
players I know, use. You stated your position, and in return, I stated
mine. We both expressed an interest in convoying Syr-Tun. Now, we
should keep talking, and compromise on our initial positions, and try to
reach an agreement. Are you interested in seriously discussing this idea,
or was it just an attempt to eliminate me more quickly?
Eric.
From - Sun Oct 21 19:40:11 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
Sorry, but I think its too late for you to be able to do anything
diplomatically. You've hung me out to dry, and I think the same will happen
to you next. Its interesting that after the EIT alliance fell apart, the
three countries that have suffered the most are the three of us. I think we
really missed our chance to take control of this game early on and be in a
commanding position. Oh well, best of luck trying to survive the
Mediterannean onslaught.
Brent
From - Sun Oct 21 19:40:15 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
Well, here we are. The Scandanavian centers are all I've got left, so
I've got to defend them with everything I can. I already know that Sweden
will most likely belong to Germany, so there isn't much I can do there, but
I think I can hold St. Petersburg for a while and maybe regain Norway. You
made it clear last turn that you considered me a lost cause, but I think you
underestimate the effect that a small power such as myself can have. In
order to eliminate me, you're going to have to tie up quite a few units that
would otherwise be able to help you on other fronts. You'll also be unable
to defend yourself from the German attack that is sure to come soon enough.
So, before you go writing me off again, think about the consequences. I
would be more than happy to support you into Sweden in exchange for allowing
me back into Norway. That would allow you to not be so open to a German
attack, and allow me to remain in play, which means Germany can't turn
completely against you. There are a lot of rumblings about you already
being the biggest power and having some more centers easily within your
grasp. As a small power, I have no qualms about supporting big powers like
yourself, and I would bet you would find that help quite useful.
Brent
From - Sun Oct 21 19:40:17 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Any word on marching orders for the Russian units? My initial plan was
Ska - Nwy supported by StP and Yor - Edi, but I'm certianly flexible if you
need something else.
Brent
From - Sun Oct 21 19:40:20 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Master in
'gutsy':
End-Of-Year Summary
F1902B
Eric suggested that we continue EFG, and that the builds be A Kie, A
Edi, and A Lvp. Brent wanted to build F Lvp, which was exactly what I
did NOT want to see. I suggested he build A Lvp, F Edi for moving
against Russia and Germany. Steve also suggested A Lvp, F Edi (in the
discussions re EFG) as a good compromise for protecting England in Nth
while allowing a convoy to Nwy. (Meanwhile, Steve was planning to build
a fleet instead of an army in order to move against England.)
Brent had originally planned to build two fleets, but he changed his
mind to A Edi, F Lvp. His intent was to convoy Edi-Nwy, save his
existing A Lon for a future convoy to the mainland (against Germany),
and use F Lvp as a defensive deterrent so that I'd go after Germany
instead of attacking England. I argued that a campaign against Germany
required a build of F Edi so that he could advance Nth-Hel, Edi-Nth.
Brent stuck with A Edi, F Lvp.
S03
Brent suggested that I order Eng S Nth, Pic S Edi-Bel, Spa-Gas, Mar-Bur
to kick off the supposed EF campaign against Germany. I replied that we
needed to strive to take both Bel and Hol from Germany that year in
order to make any real progress, and that the only feasible way of doing
it was for England to take both centers. However, I didn't want him to
grow to 7 centers while I still had only 5, so we eventually agreed that
I would "borrow" Lvp from England so that we would both have 6. Brent
agreed, with the stipulation that he had to get Bel in the Spring and at
least have a reasonable chance of also taking Hol in the Fall.
Meanwhile, Steve and I agreed that we would transfer Bel to me so that I
could build another fleet to use against England. In exchange, I agreed
to help him into Lon.
It seemed to me that EF against G would be a long, hard battle, and I
liked the FG plan that gave me Bel, so I decided to go after England. I
moved MAO-Iri and Pic-Eng-Wal, both of which succeeded. Steve dislodged
Brent from Nth and advanced to Hel.
I think Brent would've had better chances if he had gone with his
original plan of building F Lvp and F Edi. A fleet in Edi would've made
a campaign against Germany more feasible, and perhaps I would've decided
to follow the EF plan instead of turning on England. Or perhaps not,
but at least choosing between E and G would've been a much more
difficult decision for me.
F03
I convoyed and supported the Germany army in Bel to Lon, and I moved
Bur-Bel. Steve supported Russian F Swe-Nwy. I got Bel, Germany got Lon
in exchange (putting us at 6 centers each), and Brent lost Lon and Nwy
and was down to 3. Brent disbanded F NAO and A Lvp in an attempt to
unbalance FG in my favor, and I built F Bre.
From - Sun Oct 21 19:40:21 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
Raine seems rather ambivalent about helping you against Austria. I have
sent him another message strongly urging that he attack Austria. I need
you to succeed there ASAP so you can assist me against Germany next
year.
As for the north, are you planning to cooperate with Germany this year?
That might be your best bet for reclaiming StP, then in 1905 we can both
turn against him.
Rod
From - Sun Oct 21 19:40:22 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> For example
> your move to Mao would make me feel a bit unsecure. I do hope that you can
> work your way north without moving to Mao.
Germany wants me to move Bre-MAO, and it might be the only reasonable
move for that unit. I don't want to alarm him by doing anything
aggressive against him in the Spring. I think that next year is the
best time for me to stab him.
On the other hand, I don't want to give you any reason to get paranoid
either. I understand that a move to MAO might make you uncomfortable,
and I want to avoid that. We've done a good job of mitigating each
other's concerns, and I expect that to continue.
I'll try to find some plan that I can suggest to Germany that keeps him
happy without requiring that I move to MAO. I'll let you know how that
goes.
> I have been so busy lately that I have not got
> the time to make any quality negotiations with people.
You must correct that. Make the negotiations and arrive at a good plan.
> So I have tried to be neutral between AR.
I don't think that's a good idea. Not doing anything is not the correct
solution to failing to conduct quality negotiations. The answer is to
negotiate.
I believe that the best plan for you is to attack Austria with Russia's
cooperation. You need growth in order to establish yourself and feel
secure, and there is not much left for you in Turkey. Your only
remaining options are to attack either Austria or me. I hope that you
will choose the former.
> In practice we have a bit of frition between RI.
> Nothing we couldn't solve but something we should be aware of.
Yes, we should be aware of these difficulties and strive to correct
them. It means that more negotiation and cooperation are necessary.
> I certainly agree this. I think I have no choise. I _do_ want to keep you
> out of Med. I hope you are not demanding an immediate attack against
> Austria.
I don't make demands - only suggestions. I want you to not have to
worry about me possibly trying to get into the Med. I think the best
way to allay your concerns is for you to experience growth. If you get
some builds then you will be secure. That's what I want - I want you to
grow. And I want to grow too. And I want Russia to grow, because he
can help me grow. If we all work together to succeed then it will
happen. With Russia's help, you can have success against Austria and I
can have success against Germany, and then there is no reason for either
of us to feel paranoid about the Med.
Rod
From - Sun Oct 21 19:40:24 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> Any word on marching orders for the Russian units?
I'm still discussing things with Germany. I'm not entirely sure yet
what his plans will be and how we should respond. I will definitely get
back to you as soon as I can.
> My initial plan was Ska - Nwy supported by StP and Yor - Edi
Those sound like good "default" moves in the event that I don't hear
anything interesting from Germany.
Rod
From - Sun Oct 21 21:36:33 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> The problem is that at least one of Iri-Lvp and Nth-Edi will
> succeed, leaving that fleet in an awkward position.
Yes, I agree. That is a big drawback and not necessarily worth it.
> What do you anticipate the position of the EGR fleets will be
> in the Fall?
That's very tricky to know. There's no way Adam will order nwy - nwg which
means I could ensure myself nwg, nth, and den in the fall. I could also
ensure myself nth, den, bal. Both look good to me. The first covers both
Edi and Nwy, but the second gives me a better defensive position in case
Adam does war - pru.
I know you suggested I take Nwg. Is that still what you'd like to see?
And, why?
> Maybe Mos S Nwy-StP, Den-Ska would be good for the Spring,
> but I don't know exactly what Adam is planning.
If I were Adam that is exactly what I would order. The reverse doesn't make
any sense to me. All my press to ER (and A for that matter) has been based
on that assumption.
> I think that's equitable, because after Lvp/Lon I'll be facing a long
> drought as I position myself against Italy, whereas you have good
> prospects in Scandinavia next year.
I agree on both counts. That's one of the reasons I agreed to the convoy
last year. I know my best defensive position was to hold my armies, but I
wanted you to know that I'm intent on moving FG forward as quickly as
possible. That might mean a little more upfront risk on my part (read:
exposed army in London. LOL), but I think it's worth it.
> However, I don't think it's a sure thing that you'll take a Scandinavian
center *this*
> year, and if you trade Edi for Lon then you might just stay even.
I know. If you were me, how would you go about getting a build this year?
> ...so I guess I'll move Bre-MAO and just try to convince Raine it's
friendly.
Good to hear. From what Raine has said, I think he already expects it.
Write when you can Rod; I'm still working out my moves, but I'll let you
know what I decide. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 22 17:26:49 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> I know you suggested I take Nwg. Is that still what you'd like to see?
> And, why?
I think it's a good move, but whatever you decide is fine with me. If
Russia moves as expected then Den S Hel-Nth, Nth-Nwg is guaranteed, and
combined with Wal S Lon-Yor it gives you tons of options on Edi and Nwy
in the Fall.
> > However, I don't think it's a sure thing that you'll take a Scandinavian
> center *this*
> > year, and if you trade Edi for Lon then you might just stay even.
>
> I know. If you were me, how would you go about getting a build this year?
Hmmmm. Maybe Den S Nth-Ska, Hel-Nth (or Nth S Den-Ska, Hel-Den; or Nth
S Hel-Den, Den-Bal), Wal S Lon-Yor. Fall: Iri S Wal-Lvp, Nth S Yor-Edi
(or Yor S Hol-Nth-Edi), Bel-Eng-Lon, and a supported attack on Swe. Or
maybe Bel-Eng-Lon in the Spring, so Eng is free to move to MAO in the
Fall.
That's just a rough draft - I haven't thought it all through, so please
analyze and comment. If it works, I get two builds and you get one
(putting us at 8/7, and you easily grab Nwy next year). I would
probably build F Mar and A Par. I assume you're OK with A Par, given A
Mun and a DMZ in Bel/Hol/Ruh/Bur. Let me know if you have any concerns.
I think once upon a time I suggested that we bounce in Bur this season.
I don't recall if we've discussed that yet.
Rod
From - Mon Oct 22 17:26:52 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> ******
> PLAN A
> ******
> Austria:
> tri-alb
> ser-bul(sc)
> gre-bull
>
> Italy:
> Aeg s smy-con
> smy-con
> ion s tri-alb
> eas-syr
> ******
> PLAN B
> ******
> Austria:
> tri-alb
> ser s tri-alb
> gre-bul(sc)
>
> Italy:
> smy-con
> aeg s smy-con
> eas-syr
> ion-eas!
>
> I think these might be better for us. What do you think?
It's up to you. I think Aeg-Con is the stronger move, because if your
army is in Con rather than Smy, it can't move to Arm or support Con-Ank
(obviuosly a fleet in Smy can't support a move to Ank). Since I think
the Turkish centers will all go to you, though, it is up to you how to
proceed.
I will order Gre-Bul or Gre and Ser S Aeg-Bul, whichever you prefer.
Austria
From - Mon Oct 22 17:26:56 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
Thanks for writing. When you consider that GI is not attacking either
France or Austria, our level of communication is pretty high. As long as we
write once or twice a year, I'm happy. Even a short note keeps us in touch.
I really must get to bed soon so I'll keep this letter short. I have a
couple of points:
First, you are in an excellent position; your policy of neutrality with your
neighbors has paid off quite well. Adam does not like your approach only
because he is liable to lose three or four centers in the next two years.
Second, I would like to see an active AGI happen soon, but I think that
might be a couple of years away. As I see it, AGI won't happen until you
and Keith take Rum, Bul, Con, and Ank. This probably won't happen until
next year; once it does though, I look forward to discussing AGI v FR
tactics.
Third, Rod is one of the best players I've ever encountered. Keith is an
excellent tactical player (the best on the board I think), but Rod has both
the tactical and diplomatic skills needed to solo; plus he's playing
France(!).
I'm willing to slow Rod down in the north if you are willing to move a unit
into one of the FI border territories (tus, tyn, tun). Ideally, I'd like to
see you one space closer to French territory, but I'm willing to accept a
compromise.
Wirte when you can, I still owe you a letter about saunas. :)
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 22 17:26:59 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
If you have the chance during the day tomorrow, I'd like to hear what moves
you are considering. My primary focus is to eliminate Brent, but I don't
want to exclude your interests while doing so.
(blah, blah, blah....it's late) LOL
I'll support you in Norway if you think it's necessary, but I'd like to use
Nth somewhere else. I'd also like to get a build this year so I'm looking
at taking Sweden. I'd still like to see a GR 2-2 split in Scandanavia; you
can have nwy/stp as long as I get den/swe.
Write when you can. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:00 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Yes, I will be happy once I've gotten back the centers you've taken from
> me (that means Bul at this point).
As I said, I'm prepared to give up Bul so long as I can
claim Ank during the same year and Con remains in my
control.
> Italy's moves make sense. If he attacks me now, he can take Greece.
> He's had no chance to take Trieste. If he attacked me, it would only
> mean that you would be more likely to get my centers, and Italy would
> then find himself facing a strong enemy rather than one who is being
> attacked from the other side (my being attacked by you).
Ah, now this reasoning makes sense, if it were what Raine was
saying we'd at least have some basis for conversation. Instead
he just says "No, we attack Turkey first" and repeats it over
and over again. Now he's asking for Con first. I wonder if he
is actually thinking along these lines but unwilling to say
so for some reason. Oh well, I'm fed up with waiting for him
to join in now anyway.
> There is little else England can do.
Someone pointed out that small powers survive more often
near the stalemate lines too which could be part of his
reasoning.
> At this point, I need to see some favorable actions from you before I am
> willing to trust you. I am sure you understand.
I do indeed, but I'm sure you can also understand that it's
tricky for me to back off and leave a hole for you to jump
through in counter-attack. We must both be very careful.
> Your not putting a unit into both Ukr and Rum would go a long
> way towards signaling your sincerity.
Your saying that Ukr OR Rum would be okay? Damn, I wish I'd
build a fleet in Sev.
> If this were to occur
> I think we could arrange it such that Italy made no gains,
> or could not sustain any gains he might make in the
> Spring.
Con is my main worry, if I don't support it from Bul, at least
in the spring, then Italy will probably take it from me. Ugh,
whatever I try and do I suspect I'll be loosing at least one
center this year on top of Swe which I have already aranged
to lose before I took Nwy.
> We would need to make a plan about how to best divide the supply
> centers so that there was a stable boarder between us. Your putting a
> fleet in Rumania would signal that you did not intend to use it for
> offensive purposes. Likewise, I could station my fleet in Bulgaria.
This sounds reasonable. It's not going to be easy to do though,
I simply don't have a lot of fleets to do it with. I suppose
F Bul could move to Rum though that will make F Con very vunerable.
Would you be able to move to Bul in the spring and support me
back into Con from there in the fall? It would make it impossible
to dislodge my A Alb in the spring unfortunately. What about
taking Bul with Ser for now? If you did that I'd like to see
Gal empty again by the fall.
We don't have long to try and sort something out unforunately.
Hopefully we'll be able to exchange a few emails when you
get online today.
> What do you think? Are you in the frame of mind yet where you are
> willing to make some concessions for peace?
What I want now is to take Ank and keep Con and to see you
fighting Raine over Ven etc. as soon as possible. I am in
deep negotiations with France over what should happen in
Germany and I'm afraid that if I can't free myself well enough
in the south then France will attack Raine instead leaving
Germany to target me.
