Spring 1903
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From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:39 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
[Germany: Builds a fleet in Kiel.]
What?! You talk about disbanding a fleet, and then build a third one?
And why did you choose not to discuss it with me at all? I hope this is not
the declaration of war against England that it certainly appears to be.
Brent
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:40 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Even if my build didn't reassure you that I'm moving against Germany, his
build should. There's no reason for him to be building a third fleet at
this point except that he wants to come after England. That leaves you with
the choice of whether you want to help him or help me. I hope all my talk
with you, even when we weren't in the best of positions, is now ready to pay
off. With three fleets on his coast, and his three armies all bunched up,
it should be possible to disband the armies early on and leave him with no
way to defend himself. Here's my first impression moves for the Spring:
StP-Nwy
Edi - Nth - Bel
ENG S NTH
Pic S Edi - Bel
Spa - Gas
Mar - Bur
With North Sea in obvious danger, it seems imperative that we get another
army on the continent while we still can. As I most East, you would of
course be able to pick up Belgium. Let me know your thoughts.
Brent
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:42 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
> Yes you've lost a center. But
> you've got plenty more in your sights, and now you've gained someone that
> knows they can trust you because you can't stab them.
Hummm. I wonder how you'd have reacted if France had
asked you to take the loss of London quite to casually?
> This really wasn't meant to be an all-out declaration of war.
Yeah, I realize that. It doesn't make me happy at all, but
since there's nothing I can really do about it right now
all I can do is ask nicely for you to leave. Please.
> right now I'm not sure who the Eastern alliance entails.
Welcome to the world of aliances that shift so fast they
blur. My ally is whoever has a goal which can share a
common method to mine. Right now that's mostly Raine,
but I'm unhappy at his absolute and immoveable insistance
that priority number one, for now and until it's complete,
is to eliminate Eric. I don't really play that elimination
game, I'd be happiest if there were seven powers on the
board right up until I got eighteen centers - obviously
an elimination is sometimes the best way to get your
next supply center but Raine seems willing to give up
SC's in order to eliminate Eric. Odd.
> You've got enough enemies at this point, and I've got enough other
> targets. If you can agree to let St. Pete's go for now, I think
> we can find ways to help each other out. What do you think?
I doubt I have a choice for now. My next build will be in Mos
and it'll come up towards StP to drive you out again, unless
it turns out that I need it elsewhere for a while - which is
fairly probable.
It seems a strange way to make me leave StP, and hence Scandanavia
open - forcing me to retake and then defend it - but I guess it takes
all sorts. Certainly you can't complain now if A StP and F Swe
sit around watching the north of my country from then until
the end of time.
Fleet Liverpool was encouraging anyway, sounds like you intend
to go after France again. Not a great deal I can do to help
that - I don't think Raine intends to move West, at least until
Eric is eliminated - and I'm in no rush to assure that. I
do intend to leave Steve alone though, so I guess that might
be a help of some kind.
Adam.........
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:43 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Master in 'gutsy':
Hi Roger,
Here comes a short note from Italian perspective.
EoY 1902
Spring:
-------
-Before the moves I wasn't sure of RAI.
-I planned to attack France with Steve (well, not real attack but
I would help with one army anyway). I hoped for RAI. I thought RAI
won't work. Why would Austria want to be in RAI?
-After the moves I saw that Steve was with me AND RAI seems to work!
Too bad that GI attack against F and RAI cannot work at the same time.
-I made risky moves in spring by Ion-Aeg.
Fall:
-----
-Too little diplomacy from me before the moves.
-I knew that RAI is gone. I'll try to be friend to both A&R.
-Hopefully end of EFG too (if there ever was one).
-I learned from Eric and Steve how to react if game isn't going your way.
I think I would lost my temper more than those gentlemen.
-I made risky moves in fall. I wasn't sure of Keith moves. The bounce in
Aeg was more my fault than Keith's.
-I wanted peace with Rod. Amazing move from London. I have no idea what is
going on in west :-)
Winter:
-------
-Con is vulnerable indeed.
-EG alliance ?! English built fleet to Lvp and army to Edi. That army is
heading to Nwy I guess.
-Steve built fleet that is good. AG should make peace now.
Raine
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:45 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Well, Fleet Kiel certainly got Brent fired up. :)
We have a couple of days to talk things out. Write when you can.
Offhand, I'm thinking something like:
hol - nth
den s hol - nth
kie - hel
I'd probably support Belgium in place and cover Munich (not that I expect
any trouble from Keith).
Lot's of ways to do this. Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:46 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> If you agree to leave Serbia peacefully, then there will no hard
> feelings.
I'm tempted to start lying and agreeing to do this in the
hope it will speed up taking more of your SC's. I'll respect
the fact you wouldn't fall for it anyway and say that I
don't think I can do that right now I'm afraid.
> I am just not quite sure I understand your reasoning. Your
> units are spread out,
I'm not in the position I'd hoped for, certainly. And Raine
isn't quite as on board in the idea of using you for target
practice as I'd like. The same problem applies there as
did in making him turn to France - he's determined to
eliminate Eric first at all costs.
> and you seem to be making enemies of a number of your neighbors.
> How many enemies can you handle? I don't want to be one of them.
You see this is probably the crux, the nub. I don't really
think that 'enemies' is a very useful phrase in high level
diplomacy play, but since we're using it I should perhaps
point out that if turning on you has made the West break
up into three bickering parties again then I probably
have two less enemies now than I did after last spring.
In case there's something we can do to work it out,
thought I can't think of anything immediately, my reasoning
goes like this: The West are scared and united against
us, fighting through Germany will take a while and Raine
isn't going to be going to France until Eric is dead.
Meanwhile you're more open than you'd like to be and
probably never will reveal a chance like it again.
Even if you did, I'd be involved in a war in Germany
with you and breaking that off would be akward. Since
Steve gave me a generous offer to forget all about Sil
if I moved on you, I tried to talk Raine into it.
He was unwilling, insisting that Eric Must Die first. He
says that a lot. In the end I was convinced that I didn't
really need his help, or more accurately that once Eric
was dead it would come anyway since your centers are so
much closer than Frances.
I don't think I've seen a board quite as complicated looking
as the one I was staring at yesterday evening. I haven't
been able to look at it since the builds and proably won't
be able to (things are iffy for even writing this email
at work) until this evening. If I see something useful
I could do while exiting Ser then I'll mention it but
I think you'll understand now that I'm reluctant to
make enemies of Germany or England.
England taking StP was a pain - he promised he wouldn't
do that. Still, it's not an actual war between us, I'll
take it back later.
Adam.............
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:48 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Well, Raine basically said, in the end, that it's fine with
him if I go after Austria, but he'll still be attacking you
until you're eliminated, then he'll come help out in Austria.
As a result he wouldn't take Gre with Tun as I wanted but
insisted on taking Con.
That guy has such a one track mind, it's like his goal isn't
to win, but just to knock you out. What did you SAY to him?
Adam.........
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:50 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
Comparing this to France taking London is quite the stretch. It was
obvious to everyone that France took London as a springboard to further
conquest. There's no way I can turn a fleet in St. Petersburg into
anything more without bringing in a bunch more units. I'm not going to
completely forego dealing with the West just to send a bunch of units at
you.
And let me ask you this. If you retake St. Petersburg, and then have
to permanently station a unit there to defend it, are you really better
off for having retaken it. A center by itself is worthless, unless
you're at 17. Its the unit from that center that is useful, so if that
unit is permanently stationary, you didn't gain anything. Which is
exactly the reason that I'm willing to vacate St. Petersburg. Not with
a "Sorry, hope you take it back.", but with the understanding that you
and I can have a much better relationship and more efficient use of
units if its under my control.
As for my plans in the West, a 3rd fleet build from Germany can only
mean one thing as far as I'm concerned. You obviously noticed the same
thing since you have now decided to leave Germany alone. But if you
ever change your mind about that, you know how to find me.
Brent
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:51 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> I am surprised that Russia wouldn't contact you about attacking me.
> Without your help, he is not going to get very far. Has he mentioned
> anything now?
Adam asked if I was willing to stab Austria. He proposed moves where I
would have supported myself to Greece and he would have taken Bulgaria.
I told him that I'd want to continue RAI triple alliance. I told Adam that
I'd rather have Greece than Con but stabbing Austria would mean AT
alliance and I want Turkey to fade away as soon as possible. He did not
insist, so I thought he was not stabbing you. Adam's moves had made more
sense if I would have been stupid enough to join the stab.
> I don't have any immediate ideas. It is going to be more difficult to
> attack Turkey now. Turkey might even be able to kick you out of Con if
> you are not careful. It seems like you have a big claim now on all the
> Turkish centers, but it will take a larger investment now to get them.
I wasn't expecting this but I was right when I said that Eric is not dead
yet :-(
> I am happy to have no fleets eventually. You are still welcome to Greece
> once I can exchange it for a Russian center.
Ok.
> > Do you think you can make peace with Steve? That would be nice for both of
> > us. Why do you think Rod moved from London?
>
> I am sure that Germany will bear no ill will. He sees that I must retreat.
Good. How about Rod's move, any ideas?
> I don't require your assistance from Venice, only your neutrality (at
> worst). Can you just hold Venice, or do you have another plan?
No plans yet. I will listen to you.
Raine
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:53 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
>Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>Well, Raine basically said, in the end, that it's fine with
>him if I go after Austria, but he'll still be attacking you
>until you're eliminated, then he'll come help out in Austria.
>As a result he wouldn't take Gre with Tun as I wanted but
>insisted on taking Con.
>
>That guy has such a one track mind, it's like his goal isn't
>to win, but just to knock you out. What did you SAY to him?
Bla-Rum would have made much more sense, then. I
told Raine I liked the idea of an IT Alliance, but
was not going to attack Russia while he was opening
with a Lepanto. He obviously felt that I should
disregard if F Aeg, and attack you anyway. *shrug*
Perhaps he fears my JDPR. Could I interest you in
Ank S Bla - Con?
Eric the Desperate.
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:57 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> Well, Fleet Kiel certainly got Brent fired up. :)
Tell him you just wanted to guarantee your move to the Baltic with Den S Kie-Bal.
I doubt he'll believe it, but it's worth a shot. ;-)
> We have a couple of days to talk things out. Write when you can.
I will not be available over the weekend, but I don't think that will be a problem.
> Offhand, I'm thinking something like:
>
> hol - nth
> den s hol - nth
> kie - hel
I like it! As long as Russia doesn't tap Den, it gives you an excellent position.
England will still be a tough nut to crack, but I think our prospects are very good.
I'll contact Adam and see what his disposition is re F Swe.
> I'd probably support Belgium in place and cover Munich (not that I expect
> any trouble from Keith).
I don't anticipate any Austrian interference either, but I'd rather you do Ruh S Bur-Mun
for the Spring, just to be extra sure that you're out of my hair. You're welcome to do
Ruh S Bel in the Fall. If I stab you in the Spring, just go kamikaze on me and reclaim
it in the Fall. I'm sure Brent would be happy to see that.
Let's put the issue of Bel to rest: I'm interested in balanced growth for the FG alliance.
I granted you Bel because I anticipated having six centers after 1902 (Lon, France,
Iberia), and I wanted you to have six centers too. You are welcome to keep Bel as
long as you don't outgrow me by more than one center. When you are poised to take
your seventh and I'm still stuck on five, I'll expect you to willingly relinquish Bel
so we can stay even at six centers each.
Let's focus on mutual growth as FG vs E, and decide the fate of Bel diplomatically.
Rod
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:54 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Well, the talk of a united GEF fighting us
It looks like E/G are about to come to blows, which gives me a good opportunity to
pick sides.
What are your plans for your fleet in Swe? Knowing your disposition would help me
decide on my own course of action. Swe-Nwy seems like an obvious move. Or do you
have other plans?
> plus the fact I thought Austria would probably
> never leave himself as open as he was right then,
Yes, it was a good opportunity. Assistance from Italy would really help you take
advantage of it. I'll suggest that to Raine and see what he says.
Rod
From - Thu Oct 04 23:20:01 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
War is about to break out (again) in the west, so I intend to focus on making gains
versus E or G. I suppose that you will secure your holdings in Turkey.
What do you think of adding 'R'ussia to the 'R' alliance? He can help you in Turkey,
and his position in Austria will eventually give you the opportunity for gains there
as well. And if Russia grows, I can use him against E/G. As long as he does not
become a threat to us, I think it is in our best interests to see Russia do well.
Rod
From - Thu Oct 04 23:20:02 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> I'm tempted to start lying and agreeing to do this in the
> hope it will speed up taking more of your SC's. I'll respect
> the fact you wouldn't fall for it anyway and say that I
> don't think I can do that right now I'm afraid.
Oh, I'm not expecting you to leave peacefully. I am just saying that if
you surprise me and leave peacefully, then all will be well between us,
and I won't try to take any revenge. I really believe there are better
and more profitable things for us both to be doing than to attack each
other.
> I'm not in the position I'd hoped for, certainly. And Raine
> isn't quite as on board in the idea of using you for target
> practice as I'd like. The same problem applies there as
> did in making him turn to France - he's determined to
> eliminate Eric first at all costs.
I don't see that Turkey will be eliminated quickly now. Italy is going
to have to make a choice, if he hasn't already, whether to attack me or
not. If he doesn't help you, you might as well withdraw now and bargain
for a larger share than you would have gotten.
> You see this is probably the crux, the nub. I don't really
> think that 'enemies' is a very useful phrase in high level
> diplomacy play, but since we're using it I should perhaps
> point out that if turning on you has made the West break
> up into three bickering parties again then I probably
> have two less enemies now than I did after last spring.
The problem was, and this was I thought one of the main reasons why you
wanted to attack Germany, and why I agreed to help, that England and
Germany are very close. This was confirmed by the Spring moves, and we
were lucky to have had the opportunity against Germany that you so
carefully masterminded. Now that I am going to pull away from Germany,
it looks like France is left to dry. Look at England's builds. Germany
will get a part of this, but I think that England and Germany are more
likely to come against you than to attack each other.
> If I see something useful
> I could do while exiting Ser then I'll mention it but
> I think you'll understand now that I'm reluctant to
> make enemies of Germany or England.
You don't need to make enemies of them. They will come after you. Your
northern boundry is completely undefended. It is very easy for Germany
and England to take Sweden, and if Germany moves even one unit East (you
can bet that F Kie is going to the Baltic and not against England), you
are in quite a bit of trouble.
> England taking StP was a pain - he promised he wouldn't
> do that. Still, it's not an actual war between us, I'll
> take it back later.
Honestly I don't think you will ever get Stp back. When are you going to
do it? All your units are going to have to be used against me if you
want to get anything, even with Italy's help. The loss of Stp does not
hurt your southern efforts, but it does shut off your potential to build
northern fleets.
What are you going to do with your southern fleets? Attack me? They are
useless against me. What you should be doing is trying to take all the
Turkish centers for yourself and get your fleets through to the med. I
was just waiting for the chance to attack Italy. I should have done it
in the Spring, I suppose, but I thought there was a good plan against
Germany that would make Italy move west. Unfortunately he did not.
Austria
From - Thu Oct 04 23:20:08 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> I've been very honest with you from day 1
I appreciate that. I never doubted your sincerity, and I think things would've
worked out better if I had been honest as well. Hopefully we can make up for that now.
> There's no reason for him to be building a third fleet at
> this point except that he wants to come after England.
I agree. He clearly has plans for conquest.
Germany's three fleets will severely hamper us. I'll drop Russia a line and see
if he's willing to help us out, but I suspect you're not high on his list of potential
allies.
> Here's my first impression moves for the Spring:
>
> StP-Nwy
> Edi - Nth - Bel
> ENG S NTH
> Pic S Edi - Bel
> Spa - Gas
> Mar - Bur
That's probably the best we can do, given the current situation.
> As I most East, you would of
> course be able to pick up Belgium.
With Germany's strong defenses, I don't think my armies will be able to make much
progress this year - there's no one available to support them. One possibility for
Fall is: Bur-Ruh, Pic S Bel, Bel S Lon-Hol, Eng S Nth. It's a long shot, but if it
works it puts us in good position for 1904. If you have a better idea, I'm all ears.
What of MAO/Lvp? Do you want to bounce in Iri?
Rod
From - Thu Oct 04 23:20:09 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
Due to turmoil in the west, I fear that we won't be able to hamper your enemies.
Hopefully the A/R conflict will give you an opportunity to survive.
Good luck!
Rod
From - Thu Oct 04 23:20:11 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
You might have to prop up France. It might be a good excuse to get a
fleet west. England and Germany are still allied, and England's builds
make it clear where he is going. Russia is going to suffer too.
Germany's fleet will likely move to the Baltic. A German convoy to
Livonia will be devastating for Russia.
I don't know what to do. If you do not attack me, then Russia's attack
will not be effective. But, should he be encouraged to defend against
Germany, or should I just help Germany eliminate him if I get the
chance? It seems like you should get all of the Turkish centers, but how
are we going to get them? If Russia gets out of Serbia I would be happy
to help you take back or hold Constantinople. You are going to need help
to stay there. I don't know if Russia is willing. He might attack
Bulgaria. You could help him, but this means that Turkey will likely be
able to build, something you surely do not want.
What is your take on all this?
Austria
From - Thu Oct 04 23:20:12 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England, France and Germany in
'gutsy':
>Adjustment orders for Winter of 1902. (gutsy.006)
>
>England: Builds a fleet in Liverpool.
>England: Builds an army in Edinburgh.
>Germany: Builds a fleet in Kiel.
Paranoia and over-eagerness are an unfortunate
combination, Brent. Had you taken my advice you
would have been well positioned to stab Rod or
Steve in a year or three, but by insisting on two
builds this yeat, and building F Lvp, you've
crippled the WT, and doomed me to an early exit.
The odds are that you've also forced Steve and Rod
into an alliance against you, and so you will not
profit from your early growth. Ah well, I'll see
you all in the next game, unless I manage to swing
Adam to my side.
Eric the Doomed.
From - Thu Oct 04 23:20:15 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
Given Russia's distraction in the south, England can essentially protect both Nwy
and StP with the single fleet in StP. That allows him to allocate the remainder
of his forces for defense, making our job more difficult.
If you're willing to take a little risk, we could focus on whittling down Enland's
supply-center count: Den-Ska, Hol S Kie-Hel, Ruh-Kie, Bur-Mun. Then in the Fall:
Ska S Swe-Nwy, Kie-Den, Hol S Hel-Nth. It delays your entrace to Nth by one season,
but if it works it takes a center from England this year and gives Russia a good
opportunity to reclaim StP the next. Knocking down England will be a piece of cake
once he has been reduced to three units.
Another option would be Den S Hol-Nth, Kie-Hel; followed by Swe S Nth-Nwy, Den S
Hel-Nth. However, I doubt Russia would agree to this.
Rod
From - Thu Oct 04 23:20:59 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
[Germany's three fleets will severely hamper us. I'll drop Russia a
line and see if he's willing to help us out, but I suspect you're not
high on his list of potential allies.]
That might be tough in the Spring, but possibly in the Fall after he
sees that I'm not going after him. He has told me that he plans to
leave Germany alone though, so it would be a long shot.
I still think we can take advantage of the three fleets though. It
leaves Germany with very little in the way of ground troops. Assuming
we can get Belgium, we should outnumber him and be able to make some
progress (the only problem is that pesky forward retreat). Your idea of
an immediate convoy of London is a possibility, but I worry that it
doesn't give you much incentive, since I'd pick up both the centers.
I realize that right now you are discussing "possible truths" as you
put it, so I want to do whatever I can to make working with me the best
choice. I wish I could offer you a center right away, but I don't see a
way that I can. Liverpool can do whatever makes you most comfortable, a
bounce or sit still, or moving if you prefer. Its presence within a
space of Liverpool at this point is all I need.
What do you think of Eric's broadcast? He's awfully quick to put all
the blame on me when Germany is the one building a third fleet. Not
sure what to read into that...
Brent
From - Thu Oct 04 23:21:01 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
> It looks like E/G are about to come to blows, which gives
> me a good opportunity to pick sides.
You know, I don't think any of the players has a clue
what's going on anywhere. He would say this but Keith
definately thinks Germany and England are allied and
that they mostly intend to attack me. He thinks F Kie
is headed in my direction.
Meanwhile, Steve thinks that all three of you have
been arguing and nobody really has any solid allience
at all, and may not trust each other enough to be
able to get one.
Brent isn't happy with Germany's build F Kie, but then
his build F Lvp isn't very pro-French either.
In the south, I'm not sure but I think Eric might be
talked around onto my side if I could find a use for
him while Raine is desperate to finish Eric off,
even at the cost of a decent attack on Keith, as
his refusal to convoy Tun to Gre last fall shows.
Keith says he'll forgive me if I leave Ser peacefully.
I was attacking Germany, then I wasn't and I was
going for Austria, now Austria has me worried that
Germany and England are allied together with
my name written on their gun barrels.
This is confusing enough. Add to that the position
of the units in Austria and the Balkans and Turkey,
which seem to show a dozen different potential attacks,
half of which could be countered by the dozen or so
defences, not to mention nobody knows what Raine will
do now he can't keep Con. Just about every support is
cuttable, but not all at once. It's like rolling a
die for every unit's move.
Woh. If you think you know what's going on, you're
better versed than me.
> What are your plans for your fleet in Swe? Knowing your
> disposition would help me decide on my own course of action.
> Swe-Nwy seems like an obvious move. Or do you have other plans?
Swe-Nwy is what England thinks I should do. Brent wants us to
bounce in Norway peacefully every move from now until the
end of time. I assume he thinks that's safe. Well, it may
be safe for him but if he's really allied with Germany
then this spring a failure to move to Nwy, while Germany
takes Swe would leave my fleet vunerable and surrounded
for the fall. German F Swe S English F StP - Nwy in the
fall loses me yet another center and I own nothing north
of Moscow. Not too good. F Kie looks like it was purpose
made to follow up into Denmark in the spring too.
So I might agree to that bounce and then just stay put,
or move to Bot/Fin. Steve has said he would bounce Brent
from Sweeden in the fall if I wondered over to StP in the
spring, but of course we couldn't guarentee that Brent
would even TRY for swe. I'd probably bounce in StP again
if I were Brent in that situation anyway.
Confusing. I don't know who to trust at all.
> Yes, it was a good opportunity. Assistance from Italy
> would really help you take advantage of it. I'll suggest
> that to Raine and see what he says.
He's been in on it for a while, but he refuses to do
anything at all to anybody until Eric is completely
eliminated. It's annoying becasue I don't usually
bother to finish off an elimination until the end-game.
I like lots of players bashing their heads together,
lots of players make it harder to organise a
stop-the-leader aliance for a start.
It's also annoying becasue I could do with the help in
Austria and I'm positive that when I've figured
out what our best moves are (man it's complicated
down there) he won't agree if Eric regains a
center even if it were to leave Keith two down.
I'm glad we've got all weekend to sort this one out,
it's complicated.
Adam........
From - Thu Oct 04 23:21:10 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi,
Shoot, Brent, we just aren't connecting here at all. I'm not sure if we're
missing on a personal level or just not communicating very well. We both
seem to be writing enough press so that can't be it.
I mean, we haven't attacked each other and there are no open hostilities
apparent. Yea, I ordered hol - nth last turn, but I also ordered den - swe
as well, and mun - bur the turn before. My relations with Adam and Rod
haven't been negatively affected by those moves. Plus, I've had to bounce
in Munich both in '01 and in '02 yet Raine, Keith, and I seem to be on good
terms as well. So there must be something in what I perceive as acceptable
behavior and what you perceive as a threat that is causing this friction.
I'd like to talk more about this dynamic because it has both short-term and
long-term implications. Short-term, this year is pivotal; the alliance
structure will flow from what happens in the triangle. Long-term, whether
we're on the same or opposite sides, we had better understand each other's
style of play. Not just in Gutsy (though that is my focus), but other games
in the future. I'm not talking cross-play here; it's just that we are both
likely to encounter the other's style again. Let's use this as a learning
opportunity.
Now, I think you deserve some explanation of why I did what I did.
> You talk about disbanding a fleet, and then build a third one?
Yep, I thought it was my best move. I floated the idea of disbanding Hol,
but got a resounding chorus of silence from both Rod and Eric (twice in
fact). I built a third because I saw nothing worthwhile I could do with
another army. I'm not going after Keith because I need a strong Austria
just as much as he needs a strong Germany. Plus, if my next center comes
from Adam, Sweden is the obvious choice.
> And why did you choose not to discuss it with me at all?
I'm not trying to take advantage of you, Brent, but if I had said: "Hi, I'm
building F Kie. I hope that's okay", you would have ordered "F Edi" before
finishing my letter. Why should I tip my hand like that? Just so you know,
no one else on the board knew what I was building either, just like I don't
think anyone knew what you were building or what Raine was building. We're
all on equal footing here.
> I hope this is not the declaration of war against England that it
> certainly appears to be.
I'm sorry if it appears that way, but this is where the problem of our
different perceptions comes into play. My goal for '03 is to get a seventh
center. Plain and simple. I figure Sweden is my best chance.
Please write when you can. There's a lot we should talk about.
- Steve
P.S. I think Eric's comment was out of line. He is just a bit frustrated
that's all. Don't let his frustration spoil the game for you; there's a lot
of fun still to be had. LOL
From - Thu Oct 04 23:21:12 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
> Paranoia and over-eagerness are an unfortunate
> combination, Brent. Had you taken my advice you
> would have been well positioned to stab Rod or
> Steve in a year or three, but by insisting on two
> builds this yeat, and building F Lvp, you've
> crippled the WT, and doomed me to an early exit.
> The odds are that you've also forced Steve and Rod
> into an alliance against you, and so you will not
> profit from your early growth.
Was that both barrels or just one? LOL. Damn, I never want you mad at me.
:)
> Ah well, I'll see you all in the next game, unless I
> manage to swing Adam to my side.
Maybe, maybe not, but I understand why you would tell Brent that. We both
know the drill; I'm not promising much, but I'll do my best with Adam.
Thanks.
BTW, any word I should know about? I'll write more once I hear back from my
first round of press. Talk soon I hope.
- Steve
From - Thu Oct 04 23:21:15 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> If I stab you in the Spring, just go kamikaze on me and reclaim
> it in the Fall. I'm sure Brent would be happy to see that.
Yes, he certainly would be. LOL
> Let's put the issue of Bel to rest...(snip)...Let's focus on mutual
> growth as FG vs E, and decide the fate of Bel diplomatically.
Done, I appreciate your frankness here and I think that is an excellent
idea. I'm quite willing to relinquish Belgium if we ever get out of
balance. Having Adam and Keith at my doorstep made me extra cautious this
last year.
You also suggested a couple of alternative moves. Let me think for a couple
of hours and I'll get back to you.
Thanks; it's been a busy day.
- Steve
From - Thu Oct 04 23:21:43 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
I Wrote > >
> > Paranoia and over-eagerness are an unfortunate
> > combination, Brent. Had you taken my advice you
> > would have been well positioned to stab Rod or
> > Steve in a year or three, but by insisting on two
> > builds this year, and building F Lvp, you've
> > crippled the WT, and doomed me to an early exit.
> > The odds are that you've also forced Steve and Rod
> > into an alliance against you, and so you will not
> > profit from your early growth.
>
> Was that both barrels or just one? LOL.
