Spring 1901
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From - Wed Sep 05 20:47:54 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: S1901M Wed Sep 12 2001 20:00:00 +1200
You have been selected as Master in game 'gutsy' of Diplomacy.
The following players are in this game:
Master: rkyonkoski at att.net
Austria: keith at alumni.caltech.edu
England: bwarner34 at home.com
France: rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com
Germany: scse at maine.rr.com
Italy: rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi
Russia: pre at dalliance.net
Turkey: Elladan915 at netzero.net,Dip_Power at hotmail.com
Observer: dvw21 at phy.cam.ac.uk
Observer: GrayKnight525 at aol.com
Observer: dan at insidecorner.com
Observer: kolb41 at earthlink.net
Observer: celeste712 at hotmail.com
Observer: sverre_haga at yahoo.com
Observer: observer at floc.net
Observer: higginw at towers.com
Starting position for Spring of 1901.
Austria: Army Vienna.
Austria: Army Budapest.
Austria: Fleet Trieste.
England: Fleet London.
England: Fleet Edinburgh.
England: Army Liverpool.
France: Army Paris.
France: Army Marseilles.
France: Fleet Brest.
Germany: Army Berlin.
Germany: Army Munich.
Germany: Fleet Kiel.
Italy: Army Rome.
Italy: Army Venice.
Italy: Fleet Naples.
Russia: Army Moscow.
Russia: Army Warsaw.
Russia: Fleet St Petersburg (south coast).
Russia: Fleet Sevastopol.
Turkey: Army Constantinople.
Turkey: Army Smyrna.
Turkey: Fleet Ankara.
The deadline for the first orders is Wed Sep 12 2001 20:00:00 +1200.
From - Wed Sep 05 20:47:57 2001
Broadcast message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia in 'gutsy':
Hello everyone. Since we're playing non-gunboat
in a high JDPR only game, here's the interesting
numbers in JDPR order:
Turkey: Elladan915 at netzero.net,Dip_Power at hotmail.com
JDPR 1505 in 34 games.
Austria: keith at alumni.caltech.edu
JPDR 1490 in 108 games.
France: rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com
JPDR 1442 in 19 games.
Germany: scse at maine.rr.com
JPDR 1418 in 48 games.
Italy: rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi
JDPR 1357 in 14 games.
England: bwarner34 at home.com
JPDR 1281 in 5 games.
Russia: pre at dalliance.net
JDPR 1237 in 5 games.
Looks like I get to be the lowest ranked. Oh well,
at least I presumably won't be attacked as a big
threat. I'll write to you all presently...
Adam........
From - Wed Sep 05 20:47:58 2001
Broadcast message from ehunter at state.pa.us as Turkey in 'gutsy':
Interesting pieces of trivia you discover from whogame:
At least two members of the "Top-50" active JDPR list live/work
in Rochester, NY, USA (Keith and Roger), and two live in
central Pennsylvania, (Rod and I). (Hmmm, I've got two cousins
living in the Rochester area... This almost calls for a road-trip,
and a F2F game...8-)
Eric.
From - Wed Sep 05 20:47:59 2001
Broadcast message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France in
'gutsy':
> Since we're playing non-gunboat
> in a high JDPR only game, here's the interesting
> numbers in JDPR order:
...
The theory is that in non-gunboat the course of the game is determined
by the identity of the players, right? So I guess it's destiny that
we first eliminate that shark Turkey and his newbie lackey Russia.
> Looks like I get to be the lowest ranked.
Take heart - that just means that your rating won't drop nearly as
much as Eric's after we pummel you both.
;-)
Rod
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:03 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Eric,
How do you normally feel about playing the Turk? You
certainly seem to have a lot more email games under
your belt than I have, presumably with a fair number
of solo's to judge by your JDPR.
Did you realize you'd be the higest rated player in
the game? I ask since I wondered if that's why you had
put Turkey high on your preference list, for it's
defensible position.