I'm very over-stretched indeed, it would be good to get a
peace-deal going with you and I'm prepared to give up Bul
to do so. We really need to talk.
Adam.............
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:02 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> Raine seems rather ambivalent about helping you against Austria.
I honestly don't think he's going to. Keith has at least given
me a reason why he might not want to - something Raine hasn't
been able to do for years. Keith thinks that Raine is rightly
frightened that if he attacked Austria then I would get most
of the gains leaving him faced with a massive Russia. Raine
himself hasn't said that but it makes a hell of a lot more
sense than anything Raine HAS actually saud.
> I have sent him another message strongly urging that he attack
> Austria. I need you to succeed there ASAP so you can assist me
> against Germany next year.
Thinking about this I'm fairly confident that the more you
ask Raine to attack Austria the more he'll be convinced that
you want him involved over there so that you can attack him
from behind when you're ready. Hard to see a way around that
problem.
> As for the north, are you planning to cooperate with Germany this year?
Yes, though we agreed last year that Germany would take Swe this
year and I'm faced with a probable loss in the south too. I can't
afford to use A War to force StP either. I'm in a tricky hole
and it's going to be hard to get out of it. I blame Raine for
this entirely.
If I could make Peace with Austria and leave him to fight Raine
for me, that could be handy, but it's a tricky thing to do I'd
imagine. Keith is more reasonable than Raine is so it might be
possible. Do you think that would be a good idea?
> That might be your best bet for reclaiming StP, then in 1905 we
> can both turn against him.
Yes, a year or so from now I'll have to either fight Germany
or have him fight me I'd imagine so I'd sooner get the first
punch in myself if it's possible. I'm over-stretched and
it seems people are noticing a lead I have only if you
ignore position and the inevitable loss I'll suffer this
year. I'm not very confident or optimistic right now.
Adam..........
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:03 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> I was thinking Syr S Con-Smy, Bul/EC-Con, Sev-Arm. I haven't
> looked closely at what it does to you in Austria, but it does position
> your Fleets to go into the Med, and we might get me back into Smy
> in the Fall, somehow.
Not a bad plan, all in all, I think it's probably worth giving it
a go. I doubt that the plan will actually get me into Smy but
it's a better plan than anything I can come up with. I have
to try and write more (at all) during the weekends, the
deadline is almost here already and I've hardly talked to
anybody. Youch.
Adam...........
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:05 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> If you have the chance during the day tomorrow, I'd like to hear what moves
> you are considering. My primary focus is to eliminate Brent, but I don't
> want to exclude your interests while doing so.
>From what Brent has been saying, his primary interest is to
hold on to StP and take Norway back if he can.
> I'll support you in Norway if you think it's necessary, but I'd like to use
> Nth somewhere else. I'd also like to get a build this year so I'm looking
> at taking Sweden. I'd still like to see a GR 2-2 split in Scandanavia; you
> can have nwy/stp as long as I get den/swe.
I'd prefer that you left Sweeden until I have control of StP
but I can't see any easy way to take control of StP at all
in the immediate future so I guess it's not something I can
press hard on.
StP's support will be cut by Mos so any attack
on Nwy would have to come from Ska S StP - Nwy. I can live with
that since it'd give me StP and we could support Nwy back in
during the fall so the support from Nth isn't needed this
spring, convoy into England all you like!
I'd be happy to see you and Brent bounce in Sweeden personally,
but I think it more likely Ska will cut Nwy support and you'll
take Swe unopposed. Either way, hopefully you'll take some
of Brent's SC's and leave him forced to disband enough
units to let me take StP more easily.
Adam..........
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:06 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
>Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> > I was thinking Syr S Con-Smy, Bul/EC-Con, Sev-Arm.
>Not a bad plan, I think it's worth giving it a go.
Ok, I'll order Syr S Con-Smy.
Eric.
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:07 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> You are right. Brent is playing desperately now. When people are about to
> die they usually want to die near the major stalemate line.
We're still talking, though relations are decidely strained. More
so than they are with Austria oddly. He's talking about a deal
which might keep Sweeden for me, but it's a long shot and
I'm not sure what he gets out of it so I'm distrustful.
> Do you really think Germany is after Sweden? I do not think so.
Last year we aranged for him to take it this year. I've asked
for a delay while I take StP but I can't force the issue
and I'd sooner have Germany's help and support than one
supply center anyway. I'm fairly confident Sweeden will go
to Germany, unless Brent bounces him there which would be
silly since Brent would then loose StP.
> So far you have taken one supply from me. I have taken zero from you.
This is true, but when we divided out the supply centers I
thought that you and Keith agreed Con would be Austrian. I
see myself as having taken Con from Austria, not you,
though I understand you see it differently.
My point was, however, that equalizing the size of our
countries is important and that the best way for us
to do that is to have you grow, not to have me shrink.
> Is it possible that we can arrange it in a way that I'll dislodge one of
> your southern fleets in fall and you dispand it? Then if you are able to
> build one you could build it as army (or northern fleet if you like). In
> the long run your two southern fleets are going to be problematic for us.
I think that both those fleets will be needed, at least until
the pressure from Austria is off. I'd sooner have an army than
a fleet there but until I have navel support in Austria from
you I need the two fleets. We can arrange the disband after
you have taken an Austrian supply center? No?
Adam...........
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:09 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
> Well, here we are. The Scandanavian centers are all I've got left, so
> I've got to defend them with everything I can. I already know that Sweden
> will most likely belong to Germany, so there isn't much I can do there, but
> I think I can hold St. Petersburg for a while and maybe regain Norway.
I think you can hold StP without too much trouble, for a year or
so at least. Reagaining Norway would be more tricky.
> You made it clear last turn that you considered me a lost cause, but I
> think you underestimate the effect that a small power such as myself can
> have. In order to eliminate me, you're going to have to tie up quite a few
> units that would otherwise be able to help you on other fronts. You'll also
> be unable to defend yourself from the German attack that is sure to come
> soon enough.
Defending myself from Germany and taking StP are all part of the
same deal of course, if I can't even take StP then I definately
can't defend against Germany and in order to defend against Germany
I'd really need StP.
You're right that I can't spare the units to do that right away
though.
> So, before you go writing me off again, think about the consequences. I
> would be more than happy to support you into Sweden in exchange for allowing
> me back into Norway. That would allow you to not be so open to a German
> attack, and allow me to remain in play, which means Germany can't turn
> completely against you.
I don't see how that would work. Ska S Nwy - Swe; Stp - Nwy? I'm
not sure how you'd gain there since I'd obviously order Mos - StP.
I guess you may prefer to own Norway to StP. Is that what you're
suggesting?
> There are a lot of rumblings about you already
> being the biggest power and having some more centers easily within your
> grasp. As a small power, I have no qualms about supporting big powers like
> yourself, and I would bet you would find that help quite useful.
The rumblings you speak of are the musings of fools. I've got
the largest SC count this year, but I'm expecting loses, not
gains and I'd have thought that was easy enough for anyone to
see. WHere are these easy supply centers? Sweeden is supposed
to be going to Germany, as agreed last year. Con will be taken
by Raine without too much trouble at all and in order to make
gains in Austria I really need Raine to attack too. He's
still refusing to do so. I may be able to take Ank - that's
possible, but only if Con goes. The only way I'm going to get
a build at all (and this will be lucky) is because A Alb
will surely be destroyed this spring so I can rebuild it if
I can stay even in SC counts.
If I'm really getting an Early Leader problem with this situation
then I'd completely overestimated the ability of the players
at the board.
Adam.........
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:10 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
You did not comment my proposal for Syr-Arm with support. You are not
interested?
> No, you're probably right, and I didn't rule out ordering Syr-Tun by
> Convoy; I, in fact, began negotiating with you about it. I don't know if
> it's
> a difference between Finnish and American culture, or what, but you do
> not seem to understand the negotiation style that I, and most Diplomacy
> players I know, use. You stated your position, and in return, I stated
> mine. We both expressed an interest in convoying Syr-Tun. Now, we
> should keep talking, and compromise on our initial positions, and try to
> reach an agreement. Are you interested in seriously discussing this idea,
> or was it just an attempt to eliminate me more quickly?
I wouldn't say it is a difference between cultures. I would rather say
that it is up to personalities. I was waiting for some other type of
reaction from you. That is why I told you that let's forget it and tried
to ask if you were interested in moving to Armenia with my support.
I was serious of the convoy. It looks like you have decided to work with
Adam and I cost Con. So I thought that you would be no threat in Tunis.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:12 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Don't give up yet. You still have three units.
> Sorry, but I think its too late for you to be able to do anything
> diplomatically. You've hung me out to dry, and I think the same will happen
> to you next.
I feel bad about this. I clearly kept your hopes too high in the early
days. I hope you can survive against FG and I can help you later.
> Its interesting that after the EIT alliance fell apart, the
> three countries that have suffered the most are the three of us. I think we
> really missed our chance to take control of this game early on and be in a
> commanding position. Oh well, best of luck trying to survive the
> Mediterannean onslaught.
I must disagree here. I don't think I am doing that bad. I know I could
have done better though.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:14 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
[Defending myself from Germany and taking StP are all part of the
same deal of course, if I can't even take StP then I definately
can't defend against Germany and in order to defend against Germany
I'd really need StP.]
Not entirely true. You can defend yourself against Germany, assuming that
I'm helping you do it. And that had been my plan until you took away
Norway. Remember that I'm trying to stop Germany any way I can, but in
order for me to do that I've got to hold some centers in the North. It
seems silly for us to have the same goals and yet to be fighting each other.
[I don't see how that would work. Ska S Nwy - Swe; Stp - Nwy? I'm
not sure how you'd gain there since I'd obviously order Mos - StP.
I guess you may prefer to own Norway to StP. Is that what you're
suggesting?]
No. I was planning on waiting for the Fall to recapture Norway.
Obviously this requires a bit of trust on my part, but at this point I don't
have a lot of options. If Germany takes Sweden in the Spring, he will most
likely take Norway in the Fall, and then start working on a convoy through
the Baltic since you will have no fleets to defend against it. Is it really
worth risking all that just to hold on to Norway?
[The rumblings you speak of are the musings of fools. If I'm really getting
an Early Leader problem with this situation then I'd completely
overestimated the ability of the players at the board.]
That is certainly not the case, but I think you may have underestimated
their abilities to turn a situation like this to their advantage. You may
not be in the strongest position, but you are in a strong one, and people
can use that to "legitimize" turning against you. If doing so will enable
them to pick up a few quick centers, don't think that it won't happen.
There's a lot of good manipulators on this board, and you can bet that if
they aren't in the lead they're figuring out a way to get there.
Brent
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:17 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Thanks for your note.
> Germany wants me to move Bre-MAO, and it might be the only reasonable
> move for that unit. I don't want to alarm him by doing anything
> aggressive against him in the Spring. I think that next year is the
> best time for me to stab him.
Bre-Pic is easy to explain: it supports Belgium. I don't think Bre-Pic is
aggressive. One can say that Bre-Mao ain't aggressive but Bre-Mao is hard
to explain otherwise than moving against Italy.
> On the other hand, I don't want to give you any reason to get paranoid
> either. I understand that a move to MAO might make you uncomfortable,
> and I want to avoid that. We've done a good job of mitigating each
> other's concerns, and I expect that to continue.
I agree. I am not going to move west for a long time. I simply cannot do
it. So if there is going to be FI conflict you are making the first step.
So far we have done a good job. One can say that you have done excellent
job. There is nothing I can do if you move to Mao. I can only say that
co-operation between us would be slowed down. I hope you find some other
solution than moving to Mao.
> I'll try to find some plan that I can suggest to Germany that keeps him
> happy without requiring that I move to MAO. I'll let you know how that
> goes.
Thank you.
> You must correct that. Make the negotiations and arrive at a good plan.
Sometimes it is easy to understand things in theory but not work it out in
practice.
> I believe that the best plan for you is to attack Austria with Russia's
> cooperation. You need growth in order to establish yourself and feel
> secure, and there is not much left for you in Turkey. Your only
> remaining options are to attack either Austria or me. I hope that you
> will choose the former.
There is no way I could attack you. I am too far east and you would be
warned immediately if I move west. So you should not worry of me.
> Yes, we should be aware of these difficulties and strive to correct
> them. It means that more negotiation and cooperation are necessary.
It is a two way street.
> I don't make demands - only suggestions. I want you to not have to
> worry about me possibly trying to get into the Med.
I can't help it but if you move to Mao I am worried. I will not use all my
forces in east then. So if you want to slow my 'ballistic' expansion you
can simply move to Mao. :-)
> I think the best
> way to allay your concerns is for you to experience growth. If you get
> some builds then you will be secure. That's what I want - I want you to
> grow. And I want to grow too. And I want Russia to grow, because he
> can help me grow. If we all work together to succeed then it will
> happen. With Russia's help, you can have success against Austria and I
> can have success against Germany, and then there is no reason for either
> of us to feel paranoid about the Med.
I hope we can move in a way that paranoia is not needed. What comes to RI
co-operation it is not going to be easy. Adam is co-operating with me if I
first move like he wants. I am still in the middle of negotiations with
Adam. So I hope I can make some advance in there.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:20 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
We are getting closer to deadline. Maybe we should try to coordinate our
moves?
> This is true, but when we divided out the supply centers I
> thought that you and Keith agreed Con would be Austrian. I
> see myself as having taken Con from Austria, not you,
> though I understand you see it differently.
I do have a different point of view indeed.
> My point was, however, that equalizing the size of our
> countries is important and that the best way for us
> to do that is to have you grow, not to have me shrink.
This is agreeable.
> I think that both those fleets will be needed, at least until
> the pressure from Austria is off. I'd sooner have an army than
> a fleet there but until I have navel support in Austria from
> you I need the two fleets. We can arrange the disband after
> you have taken an Austrian supply center? No?
I cannot follow the logic here. Your fleets are completely useless against
Austria. You can only hold but not cut _any_ Austrian supports with your
fleets. Can you clarify your above statement?
At the moment I have a feeling that if I want you to do something I
need to take Austrian supply center first. I am in a difficult situation,
you know. You seem to work with Eric and you ask me to attack Keith (the
only person that hasn't moved against me in the east) in order to get
something out of you. I hate the situation when I am forced to do
something. I like it when I could choose from several choises.
About the forthcoming moves:
Would you be interested in moving Sev-Arm? I could then destroy Eric's
last unit. Then it would be easier for us to work in former Turkey when
there is only us. Then we could arrange the supplies so that you would get
Ankara and I would get Con. How do feel of this?
Raine
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:21 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
Could you tell me of the northern situation, please? I have a feeling what
is going to happen there but I would appreciate if you could tell me your
prediction.
> First, you are in an excellent position; your policy of neutrality with your
> neighbors has paid off quite well. Adam does not like your approach only
> because he is liable to lose three or four centers in the next two years.
Are you there to take some? I'd rather like to see you moving against
France...
> I'm willing to slow Rod down in the north if you are willing to move a unit
> into one of the FI border territories (tus, tyn, tun). Ideally, I'd like to
> see you one space closer to French territory, but I'm willing to accept a
> compromise.
I cannot move there immediately. Please be patient.
> Wirte when you can, I still owe you a letter about saunas. :)
Just tell me if you have been in sauna so I know what to expect :-)
Raine
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:25 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Your diploming with Russia is getting somewhere. Russia told me that he
has more problems with England than with Austria :-) That is a good start.
Have you talked with Russia about Sev?
After staring at the map for a long time I have to agree with you. I am
willing to follow the original plan of yours. I would like to see you
moving supportedly to Rumania. It would ease the pressure on Bulgaria in
fall.
> I will order Gre-Bul or Gre and Ser S Aeg-Bul, whichever you prefer.
Please, support me to Bulgaria with Ser and Gre. I'll support your
Tri-Alb.
Summarum:
---------
Austria
Tri-Alb
Ser S Aeg-Bul(sc)
Gre S Aeg-Bul(sc)
I would like to see
Bud s Gal-Rum
Gal-Rum
or
Bud-Rum
Gal-Ukr (we have to assume that Russia will use Mos in north, right?)