> Damn, I never want you mad at me. :)
*grin* Hell, I thought I was being kind... I may be odd, but when
I offer tactical advice to my allies, I try to make it as good as possible,
since, especially in cross-board alliances, having you allies do well helps
you do well. My plans for F1902M would have left the WT much
better positioned to roll over RI than you are, and my proposed builds
would still have given you the chance to continue. Now, the West will
resolve while the East resolves and you're likely to find yourselves in an
RI vs. FG endgame that will leave no hope of a solo, and make
reducing to a 2 or 3-way draw difficult to impossible. Most of the
fault for that lies with Brent, in my (not so 8-) humble opinion.
> > Ah well, I'll see you all in the next game, unless I
> > manage to swing Adam to my side.
>
> Maybe, maybe not, but I understand why you would tell Brent that.
> We both know the drill; I'm not promising much, but I'll do my best
> with Adam.
The odds are that I'll be eliminated, since Raine seems to have it
in for me. (It must be those concentric circles on the back of the robe,
my demeanor and negotiating in the East have been no different than
they have been with you.) Obviously, I will continue to work on
Adam, Keith and Raine, but I'm not optomistic at this point.
> BTW, any word I should know about? I'll write more once I hear
> back from my first round of press. Talk soon I hope.
Adam apologized for Bla-Ank, and complained about Raine's "my
way or the highway" negotiating style, so I offered my support into
Con. No response, yet. Rod said, 'Sorry, you're on your own,
now.', but that was to be expected. That's about it. Feel free to
keep bad-mouthing Raine to Adam, it can't hurt my chances. ;^}
Eric the Oppressed.
From - Thu Oct 04 23:22:11 2001
Broadcast message [from Elladan915 at netzero.net,Dip_Power at hotmail.com as
Turkey] in 'gutsy':
End of Year statements are due. Please send them in. I know that
I sure as hell want to know what you people were thinking when you
made those moves this Spring and Fall.
From - Thu Oct 04 23:22:13 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
[Shoot, Brent, we just aren't connecting here at all. I'm not sure if we're
missing on a personal level or just not communicating very well.]
I think its more of a matter of having quite different ways of looking at
the game.
[I mean, we haven't attacked each other and there are no open hostilities
apparent. Yea, I ordered hol - nth last turn, but I also ordered den - swe
as well, and mun - bur the turn before.]
Well, one was ordered with the intent of attacking France (or so I was led
to believe), and the other was ordered with the intent of attacking Russia
(again, from what you've told me). Thats not a pattern I'd like to
follow...
[My relations with Adam and Rod haven't been negatively affected by those
moves.]
If you really believe that, either you're quite gullible, or I am. I
wouldn't want to bet on which it is, I'm just saying that that doesn't match
what I've heard.
[ So there must be something in what I perceive as acceptable
behavior and what you perceive as a threat that is causing this friction.]
Very much so. I like to find someone that I can talk strategy with, who I
can discuss my moves with, and who I feel confident in the end will move in
the way we've agreed. Maybe I haven't been playing in enough high rated
games. But I'm one that believes that one doesn't always have to lie or
keep secrets in order to prosper in this game.
[I built a third because I saw nothing worthwhile I could do with
another army. ]
I don't understand that. You were once planning to attack France. You
claim now to be attacking Russia. Both of these countries share land
borders with you, and yet you see no use whatsoever for another army? You
must be darn confident in knowing what Keith, Adam, and Rod are doing.
Assuming as I do that you aren't planning to move two armies to Munich
again, you've left yourself open to be basically destroyed in a single turn
if Adam and Keith patch things up.
My concern is not really now, but what happens to all those fleets two
years down the road. Assuming that you're telling the truth about wanting
to attack Russia, Sweden is the only center your fleets will help you with.
Then where will they all go? Its a long hard road to France, and most of
the paths involve going through me.
[I'm not trying to take advantage of you, Brent, but if I had said: "Hi,
I'm
building F Kie. I hope that's okay", you would have ordered "F Edi" before
finishing my letter.]
Possibly. But only if that was what I felt the best way to keep our
alliance together was. By not telling me, you don't give me the option, and
thus don't give me a chance to make the best decision for the alliance, and
in the end the alliance suffers. At least thats my opinion on these kind of
things.
[just like I don't think anyone knew what you were building]
You don't huh? If you were to ask around, I think you'll find that you
were mistaken...
[My goal for '03 is to get a seventh
center. Plain and simple. I figure Sweden is my best chance.]
So you're telling me that you think the alliance structure in the triangle
will be decided this turn, so you're moving East? Not even an offer for an
attack on France, despite your already having armies on his border?
Wouldn't that concern you if our roles were reversed?
I think the goals exercise from 1902 was useful, so lets try it again.
What do you think my goals are (or should be) at this point, and what ways
do you think you can help me achieve them?
Brent
From - Thu Oct 04 23:22:15 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Master in 'gutsy':
England End of Year 1902
Definitely an improvement from 1901. I had to make a decision between
going with a move in the Spring that would definitely decide whether I would
gain a center or not, or one that would leave me with a 50/50 in the Fall.
I decided that I'd have a better chance of gaining allies if I could prove I
was stable, and thus took the chance in the Spring. I got it, and in the
process definitely prolonged my time as ruler of England.
Rod seemed to become more receptive once he couldn't gain a center from
me, and I was able to get him to walk out of London on his own. I wasn't
willing to cave to the peer pressure though and let him keep it for another
turn. I'm very glad I didn't, because with no pressure coming from Italy I
think next year would've been too late.
Steve's "Me,me,me" attitude continues to grate, and I was disappointed to
see him actually get a build from what looked like a disaster. EFG will
almost certainly become a 2 on 1 this year, and I think my best bet at a
compatible team is Rod. Steve and I just have too much of a difference in
our views on the game.
Raine has been all but silent, and when he does talk doesn't have anything
useful for me. Keith and I haven't talked much, but I'm hoping to change
that. Adam and I have done OK until the attack on St. Pete's. It was
supposed to make him mad to distract him from Eric, but I kind of backed off
a bit on that when Eric got so pushy and Adam stabbed Keith. Eric and I got
along real well, but there was little I could do from the other corner to
save him. I'm still hoping he can save himself and we can team up later in
the game.
From - Thu Oct 04 23:22:17 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Wow, that was pretty harsh. Do you really think my chances are that bad?
Steve seemed to have decided to attack me before seeing the builds, judging
by where his was. Rod is receptive though, and I still think its ludicrous
to think that France should be able to sit in MAO and English, but if
England builds a fleet in a home center it automatically means war.
I'm still hoping that you can pull yourself out of the hole you're in in
the East. I don't want my move to St. Petersburg and deliberate worsening
of my relationship with Adam to be for nothing, especially since it didn't
even get a vote of appreciation from you. Imagine where we'd be now though
if I had moved as you suggested? I'd have one army in Edi and no units in
Liverpool, with London still under French control. What do you think Rod
would've done in the face of zero pressure from Italy?
Anyways, I hope you stick around in the game, even if you can't find a way
to resurrect the Ottoman empire. Its always nice to have someone to chat to
about the game that doesn't have a vested interest in it going one way or
the other. If there's anything you need from me diplomatically, don't
hesitate to ask.
Brent
From - Thu Oct 04 23:22:45 2001
Broadcast message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France in
'gutsy':
> Broadcast message in 'gutsy':
>
> End of Year statements are due. Please send them in. I know that
> I sure as hell want to know what you people were thinking when you
> made those moves this Spring and Fall.
Hmmm. Is this the *Master* using Grey press?
From - Thu Oct 04 23:22:46 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> Your idea of
> an immediate convoy of London is a possibility, but I worry that it
> doesn't give you much incentive, since I'd pick up both the centers.
Unfortunately, the current position doesn't really give me much chance
of getting any centers this year. Nevertheless, taking two centers from
Germany is surely better than taking only one.
> I wish I could offer you a center right away, but I don't see a
> way that I can.
You're right that I don't want to see you get two centers while I get
none. OTOH, hitting Germany as hard as possible is the best thing for
EF.
If you're serious about wanting me to grow along with you, you could
loan me one of your other centers. For example, I could move F MAO to
Lvp this year. A fleet is not much of a threat to you compared to an
army, and if you don't have to worry about defending Lvp then you can
move that fleet around to Edi or Nwg and put it to use. That gives us
both six centers this year (assuming everything goes according to plan),
then when I eventually advance to Bel you reclaim Lvp.
I suspect you don't care for that idea, but it's something to consider.
> What do you think of Eric's broadcast?
I think he's just upset that EFG isn't going to save his butt after all.
Rod
From - Thu Oct 04 23:22:47 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> He would say this but Keith
> definately thinks Germany and England are allied and
> that they mostly intend to attack me. He thinks F Kie
> is headed in my direction.
I am very confident that that is NOT the case.
> In the south, I'm not sure but I think Eric might be
> talked around onto my side if I could find a use for
> him
Eric did mention to me that he thinks you are his best hope for
survival.
> Keith says he'll forgive me if I leave Ser peacefully.
Of course he'll be grateful if you don't eviscerate him - but so what?
;-)
> now Austria has me worried that
> Germany and England are allied together with
> my name written on their gun barrels.
That serves Keith's interests well. I, on the other hand, indirectly
benefit from your success, and I can assure you that EG are not going to
jump on you.
> Confusing. I don't know who to trust at all.
Don't let them confuse you. What would *you* like to do with F Swe?
Rod
From - Thu Oct 04 23:23:00 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> Done, I appreciate your frankness here and I think that is an excellent
> idea. I'm quite willing to relinquish Belgium if we ever get out of
> balance.
Sounds good.
I just had an idea - and if you don't care for it, feel free to veto it
- I won't complain. I think we have sufficient force to take care of
England, but just one more fleet in the west to overpower F Lvp would be
the icing on the cake. The easiest way to raise another fleet quickly -
if you're willing - would be to grant me Bel this year. You remove an
army and I build a fleet. We still have a 6/5 balance (although
swinging in my favor), and I don't think there's a lot of risk. You can
station armies in Ruh and Mun, and we DMZ Bur. If I'm the first one to
get a center in the north, I give Bel back to you so we stay even.
Please give me your honest opinion. If you're not comfortable with the
idea, that's fine. I would only ask that you DMZ Ruh while you have an
army in Bel.
> Having Adam and Keith at my doorstep made me extra cautious this
> last year.
I understand. All the more reason to make sure you get off *my*
doorstep! ;-)
BTW, Adam has revealed that Brent asked him to perpetually bounce in
Nwy, but Adam isn't sure yet if he's going to do that. Also, Keith is
trying to convince Adam of an EG alliance against him! I will disabuse
Adam of this notion.
Rod
From - Thu Oct 04 23:23:11 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
> Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> Wow, that was pretty harsh. Do you really think my chances are
> that bad?
... I may be odd, but when I offer tactical advice to my allies, I try to
make it as good as possible, since, especially in cross-board alliances,
having you allies do well helps you do well. My plans for F1902M
would have left the WT much better positioned to roll over RI than
you are, and even after the three of you made other choices, my
proposed builds would still have given you the chance to continue.
Now, the West will resolve while the East resolves and we're likely to
find ourselves in an RI vs. FG endgame that will leave no hope of a
solo, and make reducing to a 2 or 3-way draw difficult to impossible.
Most of the fault for that lies with you, in my (not so 8-) humble
opinion, for insisting on taking Lon this year, and building F Lvp.
> I still think its ludicrous to think that France should be able to sit in
> MAO and English, but if England builds a fleet in a home center it
> automatically means war.
France was sitting in Lon and ECh, he willingly moved to MAO and
ECh. If you had built Armies, as I suggested, he would have felt free
move to WMed and MAO, minimizing his threat to you. F Lvp is
basically useless in attacking Russia, but comes in quite handy to
attack France. Just as a build of F Kiel, F StP/NC, or F Bre is seen
as anti-English, F Lvp is seen as anti-French.
> I'm still hoping that you can pull yourself out of the hole you're in in
> the East. I don't want my move to St. Petersburg and deliberate
> worsening of my relationship with Adam to be for nothing, especially
> since it didn't even get a vote of appreciation from you.
An enemy Fleet in StP/NC is a minor inconvience to Russia. Adam will
miss the build, but he can safely remain focused on the South, and not
worry about your Fleet until he gets a couple of builds.
> Imagine where we'd be now though if I had moved as you
> suggested? I'd have one army in Edi and no units in Liverpool, with
> London still under French control. What do you think Rod would've
> done in the face of zero pressure from Italy?
Given a strong Western Triple, and continued lobbying from me,
Rod most likely would have moved MAO-WMed, ECh-MAO. The
WT is good for England and France, and risky for Germany, so as
long as you were focused on Russia, Rod would have felt free to grab
some Italian Centers, and then stab you or Germany to try for the
Solo. (Assuming you didn't stab first.) (Is my opinion colored by the
fact that I'm likely to be the first eliminated as a result of the collapse
of the WT? Probably. Am I frustrated because I'm giving everyone
what I consider to be good advice, and no-one is listening to me?
Certainly. Is that affecting the tone of my Press? Possibly. Am I
mad at you for doing what you thought was best for your Power?
No, of course not, but I do think you were wrong, and I've never
been shy about sharing my opinions. ;-)
Eric.
From - Thu Oct 04 23:23:17 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
> Broadcast message from France in 'gutsy':
>
> > Broadcast message in 'gutsy':
> >
> > End of Year statements are due. Please send them in. I know that
> > I sure as hell want to know what you people were thinking when
> > you made those moves this Spring and Fall.
>
> Hmmm. Is this the *Master* using Grey press?
*chuckle* No, that was me. I figure that I'll get to read the game
history soon enough... 8-(
Eric.
From - Fri Oct 05 17:24:36 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Master in 'gutsy':
Austria's EOY statement for 1902.
This year didn't go as planned. I should have stuck to my plan last year
and attacked Italy. I thought that by making a bold move against Germany
with Russia that Italy would begin to move west. This was the whole
idea. Of course Italy did not move west, and Russia took advantage of me
and took Serbia.
I saw the possibility that Russia could do this, but it seemed to me to
be so much not in his best interests, that I wasn't worried about it. I
am afraid that Italy is in on it too. He's not going to get any more
supply centers from Turkey any time soon, so his best bet is to go after
me. Plus, it looks like EG will stay together, so this will keep the
pressure off Italy's back. Italy is the big winner here, I think. Well,
perhaps not. Turkey is not dead yet, and I don't think that Russia and
Italy have the units to take on both Turkey and Austria, even if we two
don't work together.
I am sure that Italy and Russia are counting on my not expecting Italy to
be in on it, so I will play this line. Though Russia has already told me
that Italy knew about it. I can't trust much either of them says.
Hopefully Russia will see the danger that EG pose to him, and he will get
off my back so I can attack Italy or help him against Turkey. Russia is
really hindered by his having two southern fleets.
I will probably lose a center in 1903, probably Greece or Bulgaria. I
would be very happy if Italy doesn't join Russia, but I can't see why he
would not. Perhaps he thinks he will be able to defeat Turkey on his
own. Russia will surely want to try to use his units against me. I will
try to convince him to gracefully retreat and regroup, not that I'm
holding my breath.
keith
From - Fri Oct 05 17:24:48 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
[EG ganging up on me]
> I am very confident that that is NOT the case.
You're probably right, it wasn't the impression I got
before Keith said anything but I would have also
bet on A Mun for Steve's build too. Strange.
> Eric did mention to me that he thinks you are his best hope for
> survival.
Up until last movement phase at least, he was probably right.
It might do him favours to try and sort something out with
Keith now though. He's offered to support /me/ into Con,
which I'm suspicious of. I guess he wants me to alienate
myself from Italy.
> Of course he'll be grateful if you don't eviscerate him - but so what?
This is pretty much what I think, but the unit's
placement is so confusing. I think I'm going to
have to acutally get my board out of it's cupboard
this evening and play with actual little bits of
plastic to figure out what to do there.
> That serves Keith's interests well. I, on the other hand, indirectly
> benefit from your success, and I can assure you that EG are not going to
> jump on you.
There's probably not a great deal I could do about it if they are.
I'd loose Swe for sure, and it'd be even harder to get StP back
as a result but that's all they could realistically gain in
the short term at least.
> Don't let them confuse you. What would *you* like to do with F Swe?
I'd like it to retake StP, but that's not possible either.
I'll probably take Brent up on that bounce in Nwy, or else
hold it where it is and see what happens. Can you see something
else particually useful? I suppose I could support a unit into
Norway, or Den.
Adam...........
From - Fri Oct 05 17:24:52 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
> Comparing this to France taking London is quite the stretch. It was
> obvious to everyone that France took London as a springboard to further
> conquest. There's no way I can turn a fleet in St. Petersburg into
> anything more without bringing in a bunch more units. I'm not going to
> completely forego dealing with the West just to send a bunch of units at
> you.
Well, there are differences of course but it's still a home
supply center and there do seem to be a lot of fleets in
the northern seas just ripe to convoy lots of armies into
StP. This number of fleets would have me concerned even if
I still held StP. Steve probably has other targets in mind,
but how can I rule out Anglo-German cooperation here?
> And let me ask you this. If you retake St. Petersburg, and then have
> to permanently station a unit there to defend it, are you really better
> off for having retaken it. A center by itself is worthless, unless
> you're at 17. Its the unit from that center that is useful, so if that
> unit is permanently stationary, you didn't gain anything.
It would make my other single unit more secure, the fleet in
Swe is a long way from being safe right now. I can't do it
for a year or two anyway so there's really not a great deal
of point talkinga about it right now though.
> Which is exactly the reason that I'm willing to vacate St.
> Petersburg. Not with a "Sorry, hope you take it back.", but
> with the understanding that you and I can have a much better
> relationship and more efficient use of units if its under my control.
Well, you may think it's more efficient but it's hard to see
how having one less center (and thus no build last year) is
more efficient for me.
> As for my plans in the West, a 3rd fleet build from Germany can only
> mean one thing as far as I'm concerned. You obviously noticed the same
> thing since you have now decided to leave Germany alone. But if you
> ever change your mind about that, you know how to find me.
Well, I was fully expecting A Mun to be frank, A Kie was
a shock - it could be aimed at Swe/Bal just as easily as
England. Well, nearly as easily anwyay.
You know, it wouldn't surprise me if he build that fleet
in order to help me get StP back, but I definately haven't
asked for him to do that. I'd probably find it hard to
refuse if he offered though.
The balkans are a mess. Utterly. I have no idea what's going
on with most of the people there and even less idea of a
good attack strategy that might work against Keith. I
think I'm going to actually have to get my board out of
the cupboard and play with the plastic peaces for a while
this evening before I head out. Haven't had to do that
for ages.
Pre.........
From - Fri Oct 05 17:24:56 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> I would have also bet on A Mun for Steve's build too.
That would've annoyed me, because I expect him to move Bur-Mun. Maybe he just decided to piss Brent off instead.
> Eric did mention to me that he thinks you are his best hope for
> survival.
> He's offered to support /me/ into Con, which I'm suspicious of.
It would at least get you out of Bla (assuming Sev-Rum) and assure him that you
and Italy aren't working together against him. Maybe he figures you'd eventually
move the fleet to Bul or Aeg and let him reclaim Con.
> I think I'm going to
> have to acutally get my board out of it's cupboard
> this evening and play with actual little bits of
> plastic to figure out what to do there.
I've found that's helpful with complex situations - but little blocks of wood are
much nicer than those bits of plastic. :-)
> I'd like it to retake StP, but that's not possible either.
You'd need another unit for support.
> I suppose I could support a unit into Norway, or Den.
Indeed. It depends on whom you would trust to repay the favor. Assume an E/G war,
and try to find a role in it.
Rod
From - Fri Oct 05 17:24:58 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Argh, as if the board wasn't confusing enough my email
client has just died three times in a row. The last from
a power failure restarting the entire machine. Technology!
Pah.
Sorry this is a little bit slower reply than I usually
like. I keep hoping that I'll figure out what moves I
should make before I write to anyone but I've given up
on that. It's too hard. I think I'm going to have to
get out my board and actually play with little plastic
pieces this evening or this weekend. I haven't had to
do that for ages but it's pretty complex down in
the Balkans.
> Bla-Rum would have made much more sense, then.
I was hungover and tired when I finally sent the move for
Bla. I couldn't think about it at all, just did what
Raine said to do since he appeared to be agreeing to
attack Austria at least. Oh well.
> I told Raine I liked the idea of an IT Alliance, but
> was not going to attack Russia while he was opening
> with a Lepanto. He obviously felt that I should
> disregard if F Aeg, and attack you anyway. *shrug*
> Perhaps he fears my JDPR.
I was half joking when I asked what you'd said to him
anyway, I think it's just his style of play that's the
fault here. I get the impression that he picks an
enemy and then doesn't rest or divert his purpose
until that enemy is eliminated. I'm surprised he's
managed to get such a high rating with this strategy
but I guess it might work well sometimes. It just seems
inflexible to me.
> Could I interest you in Ank S Bla - Con?
Well, as I said, I can't figure out WHAT the best moves
might be for me at the moment. Bla - Con could work fairly
well but of course if you knew I was moving Bla then Ank
S Smy - Con might well work out better for you. Heh.
Raine is dead set against it but I wouldn't be surprised
if the best moves for me at least would involve you taking
Con back. If we can knock Austria down by two or three
then I certainly don't mind you growing by one. As I said,
Raine will be harder to convince but we'll see.
If you can find a good strategy which gets me 1 build, Italy
1 build and you one build from the mess in the south this
year then by all means suggest it. Me, I have to go home
and play with my little ships and armies, it's too hard.
Adam..........
From - Fri Oct 05 17:25:03 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Oh, I'm not expecting you to leave peacefully. I am just saying that if
> you surprise me and leave peacefully, then all will be well between us,
> and I won't try to take any revenge. I really believe there are better
> and more profitable things for us both to be doing than to attack each
> other.
Even now that I've had chance to look at the board I can't
figure out what to do for the best at all. I'm hoping to
find some time tonight or tommorow to get my board out and
play with the little ships and bullets in the hope that
will help me figure it out. I haven't had to do that in
some time.
> I don't see that Turkey will be eliminated quickly now. Italy is going
> to have to make a choice, if he hasn't already, whether to attack me or
> not. If he doesn't help you, you might as well withdraw now and bargain
> for a larger share than you would have gotten.
Raine has been pretty quiet the last day or two. I imagine
he's busy but it's harder to work out what to do when
your potiential allies are quiet. I wouldn't be all
that surprised to see Eric grow by a center or two
before he started to decline again now though, you're
right there.
> The problem was, and this was I thought one of the main reasons why you
> wanted to attack Germany, and why I agreed to help, that England and
> Germany are very close. This was confirmed by the Spring moves, and we
> were lucky to have had the opportunity against Germany that you so
> carefully masterminded.
Wow, I thought we were moving against Germany mostly because
we were worried he was allied with FRANCE and that England
would be knocked out more quickly than we wanted. I also
thought that it was as much your idea as mine that we do
so. This is another reason why I was prepared to pull out
of the attack on Germany. His spring moves seemed to show
that he was allied with England after all - so the battle
in the west would be long enough for us to not worry about
it too much, and also our actions had already thrown a
spanner in those works, heaven knows who's supporting who
over there now.
> Now that I am going to pull away from Germany,
> it looks like France is left to dry. Look at England's builds. Germany
> will get a part of this, but I think that England and Germany are more
> likely to come against you than to attack each other.
F Kie doesn't look anti-english to you? The press I am getting
from all three of them would indicate that they don't
know what each other is doing at all. England is talking
down the StP move, saying it was designed to gain favour
with GF so he could more easily dupe them later and that
the attack can't go any further (it was with a fleet!)
> You don't need to make enemies of them. They will come after you. Your
> northern boundry is completely undefended. It is very easy for Germany
> and England to take Sweden, and if Germany moves even one unit East (you
> can bet that F Kie is going to the Baltic and not against England), you
> are in quite a bit of trouble.
This could be true, but it doesn't match well with the press I'm
getting from anyone. Raine would sooner attack France than me,
I'm pretty sure of that. Steve seems reasonably pleased now
that I quit Sil and was talking about supporting me against
England. They could be lying, it wouldn't even surprise me
a great deal, but it's fairly well orchestrated anyway.
> Honestly I don't think you will ever get Stp back. When are you going to
> do it? All your units are going to have to be used against me if you
> want to get anything, even with Italy's help. The loss of Stp does not
> hurt your southern efforts, but it does shut off your potential to build
> northern fleets.
It'll be a while, for sure. 1904 maybe, possibly later. It'd take
a unit to hold it once I took it back anyway so I'd get no net
benifit from taking it back immediately - unless there really
is an Anglo-Germanic conspiracy against me. Which I don't rule
out but I think less likely than a fight between them having
see that F Kie build. If they were conspiring then England would
usually have the fleets and Germany would have built A Ber, no?
> What are you going to do with your southern fleets? Attack me? They are
> useless against me.
I only expected to have one left of course. They still look good for
defending Rum and taking Bul or Ank or Con. More than enough to get
me some armies I'd think.
> What you should be doing is trying to take all the
> Turkish centers for yourself and get your fleets through to the med.
This sounds nice too. I think I can probably convince Italy
to sceede Con to me and Ank was already mine. Smy and Gre go
to him of course.
> I was just waiting for the chance to attack Italy. I should have done it
> in the Spring, I suppose, but I thought there was a good plan against
> Germany that would make Italy move west. Unfortunately he did not.
Another of the reasons I decided to make the moves I did. It
became clear to me slightly earlier than it did to you I think
that Raine had (and probably still has) no intention of doing
anything against anybody until Eric was dead. A completely
different style of play to the one I use, but I guess it could
get you into a lot of draws. I'd sooner see all seven powers
in the end-game myself, with lots of disharmony between them
making a stop-the-leader hard to organize.
Anyway, hopefully some light will shine on the board when I
set it up in real space rather than trying to use flock.net
and I'll have a clearer idea of the future when I talk to
you next.
Adam........
From - Fri Oct 05 17:25:08 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> > Bla-Rum would have made much more sense, then.
>
>I was hung over and tired when I finally sent the move for Bla. I couldn't
>think about it at all, just did what Raine said to do
I urge you to be very careful about agreeing to
Raine's suggested moves. They are always heavily
weighted in his favor. (I try to come up with
moves where both allies profit; Raine doesn't
seem to understand that approach.)
> > Could I interest you in Ank S Bla - Con?
>
>Well, as I said, I can't figure out WHAT the best moves
>might be for me at the moment. Bla - Con could work fairly
>well but of course if you knew I was moving Bla then Ank
>S Smy - Con might well work out better for you. Heh.
I'm at two Centers. Without an ally this year, I'm
dead. Raine's attitude is wholly unreasonable, and
Keith just isn't saying enough to make me consider AT.
That leaves you. Supporting you into Con helps you,
hurts Raine, and does me no harm, so I see no reason
not to do it. Lying to you at this point would amount
to slitting my own throat.
>If you can find a good strategy which gets me 1 build, Italy 1 build and
>you one build from the mess in the south this year then by all means
>suggest it.
I'd rather get you two, and me one, since getting Raine
a build will not be good for me, but I'll look into
both options.
Eric the Determined.
From - Fri Oct 05 17:25:11 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> That would've annoyed me, because I expect him to move Bur-Mun.
> Maybe he just decided to piss Brent off instead.
It looks a lot less pro-english than the move to Bur in the first
place did, for sure.
> It would at least get you out of Bla (assuming Sev-Rum) and assure
> him that you and Italy aren't working together against him.
> Maybe he figures you'd eventually move the fleet to Bul or Aeg
> and let him reclaim Con.
I probably would do that too. Raine will be the problem with
plans like that. He's terrified that Eric will get a build
this year, I think he'd sacrafice getting one of his own
to stop him. I may be able to use that fact, if only
the position wasn't so complex.
