Spring 1902
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From - Sat Sep 22 13:13:44 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England and Italy in 'gutsy':
Brent,
> Adjustment orders for Winter of 1901. (gutsy.003)
>
> Italy: Builds a fleet in Naples.
> Turkey: Builds a fleet in Ankara.
Once again, I move against Russia, and once again, Italy continues
with the Lepanto. I'd advise that you concentrate on Steve as your
only hope, clearly Raine was just stringing us both along, and playing
us for fools. Raine, don't bother saying that you're going to move
Nap-TyS. I certainly won't believe you at this point, and Brent isn't
likely to, either. If you do move that way, I'm sure Brent will
appreciate it, but my Centers will fall to RA, no matter what you do
at this point.
Eric the Turk.
From - Sat Sep 22 13:13:53 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
Alright, its time to put up or shut up as they say. Up until now you're
commitment to EIT has been in words only, and you haven't really made a
single move to confirm your intent. That can't continue, or there won't be
an alliance left to join. So, are you willing to make an attack on France
this Spring?
Brent
From - Sat Sep 22 13:14:04 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
[It's not about you versus Germany - it's about what seemed best for
France at the time.]
I find that hard to believe. An experienced player like you knows that
the short term gain of London is meaningless if you don't have a strong ally
to back you up. By taking London, you made the decision that Germany was
your only real hope for that ally. Being up or down a center in Spring 1901
is inconsequential compared to the long term alliance structure.
[Yes, that's part of it. Also, I didn't really like the idea of
getting only one build while you and Germany each got two. My
motives were purely selfish.]
Good to know I guess. Knowing what motivates someone is often half the
battle. Which leads me too
[E/F cooperation must benefit me more than attacking you.]
A very rational response, and fiting with the motives you described. As
you say, that is difficult to accomplish. What could I promise you that
would have better results for you than attacking? Well, assuming as I'm
sure you do that your attack will be successful, I see only two possible
situations. One would be a more effective attack on someone else.
Unfortunately, I can't really offer that. The other is a situation where
you find yourself under attack. If you were to suddenly be attacked by
Germany and Italy, there would suddenly be very possible benefits to joining
with me. It is interesting how closely the situation in this game follows
that of my previous outing as England. In that game France stabbed early,
but didn't get help from Germany and so his attack stalled once I was at 3
centers. He was then attacked by Italy who began poaching centers from the
South. OF course, in that game, France refused to turn around, and instead
let himself be gobbled up by Italy while he continued to fail in his
attempts to attack me. Italy went on to solo. But I digress...
Given that those two situations are the only ones I can come up with that
would make it attractive for you to work with me, my only real way of trying
to negotiate a peace with you is by trying to get others to attack you. You
will have to gauge for yourself my success in doing so, and let me know if
you see suficient success to warrant a possible change in your own plans.
Brent
From - Sat Sep 22 17:04:21 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Thanks for the note and thanks for the offer of Belgium. Since I probably
won't get another center this year, I'll take it. Thanks.
I understand your desire for me to *not* have an army there long-term. I'll
have to think a bit, but I'm sure that can be done while also pressuring the
North Sea. I haven't thought much about the board since the builds came in
so give me a day or so to come up with something.
Regarding London, I don't see anyway Brent can retake it without losing the
North Sea or Liverpool. Again, I'll need to think a bit. I assume you'll
take the channel and maybe do a convoy in the fall? You're looking pretty
good up there.
Write when you can. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Sat Sep 22 17:04:24 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Ah ha, Turkey is going to make it easy for us. I am supposing he is most
angry against Russia who he perceives as the greatest threat. I suggest
you move to Eas while you have the free chance. I plan to take
Bulgaria. I suppose I could also move Gre-Aeg. What do you think?
I think our strategy should be to devise a set of moves that will get you
one of the Turkish supply centers in the Fall. Is there such a set of
moves, with all three of us using all our resources?
Austria
From - Sat Sep 22 17:04:26 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
You were right about Turkey's build. It seems he is more upset at or
worried about you than Italy.
What do you think about the Spring moves? I would like to destroy the
Bulgarian army. We can do this if I move Ser-Bul supported by Gre and
Rum. However, it might be advantageous to have Italy move to Aeg (though
I have suggested to him that he move to Eas). I think the strategy
should be to get Italy one of the Turkish centers this Fall. Is there a
set of moves that will guarantee this, no matter what Turkey does, if we
all combine our resources?
Austria
From - Sat Sep 22 17:04:28 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Master in 'gutsy':
Austria's year-end statement for 1901.
This hasn't been a particularly interesting year for Austria. My goals
were to get two builds and to promote war between Russia and Turkey, both
of which have been achieved.
I was worried about Italy at first because his initial communications
were rather agressive. Italy has been an asset in a number of ways. I
believe he was primarily responsible for getting Russia to attack
Turkey. Initially, both Italy and I tried to convince Turkey to move
against Russia, which he did. But Italy set up to convoy to Tunis, which
apparently was not what Turkey wanted to see, so Turkey withdrew from
Russia. Meanwhile, Italy promoted the AIR alliance against Turkey, and
Russia, who may have been sitting on the fence before, decided to move
to the Black Sea. Actually, I'm not sure who the biggest proponent of
AIR is, Italy or Russia. And, the inital word was that they wanted to
target Turkey because he had the highest JDPR rating.
I'm happy to go along with AIR for now, but I am soon going to have to
attack either Italy or Russia. Attacking Italy will be easier, I think,
because he has convoyed his army and will move fleets East. Plus, the FG
alliance against Italy means that Germany and Russia may butt heads soon,
more likely than France is to move against Italy. The key here will be
to attack Italy just as he gets one of the Turkish centers. I want
Turkey to be down to two centers so that Russia and I can finish him off.
I have not been too impressed with Russia's tactics. He was actually
considering moving something against Germany early on, and a fleet build
in Sevastopol is rarely a good idea for Russia (I was only too happy to
agree with it when he suggested it). This might be another reason to ally
with Russia rather than Italy, if Russia can be more easily manipulated.
So, the major challenge for Austria in the next coming few years is to
prevent the IR alliance from attacking me.
From - Sat Sep 22 20:54:08 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
OK, here's where I think we are. Raine and the EIT alliance are kind of a
non-issue for a turn. If he moves West, great. But I'm not going to plan
on it. So , my question is, what can the two of us do to help each other?
>From my point of view, the best thing you can do for me is to work your
diplomatic magic on Steve. I think he's favoring me over Rod, but he needs
to be given every reason possible to continue that course. As for what I
can do for you, Are you now at a point where you would like centers taken
from Russia? If so, I would guess that either Sweden or St. Petersburg
could be taken. I doubt that Steve would turn down a support into Sweden,
even if he isn't working with me. But I'm only going to go that route if
you think it will make a difference between your surviving and not. Let me
know what you think, and if there's anything else we can do to help each
other.
Brent
From - Sun Sep 23 07:54:19 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
I am writing 1st to you and then to others. Somehow I like writing to
you. We don't have any tension between us. The tone is right. You can
write in a way that my non-native brains understand you :-)
Our bounce in Munich was a success. I have received mail from people and
at least someone believes that I have ruined GI relations.
> - If R and T are indeed fighting, I think T has the upper hand. Russia's
> position is good, but Turkey can still use Syria to pressure Sev by fall.
> If Eric builds a fleet in Ankara (which he should unless there's a
> juggernaut), he has an excellent chance of knocking Russia out of the Black
> Sea no matter what Russia builds.
I disagree. If R and T are fighting it depends on Austria and Italy who'll
get the upper hand. Let's say that I would be neutral but Austria is on
Russia's side. It means that Turkey will get to Black Sea but he'll be
kicked out from Bulgaria -> Turkey needs to dispand a unit. If Austria
goes with Turkey then Russia will be knocked out from Rumania and Black
Sea.
> - Syria is there to discourage you from trying a Lepanto (and appease Adam).
> Eric is playing a very sophisticated and dangerous game. If you want to try
> Lepanto still, I'd understand.
Syria is there due to talks between Italy and Turkey :-) My moves have
been too much for Eric. He has spent some time to get me our from Lepanto
road. When I have continued that way Eric decided to move to Syria and to
my eyes he overreacted. I mean, one beautiful thing about playing Italy is
the fact that Italy can be neutral for quite a long time. Italy can check
the alliances (or better the lack of several alliances) before comminting
somewhere.
> - Since England is struggling, I don't expect a build in St Pete. Adam
> could still surprise me, but I don't think so.
I am not an expert in reading between the lines but I have the feeling
that GR are more friends than neutral. Would you like to comment this?
> - France will certainly build a fleet in Brest. Without it, he will lose
> London for sure. The other build will be an army, but I'm not sure where.
> If we work together in the spring, there's a very good chance one of us
> could take Marseilles.
Now we know that France built to Paris. Marseilles is not guaranteed for
us. BUT you are making the profits anyway if we try to get to Mar:
Spring
France: Por-Spa (sure bet, isn't it?)
Italy: Tyr-Pie
Germany: Hol-Bel,Kie-Hol and a supported attack to Bur.
This leaves Bur open or there is German army in there. If Bur is left open
you should be in Belgium.
Fall
Italy: Pie S Bur-Mar
Germany: Bur-Mar (it doesn't work the other way around as France could
cut your support. Of course if there will be a possibility that I could
get Mar that would be nice.)
> - I will definitely build an army in Munich. So, I don't think any
> sneakiness through Munich in the spring is possible.
I have no problem with that. When I proposed it, I meant it as something
to think about if the situation is right. Now we have a better choise :-)
> So, given what I just wrote, how would you like to approach the next year?
Let's talk about the plan I suggested above.
Raine
enpress
From - Sun Sep 23 15:43:09 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
Maybe its just because of the weekend, but I'm getting a bit worried about
not having heard from you. Please contact me as soon as you can so I can
know where we stand and can handle my other negotiations accordingly.
Thanks!
Brent
From - Sun Sep 23 15:43:57 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
I'd like to add to my previous note that it might be better for you if you
move Mun s Ruh-Bur, Ruh-Bur. Then you don't have to be afraid of me moving
into Munich. I don't mind either if you lie to me that you support from
Mun and then you give that support from Ruh. The main point for me would
be that you support yourself to Bur.
I am looking forward to your mails.
Raine
From - Sun Sep 23 15:44:02 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Dear R,
Thank you for not building to Mar. I rrreally appreciate it.
Would you like to look at the map? What should be the capital of R? The
answer is clear: Rome. I don't want to be a dictator. So I propose that
you build your headquarters to Ruhr! I would say that Rumania is too far
away at the moment :-)
Yours,
R
Ps. Are you interested in European films? The most famous directors from
Finland are Mika and Aki Kaurismäki. One of them made a film called
Kalmari Union. It was filmed in Finland and all the men were Franks :-)
Yes, they spoke English in that movie.
Typical dialogue was:
-How is it going Frank?
-Just fine, Frank.
If you haven't seen the movie I can recommend it.
I am sure your life would have been miserable without that piece of info
;-)
From - Sun Sep 23 15:44:27 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
So far my game has been what I planned to do with when I picked Italy.
The move to Munich was an exception. I 1st I planned to be neutral in
there but then I wanted to show some loyalty to you. I failed, I know.
Now I am trying to cool Germany... I don't know if I am succesful but I
have talked to him about EGI against F. You might say that you don't
believe me. I understand that. So far I have done the moves I planned to
do as Italy. One good about playing Italy is that you can be neutral for a
long time and see how the alliances form. I failed in that too. Turkey is
mad to me and I don't blame him.
> So, are you willing to make an attack on France
> this Spring?
I am. Especially if we can make a EGI against F. Do you think you are the
one Germany is going to ally with or is it FG?
Raine
From - Sun Sep 23 15:44:29 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Far Side has a translated name here. I like it too. I mentioned Dilbert
> due to computers you were talking about. From Dilbert I have read the best
> computer jokes.
Indeed, it's infinately better than the very bad indeed
User Friendly. Wow that's not funny.
> I agree. Good move from you and Austria. I don't take it as offense. I am
> happy to have people like you as allies. I hope I am more and more
> reliable now.
It looks like Turkey must have been more angry at me
than he is at either of you two. I'll be distracting
him and not gaining anything from him for now I
guess. Should let your Lepanto get underway well
though.
> I have the feeling that Germany wants to wait and see whom to turn to. He
> will be powerful in gutsy. He has the longest straw in west at the moment.
He's doing very well indeed. That fleet build looks pretty
anti-english to me. I think that England has been taking
Steve's word a little to litterally.
> I don't know where Eric will build but RAI should take Bulgaria from
> Turkey now. Could we arrange Bulgary to Austria? I certainly would like to
> get Greece then.
That sounds good to me, I'm happy to help in whatever way
I can. I doubt that Bla's support will count for anything
but Rum should be able to do something. I'll talk to Keith
about supporting him into Bul and maybe letting you take
Gre.
> About your build, F Sev is ok. Later when Turkey is gone I would like you
> to dispand one of your southern fleets.
Probably a good idea, but it's quite a way until Turkey is
dead and gone anyway so we'll talk about it later. I think
that you and Keith should probably talk about your Tyr.
It's a shame it's practically impossible to convoy that
into Turkey but it might be worth noting that it's not
quite impossible. A Tyr - Ven; F Nap - Ion; F Ion - Adr
and F Gre to Aeg set up the fleets to possibly convoy
it to Smy in the fall. Probably not practical, it's probably
easier to get an Austrian army (A Ser?) into Turkey.
So I'll order A Rum S Ser - Bul or A Rum S Gre - Bul
depending on what Austria wants me to do.
Adam........
From - Sun Sep 23 15:44:44 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
> Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> the best thing you can do for me is to work your diplomatic magic
> on Steve. I think he's favoring me over Rod, but he needs to be
> given every reason possible to continue that course.
I've argued consistently with Steve that I think he's better off allying
with you, and will continue to do so, but his decision will be made
based on what you and Rod say to him.
> Are you now at a point where you would like centers taken
> from Russia?
That would certainly prove helpful.
> If so, I would guess that either Swe or StP could be taken.
Probably even both.
> I'm only going to go that route if you think it will make a difference
> between your surviving and not.
It certainly will since the 2nd Russian Fleet is a clear expression
of his intent to eliminate me first.
Eric the Turk.
From - Sun Sep 23 15:44:46 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> You were right about Turkey's build. It seems he is more upset at or
> worried about you than Italy.
It's probably best for the RAT allience that he concentrates
his power on Bla right now anyway. We can take Bul from him
this spring forcing Bul to dispand (unless Con moves into
the Med, and I assume it'll bounce there if it tries)
and then Con can fall in the fall.
> What do you think about the Spring moves? I would like to destroy the
> Bulgarian army. We can do this if I move Ser-Bul supported by Gre and
> Rum. However, it might be advantageous to have Italy move to Aeg (though
> I have suggested to him that he move to Eas). I think the strategy
> should be to get Italy one of the Turkish centers this Fall. Is there a
> set of moves that will guarantee this, no matter what Turkey does, if we
> all combine our resources?
I don't think there's going to be a guarentee that
Italy takes a Turkish center, Syr will no doubt be
in Smy come the fall which would mean an attack on
Smy would need to be supported. That could only be
done from Eas and Aeg. While it is possible to take
Eas in the spring, we can't guarentee Aeg at the same
time.
Attacking Con would need support AND to have Ank
and Smy support both cut. We could cut Ank with
no problem and cutting Smy can be done from Eas
but this leaves nowhere to support the attack
from unless, again, we also have Aeg.
It might be worth risking Gre - Aeg anyway. If
you don't then Con could move there which would
also give Bul a retreat option. At worst it
would fail, and make the Bul attack unsucessful
too, but Bul could still be taken in the fall
and Aeg could be guarenteed from F Eas and F Ion
during the fall too.
Yeah, that looks like the best moves to me:
F Ion - Eas; F Nap - Ion; F Gre - Aeg; A Rum S A Ser - Bul
Then, in the fall, if taking Bul failed then we'll
be able to cut ALL turkish support so Rum and Smy
would be ours. If taking Bul suceeded (since F Con
bounced us in Aeg) we force Aeg from East and
perhaps pass Gre to Italy since Turkey would fall
next year anway.
Comments?
Adam........
From - Sun Sep 23 15:44:48 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
I just did a bit of analysis and sent this to Keith:
>Yeah, that looks like the best moves to me:
>F Ion - Eas; F Nap - Ion; F Gre - Aeg; A Rum S A Ser - Bul
>
>Then, in the fall, if taking Bul failed then we'll
>be able to cut ALL turkish support so Rum and Smy
>would be ours. If taking Bul suceeded (since F Con
>bounced us in Aeg) we force Aeg from East and
>perhaps pass Gre to Italy since Turkey would fall
>next year anway.
>
>Comments?
Adam........
From - Sun Sep 23 15:44:51 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
[You might say that you don't believe me. I understand that.]
At this point, it doesn't really matter. I can believe you or not, but
either way I'm just left hoping that you're telling the truth.
[I am. Especially if we can make a EGI against F. Do you think you are the
one Germany is going to ally with or is it FG?]
Honestly, I think Germany is going to side with me. I can't give you any
guarantees, but Steve and I have been communicating very well throughout,
and I think he realizes that if he sides with Rod, he won't see much of the
gains.
Its good to hear that you will be on board. If you haven't already, I
suggest letting Germany know your plans. It should help him see that
joining me is the best thing for him, as well as making him feel a bit
better about the army in Tyrolia.
I look forward to working with you!
Brent
From - Sun Sep 23 15:44:52 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
[ It certainly will since the 2nd Russian Fleet is a clear expression
of his intent to eliminate me first.]
Fair enough, I'll start talking with Steve to see what can be done. I'll
let you know when I have more details on what is going to happen.
For what its worth, Raine has said that he is going to attack France this
season. I agree with you that right now its a bit hard to trust him, but in
the past he's never solidly committed to something and then gone back on it.
So your defense should probably concentrate on Russia and getting Austria on
your side (as it appears to be already).