Italy
Aeg-Bul(sc)
Smy-Con
Ion s Tri-Alb
You would probably like to see
Ven-Apu/Pie/Tus
Please, give me a note before the deadline.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:27 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I cannot follow the logic here. Your fleets are completely useless against
> Austria. You can only hold but not cut _any_ Austrian supports with your
> fleets. Can you clarify your above statement?
More explicitly, until you have taken an Austrian supply center
I don't know how much I can trust you and I'm reluctant to have
one of those fleets disbanded when I may well find myself with
an Italian fleet in Con pushing on Ank and eventually into
Sev. I need to know you're doing something other than planning
to take Turkey all for yourself which, as far as I can see,
is your only alternative to attacking Austria right away.
> At the moment I have a feeling that if I want you to do something I
> need to take Austrian supply center first.
It would definately help a great deal.
> I am in a difficult situation,
> you know. You seem to work with Eric
There was a time, for about six months, when working with Eric
was the best option for me. I still think you should have
gone into Austria at the same time I did. However, that's
the past and now there is basically no Eric to work with.
He's offered to support my F Con into Smy but (A) that
wouldn't work anyway since you can support from Eas quite
easily and (B) I'm not really interested in Smy, I want
us to take on Austria.
And next year there will be no Eric, even more than there
is no Eric right now.
> and you ask me to attack Keith (the
> only person that hasn't moved against me in the east) in order to get
> something out of you. I hate the situation when I am forced to do
> something. I like it when I could choose from several choises.
But whenever I've offered you choices in the past you choose
not to attack Austria and I'm LOSING the battle there. I need
Help. A Alb is going to be destroyed, Rum and Bul are under threat.
You still have the choice on whether to take Tri or Gre I guess,
though if I were you I'd have both already.
> About the forthcoming moves:
> Would you be interested in moving Sev-Arm?
Possibly.
> I could then destroy Eric's
> last unit. Then it would be easier for us to work in former Turkey when
> there is only us. Then we could arrange the supplies so that you would get
> Ankara and I would get Con. How do feel of this?
It doesn't look that hard to arange to me. Smy S Con - Ank gets
that achieved straight away. It's just that I'd like to see
some movement against Austria first.
Adam..........
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:28 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
>You did not comment my proposal for Syr-Arm with support. You are not
>interested?
Armenia would not be my first choice of destinations, no.
> > I didn't rule out ordering Syr-Tun by Convoy;
>
>I was waiting for some other type of reaction from you. That is why I told
>you that let's forget it
("That is why I told you, "let's forget it")
What sort of reaction were you looking for?
>I was serious of the convoy.
("I was serious about the convoy.")
>It looks like you have decided to work with Adam and I cost Con.
(Umm, "work with Adam and cost me Con.", perhaps?
"work with Adam and keep me from taking Con." would
probably be clearer, if that's what you were trying
to say. 'cost me' implies that we would take Con
from you, rather than prevent you from taking it.)
I'm willing to consider a convoy, (I'd prefer Nap
to Tun.) if you're willing to work with me to try
and keep Ankara Turkish. I'm willing to work with
you as a puppet against France and/or Russia, as
long as I have some hope of growth. Does this
interest you?
Eric the not quite dead, yet.
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:30 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> More explicitly, until you have taken an Austrian supply center
> I don't know how much I can trust you and I'm reluctant to have
> one of those fleets disbanded when I may well find myself with
> an Italian fleet in Con pushing on Ank and eventually into
> Sev. I need to know you're doing something other than planning
> to take Turkey all for yourself which, as far as I can see,
> is your only alternative to attacking Austria right away.
Now I got it. Thanks for the clarification. I am planning to take Con or
Ank and look what happens. You are not encouraging me to move against
Austria by telling me that I have no other way to work with you.
> But whenever I've offered you choices in the past you choose
> not to attack Austria and I'm LOSING the battle there. I need
> Help. A Alb is going to be destroyed, Rum and Bul are under threat.
> You still have the choice on whether to take Tri or Gre I guess,
> though if I were you I'd have both already.
>
> > About the forthcoming moves:
> > Would you be interested in moving Sev-Arm?
>
> Possibly.
:-} This helps a lot. Can I get anything out of you before the deadline?
> It doesn't look that hard to arange to me. Smy S Con - Ank gets
> that achieved straight away. It's just that I'd like to see
> some movement against Austria first.
To me it is important to see Eric's last unit eliminated. So far he has
helped you against me and that is bad for RI alliance.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:31 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
Once again, thank you for correcting my poor language.
> Armenia would not be my first choice of destinations, no.
I understand.
> What sort of reaction were you looking for?
Something else. More like:'Ok, I'll do it if plah,plah...'.
> >It looks like you have decided to work with Adam and I cost Con.
>
> (Umm, "work with Adam and cost me Con.", perhaps?
> "work with Adam and keep me from taking Con." would
> probably be clearer, if that's what you were trying
> to say. 'cost me' implies that we would take Con
> from you, rather than prevent you from taking it.)
Sorry, it should have been lost not cost.
> I'm willing to consider a convoy, (I'd prefer Nap
> to Tun.)
:-)
> if you're willing to work with me to try
> and keep Ankara Turkish. I'm willing to work with
> you as a puppet against France and/or Russia, as
> long as I have some hope of growth. Does this
> interest you?
Puppets are always useful. How would we be able to keep Ankara Turkish? I
do not dare to move there while I am not sure if there will be Con-Ank. If
I would end up there I would be dead 'cause Adam wants Ankara and he is
most probably moving Sev-Arm.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:32 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
>Once again, thank you for correcting my poor language.
No problem. You are almost always understandable, so
I wouldn't say your language use is poor, by any means.
I know some native English speakers who I have more
trouble understanding. 8-)
> > I'm willing to consider a convoy, (I'd prefer Nap
> > to Tun.)
>
>:-)
This actually wasn't a joke. In Tunis, my Army would
be useless without being convoyed somewhere else.
>From Naples, I can help you against Austria or France,
when you decide to attack them. I could move to Rome
this Fall, and then Tuscany next Spring, and then
on to Piedmont and Mar or Tyl, thereafter.
> > if you're willing to work with me to try
> > and keep Ankara Turkish.
>How would we be able to keep Ankara Turkish?
Smy-Arm, Aeg-Smy this spring should help. Both moves
are likely to bounce, but it will keep Adam out of Arm.
Will Adam move Con-Ank this Fall if you convoy me to
Nap this Spring? Hard to say, but it would give us at
least a 50-50 chance of keeping Ank Turkish.
Eric the Tactician.
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:34 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Keith thinks that Raine is rightly
> frightened that if he attacked Austria then I would get most
> of the gains leaving him faced with a massive Russia.
Could be. OTOH, I have learned to not put much stock in what Keith says.
> Raine himself hasn't said that but it makes a hell of a lot more
> sense than anything Raine HAS actually saud.
What he has told me is that he agrees to cooperation in principle, but has issues
with the details. His impression is that you require him to do certain moves to
begin IR cooperation, but he wants to do other moves. (I suppose this is still the
Turkey issue?) Whether it would help you to humour him and grant his demands or he
is just being unreasonable, I don't know.
> Thinking about this I'm fairly confident that the more you
> ask Raine to attack Austria the more he'll be convinced that
> you want him involved over there so that you can attack him
> from behind when you're ready.
He does seem a bit paranoid. What I told him is that if he gets some more growth
then he won't have to worry about me attacking him, and taking Austrian centers is
the quickest way for him to go. It seems he prefers to defend himself by cowering,
which doesn't make sense to me. The best way to keep you homeland secure is to
build new units.
> I can't afford to use A War to force StP either.
What about Mos S Nwy-StP? It leaves Nwy open, but at least it reclaims a home
center and gives you the option of future northern fleet builds.
> If I could make Peace with Austria and leave him to fight Raine
> for me, that could be handy, but it's a tricky thing to do I'd
> imagine. Keith is more reasonable than Raine is so it might be
> possible. Do you think that would be a good idea?
If that's what you have to do then go for it. If Raine isn't going to help you
then peace with Austria is probably your only option. Making progress against
him will be very difficult without Italian help, and the longer it takes, the
more dangerous Germany becomes.
> Yes, a year or so from now I'll have to either fight Germany
> or have him fight me I'd imagine so I'd sooner get the first
> punch in myself if it's possible.
I think you're right about that.
> I'm over-stretched and
> it seems people are noticing a lead I have only if you
> ignore position and the inevitable loss I'll suffer this
> year.
Maybe you need to consolidate and find an ally who will help you grow. Take the
loss this year, and sow the seeds for future growth.
Rod
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:35 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> Bre-Pic is easy to explain: it supports Belgium.
Given that I have Eng to support Bel, I'm not sure Germany would agree that Bre-Pic
is necessary.
> One can say that Bre-Mao ain't aggressive but Bre-Mao is hard
> to explain otherwise than moving against Italy.
MAO can advance to NAO. It allows me to use F Eng and F Iri against England and
still rotate forces around into the north.
> I can't help it but if you move to Mao I am worried. I will not use all my
> forces in east then.
I understand. However, consider that if you and Russia cooperate then you don't
really need a fleet in Eas, and if you take Gre then you can build a defensive unit,
which should allay your concerns. I still believe that the best solution is for
you to grow. If you are building new units then a fleet passing through MAO into
NAO is not a worry.
I do not want to give you reason to worry, but neither do I want to have my fleet
in Bre just sit there. If you get a build this year, will you no longer be worried?
I suppose you could get a build from either Gre or Con. If you really want to take
Con, I guess that's your prerogative, but I think that you and I will both fare better
with Russia as our ally.
> I am still in the middle of negotiations with
> Adam. So I hope I can make some advance in there.
I hope so too. Good luck!
Rod
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:37 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
The problem is, every time I write to you I end up deleting
pages of ranting explaining how wrong you are to leave
Austria alone. I can't understand at all why you've left
it so long nor why you're still so reluctant to attack
him. Your excuse that you want to see Turkey finihsed off
first was hollow when Turkey was a 3SC power, it's completely
empty and devoid of all substance now.
If I can't understand why you refuse, I can't argue against
it, I can't present other options that give you the same
thing while also satisfying my needs. I can't have any
real discourse with you at all until you have made me
understand why you are so reluctant because every time I
try I end up having to delete pages of text that I
find I've written which is less than diplomatic.
I've asked everyone why they think you're so sure that you're
doing the right thing because it's so alien to me I thought
maybe someone else would be able to explain it but almost
everyone said they didn't get it at all, your clear interest
was in reducing Austria's power and you have ample opertunity
to do so. There was only one player who could come up with
any reasons at all and this was Keith himself.
He thinks that you're frightened that if you were to attack
Austria then Russia would make most of the gains and you
would be left as a small Italy between my large Russia and
a large Germany/France. There's at least some logic and
reason behind this, though it's skewed since there's no
reason I can see that I'd get more gains than you. In fact
I think you'd get more of Austria than I did.
I don't know that there's anything more I can say. Until I
can at least understand why you're refusing to take supply
centers that have been open to you for well over a year
when you have promised backup and would be able to dismantle
the opposition in practically no time at all, I can't
explain why your reasons are ill-founded or find a plan to
accomodate you.
Can you try again to explain what you need exactly?
Adam........
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:41 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I love it when I have time to diplome :-)
> > Bre-Pic is easy to explain: it supports Belgium.
>
> Given that I have Eng to support Bel, I'm not sure Germany would agree that
> Bre-Pic is necessary.
No, I mean that Pic supports Bel and Eng and Iri are used against England.
> MAO can advance to NAO. It allows me to use F Eng and F Iri against
> England and still rotate forces around into the north.
Just like Iri can advance to Nao. You don't have a desperate need for
moving to Mao. I believe it is up to you how you want to move there. If
you want to be nice to Germany or if you want to be nice to me.
> I understand. However, consider that if you and Russia cooperate then you
> don't really need a fleet in Eas, and if you take Gre then you can build
> a defensive unit, which should allay your concerns. I still believe
> that the best solution is for you to
> grow. If you are building new units then a fleet passing through MAO into
> NAO is not a worry.
I am not sure of builds at this point. East is a mess.
> I do not want to give you reason to worry, but neither do I want to have my
> fleet in Bre just sit there. If you get a build this year, will you no
> longer be worried? I suppose you could get a build from either Gre or
> Con. If you really want to take
> Con, I guess that's your prerogative, but I think that you and I will both
> fare better with Russia as our ally.
I will be worried of your fleet in Mao anyway. If there ain't a flee in
there it means that I can commit my forces even more in the eastern
battles.
By the way Rod, my world is not going upside down if you move to Mao. If
you move to Mao it gives me a signal of your priorities. It tells me
something of your thoughts. I hope I have shown to you that I am the good
guy :-)
Raine
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:45 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Yet again, I sent this nearly an hour ago and I've still
got no reply. Wonder if it's something to do with the
Judge or just my email. The email seems to get out okay.
Oh well, you'll get the original copy of this tommorow
probably:
---------------
The problem is, every time I write to you I end up deleting
pages of ranting explaining how wrong you are to leave
Austria alone. I can't understand at all why you've left
it so long nor why you're still so reluctant to attack
him. Your excuse that you want to see Turkey finihsed off
first was hollow when Turkey was a 3SC power, it's completely
empty and devoid of all substance now.
If I can't understand why you refuse, I can't argue against
it, I can't present other options that give you the same
thing while also satisfying my needs. I can't have any
real discourse with you at all until you have made me
understand why you are so reluctant because every time I
try I end up having to delete pages of text that I
find I've written which is less than diplomatic.
I've asked everyone why they think you're so sure that you're
doing the right thing because it's so alien to me I thought
maybe someone else would be able to explain it but almost
everyone said they didn't get it at all, your clear interest
was in reducing Austria's power and you have ample opertunity
to do so. There was only one player who could come up with
any reasons at all and this was Keith himself.
He thinks that you're frightened that if you were to attack
Austria then Russia would make most of the gains and you
would be left as a small Italy between my large Russia and
a large Germany/France. There's at least some logic and
reason behind this, though it's skewed since there's no
reason I can see that I'd get more gains than you. In fact
I think you'd get more of Austria than I did.
I don't know that there's anything more I can say. Until I
can at least understand why you're refusing to take supply
centers that have been open to you for well over a year
when you have promised backup and would be able to dismantle
the opposition in practically no time at all, I can't
explain why your reasons are ill-founded or find a plan to
accomodate you.
Can you try again to explain what you need exactly?
Adam........
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:47 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Thanks for your note.
> Can you try again to explain what you need exactly?
I do want to tell you my reasons. I think I already told it to you once.
I try to make it simple and clear.
Beginning
-IT have difficulties with fleets. They have hard times to co-exists in
the long run.
-RAI go to get T. Fine with me.
Then the reasoning for 1st Turkey then Austria:
-----------------------------------------------
-Tempo. Italy is a swing type of country if you know what I mean.
It is fast and easy to arrange that Italy goes as far south east as
possible i.e. against Turkey. Then Italy starts to move west. First
against Austria, then against France. This is how I would have liked to
see our RI to develope. The problems (to my eyes) started when you took
Con from me and started to make demands. That was not in my schedule.
Now I find it difficult to trust you enough to attack Austria after what
you have done.
Afterwards it is easy to say that I have lost tempo and will lose even
more if we cannot make any deals how to continue. It is easy to say that
I would have been faster in your plan. The problem is that I was diploming
to do it my way.
In the long run we would have got rid of Turkey and Austria and IR would
have ruled no matter yours or mine plan we had followed. We were just too
stubborn. I hope I clarified my acts.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:48 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> What he has told me is that he agrees to cooperation in principle,
> but has issues with the details. His impression is that you require
> him to do certain moves to begin IR cooperation, but he wants to do
> other moves. (I suppose this is still the Turkey issue?)
Yeah. Apparently he's still frightened of Turkey working with
me to take his centers or something. Honestly, if he were a
friend of mine I'd be worried he's going insane.