> I've found that's helpful with complex situations - but little
> blocks of wood are much nicer than those bits of plastic. :-)
I've never even seen a wooden set. I don't think they even
published one in the UK. Gibson Games had the licence for
ages (god knows who has it now Hasbro own the game) and
I think they only ever made a plastic set.
The map they supply in the UK set has Naf and Spa actually
joining up as well, though of course the movement is the
same as standard. THey have to specify in the rules that
armies can't walk there because they look like they should
be able to do so even more than Kie or Con.
> Indeed. It depends on whom you would trust to repay the favor.
> Assume an E/G war, and try to find a role in it.
Not a bad idea at all, except I could do without any extra
enemies at all really.
Pre...........
From - Fri Oct 05 17:25:18 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
I had considered the possibility of handing a center over to you, but
I really prefer to do that with non-home centers whenever possible.
Unfortunately, its not in this case. So after giving it a lot of
thought, I've decided that letting you into Liverpool is acceptable,
though with a few condtitions. First, I have to make it into Belgium in
the Spring. If I don't get it in the Spring, chances are slimmer that
I'll get it easily in the Fall, and I'm obviously not going to give up a
center without gaining one to replace it. Second, there has to at least
be a chance that I'm going to get a second center. If the moves we
decide on for the Fall do not present even a chance of that happening, I
will protect Liverpool. Otherwise I end up giving you a build from one
of my home centers while I get nothing. There's still a chance that
will happen anyways, but I don't want it to be a sure thing. Third,
there has to be an agreement that you will leave Liverpool to head back
towards MAO immediately, and I will recapture it as soon as it is
tactically feasible to do so.
If these conditions are acceptable to you, I suggest we move MAO - Iri
and Lvp - NAO. If we decided in the Fall to go through with the switch,
fine. If not, I can cover Lvp and you can cover MAO, with no one being
aware that it was all arranged.
Obviously, I am accepting this because I know its a better deal than
you'll ever get from Steven, at least willingly. I'm once again taking
the majority of the risk, but I'm hoping that after last time, you will
now see that siding with me has much better potential than siding
against me. I KNOW I'm better ally material than Steven, and I hope you
agree!
Brent
From - Fri Oct 05 17:25:21 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> I've never even seen a wooden set. I don't think they even
> published one in the UK.
If you're patient, you should be able to get one at a decent price on eBay, though
shipping costs to the UK might be prohibitive. Maybe you could ask the seller to
send you only the pieces. Or make your own! :-)
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&query=diplomacy&ht=1&category0=220&SortProperty=MetaEndSort
I suppose some people might think the wooden blocks are rather plain, but I think
they have a nice "classic" look and feel. Also, it's common practice to stand the
block up on its end (when the orders are read) to indicate that it's giving support.
Rod
From - Fri Oct 05 17:25:23 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
Thanks for your reply.
> I had considered the possibility of handing a center over to you, but
> I really prefer to do that with non-home centers whenever possible.
Yeah, that would generally be preferable. :-)
> So after giving it a lot of
> thought, I've decided that letting you into Liverpool is acceptable,
Thanks! I appreciate your willingness to compromise.
> though with a few condtitions.
Your conditions are reasonable.
> Second, there has to at least
> be a chance that I'm going to get a second center.
This would probably require Russia to cut the support of a German fleet in the
Fall. Do you think you could get him on board? Another option, if you're certain
to lose Nth anyway, would be to have F Nth itself take the second center (e.g, Bel S
Nth-Hol). Would you be willing to do that?
> I will recapture it as soon as it is
> tactically feasible to do so.
How about: As soon as you can reclaim Lvp *without* ending up with more than one
more center than I have.
> I suggest we move MAO - Iri and Lvp - NAO.
OK.
> I'm hoping that after last time, you will
> now see that siding with me has much better potential than siding
> against me. I KNOW I'm better ally material than Steven, and I hope you
> agree!
I do believe that you're more likely to stick to a plan than he is. And I'm also
aware that if I were to screw you over twice in a row you'd probably never forgive
me. :-)
Rod
From - Fri Oct 05 17:25:29 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> Wow, I thought we were moving against Germany mostly because
> we were worried he was allied with FRANCE and that England
> would be knocked out more quickly than we wanted. I also
> thought that it was as much your idea as mine that we do
> so.
Yes, you are right. I seem to have sent you some sort of
revisionism--why it was a good idea that we did attack Germany after all.
> F Kie doesn't look anti-english to you? The press I am getting
> from all three of them would indicate that they don't
> know what each other is doing at all. England is talking
> down the StP move, saying it was designed to gain favour
> with GF so he could more easily dupe them later and that
> the attack can't go any further (it was with a fleet!)
Yes, when everyone sends you press that says they don't know what they
are doing, it means that they are attacking you. Trust me.
I still think F Kie will go to Baltic. If Germany built A Ber, it would
certainly mean that you would pull out from Austria. Now he hopes you
will try to stay long enough that you won't be able to react to the
convoy to Livonia.
Good evidence for EG come from England's builds. He would have stuck his
neck out and built F Lvp unless he was pretty sure Germany was on his
side. Germany now has the gift of being in Burgundy. Burgundy is hard
to capture, and he will not give it up lightly, I don't think. It is
natural that they attack France. And if they cooperate against France, I
would not be surprised if they cooperate against you. Sweden isn't
important to you since you can just remove the fleet, but if they get an
army into Livonia, you won't be able to recover.
> This could be true, but it doesn't match well with the press I'm
> getting from anyone. Raine would sooner attack France than me,
> I'm pretty sure of that.
Italy has made it clear that he does not want to attack France. Now, if
EG attack France, I don't know what Italy will do. It might be wise for
him to try to prop France up rather than stealing supply centers from
behind France. Without you as a power in the North, Italy will not be
able to hold off EG in the Med. In any case, Italy certainly isn't going
to attack you. How could he?
> Steve seems reasonably pleased now
> that I quit Sil and was talking about supporting me against
> England. They could be lying, it wouldn't even surprise me
> a great deal, but it's fairly well orchestrated anyway.
I am sure he was pleased. You've saved his losing Berlin and Munich, at
least. Maybe Germany will switch sides once again , back to allying wiht
France and attacking England as you think. I just don't see it. Look
how Germany's units are placed.
> It'll be a while, for sure. 1904 maybe, possibly later. It'd take
> a unit to hold it once I took it back anyway so I'd get no net
> benifit from taking it back immediately - unless there really
> is an Anglo-Germanic conspiracy against me. Which I don't rule
> out but I think less likely than a fight between them having
> see that F Kie build. If they were conspiring then England would
> usually have the fleets and Germany would have built A Ber, no?
Again, what woul dyou have done if Germany would have built A Ber? This
would get Germany nowhere.
> This sounds nice too. I think I can probably convince Italy
> to sceede Con to me and Ank was already mine. Smy and Gre go
> to him of course.
I don't see you you're going to do it. Italy can move another fleet
East, but if you have to contend with me and Turkey, can you be sure of
any gains and no losses?
Austria
From - Fri Oct 05 21:55:10 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve.
Keith has been putting some potential scare stories
in my direction, as I'm sure you'd imagine. He seems
to think that you and England are planning to move
F Kie - Bal and then convoy over to Ukr. I guess
the aim of this is to worry me and I don't really
believe it but I would like to know what you
actually intend to do with your fleets in Den
and Kie to put my mind at rest. I can promise
confidentiallity if this is a worry to you.
Indeed, if you wanted some support into Norway I
might even provide that in the fall, though of
I'd ask for help reclaiming StP in return.
In the south, oh man, who knows what's the best
plan there. I've been playing with plastic pieces
over a map for the last hour and I can't see any
fool-proof plans at all. Any info at all on Kieth's
state of mind and plans would be useful but I
realise he tends to be pretty tight-lipped.
On a completely different note, so different it's
probably irrelelvent, in a different game with some
friends who all think (rightly) that I'm the monster
to be taken care of since I'm a better player than
they are, I'm playing Austria (The game is "Fermi"
on USIN).
Italy has moved to Tyr and Ven dispite my advice
that fighting between us will result in both our
deaths. I've never played Austria at all before
so I'm not really sure what to do. Obviously I
move to Tri with support from Vie since I clearly
can't trust Italy at all but what do you think
would be the best diplomatic line to take with
Russia, France and Turkey. I need their help but
Turkey is probably aligned with Italy anyway.
Possibly so much he'll support Ion into Gre
rather than have Italy take Tun (They live
togther so have a lot of extra diploming time).
Offer Gre to Turkey I guess. I don't like the
idea of a strong Turkey who's aligned with
Italy much though. Tricky.
Back in Gutsy, it'd be nice to hear your plans for
F Kie in particular. It looks anti-english to me
but, as Kieth pointed out, if you're all saying
that you don't know who you're aligned with then
you're probably up against me. I hope to get
a build which should kill most of his scare stories
if I built in Mos and I don't see that you'd
have a lot to gain, still, if you wanted my help
against England the best way to get it would be
to let me know what you're thinking of.
Unfortunately, I've accidentally gotten too drunk
to continue analyzing the Balkans. If you were Austria
what would you do with F Gre seems to be quite key.
Pre...........
From - Mon Oct 08 19:34:03 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
I don't think that Russia will be on board at this point. In fact, I
don't even want to bring up the subject until after the Spring moves,
because I'm almost certain that he would report back to Germany, and we need
the element of surprise this turn. Once the Spring moves are in, Russia
should be more willing to accept that I'm attacking Germany and possibly
lend his help.
Brent
From - Mon Oct 08 19:34:17 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
How would you like to handle the St. Petersburg situation for this move?
I'd kind of like to move the fleet back to Norway to help defend North from
the third German fleet, but I don't know how to make you comfortable with
that happening. So I suppose the most likely outcome is a bounce in Norway.
Whether or not to bounce me will be up to you, but at least consider that if
I really wanted to attack you, I'd just convoy to Norway and support myself
in, meaning it wouldn't matter whether you moved to Norway or not. I hope
you'll let me show you that my real target is in the West, and not you.
Brent
From - Mon Oct 08 19:34:38 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Austria in 'gutsy':
Looks like Germany and Russia have definitely come to some sort of
agreement, though Steve still claims that Sweden is his next center. Much
as I'd like to, I don't feel that I can push the attack against Russia until
there's some semblance of order in the West. Obviously I'm trying to
negotiate with both of them at this point, but that will probably only last
until the Spring moves.
So, is your current plan to turn all your forces against Russia, or is
another incursion into Munich planned? Obviously Steve doesn't think so,
since he left it wide open. If you can keep up the pressure on Russia for a
year while I get things under control in the Western triangle, I should be
able to renew the pressure on Russia from the North, and between us we
should be able to pinch him. Of course, if you have other plans or ideas,
I'd love to hear them.
Brent
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:05 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> I just had an idea - and if you don't care for it, feel free to veto
> it - I won't complain
I like your idea. I have no problem with being down 6/5 as long as my
prospects are well protected, but I do have to feel that they are being
protected. Is there someway we could work it out that I convoy Belgium into
London? That way, you can slide into Belgium and we both get a build. That
would be my preferred option.
Next year, I'd use that army to take Edi. If I remember correctly, our
original split was something like you get lvp, lon, and bel, while I get
edi, and whatever part of Scandanavia I can snarf.
> I understand. All the more reason to make sure you get
> off *my* doorstep! ;-)
Point well taken. Thanks for making that clear (like it wasn't already).
:)
> BTW, Adam has revealed that Brent asked him to perpetually bounce in
> Nwy, but Adam isn't sure yet if he's going to do that. Also, Keith is
> trying to convince Adam of an EG alliance against him! I will disabuse
> Adam of this notion.
I will too, that should be easy, though. Adam has already said my fleet
build looks anti-English; so I think he's comfortable.
I'll be back online Sunday evening and Monday afternoon/evening to talk.
I hope you had a good weekend. Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:07 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Please don't believe any scare stories about attacks on Sweden or convoys
into Livonia or any of that nonsense, from Keith or anyone else. Now that
you have left Silesia and Berlin is safe, I have no reason at all to
alienate you. I like the way we started the game and I'd like to
re-establish that level of agreement.
I figure you want to keep Sweden and reclaim St Pete. And I would sorely
like Norway; that would give me the base I really need to get my share of
the English centers. As I look at it, we are now natural allies in
Scandanavia; we can each get a build to fuel our efforts on our respective
front lines.
Specifically, Kiel will only move to the Baltic if negotiations between you
and me totally break down. I intend to use it against the North Sea as soon
as I can. I'm not sure if I will support Den into Nth and back fill from
Kiel or the other way around (or even just take the Bight). All three give
me what I want, the North Sea by fall. There are a couple of subtleties I
must consider, but that's my intention.
Also, I will think a bit about the Balkan situation and present a couple of
ideas. The one idea I've floated to anyone at all was to Eric. I suggested
he support the Black Sea into Con so that you could take Bulgaria in the
fall and he could get a build. If that does happen, you could rebuild your
line something like: A War, A Gal, A Rum, F Bul (sc), F Sev. That might
allow you to make friends with Eric and put some serious pressure on Adam.
The big wild-card here is Raine. He has not been very flexible so far (and
hasn't written very much). I know that I originally suggested working with
him, but you might want to reconsider it. I've found Eric to be so much
more reasonable and willing to negotiate. Just my thoughts; do what you
need to do. Hopefully, he will attack Greece.
Talk soon I hope. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:09 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
Wow, it's complicated looking in the Balkans isn't
it? I don't know how well we're going to be able to
do but I think we should be able to guarentee you
a build and probably get me one too. It's not going
to be easy though and since we can't hold Con,
we're going to have to move it out.
The key is to convoy your Tunis army into Albania
if you ask me. We should be able to guarentee that
you either get into Alb or else take Bul in the spring.
This is done by Bla S Con - Bul. Either Gre will support
Bul and we'll fail (you then retreat into Aeg) which
means Gre didn't bounce Alb, or Gre will bounce Alb
and we'll get Bul.
>From there things are more complex depending on what
Austria does but I think we can probably get Gre and
Bul, possibly Tri depending on if that convoy fails.
Two of those go to you, one to me and unforunately
Eric will take Con back. I can't see anything we can
do to stop that though. The two of them together will
be much weaker after this year though, we can sort
them out then.
What do you think? Good plan? Can you think of anything
better? You've been pretty quiet lately.
Adam.......
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:10 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> I urge you to be very careful about agreeing to
> Raine's suggested moves. They are always heavily
> weighted in his favor. (I try to come up with
> moves where both allies profit; Raine doesn't
> seem to understand that approach.)
You're probably right, I too think that the best
way is to benifit everyone. I'll try and make
sure I don't have to trust him that much in
future.
> I'm at two Centers. Without an ally this year, I'm
> dead. Raine's attitude is wholly unreasonable, and
> Keith just isn't saying enough to make me consider AT.
> That leaves you. Supporting you into Con helps you,
> hurts Raine, and does me no harm, so I see no reason
> not to do it. Lying to you at this point would amount
> to slitting my own throat.
The only reasonable plans I can come up with all leave
Con belonging to you again by the year end anyway by
the look of it. I may take you up on that support if
I can't convince Raine to do something slightly more
sensible, but even then I'm fairly sure I'd want to
be in Bul by the fall which would leave Con open.
> I'd rather get you two, and me one, since getting Raine
> a build will not be good for me, but I'll look into
> both options.
It may be possible to get Raine Gre and Tri, with me
taking Bul and you taking Con back. That's where I'd
like to aim. I really need a build in case Germany
tries to convoy into Lvn so I can build in Mos. Ideally
Tri would be the one we lost if we loose anything.
What do you think Keith will do? If I asked Raine to
convoy Tunis into Alb would be bounce it from Gre,
or will Gre support Bul?
Adam.......
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:12 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
> How would you like to handle the St. Petersburg situation for this move?
Early to be sure, but either a bounce or let you move out as
you described. It looks like you'll need all the help you
can get against GF to me so perhaps it would be better to have
your fleet in Norway than in StP. As long as you're happy
either way then I don't need to decide until the last minute
I guess. What kind of action do you expect F Nwy to be
participating in?
Adam........
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:14 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Please don't believe any scare stories about attacks on Sweden or convoys
> into Livonia or any of that nonsense, from Keith or anyone else. Now that
> you have left Silesia and Berlin is safe, I have no reason at all to
> alienate you. I like the way we started the game and I'd like to
> re-establish that level of agreement.
They are pretty far fetched stories, but it's always more
comforting to hear it from the horses mouth so to speak.
Keith was using some 'revisionism' to use his word when I
called him on it to even describe our movements before
last fall so it hardly lends him credability.
> I figure you want to keep Sweden and reclaim St Pete. And I would sorely
> like Norway; that would give me the base I really need to get my share of
> the English centers. As I look at it, we are now natural allies in
> Scandanavia; we can each get a build to fuel our efforts on our respective
> front lines.
Sounds good to me, I'd definately like StP back as soon as
feasible. England has asked me if I'd mind not bouncing
him in Norway so that his fleet can be used to defend
his homeland. Do you have any preference on that, I
don't think it makes a great deal of difference to me,
I won't be able to reclaim StP until I get a build in
Mos now anyway.
> Also, I will think a bit about the Balkan situation and present a couple of
> ideas. The one idea I've floated to anyone at all was to Eric. I suggested
> he support the Black Sea into Con so that you could take Bulgaria in the
> fall and he could get a build. If that does happen, you could rebuild your
> line something like: A War, A Gal, A Rum, F Bul (sc), F Sev. That might
> allow you to make friends with Eric and put some serious pressure on Adam.
Not bad at all, I think there's a good chance that Eric will get
Con back. If he worked with Keith there's nothing that can be
done to prevent it but he's suggested those moves to me and
they look okay. It's Raine who's mind I really need to understand,
will he continue his dogged persuit of Eric even when he has
more gains to make in Austria is the real question but he's
been silent for a few days now which is a worry.
I would like to work with Eric rather than Raine, but I need
more than just the two units Eric has at the moment so I
think I need Raine's help for at least another year anyway.
Adam.........
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:17 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Good to hear from you. Here are a couple of my thoughts:
> England has asked me if I'd mind not bouncing
> him in Norway so that his fleet can be used to defend
> his homeland. Do you have any preference on that, I
> don't think it makes a great deal of difference to me,
> I won't be able to reclaim StP until I get a build in
> Mos now anyway.
A bounce in Norway is not crucial to my plans. If you can trust Brent
enough to not dive on Sweden, feel free to try for St Pete.
The big thing I want you to know is that I have no problems with you having
two centers in the north. You might not even need a Moscow build to get
there; if you are still in Sweden this fall and I'm in the North Sea, I
would welcome support into Norway. As payback I would support you into St
Pete the following fall. That would give you F St Pete and and empty
Sweden. I'd have fleets in Norway and Denmark, but would be moving Denmark
west. That would give us a very stable line.
> I think there's a good chance that Eric will get Con back.
Good, like I've said about a zillion times, Keith is the one I fear. I'd
rather face an RT juggernaut than a 7-center Austria pushing for Warsaw and
Moscow (or Turkey for that matter.)
> It's Raine who's mind I really need to understand,
> will he continue his dogged persuit of Eric even when he has
> more gains to make in Austria is the real question but he's
> been silent for a few days now which is a worry.
Yes, that is the real question; Raine is the wild-card. I've given up
counting the number of times I've said: "Take Greece, Raine", or "Greece is
where you want to be", or "You can definitely take Greece." Oh well.
The other thing you should know is that I believe Rod will stay out of the
med. He has said as much to both Eric and me.
That's it. I hope you're having a good weekend.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:19 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
> *grin* Hell, I thought I was being kind.
I thought you were being kind, too. :)
I'm really writing because of a letter I received from Adam recently. He
didn't say he agreed or anything, but he did say he liked the idea of bla -
con. I'm not sure if that's good for you or not, but I thought I should
tell you anyhow. He also said he would consider the AR line I proposed, but
didn't say whether or not he'll move out of con.
Also, Raine hasn't written much lately, Brent's written too much, and Rod's
written just the right amount. I hope I'm not tipping my hand here. :)
That's what I know. Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:20 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
When you moved into Tyrolia, I responded pretty quickly. Are you waiting
for me to do the same? :)
I understand that real life can get in the way of dip, but please write if
you can.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:23 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to England in 'gutsy':
> Looks like Germany and Russia have definitely come to some sort of
> agreement, though Steve still claims that Sweden is his next center. Much
> as I'd like to, I don't feel that I can push the attack against Russia until
> there's some semblance of order in the West. Obviously I'm trying to
> negotiate with both of them at this point, but that will probably only last
> until the Spring moves.
I figured that you had some fiarly strong agreement, otherwise you
wouldn't have built against France like you did. Last I knew you were
close with Germany, though I suppose this could change. I expect Germany
to move his fleet to the Baltic Sea because of this, which of course
would be most welcome for me. I can make sure that Russia isn't an issue
for either of you, given a chance like this.
> So, is your current plan to turn all your forces against Russia, or is
> another incursion into Munich planned? Obviously Steve doesn't think so,
> since he left it wide open. If you can keep up the pressure on Russia for a
> year while I get things under control in the Western triangle, I should be
> able to renew the pressure on Russia from the North, and between us we
> should be able to pinch him. Of course, if you have other plans or ideas,
> I'd love to hear them.
I am going to have to consolidate my forces. Russia poses a significant
threat, and I don't expect him to turn away. I don't have any good
ideas. I don't know whether I can trust Italy or not. If I can, I can
repel Russia with little problem. If I can't trust Italy, I may be in
some trouble unless Russia gets off my back.
Austria
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:33 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
Yah, you don't have to tell me whether or not you're going to bounce me,
my moves reamin the same either way. If you do let me back into Norway, it
will be helping to defend North Sea, or attack it if I end up losing it in
the Spring. Obviously I'm hoping that Germany doesn't manage to knock me
out this season, but he'll be able to do it pretty easily if I don't get
another fleet in there to support it. I would suspect that you would
dislike that happening as much as I, as it would be the first step towards
total German dominance of the North.
Thanks for at least considering my proposal. I know I didn't make it easy
on you by surprising you like that last year, but situations change quickly
and it obviously would not behoove me to continue the attack. Best of luck
in figuring out the mess in the Balkans.
Brent
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:34 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
Its been quite a while since I last heard from you, and the last message
was that we weren't connecting at all. You've never responded to my
question about attacking France, so I would guess that that is out. So, for
the moment, my preliminary orders are to continue the attack on Russia as
planned. I feel kind of silly heading East though when its so obvious that
things in the West are not resolved in any meaningful way. I hope to hear
some indication that we still may be able to work together sometime soon.
Brent
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:35 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
Still waiting for that promised increase in press communication. The last
message I have from you is almost a week old. Am I the only one, or is this
a general lack of press to everyone? I think I'd almost be more worried
about the second possibility, because with the situation like it is in the
East, an Italy that isn't talking is an Italy just waiting to be conquered.
Get in contact with me as soon as you can. Thanks.
Brent
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:37 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> The only reasonable plans I can come up with all leave
> Con belonging to you again by the year end anyway by
> the look of it. I may take you up on that support if
> I can't convince Raine to do something slightly more
> sensible, but even then I'm fairly sure I'd want to
> be in Bul by the fall which would leave Con open.
Bla-Con, Ser-Bul, Gal-Bud or Rum, War-Gal, Sev S Gal-Rum or Sev-Rum,
positions you to take Bul and Bud in the Fall.
If Raine orders Tun-Ion-Alb, he'll be able to take Gre and/or
Tri, while I pick up Con as you move Con-Bul/SC. What do
you think?
> What do you think Keith will do? If I asked Raine to
> convoy Tunis into Alb would be bounce it from Gre,
> or will Gre support Bul?
That depends on how he feels about Pie-Ven, and why he and
Raine both tried to take Aeg last Fall. Keith refuses to tell me
anything, so I can't really judge his intentions, his thoughts, or his
plans.
Eric.
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:38 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Sorry about my lack of press. We had company for the weekend, showing
friends the fall foliage here in Maine and went apple-picking today. What a
day to be outside!
Back to Gutsy, I'm willing to move in whichever direction you are. My first
inclination is to pick up Sweden, hopefully without starting a full-blown
war with Russia. You also mentioned "attacking France" but didn't say much
about how.
If you have some good looking plans, please let me know. I'll be here for a
bit tonight and most of the evening (maybe some of the day) tomorrow.
The rest of the board seems pretty silent; write when you can.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:40 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
Well, my question was actually what you would plan as far as an attack on
France, if you could control both of our units and builds. Since you've
said quite often that your goal is to resolve the Western triangle quickly,
I would guess that you're either planning an assault on me or France quite
soon. Hoping as I am that you are still interested in working with me, I'm
trying to get an idea of what you see my part being, when you see things
happening, how you plan to use the three fleets you've built, etc.
Something a bit more long-term than what we've talked about recently. I
realize that lately I've kind of read some things into your motivations that
aren't necessarily the case, and I was looking to give you a chance to
explain where you see things going beyond the next season or two. Hopefully
knowing that will make me feel more comfortable with your style, and then my
responses can make you a bit more comfortable with my style. Don't feel
like things you suggest are written in stone, I'm just trying to get a feel
for where we're heading. Thanks!
Brent
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:41 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Hey there, hope you had a nice weekend away from the game. You haven't
missed much of anything, weekends seem to be very quiet in this game, much
more so than I'm used to.
Anyways, I was wondering if Germany had made any kind of indications
towards you that would indicate whether or not this plan of ours is going to
succeed. So far I've gotten absolutely nothing useful from him, so I assume
he's talking more closely with you. Either that or he really has decided
that we're just going to fight amongst ourselves forever and he can start
looking for centers elsewhere. Somehow I doubt that though.
I've made a request to Russia to let me move StP - Nwy. Of course, from
his perspective I could just as easily be convoying an army to Norway. I
haven't said anything overt about attacking Germany because I didn't want it
getting passed back to him. Russia's response is that he isn't sure whether
he'll bounce me or not, and I've told him he doesn't have to tell me.
Hopefully he won't though, that would give me another fleet capable of
supporting North Sea, which might make our lives easier. Thats all the news
I have, like I said, slow weekend. Talk to you later.
Brent
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:46 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> I like your idea. I have no problem with being down 6/5 as long as my
> prospects are well protected,
OK. Thanks for being flexible! :-)
> but I do have to feel that they are being protected.
I understand. You can maintain armies in Hol and Mun, which I assume is
sufficient protection with DMZs in Bur/Ruh. We could also potentially
DMZ Bel and Hol when the time is right.
> Is there someway we could work it out that I convoy Belgium into
> London?
That's an excellent idea! I'm not sure we can guarantee it, but we
should definitely strive for it. I'm certainly willing to provide
support to Lon in exchange for Bel.
> That way, you can slide into Belgium and we both get a build.
You would just stay even, but we'd be balanced at 6 each.
> If I remember correctly, our
> original split was something like you get lvp, lon, and bel, while I get
> edi, and whatever part of Scandanavia I can snarf.
That sounds good to me, but I'm less concerned about exactly who gets
what than about making sure that we stay even (within one center of each
other) while working together to achieve our goals.
> Adam has already said my fleet
> build looks anti-English; so I think he's comfortable.
I think so too. He told me he's not sure whether he'll bounce StP-Nwy
or let it succeed; I think the bounce is better for us. Have you
discussed this with him?
Rod
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:47 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Thanks for the quick response. I'll try to type fast in the hopes that we
have a chance to chat a bit. I've always found that quick exchanges help me
understand the other player.
Yes, you did ask a question:
> Lip-service to the triple aside, f you were able to
> control both of our builds and moves, what would you
> see as the ideal way to achieve both those goals?