Brent
From - Sun Sep 23 15:44:53 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
A couple more subjects that have come up recently that I wanted to discuss
with you. Raine has given me his solid commitment that he will be joining
the attack on France this season. This should help to achieve your goal of
quickly resolving the Western triangle (assuming of course that you're on my
side). It should also remove the pressure from Tyrolia and give you a bit
more flexibility there.
The other thing I wanted to discuss with you is Russia. Right now he
seems to be in the strongest position of anyone, and I am concerned that you
and/or I are next on his list once Turkey is gone. I also think that Eric
is our best choice for an ally in the East. Thus, I think it would be in
our best interest to push Russia back in the North and do what we can to
keep Eric alive. What do you think?
Brent
From - Sun Sep 23 15:44:54 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
A fleet build in Kiel? Doesn't look particually England
Friendly to me. Are you still sure you don't want any
pressure applied to Steve from the East?
Adam......
From - Sun Sep 23 18:54:03 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Master in 'gutsy':
(Note: The following is my perspective, and should not, necessarily,
be taken as gospel by anyone who might read this at a later date.)
Turkey faces a bigger challenge in 1901 than the other Powers
do. Turkey has fewer openings, and hence less flexibility, than any
other Power. Turkey also finds it difficult to avoid having its opening
interpreted as either pro-Russian, or anti-Russian. When this is
added to the (largely irrational) fear of the Juggernaut, and the fact
that Russia is Turkey's most, if not only, natural ally, the Turkish
player is in a true bind.
I established good relations with everyone, though France and
Austria were quieter than I expected them to be, given their JDPRs.
England, Russia and I were the most frequent correspondents, (I
think. Roger, could you sort the 1901 Press by topic, and Broadcast
a message count for each Power? It would be interesting to see.),
but England and I began discussing the possibility of an EIT Triple
alliance. IT is an alliance that can work, if Turkey builds Armies
instead of Fleets, and Italy agrees to DMZ Ion, and I have come to
favor allying with my neighbor's neighbor, since it reduces the
potential for a stab. Italy seemed interested, but was unwilling to
commit to an attack on France, or an immediate Ionian DMZ. We
discussed alternatives, and Italy insisted that I not ally with Russia,
though he never explained why he seemed to feel that a temporary
RT was an IT deal breaker. In retrospect, Italy's refusal to commit,
and his insistence that I attack Russia should have warned me that I
was being set up.
As Turkey, I prefer to open with the Turkish Hedgehog, (Con-Bul,
Ank-Con, Smy-Arm), but I could not get Russia to agree to DMZ
Bla, and Italy wanted a Russian attack before he'd commit to EIT, so
I went with the Crimean Crusher (Ank-Bla, Smy-Arm) as my default
orders, hoping to get Russia to change his mind about the bounce, but
moves processed early before I got a chance to run it by him again.
Given Italy's Lepanto opening, I immediately went to Russia, and
offered to pull back, painting my opening as having happened because
the turn processed earlier than I had expected. I told Italy that I
would pull back and block the Lepanto, hoping that he would go
forward with EI vs. F, but instead he invited Russia to join in ARI vs. T,
which Russia did.
For 1902, England claims he'll ask Germany to attack Russia, but
I'm much less sure that Germany will ally with England, than he seems
to be. I'm trying to swing Austria to my side, based on the fact that
he'll face an RI alliance once I'm gone, but I'm not sure that will work.
I built F Ank, hoping that I could destroy the Russian F Bla, and turn
him against Austria, but his build of F Sev makes that more difficult,
and less attractive. I am, at this point trying to decide between a
split-defense, (defending against everyone to try to hold on to my
Centers as long as possible), and a denial-defense, (defending against
only one Power, so that he gets no growth while his allies grow
bigger and bigger). Italy "deserves" a denial defense, but it would be
easier to do against Russia, and I suspect that I have more potential
to turn him away from his current course, especially if EG attack him
in the North. Additionally, there is the possibility that Italy will
finally
decide to attack France, though that seems unlikely.
Eric the Turkey. 8-)
From - Sun Sep 23 18:54:25 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Let's get back to business. I am going to move Tyr-Pie or -Ven. I think we
don't have to worry about juggernaut for awhile :-) So I am not needed in
Bohemia. Also there is no way I can make a way to Munich. So I will move
away from Tyrolia to make your life easier.
Russia told me that he is willing to support you to Bul. The support from
Black Sea is cut for sure so Rumania is the supporting unit.
We need to talk about the fleet movements. How about the following:
Austria
Gre-Bul(sc)
Ser s Gre-Bul(sc)
Russia
Rum s Gre-Bul(sc)
Italy
Ion-Aeg
Nap-Ion
The key is to destroy the Turkish army in Bulgaria. I would prefer to move
to Aeg. Aeg is next to two supplies and Eas is only next to Smy.
I am open to any suggestions you have. I am sure that if we go 3 on 1 we
will crush Turkey. If you insist I can turn to west immediately :-) I
think that Italy's worst opponent Turkey is strugging against you. But you
really need to insist, I want to be a piece of the action :-)
Raine
From - Sun Sep 23 18:54:28 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria and Russia in
'gutsy':
Dear Allies,
Things are looking good for us. Turkey should fall down quickly.
I was surprised to see the Turkish build. In a way he made things easier
for us.
I would like to suggest the following:
Austria
F Gre-Bul(sc)
A Ser S Gre-Bul(sc)
Italy
F Ion-Aeg
F Nap-Ion
A Tyr-Ven/Pie
Russia
A Rum s Gre-Bul(sc)
I hope we can destroy the army in Bulgaria. That would make our life
easier. BTW, to keep our alliance going I am ready to move west
immediately when you insist. I would like to be where the action is so
don't insist, yet ;-)
Raine
Ps. If you cannot make any sense from my talks it is 'cause of finnish
traditions. Do you know sauna? It is a room with fireplace and there are
stones above the fireplace (the thing is called 'kiuas'). Then people
throw water on the stones. Temperature is about 80 degrees. After the
sauna people wash theirselves and get a beer (so called saunabeer, not a
special beer but ordinary beer and it is called saunabeer 'cause one
drinks them after the sauna). So I have been enjoying this tradition and I
hope I am still making sense with my writings :-) I quess you cannot visit
Finland without getting to know sauna.
From - Mon Sep 24 16:49:44 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Sorry about my silence; I've been a little busy since Friday. I'll be here
for a bit tonight and much of tomorrow evening. Write a response when
you're able.
First, retaking London. The only *guaranteed* way I see would involve me
entering the North Sea after you take London with the fleet this spring.
That's the only way to take London and bounce France in Liverpool (after the
retreat). Rod is bound to support Brest into the channel this spring and
hope you and I aren't working together (or you attack with the army).
Now, you could move Norway into the North Sea and do the same thing, but
then you have to trust Russia just about the same amount. Given your talk
of attacking Adam in the north, it doesn't sound like that would really be
any better. And, too, I share your concern about an overly large Russia.
Regarding an attack on Russia, I'm a bit hesitant, but I'd like to talk a
little more and I don't think we should even consider it until fall. If
you're game, I'm willing to order Den - Nth and Kie - Den. If you have
Norway hold, I can support you in keeping London and you can support me into
Sweden. These are just ideas, mind you. There's no way I want Adam to
think we're even *considering* such an idea.
If you retake London, you can build in Liverpool, still have the army to
protect Edinburgh (or support London) and we're off to the races. I'd have
to do something creative with the North Sea to make you feel better, but we
can talk about that in another letter. (The channel comes to mind as we
both move south.)
Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Mon Sep 24 16:49:51 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
[The only *guaranteed* way I see would involve me
entering the North Sea after you take London with the fleet this spring.]
Yes, that is the only guarantee way. But I hope you'll understand when I
say I just can't let that happen. I've already made the mistake once of
underestimating the potential behind having a fleet next to the island, and
I've vowed never to do that again, even if the fleet is under firendly
control. And to be honest, I don't have any actions to prove that you are
on my side. From a pessimistic point of view, the bounce in Munich could've
been arranged as a way to get out of the support you were offering me, and
you yourself have said that you and Rod communicate very weel and that its
hard to decide who to ally with. Once you were in North Sea, it would be
far too tempting to just finish the job and get things over with quickly by
eliminating me. So, I can't allow a German fleet to enter North Sea, even
if it means I'm going to suffer because of it.
There are alternatives though, even if they aren't quite as guaranteed. I
could support the fleet into London, while Norway and Denmark stay put.
Assuming France moves as predicted, he'd have a 50/50 chance of maintaining
control of one of my home centers. In the fall, you could support me from
Norway to Sweden. This would guarantee that no matter what happens, I get a
build, and possibly two. That should be more than enough to repel France
with both you and Italy attacking him, and allows me to stay in a viable
position. Another option would be for me to move Norway to North in the
spring and then get your support into Belgium in the Fall. But that
basically invites Russia into Norway so we end up not really gaining.
There are of course other possibilities too, but I'm interested to hear
what your ideas are now with the German fleet North Sea off the table. I'm
also curious to hear what your plans are for attacking France and/or Russia
this year. Even if we do say wait until the Fall, I'd like to have an idea
what you're thinking. And one last question? You've asked me who my pick
for an Eastern ally would be, so I'm interested in hearing your response.
Who would you pick, and why? Look forward to hearing from you,
Brent
From - Mon Sep 24 16:49:54 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
I'm pleased you find my press readable; thanks for telling me. I'm sorry I
didn't write yesterday, but we had guests for the weekend.
Here are my thoughts regarding your last couple of letters:
> I am not an expert in reading between the lines but I have the feeling
> that GR are more friends than neutral. Would you like to comment this?
Adam and I have worked pretty hard to establish a friendship. Luckily we
both believe that the best way to be friends is to leave each other alone.
He wants to resolve ART quickly; I want to resolve EFG quickly. It doesn't
make sense for either one of us to interfere with the other right now.
Regarding an attack on France, I like the suggestions you made. I will
definitely be taking Belgium (I'm not sure if it will be fall or spring) and
I will most likely attack Burgundy. I appreciate your willingness to let me
take Marseilles and your flexibility regarding which unit I move into
Burgundy. Thanks for both.
To be fair though, when GI work together I see Marseilles as an Italian
center. As soon as I can position my armies to take Paris, I will let you
have Marseilles. Depending on how long that takes, I might still be in
Marseilles when you try for Spain. If so, I could support you in.
I hope we aren't thinking too far out in the future, but I wanted to let you
know some of the possibilities I'm considering.
Also, I want to let you know that I'm still working on my negotiations with
England and France. That's why I said "I will most likely attack Burgundy".
There are still a couple of things I need to figure out. I hope that's okay
with you.
I'll write more tomorrow when I hear more, but in the meantime please write.
As always, I enjoy your letters.
- Steve
P.S. I think your assessment of ART is accurate. If you do indeed move on
France, your press to Austria will directly effect how ART resolves. What
are you saying to him and is there anything you think I should say?
From - Mon Sep 24 16:49:57 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Okay, the North Sea is off the table. I understand how difficult that would
be for you and how tempting that would be for me. I also understand that
you'd rather go for the 50/50 regarding Liverpool and London. Makes sense
to me; I'd probably have written the same press you just wrote.
What's next...I'll point out one problem and one possibility. Here they
are:
The problem is that I cannot yet commit to an attack on Adam. Given your
weakness and both of our exposed backsides, there are many arguments as to
why that is a bad idea. I need a significant incentive before I stab
Russia. That's why I proposed me being in the North Sea; it seemed to
balance our needs reasonably well.
The possibility is that you retake London from the North Sea and we order
Norway and Denmark to bounce. Of all the spring options, this seems like
the best. You'd definitely go through with it because you don't want to
lose the North Sea; I'd definitely go through with it because Rod wants me
to. Win-win. We could discuss Sweden in the fall.
You raised a couple of other issues we really should discuss: Italy's
supposed attack on France and a partner in the east.
You should know that Raine and I got off to a bad start; not enough early
contact and the time-zone difference meant we didn't have many meaningful
exchanges before the fall moves. We've written a few times since then (me a
lot!), but there are still issues to work out. He, too, has indicated he
might attack France, but I'm not sure what to make of it. I really need to
know what you and he have talked about. Can you help me out here?
The other issue is an eastern partner. My choice, hands down is Eric. Adam
and I have a good relationship, but I don't think I've ever seen an EGR (who
get's what and why is G still alive?). T on the other hand can be an
excellent complement to any western pair.
Write when you can Brent. I'd like to confirm the North Sea bounce at the
least.
- Steve
From - Mon Sep 24 16:49:59 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> I don't think there's going to be a guarentee that
> Italy takes a Turkish center, Syr will no doubt be
> in Smy come the fall which would mean an attack on
> Smy would need to be supported. That could only be
> done from Eas and Aeg. While it is possible to take
> Eas in the spring, we can't guarentee Aeg at the same
> time.
Yes, perhaps you're right. I'll see what Italy wants to do. It might
not be until next year when we get anything.
> Yeah, that looks like the best moves to me:
> F Ion - Eas; F Nap - Ion; F Gre - Aeg; A Rum S A Ser - Bul
I agree.
> Then, in the fall, if taking Bul failed then we'll
> be able to cut ALL turkish support so Rum and Smy
> would be ours. If taking Bul suceeded (since F Con
> bounced us in Aeg) we force Aeg from East and
> perhaps pass Gre to Italy since Turkey would fall
> next year anway.
This looks good.
> Comments?
Turkey looks dead. I am starting to think about what happens after
Turkey is gone. Italy says he is ready to go west now. Are you looking
towards Germany? Would you want me to move north? Turkey can be taken
using only a few units each.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:01 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Let's get back to business. I am going to move Tyr-Pie or -Ven. I think we
> don't have to worry about juggernaut for awhile :-) So I am not needed in
> Bohemia. Also there is no way I can make a way to Munich. So I will move
> away from Tyrolia to make your life easier.
Okay, great. I was going to ask you about that.
> Russia told me that he is willing to support you to Bul. The support from
> Black Sea is cut for sure so Rumania is the supporting unit.
Yes, I think so.
> We need to talk about the fleet movements. How about the following:
[...]
> The key is to destroy the Turkish army in Bulgaria. I would prefer to move
> to Aeg. Aeg is next to two supplies and Eas is only next to Smy.
Russia has suggested Gre-Aeg, Ion-Eas, Ser-Bul. We need to be in both Aeg
and Eas, or Turkey can hold out. The best way to do this is for you to
move to Eas. If you are in Aeg, he can support Con with Smy and Ank, and
there's nothing we can do about it. If you try for Aeg and fail, then
we've wasted a turn. Going to Eas means you can support either yourself
or my fleet in Greece to Aeg in the Fall.
However, saying all this, it is your call. If you are going to move
against France soon, you will need another build. The way I see it, if
you invest too many of your units in the East, it will take you a long
time to turn around. It would be good to get my fleet East out of our
hair too, so Bul is probably a good place for this.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:03 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
> I hope we can destroy the army in Bulgaria. That would make our life
> easier. BTW, to keep our alliance going I am ready to move west
> immediately when you insist. I would like to be where the action is so
> don't insist, yet ;-)
Well, I was just mentiong this to Russia. I just want to be sure that we
all expand in directions away from each other (i.e. so you and Russia
don't crush me between you), so we should consider our troop placement to
acheive a non-threatening situation for all of us.
It is my opinion that we ought to use minimal Italian units in the East.
If I move my F Gre-Aeg and Italy moves Ion-Eas (which may need to support
Gre-Aeg in the Fall), then we will have Turkey completely surrounded, and
he will die next year, quite literally, with no more committment of
troops from any of us.
Another plan would be for me to simply support Ser-Bul with Greece and
move Gre-Aeg in the Fall with support from Italy. This would avoid any
tricks from Turkey where he doesn't bounce Con-Aeg and then retreats Bul-Gre.
I don't have any strong opinions about any of this, so I think we should
all air our concerns openly so that we can deal with them.
> Ps. If you cannot make any sense from my talks it is 'cause of finnish
> traditions. Do you know sauna? It is a room with fireplace and there are
> stones above the fireplace (the thing is called 'kiuas'). Then people
> throw water on the stones. Temperature is about 80 degrees. After the
> sauna people wash theirselves and get a beer (so called saunabeer, not a
> special beer but ordinary beer and it is called saunabeer 'cause one
> drinks them after the sauna). So I have been enjoying this tradition and I
> hope I am still making sense with my writings :-) I quess you cannot visit
> Finland without getting to know sauna.
I've been in a sauna. We stayed in there until we couldn't stand it
anymore, and then we ran out and doused ourselves with freezing cold
water. Repeat. I don't know that I want to do it again.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:15 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> Why did you not bounce Russia from Sweden? If England is not a factor
> in Scandinavia for much longer, why would you want to increase Russia's
> power in the North?
Two reasons: First, I didn't think for a second you and Eric would let him
have Rumania. Eric's spring moves were very anti-Russian and you yourself
told me Italy was moving away.
Secondly, no one asked me to, plain and simple. I even raised the subject
with every(!) player on the board. Your letter back was the closest thing
to a nibble.
> I don't recall having given you any tips. I didn't know myself what
> Italy was going to do. I wanted him out of Tyrolia, but he is still
> there.
Raine said he wasn't going to Piedmont, didn't want to return to Venice, and
didn't feel right about Bohemia. You said he was moving but not against
you; I took that as a tip. Sorry if I misread your press.
> I can't read Italy and Russia very well. They seem friendly for now, but
> I think they can become dangerous quickly if the both do well. I am right
> between them, as you know. Sooner or later I will be viewed as a threat
> or obstacle.
Thanks for the info. Are you still communicating poorly with Turkey? If
so, you might be in a poor position. Let me know if there's any way I can
help.
Please write if you learn anything about the Tyrolian unit. I'll do the
same.
- Steve
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:19 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
The North Sea bounce sounds like a good idea to me. Norway doesn't really
have a whole lot else to do, and it should keep our possibilities for taking
a Russian center open.