> Whether it would help you to humour him and grant his demands
> or he is just being unreasonable, I don't know.
I've BEEN granting his demands because his only demands are
that he doesn't have to attack Austria until Turkey is dead.
Well, he's added one about getting Con back as well now too
but still. Could I have finished Eric off more quickly? Possibly,
just about, by a move or two. Not anymore though, Eric will
be eliminated at the end of this year reguardless so why won't
he attack Austria? What exactly does he think R/I cooperation
will entail if it's not an attack on Austria?
> He does seem a bit paranoid. What I told him is that if he gets
> some more growth then he won't have to worry about me attacking him,
> and taking Austrian centers is the quickest way for him to go. It
> seems he prefers to defend himself by cowering, which doesn't make
> sense to me. The best way to keep you homeland secure is to build
> new units.
Growth, new builds, extra centers. However you phrase it Italy
doesn't seem to want it unless the centers he takes used to be
yellow. I asked Keith if he'd kidnapped Raine's little brother
and threatened him harm should he attack Austria and Keith
didn't deny it so maybe that's it :)
> What about Mos S Nwy-StP? It leaves Nwy open, but at least it
> reclaims a home center and gives you the option of future northern
> fleet builds.
Not sure why but that hadn't even occured to me. I think I was
as interested in getting units north as I am in getting the
center back, that's probably why. Looks entertaining though,
I'll give it some thought.
> If that's what you have to do then go for it. If Raine isn't going
> to help you then peace with Austria is probably your only option.
> Making progress against him will be very difficult without Italian
> help, and the longer it takes, the more dangerous Germany becomes.
Exactly what I'd been thinking. I need to do a lot of talking
with Keith if that's going to work even a little though and
the deadline is comming like a train while he hasn't written
to me for a little while. I hope he's not planning to leave it
until just before the deadline, coz I'll be in bed.
> Maybe you need to consolidate and find an ally who will help
> you grow. Take the loss this year, and sow the seeds for future growth.
Yeah, whenever I see myself facing an inevitable loss it
reminds me that I really should think about position and
have a longer term plan rather than just doing the center-grab
waltz the way I tend to. Losing one or two centers usually
ends up doing me good that way.
Adam..........
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:51 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
Ok, let's think about how to keep Ankara Turkish.
> Smy-Arm, Aeg-Smy this spring should help. Both moves
> are likely to bounce, but it will keep Adam out of Arm.
> Will Adam move Con-Ank this Fall if you convoy me to
> Nap this Spring? Hard to say, but it would give us at
> least a 50-50 chance of keeping Ank Turkish.
I would do like this:
Smy s Syr-Arm
Syr-Arm (this way Armenia is empty or there is your army in there)
I really do not see any other option for Turkey to survive than Syr-Arm.
I asked Adam about Sev-Arm and he said 'possibly'. My instict say
'absolutely'. That means there is no reason for me to convoy you to
Tun/Nap or whatever 'cause I am not getting the compensating build from
Con/Ank. So I ask you to move to Armenia.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:53 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> -Tempo. Italy is a swing type of country if you know what I mean.
> It is fast and easy to arrange that Italy goes as far south east as
> possible i.e. against Turkey. Then Italy starts to move west. First
> against Austria, then against France. This is how I would have liked to
> see our RI to develope.
Which is what I thought we were planning to do, once Eric was
neutralized we'd move on to Austria. I did that, but you
continued to beat the dead horse and pound on Eric when he
was no longer a threat.
> The problems (to my eyes) started when you took
> Con from me and started to make demands.
Desperation. I'm going to lose in Austria without your help,
that was clear from the start. When I went in I thought you
had said you'd join the attack the very next year but you
didn't even then. I had to find some way to make you join
in the battle and taking Con seemed to do the trick: If I kept
it then you needed Gre to keep from disbanding. When it became
clear that even this wouldn't work I gave in and let you take
Smy.
> That was not in my schedule.
> Now I find it difficult to trust you enough to attack Austria after what
> you have done.
I see that, but you know why I did it: To get you to take
the nearby easy centers. You know that I really had no interest
in Con for Con's sake, it was taken as a bargining chip to
try and force you into taking Gre. What I don't understand
is what exactly you think I'm going to do which would be
bad for you should you attack Austria. I can't see any realistic
way to hurt you for more than one center anyway, two tops.
You'd get those from Austria even if I did it but you can
surely see that taking Austria is my priority anyway.
What exactly are you finding it hard to trust me to do? Do
you think I'm going to somehow fly over Austria to get at you?
> In the long run we would have got rid of Turkey and Austria and IR would
> have ruled no matter yours or mine plan we had followed. We were just too
> stubborn. I hope I clarified my acts.
The long run doesn't help us. France and Germany will have eliminated
England at the end of this year most probably. Next year for certain.
We don't have any more time, we have to make the south safe so
that we can fight them when they turn on us. Can you not see that?
Adam...........
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:56 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
>I would do like this:
>Smy s Syr-Arm, Syr-Arm (this way Armenia is empty or your army is there)
Well, actually, if you order Smy S Syr-Arm, Syr-Arm
can't be bounced unless Adam order Con-Smy. He has
no reason to do that without my support.
>I really do not see any other option for Turkey to survive than Syr-Arm.
The convoy guarantees that I survive.
>there is no reason for me to convoy you to Tun/Nap or whatever 'cause I am
>not getting the compensating build from Con/Ank.
Sure there is, it gets you a puppet who is a better
than average tactician. Plus, if you Convoy in the
Spring, you could still take Gre in the Fall.
Eric.
From - Mon Oct 22 17:27:57 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> Which is what I thought we were planning to do, once Eric was
> neutralized we'd move on to Austria. I did that, but you
> continued to beat the dead horse and pound on Eric when he
> was no longer a threat.
Eric was still there. He could not have been left there with 3 units.
He would have been your puppet for sure and that would have been bad for
me.
> Desperation. I'm going to lose in Austria without your help,
> that was clear from the start. When I went in I thought you
> had said you'd join the attack the very next year but you
> didn't even then. I had to find some way to make you join
> in the battle and taking Con seemed to do the trick: If I kept
> it then you needed Gre to keep from disbanding. When it became
> clear that even this wouldn't work I gave in and let you take
> Smy.
I don't think you ever really wanted to keep me out of Smyrna. It would
have been disastrous for you in Austrian border.
> I see that, but you know why I did it: To get you to take
> the nearby easy centers. You know that I really had no interest
> in Con for Con's sake, it was taken as a bargining chip to
> try and force you into taking Gre. What I don't understand
> is what exactly you think I'm going to do which would be
> bad for you should you attack Austria. I can't see any realistic
> way to hurt you for more than one center anyway, two tops.
> You'd get those from Austria even if I did it but you can
> surely see that taking Austria is my priority anyway.
We can still work together.
> What exactly are you finding it hard to trust me to do? Do
> you think I'm going to somehow fly over Austria to get at you?
No no. I was amazed to see your demands:
-attack Austria or you need to dispand 'cause I took my allies SC and
everything is done for Italy's best. Yeah, for sure.
How could I trust you? I mean we worked together against Turkey well and
then _my_ expansion stopped due to your actions. How could I trust you
that it won't happen again?
> The long run doesn't help us. France and Germany will have eliminated
> England at the end of this year most probably. Next year for certain.
> We don't have any more time, we have to make the south safe so
> that we can fight them when they turn on us. Can you not see that?
I do see it. I really do. That is why we need to stop arguing of what
happend in the past.
I propose the following:
Use Sev to guarantee that you won't lose Rumania.
Con-Ank
SMY-con
-This simple act destroys Turkey. It means no more talks of attacking
Turkey first - there would be no Turkey. No need for you to more Sev-Arm
and lose time.
-This is also good for you I have a fleet in Smy and army in Con they
cannot take Ankara from you.
Let me know how you feel of this.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 22 17:28:00 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
Please forgive me that I mentioned the convoy. I am not going to do it in
these circumstances.
> Well, actually, if you order Smy S Syr-Arm, Syr-Arm
> can't be bounced unless Adam order Con-Smy. He has
> no reason to do that without my support.
I would also say that Syr-Arm wouldn't bounce. There is 1% possibility.
So the question is are you willing to move there?
Raine
From - Mon Oct 22 17:28:03 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
Keith? Are you there? I could do with talking to you
really. Raine is still giving me unreasonable demands
and making unwarrented assumptions and I'm bored with
talking to him. I want to plot his downfall. I'll be
heading home in fifteen minutes or so and then I'll
be in bed another six or seven hours after that so
if we're going to talk I need to hear from you pretty
soon.
I'm thinking that Sev - Arm and moving Bul away from
it's current location would perhaps show you that
I'm genuine enough to get some help defending Con
in the fall? Would that be enough?
I really want Gal empty and to see you in Ven as
soon as possible. Is that what you want too?
Adam.........
From - Mon Oct 22 17:28:16 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
>Please forgive me that I mentioned the convoy. I am not going to do it in
>these circumstances.
I see. The Convoy WAS just an attempt to eliminate
me with less difficulty. Tell me something, how have
you been able to gain allies in your past games, when
any moves you propose only benefit you?
>I would also say that Syr-Arm wouldn't bounce. So the question is are you
>willing to move there?
Perhaps. It depends on what best accomplishes my
goals.
Eric.
From - Mon Oct 22 17:28:20 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> I love it when I have time to diplome :-)
Yes, it's nice. :-) It gives us time to talk and understand each other.
> I believe it is up to you how you want to move there. If
> you want to be nice to Germany or if you want to be nice to me.
My preference would be to do both. My plan is to use German help against England
this year, then attack G with Russian assistance next year. I can't harass Germany
this year, because Russia is not yet ready to assist me. So I want to appear nice to
Germany. I want to be nice to you too.
> I hope I have shown to you that I am the good guy :-)
Yes. I want to be the good guy too. So I want to be honest and tell you that I
will probably move to MAO, because it is what Germany wants to see. If I can
convince him of some other plan then I won't move to MAO, but I'm not sure about
that yet. If you feel that you must adjust your position in the south in response,
that's fine. I am confident that we can still both be good guys, because our
situation hasn't changed - neither of us would benefit from strife between us.
Let me know how your talks with Adam go. I am eager to see FIR move against GA,
but you and he must first come to agreement.
Rod
From - Mon Oct 22 17:28:24 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Your diploming with Russia is getting somewhere. Russia told me that he
> has more problems with England than with Austria :-) That is a good start.
> Have you talked with Russia about Sev?
Not specifically, although he just sent a note to me mentioning that he
was considering moving to Armenia and moving his fleet in Bul somewhere
(I presume to either Rum or Bla).
> After staring at the map for a long time I have to agree with you. I am
> willing to follow the original plan of yours. I would like to see you
> moving supportedly to Rumania. It would ease the pressure on Bulgaria in
> fall.
I will consider this. If I don't attack RUmania in the Spring, I will
surely support myself there in the Fall. At the very least, any support
Rumania could give would be cut.
> Please, support me to Bulgaria with Ser and Gre. I'll support your
> Tri-Alb.
Okay, I've ordered this. Let me know if you change your mind (but don't
change your orders unless you hear a confirmation from me).
> Tri-Alb
> Ser S Aeg-Bul(sc)
> Gre S Aeg-Bul(sc)
Done.
> I would like to see
> Bud s Gal-Rum
> Gal-Rum
> or
> Bud-Rum
> Gal-Ukr (we have to assume that Russia will use Mos in north, right?)
I'm not certain about Bud and Gal yet. I have many things to consider.
> Italy
> Aeg-Bul(sc)
> Smy-Con
> Ion s Tri-Alb
> You would probably like to see
> Ven-Apu/Pie/Tus
If you were to move Ven, it would cause some relief. However, it is not
a bid concern. I am sure I will move something back to Trieste in the
Fall, although if both Ven and Tri were clear, we could keep it this way
for a while. This might free up some of my units.
Austria
From - Mon Oct 22 17:28:26 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
For the Spring move, I am leaning in favor of following my plan with Germany. I have
not yet received final confirmation from him, but if he agrees to the plan then it's
probably my best option at this time. So I don't think there's anything specific
that you can do for me this turn. You should do whatever you think will benefit
*you* the most.
However, I will reassess the situation in the Fall, and if there's something devious
we can do to give me an edge, I will certainly be in touch.
Rod
From - Mon Oct 22 17:28:27 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> I'm thinking that Sev - Arm and moving Bul away from
> it's current location would perhaps show you that
> I'm genuine enough to get some help defending Con
> in the fall? Would that be enough?
>
> I really want Gal empty and to see you in Ven as
> soon as possible. Is that what you want too?
My objectives are: 1) to destroy your army in Albania, 2) to gain a
supply center this year. Now, I cannot take Venice while also destroying
your army in Albania. I just don't have the correct units to do so.
Do you have any ideas how I could get a supply center that is not Venice
this year?
I'm going to help Italy this turn, because he has moved favorably towards
me in the past when he had opportunities to do some serious damage.
However, if your actions also start to be the same as your words, then we
may be able to work together once again. Specifically, I would like to
see you not attack Galacia and not put an army into Rumania. These two
actions are considered hostile to Austria.
Austria
From - Mon Oct 22 17:28:31 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> I think once upon a time I suggested that we bounce in
> Bur this season. I don't recall if we've discussed that yet.
I'd say there is no need. Munich plans on holding; there's no way I'm going
to wander into French territory again. :)
> If Russia moves as expected then Den S Hel-Nth, Nth-Nwg
> is guaranteed...
Adam claims he will attack St Pete from Moscow so I guess I was mistaken
before. Cutting Ska might make good sense.
> Hmmmm. Maybe Den S Nth-Ska, Hel-Nth (or Nth S Den-Ska, Hel-Den;
> or Nth S Hel-Den, Den-Bal), Wal S Lon-Yor. Fall: Iri S Wal-Lvp, Nth S
> Yor-Edi (or Yor S Hol-Nth-Edi), Bel-Eng-Lon, and a supported attack on
> Swe. Or maybe Bel-Eng-Lon in the Spring, so Eng is free to move to MAO
> in the Fall.
That's a very good game-plan. I expect to be using Nth in Scandanavia so if
you can support Lon - Yor, I would appreciate it. I'm not sure about the
fleet moves yet, though; I'll have to think about that a bit.
If you'd like to talk some more, I'll be here a bit after dinner but
otherwise, I think we are all set. I'll order Lon - Yor and I'll leave
Belgium and Burgundy alone.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 22 17:28:32 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Eric was still there. He could not have been left there with 3 units.
> He would have been your puppet for sure and that would have been bad for
> me.
Ah, a puppet. Possibly, though I think he'd have taken any
opertunity he was given rather than being a puppet as such.
I'm sure he'd have been just as happy to support you into
Austria or whatever as me into Con. Puppets need the right
kind of strings, ones with carrots at the end.
> I don't think you ever really wanted to keep me out of Smyrna.
> It would have been disastrous for you in Austrian border.
I did plan to, during the spring, but you're right that
it didn't look like such a hot idea anyway in the fall.
Well, I'm afraid that you're probably in bed now. There's
some chance you'll be up before the deadline though and
there's no chance of that for me.
> No no. I was amazed to see your demands:
> -attack Austria or you need to dispand 'cause I took my allies SC and
> everything is done for Italy's best. Yeah, for sure.
I still think it would have been for the best, but like you keep
saying, the past isn't going to help us now anyway. I do realize
it was desperate and unfriendly to try and gunboat you into
doing as I asked but I felt like I had no choice.
> How could I trust you? I mean we worked together against Turkey well and
> then _my_ expansion stopped due to your actions. How could I trust you
> that it won't happen again?
> Use Sev to guarantee that you won't lose Rumania.
> Con-Ank
> SMY-con
> -This simple act destroys Turkey. It means no more talks of attacking
> Turkey first - there would be no Turkey. No need for you to more Sev-Arm
> and lose time.
Well, taking Ank means Turkey dies in the Fall but he'd still
have the fall move of course. He could cause trouble for me
if he moved to Arm but that's unlikely I think.