First off, your builds are *exactly* what I would have suggested. That
gives me the assurance and flexibility I need to be effective on both the
French and Russian front.
Eric was right, though, you should have an army in Scan/StP, not just for
your use against Russia, but because you really need the St Pete fleet back
in the West. However, I'm struggling to figure out how to do everything at
once.
As I see it, EG needs:
1) G in the Baltic attacking Sweden and preparing for a Livnonia convoy.
The army can be E or G; doesn't matter to me.
2) A German fleet in Belgium to attack/support action in the channel.
3) Burgundy attacking Picardy or Paris.
4) E in the Irish Sea
5) E in *both* the channel and the North Sea (this is the hard one given my
builds and your position).
6) A Edi in Norway, moving to St Pete.
Obviously, not everything can be done at once, but there is a lot of
potential. Write if you're still there.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:50 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> Anyways, I was wondering if Germany had made any kind of indications
> towards you that would indicate whether or not this plan of ours is going to
> succeed.
A while ago he told me he was considering Ruh S Bel, which of course
would give us problems. I suggested to him that Ruh S Bur-Mun would
make me a lot more comfortable, and that Bel wasn't much of a risk in
the Spring anyway. He seemed receptive to this, but I don't know for
sure what his plans are.
I also suggested to him that he consider advancing to Ska and wait til
Fall to try for Nth, which might make things easier for us in the Spring
(at the expense of possibly endangering Nwy, though it all depends on
the Russian). I think he is instead leaning toward hitting Nth.
> Hopefully he won't though, that would give me another fleet capable of
> supporting North Sea, which might make our lives easier.
That would definitely be a benefit. Swe-Den would be even better, but I
suspect he's not willing to piss of Germany that much.
Rod
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:49 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
Are you willing to tell me what your order is for F Swe? That piece of
information might make things a little easier for me, but if you prefer
not to reveal it I understand.
Rod
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:52 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
Yep, still here. Glad to hear that at least one person agrees with my
builds, getting two builds is rough diplomatically because everybody can
find at least one of them to disagree with. Of course, I've never been one
to complain too much about having builds!
OK, obviously all the goals you laid out can't be achieved at once until
you and I can both add some more units. So, we need to get an idea of which
ones we want to achieve first, and when we hope to achieve the rest. For
this turn 1,2,3, and 6 sound possible. 4 maybe, but I will most likely
bounce with France. 5 definitely can't happen this turn with everything
else going on.
I'm still abit uneasy about having three German fleets in Northern waters
as well. Woud you be willing to make some sort of deal whereby the
Western-most one could be disbanded once its usefulness in attacking France
is at an end. That would make me feel a lot safer. Also, do you feel that
you can commit forces against France at this point? It seems like you were
kind of trying to avoid doing that, and I was wondering if you're still
concerned about Keith.
Brent
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:53 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Read your note: 1,2,3 and 6 sound good to me. That seems to imply:
edi - nth - nwy
nth c edi - nwy
stp s edi - nwy
kie - bal
den s kie - bal
hol - bel
lvp - iri
But, what else?
bel - pic
bur s bel - pic
ruh s hol - bel
Is one option.
Or what? Bur - Mun, Bel - Bur, Ruh - Hol???
And, what about A Lon?
Regarding the extra fleets, I'm quite willing to disband once I get
something done, but that would be a couple of turns off. Or, we could use
my extra fleet as a vanguard into the med. But that depends on where we
place our armies within France.
Next question, is there any reason I suspect Keith's motives? You've
written more than anyone else in this game; is there something you know that
I don't?
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 08 19:35:56 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I hope you had a good weekend. My wife and I took the kids apple-picking
today to we had some good family time; gotta take it when you can.
Okay, here's what I'm thinking:
>> Is there someway we could work it out that I convoy Belgium
>> into London?
>
> That's an excellent idea! I'm not sure we can guarantee it, but
> we should definitely strive for it. I'm certainly willing to provide
> support to Lon in exchange for Bel.
No guarantee any of this would would work, but how about this for the
spring:
===S'03 Germany:
bur - mun
ruh s bur - mun
hol - nth
den s hol - nth
bel - eng - wal
The convoy is there just in case we don't have the chance to talk and you
would rather convoy me than support an attack/convoy of your own.
===S'03 France
Something really cool that makes sense to you and has a good chance of
taking Liverpool in the fall. Honestly, I don't care what. Offhand, I
suggest a supported attack on the Irish Sea, but that is your call. A
convoy could be mighty effective.
Just so you know, I will *not* attack Paris.
===F'03
Depends on the success of the spring, but I bet you understand what I'm
thinking.
Write when you can, but don't kill yourself; I'll probably be going to bed
soon. I'll write more tomorrow; you raise a couple of other important
issues that deserve a response.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 08 19:36:00 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
The initial moves sound correct to me...
[bel - pic
bur s bel - pic
ruh s hol - bel]
Yah, I was thinking more along these lines than the more passive one you
suggested afterwards. The other one could easily be bounced in too many
places, and I know I always hate it when one unexpected bounce causes 50% of
my moves to fail. This one still has a chance to bounce, but less so, and
only if France is already attacking you all out. Which leads to another
question, do you have any idea of what he's planning? I would guess that a
move to Irish is in the cards, but I'm not sure if he plans to get something
going against Italy or if he trusts Raine enough to concentrate fully on me
again now.
[And, what about A Lon?]
Unfortunately, it doesn't have a whole lot to do this turn, other than
remain and guard London. Do you see anything worthwhile for it?
[Regarding the extra fleets, I'm quite willing to disband once I get
something done, but that would be a couple of turns off. Or, we could use
my extra fleet as a vanguard into the med. ]
The disbanding sounds much better to me than having to slowly crawl it
along the coast through what will be primarily English territory correct?
Assuming we can cut through Rod fast enough, Raine should still be involved
in matters in the East.
[Next question, is there any reason I suspect Keith's motives? You've
written more than anyone else in this game; is there something you know that
I don't?]
No, from what I've heard Keith is occupied with defending against Russia.
But of all the players, I feel the least qualified to make predictions about
him. No, what I was really reacting to with that question was the fact that
you didn't mention anything about attacking France until prompted by me,
which struck me as odd considering your previously stated goals.
Brent
From - Mon Oct 08 19:36:01 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
> [bel - pic
> bur s bel - pic
> ruh s hol - bel]
>
> Yah, I was thinking more along these lines than the more passive
> one you suggested afterwards.
Good. That's what I'm thinking too. The other moves still make sense, but
get there a bit more slowly.
> Which leads to another question, do you have any idea of what
> he's planning?
No clue; he's been away for a couple of days and his last letter didn't say
much. BTW, if you've heard from him, I would love a report.
> I would guess that a move to Irish is in the cards, but I'm not sure if
> he plans to get something going against Italy or if he trusts Raine
> enough to concentrate fully on me again now.
Trust isn't the issue here, but I'm 99% sure Rod will not enter the med.
However, Raine really is the big wild-card in the game; he doesn't write
much and when he does write, he appears a bit inflexible. I expect him to
fight it out in Turkey. Though, what I'd really like to see is an attack on
Greece; that's his best move afterall. Write him if you can; that would
free me up a bit more.
And, yes, I would expect mao - iri and eng s mao - iri. He might try a
convoy, but he hasn't indicated such to me.
> Do you see anything worthwhile for it?
Nope. You can either hold or expect a bounce in Wales. You could do
something kind of funny like using *that* army to convoy to Norway while
ordering edi - lvp and lvp - wal, but that's a big question mark?
> The disbanding sounds much better to me than having to slowly crawl it
> along the coast through what will be primarily English territory correct?
Probably, yes, but if I attack Picardy, I'd be in an excellent position to
take Brest in the fall. If that possibility did present itself, I could
move out in the spring while you backfilled from the channel. Might be a
bit tricky, but worth considering.
Write when you can. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 08 19:36:06 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
English builds must have been disappointment to you. Also fleet in Kiel is
telling us that AG have made peace. I still hear people telling me that
you are on your way to Med :-( I hope those talks are not true. I know
that I am not going to move against you. I will only if I have to i.e. if
you really move to Med. I won't react against rumours. Like you said I
have some work to be done in Turkey.
> What do you think of adding 'R'ussia to the 'R' alliance? He can help you in
> Turkey, and his position in Austria will eventually give you the
> opportunity for gains there as well. And if Russia grows, I can use him
> against E/G. As long as he does not
> become a threat to us, I think it is in our best interests to see Russia do well.
I'd love to have Russia on my side. I am not able to hold Con without help
from Russia. If I lose Con and Russia is not on my side it means that
Turkey will grow. There might be a problem with RI 'cause Russia would
like me to attack Austria and I would like to finish Turkey while it is
possible.
About Piedmont:
---------------
I am not going to use my army in Venice against anyone. It will be there
just to make silly moves to secure my peace of mind. Is there something
you want me to do with it? Like Ven-Pie? I am certainly going to inform
you if I am going to move to Pie. Before I make my decision I'd like to
hear your opinion. I really don't want to make you unhappy. Oh, and in
case I move to Pie (if we agree about it) my fleets are not moving against
you. If you have something important to do with your army in Mar
(something else than Mar-Pie) and you don't want me to move to Pie just
let me know. I have no desire to move to Pie.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 08 19:36:30 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
My apologies for the long silence. I hope I am not facing FA due to my
long silent period. Please don't take my silence personal. Ask from others
and you'll hear that Italy has lost his ability to communicate...
> I don't know what to do. If you do not attack me, then Russia's attack
> will not be effective.
I am certainly NOT going to attack you! I am going to need help from you
and Russia if I want to keep Con alive. You are my #1 ally. I am afraid of
lack of Russian help to me in Con. He wants me to attack you and I don't
want to. So it might come true that I lose Con.
> But, should he be encouraged to defend against
> Germany, or should I just help Germany eliminate him if I get the
> chance?
This might be a good idea. We could try to go for strong AGI
alliance. That should benefit us all. German build was good for you (us
too). I have no idea if you have talked about peace with Steve but I would
like it.
> It seems like you should get all of the Turkish centers, but how
> are we going to get them? If Russia gets out of Serbia I would be happy
> to help you take back or hold Constantinople. You are going to need help
> to stay there. I don't know if Russia is willing. He might attack
> Bulgaria. You could help him, but this means that Turkey will likely be
> able to build, something you surely do not want.
I am not going to help Adam against you. I don't want Eric to have a
build. There I need your help (and Adam's too). I think I can get your
help more easily than Adam's. Adam wants me to convoy to Albania or
somegthing like that. I am not going to do it. I try to get his help
otherwise.
> What is your take on all this?
I would like to
Ion-Eas
Nap-Ion
Tun hold
Ven (just tell me what you want, make it clear, please remember that
there is a stupic finn trying to figure out your intensions :-)
Con H (support would be cut anyway)
Now other moves are clear but Con is difficult. I would like to ask you to
not move to Aeg. That might destroy my fleet in Con 'cause Aeg is most
likely going to be the only unoccupied space to retreat to.
May I ask you to Bul S Con? I understand that you might have something
better to do with your army in Bul but if you could confirm the support or
lack of it that would be great.
I hope you don't ask me to move Tun-Naf 'cause I would like to convoy Tun
to Turkey.
Raine
Ps. If I hear nothing from you I'll move like I said above and Ven H/-Pie.
I need to talk with France about Piedmont.
Plan B:
-------
If you have some ides how to keep Eric down on 2 and to keep AI as strong
as possible let me know. My main goal is to keep Eric on 2 and to keep us
strong.
From - Mon Oct 08 19:36:37 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Apologies for the silence. Brent already gave my death sentece due to lack
of press... I hope you are online today so that we can talk a lot.
I will give detailed plan of my intensions anyway but I _do_ hope to hear
from you.
My goal is clear:
-to keep Eric down on 2 SC's
-to keep one Turkish center (either you or I need to have one)
-to keep Austria from growing
-to keep you from losing centers!
--you are in danger in north there seems to be EG (to my eyes at
least) and that is not good for your)
> Wow, it's complicated looking in the Balkans isn't
> it? I don't know how well we're going to be able to
> do but I think we should be able to guarentee you
> a build and probably get me one too. It's not going
> to be easy though and since we can't hold Con,
> we're going to have to move it out.
My plan is to
-make sure Keith won't move to Aeg.
--I need space to retreat to fro Con
-Ion-Eas
-Nap-Ion
-Tun H
-I don't know about Ven yet.
Could you cut support from Ankara? I know you might have some other things
in your mind but please answer this question. It helps me to decide what
to do. No matter what Eric does it would be good move.
1) Ank-Con (support from Smy) -> you get Ankara
2) Smy-Con (support from Ank) -> I'll get Con
if you are sure that you can move Sev-Arm that would be great you should
get Ankara for sure. I'll cut possible supports in fall 'cause I need to
get one Turkish center too.
About attacking Austria:
------------------------
>From my point of view it is not worth it. I would gain nothing. I would
get one center but I would lose Con _and_ Eric is getting a build that is
something I don't want to. I think we should destroy Turkey while we can
and then crush Austria between us.
> >From there things are more complex depending on what
> Austria does but I think we can probably get Gre and
> Bul, possibly Tri depending on if that convoy fails.
> Two of those go to you, one to me and unforunately
> Eric will take Con back. I can't see anything we can
> do to stop that though. The two of them together will
> be much weaker after this year though, we can sort
> them out then.
I am not sure that Eric will get Con back. If you can make a move to Ank
that is enough. You either end up in Ankara or I keep Con. I am willing to
support you to Ankara in fall if it is needed (it might well be so).
> What do you think? Good plan? Can you think of anything
> better? You've been pretty quiet lately.
I feel bad for the silence. I hope people realize that I have been silent
to all of you nothing personal. But what I think of the future:
-you probably need to gave up Serbia.
-you could compensate it with Ankara.
-Eric gets down to one (or with luck down to zero)
-I will keep Con
Austria would get a build _but_ he is still between us. While Eric is out
of the way we could concetrate fully on Austria.
My suggestion:
Con H (no need to support anything 'cause it'll be cut anyway)
Ion-Eas
Nap-Ion
Tun H
Ven H ?
Your goal is to make sure you don't get Ser destroyed.
Bla-Ank, I could support this if you want
Sev s ser-rum or Sev-Arm
the rest of your moves are to make sure you are not losing Rumania.
for example
War s Gal
Gal s Ser-Rum
Ser-Rum
You could then try to fool Keith to think that you are on his side once
again.
Let me hear what you have to say. I am open to your proposals. Although I
think it would be a good shot to:
1)destroy Eric
2)Crunch Keith between us
Raine
From - Mon Oct 08 19:36:42 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
My apologies. I was greed enough to try to get Con. One could claim
Russia and Austria also. Without their help I wouldn't be there.
Adam is trying very hard to get me to attack Keith. That would mean a
build for you as you would get Con back. How would we make up TI relations
in such situation?
Could I ask you to build an army instead of fleet? Is it possible that you
could leave me free to attack west?
Raine
From - Mon Oct 08 19:36:43 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
Oh man, I have been way too busy to play high rated game as it should be
played. My apologies for lack of press. You are not the only one who I
have neglected.
So much to talk about, let's start from west. I know about western triple
talks and I think I know who is against it and who is not. That French
move from London was still a surprise. Rod must have been cursing when he
saw the moves (and the builds). I think you have made peace with Keith. I
haven't heard from Keith but I think it is clever for both of you. Your
build implies it too. Moving to Bal? You are still in good position
against France. Rod cannot force you out of Bur.
Would you like to see Venice-Piedmont? Or do you want to kill Rod with EG
alliance :-)
East:
-----
You could see from my moves that I have been not very talkative lately.
Thanks for my lucky guess I got Con in the end. Still, what a mess! Alliances
come and alliances go. I think Adam made a huge mistake. He is facing
resistance in north and now Keith is most probably willing to attack Adam
too.
What do you think of GAI alliance? One possible way for me is to try to
take Eric out. Then to head with full forces to west. I could do that in
GAI well. Maybe I should make a note to both of you to have some
discussion.
Raine
Ps. Steve I would like to hear your comments of the western side too. So
far I have had to listen to other to get the picture of west.
From - Mon Oct 08 19:36:48 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria and Germany in
'gutsy':
Sirs, Keith, Steve,
I have mentioned to both of you of the possible co-operation between us.
I think you two should make peace (I hope you already have done so) and
start to co-operate (with me! :-) .
In the long run AG should be able to knock Russia out. Steve could use
Brent as a helper as long as Brent can give some assistance. EG might
co-operate against France too. I would come to western theatre after I had
eliminated Eric with help from Keith. I am willing to use my army in
Venice immediately against France.
I know this ain't this simple as I say it. But I believe that in the long
run our triple alliance should be the winner.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 08 19:36:49 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Brent forgive me. No you are not the only one I haven't been talking to. I
have been too busy to play high rated game, I know that. I have tried to
talk to my neighbours in my limited time. I hope you understand my
priorities.
Back to business. Congratulations for the good job in getting to 5 SC's
after the slow start. Wonderful diplomacy I guess. I have heard these
talks of EFG and I think that has been your diplomatic weapon. Especially
against France. If I understood right the main reason to talk about EFG
was to respond to RA(I) alliance. Now there ain't that reasoning anymore
and you should beware of French moves. You are better positioned but Rod
is still in English Channel.
Are you in good terms with Steve? Is there a possibility of three way
co-operation against Rod?
Raine
From - Mon Oct 08 19:36:52 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
The possibility for such cooperation is there, but I have several
concerns. One, you seem to be quite occupied in the East right now. In
order for such cooperation to work, you would need to make a pretty big
heading change in bringing fleets Westward. Are you willing to do that?
Two, I'm a bit worried about the prospect of allying closely with someone
who doesn't have enough time to commit to this game. Alliances are based on
strong communication, and I'm afraid at this point that if we were to ally
that we wouldn't have that. If you can work to alleviate those concerns, I
can certainly see possibilities for forming an EGI alliance. Let me know
what you think.
Brent
From - Mon Oct 08 19:36:51 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
[No clue; he's been away for a couple of days and his last letter didn't say
much. BTW, if you've heard from him, I would love a report.]
Yah, I haven't heard from him lately either. Last I heard from him, he
was still talking mostly about the Western triple, which lead me to believe
that he was discussing more with you.
[Trust isn't the issue here, but I'm 99% sure Rod will not enter the med.]
Really? Wow, thats pretty sure!
[You can either hold or expect a bounce in Wales.]
I can't see him taking the risk on such a convoy, and if he did, I think
he'd be almost as likely to attempt it to London as he would Wales. Wales
is too obvious and likely to be defended in my opinion.
[Probably, yes, but if I attack Picardy, I'd be in an excellent position to
take Brest in the fall.]
I assume you mean Fall a year from now rather than Fall a season from now.
I don't see how you would be able to take Brest any sooner than that. Am I
missing something?
At this point, my orders stand as described in your previous message, let
me know if there are any changes.
Brent
From - Mon Oct 08 19:36:57 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
I start to behave :-)
> The possibility for such cooperation is there, but I have several
> concerns. One, you seem to be quite occupied in the East right now. In
> order for such cooperation to work, you would need to make a pretty big
> heading change in bringing fleets Westward. Are you willing to do that?
It is possible. More probable would be using my army/armies. You are right
about my fleets they need time to get westward.
> Two, I'm a bit worried about the prospect of allying closely with someone
> who doesn't have enough time to commit to this game. Alliances are based on
> strong communication, and I'm afraid at this point that if we were to ally
> that we wouldn't have that. If you can work to alleviate those concerns, I
> can certainly see possibilities for forming an EGI alliance. Let me know
> what you think.
I alleviate, I do by answering you. I can see possibilities in forming
EGI too, certainly. Now that agree about it could you tell me more? I
mean, your builds look to me like you are already going against Rod. You
can hide your intensions from me if you want. I understand your
reasonings. I wouldn't like to tell my intensions to silent person. I just
try to get our negotation back to level it needs to be. So would you be
willing to reveal your intensions? Your builds are telling me that you are
on your way against Rod. What I don't know yet is if Steve is with you. My
understanding is that you two have co-operated well so far. So I believe
that you are heading towards Rod. Would you like to confirm? Is there
something I could do? I am open to your proposals.
Should we talk between press to EGI?
Raine
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:00 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
> Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> My apologies. I was greed enough to try to get Con. One could claim
> Russia and Austria also. Without their help I wouldn't be there.
("I was greedy enough..." and "One could blame" or "One could claim
that Russia and Austria share the responsibility also.")
> Adam is trying very hard to get me to attack Keith. That would mean a
> build for you as you would get Con back. How would we make up TI
> relations in such situation?
If you move Con-Aeg this Spring, and Ion S Aeg-Gre this Fall without
ordering Ion-EMed, there wouldn't be a problem in our relationship.
> Could I ask you to build an army instead of fleet? Is it possible that you
> could leave me free to attack west?
I've been trying to get you to attack France since my first letter to you.
Eric.
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:02 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> My goal is clear:
> -to keep Eric down on 2 SC's
I'm not sure why you think this is so important. Can you try
to explain it to me? Isn't your own growth more important
than whatever grudge you seem to have against Eric?
> -to keep one Turkish center (either you or I need to have one)
Well this is pretty much the same as the last one, unless
you think Keith might take one.
> -to keep Austria from growing
Good, we agree on this one at least.
> -to keep you from losing centers!
> --you are in danger in north there seems to be EG (to my eyes at
> least) and that is not good for your)
I really need a build in case Brent and Steve are comming
after me. I think it's unlikely but a build in A Mos should
keep my problems down to just small ones at least.
> My plan is to
> -make sure Keith won't move to Aeg.
> --I need space to retreat to fro Con
Yeah, I was thinking that Aeg would perhaps be a good
place to move F Con to. It ensures you get Greece for
a start.
> -Ion-Eas
> -Nap-Ion
> -Tun H
> -I don't know about Ven yet.
I really think your best moves are to ignore Eric for now,
he's not a danger and I don't understand why you're so
determined to take his distant supply centers when there
are some easier and closer to home. If I were you I'd
definately try to convoy Tun to Alb and I'd probably
bounce in Tri and I'd expect to get at least one of,
probably both of, Gre and Tri this fall. Bul would probably
fall to me too. I can't understand what's so important
about keeping Turkey down at two SC's, three SC's isn't
exacly going to challenge your six or seven center
dominance in the area next year is it?
> Could you cut support from Ankara?
I don't know yet, probably not to be honest. I'll be needing
to use all my units against Keith if you are going to continue
to refuse to help me against him.
> if you are sure that you can move Sev-Arm that would be great you should
> get Ankara for sure.
I see no threat from Eric at all, unless you can make me understand
why you are so scared of him that you're unwilling to take on
Keith I'll have to take whatever support I can get from Eric
and move on Keith will all the force I can muster. I was
hoping you'd want to help out and take some easy Austrian
centers but it seems you're fixated on Eric for some reason
which you can't properly explain.
> About attacking Austria:
> ------------------------
> From my point of view it is not worth it. I would gain nothing.
You would gain at least one of, probably both of, Tri and Gre
this year. Next year we would both have an easy ride as we
fought against two powers who are at two or three centers each.
> I would get one center but I would lose Con
You would get a build since you would gain two and lose only one.
> _and_ Eric is getting a build that is something I don't want to.
(Should be too not to)
I still don't understand why it's so important to you that
you fight a two center Turkey next year when you alone
(never mind both of us together) so completely outnumber
him either way.
> I think we should destroy Turkey while we can
> and then crush Austria between us.
I think we should neutralize the most powerful threat to
us, Kieth, and worry about complete elimation of both these
powers later when we get around to it and when we're both
secure. To worry about stamping on the spider scuttling
around your feet while ignoring the Lion roaring from
the trees and poised to jump seems foolish to me.
> I am not sure that Eric will get Con back.
I am sure he will unless you help attack Austria since
I will need all my force to concentrate on him, possibly
even helping Eric since he is the only one offering to
help me with my plans.
> If you can make a move to Ank
> that is enough. You either end up in Ankara or I keep Con. I am willing to
> support you to Ankara in fall if it is needed (it might well be so).
You will have nowhere to support from, even if Con was still
occupied by you it's support would be cut for sure.
> Austria would get a build _but_ he is still between us.
The idea of Austria building is surely a lot more frightening
than Eric building. If Eric managed to regain Con but Keith
was down to three SC's himself we'd have an easy battle
for the next two years. Even if we completely erradicated
Eric while letting Keith grow by even one center we'd
have a fear inspiring enemy on our hands. I can't possibly
allow this.
> While Eric is out of the way we could concetrate fully on Austria.
> You could then try to fool Keith to think that you are on his side once
> again.
There's no way Keith would fall for it, and he has said as
much in the press we have exchanged this phase.
> Let me hear what you have to say. I am open to your proposals. Although I
> think it would be a good shot to:
> 1)destroy Eric
> 2)Crunch Keith between us
Please please explain why the order that we do this is so important
to you since it's clear to anyone who even just counts supply centers
that Eric is not even a fraction of the threat that Keith is to
either of us. Keith is twice the size of Eric, it's surely twice
as important that the threat he represents be removed, no?
Adam..............
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:04 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> Are you willing to tell me what your order is for F Swe? That piece of
> information might make things a little easier for me, but if you prefer
> not to reveal it I understand.
If you explain why it makes a difference I'll tell you, at the
moment I still haven't decided and may well flip a coin to
decide between Hold and - Nwy.
Adam...........
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:05 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Bla-Con, Ser-Bul, Gal-Bud or Rum, War-Gal, Sev S Gal-Rum or Sev-Rum,
> positions you to take Bul and Bud in the Fall.
> If Raine orders Tun-Ion-Alb, he'll be able to take Gre and/or
> Tri, while I pick up Con as you move Con-Bul/SC. What do
> you think?
I have finally heard from Raine and he's doing exactly as
I feared, talking about dealing with Keith after you are
eliminated. I've asked him why this is so important,
why he's worrying about the spider running between
his legs while the Austrian lion roars from the near
jungle posed in a pouncing position. I've told him
that he will get no support from me unless he attacks
Austria. I've told him I'll support you instead if he
doesn't attack Austria. I've, frankly, probably gone
to far verging on threat rather than persuasion but
I suspect it's the only way to make him understand.
The worry will be that we may face a united IA if that
goes too wrong.
> That depends on how he feels about Pie-Ven, and why he and
> Raine both tried to take Aeg last Fall.
I'm pretty sure that was a genine mistake and miscommunication.
The AIR orders were arrranged very last minute and Raine, with
typical infelxability, demanded various things at the last
minute.
> Keith refuses to tell me
> anything, so I can't really judge his intentions, his thoughts, or his
> plans.
That sounds like Keith all right.
Adam...........
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:07 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
> Yah, you don't have to tell me whether or not you're going to bounce me,
> my moves reamin the same either way. If you do let me back into Norway, it
> will be helping to defend North Sea, or attack it if I end up losing it in
> the Spring. Obviously I'm hoping that Germany doesn't manage to knock me
> out this season, but he'll be able to do it pretty easily if I don't get
> another fleet in there to support it.
That seems true enough, which is why I'm thinking of letting you
into Norway at the moment.
> Thanks for at least considering my proposal. I know I didn't make it easy
> on you by surprising you like that last year, but situations change quickly
> and it obviously would not behoove me to continue the attack. Best of luck
> in figuring out the mess in the Balkans.
Yeah, I think I'll need it. Man, have you ever known anybody
as inflexible as Raine? I'm having to resort to almost threatening
him to get him to consider even one move that's not directly
in his own interest - even in trade for some that are.
Adam...........