I realise that there are essentially two ways of
playing a game when you know something about the
reputations of the players. Either you can try and
knock out the good players to improve your chance
of being the best player come the end game,
or you can ally with them since they'd probably be
the most likely to come up with good plans and spot
any flaws in your own and actually write some
press of course. I tend to prefer the latter, if
only because I'm known as the best player of my
FTF friends and suffer from the former occasionally.
Early days to do really plan these things, but a
juggernaught might be fun to play. I've stopped a
few before now but haven't watched one really crush
the board. I understand that generally Russia does
slightly better than Turkey from the arrangement
but to judge by our JDPR's at least, you should be
able to compensate for that easily enough.
In case it makes any difference, I'm in London, UK
so my timezone is BST at the moment (GMT+1), so
presumably we'll do most of our talking in the
evenings here/mornings in the US.
Have you played with anyone else here before? I
haven't, so far as I can rememeber at least.
Adam........
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:05 2001
Broadcast message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey in 'gutsy':
>Broadcast message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia in 'gutsy':
>
>here's the interesting numbers in JDPR order:
>
>Turkey: JDPR 1505 in 34 games.
>Austria: JPDR 1490 in 108 games.
>France: JPDR 1442 in 19 games.
>Germany: JPDR 1418 in 48 games.
>Italy: JDPR 1357 in 14 games.
>England: JPDR 1281 in 5 games.
>Russia: JDPR 1237 in 5 games.
*cough* I feel constrained to admit that Doug is
behind on updating the JDPR, and once my five losses in
the NoPress Tournament get factored in it will be more
like: Turkey: JDPR 1405 in 39 games.
(So, everyone pile on Austria! *wink*)
Eric.
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:06 2001
Broadcast message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France in
'gutsy':
> At least two members of the "Top-50" active JDPR list
> live/work in Rochester, NY, USA (Keith and Roger)
Since Keith is bound to be the master's favorite, it might be prudent
to take him out first, then finish off the high-low JDPR pair. Then
the Americans will gang up on the Fin. Finally, Stephen and I stab
that young whippersnapper who's playing England, and the game ends as
a FG two-way.
You heard it here first!
Rod
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:07 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
We're the only two players who are in Europe then
I guess, and only a couple of months apart in age.
I wonder if that gives us enough in common to
start making fairly long range plans yet?
The last game I started I suggested that Italy
convince Austria to go Lapanto against Tukey
with a little help from me, before Italy and I
squished Austria between us once the Turk was
down. That time the plan failed because the
Italian player was dumb as all hell and just
dived straight into Tri and spoiled everything.
With Turkey being the obvious candidate for
any SharkHunters that may be around it seems
it could be easier to try the plan this time
around.
If you and Austria took care of most of the
Turk Work then I could even send a unit to two
north to try and make sure the Western Triangle
didn't clean up one of their corner before we
were quite ready.
Very early days to be making concrete proposals,
but I just wondered how you'd react.
Adam.........
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:08 2001
Broadcast message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia in 'gutsy':
What is this? I barely have time to write to two
of my nearest neighbours and suddenly France has
thrown me into a CareBear alliance with Turkey.
Is a Juggernaughty That powerful? Doesn't anyone
else want to pick me up as a lacky? I serve a
wonderful chilled champaigne and buttle better
than the next guy.
Oh, and in the interests of honesty, I should point
out that I scored a solo in a payola game on the
DPjudge since the ratings were updated too. Not
sure if Payola effects a JDPR though.
Adam.......
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:10 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
>Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>How do you normally feel about playing the Turk? You
>certainly seem to have a lot more email games under
>your belt than I have, presumably with a fair number
>of solo's to judge by your JDPR.
I only have 3 complete games as Turkey though,
(and 3 solos, (AGT) for that matter), so I don't
really have a set in stone plan.