Not commiting to an attack on Russia this turn is fine with me, though it
does beg the question of where is that fleet in Kiel headed? The reason I
proposed it as it Eric's request. He doesn't seem to think he has Keith's
support, which means he needs Russia to be distracted if he's going to
survive. I need a center, he needs Russia to lose a center. Sounds like
the perfect setup... Anyways, while I've also gotten along fine with Adam
so far, the fact is that unless Eric convinces Keith to join him, he's going
to need our help fast if he is to survive to be our partner.
More important to me than commiting to an attack on Russia is your
commiting to an attack on France. Is that in the cards for this spring?
This is a tricky thing, because its in your best interest to keep your
options open as long as possible, while its in my best interest to have you
attacking France as soon as possible. I'm not sure how to reconcile that
difference, other than to say that my interests are more important. ;-)
Raine and I have been communicating pretty steadily throughout. My
impression is that he came in knowing how he wanted to open, and then went
about convincing others that that was what they wanted. Now that we're into
1902, he has to start playing the board and not his predefined opening. He
claims the attack on Munich was for my benefit, to which I replied that it
cost me my support and was not appreciated. In his defense though, we never
really did talk about what Tyrolia should do, and while I was talking about
being friendly with you, most of the board thinks you're my enemy so it
wouldn't have been an outrageous leap for him to make. As I think I said
before, he has always seemed to avoid subjects that he didn't want to tell
the truth about, and has never told me a direct lie. So when he said flat
out that he's going to attack France, I have to believe that he will.
One last tough subject. You indicated that Rod has requested you move
Den - Nth. Has he given you any firm indication of what his moves will be?
That kind of information might help us in planning the coming attack.
Brent
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:21 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Steve is hesitant to attack Russia, but we both agree that you are our
favorite Eastern country and that something needs to be done to keep you
alive. I'm afraid that we can't pick up both centers, as that would require
me to take St. Pete in the Spring and have another unit cover Norway, and
I've unfortunately got to defend my homeland. But I think one center is a
very good chance right now. That should help stall things as Russia is
forced to react to the North, and you can work on getting Keith to change
sides (assuming you haven't already done that). Hang in there!
Brent
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:22 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
The way I look at it, if Germany isn't on my side, I'm done for. But if
there's still a chance that he will side with me, I don't want him to decide
that he can't because he's being attacked from another direction. He
already gotten to use that excuse with Italy in Tyrolia and I don't want him
to be able to do so again. Lets see how the Spring goes, and then we can
decide whether a stab is necessary or not. There's really no point in you
trying to start something in the Speing anyways, right? I appreciate the
offer though, and believe me, if I find that Germany isn't on my side, I
will most gladly take you up on it!
Brent
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:23 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Austria in 'gutsy':
[I don't think that was arranged. Italy did not tell me about it, and
Germany had asked me what I thought Italy might do.]
Thanks, that information helps a lot.
[Whatever did France tell you to fool you?]
Well, going into Fall 1901 I had promises of support into Belgium from
both France and Germany. I didn't believe France would offer it, but I
believed Germany would. I also didn't think Rod would be so bold as to
attack me right off the bat and lock himself in with an ally that hasn't
been forced to show his allegiance. It was quite the risky maneuver by him,
and I'm still hoping it will end up backfiring!
[With France attacking you, Germany letting him have Sweden, and gaining the
Black Sea, he is sitting
pretty.]
Agreed, and you can bet that doesn't make me very happy either. While I
was able to avoid the build of a North Coast fleet this turn, its only a
matter of time before it appears, unless something is done. Unfortunately I
do not currently have the capacity to participate in any attack, but I think
you would have the gratitude of many nations if you were to join Eric in
fighting off Russia. That last thing anyone wants is for Adam to be sitting
on 10 while the rest of us are at 6 or less.
Brent
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:26 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
We had guests this weekend so my dip has been severely limited; I hope
that's not a problem. I'll be here for a bit, so please write if you're
online.
Here are my thoughts:
Sealion as outlined in the DipPouch is no longer possible, but there's a lot
more we can do. First off, congratulations on London; excellent snag. I
really mean that, but I'm a bit jealous that you drew first blood. :)
As for the spring moves, I will attack the North Sea from Denmark. That
means the only way England can take London is from Nth. I'm not sure if
you'll adjust your orders any, but I'd thought I'd let you know.
If I get in, you will have a 50/50 shot at keeping London or taking
Liverpool *and* I'll have a walk-in to Edinburgh. Either way, we should
discuss who gets the third center. If I get Belgium, you can have Liverpool
and London, but we then have to discuss the army/fleet distribution across
the north (and a whole bunch of other things).
If I don't get in, it means you keep London. Pretty good for you, right?
Just so you know, I'm concerned about two other major issues:
1) Where should I move F Kiel? Given what I just said, what would you do?
2) Remember that big grand scheme of yours? The only "what's next" that I
can think of is a joint attack on Italy (or a German attack on Russia). I
have concerns about both.
Write when you get back.
- Steve
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:28 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Thanks for your last letter. I imagine your hands are full in the south so
I won't complicate things with my issues in the west.
Bottom line, I appreciate the way we're talking, Sweden is safe, and I don't
want to see any Russian units in Silesia or Prussia. That's still fair,
right?
We had guests this weekend so I've been pretty busy and I'm about to call it
a night. Good luck with whatever you're trying to do in the east. I've
heard a ton of rumors, but I think I'd rather not know. :)
Write if you've heard anything affecting me and I'll do the same. Good luck
with your negotiations.
- Steve
P.S. I'll probably write more tomorrow, but I'm too tired now to form an
intelligent letter. Sorry about that.
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:35 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
>Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> Steve is hesitant to attack Russia,
Not surprising, really.
>we can't pick up both centers, as that would require
>me to take St. Pete in the Spring and have another unit cover Norway,
Umm, I expect that A Mos will head South in the
Spring, so, Nwy S Den-Swe, followed by Nwy-Stp/NC in
the Fall stands a good chance of working, depending
on where RF Swe retreats too. I'm not insisting on
this by any means, just offering it as a possibility.
>you can work on getting Keith to change sides
That work has already started. You might want
to write to Keith and Adam (separately), and mention
how fundamentally Raine's moves have differed from
his negotiations.
Thanks for your efforts on my behalf,
Eric.
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:37 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria and Italy in 'gutsy':
> Well, I was just mentiong this to Russia. I just want to be sure that we
> all expand in directions away from each other (i.e. so you and Russia
> don't crush me between you), so we should consider our troop placement to
> acheive a non-threatening situation for all of us.
I'll probably move on Germany this year. England is still asking
me not too, even after that fleet build but I think he's hoping
for help that will never come. I guess Austrian help up there
wouldn't go too far amis, hey, maybe even A Tyr would be
useful.
> It is my opinion that we ought to use minimal Italian units in the East.
> If I move my F Gre-Aeg and Italy moves Ion-Eas (which may need to support
> Gre-Aeg in the Fall), then we will have Turkey completely surrounded, and
> he will die next year, quite literally, with no more committment of
> troops from any of us.
I think those moves are the best for reasons I've explained
to each of you seperately. If Turkey bounces Gre - Aeg then
we get to take Bul in the fall, if he doesn't then
we get Bul AND Smy in the fall this year. It looks like
the fastest attack to me and my main concern is that
we get Turkey finished and move westwards before Germany
and France have wiped out England and turned themselves
to the East.
(Sorry that i have to be brief, works getting out of hand
for a few days again since I'll be taking a long weekend
from this Thursday, which reminds me, must write to the
master about that)
Adam.............
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:40 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Turkey looks dead. I am starting to think about what happens after
> Turkey is gone. Italy says he is ready to go west now. Are you looking
> towards Germany? Would you want me to move north? Turkey can be taken
> using only a few units each.
Yeah, it's surprising how quickly we could get down to just
the three of us if we keep our cooperation going well. I think
it's probably worth us sending one or two units into Germany
each this year, I'm not entirely sure whether that would
be best done this spring or this fall.
I guess if we move quickly, IE in the spring, we should
be able to take a center off of Germany in the fall. Berlin
will probably be fairly easy since Kie will probably
move out to Den or Hol/Hel this spring.
Spring:
War - Sil, Vie - Boh, Mos - War, Tri - Tyr (or Tyr hold)
Fall:
We have three armies between us on Munich, one on Berlin
(which COULD be enough) and backup on the way. If you're
taking Bul this year then I'd sooner be the one of us to
make the first gain in Germany. If Berlin is open then
obviously you can take Munich but if Berlin is covered
(An army in Kie is the only likely looking way to do
that, personally I think Ber will be vunerable) then
Munich is yours (though I'd sooner you trade Gre to
Italy in the fall if you intend to take it.
That could leave us with one unit growth each this year,
We take Munich, Bul and either Berlin (if no A Kie) and/or
Smy (If no bounce in Aeg).
It'll probably annoy England, if Germany did look like he
was on the way to rescue and definately Germany but should
make the Western battle into just France Vs England at
least anyway.
Do you think we should try that, or leave it for a season
to see what happens?
Adam.........
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:46 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Thanks for your last letter. I imagine your hands are full in the south so
> I won't complicate things with my issues in the west.
Ah, but I like to hear things going on in strange parts
of the continent. Are the French sailors enjoying their
trip to London? What can the newly qualified seamen
in Kie be planning?
> Bottom line, I appreciate the way we're talking, Sweden is safe, and I don't
> want to see any Russian units in Silesia or Prussia. That's still fair,
> right?
For now it's fair I guess. I'm not too happy with the fleet
build and could get uncomfortable if that (Or F Den) goes
to Bal or ends up threatening Norway. Assuming you're going
after England, is there much chance I could take Nwy as
a consolation prize for you smashing him all up before
I got around to finishing off the south here?
> We had guests this weekend so I've been pretty busy and I'm about to call it
> a night. Good luck with whatever you're trying to do in the east. I've
> heard a ton of rumors, but I think I'd rather not know. :)
A ton? Sounds like there's more rumours than there is actual
press going back and fourth. I think we've all been pretty
quiet during the weekend actually.
> Write if you've heard anything affecting me and I'll do the same. Good luck
> with your negotiations.
Not a great deal. England is still convinced you're on his
side even after your builds and France hasn't written at
all in a while. I think some people are trying to get
Italy to head West quite soon, probably next year or
something, but I'm not so sure that he actually will.
Adam.......
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:47 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> I have yet to be eliminated in a game
> by anything other than a solo
I guess that's supposed to scare us. He failed to mention that he's
played only 4 games PBEM so far. ;-)
> I have pledges of support from two Eastern countries so far who have
> said that they will send units West in my defense.
Sounds like a bluff. What I've heard from the east is that no one is
sure who's allied with whom. The R/T builds clear things up a bit,
but I doubt anyone has spurious units to send after us.
> Thanks for the note and thanks for the offer of Belgium. Since I
> probably won't get another center this year, I'll take it. Thanks.
My pleasure. :-)
> Regarding London, I don't see anyway Brent can retake it without
> losing the North Sea or Liverpool.
You're right - but maybe he's willing to trade Nth in exchange for a
build. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I have visions of him bouncing
me out of Eng then taking Lon in the Fall and building F Lvp. I guess
we'll just have to out-smart him. :-)
> I'm a bit jealous that you drew first blood. :)
Yeah, it's nice, but it's more of a little prick than a fatal blow.
We still have quite a bit of work to do, but I'm certain that we will
eventually be successful. It's only a matter of time.
> As for the spring moves, I will attack the North Sea from Denmark.
Good. I think that will help quite a bit.
> That means the only way England can take London is from Nth.
And if he does, at least you bounce Nwy-Nth.
> Either way, we should discuss who gets the third center. If I get
> Belgium, you can have Liverpool and London, but we then have to
> discuss the army/fleet distribution across the north (and a whole
> bunch of other things).
We need to maintain balanced growth and make sure we don't butt heads.
One possibility is that I relocate to Lvp while you take Lon and Edi,
in which case you would transfer Bel to me. We'll just have to see
how things go and plan accordingly.
> Where should I move F Kiel? Given what I just said, what would you do?
I would move to Hel.
> The only "what's next" that I can think of is a joint attack on
> Italy (or a German attack on Russia). I have concerns about both.
What are your concerns? It's hard to make detailed long-term plans
before we see what happens, but if there are specific issues that
need to be addressed, let's take care of them as soon as possible.
Rod
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:49 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> a build there could
> stop him doing what he said he'd do - move Nwy back to defend
> his homeland.
It's no problem for *us* if he can't defend the homeland. ;-)
> It's possible I'll move A Mos to StP in the
> spring and then take Nwy in the fall, but I wouldn't put
> too much cash on it. I'm afraid.
If you have other priorities, that's fine, but Nwy is essentially
a free center. You can force it, and Brent does not have the
wherewithal to retaliate.
Rod
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:50 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> So I propose that you build your headquarters to Ruhr!
Sounds good! :-)
> Ps. Are you interested in European films?
I like films, but I don't often get the chance to see European films.
Of course, everyone has seen "Life Is Beautiful" (Italian). I think
I also saw a Czech movie once, and maybe a French film and a Spanish
film, but I don't remember exactly what they were.
> The most famous directors from Finland are Mika and Aki Kaurismäki.
I don't think I've ever seen a Finnish film.
> One of them made a film called Kalmari Union.
If I come across it at the video rental store I'll get it, but I
suspect they probably don't have it. :-(
I do have some CDs of music by Jean Sibelius, so I'm not totally
bereft of Finnish art. :-)
> I am sure your life would have been miserable without that piece of
> info
I knew there was something missing! I am now complete. ;-)
Rod
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:52 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> An experienced player like you knows that the short term gain of
> London is meaningless if you don't have a strong ally to back you up.
I have little experience with France. This is my first PBEM game as
France. I am realizing that Lon might be a little difficult for me to
keep.
> Being up or down a center in Spring 1901
> is inconsequential compared to the long term alliance structure.
I think that's generally true, though early growth is important as
well. I do appreciate the value of a long-term alliance, but in
highly-rated games I tend to be a little more paranoid/cutthroat and
focused on getting an immediate edge. Perhaps that's something I need
to change.
> If you were to suddenly be attacked by Germany and Italy, there
> would suddenly be very possible benefits to joining with me.
Yes, it's safe to say that I wouldn't want three enemies
simultaneously. :-)
> my only real way of trying to negotiate a peace with you is by
> trying to get others to attack you.
Of course. And I'll try to prevent that. It will be interesting to
see how it all works out.
Good luck!
Rod
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:54 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> I think the builds will be telling.
Yes - it looks like R/T are committed to butting heads in Bla. Good
for you, eh? :-)
Rod
From - Mon Sep 24 16:50:55 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> Yes - it looks like R/T are committed to butting heads in Bla. Good
> for you, eh? :-)
Yes, it is hard to see Russia's build as anything but good for Austria.
How are your relations with Italy?
Austria
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:00 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
Brent is telling me that he will try to convince you and Italy to
attack me. (I suppose he's using similar scare tactics with you as
well.) I very much doubt that he will be successful. However, I've
found that paranoia can trick me into doing irrational things, so I
prefer to not let myself get paranoid. If you don't mind, I might
order Pic and Par to bounce each other in Bur. I have nothing else
to do with those units anyway, and it gives you the option of doing
Mun-Bur if you think that will mess with England's head.
Let me know what you think of this.
Rod
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:01 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
Austria has told me that Turkey is soliciting him for assistance
against Russia. However, since the Russian presence in the Black
Sea gives you a good opportunity for Lepanto, it might be better
to convince Austria to help you attack Turkey. Do you have good
relations with Austria?
Rod
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:03 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> How are your relations with Italy?
Friendly (as far as I know). How are yours?
Rod
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:04 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
I want to continue the honest way I have chosen. The bounce in Munich was
made in agreement with Steve. I have been trying to arrange GI attack
against France. I am afraid there is a FG against England. I offered a
very good plan to Steve but he is not interested. I understand that you
have tried to talk E & G to be frieds. How do you feel west is going to
end up?
Raine
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:06 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
People tell me things I don't want to hear :-( Some people think that FG
is forming. That puts me into difficult position. I have even considered a
full force attack against France but there really is no point if you are
not with me. I can hit my head to a wall for a long time with no results
(but headache). So, I hope the rumours turn out to be untrue.
> Adam and I have worked pretty hard to establish a friendship. Luckily we
> both believe that the best way to be friends is to leave each other alone.
> He wants to resolve ART quickly; I want to resolve EFG quickly. It doesn't
> make sense for either one of us to interfere with the other right now.
At the moment the quickest way to resolve west is FG :-( I can tell you
that you are not in a hurry. East is not going to resolve quickly. Eric is
making a huge effort to not be the odd one out. No need to tell you that
Eric is a good player.
> Regarding an attack on France, I like the suggestions you made. I will
> definitely be taking Belgium (I'm not sure if it will be fall or spring) and
> I will most likely attack Burgundy. I appreciate your willingness to let me
> take Marseilles and your flexibility regarding which unit I move into
> Burgundy. Thanks for both.
My hope is that you concentrate on Belgium in fall. Please, attack Bur
with support in spring. From above I get the feeling of supported attack
to Bel and only a unsupported move to Bur. That would be a huge
disapointement to me. I am only selfish when I offer Mar to you. 1st I
offer it only temporary and 2nd it means weaker France and it would be
good for me.
> To be fair though, when GI work together I see Marseilles as an Italian
> center. As soon as I can position my armies to take Paris, I will let you
> have Marseilles. Depending on how long that takes, I might still be in
> Marseilles when you try for Spain. If so, I could support you in.
Yes, Marseilles would be your for a year or two but in the end I would get
it.
> Also, I want to let you know that I'm still working on my negotiations with
> England and France. That's why I said "I will most likely attack Burgundy".
> There are still a couple of things I need to figure out. I hope that's okay
> with you.
It is ok. Too bad that only other solution is ok. I would feel like a
child without presents at cristmas if you ally with France and forget the
generous offer I made.