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:08 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
Steve,
> The big thing I want you to know is that I have no problems with you having
> two centers in the north. You might not even need a Moscow build to get
> there; if you are still in Sweden this fall and I'm in the North Sea, I
> would welcome support into Norway. As payback I would support you into St
> Pete the following fall.
This may be a reasonable plan. Things are so cloudy and unsure
in the south that I'm having trouble giving proper consideration
to my one unit north of Mos, I'd have to talk about it with
you during the fall.
> That would give you F St Pete and and empty
> Sweden. I'd have fleets in Norway and Denmark, but would be moving Denmark
> west. That would give us a very stable line.
Almost the DMZ of Scandanavia that Brent originally wanted!
> Good, like I've said about a zillion times, Keith is the one I fear. I'd
> rather face an RT juggernaut than a 7-center Austria pushing for Warsaw and
> Moscow (or Turkey for that matter.)
I think Eric being down to two centers already probably precludes
a typical juggernaught anyway. I too fear a large Austria which
is why I'm so confused that Raine seems determined to Eliminate
First and worry about other threats later. He's obsessing over
the rat running around in his kitchen while I Tiger is eating
his couch.
> Yes, that is the real question; Raine is the wild-card. I've given up
> counting the number of times I've said: "Take Greece, Raine", or "Greece is
> where you want to be", or "You can definitely take Greece." Oh well.
I've practically threatened him now. Work with me in Austria or
I'll have to take Eric's help there instead. Hopefully I can
jolt him into noticing he's got a seven center Austria on
his borders. You'd think he'd have noticed!
> The other thing you should know is that I believe Rod will stay out of the
> med. He has said as much to both Eric and me.
That ties in with what I was expecting too. Rod seems very intereted
in why my move with F Swe will be, so I expect he's concentrating
his attention on the north.
Adam............
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:10 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Yes, when everyone sends you press that says they don't know what they
> are doing, it means that they are attacking you. Trust me.
Or that they are genuinely still sorting it out. The last
set of moves left a lot of confusion in their wake. Press
seems to be settling down a little now and I'm still not
as convinced as you'd like that England and Germany will
be working together. However, I also don't think it will
matter a great deal so long as I can get a build for A Mos
there's no much they can take that they can't take from
me anyway - namely F Swe.
> Good evidence for EG come from England's builds.
I think Brent may well have been hoping for, if not quite
expecting an EG against F battle now. Germany's moves before
we distracted him would have indicated that too.
> Germany now has the gift of being in Burgundy. Burgundy is hard
> to capture, and he will not give it up lightly, I don't think.
France has certainly indicated that he expects Germany to leave
Bur this spring. That could well be Steve's lie of course, but
again it shows a coherence that's hard to fake if you're lying.
> Italy has made it clear that he does not want to attack France. Now, if
> EG attack France, I don't know what Italy will do. It might be wise for
> him to try to prop France up rather than stealing supply centers from
> behind France. Without you as a power in the North, Italy will not be
> able to hold off EG in the Med. In any case, Italy certainly isn't going
> to attack you. How could he?
I think I must have said somebody's name wrong. Maybe I meant Steve
or Brent, who knows, I can't remember. Raine is very inflexible,
very one-minded. This may be a good thing that makes him quite
predictable but it's not helping me negotiate with him.
> I am sure he was pleased. You've saved his losing Berlin and Munich, at
> least. Maybe Germany will switch sides once again , back to allying wiht
> France and attacking England as you think. I just don't see it. Look
> how Germany's units are placed.
Look at the size of Steve's navy! Who else could he realistically
use all those boats against?
> > This sounds nice too. I think I can probably convince Italy
> > to sceede Con to me and Ank was already mine. Smy and Gre go
> > to him of course.
>
> I don't see you you're going to do it. Italy can move another fleet
> East, but if you have to contend with me and Turkey, can you be sure of
> any gains and no losses?
It's very complicated in the south but I think that RI vs AT would
be able to ensure some gains, not neccasairily for Russia but
RI in general which would means AT makes loses which would
in turn mean gainst for RI next year. I think. We'll see.
Incidentally, I think this is the first time I've had so much
conversation with a country who's supply centers I've so
recently taken. Thank you, it's interesting.
Adam..........
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:14 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> The worry will be that we may face a united IA if that
> goes too wrong.
Do you really think Raine will be able to arrange a productive
relationship with Keith?
> I'm pretty sure that was a genine mistake and miscommunication.
> The AIR orders were arrranged very last minute and Raine, with
> typical infelxability, demanded various things at the last minute.
It may have been an accident, but it's bound to generate distrust.
I did hear from Raine this morning. He asked if I'd let him leave in
peace if he attacked Keith. I told him that as long as F Con moves
to Gre and he doesn't move Ion east, we could work together. He
also asked if I'd build an Army, rather than a Fleet, but I didn't
address that issue.
Eric.
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:15 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> I hope you had a good weekend. My wife and I took the kids apple-picking
> today to we had some good family time; gotta take it when you can.
Sounds like fun! I hung out with friends at a weekend "retreat". We had cots and
indoor plumbing, so it wasn't really "roughing it", but even so I didn't get quite
enough sleep. :-)
> No guarantee any of this would would work, but how about this for the
> spring:
Sounds good to me. I'm leaning toward Pic-Wal. If it works, we can guarantee Lon
for you in the Fall. I'm happy to wait til next year to secure Lvp (it would be far
from a sure thing this year anyway) if we can make sure that you get Lon and I get Bel.
> Just so you know, I will *not* attack Paris.
I know. I'm not paranoid this season. I would probably be paranoid *next* season
if for some reason Bur-Mun fails, but I very much doubt that will be the case.
Rod
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:17 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> English builds must have been disappointment to you.
Yes. He claims it was "defensive", which is understandable, but I still don't like
it. I fear that he has left himself too vulnerable to Germany.
> Also fleet in Kiel is telling us that AG have made peace.
I think you're right.
> I still hear people telling me that
> you are on your way to Med :-( I hope those talks are not true.
Why would they tell you this? Are these people in any position to actually know
what my plans are?
> I know that I am not going to move against you.
I am not going to move against you either. I would gain nothing, and it would make
me vulnerable to my neighbors. I'm not that foolish.
> I won't react against rumours.
That's the best policy. Just so you know, Adam has been beset with rumours as well:
Austria is telling him that EG will attack him. Clearly, that just serves Austria's
interests, whether it's true or not. I know that it's not true, and I told Adam so.
I'm glad to hear that you also recognize when rumours are untrue.
> There might be a problem with RI 'cause Russia would
> like me to attack Austria and I would like to finish Turkey while it is
> possible.
That is also what Adam told me: He wants to focus on Austria while you want to focus
on Turkey. I hope that you and he will find some way to work together, because it
would benefit you both - and then you and he can help me in the north.
> It will be there just to make silly moves to secure my peace of mind.
Why silly moves? Use *sensible* moves to secure your peace of mind.
> Is there something you want me to do with it?
I think you should Hold. That shouldn't disturb anybody, and it protects against a
possible Austrian threat.
> Like Ven-Pie?
I was very happy to see you withdraw from Pie. Why would you want to annoy me again?
> If you have something important to do with your army in Mar
> (something else than Mar-Pie) and you don't want me to move to Pie just
> let me know.
I do have something else to do with A Mar, and I do not want you to move to Pie.
Rod
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:18 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> If you explain why it makes a difference I'll tell you, at the
> moment I still haven't decided and may well flip a coin to
> decide between Hold and - Nwy.
Both E and G have sent me proposals for attacking the other. I think I already know
which way I'm going to go, but knowing your plans for F Swe will help me evaluate the
ramifications of my decision.
If you really don't care whether you hit Nwy or Hold, perhaps I could tell you which
I might prefer. Of course, we should hold our conversations in the strictest
confidence regardless. We might side with E or G for a time, but our long-term goal
should be to grow at their expense. I realize that you have other priorities right
now, but if you can help me grow in the north now, it makes things easier for you
when you're ready to make your own push in the north.
Rod
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:20 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Thanks for the corrections in my language.
I try to explain my priorities. The main point is position. Austria is
between us and he is unable to beat us when we attack him together as long
as he doesn't have Serbia, Rumania and Bulgaria. He simply doesn't have
the power to attack both of us. I understand your point of view. Your
motivation is clear. You must be unsure of my help after Turkey is gone.
What can I do to guarantee that for you? I think I have played very open
game and done like we have agreed. I hope you could think of my plan from
my point of view, please. It makes sence for me to take Turkey out first
and then we could take Keith out. If you could trust me 100%, would it be
clever for you to first attack Eric and then Keith. Eric is gone if we
work together that is a fact. Then if you can count on my help shoudn't
Keith fall between us?
> I'm not sure why you think this is so important. Can you try
> to explain it to me? Isn't your own growth more important
> than whatever grudge you seem to have against Eric?
I have absolutely no grudge against Eric. It is just that I believe that
we have a good oppotunity to get rid of one common neighbour and then
concentrate on the one that is between us. This was our original plan,
right?
> > -to keep Austria from growing
>
> Good, we agree on this one at least.
Great :-)
> I really need a build in case Brent and Steve are comming
> after me. I think it's unlikely but a build in A Mos should
> keep my problems down to just small ones at least.
I have been away lately so I don't have a clear picture of what is going
to happen in west. I assume that there is going to be a fight between them
and that is good for you. Then you should not be afraid of losing Sweden.
Another possiblity is that EG make alliance and co-operate against you
_and_ Rod. That wouldn't be nice at all. I don't think Steve is helping
Brent against you. You just gave up your chance to get Berlin for free.
That is something. Steve won't forget it.
> Yeah, I was thinking that Aeg would perhaps be a good
> place to move F Con to. It ensures you get Greece for
> a start.
I won't move there 'cause Keith might bounce in there and that would
destroy my fleet. Also if Keith is going to move there he most prbably
wants a bounce 'cause why an earth he would move away from Greece.
> > Could you cut support from Ankara?
>
> I don't know yet, probably not to be honest. I'll be needing
> to use all my units against Keith if you are going to continue
> to refuse to help me against him.
What do you think of my plan? Remember, that you can count on my help.
Please think of this from my point of view. I think I am making the best
moves for my country by attacking Turkey with you and then taking Austria
out.
> I see no threat from Eric at all, unless you can make me understand
> why you are so scared of him that you're unwilling to take on
> Keith I'll have to take whatever support I can get from Eric
> and move on Keith will all the force I can muster. I was
> hoping you'd want to help out and take some easy Austrian
> centers but it seems you're fixated on Eric for some reason
> which you can't properly explain.
I hope I made sense above. If not then let's talk about it.
> > I would get one center but I would lose Con
>
> You would get a build since you would gain two and lose only one.
How could I get two?
> I think we should neutralize the most powerful threat to
> us, Kieth, and worry about complete elimation of both these
> powers later when we get around to it and when we're both
> secure. To worry about stamping on the spider scuttling
> around your feet while ignoring the Lion roaring from
> the trees and poised to jump seems foolish to me.
The lion is between us. And he has two lions around him, right?
> I am sure he will unless you help attack Austria since
> I will need all my force to concentrate on him, possibly
> even helping Eric since he is the only one offering to
> help me with my plans.
I am not saying that I do not offer help to you. I think my plan is good
for both of us.
> You will have nowhere to support from, even if Con was still
> occupied by you it's support would be cut for sure.
Let's take the assumption of Sev-Arm. It means you should support yourself
to Rumania. That means your army in Serbia ends up to Rumania or is in
Serbia.
Let's see if you move to Ank. There are two possiblities (I cannot believe
that Eric would bounce you from Armenia that is simply out of the
question)
1) You get there 'cause Eric supported Ank-Con.
Situation
Russia in Ankara and Armenia
Turkey in Con and Smy
Italy in Aeg and Eas
2) you cut Eric's support
Situation
Russia in Bla and Armenia
Turkey in Ank and Smy
Italy in Con and Eas
In both cases you would get one center from Turkey. You would lose Serbia
but Turkey is also dead and we could concentrate on Austria with all our
forces.
> There's no way Keith would fall for it, and he has said as
> much in the press we have exchanged this phase.
Even if Keith is not falling to this he is history if we follow my plan.
I understand your desire to attack Austria first but is there a hole in my
plan? The result should be that both Turkey and Austria will fall, right?
> Please please explain why the order that we do this is so important
> to you since it's clear to anyone who even just counts supply centers
> that Eric is not even a fraction of the threat that Keith is to
> either of us. Keith is twice the size of Eric, it's surely twice
> as important that the threat he represents be removed, no?
If we attack Keith first there will be AT for sure and we lose momentum by
first attacking Keith and then attacking Eric and then moving all the way
to west. Western powers are for sure on our backdoors when they see what
we are doing.
By attacking Eric first we head west from former Turkey and go against
western powers by attacking Keith. Then it is much shorter way to attack
the EFG.
Would you please tell me what is wrong with my plan? Is there some
misunderstanding? The result should be the same in both plans but my plan
is better in tempo. Although it was the original plan, right?
Raine
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:26 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
Steven has confirmed that he's planning Ruh S Bur-Mun, so I think we have a real
shot at succeeding. I will order Eng S Nth, Pic S Edi-Bel, Mar-Bur, Spa-Gas, MAO-Iri.
I asked Russia about F Swe, and he told me he's going to "flip a coin" between
Swe H and Swe-Nwy.
Rod
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:31 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Sounds good. He's told me that he plans Bel - Pic with support from
Burgundy, which would also mean success for the convoy, so assuming he's
not lying to both of us, we should be in good shape. Of course, he
could be planning Hol - Bel with support from Ruhr... Well, there's not
much we can do about that if he is. If I had to bet, I would guess that
he's telling the truth to you. Lets hope for the best!
Brent
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:34 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I have been way too silent to play this high rated game properly. I want
you to know this. It gives you some background to know what I am thinking
and why am I so unsure of everything.
> > I still hear people telling me that
> > you are on your way to Med :-( I hope those talks are not true.
>
> Why would they tell you this? Are these people in any position to actually
> know what my plans are?
Well, yes. If the information source is from west it might well be true
according to rumours of western triple. If the info comes from east it
might be true 'cause your 'natural' allies are in east. I hate the word
'natural' in this sense but you know what I mean.
> > I know that I am not going to move against you.
>
> I am not going to move against you either. I would gain nothing, and it would
> make me vulnerable to my neighbors. I'm not that foolish.
I know that you should not move against me. There is simply too much to
lose and too little to win. Like I said I have been not very talkative
lately and I am unsure what happens. So I don't know for sure if there is
EFG for example.
> That's the best policy. Just so you know, Adam has been beset with rumours as
> well: Austria is telling him that EG will attack him. Clearly, that
> just serves Austria's interests, whether it's true or not. I know that
> it's not true, and I told Adam so.
> I'm glad to hear that you also recognize when rumours are untrue.
EG attack against R would make sense in EFG triple. Again it makes no
sense for you to go into that kind of triple. Still you moved away from
London that made so sense to me :-O
> That is also what Adam told me: He wants to focus on Austria while you want to
> focus on Turkey. I hope that you and he will find some way to work
> together, because it would benefit you both - and then you and he can
> help me in the north.
I wonder why you say that I could help you in north? I cannot see your
motive here. You should not want me to come too strong then I could be a
threat to you. Could you explain?
> Why silly moves? Use *sensible* moves to secure your peace of mind.
Well, Ven-Pie would be sensible in a way that it would cover me from EFG
triple. Hey, I know it is stupid to think that you would go into western
triple at the moment but you are under pressure.
> I think you should Hold. That shouldn't disturb anybody, and it protects
> against a possible Austrian threat.
To be honest I am more concerned of you than Austria.
> I was very happy to see you withdraw from Pie. Why would you want to annoy me
> again?
I don't want to annoy you! That is why I want to talk about Ven-Pie in
advance. If we'd agree a bounce in Pie that would made me feel secure.
> I do have something else to do with A Mar, and I do not want you to move to Pie.
Ok, I got it you don't want me to move to Pie. Could you clarify your
intensions with Mar? I mean, it would help if I knew that you are doing
there. Also that would bring some goodwill between us if it turns out to
be true what you say about Mar.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:44 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> I have been way too silent to play this high rated game properly.
I guess you'll just have to correct that then, eh? :-)
> If the information source is from west it might well be true
> according to rumours of western triple.
If it were true (Western Triple), they wouldn't tell you about it.
> If the info comes from east it
> might be true 'cause your 'natural' allies are in east.
Or it might be false because your 'natural' enemies are in the east, and they want
to mislead you.
> I know that you should not move against me.
I'm glad that we agree. :-)
> EG attack against R would make sense in EFG triple.
Yes, it would. But building fleets in Lvp and Kie would NOT make sense in an EFG triple.
> Still you moved away from London that made so sense to me :-O
I understand your concern about that. I moved out of Lon because I thought it was
necessary to placate England and grant him builds to respond to the RAI threat.
(Yeah, I know you weren't allied with them - but the Spring 1902 moves said otherwise.)
Had I known that RA would immediately dissolve, I would not have vacated Lon.
> I wonder why you say that I could help you in north?
You have potential access to Germany through Tyl. I don't want you to attack him
now, but maybe some day it will be necessary.
> You should not want me to come too strong then I could be a
> threat to you. Could you explain?
You're right that I do not want you to quickly annihilate AT then come after me.
Russia would probably be a more direct help to me than you in the north. However,
your success benefits Russia, and that would allow him to help me. I think there's
room for all three of us to grow and be successful together. I am committed to the
'R' alliance.
> Well, Ven-Pie would be sensible in a way that it would cover me from EFG
> triple.
There is no Triple.
> Hey, I know it is stupid to think that you would go into western
> triple at the moment but you are under pressure.
If I am under pressure, it is from E and G. How could I possibly consider a western
triple?
> To be honest I am more concerned of you than Austria.
I am concerned about my western neighbors. I am not concerned about you, but that
would change if you were to move to Pie.
> If we'd agree a bounce in Pie that would made me feel secure.
> Could you clarify your intensions with Mar?
I want you to feel secure, but I can not agree to a bounce in Pie. I am moving
Mar-Bur.
Will you feel secure if I order MAO-Iri? I am willing to do so, but I need to
feel secure that you are not advancing to Pie.
Rod
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:46 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
I have been so silent lately that I am desperate to get some things
secure. So I am willing to keep out of Pie and see if you are honest with
your Mar-Bur. If you are not I have only one thing to do :-) So, I am not
going to move to Piedmont. Feel free to move to Irish Sea too. I am going
to do what I talked in the early days i.e leave you to handle the western
part of the map and I try to go on in east.
> I guess you'll just have to correct that then, eh? :-)
I am trying :-)
> If it were true (Western Triple), they wouldn't tell you about it.
One can always make a double-cross :-)
> Or it might be false because your 'natural' enemies are in the east, and they
> want to mislead you.
Some of them might want me to ally with them. I hope they all do :-)
> Yes, it would. But building fleets in Lvp and Kie would NOT make sense in an
> EFG triple.
Ok, let's cut this here. I am willing to leave Pie open with not moving
there. I'll see if you are worth it.
> You're right that I do not want you to quickly annihilate AT then come after me.
> Russia would probably be a more direct help to me than you in the
> north. However, your success benefits Russia, and that would allow him
> to help me. I think there's room for all three of us to grow and be
> successful together. I am committed to the 'R' alliance.
I am not getting answer from Adam so I think he won't listen to me :-(
Still, I am committed to the 'R' alliance. I just don't know yet about the
commitment from Russia. I can always change him to Austria :-)
> There is no Triple.
We'll see. I believe you now. I hope I believe you after the moves too.
> I want you to feel secure, but I can not agree to a bounce in Pie. I am moving
> Mar-Bur.
I am glad to hear this. I won't tell this to EG. Your friendliness is more
important at the moment than theirs.
> Will you feel secure if I order MAO-Iri? I am willing to do so, but I need to
> feel secure that you are not advancing to Pie.
I will feel secure if you order Mao-Iri _and_ Mar-Bur. I'll not move to
Pie. Confirm your moves and I'll order something else than Ven-Pie.
I will read my mails before deadline so I'll get your note.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:55 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> > Hey, I know it is stupid to think that you would go into western
> > triple at the moment but you are under pressure.
>
> If I am under pressure, it is from E and G. How could I possibly consider a
western triple?
Ah, I think you meant diplomatic pressure to join a triple. Such pressure existed
a year ago, but not now. E/G are about to go to war, and I intend to benefit from
it in the west.
Rod
From - Mon Oct 08 19:37:57 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
It is my understanding that Steve will be moving against France this
turn. If you are interested in assisting, I'm sure your help would not
be turned down. But if all you can dedicate to the fight is one army,
you will of course be a junior partner without all the benefits of one
who is really involved in the fight. It would be too easy for you to
turn around and give valuable information to France in exchange for his
leaving you alone in the Med, and thats a chance we can't afford to
take.
Obviously you and I aren't going to be coordinating moves this turn,
so for the moment I'm going to keep my plans to myself if you don't
mind. Steve may be able to use your help though, so it may be useful
for you to contact him and see if he's got anything for you. What we
really need is pressure from fleets in the Med, so if you want to get on
my good side you'll start looking for ways to make that happen. Sound
good?
Brent
From - Mon Oct 08 19:38:05 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> So, I am not going to move to Piedmont.
Thank you!
> I am going
> to do what I talked in the early days i.e leave you to handle the western
> part of the map and I try to go on in east.
That is still the best plan for us.
> Some of them might want me to ally with them. I hope they all do :-)
That would be nice, but to truly benefit, you must then stab one of them.
I find that decision more difficult than trying to get people to ally with me in
the first place.
> I will feel secure if you order Mao-Iri _and_ Mar-Bur.
OK. I will do so.
> I'll not move to Pie. Confirm your moves and I'll order something else than
Ven-Pie.
Agreed. I will order MAO-Iri and Mar-Bur. You will not enter Pie.
I'm glad that this is resolved! :-)
Rod
From - Mon Oct 08 19:38:43 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
I know you are online. I read the Vermont Group mailing list. I would
appreciate if you could answer my mail. I know I have been silent, so I am
not the one who can say anything bad about not talking. Still, I would
like to hear from you.
Adam is still trying to get me on his side. I won't do it. I think Eric is
working with Adam. This is what I read between the lines from Adam.
I am trying to get Adam to help me against Eric. But it seems that I have
to come along alone. Your help would be appreciated.
What do you think of my proposal?
Raine
From - Mon Oct 08 19:38:25 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> > I'll not move to Pie. Confirm your moves and I'll order something else
> than Ven-Pie.
>
> Agreed. I will order MAO-Iri and Mar-Bur. You will not enter Pie.
>
> I'm glad that this is resolved! :-)
I am glad also. I am sorry for being the difficult guy. I hope we can turn
this to our advantage. I won't move to Piedmont.
Brent is very suspicious. He isn't telling me his intension due to my
silense. So I cannot help you there. I keep talking to Brent and try to
find out something.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 08 19:39:08 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I think I won't here from you before the deadline (I am about to go to
sleep). I think we cannot coordinate our moves well. I want to tell you
that my moves are:
Tun h
Ven h
Con h
Ion-Eas
Nap-Ion
I hope to see Bla-Ank. I am on your side and I hope we can continue the
good job we have done so far. Sorry for the lack of good communication in
this diplomacy period.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 08 19:39:09 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
I understand your feelings. I feel ashamed of the lack of press. Still, I
want to tell you that you can gain a friend in situation like this. Think
about a situation where someone has been 'a lousy player' and most of
others neglecting him like you do. When that neglected person gets
friendly answer from someone he is very very happy.
I won't mind that you keep your moves secret. I'll need to do the same.
I hope we can diplome better in future and can trust each other more.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 08 19:39:10 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
I am about to go off-line. I don't know if I'll be on-line before the
deadline. I want to tell you my moves:
Ven H
Tun H
Con H
Ion-Eas
Nap-Ion
I would like to see your support Bul s Con. Also if you can afford not to
move to Aeg that would be nice.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 08 19:39:18 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I promised you a follow-up note...so here it is:
> That sounds good to me, but I'm less concerned about exactly who gets
> what than about making sure that we stay even (within one center of each
> other) while working together to achieve our goals.
I think that's an excellent way to proceed. Sometimes the "balance thing"
can get a bit tricky, but at long as there are English centers to chew up,
we shouldn't have too many disagreements.
>> Adam has already said my fleet looks
>> anti-English; so I think he's comfortable.
>
> I think so too. He told me he's not sure whether he'll bounce
> StP-Nwy or let it succeed; I think the bounce is better for us.
> Have you discussed this with him?
Yes, I have. He has asked me to leave Sweden alone so that he can re-take
St Pete and I think you should know that I agreed.
At first, I thought a bounce was the best thing for both of us, but I'm
starting to think that a Russian build would only fuel the mess in the east.
Of the four players, Keith is definitely the best and he is in the best
position (despite the Russian unit in Serbia).
I'm concerned that he will run all over Adam *and* Raine if left alone.
Maybe, if Eric can retake Con, he will be a counter-balance, but that is
both tricky to do and tricky to handle if it actually happens. Eric is an
excellent player in his own right.
I had a couple of other thoughts, but I have to go cook dinner now. I'll
write more in a bit.
If I we don't exchange letters before the deadline, good luck with the Irish
Sea and with your convoy. I'll do my best to get out of Burgundy; I know
how important that is to you. :)
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 08 19:39:16 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> This might be a good idea. We could try to go for strong AGI
> alliance. That should benefit us all. German build was good for you (us
> too). I have no idea if you have talked about peace with Steve but I would
> like it.
That would be fine with me. I don't anticipate any further conflicts
with Germany.
> I would like to
> Ion-Eas
> Nap-Ion
> Tun hold
> Ven (just tell me what you want, make it clear, please remember that
> there is a stupic finn trying to figure out your intensions :-)
> Con H (support would be cut anyway)
This is fine wih me. I'm not sure I'll be able to support you holding in
Con, though. I'll see if that will be possible. Also, please hold
Venice. I may move there to cut any possible support you could
potentially give to Russia. I don't want to wind up in Venice
accidentally.
> Now other moves are clear but Con is difficult. I would like to ask you to
> not move to Aeg. That might destroy my fleet in Con 'cause Aeg is most
> likely going to be the only unoccupied space to retreat to.
I don't think I'll move to Greece. If your fleet did get destroyed,
though, and you don't help Russia against me, I will pledge to help you
against Turkey. If you don't help Russia, I think I can handle him, and
I will have some strength left over to keep Turkey under control.
If you are great diplomat, perhaps you can get both Russia and I to help
you against Turkey even while Russia and I are fighting each other.
> If you have some ides how to keep Eric down on 2 and to keep AI as strong
> as possible let me know. My main goal is to keep Eric on 2 and to keep us
> strong.
I know you are worried about Turkey, but Russia is my first concern.
If you want to get rid of Turkey, you should try to convince Russia to
leave me alone. He might do that anyway if Germany moves Kie-Bal in the
Spring. Turkey is dangerous to me too, and I would like to keep you
happy, so I will be glad to help against Turkey once I can be sure that
Russia is not going to crush me.
keith
From - Mon Oct 08 19:39:20 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> as long as there are English centers to chew up,
> we shouldn't have too many disagreements.
I agree.
> Yes, I have. He has asked me to leave Sweden alone so that he can re-take
> St Pete and I think you should know that I agreed.
Does that mean he's moving to Bot and/or sending an army north?
> At first, I thought a bounce was the best thing for both of us, but I'm
> starting to think that a Russian build would only fuel the mess in the east.
Bouncing StP-Nwy is good for us tactically, but depriving England of centers is
even better. If Russia really does retake StP, I reckon that's a good thing.