>Did you realize you'd be the highest rated player in
>the game? I ask since I wondered if that's why you had
>put Turkey high on your preference list, for it's
>defensible position.
No, I chose Turkey because I haven't played it
much, and it's been a while since the last time.
>Either you can try and knock out the good players or you can ally with them
>since they'd probably be
>the most likely to come up with good plans
I would argue that the 15 point difference
between Keith and I is statistically insignificant,
and given that his 1490 rating is over 108 games,
I'd say he's the class of the field.
>Early days to do really plan these things, but a
>juggernaught might be fun to play. I've stopped a
>few before now but haven't watched one really crush
>the board. I understand that generally Russia does
>slightly better than Turkey from the arrangement
>but to judge by our JDPR's at least, you should be
>able to compensate for that easily enough.
The Juggernaut can work as long as Russia can
avoid having EG take Swe and StP. For it to work
long-term, you'd have to build Fleets in StP, and
take Germany, Scandinavia and England, while I took
Austria, the Balkans, and Italy.
>In case it makes any difference, I'm in London, UK
>so my timezone is BST at the moment (GMT+1), so
>presumably we'll do most of our talking in the
>evenings here/mornings in the US.
Not a problem, I'm usually up early.
>Have you played with anyone else here before? I
>haven't, so far as I can remember at least.
Possibly Keith, but I'm not sure.
Eric.
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:14 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
Keith,
It seems that France has already decided that I'm
Eric's "lackey", which comes as a surprise to me
as I'm sure it does to Eric. I wonder if perhaps
the best way to scotch these rumours would be
to remove the master in that relationship? Just
wondering how much of a Shark Hunter you might
turn out to be.
In the shorter term, of course, we have to decide
what we want to do about Gal/Rum. Obviously I'd
very much like to liberate the Rumanian people
as soon as possible and put a Russian command
center there by the end of the year. Galacia
however seems to me to be completely content
as it is, empty of all arms. Perhaps we could
make an agreement to keep it that way?
What are your initial thoughts?
Adam............
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:15 2001
Broadcast message from ehunter at state.pa.us as Turkey in 'gutsy':
>Broadcast message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia in 'gutsy':
>
>Turkey: JDPR 1505 in 34 games.
>Austria: JPDR 1490 in 108 games.
>France: JPDR 1442 in 19 games.
>Germany: JPDR 1418 in 48 games.
>Italy: JDPR 1357 in 14 games.
>England: JPDR 1281 in 5 games.
>Russia: JDPR 1237 in 5 games.
Grand Vizier Jafar dons his robes, wondering who
replaced his traditional black one with this one
featuring alternating red and white concentric rings
surrounding a small black circle. Jafar consults his
tomes, trying to learn the significance of this
symbol of power.
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:17 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
How's it going? :-) I'm really looking forward to this game. I
played in a high-rated game (as England) once before, and I thought
I was doing alright, until it became apparent that *I* was the sucker!
Usually I do well with the witches, but when you're swimming with the
sharks I guess it doesn't matter. Anyway, it was an excellent
learning experience for me, and I expect this game to be at least as
much fun.
How do you want to handle the Channel? I've found that most people
like a DMZ, because they feel that a bounce is a "wasted move".
However, if you're feeling paranoid and want to bounce then I'd be
happy to oblige. Just let me know.
Maybe we could form a Western Triple with the German and take
everybody by surprise. What do you think?
Rod
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:18 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Stephen,
I'm never quite sure what to say before the game starts. Some people
like to craft a grand scheme to conquer the world right off the bat,
others prefer to wait and see what happens. I suppose at the very
least we should both agree to stay out of Bur, eh? Or if you have
nothing else to do with Mun and prefer a bounce, that's fine too.
Just let me know.
If you're in favor of a grand scheme, we could propose a Western
Triple to England. However, the WT can be risky for Germany, so if
you want to veto it, I won't argue.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Rod
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:19 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
Brent,
I guess we should stick together as the two
relative newbies in this sharkpool. With
Eric and Keith on my south and south-west
borders I suspect I should try and concentrate
on the south of the map as much as possible,
though of course it's very early to tell.