> P.S. I think your assessment of ART is accurate. If you do indeed move on
> France, your press to Austria will directly effect how ART resolves. What
> are you saying to him and is there anything you think I should say?
I am telling him the truth. I told him that I am not moving against you or
to Bohemia. Boh is not needed as RT seems unlikely at the moment. Also I
told him that I will move away from Tyr. This time I'll make it for sure.
It leaves Ven or Pie to move to. You could tell him that I am considering
to attack France. Austria must be concerned about fast fall of Turkey and
then being between Italy and Russia. I am sure this is the key point Eric
is using to get Keith with his side. Also, I don't want to attack Austria
untill it is unavoidable.
Two questions:
Do you think Eric has made any progress to get Keith on his side?
Could you clarify your intensions in west? (this is essential for me! You
know what I want to hear :-)
Raine
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:08 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
Well, another year begins. Who told you that
Raine was ordering Tyl-Mun last Fall? I certainly
didn't expect a bounce in Mun. Brent tells me he's
offering to support Den-Swe, and I hope that you'll
take him up on the offer. I think Adam made a
mistake building F Sev, since it ties him into
attacking me, and makes it more difficult to adjust
to an attack from the North, or a shift in alliance
structure.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:10 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
At the moment I have the feeling that Steve wants to resolve west
quickly. That is bad for you. I have already talked to him that there is
no hurry. I have talked to him about GI co-operation against F but I
haven't got a clear answer, yet.
I have been thinking about putting all my units against France but I need
to get a support from Steve. I know I would get your support. I really
would love to show Eric that I am serious about TIE. At the moment I
cannot tell you what I am going to do. There is still a possibility that I
move east also.
Raine
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:11 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
Well, another year begins. Who told you that
Raine was ordering Tyl-Mun last Fall? I certainly
didn't expect a bounce in Mun. Brent tells me he's
offering to support Den-Swe, and I hope that you'll
take him up on the offer. I think Adam made a
mistake building F Sev, since it ties him into
attacking me, and makes it more difficult to adjust
to an attack from the North, or a shift in alliance
structure. What are you hearing from Keith and
Raine? I'm trying to figure out how to mount my
defense.
Eric the Turkey. 8-)
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:13 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
What are you hearing from Keith and Raine?
I'm trying to figure out how to mount my defense.
I'm still not sure which way Steve is going to go
in the EF conflict. I'm not sure that A Par is
going to be more useful against England than F Mar
would have been, but I suppose there was no reason
for you to panic Raine.
Eric the Turkey. 8-)
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:14 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria and Russia in
'gutsy':
Dear Allies,
I am sorry that I have no time to talk privately to you. I have the guts
to play this game but my time is limited :-(
I agree the moves in Med.
Ion-Eas
Gre-Aeg
Keith are you willing to let me to Greece if you get Bulgaria?
I am talking to west and trying to make everything ready to turn my ships
there. Just tell me know the timing and I head there.
Eric is silent to me. It means that he is talking a lot to you. My guess
is that Eric tries to get Keith on his side. The argument is most probably
something like 'IR will crush you when I'm gone'. Keith feel free to
dictate my moves so that you'll feel more comfortable. Proxies are not
allowed but Tyrolia will move like you wish (not to Boh :-).
To be honest I am afraid of Eric's skills. I hope you can arrange things
in Galicia. I have no idea what you are up to there but 'peace man'. We
have a wonderful chance to get rid of Eric.
Yours,
Raine
PS. I am able to read my mails before the deadline (not sure if I have
time to write). Send me a notes where you dictate my moves :-) As a
default I consider Ion-Eas, Nap-Ion, Tyr-Ven/Pie.
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:16 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Nice build. I guess you're more upset with me than you
are with Italy then. Oh well, I guess I might have to
live without a build this year. I wonder if A Syr
will move to Arm or Smy?
Adam..........
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:18 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
Russia and I have been considering our options. Looking at the map, it
seems to me that we can deal with Turkey using only a few units from each
of us.
Italy moves Ion-Eas
Austria moves Ser-Bul, Gre-Aeg
Russia orders Rum S Ser-Bul, Bla S Ser-Bul, Sev S Bla
(In the Fall, Italy orders Eas S Gre-Aeg if it fails. Our units in Bla,
Bul, Aeg and Eas will be sufficient to eliminate Turkey quickly--he will
lose two if not all three centers in 1903.)
Then, we each have a number of free units to use against the others.
Should we try a blitz?
Consider this:
Austria moves Tri-Tyr, Vie-Boh
Russia moves War-Sil
Italy orders Nap-Tys, Ven-Pie
France is in a tough spot with England against him, and Germany will be
hard pressed to defend against this assault from Russia and I. England
is weak and therefore will be a good partner. We could temporarily have
an AEIR alliance, though I would presume that Russia and Italy would be
able to get their fleets in position against England sometime in the
not-so-distant future.
How does this sound? Is this too radical? We can play it safe, but we
might lose momentum. I have a number of armies that will go unused,
otherwise.
Let me know what you think.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:20 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy and Austria in 'gutsy':
> Eric is silent to me. It means that he is talking a lot to you.
He may be talking a lot to Keith, but he's said nothing to me
since just after the fall movement phase. Usually if somone's
quiet to one person he's quiet with all but we'll see I
guess. Keith? He talking to you much?
> To be honest I am afraid of Eric's skills.
I don't think he's much, if at all, better than the
rest of us is he? We'll find out soon I guess.
> PS. I am able to read my mails before the deadline (not sure if I have
> time to write). Send me a notes where you dictate my moves :-) As a
> default I consider Ion-Eas, Nap-Ion, Tyr-Ven/Pie.
We still have more than 30 hours don't we?
Adam..........
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:21 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi, you asked if I am willing to exchange Greece for Bulgaria. Yes I am,
and if you insist upon this, I will let you have Greece.
I was thinking about alternatives. First, let me be frank and air my
concerns. It is true that you and Russia are getting along well, and I
am somewhat concerned that you and he could crush me between you once
Turkey is declawed. If you and Russia were going to do this, I would
imagine you would try to convoy your army from Tunis to Greece or perhaps
Albania.
If not, having your fleets in Greece and Eas kind of keeps them out of
the action for some time. If you move to Greece, the fleet that you
build can start moving west the next year. But, you could start moving
west now, and you would get further ahead. It just seems to me that
your taking Greece does not buy you anything, because you will have an
extra fleet behind, out of the action.
You are guaranteed at least one build after 1903, and I think we can make
a case with Russia, especially if we are able to get something from
Germany, that you should get Con as well for another build in 1904. This
should give you all of the naval power you will need against France.
Perhaps you won't even need that since you will hopefully get England on
your side.
In short, I think there are better options than your taking Greece. If
you do insist upon taking Greece, this is okay. It is not my preference,
but I am willing to yield to other opinions in my alliances. I would
only ask that you move Tunis-Naf in the Spring so that I would not have
to be worried about any chance of your convoying against Austria in the Fall.
Does this sound fair? I do not want to suggest that you had any future
ill-intentioned plans against Austria, but my paranoid-meter mandates that
I consider all these things. Once Turkey is gone, we have to look for
other places to attack (France and Germany), and if we don't get started
on these right away, I'm afraid one of us might find it too tempting to
attack one of our closer neighbors instead.
What do you think?
Austria
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:26 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
> He may be talking a lot to Keith, but he's said nothing to me
> since just after the fall movement phase. Usually if somone's
> quiet to one person he's quiet with all but we'll see I
> guess. Keith? He talking to you much?
No, only a few messages uring me to attack either Italy or Russia. I
have also been getting suggestions along these lines from a number of
other countries (mainly worried about Russia).
> > To be honest I am afraid of Eric's skills.
>
> I don't think he's much, if at all, better than the
> rest of us is he? We'll find out soon I guess.
His units are made of the same stuff as ours are. If we send four units
against his three (I'm already assuming we're getting rid of Bul), he'll
fall in two years or less.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:28 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
>Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>Nice build.
Thanks. 8-) I wish I could say the same about
F Sev, but I think that was a mistake. It locks you
into attacking me, even if Austria, or England and
Germany decide to attack you.
>I guess you're more upset with me than you
>are with Italy then. Oh well, I guess I might have to live without a build
>this year. I wonder if A Syr will move to Arm or Smy?
Actually, I was hoping that you'd build two
Armies, or F StP, and I'd be able to destroy
RF Bla, and be able to propose the Juggernaut to
you again. Now that's more difficult. I still
haven't decided whether to split my defense, and
try to hold on until someone stabs, or defend
against one or two of you, and let one Power
take all my Centers in the hope that the other
two will be forced to stab to stay even.
Given the choice, I'd rather deny Italy a
build, but there is still a small chance that
he'll attack France this year, so I didn't want
to build F Smy and then watch him move west.
Eric the Turkey. 8-)
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:30 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> > How are your relations with Italy?
>
> Friendly (as far as I know). How are yours?
So far so good.
I am a bit worried about IR, so I was just wondering how long you thought
your arrangement with Italy would last.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:32 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
I think Italy will move his unit from Tyrolia. I have asked him too, and
I think he will agree. I don't know exactly where he will move it, but I
would guess Venice, or less likley Piedmont.
Turkey is communicating, although only a bit. I am considering taking
Bulgaria and hoping for the best otherwise.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:33 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
Could I interest you in A Bul S A Ser -> Rum?
With Russia building a second Fleet, he's not going
to be able to counterattack effectively, if you stab.
Italy tells me that Germany proposed the bounce in
Munich, and Raine agreed to it, which suggests that
Italy wanted, and wants, to remain in Tyrolia.
Would you care to share any intelligence information
with me?
Eric the Turkey. 8-)
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:35 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Could I interest you in A Bul S A Ser -> Rum?
> With Russia building a second Fleet, he's not going
> to be able to counterattack effectively, if you stab.
> Italy tells me that Germany proposed the bounce in
> Munich, and Raine agreed to it, which suggests that
> Italy wanted, and wants, to remain in Tyrolia.
> Would you care to share any intelligence information
> with me?
I'm afraid you'll pass on any information I send. I can tell you that
what Italy told you is false. Ask Germany. I'll consider your offer. I
am worried about IR forming against me, but I'm not sure about the best
steps to prevent it.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:37 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
[At the moment I have the feeling that Steve wants to resolve west
quickly. That is bad for you. ]
No its not. What could be faster than EGI vs. F? Steve and I have
discussed this for quite a while, and he agrees this is the best way to
go. As long as you attack France, there should be no question as to
which side Steve needs to be on to get a fast resolution.
[I have been thinking about putting all my units against France but I
need
to get a support from Steve. ]
This is the exact same type of situation as we were in last Fall. The
fact of the matter is that sometimes you just have to take a chance.
You have to have some level of trust that people are going to do what
they say they will, or you don't get anywhere. I have already
negotiated based on the assumption that when you told me flat out "I
will be attacking France" that you meant it. If you back out on me now,
I'm toast and you're next.
I don't know what else I can say. You're trying to rationalize my own
death with me. Either you move West and support the friendship we've
been trying to build, or you move East and destroy it.
Brent
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:41 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>I'm afraid you'll pass on any information I send.
Who would I tell? I'm facing the potential of
AIR vs. T here, and obviously, even Turkey's defensive
prowess can't withstand that sort of an attack.
I need to pull one of you to my side, in order to
survive, and given Italy's disingenuous negotiations
so far, and Russia's builds, you're clearly my best
hope. I'd have to be an idiot to betray your
confidences to me at this point.
Conversely, however, without some coordination
with you, and sharing information to establish trust
and facilitate effective planning, it's going to be
difficult to overcome the inherent geographic
challenges that AT faces, and it will be difficult
for me to trust you enough to work with you, if you
don't exhibit some trust for me. I need an alliance
with you at this point, so it's not in my best
interest to betray you.
>I can tell you that what Italy told you is false. Ask Germany.
I have asked Germany, but he hasn't responded,
yet. It does not surprise me that Italy is spreading
disinformation. That has been his pattern all along.
(Please keep this in mind as you negotiate with him. 8-)
>I am worried about IR forming against me, but I'm not sure about the best
>steps to prevent it.
I'd say you have two choices: 1) Ally with
Turkey, or 2) Work with Russia to keep Italy from
taking any Turkish Centers, and hope that you can
eliminate me before Italy stabs you. I'd say
option 1 is your best bet. ;^}
Eric the Turkey.
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:44 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> I am a bit worried about IR, so I was just wondering how long you
> thought your arrangement with Italy would last.
As long as he doesn't attack *me*, I won't complain. ;-) I haven't
heard any hints from either Italy or Russia that they plan to attack
you, but you never know.
Rod
From - Mon Sep 24 16:51:45 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
> What are you hearing from Keith and Raine?
> I'm trying to figure out how to mount my defense.
Keith reports that your press has been much more friendly toward him
since the last move, but he hasn't revealed which side he's on. He
did express some concern about a possible IR, so maybe he will help
you.
Raine seems friendly, but he avoids discussing specifics. I must
admit that I'd rather see him go after you than after me, but I don't
really know what his plans are - or whether he's allied with A or R.
Rod
From - Tue Sep 25 18:12:25 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
Not to be a pain, but I'm growing increasingly concerned by our sudden
lack of communication this turn. The paranoid in me says that this is
an indication that you're talking to someone else before talking to me.
Hopefully when I do hear from you you will have something to say to
reassure me!
A paranoid Brent
From - Tue Sep 25 18:12:28 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
> How do you feel west is going to end up?
Neither Steve, nor Rod have given any indication of an alliance. It
seems unlikely that Rod would open to Eng unless he was fairly sure
he could count on Steve, but I can see Steve going either way at this
point.
Eric the Turkey.
From - Tue Sep 25 18:12:30 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Regarding an attack on France, I know that is what you're really hoping for,
but don't count on it. Italy's still in my backyard and I want to see how
your 50/50 looks before I commit. Just like with Russia, I'm not going at
it alone. I want you strong enough to help out and I believe in only one
enemy at once.
Regarding at attack on Russia, I still have the same hesitations. If it
does happen, it probably won't be this fall. My goals for this year are to
see you retake London and for me to take Belgium. That's about all I can
reasonably hope for.
That said, there is no need for you to get paranoid at this point in the
game; there's plenty of time for that later. :)
Besides, you really don't have a bunch of choices here. Paranoia just loses
games. Slow down, take a breath and trust me a bit. I promise you you'll
be happy with the results.
- Steve
P.S. I have no idea what France is ordering. He's concerned about me in
Burgundy and he's concerned about losing London. He does believe he will be
able to take Liverpool as a backup, so he still expects to grow this year.
P.P.S It's good to hear Raine is off his game because of the Munich attack.
That makes my life easier.
From - Tue Sep 25 18:12:33 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I just noticed an almost finished email to you sitting in my draft box.
Evidently, I just forgot to send it; sorry about that. Sending it now would
be pointless though; so much has changed. I hope you don't think I was
being rude.
Regarding your last letter, here are a couple of thoughts:
The French sailors are very much enjoying their trip to London, but they
expect it to be a short one. They do hope, however, to pay a visit to
Liverpool on the return trip.
The newly qualified seamen in Kiel are not planning anything special. Their
orders are very simple: Keep a low profile and be prepared to protect the
Motherland. They have been cleared to patrol the Helgoland Bight, Holland
and Kiel but have strict orders not to enter the Baltic Sea.
Other points:
> A ton? Sounds like there's more rumours than there is actual
> press going back and fourth. I think we've all been pretty
> quiet during the weekend actually.
Yea, I guess that was an exagerration.
As far as the west was concerned, the only one talking *that* much has been
England. I have had decent exchanges with everyone else in both quantity
and quality, but Brent continues to amaze me. The quantity to quality ratio
is about 3:1. I'm probably being too harsh, but I received two nagging
"Where are you?" messages in a 15-hour period. Come up for air, Brent,
breathe a little. :)
> Not a great deal. England is still convinced you're on his
> side even after your builds and France hasn't written at
> all in a while. I think some people are trying to get
> Italy to head West quite soon, probably next year or
> something, but I'm not so sure that he actually will.
Those are all good to hear. Thanks for the info.
Now, regarding us. If I do eventually take the North Sea and it looks like
England is going down, you can have Norway, I have no problem with that at
all. My goal this year, however, is to take Belgium so I probably won't
strike quite yet. I figure I have one more year to watch EF butt heads
before I have to move.
The only other thing I want to say is: Don't let Keith get too big; a six
or seven center Austria is a real beast. My only Russian successes have
come from juggernauts so I can really advise you much on an AR, but that's
what I'm thinking.
Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Tue Sep 25 18:12:36 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
[Italy's still in my backyard and I want to see how your 50/50 looks before
I commit.]
Just remember that every turn you wait to decide is one turn longer it
takes to resolve the Western triangle.
[Besides, you really don't have a bunch of choices here. Paranoia just
loses
games. Slow down, take a breath and trust me a bit.]
Spoken like someone who can easily be at 6 centers with no enemies. But
true enough about the no choices apart. And not exactly the words I was
hoping to hear. Sounds like you basically plan to let France and I duke it
out and then pick off the winner at your leisure. Of course, Rod's little
outburst has given you that luxury so I guess I'll have to live with it. I
was just hoping that we could have an alliance based on mutual interest, and
so far I haven't seen my interests come into play. I do hope that I'll be
as happy as you say! Are we still on for the bounce in North Sea?
Brent
From - Tue Sep 25 18:12:38 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Speaking honestly, I'm afraid we might have gotten off track somewhere. My
bad.
As you said in one of your earlier letters (and I agree wholeheartedly),
"trust" doesn't matter, understanding does.
As I see it, to understand someone you must distinguish between that
person's "needs" and that person's "wants" and you must know exactly what
they both are. Right now, I think I understand yours and I think you
understand mine. The last few letters between us have made that clear.
What we must do next is discuss these openly. Just to be clear, my "needs"
are:
1) To ensure Italy realizes Munich is dead-end
2) To ensure Russia has no reason to attack me until I'm ready to defend
3) To take Belgium without losing another center
I think your needs are:
1) To retake London
2) To keep the North Sea in English hands or at least unoccupied
Also to be clear, we each have additional wants. I want to see you and Rod
fighting...and I want to see Rod take a hit. I also want to see one of EFG
(not me) fall as quickly as possible.