I was planning to "suggest" Swe-Nwy to Adam. Please clarify what he told you,
and I'll adjust my press to him accordingly.
> Of the four players, Keith is definitely the best and he is in the best
> position (despite the Russian unit in Serbia).
I agree that Keith needs to be kept in check. It seems that Raine is obsessed
with finishing off Turkey before he'll consider moving against Austria, so Russia
is the only one who might apply pressure to Austria in the near future.
> Maybe, if Eric can retake Con
There was talk of Eric supporting *Adam* to Con, but it's more of a rumor than a
certainty.
Rod
From - Mon Oct 08 19:39:21 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
[most of others neglecting him like you do.]
I certainly hope I'm not neglecting you, or that you feel like I am.
My reason for secrecy is that I'm in a very delicate situation in the
West right now, and I'm not telling anyone, not even my best friends,
what I'm actually going to do. That way I know that it didn't leak out
and any problems with the results are my own fault. If I did tell you,
and something went wrong, I'd be tempted to blame it on you!
[I won't mind that you keep your moves secret. I'll need to do the
same.]
Fair enough. I trust that when your moves are revealed they will make
it clear whether or not you are going to commit to participation in an
EGI alliance.
[I hope we can diplome better in future and can trust each other more.]
I agree. Assuming we can get over the difficulty with press, my
biggest concern is that despite quite a few chances, you haven't
committed to an attack on France, but you also won't tell me straight
away that you aren't going to attack him. I thought the move to
Piedmont was a start, but by itself it wasn't enough, and then you
pulled back even that symbolic gesture. So what I'd really like to see
from you is more than just increased diplomacy, but a willingness to
actually commit to an attack plan that we can both cooperate on. Best
of luck with whatever your plans are this turn!
Brent
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:27 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> Almost the DMZ of Scandanavia that Brent originally wanted!
Maybe that wasn't such a silly idea afterall. :)
> I think Eric being down to two centers already probably precludes
> a typical juggernaught anyway.
Yes, your typical juggy is right out the window at this point, but with
Raine being so obstinate Eric really is your best partner. Besides, he is
kind of desperate; take full advantage of that while you can.
> I too fear a large Austria which is why I'm so confused
> that Raine seems determined to Eliminate First and
> worry about other threats later. He's obsessing over
> the rat running around in his kitchen while I Tiger is
> eating his couch.
I agree. LOL. The last letter I received from Raine talked about AGI
taking out Turkey and Russia (with English help) so I would expect something
like nap - ion and ion - east.
The only other thing I can imagine is that you really *are* working with
Raine. Hmm...there are some good possibilities there. I'll have to think a
bit more about that, but it's totally irrelevant to our needs in the north.
So, I probably won't...:)
If you'd really like to talk tactics in the Balkans, I'll be here for a few
more hours, but the timezone difference probably makes such discussions
impossible at this point.
Good luck with your moves, Adam. I appreciate the way we're working things
out.
Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:29 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
Good to hear from you after so long. Unfortunately, I have only a tiny bit
of time for dip tonight.
Here are a couple of my thoughts:
> Would you like to see Venice-Piedmont?
I would always welcome an Italian unit in the Piedmont. Remember, we still
have some Christmas presents to open, right?
> You are still in good position against France.
> Rod cannot force you out of Bur.
Nor could he force you out of the Piedmont. :)
> What do you think of GAI alliance? One possible way for me is to try to
> take Eric out. Then to head with full forces to west. I could do that in
> GAI well. Maybe I should make a note to both of you to have some
> discussion.
I very much like the idea of a central triple, but I probably won't commit
in the north until I see the same from you and Keith. I believe Keith has
given up his fantasy of taking Munich, but I want to wait a turn just to be
sure.
Regarding the west, EFG is not quite the mess that the east is, but nothing
is certain yet. I suspect, though, that the action will be swift when it
does happen. All three of us are well positioned defensively so an
offensive strike could happen at any time.
Please write when you can.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:30 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Did you get my last letter? I haven't heard from you since late last night;
just want to make sure we're still talking.
- Steve
In case you didn't, here it is again. If you're there, please write. I'll
be here for another hour or so.
=========
Hi Brent,
> [bel - pic
> bur s bel - pic
> ruh s hol - bel]
>
> Yah, I was thinking more along these lines than the more passive
> one you suggested afterwards.
Good. That's what I'm thinking too. The other moves still make sense, but
get there a bit more slowly.
> Which leads to another question, do you have any idea of what
> he's planning?
No clue; he's been away for a couple of days and his last letter didn't say
much. BTW, if you've heard from him, I would love a report.
> I would guess that a move to Irish is in the cards, but I'm not sure if
> he plans to get something going against Italy or if he trusts Raine
> enough to concentrate fully on me again now.
Trust isn't the issue here, but I'm 99% sure Rod will not enter the med.
However, Raine really is the big wild-card in the game; he doesn't write
much and when he does write, he appears a bit inflexible. I expect him to
fight it out in Turkey. Though, what I'd really like to see is an attack on
Greece; that's his best move afterall. Write him if you can; that would
free me up a bit more.
And, yes, I would expect mao - iri and eng s mao - iri. He might try a
convoy, but he hasn't indicated such to me.
> Do you see anything worthwhile for it?
Nope. You can either hold or expect a bounce in Wales. You could do
something kind of funny like using *that* army to convoy to Norway while
ordering edi - lvp and lvp - wal, but that's a big question mark?
> The disbanding sounds much better to me than having to slowly crawl it
> along the coast through what will be primarily English territory correct?
Probably, yes, but if I attack Picardy, I'd be in an excellent position to
take Brest in the fall. If that possibility did present itself, I could
move out in the spring while you backfilled from the channel. Might be a
bit tricky, but worth considering.
Write when you can. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:32 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
Sorry for the silence, it was a busy day at work, and the fact that I
needed to respond to you slipped my mind.
Actually, looking back through my records, I did send a message, so maybe
you didn't get it (or maybe you had the same problem as me). Anyways here
it is:
[No clue; he's been away for a couple of days and his last letter didn't say
much. BTW, if you've heard from him, I would love a report.]
Yah, I haven't heard from him lately either. Last I heard from him, he
was still talking mostly about the Western triple, which lead me to believe
that he was discussing more with you.
[Trust isn't the issue here, but I'm 99% sure Rod will not enter the med.]
Really? Wow, thats pretty sure!
[You can either hold or expect a bounce in Wales.]
I can't see him taking the risk on such a convoy, and if he did, I think
he'd be almost as likely to attempt it to London as he would Wales. Wales
is too obvious and likely to be defended in my opinion.
[Probably, yes, but if I attack Picardy, I'd be in an excellent position to
take Brest in the fall.]
I assume you mean Fall a year from now rather than Fall a season from now.
I don't see how you would be able to take Brest any sooner than that. Am I
missing something?
At this point, my orders stand as described in your previous message, let
me know if there are any changes.
Brent
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:34 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi,
I just realized that you had raised an issue to which I did not reply:
> Just an idea, but since the Russian troops are going to be quite tied up
> for the near future, I think you would be able to slip a unit into
> Livonia to take Warsaw and Moscow with little problem. At some point
> you mgiht even team up with France again.
That's an excellent idea, but it probably won't happen this year. My armies
are somewhat out of place for that right now, but if I get the center I
expect to this year and can reposition myself in Munich, it could easily
happen next year. I hope a one year delay on my part doesn't change your
plans.
In either case, though, I will probably still order a supported move into
Munich. We've had our rough spots so I just wanted to make that clear. In
all other regards, I wish you the best of luck.
If you do happen to tame the Russian bear, I suspect you could do well
against Italy (central triple talk aside). I believe Raine is committed to
an "Eliminate Turkey Strategy" which leaves you the option of snaring Venice
to support your effort against Adam. As I see it, your only vulnerability
is Greece (Serbia should be a piece of cake).
Bottom line: I do believe in the AG-Anschluss principle; I really would
like to see you prosper.
Write if you can. I'll be hear for a little bit tonight, but we can always
catch up tomorrow.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:36 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
I responded within the hour but its well past it now and still no
response. I've gotten Judge responses from both times I've sent the letter
so they should've both gone through.
As I said my orders stand as discussed. I really hope the same goes for
you, despite the communication problems you seem to be having. I'd hate to
see our relationship broken up because you missed a few responses. If you
do get this before the deadline, please at least verify that to me and let
me know whether the plan still stands.
Brent
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:37 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Thanks for getting back to me and thanks for copying your last letter.
Here are my thoughts:
> [Trust isn't the issue here, but I'm 99% sure Rod will not enter
> the med.]
> Really? Wow, thats pretty sure!
LOL. Yea, I guess so, but he's said that to me directly and both Eric and
Adam have confirmed it. I've been fooled many times before and probably
will be again, but I don't think this is one of those times.
Problem is...I don't know if that means he's thinking EF or FG or triple. I
suspect he's concerned about both A Bur and F Lvp so it's a toss-up which
way he is leaning.
> [Probably, yes, but if I attack Picardy, I'd be in an excellent position
> to take Brest in the fall.]
> I assume you mean Fall a year from now rather than Fall a season from now.
> I don't see how you would be able to take Brest any sooner than that.
>
> Am I missing something?
Nope, you aren't; I was just...
(I just got your last press so I'm sending this now)
Plan still stands.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:39 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Are you there? There's something I'd like to discuss with you quickly
before the deadline. Just send me back a quick yes if you are, otherwise
I'll send a more detailed letter later and have to hope you recieve it.
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:41 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
Alright, good to hear you're still there. I had visions of our messages
missing each other and waking up to a result that neither of us were happy
with.
[Problem is...I don't know if that means he's thinking EF or FG or triple.
I
suspect he's concerned about both A Bur and F Lvp so it's a toss-up which
way he is leaning.]
Well, if he was still thinking triple, a trip to the Med would seem to be
a necessity. So I suspect one of us is his next target. As for which, its
really impossible to say. Rod once told me that he negotiated with several
"possible truths", and only decided which one he was going to follow at the
very end of the turn. In that way, he could lie convincingly and without
guilt. I can't blame him, because I've often used that style of negotiating
myself. It does make him pretty much impossible to read though.
Anyways, I'm interested in what else you had to say, so if you get a
chance, send me the rest of the letter you were working on. Thanks!
Brent
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:43 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
A couple of things (please forgive the brevity):
> Does that mean he's moving to Bot and/or sending an army north?
I really don't know, but the impression I get is that he would order swe -
bot. He talked about the need for another army, but I think that's a year
off at least.
> Bouncing StP-Nwy is good for us tactically, but depriving
> England of centers is even better. If Russia really does
> retake StP, I reckon that's a good thing.
My goal is to deprive Brent of centers. If you and Adam benefit before me,
that's no big deal.
> I was planning to "suggest" Swe-Nwy to Adam. Please clarify
> what he told you, and I'll adjust my press to him accordingly.
I don't think it matters too much what you say. Both the bounce and swe -
bot will help us take out Brent.
> I agree that Keith needs to be kept in check. It seems that Raine
> is obsessed with finishing off Turkey before he'll consider moving
> against Austria, so Russia is the only one who might apply pressure
> to Austria in the near future.
I have the same impression of Raine; I would truly like it if he were more
flexible. There are many ways he could help us out if he just dropped that
"kill Eric bone" he's chewing so hard.
> There was talk of Eric supporting *Adam* to Con, but it's more
> of a rumor than a certainty.
I've heard that as well. LOL.
Write if you can, but if not I think we are all set for this turn. I've
said that before and been burnt, but I don't think this will be one of those
times. :)
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:45 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
So, any chance you're still going to be around in a few years? Things
have certainly been interesting over here in the West, and I think this
year's moves will be very enlightening as to where people stand. Raine has
been predictably silent, and Adam looks to be the biggest benefactor of
that, as Raine is not only keeping you occupied but Keith worried. He keep
talking about attacking France, as he has since the game began, but I would
bet a fair sum against it happening.
Anyways, hope you're still managing to have fun down there, and if things
do take a trun for the worse, remember that you'll always be welcome as my
personal adviser!
Brent
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:46 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
> Are you there? There's something I'd like to discuss with you quickly
> before the deadline. Just send me back a quick yes if you are, otherwise
> I'll send a more detailed letter later and have to hope you recieve it.
I am now online, but only *briefly*. I'll check my email again shortly
before midnight EDT. After that, I'll be offline until after the
deadline.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:47 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> I don't think it matters too much what you say. Both the bounce and swe -
> bot will help us take out Brent.
OK. I'll suggest that he do either of those as he prefers.
> Write if you can, but if not I think we are all set for this turn.
Yes, I think we're all set. My orders are in, and I'm about to retire
for the evening.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:49 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
I've been thinking that if you really want to reclaim StP rather than
flip a coin to choose between Swe H and Swe-Nwy, it could be
accomplished with Swe-Bot, War-Lvn (or Mos). However, this potentially
weakens your attack against Austria, and you would be likely to lose
Swe.
Anyway, I've flipped *my* coin and entered my orders, and I wish you
luck in your coin toss as well.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:50 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
OK, thanks for the response. With a little bit of thought, I decided my
crisis is not such a big deal, but I'll let you in on it.
Basically, Steven wrote me "confirming" that he would be ordering Bel -
Pic with support AND Hol - Bel with support. I freaked out at the
possibility that all our closely laid plans could be bounced like that. I
still believed that Steve was lying to me, but the possibility is there that
he isn't.
I thought about it some more though. The only way to counter that set of
moves would be for you to order ENG S Edi - Bel instead of ENG S Nth. But
assuming that he is siding with you, that would most likely mean loss of the
North Sea AND a failed convoy. While I'd really like to land the army and
get on with the invasion, its just not worth the risk. Especially since my
gut still tells me that Steven is not going to side with me and thus
anything he tells me is suspect. And even if we were to bounce, I will
hopefully have a fleet in Norway and you an army in Gascony that will make a
repeat attempt in the Fall much more likely to succeed.
So, in the end, I think the current plan is the best. No word from Russia
of course, but he has told me several times he was considering letting me
into Norway, so I'm still hoping he'll come through. Anyways, sorry for the
"false alarm", and best of luck to us for the coming season!
Brent
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:54 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I just checked out Fermi so I thought I'd write you a quick note with my
observations. You've probably committed for the fall moves, but I thought
I'd write anyhow.
I have three basic thoughts to offer:
1) As I see it, all the S'01 moves were pretty standard; the only slightly
weird one was Mun H. What's that all about? Do something Kaiser, please.
:)
2) The Italian moves may appear threatening, but you can afford to bounce
if need be. I wouldn't, though. Your best fall move is (was) taking
Greece. You'll still get a build in Bud and can retake Trieste at any time.
3) I have never, ever, *ever*, played Austria when Russia has opened north.
I am immensely jealous. LOL.
Back in Gutsy, I hope you take my 2-2 Scandanavian offer seriously. I've
ordered an attack on the North Sea plus Kie - Hel. My armies might mix it
up a little, but probably not. :)
Good luck with Keith and Eric. I'm not going to try convincing you of
anything, I figure you have your hands full without any crap from me.
I hope to talk more in the fall.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:55 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
> Yes, I think we're all set. My orders are in, and I'm about to
> retire for the evening.
Thanks Rod, I'm about to crash myself. Good luck with your convoy.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 09 20:29:57 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> I thought about it some more though. The only way to counter that set of
> moves would be for you to order ENG S Edi - Bel instead of ENG S Nth. But
> assuming that he is siding with you, that would most likely mean loss of the
> North Sea AND a failed convoy.
I don't think it's worth risking Nth unless you're sure that Germany is
being straight with you.
> So, in the end, I think the current plan is the best.
I agree.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:02 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
I'm sure you won't like this, but I've decided to support myself into the
North Sea.
I do this recognizing fully that such a move will make future EG cooperation
difficult to negotiate. However, I do believe it is my best move under the
current circumstances. I will also order Kie - Hel; if you choose to bounce
me I would understand.
In no way do I consider this a pro-French move, nor do I consider it a
pro-Russian move. Hopefully, you will not see it as an anti-English move; I
just need to do what works best for me.
I know you don't like this style of play and I fully understand your
position; really I do. I've met with similar skepticism before.
I'm going to bed soon, but I thought I owed you an explanation. I'll write
more once S'03 is in the books.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:03 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Don't worry, I'm not going to attack Munich. Now, or any time within the
near future. I tried my best to get Italy to go west, but he didn't, and
then Russia attacked me. You are far down on the list of threats to
Austria at this point.
> That's an excellent idea, but it probably won't happen this year. My armies
> are somewhat out of place for that right now, but if I get the center I
> expect to this year and can reposition myself in Munich, it could easily
> happen next year. I hope a one year delay on my part doesn't change your
> plans.
I had figured that you and England were still allied and that you might
want to keep your unit in Burgundy and move to the Baltic to set up a
convoy (I could have made sure that Warsaw had left). It sounds to me
though as if you are now back together with France. We shall see (don't
tell me). You guys sure change up your alliances often up there.
> If you do happen to tame the Russian bear, I suspect you could do well
> against Italy (central triple talk aside). I believe Raine is committed to
> an "Eliminate Turkey Strategy" which leaves you the option of snaring Venice
> to support your effort against Adam. As I see it, your only vulnerability
> is Greece (Serbia should be a piece of cake).
It is not as easy as you make it seem, especially if Italy and Russia
team up. As it is Russia can do a good job of cutting supports and
keeping what he has. I don't know where Italy stands. He is probably
concerned about Turkey, but if RI are a team, Turkey shouldn't be able to
grow.
> Bottom line: I do believe in the AG-Anschluss principle; I really would
> like to see you prosper.
In principle I do as well. The better off you are, the less I have to
worry about Russia. Of course there are exceptions, such as when Russia
attacks Germany, Italy moves west, and all three are against Turkey. I
thought that would have worked, but the others apparently had qualms.
I will be in a tough spot for a year or two. If everything goes my way,
I should be able to pull out of it. If not, and especially if Italy
joins against me, I will need to ask for some sort of move against
Russia. A small move should be enough, just so he backs off. If he does
not devote his full attention to me, I will be able to take back whatever
gains he has made, and so he should not pose any threat to you.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:07 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
I'm happy to hear from you.
> That would be fine with me. I don't anticipate any further conflicts
> with Germany.
That is good for us.
> This is fine wih me. I'm not sure I'll be able to support you holding in
> Con, though. I'll see if that will be possible. Also, please hold
> Venice. I may move there to cut any possible support you could
> potentially give to Russia. I don't want to wind up in Venice
> accidentally.
I really hope you could support me in Con. I have no problems to hold in
Venice. Feel free to cut the support you think I might give to Russia. I
feel a little annoyed about it but 'cause I have been so silent I will
forgive you and blame myself.
> I don't think I'll move to Greece. If your fleet did get destroyed,
> though, and you don't help Russia against me, I will pledge to help you
> against Turkey. If you don't help Russia, I think I can handle him, and
> I will have some strength left over to keep Turkey under control.
My fleet will get destroyed only if you move Gre-Aeg. I ask you not to
move like that. You talked about Greece but you are already there! I would
love to hear from you before Adam gets his orders in.
> If you are great diplomat, perhaps you can get both Russia and I to help
> you against Turkey even while Russia and I are fighting each other.
I have tried to get Adam to cut the support from Ankara. Also I have tried
to speak him to attack Eric instead of you. I don't know if I managed to
do it but I tried. I got the feeling that RT are working together.
> If you want to get rid of Turkey, you should try to convince Russia to
> leave me alone. He might do that anyway if Germany moves Kie-Bal in the
> Spring. Turkey is dangerous to me too, and I would like to keep you
> happy, so I will be glad to help against Turkey once I can be sure that
> Russia is not going to crush me.
I tried to convince Adam to ignore you but I don't know if I managed to do
it. I proposed Sev-Arm,Bla-Ank that would guarantee Ankara to him. I did
not get the answer. Remember that as long as my army in Venice is not
needed to defend against France it is there to help you. I will order hold
like you asked me to.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:09 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
I am not sure if you can read this before the moves are processed.
Anyway I want to tell you that I am not moving against France. I simply
have too much to do in east.
> Fair enough. I trust that when your moves are revealed they will make
> it clear whether or not you are going to commit to participation in an
> EGI alliance.
Both your and Steve's reply to my EGI question made me want to look how
things will go before I come to western theatre. I hope you understand
that Italy usually is heading east.
I hope we can get advantages of our communication even if I don't come to
west at all. I wish you good luck in your actions.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:11 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
I am glad to hear from you. Too bad that you are in hurry too. I guess I
am not the only one.
> > Would you like to see Venice-Piedmont?
>
> I would always welcome an Italian unit in the Piedmont. Remember, we still
> have some Christmas presents to open, right?
I want to tell you that I am not moving there. A the moment Russia is
late. So you probably don't get this before the adjustication. Anyway if
you do get this you can take advantage of the knowledge of it. At the
moment I think I am the one who is giving present :-(
> I very much like the idea of a central triple, but I probably won't commit
> in the north until I see the same from you and Keith. I believe Keith has
> given up his fantasy of taking Munich, but I want to wait a turn just to be
> sure.
You want us to commit north?!? Keith is insane if he still tries to get
Munich. I don't think he will.
At the moment I am suffering from not knowing what is going to happen I
have been open to almost everyone who has been interested in. I am paying
the price of my silence :-( I hope I'll here about GAI more.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:13 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
Adam,
I'm supporting Bla-Con.
Eric.
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:14 2001
Broadcast message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia in 'gutsy':
> Diplomacy game 'gutsy' is waiting for Russia's orders.
I don't get it, I sent orders in TWICE yesterday and
didn't get a reply from either so I figured that the
judge was just being slow or something and I'd get
these replies during the night but NO, I get a late
notice. Actually I sent my orders THREE times but I
screwed up typing 'signon' in one of them so that
bounced and told me off. Why didn't I get replies for
the other two? Did the press I sent with them even
get sent? Well, I'm sending in my orders AGAIN with
this message, let's see if I get a reply this time.
Adam............
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:16 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
I still intend to take Eric's support into Con and
cut as much of Austria's support as possible. I
hope you will consider Ven - Tri and F Ion C A Tun - Alb
while retreating to Aeg from Con. I really think
these are the best moves for us, and I intend to
go ahead with them. I hope you will do the same.
Adam.........
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:18 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Eric is supporting you to Con?!? That is strange. I wouldn't believe it if
I were you. Why would Eric do something like that? To get you from moving
to Ankara, I guess.
I hate do disapoint you but I am not moving to Tri or Alb. I thought I
gave you a plan that would have given the same result for us. You must
have some other plans.
If you are attackin me in Con it means that I am forced to ally with
Keith. AI against RT is going to be equal. It all depends on how western
folks go against us.
I hope you are fooling me and you are still moving to Ankara :-) Chances
are 1/100 after you wrote your letter.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:21 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: S1903M Tue Oct 09 2001 20:00:00 +1300
Movement results for Spring of 1903. (gutsy.007)
Austria: Army Bulgaria -> Serbia. (*bounce*)
Austria: Army Bohemia -> Galicia.
Austria: Fleet Greece -> Albania.
Austria: Army Tyrolia -> Vienna.
Austria: Army Budapest SUPPORT Army Bohemia -> Galicia.
England: Army London HOLD.
England: Fleet St Petersburg (north coast) -> Norway.
England: Fleet North Sea CONVOY Army Edinburgh -> Belgium. (*dislodged*)
England: Fleet Liverpool -> North Atlantic Ocean.
England: Army Edinburgh -> North Sea -> Belgium. (*no convoy*)
France: Army Spain -> Gascony.
France: Army Picardy -> English Channel -> Wales.
France: Fleet English Channel CONVOY Army Picardy -> Wales.
France: Army Marseilles -> Burgundy.
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean -> Irish Sea.
Germany: Army Belgium HOLD.
Germany: Army Ruhr SUPPORT Army Burgundy -> Munich.
Germany: Fleet Denmark SUPPORT Fleet Holland -> North Sea.
Germany: Army Burgundy -> Munich.
Germany: Fleet Holland -> North Sea.
Germany: Fleet Kiel -> Helgoland Bight.
Italy: Army Tunis HOLD.
Italy: Army Venice HOLD.
Italy: Fleet Constantinople HOLD. (*dislodged*)
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea -> Eastern Mediterranean.
Italy: Fleet Naples -> Ionian Sea.
Russia: Army Serbia -> Bulgaria. (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Galicia -> Budapest. (*bounce, dislodged*)
Russia: Fleet Black Sea -> Constantinople.
Russia: Fleet Sweden HOLD.
Russia: Fleet Sevastopol -> Rumania.
Russia: Army Warsaw -> Galicia. (*bounce*)
Turkey: Army Smyrna SUPPORT Fleet Ankara.
Turkey: Fleet Ankara SUPPORT Russian Fleet Black Sea -> Constantinople.
The following units were dislodged:
The English Fleet in the North Sea can retreat to Yorkshire or Norwegian Sea
or Skagerrak.
The Italian Fleet in Constantinople can retreat to Aegean Sea.
The Russian Army in Galicia can retreat to Ukraine or Silesia.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Retreats for Spring of 1903.
The deadline for orders will be Wed Oct 10 2001 23:04:42 +1300.
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:23 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
> Eric is supporting you to Con?!? That is strange. I wouldn't believe it if
> I were you. Why would Eric do something like that? To get you from moving
> to Ankara, I guess.
And to take Con when I support myself into Bul in the fall of
course.
> I hate do disapoint you but I am not moving to Tri or Alb. I thought I
> gave you a plan that would have given the same result for us. You must
> have some other plans.
I explained both my objections to your ideas and my own a number
of times already. If you did convoy to Alb and try for Tri then
there's a better-than-average chance you'll get Tri and Gre
this year. Growth of one. I'll probably also get Bul. Growth
of one. Your ideas would be lucky to get me Ank and quite
possibly loose Ser and leave serious threats to Rum. Your
ideas would give Keith a build which would give me a very
large opponent.
> If you are attackin me in Con it means that I am forced to ally with
> Keith. AI against RT is going to be equal. It all depends on how western
> folks go against us.
I hope you choose not to do this, it will make things difficult for
all of us. The retreat to Aeg is perfect, and the moves will work
very well even if Alb is bounced (and I don't think it will be).
If you want to make gains this year, then you will convoy into
Alb and move into Tri. If you don't then making gains will
be somewhere between impossible and very difficult for you.
I'm sorry to have to force you into a decision like this but
you have been ignoring all my requests for compromise for at
least a year so I have to push as hard as you have been. I
shouldn't have even cut Ank support LAST year, I should have
made you take Gre back then but I wasn't in a fit state to
think about it. Now I am, and I insist that if you want a
build, You'll convoy to Alb and try to Tri.
> I hope you are fooling me and you are still moving to Ankara
> :-) Chances are 1/100 after you wrote your letter.
Chances are zero. I am NOT moving to Ank, I am taking Eric's
support into Con so that you can retreat to Aeg while
trying for Alb and Tri. You present me with a plan and tell
me to take it or leave it, I'm doing to same to you.
Adam...........
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:25 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Movement results for Spring of 1903. (gutsy.007)
Ah, too late I guess. If you'd done as I suggested you'd
be in Tri now and also able to take Gre this fall. I'd
be able to take Bul. Oh well. I'll write soon, when
I've figured out if we can salvage everything.
Adam.............
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:27 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Raine wrote to me at the very last minute, after my broadcast
wondering where my orders went. He said that he would not
be moving to Tri or Alb, and it looks like the fool meant
it too. He could be in Tri now, and have 100% on Gre,
and Bull would be guarenteed to fall too.
He said that if I refused to cut Ank support then he would
gang up with Keith against you and I. I doubt they'll find
much in common but you never know, the threat was there
anyway. The AI vs RT fight would be about even in total
after this year anyway by the look of things.