For this reason, not to mention the cause of
Peace and Harmony, I propose that we split
Scandanavia 50/50, Nwy to you and Swe to me.
Once we've managed that, the less time we
have to spend worrying about the area the
better as far as I'm concerned. Maybe even
demilitarizing the place would be a good
plan if we can convince Germany to leave
Denmark as well.
Having said that, the last thing I'd want is
to see England overtaken by one of the sharks
leaving me completely surrounded by them so
if you need any help I'll do my best. Just
yell.
Any news from the West? I assume France has
written since he's found time to Broadcast.
I haven't heard from anyone except the
brodcast's yet.
Adam........
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:20 2001
Broadcast message from brent at epicsystems.com as England in 'gutsy':
With all these JDPR stats getting kicked around, its only fair to
mention that I have a yet to be updated solo in a Vermont Group game
that included at least one player with a rating over 1500, not to
mention the fact that I'm in two other games right now that will of
course both be solos as well. =)
But assuming we are going for a "King of the Mountain" strategy of
beating on whoever is on top, you can still consider me to be second
from the bottom.
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:21 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
I'd like to propose long-lasting peace between our two nations. I
will stay out of the Med and focus on England and Germany, and I hope
that you will agree to concentrate on the east. If we don't have to
worry about each other, I believe that we can each be more effective.
Please let me know if you hear anything interesting from our mutual
neighbor Germany. I will keep you informed as well.
I look forward to your reply.
Rod
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:22 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
Keith,
How's it going? I suppose that you and I don't have much to talk
about right now, but we should definitely stay in touch. We have
some common neighbors, and it probably won't be too long before we
have an opportunity to work together.
I sent Italy a message and naturally asked him to move east. Of
course, you'd prefer that he move against Turkey rather than you,
so if we each suggest that he go after Turkey, hopefully he'll agree.
Please let me know if you get any wind of him moving west, and I'll
be sure to contact you if I hear anything alarming from him or your
other neighbors. Hopefully we can share some information for our
mutual benefit. :-)
Rod
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:24 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hello. I would be most happy to see you move Ank-Bla. There's nothing
that an Austrian player fears more than an R-T alliance. I know that our
geography can be a problem in long-term cooperation between us, but if
you want to try, I am sure we can make it work. Russia would have to be
fooled into thinking he was allied with one of us.
Austria
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:28 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hello, I hope that we will have a game-long alliance. I certainly cannot
attack you early, or I will crumble under Russia and/or Turkey. If you
attack me early, then you might have an initial success, but Turkey will
come back to haunt you, likely having gotten the majority of my supply
centers.
Since we both know this, I'm going to trust you implicitly. I hope you
feel the same way about me. My first objective is to try to make sure
that there is no R-T alliance. Then, since Turkey is the one that poses
the most danger to us both, perhaps we can maneuver to strip him of
Bulgaria and to get rid of some of his teeth. One he is under control
like this, it is fairly easy to contain him, so we can turn our concerns
elsewhere if Russia or France get to be too powerful too quickly.
What do you think?
Austria
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:30 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
It is always good to keep in touch with the neighbors of our neighbors.
The better off each of us is, the better off the other will be. I will
of course encourage Italy not to attack you.
Good luck with England and/or Germany.
Austria
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:31 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
Stephen,
Well, it seems I've got the two biggest sharks
hovering around the southern borders of my country.
That can't be good news. I doubt that you particually
want to get involved in the battles over here in
the south/east at the moment and I definately want
as few distractions in the North as is possible.
It seems prudent therefore to organize a reasonable
split of Scandanavia (Nwy to E, Swe to R, Den to G)
and a DMZ of Sil/Pru. The extra build I'd get from
Sweeden will be useful against whichever of these
sharks starts to bite first.