I think you want to see me commit, but definitely not against you. At the
least, you want me to have at least one enemy...and you'd like to pick up a
fifth center.
The moves I have planned right now definitely meet my needs and I think they
definitely meet yours. They also meet a fair share of both our wants.
Please write when you can, Brent, I look forward to hearing from you.
- Steve
P.S. Yes, I'm still ordering Den - Nth. It would be silly of me not to.
From - Tue Sep 25 18:12:40 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I guess I owe you for two notes. Thanks for both.
>> I have yet to be eliminated in a game
>> by anything other than a solo
>
> I guess that's supposed to scare us. He failed to mention that he's
> played only 4 games PBEM so far. ;-)
Yeah, I noticed that too. Brent does have a bit of bluster to him doesn't
he?
The "support from two eastern powers" was a bunch of wind as well. I know
Adam said he wouldn't build in the north, but the only other power I can
think of is Raine. Might be true, might not.
Regarding the analysis in my last letter, I noticed that I missed the fact
that England could order:
yor - lon
nth - eng
nwy - nth
Assuming you supported Brest into the channel, that would still allow him to
keep both the North Sea *and* the channel while setting him up for a fall
assault on London. My brain must not have been too clear when I wrote that.
Bad beer! Bad! (shaking finger at open bottle). :)
That opens the possibility of you just ordering Lon - Wal and trying for
Liverpool right off. The one thing I don't want to do is support you into
the North Sea. That makes sense doesn't it?
I still plan on ordering Den - Nth and I still plan on taking Belgium
(thanks again). Also, I like your suggestion of Kie - Hel and Mun - Bur. I
will probably do both. Regarding Burgundy, I have no problem with bouncing
there. Frankly, if you support yourself in I really have little to say
about it; it is your territory afterall.
I think I addressed every issue you raised. Please let me know if I missed
one.
- Steve
P.S. Even if I don't take the North Sea in the spring (which I don't expect
to do), I expect to take it by fall. I think I said this before, but I
don't remember for sure.
From - Tue Sep 25 18:12:45 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
[What we must do next is discuss these openly. Just to be clear, my "needs"
are:
1) To ensure Italy realizes Munich is dead-end
2) To ensure Russia has no reason to attack me until I'm ready to defend
3) To take Belgium without losing another center]
1 and 2 I understand, and have been working pretty hard diplomatically to
help achieve. 3 is interesting considering that at one point I thought
there was an agreement for me to get Belgium, but since I can't take it
right now I guess its better that you have it than France. I'm just
concerned that we've gone from a goal of being even at 5 centers, to a point
where your 6th center is a need but my 4th center is a want.
[I think your needs are:
1) To retake London
2) To keep the North Sea in English hands or at least unoccupied]
Here's our disagreement. You're looking at my tactical needs, and that is
a fairly accurate account of them. I would amend 1 to be retake London
without losing Liverpool, as it doesn't really help me much to take one and
lose the other. But my biggest disagreement, and I think the source of our
misunderstanding, is that I have a goal which is MUCH more important than
either of those two. And that is to find a reliable ally. I'd be willing
to trade both of the goals listed above for that, and its the one thing that
you've refused to give me. Of course, no one else on this side of the board
has taken me up either.
[I want to see you and Rod fighting]
Done. =)
[I want to see Rod take a hit]
Then give him one!
[I also want to see one of EFG (not me) fall as quickly as possible.]
In order for that to happen, you're going to have to take a side. And do
it before Russia is ready to attack you.
[I think you want to see me commit, but definitely not against you. At the
least, you want me to have at least one enemy]
Not entirely accurate. I want France to be your enemy. The rest I'm
trying to convince NOT to be your enemy, so that you can concentrate on
France.
[and you'd like to pick up a fifth center.]
Actually, I'd like to pick up a 4th center first. =) With a 50/50 chance
with France, the only way I'm guaranteed a fourth center is by getting your
help into one.
Anyways, I hope this helps to clear up the confusion about my goals, and
shows that I'm not just whining because I like to. Thanks for your
perspective!
Brent
From - Tue Sep 25 18:12:47 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
Thanks for your letter. I want to make sure we understand each other
clearly so I am responding to each point in your last letter.
> People tell me things I don't want to hear :-( Some people think that FG
> is forming. That puts me into difficult position. I have even considered a
> full force attack against France but there really is no point if you are
> not with me. I can hit my head to a wall for a long time with no results
> (but headache). So, I hope the rumours turn out to be untrue.
There is certainly no FG alliance just like there is no EG alliance. I
think you and I have the closest thing to an alliance on the board right
now. I will definitely order a supported attack on Burgundy. I don't want
you to get a headache. :)
I will point out, though, that you can order Tyr - Mun and give *me* the
headache. Please don't do that.
> At the moment the quickest way to resolve west is FG :-( I can tell you
> that you are not in a hurry. East is not going to resolve quickly. Eric is
> making a huge effort to not be the odd one out. No need to tell you that
> Eric is a good player.
Yea, when I told EF that I wanted to resolve the triangle quickly, I was
hoping one of them would commit. Luckily, France took London and now
England is desperate. I, myself, was able to move more slowly thanks to our
cooperation in Munich. Thanks again.
Regarding Eric, I think he will hold out for quite a long time. I probably
won't attack Adam in the north, but I will write press to support Eric.
> My hope is that you concentrate on Belgium in fall. Please, attack Bur
> with support in spring. From above I get the feeling of supported attack
> to Bel and only a unsupported move to Bur. That would be a huge
> disapointement to me. I am only selfish when I offer Mar to you. 1st I
> offer it only temporary and 2nd it means weaker France and it would be
> good for me.
By supporting myself into Burgundy, I ensure my self Belgium in the fall no
matter what anyone else does. If I take Marseilles as well, that is a bonus
to me this year, but it definitely helps both of us long-term. I think we
agree on this point.
> Yes, Marseilles would be your for a year or two but in the end I would
> get it.
I agree. I am being truthful when I say you can have it. My targets are
Paris and Brest.
> It is ok. Too bad that only other solution is ok. I would feel like a
> child without presents at cristmas if you ally with France and forget the
> generous offer I made.
Raine, I would never ruin your Christmas. I think there will be enough
presents for both of us. :)
> Two questions:
> Do you think Eric has made any progress to get Keith on his side?
I really don't know, but I hope so. I'm a little afraid about Russia
getting too big, but not that much. As I said earlier, I will do whatever I
can short of attacking Adam that will help Eric out.
> Could you clarify your intensions in west? (this is essential for me! You
> know what I want to hear :-)
I hope I have. :)
If there's anything else you'd like to know, please write. I appreciate the
way we are working together.
I'll be online tomorrow afternoon (1-5 EST, 7-11 your time, I think). Maybe
we can exchange a couple of letters then. Talk to you soon.
- Steve
From - Tue Sep 25 18:12:51 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria and Russia in
'gutsy':
Dear Allies,
My apologies. I thought we had deadline today :-( I feel like newbie...
I had a deadline yesterday for submitting an abstract to DPS (Division of
Planetary Sciences) meeting. The meeting is in New Orleans in the end of
November. It will be my 1st time in US. You are the 1st ones to know that
I am going to ask for deadline extension then :-) So that was kind of
excuse for my behaviour :-)
I answer to both of you as soon as possible.
Yours, Raine
Ps. I need to tell you more about sauna later :-)
From - Tue Sep 25 18:12:55 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
This is only for your eyes.
Are you serious that Eric is silent? Wow, it means that he is putting a
lot of effort on Keith. I have heard from western powers that Eric is
trying to manipulate Keith on his side. I don't believe that Eric is
silent to every eastern power. No, Eric is too experienced for that.
He might be in a hurry with 'titleist' and 'gutsy' so that would explain
the lack of press to us (RI).
While Keith replied that Eric is not talking much to him I think we should
at least consider the possibility of AT. I might be too paranoid but that
is the way I am.
> I don't think he's much, if at all, better than the
> rest of us is he? We'll find out soon I guess.
I hope we don't fine out AT.
> We still have more than 30 hours don't we?
You are right. Sorry about the hassle. My brains were on vacation.
Raine
From - Tue Sep 25 18:12:57 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria and Russia in
'gutsy':
Hi Allies,
Back to business...
> No, only a few messages uring me to attack either Italy or Russia.
I am surprised! I would guess that Eric will fight till the bitter end.
> I
> have also been getting suggestions along these lines from a number of
> other countries (mainly worried about Russia).
This ain't fair! They should be worried about me too :-) But seriously we
need to keep the balance in our alliance. Otherwise one might try to do
something stupid.
> His units are made of the same stuff as ours are. If we send four units
> against his three (I'm already assuming we're getting rid of Bul), he'll
> fall in two years or less.
I meant that he might hypnotize one of us :-) No, he is just good
diplomat. I am sure he has some good offers to us to get an ally. I just
hope all of us agree that when the SE corner has changed ownership we
are in much better situation.
Raine
From - Tue Sep 25 18:12:58 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
This is for your eyes only.
> Hi, you asked if I am willing to exchange Greece for Bulgaria. Yes I am,
> and if you insist upon this, I will let you have Greece.
Well, I don't insist. I have some reasonable reasons. At the beginnig
i.e. 1901 Austria is not able to attack Italy. Like you said in the
beginning. I was able to attack you but I decided rather to ally with you.
Now that you got those 2 builds the situation has turned around. I cannot
attack you effectively but you are able to attack me. I hope you make the
decision to rather keep me as your ally than attack me.
To get our AI alliance in balance, that is the reason I ask you to let me
have Greece (with fleet ofcourse). I would like to have a build next year.
You are sure to have one from Bulgaria. That would mean 6 units for you
and 4 units for me if you are not willing to let me to Greece. But if you
could give me Greece then it is 5 and 5 (Turkey is in 3). I won't insist
Greece but I hope you are willing to give it to me in the name of AI
alliance.
> I was thinking about alternatives. First, let me be frank and air my
> concerns. It is true that you and Russia are getting along well, and I
> am somewhat concerned that you and he could crush me between you once
> Turkey is declawed.
I thought I was getting along well with you. Why do you say that I am
getting along well with Russia? What comes to crushing you that is not in
my plans. I plan to build mainly (maybe only) fleets. I am willing to put
a fleet in Greece that shouldn't worry you. I am willing to turn west
while I can. France is pushing hard to north and the sooner I have a
chance to get west the better. At 1st I want to get rid of Turkey.
> If you and Russia were going to do this, I would
> imagine you would try to convoy your army from Tunis to Greece or perhaps
> Albania.
I understand your fears. I am not convoying to Greece or Albania. That is
a promise. I am considering to move to Ion-Eas and Nap-Ion. I would like
to hold in Tunis rather than move to Naf due to possibility of concoying
to Turkey. I hope it is not unreasonable to hold in Tunis.
> If not, having your fleets in Greece and Eas kind of keeps them out of
> the action for some time. If you move to Greece, the fleet that you
> build can start moving west the next year. But, you could start moving
> west now, and you would get further ahead. It just seems to me that
> your taking Greece does not buy you anything, because you will have an
> extra fleet behind, out of the action.
Here is the 'balance of power' thing I mentioned. I am afraid of AT (like
you are afraid of my sneak to Alb or Gre). I think Eric is talking to you
or to Adam more that you are willing to say in common press. I hope I am
wrong. The point is that you are at the moment better positioned to attack
me than I am to attack you. That is why I would like to get your
permission to go to Greece. That would balance AI. You could take Greece
back with force, anytime. I am going to head west later and I'll leave the
minimum amount of forces behind.
> You are guaranteed at least one build after 1903, and I think we can make
> a case with Russia, especially if we are able to get something from
> Germany, that you should get Con as well for another build in 1904. This
> should give you all of the naval power you will need against France.
> Perhaps you won't even need that since you will hopefully get England on
> your side.
I hope you understand my situation. I would like to get a build sooner
than after 1903.
> ill-intentioned plans against Austria, but my paranoid-meter mandates that
> I consider all these things.
I have found a person that thinks the way I think :-) My paranoid-meter is
at red all the time. I hope you think about my position for awhile. You
will notice that I am the underdog here. I am afraid of possible AT. I am
afraid of your attack against me, yes you could attack me with no help
from others and I would be toast. All you need is Russia and Turkey
fighting.
> Once Turkey is gone, we have to look for
> other places to attack (France and Germany), and if we don't get started
> on these right away, I'm afraid one of us might find it too tempting to
> attack one of our closer neighbors instead.
I think that in attack against Turkey Russia is only helping our AI
alliance. When Turkey is gone you should attack Russia. That is how I
feel. I am building fleets and heading west. AI is a strong alliance due
to nature of army-rich Austria and fleet-rich Italy. This is my plan.
One can claim that I will ally with Russia and crush you but Russia would
take almost all the SC's from you if there would be a RI against A.
I am honest with you and I hope you can think about my position. It is the
best plan for Italy to:
1-get rid of Turkey, with all possible help from AR
2-head west, keep AI strong and A strong enough to be able to beat R.
IR would benefit Russia so much more and that 2nd Russian fleet in
south is not a sign of long term RI alliance.
I am not good diplomatic. I know it. I ain't native english speaker. I
hope you put more weight on my moves I have made. They have been friendly
to you. I could have moved against you but I didn't. I hope you believe
that AI alliance is my desire.
Raine
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:04 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I think Italy will move his unit from Tyrolia. I have asked him too, and
> I think he will agree. I don't know exactly where he will move it, but I
> would guess Venice, or less likley Piedmont.
Good to hear. I don't want to see him in Tyrolia (or Bohemia for that
matter), but I'm torn between Piedmont and Venice. Whichever way you want
to encourage him is fine with me, though. Except Munich, please. :)
> Turkey is communicating, although only a bit. I am considering taking
> Bulgaria and hoping for the best otherwise.
I thought you would consider Bulgaria next. If I were in your shoes, I
would do the same. Makes me think, though, that you and Raine have been
talking a bit. I'm hopeful that a reliable central power thing might still
develop.
It also sounds like Tyrolia might be a DMZ. Is that a possibility?
Thanks and please write when you can.
- Steve
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:07 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Are you serious that Eric is silent?
Yep. He replied to a note I sent him yesterday during the
night at some point but didn't say a lot. Seems he's thinking
of trying to hold out against me, let Austria take his
centers and hope you head West instead. I don't think
he's been writing much, probably figures he's doomed
here and he might as well concentrate on his other games
I guess.
> I have heard from western powers that Eric is
> trying to manipulate Keith on his side.
Steve tells me that he's heard a 'ton' of rumours
and doesn't really know what's going on. That's
good for us I guess.
> He might be in a hurry with 'titleist' and 'gutsy' so that would explain
> the lack of press to us (RI).
>From that note he sent me last night, he seems to mostly
hope that you will give up and turn west rather than
anything else. From that press it would seem he wrote
to you the most but who knows?
> While Keith replied that Eric is not talking much to him I think we should
> at least consider the possibility of AT. I might be too paranoid but that
> is the way I am.
Keith seems fairly genuine to me, the idea that the three
of us could overrun the board in no time is very tempting
actually. An attack on Germany this spring, finishing off
Turkey next year, Germany falls the year after that. France
would be in desperate trouble, and you and England would
have been attacking him jointly for a while even before
that.
Makes me wonder if stabbing Austria as soon as we
planned is the best route. We need at least another
year of his help anyway so we'll talk about it
after the fall moves, maybe the triple alliance
could go far though, I'm finding the speed that
our enemies could be forced down exilihrating.
Adam.........
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:10 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> The French sailors are very much enjoying their trip to London, but they
> expect it to be a short one. They do hope, however, to pay a visit to
> Liverpool on the return trip.
Yes, it's a shame for England that he could't raise any manpower
in Liverpool to stave off the French. Personally there's no
way I wouldn't have moved A Yor - Lon last fall.
> The newly qualified seamen in Kiel are not planning anything special. Their
> orders are very simple: Keep a low profile and be prepared to protect the
> Motherland. They have been cleared to patrol the Helgoland Bight, Holland
> and Kiel but have strict orders not to enter the Baltic Sea.
That's good news indeed though I'm sure England would worry if they
sailed to Helgoland Bight. Still, the center in Norway would
be plenty of consolation for me should England fall.
> As far as the west was concerned, the only one talking *that* much has been
> England. I have had decent exchanges with everyone else in both quantity
> and quality, but Brent continues to amaze me. The quantity to quality ratio
> is about 3:1. I'm probably being too harsh, but I received two nagging
> "Where are you?" messages in a 15-hour period. Come up for air, Brent,
> breathe a little. :)
I guess he's anxious that you don't join Frances attack on him.
Volume is one thing but when there's nothing extra to say
there's very little point in saying it, despite all the
stats that say the person who sends the most press generally
wins the game.
> Now, regarding us. If I do eventually take the North Sea and it looks like
> England is going down, you can have Norway, I have no problem with that at
> all.
Thanks, very good to hear. I've heard rumours that folks in
the west were getting anxious about Russia's size already,
despite the fact I expect no builds at all this year. I'm
glad they don't appear to have been comming from your
direction, farther west presumably.
> My goal this year, however, is to take Belgium so I probably won't
> strike quite yet. I figure I have one more year to watch EF butt heads
> before I have to move.
Caution can only take you so far of course. If you wait much longer
on the fence there will only be one side of it left, France could
get into a more exposed position I suppose but Brent is
unlikely to start looking more worth saving the longer you
wait.
> The only other thing I want to say is: Don't let Keith get too big; a six
> or seven center Austria is a real beast. My only Russian successes have
> come from juggernauts so I can really advise you much on an AR, but that's
> what I'm thinking.
I have been thinking about that. Confidentially, Italy and I have been
talking about it too. I think we need his help for another year or
so which could end up with him being that 6 or 7 center power but
should also end up with him surrounded with any luck. If you
have an army or two spare then it's interesting to note you'll
be a power who helps with that complete all-around cover.