I guess he MIGHT still try for Gre in the fall, but it's
pretty unlikely. Knowing his dogged determination he'll
take Smy instead. I suppose it might be possible to
keep Smy from him if we don't move into Bul afterall.
It might be worth ordering F Con S A Smy but Bul could
well cut that support. Hard to be sure, it might try
for Bul just as easily I guess. I imagine that Raine
and Keith can argue about that for the whole negotation
period.
I guess I should ask Raine if he's going to go through
with his threat or not.
Adam.........
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:30 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Well, so he would have bounced you in Alb but not
even tried to keep you out of Tri. That would have
worked well, we could have cut just about every
support Keith can offer and have taken Gre and
Tri and Bul from Keith, like I said.
Still, I suppose you manage half of your goal this
way, at least you'll be able to knock Eric down to
one supply center, even if that is at the cost of
your own growth. I wondered how determined you were
to do that, I guess you've answered my question:
You're so determined to eliminate Eric that you'll
sacrafice your own growth for it. What the hell
did he SAY to you?
It's not all lost though, you can still take Gre
this fall, with A Tun if you want, and I can try
and support you into Tri from Ser, but that will
get cut. I guess your best bet would be to talk
friendly with Keith and agree a plan that leaves
Tri vunerable then walk in and take Gre too. We
can still salvage the plan though now you will
have to rely on Diplomacy to get Tri rather than
brute force the way it would have worked if you'd
convoyed Abl and chanced Tri.
If you do as you said you might and gang up with
Keith against Eric and I then you will not grow this
year. You'll be able to take Smy but that won't
be enough for growth of course. I guess you're
presented with the same options again: Take a
supply center from Eric and speed his elimination
or take two from Keith and grow.
I hope you'll make the right decision this time.
Adam...........
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:32 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France and Germany in 'gutsy':
Rod - You were right. England is yours for the taking.
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:35 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Good diplomacy from you to get Eric to support you to Con!
It is easy to say afterwards that both our plans would have been better
than what happend. In my plan you would now be in Armenia and Black Sea
and I would be in Con. So both plans would have worked. Eric would have
been down to one center after the fall in my plan and I could have stabbed
Keith in fall moves already. Now it is very complicated. I mean, you _did_
attack me. You could have said it more in advance. I didn't have time to
do anything else than write one letter to you. Still it is no problem I
can see that we can overcome this easily.
There is no need for us to say that my plan would have worked better. The
fact is that both plans would have been better than what happend. I am
ready to say that it was more my fault. I was busy lately.
> Still, I suppose you manage half of your goal this
> way, at least you'll be able to knock Eric down to
> one supply center, even if that is at the cost of
> your own growth. I wondered how determined you were
> to do that, I guess you've answered my question:
> You're so determined to eliminate Eric that you'll
> sacrafice your own growth for it. What the hell
> did he SAY to you?
Eric has been polite like he should have been. I have nothing against Eric
personally. It was our original plan to take Turkey out first or more
accurately almost out. We could argue about that but it is useless. Let's
try to negotiate the best result of what we got now.
> If you do as you said you might and gang up with
> Keith against Eric and I then you will not grow this
> year. You'll be able to take Smy but that won't
> be enough for growth of course. I guess you're
> presented with the same options again: Take a
> supply center from Eric and speed his elimination
> or take two from Keith and grow.
I think I can afford to wait. France is heading north with such a speed.
Steve is not a threat. So I don't see why we could not continue the way I
proposed.
> I hope you'll make the right decision this time.
Maybe my head is made of wood :-) I mean, we STILL have the opportunity to
knock Eric out AND THEN eliminate Keith. Now it is a little bit harder
'cause I want to make moves that are absolutely safe for me. I have to be
conserned of your goodwill 'cause of the last moves. I won't judge you, I
want to underline that I take the blame on our bad diplomacy. I won't take
it next time :-)
Raine
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:37 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
So do you at least agree with me, in hindsight, that you made the wrong
decision? You will get one center in Turkey, at best, and it will probably
be grabbed quickly by someone else. Meanwhile, there are an abundance of
French centers just sitting open that you will not be able to take advantage
of. And when you do get back from your conquest of one center, France will
already be flooding the Med with more fleets than you have. I'm not saying
you made the wrong decision based on what info you had, but I do think it
pretty clear you made the wrong decision based on what info we have now.
The question now is what to do about it? For how long can you continue to
concentrate on the East while France balloons in size? He will get one
maybe two centers off me this turn and a third the turn after that. What
will you do when all those units come looking for you?
Brent
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:40 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Looks like I'm next on the out list. Want to throw in your "I told you
so"?
To be fair, I've been facing a strong FG alliance all game, just like
you've been facing a strong alliance on your side. I had to try something
to break it. If I had built army Liverpool, I would've either been a
sitting duck for an FG alliance, or a pawn to one of them. With so few
fleets of my own, I would've been entirely dependent on theirs, and pretty
much cripled at their will. So I decided that I needed to try to convince
one of them I was on their side, and I quickly selected Rod, because Steven
had made it quite clear that he didn't care for alliances at all, and would
only side with me as long as I was handing him centers.
So why the fleet in Liverpool you ask? Because Rod has also made it clear
that he chose his alliances based on where he saw the best potential for
gain. My hope was that by building defensively and then offering him an
alliance, I had a shot at convincing him that attacking Germany was the
better way to go. Obviously I failed to break them up, but I stand behind
my methods even now.
Anyways, this game has been a great learning experience. For the first
time I've seen a game where volume of press does not in itself cause one to
be successful. I've also seen that there is quite a difference in playing
style between the games I've been in and this one, which I can use the next
time I run into high-rated players. I'm not ashamed to make this game the
first one in which I've been eliminated after starting the game, though I am
disappointed. But after all, I will last longer than you, right? ;-)
Brent
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:43 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France and Germany in
'gutsy':
>
> Rod - You were right. England is yours for the taking.
That's the plan, right? I don't think Brent likes me. :)
Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:45 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> It is easy to say afterwards that both our plans would have been better
> than what happend. In my plan you would now be in Armenia and Black Sea
> and I would be in Con. So both plans would have worked.
No, this was the whole point. Rum would be vunerable since
there wouldn't be enough support there now if my fleets had
gone as far south as you wanted. Or else I'd have lost Ser
by retreating it out as you requested. Not to mention that
the main threat, Keith, would still be in line for a build
from Ser. Your plan would have been disaster for me, it
would have traded a supply center from Eric, who represents
almost no threat anyway, and given it to Keith, who is
already strong and dangerous. I say again, your plan would
have been a disaster for me, I could never have agreed to
it.
> Eric would have
> been down to one center after the fall in my plan and I could have stabbed
> Keith in fall moves already. Now it is very complicated. I mean, you _did_
> attack me. You could have said it more in advance.
I tried to send it with my moves last night before I went
to bed but apparently the judge was playing up. At least
two of my messages have disapeared into the aether. Sorry
about that. I did also say that Eric would support me into
Con and you could retreat to Aeg in press that you have replied
to previosuly. And I've pointed out the problems with your
plan numerous times. I couldn't possibly do as you asked,
my only alternative was to try and force you into attacking
Austria.
> I think I can afford to wait. France is heading north with such a speed.
> Steve is not a threat. So I don't see why we could not continue the way I
> proposed.
Afford to wait? I am in danger from Austria, maybe it's true
that you are not in danger from Keith but I already am. I
think you should give some consideration to helping our
your ally.
> Maybe my head is made of wood :-) I mean, we STILL have the opportunity to
> knock Eric out AND THEN eliminate Keith.
Still with this Eliminating Eric obsession. Wow. You really seem
to want Austria to grow which I find very dangerous indeed,
I have to wonder why you are so reluctant to attack Austria
when Eric is so harmless to us. I have to suspect you mean
me harm.
> Now it is a little bit harder
> 'cause I want to make moves that are absolutely safe for me. I have to be
> conserned of your goodwill 'cause of the last moves. I won't judge you, I
> want to underline that I take the blame on our bad diplomacy. I won't take
> it next time :-)
Safe moves? I have to assume that you are utterly reluctant
to attack Keith because you are allied more closely with
him than you are with me, and that you wish to see him grow
in order to do me harm.
If I tell you that I will probably support A Smy from F Con
then you know you cannot take a Turkish supply center. Thus,
your only safe move is to take Gre. If you are taking Gre you
might as well try for Tri as well.
For now I will continue to work with Eric until the moment you take
an Austrian supply center. I know it's unpleasent to be forced
into doing something, but I need help in Austria now, Eric
is prepared to give it to me and you are, apparently, not
prepared to do so yet. I can't imagine why this is, so I must
assume you mean trouble for me. You have tried laying down the law
and insisting on your plan up until now so now I will try to
force your hand into attacking Austria.
Unless you can give a good reason for eliminating
Eric first, something you have insisted you have for at
least 18 game months but still not yet presented, I
will support Smy and you will suffer a disband unless
you take Gre from Keith.
I hate doing gunboat diplomacy like this but you are leaving
me very little room for negotation or compromise.
Adam..........
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:51 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Adam,
I suggested:
Sev-Arm
Bla-Ank
war s gal
gal s ser-rum
ser-rum
Position after the moves would have been
Russia
f arm
f bla
a ser
a gal
a war
Italy
f con
f eas
Austria
a ser
f alb
a bud
a boh
a vie
Turkey
f ank
a smy
Bulgaria would have been empty. Please look at the situation!
You would have moved Rum-Bul and you would have either Rum or
Bul! You would have lost Ser to Keith and gained Ankara from Eric.
I could have made it sure that Keith won't grow in fall. Yes that plan was
good to Italy and neutral to you.
Didn't we agree about the fact that you attack Keith alone while I attack
Eric? Do I have to look at the old mails and check this out? I am sure we
DID agree this. Why are you saying that I was soloing there?
I will end the discussion of the past. We can talk about it forever but it
won't help us. So let's look at the current situation and think how we
could make the best out of it.
I think you are overreacting a bit if you are already saying that you'll
support Smy hold. Feel free to do so , at least in means no build to Eric
:-) If I take this the way you do I would say that I dispand the army in
Tunis and help Keith as much as possible. That would ruin our co-operation
completely and I don't want that. By supporting Eric in Smyrna you'll
guarantee that I won't attack Keith ever, why should I help you in that
situation?
I think we should not argue anymore. We should talk constructively about
the plans we propose. Feel free to give me your detailed plan of
forthcoming moves and I'll think about it.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:53 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
Steve,
Glad to see Kie sail West, hopefully that will give me
time to sort Raine out and get him involved in the attack
on Keith. He's so reluctant to do anything other than
fight Eric still, it's frightening. Even now, when he
could have just walked into Tri last season and taken
Gre he's still saying to me that he can afford to
wait, that he can take Eric down first, that there's
no reason to stop Keith getting another build. Wow.
I've really put my neck out now, with that attack on
Con (which I told him I would be doing) and now I've
told him I'll probably support Smy so his only way to
avoid a disband is to take Gre.
I'm still not convinced he actually will, he's strange.
How far can I push to make him compromise I'm not
sure but you definately have to push hard to get him
to do anything at all don't you?
> Yes, your typical juggy is right out the window at this point, but with
> Raine being so obstinate Eric really is your best partner. Besides, he is
> kind of desperate; take full advantage of that while you can.
This is one of the reason's I don't understand Raine's
instistance that we knock Eric out of the game. I like
having almost powerless powers around to help me out
and leak info to me and put wedges into large aliances.
I'd sooner leave a power on the map if I can myself,
it's handy to have someone who's greatful for just their
continued survival, never mind a supply center. Heh.
> I agree. LOL. The last letter I received from Raine talked about AGI
> taking out Turkey and Russia (with English help) so I would expect something
> like nap - ion and ion - east.
That's what he said he'd do. I told him it was no good to me,
that I wouldn't cut Ank support, that I was going to eject him
from Con and he should take try for Tri and Alb but no-go.
Seems it's more important to take Eric's supply centers than
it is for Italy to grow. Oh well, he'll either disband or
help me this year now, if I have to use gunboat diplomacy
then that's what I'll do.
> The only other thing I can imagine is that you really *are* working with
> Raine. Hmm...there are some good possibilities there. I'll have to think a
> bit more about that, but it's totally irrelevant to our needs in the north.
> So, I probably won't...:)
Working with him would have been good. Italian armies in Tri
and Gre having bounced Alb right now would have been just
great. Gre falls next year, Tri stays Italian, Bul goes
to me, Eric takes back Con. Party all around I'd have
thought. Raine didn't like the idea of Eric growing by
a center though. Now if he doesn't work with me, he'll
disband. I wonder if that will convince him to take on
Keith.
> Good luck with your moves, Adam. I appreciate the way we're working
> things out.
Yeah, things are looking fairly okay for both of us. You and
Rod should be able to take England out more quickly than I
can make these three behave down here. I was hoping you'd
manage to stay in Bur for a while to keep Rod under a bit
of pressure, there's no way Raine's going to attack France
before Eric's dead. Probably before Keith's dead now as
well.
Two centers in Scandanavia, StP and Norway are easier to
mutually protect from each other than Swe and StP. Norway
is also less threatening to you. Would it be good or
bad for you if the two centers which I took were Nwy and
StP and you took Swe from me? If it were done properly I
could even retreat into Norway which would leave Brent
unable to complain too hard at me.
Adam...........
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:55 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
I feel that I ought to explain myself, though I suspect that you still
won't like it.
You proposed the best plan possible, and I appreciate your willingness
to consider loaning me a center. I was confident that your negotiations
were sincere. However, even though it seemed likely that the convoy
to Bel would work, I was pessimistic that we would obtain further
success. Germany could've easily cut support for a Fall attack on Hol,
and his three fleets meant that even with F Nwy, I would've had to
allocate F Eng to full-time defense of the North Sea (unless Russia
committed himself to our cause, but I doubted that we'd be able to give
him a good enough reason to do that). It just didn't seem like a
winning situation.
Steven agreed to the requirements that I had for F/G cooperation, and
it seemed that our plan had a good chance of success. I was a little
nervous about it, but I think the turn results confirm that I made the
right choice.
Though it's certainly advantageous to be able to choose which of your
allies to stab, I really don't like it. Betraying a plan made in good
faith is the least enjoyable part of the game for me, and I regret that
E/F didn't work out. That's probably more my fault than yours, and I
hope that some day we have a fresh opportunity to work together as
allies - with a positive result.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:57 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> > Rod - You were right. England is yours for the taking.
>
> That's the plan, right?
Of course! :-)
> I don't think Brent likes me. :)
You're probably right, but I suspect that I am rising very quickly on his "persona
non grata" list as well.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 09 20:30:58 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Why didn't I get replies for
> the other two? Did the press I sent with them even
> get sent?
The last message that I received from you was, "If you explain why it makes a
difference I'll tell you...."
I didn't have any trouble with the judge yesterday, so maybe the problem was at
your end. :-(
The Openings List on the Pouch is a good place to check to see if a judge is down.
It tells you the last time that the judge responded to the Opening List query.
However, it's updated only once every two hours.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:00 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> The last message that I received from you was, "If you explain why
> it makes a difference I'll tell you...."
>
> I didn't have any trouble with the judge yesterday, so maybe the problem
> was at your end. :-(
Hummm, I did send one saying that I was going to hold as
well since it seemed that was going to be your best move.
Looks like I lost more press than I thought.
> The Openings List on the Pouch is a good place to check
> to see if a judge is down. It tells you the last time
> that the judge responded to the Opening List query.
> However, it's updated only once every two hours.
Yeah, the judge was responding, even to me, it bounced
my screwed up 'sigon' command in minutes it was just the
ones that I managed to sign on properly that disapeared.
Still, looks like it's working now. If only Raine would
start behaving rationally too huh?
Adam...........
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:01 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Russia in 'gutsy':
Well, want to confirm these orders and
see if something badly went wrong earlier.
Pre.......
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:03 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Doesn't look like I'm likely to hear from you
before the deadline now. I'm going to have to
go with the moves Eric suggested and hope that
you see sense and convoy into Alb while trying
to move to Tri from Vie.
I'm going to ask Eric to dislodge your F Con so
that you can retreat to Alb which should give
us a reasonaby good position.
Goodnight.
Adam.......
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:05 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
I am glad that you didn't tell me your intensions. I would be the one to
blame.
I can see your point when you say that I made a mistake. Let's put it this
way, I am not satisfied with the results either.
Could you reveal what you were up to? I mean, did you have a agreement
with Germany to work against France? Somehow I thought so. But my vision
might well be wrong 'cause I had talked so little with people.
I can tell it to you I am retreating to Aeg :-) Could you tell me your
retreat?
What are you doing with Adam? He is for sure building to Moscow and taking
Stp back.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:08 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
You are my best friend :-) Thanks for doing like you promised. I won't
bother you anymore with questions of Piedmont. I am especially happy about
the Mao-Iri. I mean the fact that you could tell something else than only
Mar's intention.
It certainly looks like FG. Would you like to give me a comment if I am
right or wrong?
East is a mess. Keith is seeing ghosts. Austria really isn't a fleet power
one can say that by looking what Austrian fleet is doing.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:09 2001
Broadcast message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia in 'gutsy':
Well, the judge has apparently decided to send that
press I wrote last night and try to add in my orders
from then now which obviously is giving me an error
flag and a couple of you will recieve press that was
sent before the moves. Sorry about that.
Hopefully this will clear my error flag too.
Adam........
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:12 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
I can only blame myself :-( I know I was too silent to be trusted. I hope
my moves show that I am on your side. Adam is trying to get me on his side
to attack you but once again I will not do it.
Thanks for not moving to Aeg. I will retreat there.
My army in Venice is waiting for you to tell where to go. Also I am ready
to do whatever you want me to as long as the goal is to keep RT as small
as possible. Please move back to Greece. Depending on my other moves I am
considering the possiblity of supporting your Alb-Gre if you want.
If you can move Bul-Con that would guarantee Smyrna to me. I see that you
are most likely not able to do that. I hope I can talk you enough from now
on so that we can make AI the most solid alliance on board.
Did you know about the RT co-operation? What Adam was suggestin to you
before the moves? He insisted that I should convoy to Albania and attack
Trieste. Eric didn't give much info of what was going to happen.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:14 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> My army in Venice is waiting for you to tell where to go. Also I am ready
> to do whatever you want me to as long as the goal is to keep RT as small
> as possible. Please move back to Greece. Depending on my other moves I am
> considering the possiblity of supporting your Alb-Gre if you want.
I will move Alb-Gre. I don't think I'll need your support. As you can
see, you are free to move Venice wherever. Since I am not in Trieste,
you are free to move it without fear.
> If you can move Bul-Con that would guarantee Smyrna to me. I see that you
> are most likely not able to do that. I hope I can talk you enough from now
> on so that we can make AI the most solid alliance on board.
I think you should support Aeg-Smy. I think it will work. I don't think
I will be able to move Bul-Con, but I do think that you will still get
Smy. If Russia orders Con S Smy, he will lose in other ways. In the
worst case scenario, you can remove A Tun. With Russia in Con, Turkey is
still weak, and I will be able to move to Con in the near future.
Russia's units are pooly placed, and hopefully I will have an advantage
against him soon.
> Did you know about the RT co-operation? What Adam was suggestin to you
> before the moves? He insisted that I should convoy to Albania and attack
> Trieste. Eric didn't give much info of what was going to happen.
No, Turkey and I did not communicate at all. He had sent me an "I told
you so" message after Russia attacked me, so I didn't bother
communicating with him. There was nothing he could do to help me against
Russia anyway.
Russia and I communicated, but he gave no hints about what he would do.
I tried to convince him that Germany was a threat and that he should pull
out of Austria, but Germany didn't move against him, so I was wrong there.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:16 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to England in 'gutsy':
Did you expect Germany to move like that? I can't tell what Germany will
do. It seems to me that he has sunch a great opportunity to attack
France and Russia with your cooperation.
Russia's units are pooly placed against me, so I hope to gain an
advantage against him soon. I don't know how he convinced Turkey to
support him to Constantinpole. This looks like a mistake too.
I am glad to see Italy is not against me, yet.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:17 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
It looks like you have plenty of options this coming turn. It will be
interesting to see what you decide to do.
For my part, Russia's units are poorly placed against me, so I expect to
be able to gain some advantage against him soon, as long as Italy does
not join him.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:18 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
However did you convince Turkey to support you to Constantinople? I did
not expect that.
Are you going to let Italy take Smyrna? I don't understand your plan.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:20 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Good to hear from you.
Why did you move to Albania? I told you that I am not coming against
you. Who was the one who told you that I'll move there? Adam, I guess.
AI has the advantage againt RT that France is not coming against me but
in north Sweden is under pressure if Russia starts to grow.
> I will move Alb-Gre. I don't think I'll need your support. As you can
> see, you are free to move Venice wherever. Since I am not in Trieste,
> you are free to move it without fear.
I was thinking about agreed bounce in Trieste or I could support you to
Trieste if you will or I could move to Tyroria with intention to go to
Bohemia to help you against Russia. I can only hold if you want me to.
If you don't tell me explicitly what to do with Venice I'll most probably
hold.
> I think you should support Aeg-Smy. I think it will work. I don't think
> I will be able to move Bul-Con, but I do think that you will still get
> Smy. If Russia orders Con S Smy, he will lose in other ways. In the
> worst case scenario, you can remove A Tun. With Russia in Con, Turkey is
> still weak, and I will be able to move to Con in the near future.
> Russia's units are pooly placed, and hopefully I will have an advantage
> against him soon.
Russia is saying that he will support Smyrna. He speaks that way because
he wants me to take a center from you. I think that he is only trying to
get me to attack you. In worst case scenario I'll dispand Tunis.
> No, Turkey and I did not communicate at all. He had sent me an "I told
> you so" message after Russia attacked me, so I didn't bother
> communicating with him. There was nothing he could do to help me against
> Russia anyway.
Eric tried to get me to attack you too. Like I said previously between
RAI, Eric is far from dead.
> Russia and I communicated, but he gave no hints about what he would do.
> I tried to convince him that Germany was a threat and that he should pull
> out of Austria, but Germany didn't move against him, so I was wrong there.
It was sad to see no moves against Russia in north.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:23 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> However did you convince Turkey to support you to
> Constantinople? I did not expect that.
He offered, nice of him I thought. I guess he was hoping
that Italy would take Gre and that I would go for Bul
in the fall leaving Con open for him. Also a good plan,
but it's hard to get Raine to agree to anything that
isn't "Kill Eric As Quickly As Possible". I'm sure
you know about that problem.
> Are you going to let Italy take Smyrna? I don't understand your plan.
My plan keeps going wrong, just so you know. I have
a new plan every phase at the moment, which is flexible
of me, heh.
If Italy wants Smy, then Italy has to do some favours for
me as well, I'm not going along with his "Kill Eric and
Talk About It Later" plans anymore, they're dumb.
Adam.........
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:29 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Why did you move to Albania? I told you that I am not coming against
> you. Who was the one who told you that I'll move there? Adam, I guess.
> AI has the advantage againt RT that France is not coming against me but
> in north Sweden is under pressure if Russia starts to grow.
I moved to Albania not to protect against you, but to be able to support
myself to Trieste in case Russia had moved Ser-Tri, which I thought he might.
> I was thinking about agreed bounce in Trieste or I could support you to
> Trieste if you will or I could move to Tyroria with intention to go to
> Bohemia to help you against Russia. I can only hold if you want me to.
> If you don't tell me explicitly what to do with Venice I'll most probably
> hold.
Holding it seems the best option to me. Please don't move it to Trieste,
in any case.
> Russia is saying that he will support Smyrna. He speaks that way because
> he wants me to take a center from you. I think that he is only trying to
> get me to attack you. In worst case scenario I'll dispand Tunis.
Okay. Just to be clear, I wil let you take Greece once I have taken
Rumania from Russia. I think that you will probably be able to get
Smyrna this turn, but just in case, don't worry about your future builds,
because they will be there. Russia's fleets put him in a poor attack
position against me, and he won't want to or be able to defend Turkey for
much longer.
> Eric tried to get me to attack you too. Like I said previously between
> RAI, Eric is far from dead.
His units are useless, and now that Russia has taken Con instead of you,
the only way Turkey will ever grow is if you attack Greece instead of
Smyrna. I would not be surprised to see Turkey support himself to Con
and hope that you do not attack Smy.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:31 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Thanks for taking Con. Hopefully we can hold out.
>He said that if I refused to cut Ank support then he would
>gang up with Keith against you and I. I doubt they'll find
>much in common but you never know, the threat was there
>anyway. The AI vs RT fight would be about even in total
>after this year anyway by the look of things.
Even in terms of Centers, perhaps, but do you really
think they can coordinate well enough to be effective?
>I guess he MIGHT still try for Gre in the fall, but Knowing his dogged
>determination he'll take Smy
Or convoy to Syr, though that risks being forced to
disband.
>It might be worth ordering F Con S A Smy but Bul could
>well cut that support. Hard to be sure, it might try
>for Bul just as easily I guess. I imagine that Raine
>and Keith can argue about that for the whole negotation
>period.
Yes, I'm not sure Keith can afford to ignore the
possibility of Ven-Tri, and a supported attack on
Gre, and risk losing Bul to save a Center for Raine.
Eric.
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:38 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Well, good luck in the coming turn then. My offer still stands. If you
retreat, or if you no longer occupy any supply centers that were once
mine (Serbia and Bulgaria), then I will consider the conflict between us
in the past, and we can decide what would be best for us to do together.
The more you resist, the more upset I get, and the more likely I will try
to take Rumania, or whatever.
It looks like we will have some time to sort this out. I was wrong about
Germany (I think, though he could still attack France and take Sweden,
which is his only opportunity for a build this year), so there is some
breathing room.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:46 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> I moved to Albania not to protect against you, but to be able to support
> myself to Trieste in case Russia had moved Ser-Tri, which I thought he might.
Ok, just let me know if you want me to help against possible Ser-Tri.
Didn't Adam tell you that I will attack you? This would be weird. I think
it was to Adam's benefit to get you as confused as possible.
> Holding it seems the best option to me. Please don't move it to Trieste,
> in any case.
Ok, I won't do it unless you ask me to.
> Okay. Just to be clear, I wil let you take Greece once I have taken
> Rumania from Russia. I think that you will probably be able to get
> Smyrna this turn, but just in case, don't worry about your future builds,
> because they will be there. Russia's fleets put him in a poor attack
> position against me, and he won't want to or be able to defend Turkey for
> much longer.
I agree. I do not need to worry of my future builds. I will be patient and
help you the best way I can on your fight against Russia.
> His units are useless, and now that Russia has taken Con instead of you,
> the only way Turkey will ever grow is if you attack Greece instead of
> Smyrna. I would not be surprised to see Turkey support himself to Con
> and hope that you do not attack Smy.
Yes, his units are useless but there is still a chance that I need to
dispand. His units are preventing Smyrna from me :-)
Raine
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:50 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Ok, just let me know if you want me to help against possible Ser-Tri.
> Didn't Adam tell you that I will attack you? This would be weird. I think
> it was to Adam's benefit to get you as confused as possible.
No, he did not mention that.
> Yes, his units are useless but there is still a chance that I need to
> dispand. His units are preventing Smyrna from me :-)
If Russia does support Smy, he will have made a bad move that will cost
him dearly. I think in the end he will not make this move, although he
will try to convince you that this is what he has planned. I think it
will be to your advantage to attack Smy.
It is going to take a year or so for my to get my units in the right
positions, but after this I think that AI can roll through RT fairly easily.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:52 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> No, he did not mention that.