> -This is also good for you I have a fleet in Smy and army in Con they
> cannot take Ankara from you.
>
> Let me know how you feel of this.
Well, I'd have very much liked you to at least say you'll maybe
try for Gre in the fall if I agreed. I'll move to Ank as you
asked, but now I'm the one that feels like he's beeing dictated
too. I've felt like that all the time, this is part of the
reason I took Con - to try and turn the tables and set up a
situation where I can tell you what to do.
Adam............
From - Mon Oct 22 17:28:34 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> Adam claims he will attack St Pete from Moscow so I guess I was mistaken
> before.
I suggested Mos S Nwy-StP to Adam a few hours ago, and he claimed he had overlooked
that possibility and will now consider it.
> That's a very good game-plan. I expect to be using Nth in Scandanavia so if
> you can support Lon - Yor, I would appreciate it.
OK. I will support Lon-Yor. Are you OK with Bel-Lon in the Spring? That would
free up F Eng in the Fall.
> I'm not sure about the
> fleet moves yet, though; I'll have to think about that a bit.
I believe your best bet is to guarantee that you'll get both Edi and a Scandinavian
center in the Fall. If you plan to allocate Nth against Edi in the Fall then I think
the surest plan in Scand is to put two fleets on Swe.
It might not be necessary to tap Ska just yet if Adam really will do Mos S Nwy-StP.
Whether he reclaims StP now or in the Fall or sometime next year is not a big deal.
The only concern is making sure that he leaves you alone and does not cooperate with
Brent.
> I'd say there is no need. Munich plans on holding; there's no way I'm going
> to wander into French territory again. :)
I do trust that you will stay out of Bur, but I sometimes suffer from sporadic paranoia.
If we do agree that I vacate Bel this season, then a bounce in Bur would quell any
irrational fears I might have.
Rod
From - Mon Oct 22 17:28:35 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> My objectives are: 1) to destroy your army in Albania,
Which you can do whatever I do this spring of course.
> 2) to gain a supply center this year. Now, I cannot take
> Venice while also destroying your army in Albania. I
> just don't have the correct units to do so.
Well, there's the trust me move which I can't expect you
to take where you leave Alb to hold in the spring and
then dislodge it for disband in the fall. Ser - Tri and
Tri - Tyr with Bud - Ser followed by those two supporting
into Ven and Gre and A Ser dislodging A Alb. It would
be a shock for everyone which is always nice but I can't
expect you to agree it at all.
> Do you have any ideas how I could get a supply center that is not Venice
> this year?
Well, Rum and Bul look pretty vunerable but I'd sooner you
didn't take those. There's nothing else basically within
reach.
> However, if your actions also start to be the same as your words, then we
> may be able to work together once again. Specifically, I would like to
> see you not attack Galacia and not put an army into Rumania. These two
> actions are considered hostile to Austria.
Well, I can go for not attacking Gal. I could maybe even go for
vacating Bul but I don't think moving Bul to Rum would be
particually advantageous for either of us and I can't leave
Rum just empty, I'm sure you appreciate.
Maybe we could bounce there? A Gal and A Bud support in and A Sev
and A Ukr try for it too. I'd have to cut Ser's support with
Alb of course. Bul would move south to Con and Con would take
Smy or Ank or whatver.
Would that work to your satisfaction? I have about three hours
before I have to make up my mind.
Adam........
From - Mon Oct 22 17:28:37 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
> No. I was planning on waiting for the Fall to recapture Norway.
> Obviously this requires a bit of trust on my part, but at this point I don't
> have a lot of options. If Germany takes Sweden in the Spring, he will most
> likely take Norway in the Fall, and then start working on a convoy through
> the Baltic since you will have no fleets to defend against it. Is it really
> worth risking all that just to hold on to Norway?
I don't think that's what he will do, and if he does I think
there's a good chance of a French Calvary, but I don't like
relying on these hunches of mine and I'm doing so all over
the board. I'm so overstretched, I've screwed it up completely
all over the place.
> That is certainly not the case, but I think you may have underestimated
> their abilities to turn a situation like this to their advantage. You may
> not be in the strongest position, but you are in a strong one, and people
> can use that to "legitimize" turning against you. If doing so will enable
> them to pick up a few quick centers, don't think that it won't happen.
> There's a lot of good manipulators on this board, and you can bet that if
> they aren't in the lead they're figuring out a way to get there.
I'm sure they're telling each other all kinds of fancy stories
but are the players here not capeable of seeing through their
blatent manipulation?
Well, if we're waiting until the fall for your moves anyway then
there's no immediate rush I guess. I'll order Nwy S Mos - StP
which is what everyone expects in the spring anyway. I guess
Ska - Nwy will stop that, but it'll also let Germany into Swe
so it's up to you.
Adam.......
From - Mon Oct 22 17:28:39 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
You seemed to have missed my point. I was offering to support you
into Sweden this turn so that we could defend it from Germany, and then
I would take Norway from Ska in the fall. If you attack StP this turn,
Germany will take Sweden. I can't defend your center at the expense of
losing St.Petersburg. I can help you defend it though if it means that
I will gain a center and more importantly an ally. What have you got to
lose? You know I'm working against Germany, and you've said yourself
that you can't take St. Petersburg back from me for quite some time.
Why not put yourself in a position where you can defend your Northern
position and also gain an ally who may be at 3 centers but still has
some fight left in him?
Brent
From - Mon Oct 22 17:28:40 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> > 2) to gain a supply center this year. Now, I cannot take
> > Venice while also destroying your army in Albania. I
> > just don't have the correct units to do so.
>
> Well, there's the trust me move which I can't expect you
> to take where you leave Alb to hold in the spring and
> then dislodge it for disband in the fall. Ser - Tri and
> Tri - Tyr with Bud - Ser followed by those two supporting
> into Ven and Gre and A Ser dislodging A Alb. It would
> be a shock for everyone which is always nice but I can't
> expect you to agree it at all.
Of course I can't do this. As far as I can tell, you are attacking me
and intend to continue attacking me. For all I know, Italy is going to
attack me too. I can't take this risk.
> > Do you have any ideas how I could get a supply center that is not Venice
> > this year?
>
> Well, Rum and Bul look pretty vunerable but I'd sooner you
> didn't take those. There's nothing else basically within
> reach.
I see.
> Maybe we could bounce there? A Gal and A Bud support in and A Sev
> and A Ukr try for it too. I'd have to cut Ser's support with
> Alb of course. Bul would move south to Con and Con would take
> Smy or Ank or whatver.
>
> Would that work to your satisfaction? I have about three hours
> before I have to make up my mind.
Hmm... That might work. I'm not sure what to do with Bud and Gal yet.
I wouldn't want Gal-Rum to succeed and have you move to Gal. The concern
I have with your being is Rum is that if you have armies in Ukr, Rum and
War, then I would feel pretty vulnerable. The more I have to defend
myself, the less flexibility I would have in making movements elsewhere.
Austria
From - Mon Oct 22 20:52:20 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
> I can't defend your center at the expense of
> losing St.Petersburg. I can help you defend it though if it means that
> I will gain a center
So, I'm defending Sweeden from Germany by giving it to
you? I think you can see why I wasn't sure this was
what you were suggesting.
> What have you got to lose?
The main one would be that I encourage Germany to attack
me basically.
> Why not put yourself in a position where you can defend your Northern
> position and also gain an ally who may be at 3 centers but still has
> some fight left in him?
I tried this with Turkey, it just turned Raine against me
and now I can't get him to attack Austria. Okay, so something
similar has worked in the past but still.
Adam.......
From - Mon Oct 22 20:52:22 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Good enough. I'll see what I can arrange with Russia, and will remain at
your disposal next season. Just remember that if you pick off all my home
centers I'm not going to be of much use!
Brent
From - Mon Oct 22 20:52:25 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Okay, I have no problem with Bel - Lon and I understand your concern over
Belgium. I'll order Lon - Yor and Mun - Bur for the bounce. That works for
you, right?
My current game plan (subject to change with word from Adam) is to dislodge
Ska and place fleets against Sweden.
I have a bunch of work to see to tonight, so I won't be pressing much.
Write if you'd like. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 22 20:52:26 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I understand from Rod that you're considering Nwy - StP with support from
Moscow. That's pretty much what I would expect you to do so I'll tap the
Skaggerak with one of my fleets so your attack is guaranteed to work.
Write if you'd like or if you need to coordinate something. I'll be here
for a little bit, but no more than a couple of hours or so. Also, Keith has
been trying to entice me into Silesia. I've said no.
That's about it for now. I should have more time to talk in a day or so
when work blows over. Thanks and good luck.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 22 20:52:28 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> Okay, I have no problem with Bel - Lon and I understand your concern over
> Belgium. I'll order Lon - Yor and Mun - Bur for the bounce. That works for
> you, right?
Yes. Thanks for humoring me. :-)
> My current game plan (subject to change with word from Adam) is to dislodge
> Ska and place fleets against Sweden.
Sounds good. That forces Brent to retreat away from Nth.
> I have a bunch of work to see to tonight, so I won't be pressing much.
No problem. I think everything is settled. My orders are Wal S
Lon-Yor, Bel-Eng-Lon, Bre-MAO, Gas-Bur.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 23 05:31:57 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
> Yes. Thanks for humoring me. :-)
Yep, I understand. The game is still very young and you and I are just now
starting to work together. The division of England is always tricky for FG;
we both need our fleets to get the job done, but we're both wary of the
other; that's just the way it is. No biggie.
> No problem. I think everything is settled. My orders are
> Wal S Lon-Yor, Bel-Eng-Lon, Bre-MAO, Gas-Bur.
Yes, will do. Lon - Yor, Mun - Bur, and Hol H
Thanks again. Talk soon I hope.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 23 05:31:59 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
Regarding the sauna, our local health club has an excellent one complete
with a bucket of cold water, a ladle, and a pile of *very* hot rocks. If
you have the chance, I would say go for it. Every time I do it, I feel
great afterwards; my wife uses it all the time.
Unfortunately, I don't get the chance very often; work keeps me pretty busy.
In my den though, (where I do most of my work), I have an office set up with
my PC, a couple of file cabinets, and my rowing machine. That's where I get
most of my exercise.
Back to Gutsy. Regarding the north and west, I agree that it will probably
resolve more quickly than the east but that doesn't mean I want you to turn
on France right away. I just want you to give him something to think about.
I'm willing to do the same, but Scandanavia is my biggest concern right now.
Thanks, write when you can.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 23 05:32:03 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
> I see. The Convoy WAS just an attempt to eliminate
> me with less difficulty. Tell me something, how have
> you been able to gain allies in your past games, when
> any moves you propose only benefit you?
No. If I had a chance to swap Tun to Con so that there would have been no
need to dispand, I would have convoyd you to Tunis. I have gained allies
in my previous games. I don't know how. Maybe they were even worse players
than I am...
> >I would also say that Syr-Arm wouldn't bounce. So the question is are you
> >willing to move there?
>
> Perhaps. It depends on what best accomplishes my
> goals.
I see. I know for sure that you do not want to get support to
Syria-Armenia 'cause I cannot be sure if you are moving there.
Even that I am the 'bad' guy who cannot gain allies and so I hope that
you'll be satisfied with the forthcoming moves. I assume that Adam is
coming to Armenia and I cannot see why you want it.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 23 05:32:05 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I am like a child who is not getting the candy he wants :-(
Not really but I do not like your move to Mao. In this case it helps only
little that you tell it in advance. Now I know your priorities, Rod. Sad
to see that my hopes are not on top (maybe I just want too much).
> My preference would be to do both. My plan is to use German help against
> England this year, then attack G with Russian assistance next year. I
> can't harass Germany this year, because Russia is not yet ready to
> assist me. So I want to appear nice to
> Germany. I want to be nice to you too.
As an experienced player you have some other plans also than FR against G.
Maybe it is time to talk about those possibilities.
> Yes. I want to be the good guy too. So I want to be honest and tell you
> that I will probably move to MAO, because it is what Germany wants to
> see. If I can convince him of some other plan then I won't move to MAO,
> but I'm not sure about that yet. If
> you feel that you must adjust your position in the south in response, that's
> fine. I am confident that we can still both be good guys, because our
> situation hasn't changed - neither of us would benefit from strife
> between us.
Thanks for telling it in advance. I would have preferred to see no fleet
in Mao but there is nothing I can do. I will delay my attack against
Austria once again. I would be insane to attack Austria while there is
non-cooperative Russia and a chance that France will come to aid his
Russian friend. I want to be honest with you.
> Let me know how your talks with Adam go. I am eager to see FIR move against
> GA, but you and he must first come to agreement.
RI is not working. We are both giving proposals but we are not able to
agree anything. I am stubborn and Adam seems to be too. I know I am half
the problem but only half.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 23 05:32:06 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
I hope you are still attacking Rum with support. No need to tell me it in
advance. I hope we'll have enough trust between us at some point in
future.
> Okay, I've ordered this. Let me know if you change your mind (but don't
> change your orders unless you hear a confirmation from me).
Don't worry. I won't change anything. Especially if I don't hear from you.
> If you were to move Ven, it would cause some relief. However, it is not
> a bid concern. I am sure I will move something back to Trieste in the
> Fall, although if both Ven and Tri were clear, we could keep it this way
> for a while. This might free up some of my units.
It would be ideal to have Ven & Tri free. I'll move out of Venice.
I know I am not doing the ideal moves this year but I am willing to do
non-ideal moves to get you on my side.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 23 05:32:08 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: S1904M Tue Oct 23 2001 20:00:00 +1300
Movement results for Spring of 1904. (gutsy.012)
Austria: Army Serbia SUPPORT Italian Fleet Aegean Sea -> Bulgaria (south coast). (*cut*)
Austria: Army Galicia HOLD.
Austria: Fleet Greece SUPPORT Italian Fleet Aegean Sea -> Bulgaria (south coast).
Austria: Army Trieste -> Albania.
Austria: Army Budapest SUPPORT Army Galicia.
England: Army Yorkshire -> Edinburgh.
England: Fleet St Petersburg (north coast) SUPPORT Fleet Skagerrak -> Norway. (*cut*)
England: Fleet Skagerrak -> Norway. (*bounce, dislodged*)
France: Army Gascony -> Burgundy. (*bounce*)
France: Army Wales SUPPORT German Army London -> Yorkshire.
France: Fleet English Channel CONVOY Army Belgium -> London.
France: Army Belgium -> English Channel -> London.
France: Fleet Irish Sea HOLD.
France: Fleet Brest -> Mid-Atlantic Ocean.
Germany: Army London -> Yorkshire.
Germany: Army Holland HOLD.
Germany: Fleet Denmark -> Skagerrak.
Germany: Army Munich -> Burgundy. (*bounce*)
Germany: Fleet North Sea SUPPORT Fleet Denmark -> Skagerrak.
Germany: Fleet Helgoland Bight -> Denmark.
Italy: Army Smyrna -> Constantinople.
Italy: Army Venice -> Apulia.
Italy: Fleet Aegean Sea -> Bulgaria (south coast).
Italy: Fleet Eastern Mediterranean -> Aegean Sea.
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea SUPPORT Austrian Army Trieste -> Albania.
Russia: Army Albania -> Serbia. (*bounce, dislodged*)
Russia: Army Ukraine SUPPORT Army Sevastopol -> Rumania.
Russia: Fleet Constantinople -> Ankara.
Russia: Fleet Norway SUPPORT Army Moscow -> St Petersburg. (*cut*)
Russia: Fleet Bulgaria (east coast) SUPPORT Army Sevastopol -> Rumania. (*cut, dislodged*)
Russia: Army Warsaw HOLD.
Russia: Army Moscow -> St Petersburg. (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Sevastopol -> Rumania.
Turkey: Army Syria SUPPORT Russian Fleet Constantinople -> Smyrna. (*void*)
The following units were dislodged:
The English Fleet in the Skagerrak can retreat to Sweden.
The Russian Army in Albania with no valid retreats was destroyed.