How are things going in the West? I guess France has
written since he's already broadcast. I suppose
the question over there is whether you and he gang
up to take out the weaker player, or which one of
you convinces him to go along with your evil schemes.
Heh. So far I've heard only a few friendly signals
from Eric and nothing else, but the game's only an
hour or two old so I wouldn't read anything into that.
Adam.......
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:35 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hello. I hope we can avoid conflict between us as long as possible.
Otherwise, other players will probably reap the benefits from our
spoils.
I propose that we bounce in Galacia. Will this work for you?
I see Rumania as yours, and my first objective is to try to make sure
that you and Turkey are not allied against me. This would make for a
quick exit from the game for me I am sure. I would actually be
interested in some joint action against Turkey if you were interested in
this. I think that Italy would want to join in too. Then we could
jointly attack Germany... wow, a whole game planned out already.
Well, let me know what you think about Galacia, anyway.
Austria
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:37 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hello my German-speaking brothers! We Austrians speak German too.
Hopefully we central powers can draw an axis among us around which the
rest of Europe will revolve. I've found that a powerful German or
powerful Austria are good for each other. At least we will be able to
count on one stable border between us.
No doubt you will turn your attention towards England or France
initially, but Russia will someday be a problem for us both, I think.
Austria
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:38 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to England in 'gutsy':
Hello, you can expect me encourage you to attack Russia if Russia seems to
be a problem, but until then, good luck resolving the France/Germany
circle.
Austria
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:41 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
I'm really looking forward to this game! I played in a high-rated
game once before, and it was quite an experience. :-)
Since I obviously do not want Italy moving west, I've suggested that
he focus on the east while I deal with the west. Perhaps this will
work to your benefit as well. If you and Italy crush Turkey, you'll
be in excellent position to then take out Austria as well (of course,
you'd have to string him along until it's time to finish him off).
;-) And if you provide me with a little help in the north at the same
time, we can each get some growth from England and Germany.
What do you think of suggesting a FIR alliance to Italy? There's no
reason for any of us to threaten the other or to get in each other's
way, so I'm confident that we could secure a FIR three-way. Or if you
have your sights set on a higher goal, a judicious stab could lead to
a two-way. What do you think of this?
Rod
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:39 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
I believe that you and I played together in over1201, which was quite
a learning experience for me. I thought that I was doing rather well,
until I discovered that I was the sucker! Hopefully we'll each fare
better in this game, eh? :-)
I hadn't realized you're a real-life neighbor! How long have you
lived in Harrisburg? I'm a native of Lancaster County. I like this
area - it's a nice blend of urban and rural, and the food's good too.
I suppose that Italy is our biggest mutual concern. I'd like to see
him move east, but I guess you'd be happier if he opens west. An I/A
war would be perfect for both of us, but few Italians are eager to
stab Austria in 1901. OTOH, *winning* with Italy requires taking out
Austria. Maybe we can appeal to his greed and keep him out of our
hair. What do you think?
I'd like to see Russia open north - it distracts England and makes him
less of a threat to you as well. OTOH, everyone will go "Chicken
Little" over the dreaded Juggernaut if you and Russia appear too cozy.
I trust you'll arrive at a clever solution. :-)
Rod
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:42 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
I can already tell this is going to be one of the most entertaining
games I've ever participated in. One great thing about playing with
high rated players is that they're frequently also the ones that make
the game the most fun! Still it is quite intimidating to see people
with over 30 games played, and even one with over 100! I haven't played
nearly that many games of Diplomacy in my life. As the newbies, we have
to remember that we're in the big leagues now, but also that we're here
for a reason and our ratings show that we aren't completely outclassed.