This was a surprise.
> If Russia does support Smy, he will have made a bad move that will cost
> him dearly. I think in the end he will not make this move, although he
> will try to convince you that this is what he has planned. I think it
> will be to your advantage to attack Smy.
At the moment I think Adam is bluffing. He would love to see me attacking
you so he is desperate.
> It is going to take a year or so for my to get my units in the right
> positions, but after this I think that AI can roll through RT fairly easily.
I agree. This is why I'd rather work with you than Adam. IR would favour
more Adam than me. I think AI is more balanced.
I am going to be off-line for ~10 hours. So I'll get back to you earlies
after that.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:58 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> If only Raine would start behaving rationally too huh?
I'll send him a note and see what he says, but I suspect he won't be too happy
about your move to Con. Still, he could take Smy while you use F Con against
Austria, so maybe you'll both get what you want.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 09 20:31:56 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> You are my best friend :-) Thanks for doing like you promised.
I am happy to oblige. :-) I am also very pleased with the turn results, though
Russia's attack on Con is probably not what you wanted to see. Fortunately, it
came in the Spring, and you can make up for it in the Fall with a supported attack
on Smy - as long as Adam doesn't order Con S Smy. Perhaps you should contact him
and see what he says.
> It certainly looks like FG.
Yes, that is the current plan.
> Keith is seeing ghosts. Austria really isn't a fleet power
> one can say that by looking what Austrian fleet is doing.
It does seem weird that he would leave Gre open like that. Maybe he'll now do
Vie-Tri, Alb-Gre.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 09 20:32:07 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
Keith,
Knocking Russia out of Gal certainly helps, and his fleet in Rum isn't really a
threat - but best of all, Bla-Con might lead to an I/R spat. Maybe you can turn that
to your advantage.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 09 20:32:19 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
Hopefully you can now get Russia on your side, but things will still be difficult.
Raine has a supported attack on Smy, and Adam may be too distracted to help you defend it.
I guess I ought to apologize for not barging into the Med to come to your rescue,
but I have other opportunities to pursue, ya know? :-)
Rod
From - Tue Oct 09 20:32:26 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> Knocking Russia out of Gal certainly helps, and his fleet in Rum isn't
> really a threat - but best of all, Bla-Con might lead to an I/R spat.
> Maybe you can turn that to your advantage.
Yes, if I can keep Italy on my side, then I should be okay. Russia's
units are poorly positioned against me.
What about you? Do you think Germany will honor his agreements? Or will
he work with England against you? I would not be surprised to see
Germany take Sweden with support from England this turn.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 09 20:32:29 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Well, good luck in the coming turn then.
And almost as much luck to you. :)
> My offer still stands. If you
> retreat, or if you no longer occupy any supply centers that were once
> mine (Serbia and Bulgaria), then I will consider the conflict between us
> in the past, and we can decide what would be best for us to do together.
Any specific suggestions? It seems that most of the supply centers
in my immediate vacinity are yours.
> It looks like we will have some time to sort this out. I was wrong about
> Germany (I think, though he could still attack France and take Sweden,
> which is his only opportunity for a build this year),
Or I might support him into Norway in return for support
into StP next year, or let him take Sweeden while he supports
me into Norway. There are many posibilities.
> so there is some breathing room.
I'm having real difficulties cooperating with Raine, this was
a problem right from the get-go. If only he were between us
rather than you between he and I things would go much more
smoothly. I've started to resort to threatening him with
forcing him to disband if he doesn't do as I want and he still
says "Let's kill Eric First", he's like a broken record,
it's annoying.
Adam......
From - Tue Oct 09 20:32:39 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> I'll send him a note and see what he says, but I suspect he won't
> be too happy about your move to Con. Still, he could take Smy
> while you use F Con against Austria, so maybe you'll both get
> what you want.
No, that isn't what I want really. I moved to Con and told
Raine that I was intending to do so. I suggested he move to
Tri and convoy to Alb but he refused. Negotations broke
down and I said that I intended to dislodge that fleet
and that the only way he'd get a build this year was
following my suggestions.
Now if I support Smy (which I may well do) then the only way
he can avoid a disband is to attack Keith, which is all
I've wanted him to do for over a year now. Please encourage
him to do this rather than continue with his broken record
of 'killing Eric first' since it's not what I intend or
want to do at all.
Adam..........
From - Tue Oct 09 20:32:45 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
I think Keith's modus operandi is to sow seeds of doubt and mistrust. He told Adam
that EG were going to attack him, he just insinuated to me that EG might attack me,
and I think he told Raine that I was about to move into the Med. I suppose he might be
feeding you crap as well. I just wanted you to know that I intend to ignore him.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 09 20:32:46 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Now if I support Smy (which I may well do) then the only way
> he can avoid a disband is to attack Keith, which is all
> I've wanted him to do for over a year now.
Ah, now I understand. I'm not sure whether Raine is receptive to this sort of
diplomacy", but since reasoning with him didn't work, I guess this is your best
option. Hopefully if you tell him that he won't get Smy, he'll resort to other
options. I'll try to reinforce whatever you tell him.
I might suggest to Steve that he move to Ska then support you to Nwy. Is that
good for you, or would you prefer something else?
Rod
From - Tue Oct 09 20:32:48 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> Do you think Germany will honor his agreements?
It's hard to say. He moved as I expected *this* turn, so hopefully that will continue.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 09 20:32:49 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
Adam told me that he intends to support Smy in order to force you to attack Austria.
I guess your choice is to either take Gre or get Keith to tap Con.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 09 20:32:50 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> Ah, now I understand. I'm not sure whether Raine is receptive
> to this sort of "diplomacy", but since reasoning with him didn't
> work, I guess this is your best option.
Exactly, I've been trying to talk him into it for ages and
all he ever says is "yeah, after Eric's dead", which is no
use to me. He even proposed a plan which gave Keith a build,
me a 50/50 at a build and wiped Eric out. Not a good plan
for me I'm afraid. I don't like trying this kind of
gunboat diplomacy on anyone but something has to work
eventually doesn't it?
> Hopefully if you tell him that he won't get Smy, he'll resort
> to other options. I'll try to reinforce whatever you tell him.
So far his other options are "I'll take the disband and help
Kieth destroy you any way I can" which isn't so nice. We haven't
stopped talking yet but it's not a good sign. I think he's
prepared to at least think about it now so hopefully if I
slip back into being tactfull I'll get somewhere. Finally.
> I might suggest to Steve that he move to Ska then support you
> to Nwy. Is that good for you, or would you prefer something else?
We've been talking about Scandanavia for a while. Steve says
he's happy for me to have two centers up there so StP and
Norway do make the most sense. I'd sceed Sweeden to him in
that eventuallity most likey. It can only help if he thinks
lots of people think it's a good idea :)
Adam..........
From - Tue Oct 09 20:32:52 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> Any specific suggestions? It seems that most of the supply centers
> in my immediate vacinity are yours.
Sure, I suggest that you move Rum-Bla and Ser-Rum, letting me have Serbia
back. This will go a long way towards normalizing our relations.
> I'm having real difficulties cooperating with Raine, this was
> a problem right from the get-go. If only he were between us
> rather than you between he and I things would go much more
> smoothly. I've started to resort to threatening him with
> forcing him to disband if he doesn't do as I want and he still
> says "Let's kill Eric First", he's like a broken record,
> it's annoying.
Yes. I find it strange that, knowing this, you decided to attack me.
You've given me no opportunity to attack Italy, so it seems like you're
stuck with him for now.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 09 20:32:54 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
> I have been way too busy to play high rated game as it should
> be played.
I understand; I hope real life is giving you a break. We've both been
pretty busy but we should definitely talk more often. My inbox is full of
press from AEFR; I owe everyone a letter except Eric.
I'm writing you first because your moves in the east are very important to
my success just as I think my moves in the west are important to your
success. I'm sorry you lost Con, but now that it must retreat, would you
consider trying for Greece?
It's not that I want to see Adam or Eric grow; it's just that I very much
want you to get a sixth center. Your growth helps me out because it
balances the eastern situation and it makes Rod a bit more cautious in the
west.
Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 09 20:32:56 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
I want to back up a sec and respond to something you wrote in an earlier
letter.
> Now, the West will resolve while the East resolves and you're
> likely to find yourselves in an RI vs. FG endgame that will leave
> no hope of a solo, and make reducing to a 2 or 3-way draw
> difficult to impossible
I understand what you're saying here; there's no way I want this game to end
as a 2-on-2. I know you haven't gotten off to a lightning start, but you
still have many options. Long-term, I would much rather work with you than
anyone else on the board.
Okay, enough brown-nosing. :)
What press can I write to help you out? I'd like to see you take Con while
keeping Smyrna.
I'm encouraging Raine to go after Greece, but besides that, is there
anything I should say?
Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 09 20:33:17 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
> Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> Looks like I'm next on the out list.
Yes, it does.
> To be fair, I've been facing a strong FG alliance all game, just like
> you've been facing a strong alliance on your side.
I don't see that myself; Steve's S1902M were more anti-French than
anti-English in my opinion, and you had the opportunity to establish the
Western Triple in F'02, and slowly build to a point where you could
stab either F or G in the mid-game, but you went for the quick gain,
instead.
> I had to try something to break it. If I had built army Liverpool, I
> would've either been a sitting duck for an FG alliance, or a pawn to
> one of them.
I don't agree. Had you committed to building Armies before taking
Lon, I could have argued that you were committed to the WT, and
begged Steve and Rod to stick with it to bring me some relief. Would
they have? I think so, based on what they were saying to me. The
Russian retreat in F'02 just left him wide open to an EG attack Given
that Rod moved south in F'02, I think he would have continued in that
direction as long as you weren't threatening him, and Armies don't
threaten France.
> With so few fleets of my own, I would've been entirely dependent on
> theirs, and pretty much crippled at their will.
England only needs two Fleets to attack Russia. If you felt the need
for a third Fleet, you could have built one in Edi, in a year or two, after
some measure of trust had been established, and FG were committed
to their eastern attacks.
> why the fleet in Liverpool you ask? Because Rod has also made it clear
> that he chose his alliances based on where he saw the best potential for
> gain. My hope was that by building defensively and then offering him an
> alliance, I had a shot at convincing him that attacking Germany was the
> better way to go. Obviously I failed to break them up, but I stand behind
> my methods even now.
This sounds like Raine's reasoning to me. 8-) If you want to ally with
France, that means you're attacking Germany, and F Edi is much more
useful against Germany than F Lvp is. Generally speaking, if your builds
threaten a high-level player, and F Lvp threatens France, they will assume
you mean to attack, no matter what you say.
> I'm not ashamed to make this game the first one in which I've been
> eliminated after starting the game, though I am disappointed. But after
> all, I will last longer than you, right? ;-)
Perhaps, perhaps not. Adam seems to realize that Raine is not a good
long-term alliance prospect, and Keith is just too quiet, so he might keep
me on as a flunky and tactical advisor. We'll have to see.
Eric the Not-Quite-Dead-Yet.
From - Tue Oct 09 20:33:19 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> Hopefully you can now get Russia on your side, but things will still be
> difficult. Raine has a supported attack on Smy, and Adam may be too
> distracted to help you defend it.
Hopefully Keith will be too busy defending Bul/Gre to cut Con S Smy.
> I guess I ought to apologize for not barging into the Med to come to
> your rescue, but I have other opportunities to pursue, ya know? :-)
Yeah, this seems to be a game where everyone likes me, but no-one
listens to me... 8-)
Eric.
From - Tue Oct 09 20:33:20 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
[I feel that I ought to explain myself, though I suspect that you still
won't like it.]
Of course I don't like it, but I agree that you made the right decision
given the situation.
[ I was confident that your negotiations were sincere. ]
Hehe, I think this was one of my problems. Quite frequently in this game
my sincerity has been construed as a sign of weakness or vulnerability!
[Steven agreed to the requirements that I had for F/G cooperation, and
it seemed that our plan had a good chance of success. I was a little
nervous about it, but I think the turn results confirm that I made the
right choice.]
I agree. I think Steve is the one who screwed up, and I intend to prove
it to him.
[Betraying a plan made in good
faith is the least enjoyable part of the game for me, and I regret that
E/F didn't work out. That's probably more my fault than yours, and I
hope that some day we have a fresh opportunity to work together as
allies - with a positive result.]
Me too. Who knows, maybe we'll still have a chance in this game.
Situations are always changing, faster in this than most. The situation I
am in now mirrors quite closely that I was in in teachme, and I managed to
survive until the end of that game. Do not fear that your actions this turn
have made it impossible for us to work together, and please let me know if
there is any further opportunity for us to cooperate.
Brent
From - Tue Oct 09 20:33:25 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Austria in 'gutsy':
[Did you expect Germany to move like that?]
Yes, unfortunately, I did. His build and his press said it all.
[It seems to me that he has sunch a great opportunity to attack
France and Russia with your cooperation.]
Preaching to the choir! But obviously he didn't see it that way.
[Russia's units are pooly placed against me, so I hope to gain an
advantage against him soon. I don't know how he convinced Turkey to
support him to Constantinpole. This looks like a mistake too.]
I don't know. Eric is looking for a friend anywhere he can get one, and
now there's one less unit on his border. Plus an alliance with Raine
doesn't gain you very much, as I've learned already.
Anyways, I don't plan to let Steven benefit from his "mistake". If you
ever find yourself in a position to lend a hand, I'd greatly appreciate it!
Brent
From - Tue Oct 09 20:33:26 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
[I am glad that you didn't tell me your intensions. I would be the one to
blame.]
Yep, its definitely less complex this way.
[I can see your point when you say that I made a mistake. Let's put it this
way, I am not satisfied with the results either.]
Good to hear that you're willing to admit this.
[Could you reveal what you were up to? I mean, did you have a agreement
with Germany to work against France?]
Nope, other way around. Either way I knew Steven was against me, I had to
hope that I could convince Rod to join me. Obviously Steve offered him too
good of a deal.
[What are you doing with Adam? He is for sure building to Moscow and taking
Stp back.]
Nothing unfortunately. I've got more important concerns than trying to
defend StP at this point. I'm hopeful that will change.
Brent
From - Tue Oct 09 20:33:31 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hey, Steve,
> > Now, the West will resolve while the East resolves and you're
> > likely to find yourselves in an RI vs. FG endgame that will leave
> > no hope of a solo, and make reducing to a 2 or 3-way draw
> > difficult to impossible
>
> I understand what you're saying here; there's no way I want this
> game to end as a 2-on-2. I know you haven't gotten off to a
> lightning start, but you still have many options. Long-term, I
> would much rather work with you than anyone else on the board.
Honestly, my long-term strategic vision is the weakest part of my
game, (as is true for everyone at this level, I think), and I know that
alliance structures could easily shift long before we get to RI vs. FG,
especially given Raine's uncompromising negotiating style. Indeed,
RF Con is the first evidence of a split between Raine and Adam. I
will certainly work to widen that split, and I may be able to hang on
as Russia's lap-dog, and somehow manage to get back into
contention, but at this point, the odds still favor my being the first one
eliminated.
> What press can I write to help you out
> I'm encouraging Raine to go after Greece, but besides that, is there
> anything I should say?
A "friendly" word of warning to Keith that you've heard that Raine
may go after Gre and Tri couldn't hurt. Continuing to complain to
Adam about Raine's inflexibility would be good to.
Eric the Not-Quite-Dead-Yet. 8-)
From - Wed Oct 10 18:25:40 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
[Steve's S1902M were more anti-French than anti-English in my opinion, and
you had the opportunity to establish the Western Triple in F'02]
And believe me I would have loved it to continue. But you didn't recieve
the messages that I did. Like the one from Rod that said "I think we should
seriously consider turning our attention to matters in the west" or the one
from Steve that said basically the same. My builds had very little to do
with the triple falling apart, because it fell apart the moment that Russia
stabbed Austria. There was no longer any need for it in Steve's mind, and
that meant that Rod couldn't afford to follow it even if he wanted to.
[ Had you committed to building Armies before taking
Lon, I could have argued that you were committed to the WT, and
begged Steve and Rod to stick with it to bring me some relief. Would
they have? I think so, based on what they were saying to me.]
Well, I'm going out on a limb here, but thats probably because they knew
that you were the player I liked the most on the board, and figured that
anything they said to you would get filtered to me. Both Rod and Steve have
already sent me "explanatory" letters about why they had to attack me,
Steve's even an hour or so before the deadline. It had nothing to do with
my builds, because it was all decided before the builds even happened. They
had position, and knew they could finish me off quickly. My recapturing
London slowed them ever so slightly, but I had to trust one of them, and
that was my downfall. Rod chose Germany as an ally because despite my build
in Liverpool, I was still not defended as well as Steve was. Even together
we would've had a hard time making progress, where as he's guaranteed
progress with Steve. And Steve chose France because... well, that I'm not
so sure on. I guess he saw me as more vulnerable, but in the end I think
he'll regret the decision.
[Given that Rod moved south in F'02, I think he would have continued in that
direction as long as you weren't threatening him]
OK, here I can pretty much guarantee that you were wrong. Rod told me
even before the builds that he had no intention of moving to the Med. And
why should he, with Raine blindly sailing East to fight in a battle he won't
benefit from?
[Generally speaking, if your builds threaten a high-level player, and F Lvp
threatens France, they will assume you mean to attack, no matter what you
say.]
I think you'll find in the final analysis that you're wrong here too. Rod
knew I wouldn't attack him, but he also knew that he could benefit more from
attacking me than siding with me.
[ Perhaps, perhaps not. Adam seems to realize that Raine is not a good
long-term alliance prospect, and Keith is just too quiet, so he might keep
me on as a flunky and tactical advisor. We'll have to see.]
I hope you realize this was a joke. I make no bets whatsoever as to who
will last longer, in fact given Russia's moves I think you've got the better
odds. I also hope that you don't think I'm being overly contrary in all the
above. I just don't want you to think that I'm a complete idiot until after
you've seen the full press history and you know what I knew. Then you can
call me an idiot all you want. Until then, you'll just have to trust me.
Best of luck to you, and maybe I can be YOUR personal advisor sometime soon!
Brent
From - Wed Oct 10 18:26:12 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
I'm just writing to re-connect before the retreats are in. Please read this
through and try not to form any more nasty opinions of me until you see
"Thanks. - Steve". I know that's difficult to do, but once you're done
reading, feel free to form whatever opinions you'd like. :)
I once told you that I play this game as a 6-on-1 so I hope none of this
surprises you.
Raine's retreat is a given and I hope Adam's is as well, but you have
several options, each with its own set of pros and cons.
If you retreat to the Skag, you have an excellent chance of taking Sweden,
but you'll probably lose London. I've played an "England in exile" before
and it wasn't pretty. Maybe your relationship with Adam is so poor that
this is your only real option. I just don't know.
On the other hand, you have the armies needed to hold the isle itself for
quite some time so nth - yor makes a ton of sense. With that retreat, you
can hold both London and Liverpool, but risk Adam and I cooperating in
Norway.
The only one that doesn't make much sense to me is the remaining option. It
seems to me that nth - nwg has the disadvantages of nth - ska without the
benefits. I'd like to hear your thoughts though.
The next question I ask myself is: "How can EG cooperate? What set of
moves serves both of our purposes?"
That's a tricky one, but I bet if we think hard enough a bunch of good
possibilities will emerge. Here's one option, not the only one, but it
would certainly surprise Rod and give both of us part of what we want. No
promises here you understand, but it might be a start.
Let's call this "Operation Mid-Atlantic":
Assuming you retreat to the Skag...
If you order nao - mao, I'll order nth - eng. As long as you order edi -
lvp, you won't lose more than one home center. You can take Sweden by
yourself and I can support Denmark in place just to be sure. You and I will
stay even; Adam will lose his presence in the north, but Rod will get a
build.
To offset Rod's build, I can retake Burgundy (that pretty much forces an
army build, but I'm willing to take the heat). If Rod does what I expect
him to do, we'll probably end up with F Mao, F Eng, and A Bur at year's end.
In S'04 you could walk into Por and swing your fleets back from Norway (all
we need is F Swe and F Den for you and I to be peaceful, because I could
still protect Den with Hel).
Does that make any sense to you or am I just talking to myself?
Bottom line: I'm not trying to convince you of anything; I just want to let
you know the possibilities I see. I had this same type of discussion with
Adam and Keith last year (and Rod for that matter) so it seems to work for
me. Please write when you can.
Thanks.
- Steve
Now you can think whatever nasty thoughts you'd like. :)
From - Wed Oct 10 18:26:29 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi,
A couple of thoughts:
> It looks like you have plenty of options this coming turn. It will
> be interesting to see what you decide to do.
Yes, it certainly will be. None of my centers are threatened so I'm pretty
much free to go whichever way I would like. If you were me, what would you
do?
I'm not trying to make you tip your hand or anything. I just know we've
both played a bunch of no-press so I respect your tactical skills more than
I do the others.
> For my part, Russia's units are poorly placed against me, so I
> expect to be able to gain some advantage against him soon, as
> long as Italy does not join him.
That's the way I see it too. You'll have to watch out for Greece, but I
don't expect Adam will give you much trouble (maybe in Bul, but that's only
if Raine goes for Smyrna).
Write if you can, but I expect we will be going in different directions for
a year or two. Just don't give me any more trouble in Munich; I would
really like to use that army somewhere else. :)
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Wed Oct 10 18:27:13 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> I think Steve is the one who screwed up
Why, do you think he would have been better off attacking me instead?
Hmmm, maybe so. You surely weren't planning to help him do it, were
you?! ;-)
> Situations are always changing, faster in this than most.
Very true. This game makes one's head spin.
> please let me know if
> there is any further opportunity for us to cooperate.
Well, I'm always looking for a good lackey to help me win - or did you
have loftier goals? :-)
Rod
From - Wed Oct 10 18:27:15 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
[Why, do you think he would have been better off attacking me instead?]
Well, in a manner of speaking, yes.
[Hmmm, maybe so. You surely weren't planning to help him do it, were
you?! ;-)]
Once long ago I was, but by the time I was negotiating this deal with you
I had pretty much given up on any hope (or desire) to work with him.
[Well, I'm always looking for a good lackey to help me win - or did you
have loftier goals? :-)]
That depends, is revenge a loftier goal? And I don't mean against you.
Seriously though, I think I'd make a good lackey. I can press the other
players so much that they're begging to be eliminated from the game! I've
never been eliminated from a game I started (except by a solo), and it would
certainly be nice to keep that going through this game. The question is
what would I give you as a lackey that you can't take yourself? I can think
of some answers myself, but I'm interested in hearing your opinion.
Brent
From - Wed Oct 10 18:27:18 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
First I'll respond to your last letter then I'll add couple of new thoughts:
> I think Keith's modus operandi is to sow seeds of doubt
> and mistrust. He told Adam that EG were going to attack
> him, he just insinuated to me that EG might attack me, and
> I think he told Raine that I was about to move into the Med.
> I suppose he might be feeding you crap as well. I just
> wanted you to know that I intend to ignore him.
Yes, I've seen this before with him. It seems like his first round of press
is always "Hi Power A, Power B is trying to get you." or if that's failed
before "Hi Power A, you had better watch out for a BC alliance."
Other thoughts:
1) Thank you for convoying to Wales (feels good huh?). Plus, that makes
*me* feel a whole bunch safer; and it gives you an assured build.
2) Is there some way we could try for both London *and* Lvp? We don't have
the units to force both, but we might be able to guess.
3) I don't know what your relationship with Brent is like right now, but
can you encourage him to retreat nth - ska? Yea, that's probably the worst
retreat for me, but I think it would help both of us out long term.
4) Okay, here's the biggy. It looks like you'll be getting a build in
either lvp or lon. Are you willing to let me keep Belgium until we get out
of balance?
Thanks, Rod, I appreciate the way our partnership is developing. Write when
you can.
- Steve
From - Wed Oct 10 18:27:20 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> That depends, is revenge a loftier goal?
It can be. I guess it all depends on your priorities.
> Seriously though, I think I'd make a good lackey. I can press the other
> players so much that they're begging to be eliminated from the game!
:-)
> The question is
> what would I give you as a lackey that you can't take yourself?
That's an excellent question! But the first issue is that I generally
don't trust a lackey til after I've knocked him down to one or two
centers. More viable powers tend to develop plans of their own. OTOH,
an impotent lackey might not be of much use.
I think the ideal lackey has been displaced from his homeland, has no
visions of reclaiming it and growing, and has his remaining units in a
useful position that someone else can't easily reach. Hmmm. A fleet in
Bal or an army in Russia might be useful to me some day, but that seems
like a long shot.
Rod
From - Wed Oct 10 18:27:21 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> 1) Thank you for convoying to Wales (feels good huh?).
Yes, I'm very glad it succeeded. :-)
> 2) Is there some way we could try for both London *and* Lvp? We don't have
> the units to force both, but we might be able to guess.
> 4) Okay, here's the biggy. It looks like you'll be getting a build in
> either lvp or lon. Are you willing to let me keep Belgium until we get out
> of balance?
I want a build this year. Whether it's Bel or Lon or Lvp is not that
big a deal. And taking as many as possible from England is always good.
Let's see where he retreats then discuss it further.
> 3) I don't know what your relationship with Brent is like right now, but
> can you encourage him to retreat nth - ska? Yea, that's probably the worst
> retreat for me, but I think it would help both of us out long term.
Any retreat other than Yor would enable us to guarantee both Lvp and
Lon. He does seem to be willing to talk, but I doubt he'd be receptive
to just doing whatever I suggest. I'll see what I can do.
Rod
From - Wed Oct 10 18:27:28 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
Brent,
I really don't think you're an idiot, and I accept that you made the
decision you felt was best for England. We all operate on limited
information, and from
the prejudices of our personal positions in this game, and my "diatribe"
about the
downfall of the WT was part frustration that my best hope for survival had
just
collapsed, and also an attempt to exert influence on EFG. A WT is an
unnatural
thing, and is always subject to pressure to collapse, but it can work, too.
Had
you taken my advice, and Convoyed to Nwy, taken Swe, and built A Edi,
would FG have stabbed you? Only they can say, and odds are, even they don't
know the answer for sure.
Eric.
From - Wed Oct 10 18:27:30 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to France and Germany in
'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
If you haven't sent your EoYs to Roger, could you do me a favor and do
so,
and address the question of what you would have done, if Brent had listened
to
my advice, and taken Swe, convoyed to Nwy, and built A Edi last Fall.
Thanks,
Eric.
From - Wed Oct 10 18:28:01 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> Both E and G have sent me proposals for attacking the other. I think
> I already know which way I'm going to go, but knowing your plans for F
> Swe will help me evaluate the ramifications of my decision.
>
> If you really don't care whether you hit Nwy or Hold, perhaps I could
> tell you which I might prefer. Of course, we should hold our
> conversations in the strictest confidence regardless. We might
> side with E or G for a time, but our long-term goal should
> be to grow at their expense. I realize that you have other
> priorities right now, but if you can help me grow in the north
> now, it makes things easier for you when you're ready to make your
> own push in the north.
I'll promise to be quiet about it, but as a guess you'd
rather I bounced Norway to give Germany a greater chance
of holding Nth until next year. Correct?
Adam............
From - Wed Oct 10 18:28:04 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: S1903R Wed Oct 10 2001 23:04:42 +1300
Retreat orders for Spring of 1903. (gutsy.008)
England: Fleet North Sea -> Skagerrak.
Italy: Fleet Constantinople -> Aegean Sea.
Russia: Army Galicia -> Ukraine.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Movement for Fall of 1903.
The deadline for orders will be Tue Oct 16 2001 20:00:00 +1300.