The Russian Fleet in Bulgaria (east coast) can retreat to Black Sea.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Retreats for Spring of 1904.
The deadline for orders will be Wed Oct 24 2001 19:01:34 +1300.
From - Tue Oct 23 20:58:25 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
> > I see. The Convoy WAS just an attempt to eliminate
> > me with less difficulty. Tell me something, how have
> > you been able to gain allies in your past games, when
> > any moves you propose only benefit you?
>
> No. If I had a chance to swap Tun to Con so that there would have been no
> need to dispand, I would have convoyd you to Tunis. I have gained allies
> in my previous games. I don't know how. Maybe they were even worse
> players than I am...
I apologize for this comment. I didn't intend it as an insult. Trying to
negotiate
with you has been frustrating, though. I can't tell whether you decided to
eliminate me from the start, and have just been sending me press to try to
discover/influence my moves, or whether you were actually interested in
allying,
and we just never managed to reach an understanding. I'm trying to figure
out
why I lost this game, and it seems as though you're the one with the
answers. ;^}
Eric.
From - Tue Oct 23 20:58:37 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
> I apologize for this comment. I didn't intend it as an insult. Trying to
> negotiate
> with you has been frustrating, though. I can't tell whether you decided to
> eliminate me from the start, and have just been sending me press to try to
> discover/influence my moves, or whether you were actually interested in
> allying,
> and we just never managed to reach an understanding. I'm trying to figure
> out
> why I lost this game, and it seems as though you're the one with the
> answers. ;^}
No need to apologize. I understand your situation and I know that I am not
the easiest person to deal with. I did not decide at the start that Turkey
must be eliminated. I jumped along to the RA wagon (should I say
bandwagon?) which took you as a first target. I was not the wicked
firestarter.
You have not lost this game, yet. Ankara is still yours and you have the
possibility to gain Smyrna.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 23 20:58:43 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Italy: Fleet Aegean Sea -> Bulgaria (south coast).
Ah, I see. Is this kind of attack the kind where you
now make demands of me for continued cooperation or
is this the kind of attack where you continue to
push? All of Turkey or nothing kind of deal?
Adam........
From - Tue Oct 23 20:58:44 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Ok, I'll order Syr S Con-Smy.
Sorry Eric. I was negotiating with Keith to see if I could
turn the tables and get out of that fight and into one
with Raine but it didn't go too well and I decided I needed
Sev to move to Rum. I guess I can see why it didn't go
very well now that Raine's in Bul.
I guess that you're probably out now, even if I supported
you into Smy it wouldn't work. Oh well, nice playing with
you.
Adam.........
From - Tue Oct 23 20:58:46 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
Sorry about stopping negotations early last night, I fell
asleep. I see what you meant about helping Italy now, youch,
helping him a little more than I'd figured.
Given this agression from Raine and you I'm kinda glad I
didn't get chance to finish our negotation and do the
bounce in Rum though.
You're definately in a position where it's your turn to
make demands though, I guess that's good for you anyway.
Adam.........
From - Tue Oct 23 20:58:54 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> I understand from Rod that you're considering Nwy - StP with support from
> Moscow. That's pretty much what I would expect you to do so I'll tap the
> Skaggerak with one of my fleets so your attack is guaranteed to work.
Tap? You call that a tap? Heh. He'll retreat to Swe of course,
but I guess you'll blast him out of there in the fall. Next
year he'll be down to just F StP which I can handle I suppose,
though I'm sure you've noticed that I have some terrible
trouble in the south now. Raine really didn't like me taking
Con. I think he holds grudges, imagine that. Yikes.
> Also, Keith has been trying to entice me into Silesia. I've said no.
Thanks for that at least, I think I'm going to have enough
trouble as it is without a German enemy too. I noticed your
bounce in Bur - it looked arranged to me, was that the case?
It would be good to see Rod move into Italy's West Wing
but not if that means you have to move East of course.
Adam........
From - Tue Oct 23 20:58:56 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
Adam,
> I guess that you're probably out now, even if I supported
> you into Smy it wouldn't work. Oh well, nice playing with
> you.
Well, Bla S Ank-Con, Syr-Smy could actually get me a
build... ;^}
Eric, "I'm not quite dead, yet! I'm feeling better, really!"
From - Tue Oct 23 20:58:58 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
Looks like Raine screwed you. If you want to hit him back (at the risk of letting
Austria take Rum), you could do Rum-Bul, Bla S Ank-Con, Syr-Smy. It takes either
Con or Smy and keeps Turkey alive, which would really spite Raine. ;-)
Germany intends to take Edi and Swe this year. I think our choices are to attack
him (which will be difficult - we would both have to commit to the attack, and you
must secure peace with Austria) or to convince him to move after AI. What are your
feelings on this?
Rod
From - Tue Oct 23 20:59:01 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> Not really but I do not like your move to Mao. In this case it helps only
> little that you tell it in advance.
I know how you feel. It was the same when you told me in advance that you were moving
to Pie.
> As an experienced player you have some other plans also than FR against G.
FR against G is my first choice, but it will be difficult if Russia is losing centers
in the south.
You're right that I have another option - to attack Italy. However, I don't want to
attack Italy. You're not an attractive target. Unfortunately, Germany is not a very
attractive target right now either - but if Russia is able to assist me, then Germany
*is* a good target. Those are my priorities.
> I would be insane to attack Austria while there is
> non-cooperative Russia
I don't know exactly what you and he were discussing, but Con-Ank looks pretty
cooperative to me. Was there something else that you required from him?
> and a chance that France will come to aid his Russian friend.
My intent has always been that you aid him so I don't have to.
> I want to be honest with you.
Thank you. I want to be honest too.
> I know I am half the problem but only half.
Are you willing to be half the solution? If you order Ion/Aeg S Bul-Gre, Con-Bul
then Russia stays even in the south, Turkey dies, and you still get your two builds.
And with two builds, I hope that you no longer fear my fleet in MAO.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 23 20:59:05 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
I think dislodging Ska was a good call. It puts you in excellent position to take
Nwy next Spring.
Italy getting two builds was not what I wanted to see. It might help if you distract
IA with Mun-Tyl, but I suppose that could be risky for you. I think your choices are
to either stab Russia or assist him against Austria.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 23 20:59:09 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
I think Adam wanted to kow-tow to Italy in order to get his assistance against Austria.
However, it looks like that might change. ;-) I suggested Rum-Bul, Bla S Ank-Con to
him, so if Syr-Smy then you might actually stay alive.
Good luck!
Rod
From - Tue Oct 23 20:59:13 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
Keith,
It looks like Russia is left without any allies. Nice work! ;-)
Rod
From - Tue Oct 23 20:59:23 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> Looks like Raine screwed you.
Yeah, but not as badly as it looks, I'd agreed to give him Con
back anyway (though under duress admitedly) so Bul is the only
suprise as such, and that was half expected. Well, at least
considered. I'm more worried about the fact he's not replied
to my press today to be honest.
> If you want to hit him back (at the risk of letting Austria take Rum),
While I'd quite like to hit him back, mindless revenge has
never been my thing, especially at the risk of any of
my rapidly dwindling centers.
> you could do Rum-Bul, Bla S Ank-Con, Syr-Smy. It takes either Con
> or Smy and keeps Turkey alive, which would really spite Raine. ;-)
I wonder if this plan came from Eric at all? I'm a long way from
being sure what I want to do but I'm hoping to find something
a little more constructive than this to be honest. I'd like to,
for instance, take Con or Bul back and KEEP Ank. That should
stop me having to disband some more (Alb was already destoryed)
in the fall.
I'm not terribly optimistic about this however.
> Germany intends to take Edi and Swe this year.
Yeah, I know about Swe at least and Edi doesn't bother me a great
deal. I could do with having StP in return for Swe but since
that's impossible (short of Brent just walking out) there's
not much that can be done.
> I think our choices are to attack him (which will be difficult -
> we would both have to commit to the attack, and you must secure peace
> with Austria)
I was talking peace with Austria up until the deadline, he said
he would be helping Raine this spring (which is why Bul isn't
all that big a surprize) but that if I left only two armies
bordering Gal this spring then he would consider helping me.
I didn't think I could risk Rum that lightly and I also fell
asleep on my couch last night while I was pondering what to
write to him so my moves arranged with Raine went though.
I don't think peace is going to be that easy.
> or to convince him to move after AI. What are your feelings on this?
The three of us taking Austria and Italy on? Not a bad plan,
all things considered. Germany could move into Austria and
you could take Raine's West Wing while I kept them busy at
least in Turkey and along the RA border. If we wanted a three
way draw then working in from three of the edges that way
would be a reasonable way to go about it. Kind of scary on
the potential-solo front though since all three of us would
be straddling the stalemate line that way. Still, makes things
a little more exciting.
Can't say I'd be completely happy with Germany building all
the armies he'd need and marching them in roughly my direction
to get at Austria but then it beats those same armies marching
in exactly my direction to make it three against one!
Adam..........
From - Tue Oct 23 20:59:24 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
That worked well. I didn't expect Russia to move Con-Ank, though. The
next move could be a bit tricky. Turkey will undoubtedly move Syr-Smy.
Russia has to decide whether to attack Con or Bul. Assuming you want to
bounce Turkey in Smy, we should decide which one to protect.
I'd look at something like
Con-Smy, Bul-Con, Aeg S Bul-Con
I'll attack Rumania.
What do you think?
On another note, it is difficult to tell what is going on with France and
Germany. If I had to guess, I would say that France would move Mid-Wes.
He's not really poised to attack Germany. What is he telling you?
Austria
From - Tue Oct 23 20:59:26 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> It looks like Russia is left without any allies. Nice work! ;-)
It would seem that way. Of course he never really had allies to begin with.
It will be interesting to see what happens between you and Germany. It
looks like you are both set to go separate ways, but you never know.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 23 20:59:27 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
>Message France to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hey, Rod,
>I think Adam wanted to kow-tow to Italy in order to
>get his assistance against Austria. However, it
>looks like that might change. ;-) I suggested
>Rum-Bul, Bla S Ank-Con to him, so if Syr-Smy then you might actually stay
>alive.
Yeah, that's the plan. I could actually end up with
a build if things fall my way. ;^}
Eric.
From - Tue Oct 23 20:59:28 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> Sorry about stopping negotations early last night, I fell
> asleep. I see what you meant about helping Italy now, youch,
> helping him a little more than I'd figured.
Well I had no choice. You would probably have done the same if the
situation were reversed. I think you should be able to get Bul or Con
back, though. Surely Italy will want to bounce Turkey from Smy.
> You're definately in a position where it's your turn to
> make demands though, I guess that's good for you anyway.
Okay, I demand that you let me take Rumania and support Gre-Bul. How's
that? I can't imagine that you're interested in meeting my demands, though.
On another note, what do you think about Germany and France? Do you
think that they will each go their separate ways (France towards Italy
and Germany towards you) next year, or do you think that they will attack
each other? What are they telling you? I'm not getting much information
from them. Maybe no one knows what they will do.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 23 20:59:31 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
I'm guessing France will go for Italy. Though if Italy gets two builds
he won't get far. Of course if Italy gets two buidls France might need
to do a pre-emptive strike Mid-Wes and build F Mar. What do you think?
It looks like you and France can go separate ways now, France towards
Italy and you towards Russia. Anything can happen, though....
Austria
From - Tue Oct 23 20:59:36 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> While I'd quite like to hit him back, mindless revenge has
> never been my thing, especially at the risk of any of
> my rapidly dwindling centers.
Yeah, it usually doesn't work out very well - but it sure feels good for a time. ;-)
> I wonder if this plan came from Eric at all?
No, I thought it up on my own - though I wouldn't be surprised if he arrived at the
same plan independently.
> I'm hoping to find something
> a little more constructive than this to be honest.
That's a good idea, but you'll need somebody (other than just me) on your side.
> I'd like to, for instance, take Con or Bul back and KEEP Ank.
That would be ideal - if you can pull it off.
> I could do with having StP in return for Swe but since
> that's impossible (short of Brent just walking out) there's
> not much that can be done.
Swe is lost, but you do have the option of trading Nwy for StP. If I were in your
shoes, I think I'd order Mos S Nwy-StP.
> but that if I left only two armies
> bordering Gal this spring then he would consider helping me.
> I didn't think I could risk Rum that lightly
I think you made the right decision. Keith "considering" to help you is meaningless.
Either he agrees to help you if you back off or he doesn't.
> The three of us taking Austria and Italy on? Not a bad plan,
> all things considered.
I agree with your assessment of the risks, but it's probably the most attractive option.
I have suggested to Steve that he move to Tyl, and I'll let you know what I hear from him.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 23 20:59:42 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
> I could actually end up with
> a build if things fall my way. ;^}
You can always dream. :-)
Rod
From - Tue Oct 23 20:59:49 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Well I had no choice. You would probably have done the same if the
> situation were reversed.
Oh, surely, I blame myself entirely. I very nearly did
put in some more anti-italian moves - the Smy support
probably shows roughly what - but I decided I had to
give him the benifit of doubt in the end. Not that
the other moves would have been much better. I was
in trouble as soon as I realized Raine didn't intend
to help me against you I think.
> I think you should be able to get Bul or Con
> back, though. Surely Italy will want to bounce Turkey from Smy.
Probably, if I go for one do you want to go for the other?
I could probably help you into Bul from Rum for instance.
> Okay, I demand that you let me take Rumania and support Gre-Bul. How's
> that?
The second part isn't quite as insane as the first. Even a
demand has to be reasonable if anybody is going to get anywhere.
> I can't imagine that you're interested in meeting my demands, though.
Well, not the one about Rum for sure but I'm at least as interested
in making peace between us and getting your armies pointed toward
Raine as I was before we hit a roadblock on our discussion last
spring. I couldn't leave Rum empty and taking it with the fleet
was tricky. A bounce might have worked but we didn't have time to
sort one out. If you want Bul back though, and you said you
wanted a gain this year, then I could probably support you in
from Rum. That should keep you from actually attacking Rum
too hard too which would be a bonus.
In return I'd have to ask you to cut Aeg support so I could
get back into Con. And ideally leave Gal too.
Not quite what you demanded, but pretty good for both of us
and we were starting to work toward peace before this.
> On another note, what do you think about Germany and France? Do you
> think that they will each go their separate ways (France towards Italy
> and Germany towards you) next year, or do you think that they will attack
> each other? What are they telling you? I'm not getting much information
> from them. Maybe no one knows what they will do.
The bounce in Bur looked aranged to me, but that could just
be the way floc.net draws the lines.
France and I were trying to figure out a way which we could
attack Germany next year, but I couldn't get myself untangled
from fighting with you quickly enough by the look of it.
Since he can't get my help in Germany I'd say there's a good
chance that France will try Italy instead and Germany one
of us two. Most likely me out of the two I'd imagine since
Scandanavia would give him a use for his fleets too but
then he's more well disposed towards me since I left Berlin
when I could have taken it and he'd be quite confident of
the others help whichever of us he attacked.
Of course, we could still turn the tables on him if we
can get Gal emptied and then you could help France in
Italy and me with Germany instead.
Adam........
From - Tue Oct 23 20:59:52 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> > I can't imagine that you're interested in meeting my demands, though.
>
> Well, not the one about Rum for sure but I'm at least as interested
> in making peace between us and getting your armies pointed toward
> Raine as I was before we hit a roadblock on our discussion last
> spring. I couldn't leave Rum empty and taking it with the fleet
> was tricky. A bounce might have worked but we didn't have time to
> sort one out. If you want Bul back though, and you said you
> wanted a gain this year, then I could probably support you in
> from Rum. That should keep you from actually attacking Rum
> too hard too which would be a bonus.
I will think about it.
> In return I'd have to ask you to cut Aeg support so I could
> get back into Con. And ideally leave Gal too.
Well you can't have everything.
> Of course, we could still turn the tables on him if we
> can get Gal emptied and then you could help France in
> Italy and me with Germany instead.