We'll see, plans for this fall aren't exactly clear, next year is like
a nineteenth century London smog.
Adam..........
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:13 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria and Italy in 'gutsy':
> Italy moves Ion-Eas
> Austria moves Ser-Bul, Gre-Aeg
> Russia orders Rum S Ser-Bul, Bla S Ser-Bul, Sev S Bla
Looks like we're agreed that these are the best moves for
the spring at least.
> Consider this:
> Austria moves Tri-Tyr, Vie-Boh
> Russia moves War-Sil
> Italy orders Nap-Tys, Ven-Pie
In the fall? Italy hasn't got an army in Ven at the moment
of course, he could move Tyr - Ven - Pie during the year
though. Proabaly worth moving Nap into Ion and then Tys
in the fall if that's what the plan is.
Alternatively, Italian A Tys could move toward France
through munich while a new army for him is built in
Ven to move to Pie next year. That would mean Greece
staying Austrian for a while.
> How does this sound? Is this too radical? We can play it safe, but we
> might lose momentum. I have a number of armies that will go unused,
> otherwise.
I like the idea of going for a radical tripple alliance
bust over all of Europe. Eric will be gone in next to no
time with practically no effort on our parts. We've already
got about half our forces going spare anyway. Here's a plan
that I like a lot:
A: A Vie - Boh; F Gre - Aeg; A Ser - Bul
R: A Rum S A Ser - Bul; F Bla S A Ser - Bul (cut?); F Sev S F Bla;
A War - SIl; A Mos - War
I: F Ion - Eas; F Nap - Ion; A Tyr H
We have three units on Munich so can guarentee Italy will
gain Munich in the fall. He builds A Ven and next year
moves Mun - Bur and Ven - Pie and puts F Ion - Tys. Now
he goes all out against France with English help.
Meanwhile, with any luck I can take Berlin with A War.
That'll depend on absolute secrecy from Steve this spring
and his trusting me more than he ought to. If not then
hey, there's always next year.
In Turkey we can guarentee Bul if we don't already have it
and can get a fleet into Aeg too. Next year I can hopefully
take Ank while you two take Con and Smy.
What does everyone think? If Raine is going after France
(and someone needs to, he's looking too strong) the a
perfect way to hide that is to go through Munich. Keith
and I would be moving into Germany anyway so retailiation
from Germany shouldn't be a problem. If we move now then,
as Keith pointed out, we can probably count on English
support against the two of them as well.
I'm finding the prospect of such a huge and fast push
against Europe from the three of us both exilerating
and intreguing, it promises a lot of fun and I've never
really seen it done before either, which is always
a bonus.
Adam............
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:15 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
Just in case this gets back to you, I should warn you
that Germany told me to be wary of a large 6 or 7 center
Austria. Since I'm trying to keep his absolute trust in
the hope we can take Ber and Mun this year I replied
to him saying that I was thinking about his advice and
even hinted that an attack from both he and I, possbily
including Italy, would be nice in a year or two once
Turkey is dead. I doubt he'll mention it to anyone but
just in case: it's not true and the attack from us
both this year on Germany (if we decide to do it) should
confirm that before the conjectured RG vs A would have
happend anyway so there's nothing to fear.
Adam..........
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:16 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Thanks for the note.
> he's been writing much, probably figures he's doomed
> here and he might as well concentrate on his other games
> I guess.
Maybe you are right. I find it hard to believe but one never knows.
> >From that note he sent me last night, he seems to mostly
> hope that you will give up and turn west rather than
> anything else. From that press it would seem he wrote
> to you the most but who knows?
I have received short answer to my questions but nothing constructive.
> Keith seems fairly genuine to me, the idea that the three
> of us could overrun the board in no time is very tempting
> actually. An attack on Germany this spring, finishing off
> Turkey next year, Germany falls the year after that. France
> would be in desperate trouble, and you and England would
> have been attacking him jointly for a while even before
> that.
That is a good plan indeed. We have forgotten to speak about Greece. Or
to be specific Keith hasn't replied to me about Greece. He says that he is
willing to give it to me if I insist. Now I am waiting for new comments
from him. I really _need_ a build next year to be able to attack France
with force and to be able to do it without fears of Austrian stab.
> Makes me wonder if stabbing Austria as soon as we
> planned is the best route. We need at least another
> year of his help anyway so we'll talk about it
> after the fall moves, maybe the triple alliance
> could go far though, I'm finding the speed that
> our enemies could be forced down exilihrating.
I think it might be wise to put knives away untill we get rid of Turkey.
Raine
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:18 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> That is a good plan indeed. We have forgotten to speak about Greece. Or
> to be specific Keith hasn't replied to me about Greece. He says that he is
> willing to give it to me if I insist. Now I am waiting for new comments
> from him. I really _need_ a build next year to be able to attack France
> with force and to be able to do it without fears of Austrian stab.
So what about my idea to give you Munich as an avenue to move
around and attack France? It's unlikely that Keith will want
to give you both Munich AND Gre but one of the two should
be more than possible I'd have thought.
Adam.........
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:20 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
Thanks for you note.
> There is certainly no FG alliance just like there is no EG alliance. I
> think you and I have the closest thing to an alliance on the board right
> now. I will definitely order a supported attack on Burgundy. I don't want
> you to get a headache. :)
:-) Thanks. The supported attack to Burgundy should give be no headaches.
Quite the opposite :-)
> I will point out, though, that you can order Tyr - Mun and give *me* the
> headache. Please don't do that.
I won't do that. I consider you as my longterm ally. I like to talk with
you and I don't want to talk with you when you have headache.
> By supporting myself into Burgundy, I ensure my self Belgium in the fall no
> matter what anyone else does. If I take Marseilles as well, that is a bonus
> to me this year, but it definitely helps both of us long-term. I think we
> agree on this point.
I agree with you. I hope that in the long run you wouldn't build too many
fleets. Let me play the shipmaker :-)
> Raine, I would never ruin your Christmas. I think there will be enough
> presents for both of us. :)
*smile*
> If there's anything else you'd like to know, please write. I appreciate the
> way we are working together.
>
> I'll be online tomorrow afternoon (1-5 EST, 7-11 your time, I think). Maybe
> we can exchange a couple of letters then. Talk to you soon.
I couldn't write to you earlier. One more good thing about GI alliance: we
do not have _very_ urgent things, yet.
Raine
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:22 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> It's no problem for *us* if he can't defend the homeland. ;-)
Ah, but the point was that I want him to move Nwy away,
maybe I can take it without having to force it, just slip
in when I feel ready.
> If you have other priorities, that's fine, but Nwy is essentially
> a free center. You can force it, and Brent does not have the
> wherewithal to retaliate.
I've talked with Steve about this, essentially I'll take Nwy,
eventually but I'm a little worried about Early Leader Syndrome
as far as the powers in the south are concerned and I'm
unwilling to tip the balance in the West too quickly either.
Possibly I'll try for it in the fall if Nwy does move away,
most likely I'll take it next year if yours and Steve's
attack continues to do so well.
Adam.................................
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:25 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> So what about my idea to give you Munich as an avenue to move
> around and attack France? It's unlikely that Keith will want
> to give you both Munich AND Gre but one of the two should
> be more than possible I'd have thought.
I would like to have Greece rather than Munich. I am ready to give Keith
the priviledge to go to Munich. Keith has more armies than I do and he
could do better there than I.
Raine
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:28 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
You asked about my relations with Austria. They are fairly likely between
neutral and good :-)
I am asked to leave Tyrolia. If I told it to you in advance that I would
like to move to Pie, how would you react? I certainly don't want to do
any harm to you. I know that I could just move to Pie but I don't want to
do that if you strongly disagree. Let me know your opinion? If you don't
want me there then could you give some reasonings? I mean I want to be a
good guy afterall :-)
Raine
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:30 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria and Russia in
'gutsy':
Dear Allies,
If you want to jump to sauna discussion go straight to post scriptum :-)
About the ARI alliance:
At the moment I am down to 4 SC. Do you think I am greed if I ask to have
Greece next? I would like to get it only if/when Austria gets Bulgaria.
-Munich
I have promised to move away from Tyrolia. Most likely to Venice 'cause I
want to surprise France when I move most of my units against him. That
leaves Munich for Keith, I would guess.
> Alternatively, Italian A Tys could move toward France
> through munich while a new army for him is built in
> Ven to move to Pie next year. That would mean Greece
> staying Austrian for a while.
Munich is not a sure bet. I would like to see Austrian army in
Bulgaria(sc) and Italian army in Greece. Wouldn't that be an easy way to
build a peaceful forder between us? Russia should try to put a fleet in
Rumania later.
I like this triple idea. We all need a separate way of expansion. That
means that I don't want to be in Austria's way in Munich. It really is
bonus to have an unusual alliance.
So far we have talked and more or less agreed about
R: Sev S Bla
Bla S Ser-Bul
Rum S Ser-Bul
A: Ser-Bul
Gre-Aeg
I: Ion-Eas
correct me if I'm wrong.
Yours,
Raine
PS. About Sauna: Traditionally sauna is close to lake, river or sea. So
that one can go to swim from sauna. At winter time there is a hole in ice
so that people can go to cold water. If there ain't a place to swim near
then one can go to snow at wintertime. Nowadays there is even apartments
with one bedroom and sauna! Swedes have their 'bastu' which is almost the
same as sauna but there is about 20 degrees less heat in there.
Sauna is a perfect way to relax your muscles after a hard day at work or
after a workout. There are electic saunas and saunas that are heat up by
wood. Just tell me if you want to know more about sauna. I am happy to
tell you about it :-)
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:36 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
I like Russia's idea of giving Munich to Italy. This will solve Italy's
build problem (though I think a fleet build is better), and it will keep
Italy's fleets in the West, except for one. The advantage is that Italy
could move Nap-Tys in the Spring rather than waiting two more turns
before he moved to Tys.
If Italy trusted me completely, I could move Tri-Ven-Pie, but I think this
is not likely. However, please consider it. This could be a trick that
throws France off guard, and it might even avoid any French reaction at
all so we would have a fleet in Wes or Lyo in the Fall along with armies
in Munich and Piedmont. Germany would be crushed in the middle by us all,
and I would move in reinforcement armies while Italy crushed France.
I am willing to go along with any plan that you two agree on. I am
willing to move Vie-Boh and Tri-Tyr, or whatever. I will order Ser-Bul
in the Spring, though I am still debating whether Gre-Aeg or Gre S
Ser-Bul would be better. I don't want to be in the position of allowing
Turkey to be able to retreat Bulgaria to Greece. Then I have to worry
about Serbia, and it becomes a large mess.
If Italy decides to stay in Tyrolia, he should support Vie-Boh rather
than just holding. (Or we could order a bounce in Venice.)
Just so you two know, I am getting married this weekend, so things are
becoming increasingly hectic around here. I will write when I can. This
coming move is important, so I will try to find time to negotiate
everything properly.
Austria
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:37 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> > No, only a few messages uring me to attack either Italy or Russia.
>
> I am surprised! I would guess that Eric will fight till the bitter end.
I have gotten a few more messages since then. He wants me to attack
Rumania with his support.
Austria
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:39 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
It sounds like Italy is vetoing part of this plan. I can't really afford
to move both Tri-Tyr and Vie-Boh with the possibility of Russian and
Italian units so close to the Austrian border. I am willing to make
these moves as part of a rapid assault against Germany, France and
Turkey, but if we do not all agree on this, I am content to wait. I can
give Greece to Italy, and we could try this next year. I am worried that
it won't have the same effect, though.
Austria
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:40 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria and Russia in
'gutsy':
I need to go soon. So here is a quick reply:
> I like Russia's idea of giving Munich to Italy.
I don't like it. I want to be a fleet power. So, please let's forget Italy
in Munich.
> This will solve Italy's
> build problem (though I think a fleet build is better), and it will keep
> Italy's fleets in the West, except for one. The advantage is that Italy
> could move Nap-Tys in the Spring rather than waiting two more turns
> before he moved to Tys.
That would ruin my possibility to Lepanto. I can consider that but most
likely I won't move to Tys, yet.
> If Italy trusted me completely, I could move Tri-Ven-Pie, but I think this
> is not likely. However, please consider it. This could be a trick that
> throws France off guard, and it might even avoid any French reaction at
> all so we would have a fleet in Wes or Lyo in the Fall along with armies
> in Munich and Piedmont. Germany would be crushed in the middle by us all,
> and I would move in reinforcement armies while Italy crushed France.
Keith don't take this personally but let's build that trust, ok? You are
getting married congratulations! That probably means that we are not able
to do that hectic talks that Tri-Ven-Pie would need. I know I am busy at
work so I would rather keep things simple.
> I am willing to go along with any plan that you two agree on. I am
> willing to move Vie-Boh and Tri-Tyr, or whatever. I will order Ser-Bul
> in the Spring, though I am still debating whether Gre-Aeg or Gre S
> Ser-Bul would be better. I don't want to be in the position of allowing
> Turkey to be able to retreat Bulgaria to Greece. Then I have to worry
> about Serbia, and it becomes a large mess.
If I move Ion-Eas and Nap-Ion (almost guaranteed) and if Greece is
promised to me then I will kick Eric out of Greece. You can also move to
Bul from Greece that would prevent Eric's retreat opportunity to Gre.
> If Italy decides to stay in Tyrolia, he should support Vie-Boh rather
> than just holding. (Or we could order a bounce in Venice.)
No bounce, please.
> Just so you two know, I am getting married this weekend, so things are
> becoming increasingly hectic around here. I will write when I can. This
> coming move is important, so I will try to find time to negotiate
> everything properly.
Lucky you! Please don't mind if I dont't give you Venice as a wedding
present :-)
Raine
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:43 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria and Russia in
'gutsy':
> Turkey, but if we do not all agree on this, I am content to wait. I can
> give Greece to Italy, and we could try this next year. I am worried that
> it won't have the same effect, though.
It might be wise to keep our alliance tight rather than hurry too much.
Waiting till next year is a good idea 'cause then all of us can rely on
ARI alliance more. Also there is no point to divide Austria to all
directions at once.
Raine
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:46 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Okay, your caution is understood. Sometimes I get fantastic plans in
mind, but it is okay if we proceed slowly.
You can take Greece. This was part of our arrangement since very early
in the game. Will you consider Tun-Naf, though? In the Fall you will
probably need to support Gre-Aeg with Eas. A convoy would be good
footing against Russia (if it succeeds), but Russia might not approve
it. You can work this out with him. If it turns out that convoying to
Turkey in the Fall is not a possibility, then will you consider moving
Tun-Naf just for my peace of mind?
Do you want me in Tyrolia at all? I am ordering Tri-Tyr and Vie-Boh
now. We can abandon the Germany plan if you want. It is just that I
have nowhere to expand to other than Germany (or you or Russia) once I
take Bulgaria. It might be better for me to wait, anyway. If Russia
moved War-Gal I could be in trouble.
Austria
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:48 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> I thought you would consider Bulgaria next. If I were in your shoes, I
> would do the same. Makes me think, though, that you and Raine have been
> talking a bit. I'm hopeful that a reliable central power thing might still
> develop.
Italy seems to be very paranoid. I have presented him with a number of
plans, but he doesn't seem to like most of them.
> It also sounds like Tyrolia might be a DMZ. Is that a possibility?
I had not considered that you would want to move there. I would only do
it if Italy provoked it, but I think this is not likely.
Austria
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:50 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria and Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine in Italy wrote:
> At the moment I am down to 4 SC. Do you think I am greed if I ask to have
> Greece next? I would like to get it only if/when Austria gets Bulgaria.
>
> -Munich
> I have promised to move away from Tyrolia. Most likely to Venice 'cause I
> want to surprise France when I move most of my units against him. That
> leaves Munich for Keith, I would guess.
Of course Italy should get a build this year assuming that
Austria does (and Austria should be able to), whether that
is better in Gre or in Mun is debateable but really not
so much my concern as the two of yours. I think that
taking Munich then using that to leaverage into France
would be MORE surprising to him than the obvious route
though Ven and Pie however.
If Italy does take Gre, and Austria looks close to getting
Smy/Con as well as Bul and Berlin is protected then I'd
like to take Munich myself. These are fairly unlikely
circumstances though.
> Munich is not a sure bet. I would like to see Austrian army in
> Bulgaria(sc) and Italian army in Greece. Wouldn't that be an easy way to
> build a peaceful forder between us? Russia should try to put a fleet in
> Rumania later.
It's as near as damnit, surely. If I move War - Sil and Keith
moves to Boh we have Boh, Sil and Tyr all able to attack Munich
while Steve would have to be paranoid in the extreme to
see the threat and order Hol - Kie, Ruh H, Mun H wouldn't
he? Especially since he tells me he intends to try for Bel
this year.
> I like this triple idea. We all need a separate way of expansion. That
> means that I don't want to be in Austria's way in Munich. It really is
> bonus to have an unusual alliance.
Munich would probably be a tempory build to launch the
attack on France I'd imagine, swapped for Gre at a
later date perhaps.
> So far we have talked and more or less agreed about
> R: Sev S Bla
> Bla S Ser-Bul
> Rum S Ser-Bul
I'll be making these order anyway.
Keith in Austria wrote:
> If Italy trusted me completely, I could move Tri-Ven-Pie, but I think this
> is not likely. However, please consider it.
If it were me, I'd probably not go for it, but it's not
me it's Raine so I can encourage him to do so without
fear :)
> This could be a trick that
> throws France off guard, and it might even avoid any French reaction at
> all so we would have a fleet in Wes or Lyo in the Fall along with armies
> in Munich and Piedmont.
The combination of this and slingshotting A Tyr around Swi into
France would definately take France completely by surprise.
> I am willing to go along with any plan that you two agree on. I am
> willing to move Vie-Boh and Tri-Tyr, or whatever. I will order Ser-Bul
> in the Spring, though I am still debating whether Gre-Aeg or Gre S
> Ser-Bul would be better. I don't want to be in the position of allowing
> Turkey to be able to retreat Bulgaria to Greece.