I typically start out games by telling people a little bit about
myself and my playing style, and with this game being non-gunboat I
think that is especially appropriate. First thing to know is that I
love to talk, and try to do so whenever I can. If you haven't heard
from me in a while, its probably becuase I've somehow been cutoff from
my computer, because thats what it takes to shut me up. Along with that
is my biggest pet peeve, silent people. While I doubt it will be much
of an issue in a game of this nature, I can't stand people that refuse
to talk, regardless of whether we are fighting or not. I've been known
in previous games to pick my opponents almost completely on the volume
(and entertainment value) of their press.
I generally have e-mail access throughout the day and try to respond
to people as quickly as posssible. Of course, work frowns on people
spending all their time e-mailing, so I do have to ration out my time
during the day somewhat.
The last thing about me is that I tend to like trying new things and
creative plans. All other things being equal, I'll pick the more
interesting option over the boring one any day.
On to the specifics. I like the idea of splitting Scandanavia and
then demilitarizing it. I actually did this in an earlier game (as
Russia) and it worked out pretty well for all involved. Of course
Germany needs to be in on it too, or else we're just putting ourselves
at risk. Sweden is yours as far as I'm concerned, once again Germany
will be the sticking point on that one. No word from him yet, so I
can't wager a guess which way he'll lean.
As for news, I'm still waiting to hear from people at this point, and
it usually takes a letter or two to get very far beyond the standard
introductions and proposals. Hopefully by tonight the press will be
flying from all directions. I'll be sure to get back to you once things
start to take shape better.
Brent
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:46 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
I can already tell this is going to be one of the most entertaining
games I've ever participated in. One great thing about playing with
high rated players is that they're frequently also the ones that make
the game the most fun! I've always enjoyed being in partial press games
that also have a lot of broadcast press, its almost like playing two
different characters, the public and the private.
I typically start out games by telling people a little bit about
myself and my playing style, and with this game being non-gunboat I
think that is especially appropriate. First thing to know is that I
love to talk, and try to do so whenever I can. If you haven't heard
from me in a while, its probably becuase I've somehow been cutoff from
my computer, because thats what it takes to shut me up. Along with that
is my biggest pet peeve, silent people. While I doubt it will be much
of an issue in a game of this nature, I can't stand people that refuse
to talk, regardless of whether we are fighting or not. I've been known
in previous games to pick my opponents almost completely on the volume
(and entertainment value) of their press.
I generally have e-mail access throughout the day and try to respond
to people as quickly as posssible. Of course, work frowns on people
spending all their time e-mailing, so I do have to ration out my time
during the day somewhat.
The last thing about me is that I tend to like trying new things and
creative plans. All other things being equal, I'll pick the more
interesting option over the boring one any day.
My last experience as England was in the "teachme" game, which was a
wonderful experience. I and all the other newbie players were coached
by an experienced player, and afterwards all the press was revealed and
discussed. Despite never being larger than 6 centers in that game, it
was definitely my most educational game and probably one of my best
played ones as well.
But enough about me. The Channel is an interesting topic. Unlike the
Black Sea, which is almost uniformly bounced (or invaded), Channel moves
in the Spring are almost a rarity. I tend to agree with the majority
that it is a wasted move,and one that an already slow to get going
country like England can ill afford. Of course that depends on the
circumstances, so I don't want to commit to a single solution right
away. I've sometimes agreed to DMZs with people early on, only to
decide later on that it wouldn't be so bad to have them there, but by
then they've already made other plans. So lets keep our options open at
least until we hear from the other countries.
There is also of course the subject of Belgium to be dealt with. I
think gaining Belgium is very important for England, as without it they
are left with the very real possibility of being stuck forever at 5-6
centers (as I learned). However, making a grab for it in 1901 usually
just results in a bounce, or it being quickly recaptured in 1902. So as
the more experienced one, I'll look to you for ideas. Is there a way
that I can gain Belgium in such a way that will not only allow me to
hold it, but also contribute to the well being of both our nations?
No word from the others yet, and my lunch break is just about up, so
I'll leave it at that for now. Good to hear from you so quickly, and I
look forward to a great game!