I recall trying to attack Germany before. Look where that got me. I'm
not going to make the same mistake twice.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 23 20:59:57 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
>Message from France to Turkey in'gutsy':
>
> > I could actually end up with
> > a build if things fall my way. ;^}
>
>You can always dream. :-)
Would it be a dream, or a nightmare??? I'm already
fighting for my life in some other games; I'm not
sure I want to add another. 8-) (Of course, if I
do get the chance, I will give it my best shot.)
E.
From - Tue Oct 23 21:00:02 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> > In return I'd have to ask you to cut Aeg support so I could
> > get back into Con. And ideally leave Gal too.
>
> Well you can't have everything.
If my intentions were harmfull then I could force you out of
Gal this year. I'm not saying I will do that, I almost cetainly
won't, it just seems to me that DMZing the center would be better
than swapping it between us every year or so, we could both begin
to move the armies elsewhere. A War, for instance, would have
ideally moved up to Lvn this spring so I could force StP in the fall
but with you in Gal that was impossible.
> I recall trying to attack Germany before. Look where that got me. I'm
> not going to make the same mistake twice.
Yeah, well, I've learned a few things about Raine since
then - things that you have since said you could have
told me before hand so I know you realize what a bad ally
Raine is as well. Unless your aims are exactly the same
as his I suppose because he won't give an inch at all,
even if you resort to blackmail and force like I did.
I was mostly thinking of you going after Italy rather than Germany
anyway to be honest, just a unit or two to help out in Germany.
If I've screwed up all chance of cooperation by abusing your
trust though, I understand.
Adam........
From - Tue Oct 23 21:00:03 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi,
> I'm guessing France will go for Italy.
I'd definitely like to see it. I don't think Rod is in a position to stab
me and the press he's been sending hasn't rasied any red flags. So, I'm
hopeful.
I think I'll get a build this year, Rod and Raine will both get two, and
you'll get one. That means next year will be a pivotal one for all four of
us. And, it looks like Rod will have to make the first decision. You and I
can take a couple of Russian centers and Raine can still pick up Ankara, but
Rod will have nowhere to go except through me or into Raine.
I've never seen anyone play a "wait-and-see" style France; delay just helps
Germany and Italy. I don't think he'll do anything pre-emptive, but I can
easily imagine F Mar during the builds. We'll see.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 23 21:00:05 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> I think dislodging Ska was a good call. It puts you
> in excellent position to take Nwy next Spring.
Thanks, I agree. My units are pretty much right where I want them right
about now. Maybe Mun - Sil would have been a good move last turn, but the
bounce worked out well.
> Italy getting two builds was not what I wanted to see.
Yes, Austria and Italy cooperated *very* well last turn; they must have done
a fair bit of talking to work that out. Keith has been saying for a couple
turns now that Raine will soon have two fleets available to move your way.
I thought he was just rattling my cage, prodding me into a stab, but he
might have been telling the truth.
And, they still have Rum and Ank to divy up; I see them working towards a
7-7 split with Raine getting Ank and Keith getting Bul/Rum. That's a very
workable AI border.
> It might help if you distract IA with Mun-Tyl,
> but I suppose that could be risky for you.
This turn, that's out, but if you start working on Raine, I would certainly
reconsider.
> I think your choices are to either stab Russia or
> assist him against Austria.
I'm going to need some help thinking this one through. Adam promised me
Sweden last year so I don't feel guilty taking it, but come spring I'll have
a tricky decision to make. On the one hand, I have no problem letting him
keep Norway while he retakes St Pete because he can slow down Keith. But,
on the other hand, I'd much rather have a German army in Berlin moving to
Prussia.
I have a couple of other issues rattling around in my head; I'll write more
when I have the chance. Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 23 21:00:06 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> Yes, Austria and Italy cooperated *very* well last turn
I agree. R vs A was nice and stagnant, but I fear that active assistance from Italy
makes Keith dangerous.
> > It might help if you distract IA with Mun-Tyl
>
> This turn, that's out, but if you start working on Raine, I would certainly
> reconsider.
I intend to hit Raine, but given his two builds, it would be foolish for me to commit
everything against him without your assistance. If you're willing to do Mun-Tyl this
turn then I can commit to MAO-Wes, Eng-MAO, B F Mar. If Mun-Tyl is completely out
of the question, that's fine, but if we discuss your concerns then maybe we can find
a solution.
> On the one hand, I have no problem letting him
> keep Norway while he retakes St Pete because he can slow down Keith.
Plus you can take Nwy any time you want, so there's no hurry.
> But, on the other hand, I'd much rather have a German army in Berlin moving to Prussia.
Why not armies in Tyl and Boh? >:-} I concede that Pru/Sil is safer, but I'm not sure
that taking War will be quick and easy.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 23 21:00:08 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I am sorry. I can admit it, I made a mistake. A Huge mistake.
Your last note to me left me with the idea of non-cooperative Russia.
I was waiting for you and Eric to attack me. So I took the Austrian offer
which turned out to be mistake. I feel bad now. I know it is going to be
hard to get you to trust me but still I am going to try.
Current situation is heading towards FGA 3-way. I am not satisfied with
that. FG is a solid alliance. If I ally with Austria it means the end of
TER and then I am in the middle and I will be knocked out. So I have a
clear motivation to prevent FG & AI to be the four last countries on
board. I cannot do much to FG but I can avoid AI.
Now I need to win your trust back (I do not know if you have trusted me at
all but anyway) and after how I moved I am facing a difficult task.
I am sure that Keith is telling me the truth of his intentions now. I have
not attack him when I had the chance so he trusts me. That is a big
advantage. That could be used against him. He doesn't tell all his
intentions but he tells something and so far he has told the truth.
So what should we do (I know you are not trusting me at the moment but I
hope the map shows that we are both fading away if we do not work
together, I also know that you have been telling the same for a long time
and I can see that it is now or never) ?
-You need Bul&Con
-I need builds to go against France.
-in north
--you need to minimize the lost center count. You are losing at least one
center there.
-in south
--we need to work it out so that you don't lose a center to me.
--Turkey should not get a center, we need them desperately.
How to do it?
Getting former Turkish SC's to us:
-I need to move something to Smyrna so that Eric won't get there.
-Ankara should be occupied after the fall moves.
Maximising your SC count:
-I will move out of Con to Smy. Con remains yours.
-I will move out of Bul to Gre. Bul remains yours if I can convince Keith
not to attack Bul.
-You need to hold Rumania.
What moves we need?
- I need to support myself to Smyrna (the only way to get there for sure),
this means Con is yours for sure
- I need to support myself from Bul(sc) to Greece. I need to get Keith
behind this somehow. I need to convince him to give me Greece, we have
already talked about it. I have talked of destroying his fleet and he has
agreed to do it in near future.
- You need to support Rumania from Bla and Ukr.
- You need to hold in Ankara.
So the moves:
Italy Con-Smy
Aeg S Con-Smy
Bul(sc)-Gre
Ion s Bul(sc)-Gre
Russia Ank hold
Rum hold
Ukr s Rum
Bla s Rum
Other alternative (if I can convince Keith to move like I want)
Austria Ser-Rum
Gal S Ser-Rum
Bud S Ser-Rum
Alb-Ser
Gre h
Russia Same as above except
War S Ukr-Gal
Ukr-Gal
I am not sure how you react to this plan. First thing you think of is that
I am fooling you. That is what I would think if I where you. Let's look
the outcom of this if everything goes like I told above. I cannot predict
the north but I hope you can give me a clue.
You would gain Ankara. I would gain Greece. Austria would lose Greece.
I get a build and your situations depends on the northern outcome.
Italy +1
Austria -1
Russia 0 (assumed you lose one in north)
I know this is highly specultative but this is the best I can imagine.
Feel free to ask me questions of this. I am willing to do much to get you
behind this. Also if you can figure out some better solution to make IR
stronger to face FG just tell me about it. I don't want to force you do
anything, I want us to co-operate.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 23 21:00:10 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
I don't know if I am satisfied of the results. FG will eliminate E and
then France is free to attack me. France alreay told me that if I don't
co-operate with Russia he comes after me and does not go against G. I have
no reason to believe that he is not honest. I need to build fleets now and
I need more than one. So I am going to ask you to let me have Greece now.
> That worked well. I didn't expect Russia to move Con-Ank, though. The
> next move could be a bit tricky. Turkey will undoubtedly move Syr-Smy.
> Russia has to decide whether to attack Con or Bul. Assuming you want to
> bounce Turkey in Smy, we should decide which one to protect.
>
> I'd look at something like
>
> Con-Smy, Bul-Con, Aeg S Bul-Con
>
> I'll attack Rumania.
>
> What do you think?
I wouldn't do it that way. Russia cannot move Rum-Bul otherwise he will
lose Rum for sure. I expect him to support Rumania and I expect him to
work hard to get me out of Con (to Smy) so that Con would stay his. He
don't want to see bounce in Smyrna he wants to see bounce in Con so that
Con is still his. But you are right fall moves will be tricky.
> On another note, it is difficult to tell what is going on with France and
> Germany. If I had to guess, I would say that France would move Mid-Wes.
> He's not really poised to attack Germany. What is he telling you?
I don't think it is that difficult. France will move Mid-Wes. He is
telling me that I sealed my destiny by not attacking you. He expected me
to support myself to Greece. He also wanted me to help Russia so that
Russia is strong enough to attack Germany. Now there ain't going to be FR
against G.
I think now would be a good time to get rid of your fleet:
Something like this
Austria
Ser-Bul
Gre S Ser-Bul (or hold if you prefer)
Alb-Ser
Italy
Ion S Bul(sc)-Gre
Bul(sc)-Gre
Aeg s Con
Con S Ser-Bul
I might lose Smy. I am not sure of it. RT has co-operated well and they
might try to outguess me i.e. Bla S Ank-Con, Ank-Con, Syr hold
(this would be ideal). Still, if I lose Smy I would get it back next
year. Also the main point is to minimize Russia. Russia would lose Bul and
Con (and Rumania if he is careless). You should then dispand your fleet
and rebuild is as army, you have two open home SCs.
We are facing a tricky moves and we could surprise others with these
moves. BTW, there is no need for you to move back to Trieste now :-)
I am considering to move back to Venice 'cause I need to prepare against
France.
Does this make any sense to you?
Raine
From - Tue Oct 23 21:00:12 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I am sorry. I can admit it, I made a mistake. A Huge mistake.
Well, personally I'd say not as bad a mistake as waiting for
two years from the time it was ripe to attack Austria but
there you go.
> Your last note to me left me with the idea of non-cooperative Russia.
Did you not get the last one I wrote again? I thought the last
one said I'd do as you asked but I didn't much like it.
> I know it is going to be
> hard to get you to trust me but still I am going to try.
Well, so long as we make sensible moves I don't think there
should be a great deal of need for all that much trust.
> Current situation is heading towards FGA 3-way. I am not satisfied with
> that. FG is a solid alliance. If I ally with Austria it means the end of
> TER and then I am in the middle and I will be knocked out. So I have a
> clear motivation to prevent FG & AI to be the four last countries on
> board. I cannot do much to FG but I can avoid AI.
I'm not that sure that FG are all that strong, though I have no
doubt that your moves last spring pushed them closer together.
France and I were talking about maybe attacking Germany together
next year if we could get you to join in the Austrian attack so
I would have a unit or two free in the north. Now France is
wondering what he should do and thinking about going for
Italy instead.
> I am sure that Keith is telling me the truth of his intentions now.
Yeah, if we compare notes on what Keith is saying it will
definately increase the odds on us finding some winning moves.
Currently I've asked him if he'd like me to support him into
Bul from Rum. The idea being that if he wants Rum's support
he can't cut it which means he can't attack it. He said
he'd think about it in the minimal way Keith tends to talk.
I also pointed out that I could take Gal anyway now so
perhaps if he moved out voluntarily we could DMZ the
province and free us both up. He wasn't even keen on
thinking about that.
> I have not attack him when I had the chance so he trusts me.
This is what he said to me before the moves, that he would help
Italy. I didn't think he meant in quite this forward a manner
though.
> -You need Bul&Con
Need is extreme, I need one of Bul and Con and having both would
be a big help but I was expecting a disband this year anyway. It
wasn't going to hurt all that much since alb was destroyed whatever
I did. I intend to keep Ank now so just one of Bul or con will
stop me having to remove a unit in the adjustments. Much more
than needing that unit I needed you to attack Austria. Still
do basically.
> -I need builds to go against France.
There's a good chance he'll come your way now, yeah.
> --you need to minimize the lost center count. You are losing at least one
> center there.
Sweeden will be German. The only question is whether I want to
keep Nwy or take StP basically. I can choose which I need more.
> --we need to work it out so that you don't lose a center to me.
> --Turkey should not get a center, we need them desperately.
Not much point in trying to rescue Eric now, though I still think
it would have been nice to have him at three and Austria at three
by this stage.
> -I need to move something to Smyrna so that Eric won't get there.
Yep.
> -Ankara should be occupied after the fall moves.
I'm not moving from Ank and nobody can force me out so it will be.
> -I will move out of Con to Smy. Con remains yours.
Very generous, I'm sure you'll understand if I force the
issue rather than just trusting you to move won't you?
> -I will move out of Bul to Gre. Bul remains yours if I can convince Keith
> not to attack Bul.
Bul - Gre looks like 3 on 3 to me, not neccasarily going to actually work.
Besides, you'd be a LOT better off convoying Apu - Ion - Gre than
taking it with a fleet.
> -You need to hold Rumania.
Ideally. F Bla will probably have better things to do than
support A Rum though so the main things keeping Rum safe
are Keith's desire to keep Gal Austrian and my offer to
use it to support him into Bul.
> - I need to support myself to Smyrna (the only way to get there for sure),
> this means Con is yours for sure
Well, assuming you actually do that. You don't need to get into
Smy really of course a bounce there with Eric would be plenty
to keep it green.
> - I need to support myself from Bul(sc) to Greece. I need to get Keith
> behind this somehow. I need to convince him to give me Greece, we have
> already talked about it. I have talked of destroying his fleet and he has
> agreed to do it in near future.
Well, getting him to agree to let you into Gre will be good,
but he's held it for so long I can't imagine him really
wanting to do that now. I guess if you offer him Bul
he may do.
> - You need to support Rumania from Bla and Ukr.
It would be useful to be able to but I'm afraid that I
may need F Bla to ensure I get Con or Bul back.
> - You need to hold in Ankara.
I will do that. Well, support something or hold, whatever.
> Russia Ank hold
> Rum hold
> Ukr s Rum
> Bla s Rum
I'm afraid that not only can I not trust you to move out
of Con or Bul, you can't even guarentee you'd get out of
Bul if you tried. Almost no chance of it if you're
also supporting into Smy. I'm going to have to put Bla
into Con or Bul I'm afraid.
> War S Ukr-Gal
> Ukr-Gal
I may be talked into taking Gal, but at the moment I'd
sooner leave it in the hope that Austria will be nice
to me.
> I cannot predict the north but I hope you can give me a clue.
I'll tell you exactly what the SC counts will be in Scandanavia
and StP anyway. I'll have one, England will have one and
Germany will have one (two if you include Denmark)
The exact positions of the units is yet to be determined but
yes, I'll be loosing a supply center up there.
> I know this is highly specultative but this is the best I can imagine.
I'd be reluctant to try your suggested moves even if you'd
been a perfect puppet ally the whole game to be honest. As
I said, the chances of you actually getting Gre with those
moves are slim at best. What else is A Alb going to do
but support Gre?
> Also if you can figure out some better solution to make IR
> stronger to face FG just tell me about it. I don't want to force you do
> anything, I want us to co-operate.
Well, I'd throw everything at Gre as you suggested, but I'd
use A Apu convoyed over Ion to get to it. A full blown attack
on Gre (which still might fail now) only leaves one of your
units to worry about at all: A Con.
Moving it to Smy will probably bounce with Eric. If I've
just pushed F Ank S F Bla into Con then it will be
destroyed and can be rebuilt at home to defend against
France or take advantage of Austria's open side.