I hadn't thought about that retreat at all, damn. If Tri is
free (not moving to Ven either to bounce or go on to Pie) then
you could leave the Bul attack until the fall and get A Tri
to make Gre unavailable in the fall with Tri - Alb - Gre.
Alternatively F Nap can also get to Gre by the fall. It would
mean not even trying to get Bul in the spring for fear of that
retreat though.
If neither of these are good then, yeah, you're right to keep
Gre in place.
> Just so you two know, I am getting married this weekend, so things are
> becoming increasingly hectic around here. I will write when I can. This
> coming move is important, so I will try to find time to negotiate
> everything properly.
Congratulations! It's probably worth noting that me and Raine
are considerably further East than you are and will probably have
to have our moves in before we go to bed. That leaves about
an hour here at work then slower response time until I hit
the sack with my orders already sent in around midnight or
One AM BST which is, uh, eight hours or so from now.
Adam...........
endpresss
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:52 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Do you think I should move Tri-Ven to bounce Italy and force him to be in
Tyrolia for the Fall, so we can support him to Munich, or do you think
this would piss him off?
It seems like we are sticking our necks out against Germany, but Italy
isn't willing to do the same against France. Should we call this all off?
Austria
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:55 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria and Italy in 'gutsy':
> It sounds like Italy is vetoing part of this plan. I can't really afford
> to move both Tri-Tyr and Vie-Boh with the possibility of Russian and
> Italian units so close to the Austrian border. I am willing to make
> these moves as part of a rapid assault against Germany, France and
> Turkey, but if we do not all agree on this, I am content to wait. I can
> give Greece to Italy, and we could try this next year. I am worried that
> it won't have the same effect, though.
Well, I still don't really understand Italy's objection to
taking Munich but I guess if he doesn't want to we
certainly can't make him. The main trouble, as far as
I'm concerned, with waiting a year is, of course, it
leaves me with no chance for a build at all this year
unless I take Norway from England which I don't want
to do since it would leave us one less ally in the
west when we do finally turn around.
Sounds like Raine is about to leave work too, probably
his last email access until after the deadline. Tricky.
Adam.........
From - Tue Sep 25 18:13:57 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Do you think I should move Tri-Ven to bounce Italy and force him to be in
> Tyrolia for the Fall, so we can support him to Munich, or do you think
> this would piss him off?
I think that would piss him off, yeah, it's not the kind of
thing we'd need to do if we were trying to swamp the whole
board in a couple of years. You need concensus for that
really. It's a shame because it's a beautiful plan.
> It seems like we are sticking our necks out against Germany, but Italy
> isn't willing to do the same against France. Should we call this all off?
Well, if you're prepared to move to Boh and Tyr yourself then
we could still take on Germany just as quickly, but if (as you
indicated) that's too big a risk as well then we probably
should leave him alone for a while. Lucky old Steve seems
to be managing to avoid all conflict so far. He tells me
he intends to spend another year on the fence before he chooses
between France and England too!
I dunno. There's no point me moving into Germany without support
from Boh and Tyr anyway, I could try for Norway I suppose.
We could bounce in Gal yet again, though that's begining
to seem really stupid.
Adam......
From - Tue Sep 25 18:14:05 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> Bad beer! Bad! (shaking finger at open bottle). :)
You should start buying the *good* stuff. ;-)
> That opens the possibility of you just ordering Lon - Wal
That's an intriguing possibility. I'll consider it.
> The one thing I don't want to do is support you into the North Sea.
No problem. I wouldn't expect you to.
> I still plan on ordering Den - Nth and I still plan on taking Belgium
Sounds good.
> Also, I like your suggestion of Kie - Hel and Mun - Bur. I
> will probably do both.
OK.
> Regarding Burgundy, I have no problem with bouncing there.
Italy is now asking if it's OK with me if he moves to Pie. I'm going
to give him an emphatic "NO", but just in case he gets any ideas, it
might be prudent for me to move Par-Gas so I can cover Mar in the Fall
(without moving Spa-Mar and possibly not taking Spa). Please confirm
that you *will* do Mun-Bur, then I can just bounce you with A Pic
while doing Par-Gas.
Or if you're sure you wouldn't mind Pic S Par-Bur, I could do that,
which gives me the option of either covering Mar or moving Bur-Pic
when I convoy A Pic. Let me know your feelings on this.
> Even if I don't take the North Sea in the spring (which I don't expect
> to do), I expect to take it by fall.
I agree completely. Kie-Hel virtually ensures Nth in the Fall.
Rod
From - Tue Sep 25 18:14:08 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> You asked about my relations with Austria. They are fairly likely
> between neutral and good :-)
Good. It's nice to have friends, eh? :-)
> I am asked to leave Tyrolia. If I told it to you in advance that I
> would like to move to Pie, how would you react?
I would disapprove of any move to Pie. Pie is adjacent to my home
center Mar, and an Italian army in Pie is really of little use in
any endeavor except hostilities with France. It's not that I don't
trust you - it's just that I tend to get paranoid in highly-rated
games, and then I do irrational things. I would much rather avoid
that.
> If you don't want me there then could you give some reasonings?
For the same reasons that G/A asked you to leave Tyrolia. :-) You
could always advance to Boh if they don't want you in Tyl. ;-)
If you must withdraw A Tyl, please move it to Ven. That at least
precludes an Austrian surprise attack, and it won't annoy anybody.
Rod
From - Tue Sep 25 18:14:13 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
Okay, I'm convinced that Russia and I should move against Germany even if
Italy does not move immediately against France (I think this will make it
more difficult for Italy later on, but that is Italy's decision).
I will move Tri-Tyr, Vie-Boh, Ser-Bul with support from Gre, Rum and
Bla.
I anticipate that Italy will move Ion-Aeg, Tyr-Ven and Nap-Ion.
Russia will move War-Sil, Rum S Ser-Bul, Bla S Ser-Bul and Sev S Bla.
In the Fall, I will move Gre-Aeg with support from Eas, while Italy moves
Ion-Gre, and Russia and I attack Munich (Austria gets it?).
Is this acceptable to everyone?
I agree it is best to get England on our side for now. Germany and
especially France are quite powerful, and we will need help initially.
Austria
From - Tue Sep 25 18:14:14 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria and Italy in 'gutsy':
> I will move Tri-Tyr, Vie-Boh, Ser-Bul with support from Gre, Rum and
> Bla.
> Russia will move War-Sil, Rum S Ser-Bul, Bla S Ser-Bul and Sev S Bla.
Sounds okay, I'm happy to make these moves and see you in
Germany Kieth.
> I anticipate that Italy will move Ion-Aeg, Tyr-Ven and Nap-Ion.
Shouldn't that be Ion - Eas?
> In the Fall, I will move Gre-Aeg with support from Eas, while Italy moves
> Ion-Gre, and Russia and I attack Munich (Austria gets it?).
Hopefully we'll be able to take Munich AND Berlin, but if
it's just Munich then I'm okay with letting Austria up to
supply center parity with myself.
> I agree it is best to get England on our side for now. Germany and
> especially France are quite powerful, and we will need help initially.
We'll pitch the German attack to him as a rescue effort
I think :)
Adam.........
From - Tue Sep 25 18:14:17 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I had not considered that you would want to move there. I would
> only do it if Italy provoked it, but I think this is not likely.
The only reason I would move to Tyrolia is to support one of you in case the
other attacks (and then, only if invited).
That's about it. Good luck with the east.
- Steve
From - Tue Sep 25 18:14:20 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Just a quick note; I still have to get some work done.
> I have been thinking about that. Confidentially, Italy and I have been
> talking about it too. I think we need his help for another year or
> so which could end up with him being that 6 or 7 center power but
> should also end up with him surrounded with any luck.
The only warning that I would give is that Keith is very good at playing
Austria; it's one of his favorite powers in no-press. I know this is a
press game (with a lot of press), but Keith has mastered the Austrian
tactics. He will *not* make a mistake.
> If you have an army or two spare then it's interesting to note
> you'll be a power who helps with that complete all-around cover.
You and Raine should definitely keep talking. If Raine leaves Tyrolia, I
will have much more latitude to slow down France and/or to contain Austria.
Perhaps, some sort of GIR cooperation is still possible.
If you have the chance, please write. The one thing I really need to know
is which way do you think Raine is headed? He's says he's moving to
Tyrolia, but I also understand he is still considering some sort of
Lepanto-like move. If you could help me out here, I would really appreciate
it.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Tue Sep 25 18:14:24 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> The only warning that I would give is that Keith is very good at playing
> Austria; it's one of his favorite powers in no-press. I know this is a
> press game (with a lot of press), but Keith has mastered the Austrian
> tactics. He will *not* make a mistake.
I'll try and keep my options open anyway.
> If you have the chance, please write.
Just about, I'll be in bed in a couple of hours.
> The one thing I really need to know
> is which way do you think Raine is headed? He's says he's moving to
> Tyrolia,
This seems unlikey to be the truth. Surely Tryolia would
have to hold to get to Tryolia. If that's what HE said,
rather than a mistake on your part, then he's probably
lying. Probably a mistake on your part though. You mean
Ven? That's what I understood he indended to do anyway.
I guess this is good news judging by what you said about
us working on Austria together if he was moving south.
Anyway, I better go wash this dye out of my hair
and get some food before bedtime. Talk after the
deadline.
Adam........
From - Tue Sep 25 18:14:28 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
This will be a short note; I only have a couple of things to say.
> I won't do that. I consider you as my longterm ally. I like to talk
> with you and I don't want to talk with you when you have headache.
That's very good to hear. I, too, consider you my longterm ally; we should
do quite well together. Let's make sure the headaches are somewhere else.
> I agree with you. I hope that in the long run you wouldn't build too
> many fleets. Let me play the shipmaker :-)
That's fine with me; I will build the armies and you can build the navies.
How many more would be okay with you? I will probably need at least one
more.
The only remaining thing we should discuss is what we should do with our
other units. You would probably need both fleets to move against Turkey or
Austria, but I would definitely like to see one of them heading towards
Spain. As for me, I will take Belgium and reposition my fleets.
Write if you can, but don't feel bad if you don't. I'm going to dinner now
and will check my email in a couple of hours. I think we are pretty well
set for this turn.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Tue Sep 25 20:55:10 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
Have you come to a decision regarding Ser-Rum?
Eric.
From - Tue Sep 25 20:55:11 2001
Broadcast message [from Elladan915 at netzero.net,Dip_Power at hotmail.com as
Turkey] in 'gutsy':
Nine hours until deadline, send out that last minute press!
From - Tue Sep 25 20:55:13 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Have you come to a decision regarding Ser-Rum?
Yes, I'm not moving Ser-Rum, I'm attacking Bulgaria instead. After that,
we will see. The situation is very complicated. If only I could tell
you. I'm not sure I'm making the best choice, but some of the
alternatives are far worse.
Austria
From - Tue Sep 25 20:55:15 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Yes, that's right I meant Ion-Eas. This is what you are planning, no?
Austria
From - Tue Sep 25 20:55:26 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Italy and England in 'gutsy':
Raine,
I don't know if, or how, my build may have influenced you, but rest
assured, if you move against me this turn, I will defend against you, and
sacrifice Centers to Austria to give him the size he needs to take you
out, once I'm gone. Tun-NAf, Ion-Tun, Nap-TyS, Tyl-Pie gives you
a shot at Mar this year, and a strong attack on Spa and Mar next year.
It's STILL not too late for EIT.
Sincerely,
Eric.
From - Tue Sep 25 20:55:29 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Have you heard from Steve recently? I wrote him yesterday
afternoon, but haven't gotten a reply, yet, which is unusual for Steve.
Of course, I haven't heard from anyone today.. I guess everyone's
decided that I'm already dead... 8-)
Eric the Turkey.
From - Tue Sep 25 20:55:33 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I imagine you're out drinking already, (Eric calculates the time
difference), or perhaps "staggering" home, 8-) but I thought I'd drop
you a note. I think I'm going to try to destroy F Bla, and move
Syr-Arm, so if you order Sev-Arm, that will bounce me, leaving me
positioned to defend against Italy, and eliminate your Fleet as a threat
to me. If you combine this with Rum S War-Gal, Mos-Ukr, we'll be
well positioned to take out Austria. What do you think?
Eric the Turk.
From - Tue Sep 25 20:55:30 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
I wrote you yesterday, but didn't get a response, so I figure that
either you're busy/away, or you figure that you're I'm already dead,
and just don't know it, yet. 8-) Drop me a line when you get the
chance.
"I'm not quite dead, yet!"
Eric.
From - Tue Sep 25 20:55:36 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
Brent,
Nothing new to report. Still haven't heard from Steve. Raine asked
me how I thought the west would split, and I told him that I didn't know.
It looks as though I'm facing AIR, but we'll see what happens, I guess.
Eric.
From - Tue Sep 25 20:55:38 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> > That opens the possibility of you just ordering Lon - Wal
>
> That's an intriguing possibility. I'll consider it.
Just so you know, I'm not trying to sucker you here. Brent doesn't trust
either one of us enough to try that kind of finesse.
Now we get into some shaky territory. Bear with me here, I'm trying hard to
understand what your thinking. You're press was very direct BTW; I just
need to catch up:
> Italy is now asking if it's OK with me if he moves to Pie. I'm going
> to give him an emphatic "NO", but just in case he gets any ideas, it
> might be prudent for me to move Par-Gas so I can cover Mar in the Fall
> (without moving Spa-Mar and possibly not taking Spa). Please confirm
> that you *will* do Mun-Bur, then I can just bounce you with A Pic
> while doing Par-Gas.
OK. That makes sense. A couple of things:
1) Obviously, I don't mind it if Tyrolia moves to Piedmont. From my point
of view, that keeps you honest and it gets him out of my hair. Besides,
you'll have the Portuguese unit ready to bounce if needed. If you want to
order Par - Gas, I undertand; makes sense to me.
2) I will definitely do Mun - Bur. You are free to "double-bounce" or
bounce with just one unit or whatever.
> Or if you're sure you wouldn't mind Pic S Par-Bur, I could do that,
> which gives me the option of either covering Mar or moving Bur-Pic
> when I convoy A Pic. Let me know your feelings on this.
I would definitely prefer it if you didn't support yourself into Burgundy
especially if you encourage Raine to stay in Tyrolia. At this point in the
game, I really can't afford to have Munich surrounded like that. If you
feel you must do it in order to protect Marseilles, I'd understand, but it
might strain our negotiations a bit next year. I hope that makes sense.
Regarding the convoy, I'm all for it. We'll need an army over there to
eliminate England; I just wish it was mine. I know you "pooh-poohed" it in
your last letter, but "first blood" makes a big difference in who gets what
centers. Your offer of Belgium was very important for our relationship;
that was a shrewd move.
That's about it. From now on, I'll only drink the good beer. :)
Write if you want to, but I probably won't be back on-line for a few hours.
Good luck.
- Steve
P.S. If you have something I really must know, I'll check my press in the
morning before the orders are resolved. Thanks
From - Tue Sep 25 20:55:40 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
[ Raine asked me how I thought the west would split, and I told him that I
didn't know.]
Should've said that EG was a lock. That's what I'm trying to convince
him! =)
[It looks as though I'm facing AIR, but we'll see what happens, I guess.]
Anti-witch game huh? Well, we'll just have to recover from that and make
a miraculous come from behind 2 way.
Brent
From - Tue Sep 25 20:55:45 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
OK, so here's the latest from my end. Germany has pledged his allegiance,
provided that I move as planned this turn, and that you attack France.
Barring that, he figures he's better off helping France against me and then
convincing him to go South, which shouldn't be too hard if you're off trying
to pick up your one center in Turkey. So, your choice. A battle against
France that has more potential for centers, more allies, and proof that
you're a trustworthy person, or an attack on Turkey that might get you one
and leaves you as a sitting duck for a much stronger France. Not that I'm
biased or anything... =)
Brent
From - Tue Sep 25 20:55:54 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
> Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> [ Raine asked me how I thought the west would split, and I told him that I
> didn't know.]
> Should've said that EG was a lock. That's what I'm trying to convince
> him! =)
I considered that, but figured the threat of a strong France might make him
more likely to head west since I'm occupied.
Eric.
From - Tue Sep 25 21:47:37 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
I hope you're doing well. Thanks for your letter.
I just wanted to write before the moves are resolved tomorrow morning. Here
are a couple of my thoughts:
> Here's our disagreement. You're looking at my tactical needs, and
> that is a fairly accurate account of them. ...(snip)... But my biggest
> disagreement, and I think the source of our misunderstanding, is that
> I have a goal which is MUCH more important than either of those
> two. And that is to find a reliable ally.
Okay, now I think I understand you a bit better. Thanks for making that
clear; most of my games are against tacticians. However, I am just as
willing to talk strategy as the next man.
I'm going to be brutally honest here; I hope that's appreciated, Brent.
Long-term, I don't believe in alliances; plain and
simple...(pause)...(everyone still breathing?)...that doesn't mean I don't
trust other players or that I don't work with other players; it just means
that Diplomacy is a game of 6 on 1. From your press, I suspect you agree.
Back to your statement. When you say "to find a reliable ally", I hear "to
find somebody I can stab" UNLESS (sorry about the shout) the tactical
situation is addressed with candor. So far, you and I are doing pretty
well, but we could do better.
Here's an example of an issue requiring more candor:
> I'm just concerned that we've gone from a goal of being even at 5 centers,
> to a point where your 6th center is a need but my 4th center is a want.
>From where I sit, the most important aspect of the tactical situation is
that you lost London and are on the defensive. I want to work with you to
regain London because I don't want to see a French run-away, but I need you
to recognize that the tactical situation (and thus the strategic
possibilities) have changed since S'01.
Right now, my need is a sixth center just like your need is a fourth. We
both want more, but will have to take our time. I hope that's okay with
you, Brent.