You'd still have F Aeg to defend Smy against me if
you thought that was needed and you'd have taken builds
from Gre and/or Bul.
I'd have to take a supply center loss, but this isn't
as bad as it normally feels, A Alb was destroyed already
so it just means no build - not an actual disband. Besides,
that would be just six centers each then anyway which
is what you wanted before.
You would owe me a center though, either Bul or Smy, I'm
not that bothered which would switch to me as you made
the first gain in Austria (Probably Tri I guess).
This plan requires less trust, even though it also leaves
me a center down, and it's at least as efficent against
Austria and/or France. Actually, there's a chance you'd
get seven centers and three builds this year! If three
builds (one from the destroyed A Con) isn't enough to
fight France then I don't know what is.
But the more we talk to Austria and the more we know
of his plans the better we can refine ours anwyay,
so let's keep the discussion open.
Adam............
From - Tue Oct 23 21:00:16 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> If you're willing to do Mun-Tyl this turn then I can
> commit to MAO-Wes, Eng-MAO, B F Mar.
Really? That's a very enticing offer; perhaps my response was a bit of a
knee-jerk reaction.
Let's talk more about what this would mean. I have a couple of concerns,
but the more I think about them the less they bother me; talking things
through should take care of them entirely.
My primary concern is that Mun - Tyr this fall just about guarantees Army
builds in Ven and Tri (assuming Keith takes Rum this fall) thereby
solidifying AI. If I wait a season, their builds might be away from Ven/Tri
(A Vie, A Rom, F Nap, something like that) or they might even be fleets.
Plus, I would have one more season to work the press.
I'm also a little worried about a stab from you, but I don't think that's
going to happen.
Those things said, I like your idea. It allows me to support Adam, it gives
me a build now (assuming Swe works out), and it holds two centers in reserve
(Nwy and StPete).
> I concede that Pru/Sil is safer, but I'm not sure
> that taking War will be quick and easy.
Yea, but I'm not too concerned about safe, nor am I worried that much about
quick centers. I'm just looking for a way to keep the east unresolved while
we establish a manageable border.
> Why not armies in Tyl and Boh? >:-}
That's a very good idea; the more I think about it the better it sounds.
Okay, here's one of the things that was rattling around in my head last
letter:
How about next spring, I convoy back to Belgium and move Holland to Kiel?
You can take Edi and establish your line with armies in Edi and Lon while I
have a lone army in Belgium. I see that as the start of the wide DMZ you
suggested a couple of letters back. As long as you we never have more than
one unit against the other's border centers, I'm happy.
Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 23 21:00:18 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> > I'm hoping to find something
> > a little more constructive than this to be honest.
>
> That's a good idea, but you'll need somebody (other than just me) on your side.
I don't know how genuine he is yet but Raine has written
and he say's he's sorry, he wants to defend against France
and here's a plan to ensure I don't disband at all this
year. His plan is insane and amounts to me standing still
while he walks away from my centers so obviously we
have some talking to do but that's a good sign I guess.
I've sent a plan back which leaves me a center down but he
can't screw it up so easily.
Keith's send two notes already too which is downright
chatty for him. Admitedly one basically just said
"I'll think about it" but I have things to offer
both him and Raine and they both seem to be listening
so we'll see how it goes.
> > I'd like to, for instance, take Con or Bul back and KEEP Ank.
>
> That would be ideal - if you can pull it off.
I think it's possible, the only question being how safe it'd
leave Rum. There's a few diplomatic ways to keep Rum safe,
offer to use it to support Keith into Bul for instance. If
he needs the support then he can't attack the unit. He's
fairly keen on keeping Gal too and he can't guarentee that
if he attacks Rum either.
> Swe is lost, but you do have the option of trading Nwy for StP.
> If I were in your shoes, I think I'd order Mos S Nwy-StP.
Both centers have their merits, it's a question of decding
between them. Norway would be harder to regain I think
but StP easier to defend. Depends on a lot of factors.
> I think you made the right decision. Keith "considering"
> to help you is meaningless. Either he agrees to help you
> if you back off or he doesn't.
I'm sure I did too, I'm pretty sure that Raine's note
begging forgiveness was a confidence trick, unless
somone's been sending him sacry letters saying you're
on your way to attack him and I can't think of
anyone other than me who'd benifit from that. I may
have reinforced the rumours a little in my reply
just now but I didn't start 'em.
> I agree with your assessment of the risks, but it's probably
> the most attractive option.
Risks? Oh, that thing about the three of us all
being across the stalemate line. Could be seen as
a risk I guess, to me it also sounds like a roughly
one in three chance at a solo! Games are more exiting
when they end in a solo-grab than a 3 way draw anyway
regardless of the actuall result.
> I have suggested to Steve that he move to Tyl, and
> I'll let you know what I hear from him.
I think he said he'd be away for a couple of days, or
burried in work or something at least. I assume your
moves to Bur were arranged last year, he might be
reluctant to go for Tyr if that bounce wasn't deliberate.
Adam........
From - Tue Oct 23 21:00:19 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I don't know if I am satisfied of the results. FG will eliminate E and
> then France is free to attack me. France alreay told me that if I don't
> co-operate with Russia he comes after me and does not go against G. I have
> no reason to believe that he is not honest. I need to build fleets now and
> I need more than one. So I am going to ask you to let me have Greece now.
Germany tells me that France is going to get two builds. You are right
to be concerned. However, I think you can get two builds as well. Also,
I can tell you I have been communicating with Germany for a few years
now, and from what I can tell, he is hoping that France will attack you,
which will leave France open to Germany. If Germany is going to have any
chance to win the game, he is going to have to defeat France.
I am curious as to your sudden sense of urgency. Just last year when I
was recommending to you to move Ven-Pie and Ion-Tun to be able to bounce
France from Wes, you were quite certain that France was not planning to
attack you. Have you received some new information that has changed your
mind?
> I wouldn't do it that way. Russia cannot move Rum-Bul otherwise he will
> lose Rum for sure. I expect him to support Rumania and I expect him to
> work hard to get me out of Con (to Smy) so that Con would stay his. He
> don't want to see bounce in Smyrna he wants to see bounce in Con so that
> Con is still his. But you are right fall moves will be tricky.
If you are not worried about Russia moving Rum-Bul, then all you have to
do is support Con with Bul and move Aeg-Smy. I will cut Rum's support.
This way, you are guaranteed to get Con and Bul while keeping Smy. There
is no need for you to take Greece.
> I think now would be a good time to get rid of your fleet:
> Something like this
> Austria
> Ser-Bul
> Gre S Ser-Bul (or hold if you prefer)
> Alb-Ser
> Italy
> Ion S Bul(sc)-Gre
> Bul(sc)-Gre
> Aeg s Con
> Con S Ser-Bul
>
> I might lose Smy. I am not sure of it. RT has co-operated well and they
> might try to outguess me i.e. Bla S Ank-Con, Ank-Con, Syr hold
> (this would be ideal). Still, if I lose Smy I would get it back next
> year. Also the main point is to minimize Russia. Russia would lose Bul and
> Con (and Rumania if he is careless). You should then dispand your fleet
> and rebuild is as army, you have two open home SCs.
There is a 100% probability that Turkey will move Syr-Smy. It is his
only chance of survival. Plus, Russia just screwed him by moving Con-Ank
instead of Con-Smy like Turkey expected. Turkey means nonthing now, and
Russia is not about to do him any favors.
If you take Greece and support on holding, you are going to only get one
build, and I will probably get one (if you don't think Russia will attack
Bul).
Don't wory about Russia. He is on a fast decline. He is going to lose
Sweden (this was already arranged with Germany), plus a net of at least
one more (likely two). The Turkish army won't be around after this turn,
and Russia won't be able to threaten the Turkish centers.
Also, if you think that France is going to move Mid-Wes and Eng-Mid, you
had metter move Ion-Tun. Otherwise, you will lose Tunis next year, even
if you go get two builds.
Also, consider for a moment why France would send you such a threatening
message. He is trying to scare you into attacking me now. He knows that
if we stick together, there is nothing he will be able to do to you, and
he will be faced by you and Germany with nowhere to go. This puts
Germany in a strong position. France needs you to be weak, and he wants
Russia to be strong. But, if we remain allied, Russia will be weak, and
you will be strong, exactly what France does not want.
If you move Ion-Tun and Apu-Ven now, there is absolutely nothing that
France can do to hurt you without his investing 4 units plus getting
Germany to move to Tyrolia (which I will not allow). In the Winter, you
will build at least one fleet no matter what happens, and it is extremely
likely that you will build two. You can support one fleet to Tys and
move the other to Ion (or Aeg-Ion in the worst case that you get only one
build). Also, you will move Ven-Pie. If you really wanted to be sure
that France could not break through, you could move Rom-us, Nap-Tys and
Aeg-Ion.
But this won't be necessary. In order for France to present a credible
threat to you, he needs to move Mid-Wes, Eng-Mid and build F Mar. He
will get two builds, from London and Liverpool. In the Spring he can
order Mid-Naf, Wes S Mid-Naf, Mar-Lyo and Gas-Mar. He will also probably
build another army. But, now if he has moved into this attack position,
one that you can defend against with little problem, France will have
created himself to be a tempting target for Germany. Germany is not
going to attack Russia or France this turn, so that next turn, he has the
option of attacking whomever he wants while leaving his other front
peaceful. He could attack France, and Russia would not attack Germany
(Russia will have to deal with me). Or he could attack Russia, and
France will leave him alone.
France knows that you are going to get two builds. This is what concerns
him. It means that he won't have any success in attacking you, and this
creates problems between him and Germany. If you had attacked Greece
like France wanted, you would have only gotten one build, and you would
be occupied by a war with me. This would leave France in the power
position, not Germany. He could decide to attack you, and you would be
caught between France and Austria. Or, he could attack Germany, who
woulc be caught between France and Russia (Russia would be in a good
position because you and I would be at war).
So France is just upset that he is in a bad position now, and he is going
to do all he can diplomatically to try to reverse that. Getting you to
attack Greece is one thing he could do. It would leave Russia in a
better position, and it would likely mean that you would only get one
build, and it would mean that your fleet in the Ionian Sea would not be
moving to Tunis.
There is no reason to listen to France. He does not have your best
interests in mind. He has France's best interests in mind.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 23 21:00:23 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
LOL. Yep, that was a tap. Sorry if it took you by surprise. :)
Yes, I will kick Brent out of Sweden, but I'm still quite willing to let you
keep both Norway and St Pete. Really, I am.
You probably won't get both this year, but I will definitely help you out
next year. If you order nwy - stp with support from Moscow this fall, Brent
will retreat Swe to Nwy and you can use Moscow in the south next year. I'm
quite willing to support StP back into Norway in '04. That gives us a very
workable border.
Also, that would eliminate Brent, give us a 2-2 split, and give you 6+
centers (depending on how Rum works out) to work on Keith. It would also
free me up in the west.
This turn, I'm ordering yor - edi and nth s yor - edi just so you know. Hol
and Mun are still undecided. Any thoughts?
Write when you can. Thanks.
- Steve
P.S. Oh yeah, other things. Yes, the Bur bounce was planned, Rod might
move into the Med, and if I do move east, it won't be into you. That last
one is a promise. :)
P.P.S. Regarding Rum, your best move might be rum - gal with support from
War and Ukr. I know it's a guessing game, but if I were Keith, I would
trust Raine and order a 3-on-1 attack on Rumania. Raine will probably hold
Con/Bul and bounce in Smyrna. My two cents.
From - Tue Oct 23 21:00:25 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> > If you're willing to do Mun-Tyl this turn then I can
> > commit to MAO-Wes, Eng-MAO, B F Mar.
>
> Really?
Sure. I don't want to just sit here and twiddle my thumbs, but neither do I want
to attack Raine when nobody is pressuring him from the north or east. Dividing his
attention gives my attack on him a chance to succeed, and if there's a successful
campaign before me, I'm ready to tackle it.
> I have a couple of concerns,
> but the more I think about them the less they bother me; talking things
> through should take care of them entirely.
Yes, I'm confident that we can arrive at a plan that satisfies us both. :-)
> My primary concern is that Mun - Tyr this fall just about guarantees Army
> builds in Ven and Tri (assuming Keith takes Rum this fall) thereby
> solidifying AI.
I suspect their alliance is already solid.
> If I wait a season, their builds might be away from Ven/Tri
> (A Vie, A Rom, F Nap, something like that) or they might even be fleets.
Two Italian fleets is exactly what I do NOT want to see. I *want* them to build in
response to your army in Tyl. Sure, they would initially halt your progress, but I
think your own position is strong enough that you wouldn't really need to worry about
retribution. And if I'm pressing forward in the Med and Russia is cooperating with
you, AI lacks the resources to really counter your southern excursion.
> Plus, I would have one more season to work the press.
That's true, but I think we're at the point where action is more important than talk.
;-)
> I'm also a little worried about a stab from you, but I don't think that's
> going to happen.
Each of us has vulnerabilities. You could stab me as well, but we both have greater
opportunities elsewhere.
> Those things said, I like your idea. It allows me to support Adam, it gives
> me a build now (assuming Swe works out), and it holds two centers in reserve
> (Nwy and StPete).
It also gives you an excellent position for influencing the A/R struggle. You can
help Adam keep Keith in check, and when Russia gets out of line you can snag Nwy/StP.
With some luck and good planning, you might have armies in Pru/Sil/Boh/Tyl with
neither A nor R dominant in a few years. :-)
> How about next spring, I convoy back to Belgium and move Holland to Kiel?
> You can take Edi and establish your line with armies in Edi and Lon while I
> have a lone army in Belgium.
That sounds good, though if someday you have permanent garrisons in both Bel and Mun
then I'll want to post a sentry in Bur. But if Mun-Tyl now and (new army) Mun-Boh
in the Spring, I'm good with DMZs in Pic/Bur/Ruh and your army in Bel. Is that what
you were thinking?
Rod
From - Tue Oct 23 21:00:26 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> I don't know how genuine he is yet but Raine has written
> and he say's he's sorry, he wants to defend against France
> and here's a plan to ensure I don't disband at all this
> year.
If he's really worried about me, the best thing for him is to hold onto your centers
and grab some more. OTOH, it seems his thinking has been backward all this time, so
maybe he really does believe that not growing is the best way to defend.
> I have things to offer
> both him and Raine and they both seem to be listening
> so we'll see how it goes.
Obviously you have to side with whoever is going to help you, but I hope you'll keep
me in the loop so that I can determine the extent of my own involvement. Which way
you go has a big influence on whether my next target should be Germany or Italy.
Here is my thinking: If you can talk Raine out of getting two builds this year, and
Germany is going to help you against Austria, it's a good opportunity for me to move
into the Med. OTOH, if you can secure peace with Austria and commit forces against
Germany, you and I can work on Germany and try to foment war between Austria and Italy.
> unless somone's been sending him scary letters saying you're
> on your way to attack him and I can't think of
> anyone other than me who'd benifit from that.
Every letter that I have received from Keith has had some sort of insinuation that
somebody is about to attack me, so I think it's very likely that he's been spooking
Raine. If Keith has Raine under his spell, that would explain a lot, eh?
> to me it also sounds like a roughly
> one in three chance at a solo!
That does sound like fun! :-)
> > I have suggested to Steve that he move to Tyl, and
> > I'll let you know what I hear from him.
>
> I think he said he'd be away for a couple of days, or
> burried in work or something at least.
He could be buried in work, but I did receive a reply from him. He finds the idea
of advancing to Tyl intriguing, but he has not yet made a commitment.
> I assume your moves to Bur were arranged last year
Yes.
Rod
From - Wed Oct 24 20:17:18 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: S1904R Wed Oct 24 2001 19:01:34 +1300
Retreat orders for Spring of 1904. (gutsy.013)
England: Fleet Skagerrak -> Sweden.
Russia: Fleet Bulgaria (east coast) -> Black Sea.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Movement for Fall of 1904.
The deadline for orders will be Sat Oct 27 2001 20:00:00 +1300.