I'll be here for a few more hours if you'd like to talk. Otherwise, I have
submitted the orders we discussed.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Tue Sep 25 21:47:39 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Master in 'gutsy':
===***===***===***===
Gutsy - EOY 1901
First off, no matter what the result, I'd like to thank the other players.
High JPDR games (like any other game with the best players) are a real
challenge. I'm honored to have this opportunity. Thanks everyone for
playing and thanks, Roger, for mastering. If there is further interest,
I'll master the next game. As long as I get in the one after that. Fair
enough? :)
Here goes:
My driving goal for the first year was to inject a sense of urgency into the
game. I wanted to paint the game as the winner of the Triangle vs the
winner of the Square. The general theme in my press was that good players
want to resolve their part of the board quickly. In my press to the west I
added, "we better be ready when a pair comes out of the east".
In the east, I was far less focused. I told Keith I would discourage the
juggernaut, but once I saw Eric and Adam get tangled up, I tried encouraging
the juggernaut figuring that any press to R or T that sounded pro-Juggy
would isolate Keith and Raine.
My hope was that an increased sense of urgency would make some players
commit prematurely. Specifically, I hoped to have one of E or F in the
channel and one of R or T in the Black Sea. Both happened; lucky me. :)
Also, by encouraging regional resolution first, I also hoped to keep Russia
on his side of the stalemate line. I figured that in all reality, the west
*wouldn't* be resolved quickly so I would probably have to slow down or
perhaps switch sides.
Here's where Italy came in. At the last minute, Raine and I arranged a
bounce in Munich which allowed me to de-commit in the west. Rod took London
and Belgium stayed unoccupied. Plus, I kept the Ruhr and could build in
Munich.
At year's end, I am very optimistic about GI (and maybe R) figuring that I
can prop up Brent and attack Rod. I still hope to resolve the triangle
before Russia stabs, but we'll see.
That's it.
- Steve (Germany in Gutsy)
From - Tue Sep 25 21:47:43 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
Yep, I was busy; I hadn't forgotten about you nor do I think you're in that
much trouble. Maybe a bit, but nothing like Brent. Count your small
blessings, right? :)
Since we both are short on time, I'll just hit the main points:
1) Something Keith wrote made me think Tyr - Mun was in the works. He
doesn't say much; I had to read between the lines. He denies he tipped me
off, but what else would I expect?
2) Brent has never offered me support into Sweden. When I requested it, I
got the cold shoulder. To hear that that type of news made it back to you
in that form is most annoying.
3) Yes, Adam made a huge mistake with his builds. Turkey can always move
his fleets out to the Med (not that you would of course), but what can
Russia do with his? Unfortunately, you may be the victim of Adam's mistake;
I suspect Bulgaria is at risk.
The big thing we now have in common is Raine. Any word from him that I
might find helpful. Last I heard, he was leaving Tyrolia but Rod doesn't
want him in the Piedmont. I bet he's looking for a fifth center. Have you
and he talked about Greece?
Write if you can (assuming you want to).
- Steve
From - Wed Sep 26 17:16:44 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> Yes, I'm not moving Ser-Rum, I'm attacking Bulgaria instead.
Well, thanks for the heads-up...
> After that, we will see. The situation is very complicated.
> If only I could tell you.
I still don't see why you can't. I'm getting information from Russia
and
Italy, not to mention the Western Triangle, so it seems that you're just
hurting yourself by not engaging me in a dialog here.
> I'm not sure I'm making the best choice, but some of the
> alternatives are far worse.
Do you really think RI atacking you now, while I'm around to support
you would be worse than trying to defend against them by yourself?
Eric.
From - Wed Sep 26 17:16:46 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> 2) I will definitely do Mun - Bur. You are free to "double-bounce" or
> bounce with just one unit or whatever.
OK. Thanks for the confirmation.
> I would definitely prefer it if you didn't support yourself into Burgundy
> especially if you encourage Raine to stay in Tyrolia.
I did not encourage him to stay in Tyl. I suggested that if he wants to
withdraw therefrom that he move to Ven rather than Pie.
> At this point in the
> game, I really can't afford to have Munich surrounded like that.
I understand. I *think* Raine intends to pull out of Tyl, but I'm not
sure. I'll just bounce in Bur.
> Your offer of Belgium was very important for our relationship;
> that was a shrewd move.
An alliance works best when we're both happy. I'm sure you'll have the
opportunity to repay the favor some day. :-)
Rod
From - Wed Sep 26 17:16:45 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
> Have you heard from Steve recently?
Yes - about 30 minutes after I received your message.
Rod
From - Wed Sep 26 17:16:49 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
[I have little experience with France. This is my first PBEM game as
France.]
Interesting. I've only played them once in PBEM, my very first game. I
survived to a 3-way draw, which was pretty impressive to me at the time.
[I do appreciate the value of a long-term alliance, but in
highly-rated games I tend to be a little more paranoid/cutthroat and
focused on getting an immediate edge.]
That does seem to be the general consensus around the board. Too bad I
didn't figure that out until now. This being my first high-rated game, I
guess I wasn't ready for the change.
[Of course. And I'll try to prevent that. It will be interesting to
see how it all works out.]
Indeed. If it makes you feel any better, this whole experience has soured
me more to Steven than you. Its clear that his offers to help me are only
because he sees that you're a bigger threat at the moment. As long as the
two of us are fighting, he can make sure that he keeps the upper hand, and
always gets to be the on picking his alliance. I've gotten kind of a
similar impression from you, but haven't really gotten to test it out yet,
so right now you're a bit higher on my list. Of course, you're also
attacking me, which doesn't help matters out a whole lot.
Anyways, I hope we can get some sort of discussion going after the turn
processes about ways to take Germany out of his current position of control
over the West. I think you and I have gotten off on the wrong foot ever
since that first misdirected e-mail, and that others are now taking
advantage of that. I don't appreciate being taken advantage of. Until next
season,
Brent
From - Wed Sep 26 17:16:51 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> I [don't] think you're in that much trouble. Maybe a bit, but nothing
> like Brent. Count your small blessings, right? :)
Hmm, I see AIR vs. T, unless Raine heads west, which is unlikely.
> 1) Something Keith wrote made me think Tyr - Mun was in the works.
Raine claimed you proposed the bounce.
> 2) Brent has never offered me support into Sweden. When I requested it,
I
> got the cold shoulder. To hear that that type of news made it back to you
> in that form is most annoying.
Umm, well, I may have mis-spoke. He asked me if I wanted you and he
to attack Russia in and I said I felt that would help Me. In the course of
our
conversation, I got the impression that he had agreed to offer you support
to Swe.
> I suspect Bulgaria is at risk.
Yeah, my only real hope is that Adam and Keith both try for it, and it
holds as a beleagured garrison.
> The big thing we now have in common is Raine. Any word from him that I
> might find helpful. Last I heard, he was leaving Tyrolia but Rod doesn't
> want him in the Piedmont. I bet he's looking for a fifth center. Have
you
> and he talked about Greece?
He claimed he offered you a plan to attack France, but you weren't
interested.
He asked for my opinion of the West, (I told him I don't know.), but didn't
mention the East.
Eric.
From - Wed Sep 26 17:16:53 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
Hmmm. (That's a hmmm with respect, not consternation.) :)
Somehow...key pieces of info have made their way to Constantinople. You're
pretty good at this game, you know.
I thought long and hard about how to answer this letter, but I decided to
just respond point by point. You pretty much know what's going on
everywhere anyhow:
> Hmm, I see AIR vs. T, unless Raine heads west, which is unlikely.
Yep, that's how it looks, but looks are deceiving. Bulgaria is probably
toast, but as long as you don't face fleets in both East and Aeg you can
"turtle" for a long, long time.
> Umm, well, I may have mis-spoke. He asked me if I wanted you and he
> to attack Russia in and I said I felt that would help Me. In the course
of
> our conversation, I got the impression that he had agreed to offer you
> support to Swe.
That makes so much more sense to me. Thanks for the admission.
Just so you know, a Russian attack is out for now. I really can't afford to
have Adam as an enemy quite yet. I hope you understand. Soon maybe, but
not yet.
> Yeah, my only real hope is that Adam and Keith both try for it, and it
> holds as a beleagured garrison.
I don't think that's going to happen. I'm not sure what AR have ordered,
but... (checks board) ... (hits self on head) ... shoot(!) I guess that is
possible. I gotta pay more attention to the big picture. :) Good luck
there; attack the Black Sea and re-take Armenia. That's the best move I
see.
> He claimed he offered you a plan to attack France, but you
> weren't interested.
Just to set the record straight: He offered, I accepted; might happen,
might not. :)
It's late, but you can write if you'd like. I'll be here for a little bit
longer.
Thanks for writing so often; I really do appreciate it.
- Steve
From - Wed Sep 26 17:16:55 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I want to be the good guy to everyone. I know it isn't possible, one have
to attack somewhere. When I thought about the move to Pie I wasn't
planning an attack. To keep my relations up to decent level I have to move
away from Tyrolia. That leaves Venice or Piedmond. Rod, we have been able
to concentrate both on our own directions. There has been no problems
between us. If I decide to move to Pie I encourage you to look at my moves
by other units. In case I move Tyr-Pie I am not against you. I hope you
understand that when I did not attack Austria at the first place it meant
that I need to be in good terms with him. I want to be the good guy. So I
need to put things in order. You are most likely listening to your western
triangle ally more than me. The same goes with me too, in east.
I have not decided yet if I'll move to Pie but if I move there please do
not paint the devil on the wall.
> I would disapprove of any move to Pie. Pie is adjacent to my home
> center Mar, and an Italian army in Pie is really of little use in
> any endeavor except hostilities with France. It's not that I don't
> trust you - it's just that I tend to get paranoid in highly-rated
> games, and then I do irrational things. I would much rather avoid
> that.
Maybe we can make a bounce in Marseilles then? It would leave Mar open for
your build. I wouldn't like to make you mad and then let you build to Mar,
would I? Let's see the moves 1st. I need to make the decision soon.
> If you must withdraw A Tyl, please move it to Ven. That at least
> precludes an Austrian surprise attack, and it won't annoy anybody.
You know it is a pain to have home SC's next to each other. I need to
think ...
Raine (who just woke up and should make decisions)
From - Wed Sep 26 17:16:56 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Russia has been suggesting Lepanto for a long time. So it means he is not
worried about an Italian army in Turkey. So moving Tun-Naf would ruin my
convoy to Turkey. I hope you take a look to Italian position at the
moment. There is no sense to attack Austria. You are too powerful to me.
I have more to gains elsewhere than your supplies.
> You can take Greece. This was part of our arrangement since very early
> in the game.
Thanks. I will take in fall. Let's look at the map then and decide what to
do.
Will you consider Tun-Naf, though? In the Fall you will
> probably need to support Gre-Aeg with Eas. A convoy would be good
> footing against Russia (if it succeeds), but Russia might not approve
> it. You can work this out with him. If it turns out that convoying to
> Turkey in the Fall is not a possibility, then will you consider moving
> Tun-Naf just for my peace of mind?
I will give you the peace of mind in that case. Let's look at how the
moves goes and then talk about it more.
> Do you want me in Tyrolia at all? I am ordering Tri-Tyr and Vie-Boh
> now. We can abandon the Germany plan if you want. It is just that I
> have nowhere to expand to other than Germany (or you or Russia) once I
> take Bulgaria. It might be better for me to wait, anyway. If Russia
> moved War-Gal I could be in trouble.
I have no problem with you in Tyrolia as long as you don't move to Tri at
the same time. If I were in your position I would take it easy and look
how things will turn out. You are not in a hurry. I hope Russia is not
doing anything as stupid as War-Gal. I haven't heard anything like that.
So I am surprised if he moves there unless you have agreed a bounce in
there.
Raine
From - Wed Sep 26 17:16:58 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Yes, that's right I meant Ion-Eas. This is what you are planning, no?
Yes.
From - Wed Sep 26 17:16:59 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria and Russia in
'gutsy':
Dear Allies,
Keith this is important!! I hope you are there to listen before deadline.
> I will move Tri-Tyr, Vie-Boh, Ser-Bul with support from Gre, Rum and
> Bla.
Please, leave Tri open. You do not mention your army in Bud. It would be a
pain to me if you would move to Tyr _and_ Tri.
> I anticipate that Italy will move Ion-Aeg, Tyr-Ven and Nap-Ion.
>
> Russia will move War-Sil, Rum S Ser-Bul, Bla S Ser-Bul and Sev S Bla.
>
> In the Fall, I will move Gre-Aeg with support from Eas, while Italy moves
> Ion-Gre, and Russia and I attack Munich (Austria gets it?).
Munich is yours. Yesterday when I went to sleep I was under impression
that Gre-Aeg. Now that you are not moving to Aeg it makes me wonder if I
should take the risk and move there.
> Is this acceptable to everyone?
Yes. I am still thinking of Ion-Aeg, though. There is a possibility of
bounce by Turkey but let's look at the other alternative Turkey would end
up to Aeg otherwise. Hmm, I would appreciate your replies now but I guess
the time difference is too much. I have set wait.
I also thought about Gre S Ion-Aeg. You might not get Bul then in spring
but you would get it for sure in fall. I could support you from Aeg.
I'll wait for you replies and I guess I'll flip a coin of Aeg/Eas.
Raine
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:01 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: S1902M Wed Sep 26 2001 20:00:00 +1200
Diplomacy game 'gutsy' is waiting for Russia's orders.
This power will be considered abandoned and free for takeover
if orders are not received by Sat Sep 29 2001 19:00:00 +1200.
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:02 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Master in 'gutsy':
Hi Roger,
I forgot the end of the year statement. Better later than never, right.
This is a short one and concentrates mainly on east but nevertheless:
Spring:
I somehow managed to worry Keith with my opening mail, I guess. Keith's
opening press was straight down to business and I was anticipating more
like introducing mail 1st. Keith was so silen that I got worried. Eric was
almost as silent as Keith, 'Troubles!'. Lucky for me that Adam was a
talkative kind. Steve was the most silent one.
My aim was to get Turkey to move to Black Sea and to prepare Lepanto with
Austria's help. Adam was co-operating fine but I was unsure of Keith.
Brent proposed ETI triple alliance. I still don't get it. What was I going
to get from it? It is so obvious that Eric wants to prevent Lepanto. I
would have agreed to EIT if Eric would have managed to move to Black
Sea.
I decided to move to Tyrolia to get Steve's attention and to keep the
doors open to every direction. I wasn't sure of RT but just in case of RT
I would have continued to Boh.
Fall:
I was still unsure of Keith. He was too silent. Steve noticed me :-) It
turned out that Steve is a true diplomatic. The bounce in Black Sea
practically ruined ETI. I saw Eric's demands for Ion-Tun more like
benefiting Turkey than EIT. Italy would have closed the door to Lepanto.
Eric's fall moves were amazing. I think he overreacted and I think he
wanted to effect my build to be in Rom or Ven but my reaction was the
opposite. I really wanted to build a fleet Naples 'cause of Eric acts and
talks. I want to say is that I it _was_ my intension to head west but RAI
started to talk about quick fall of Turkey and I liked that idea. There
was more to gain from RAI than ETI. I realize the risk that AT might
eventually ally.
Winter:
Building a fleet in Naples gave the opportunity to Lepanto and the
surprise element still exists if I would have turned against France like
ET wanted. Now it was only a marginal chance that I would move to west.
Raine made this in a hurry just before S1902M deadline :-)
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:04 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
I think Ion-Eas is best. This is guaranteed, and it will allow me to
move Gre-Aeg with support from Eas in the Fall. If you move Ion-Aeg and
it fails, then our plan will be backed up a year. Even if it works, we
need your fleet in Eas to be sure of crushing Turkey in the Spring. If
you move to Aeg, there is no place for my Gre fleet to go.
Please move Ion-Eas. This is the best move.
Austria
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:05 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: S1902M Wed Sep 26 2001 20:00:00 +1200
Movement results for Spring of 1902. (gutsy.004)
Austria: Army Serbia -> Bulgaria.
Austria: Army Vienna -> Bohemia.
Austria: Fleet Greece SUPPORT Army Serbia -> Bulgaria.
Austria: Army Trieste -> Tyrolia.
Austria: Army Budapest -> Vienna.
England: Army Yorkshire -> Wales. (*bounce*)
England: Fleet Norway -> North Sea. (*bounce*)
England: Fleet North Sea -> English Channel. (*bounce*)
France: Army Portugal -> Spain.
France: Army Picardy -> Burgundy. (*bounce*)
France: Fleet London -> Wales. (*bounce*)
France: Army Paris -> Gascony.
France: Fleet Brest -> English Channel. (*bounce*)
Germany: Army Holland -> Belgium.
Germany: Army Ruhr SUPPORT Army Munich -> Burgundy.
Germany: Fleet Denmark -> North Sea. (*bounce*)
Germany: Army Munich -> Burgundy.
Germany: Fleet Kiel -> Holland.
Italy: Army Tunis HOLD.
Italy: Army Tyrolia -> Piedmont.
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea -> Aegean Sea.
Italy: Fleet Naples -> Ionian Sea.
Russia: Army Rumania SUPPORT Austrian Army Serbia -> Bulgaria.
Russia: Army Warsaw -> Silesia.
Russia: Fleet Black Sea SUPPORT Austrian Army Serbia -> Bulgaria. (*cut*)
Russia: Fleet Sweden HOLD.
Russia: Fleet Sevastopol SUPPORT Fleet Black Sea.
Russia: Army Moscow -> Warsaw.
Turkey: Army Bulgaria SUPPORT Austrian Army Serbia -> Rumania. (*void, dislodged*)
Turkey: Army Syria -> Armenia.
Turkey: Fleet Constantinople -> Black Sea. (*bounce*)
Turkey: Fleet Ankara SUPPORT Fleet Constantinople -> Black Sea.
The following units were dislodged:
The Turkish Army in Bulgaria with no valid retreats was destroyed.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Movement for Fall of 1902.
The deadline for orders will be Tue Oct 02 2001 20:00:00 +1200.