Brent
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:47 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
Surely you're not trying to drive me and Eric into
an aliance by puting us up against the whole of
the board are you? Strange tactics to try and
Create a juggernaught.
Anyway, you and Italy are about the only countrys
on the map that I /don't/ have a border with which
is something I forgot about playing Russia. I
think I'll have to put off starting this other
game with my friends until this settles down
a little since Russia tends to demand so much
press.
Anyway, I'll let you know if I hear anything relevent
if you promise the same for me. Maybe we'll meet
one day in Austria or Germany and toast our
unconventional two way draw.
Adam........
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:49 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
Looks like you wrote while I was writing to you.
Probably coz I spent ages on the phone half way
through writing it.
> I'm really looking forward to this game! I played in a high-rated
> game once before, and it was quite an experience. :-)
Assuming I don't just get knocked out really quickly,
it should be good. Make a nice change to have everyone
actually replying to press and descussing the game
rather than having one to three powers just silently
sending in orders (usually late).
> Since I obviously do not want Italy moving west, I've suggested that
> he focus on the east while I deal with the west. Perhaps this will
> work to your benefit as well. If you and Italy crush Turkey, you'll
> be in excellent position to then take out Austria as well (of course,
> you'd have to string him along until it's time to finish him off).
> ;-) And if you provide me with a little help in the north at the same
> time, we can each get some growth from England and Germany.
I tried to do this in the last game I played as Russia, but
Italy was stupid and didn't understand I don't think. Possibly
he also didn't want to ally with me because it was a group
of friends who I have a reputation for being the best player
with. I suggested something very similar to Italy, and
suggested going after Russia to Austria too. We'll see how
it works out though. It's odd to have heard from about half
the board this early in a game, but it's still only half.
> What do you think of suggesting a FIR alliance to Italy? There's no
> reason for any of us to threaten the other or to get in each other's
> way, so I'm confident that we could secure a FIR three-way. Or if you
> have your sights set on a higher goal, a judicious stab could lead to
> a two-way. What do you think of this?
I certainly think it's a good idea to have a medium term
goal, an alliance with a player with whom you share no
border ready to enter the middle game. You and Italy would
be the only ones I share no border with so it sounds
fairly good to me.
Adam.........
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:50 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> I only have 3 complete games as Turkey though,
> (and 3 solos, (AGT) for that matter), so I don't
> really have a set in stone plan.
I've barely played Austria or Germany. Those center-board
powers look scary. My one FTF experience as Germany
saw me implode fairly rapidly. There are just so
many directions to look. I like a side of the board
power, perhaps I play best with my back to the wall!
> I would argue that the 15 point difference
> between Keith and I is statistically insignificant,
> and given that his 1490 rating is over 108 games,
> I'd say he's the class of the field.
Could well be true. I doubt that either Brent or I
have a settled rating yet at only 5 games each
either, so the error bars probably make the actual
order on the rankings here almost irrelevent. I
think that the main difference this game will be
that we're all more /dedicated/ rather than that
we're /better/ to be honest. If everyone on the
board writes and replies to press, it'll be the
first time I've played a game where that's happened!
> The Juggernaut can work as long as Russia can
> avoid having EG take Swe and StP. For it to work
> long-term, you'd have to build Fleets in StP, and
> take Germany, Scandinavia and England, while I took
> Austria, the Balkans, and Italy.
Certanly! It would take quite a while for Turkish
fleets to sail all the way around to England. I'd
have to be able to use Rum, at least temporarily,
and going into Germany though Vie tends to make the
attack both more surprising and more sucuessful
while also weakening Austria and letting you
out of the corner a little more easily.
> Not a problem, I'm usually up early.
Really? I hate mornings, can't write a bit of anything
before midday. I tend to do most of my press while I'm
at work between then and six or seven. It's weird
that Americans in general seem better at mornings
than Europeans. Helps with trans-atlantic phone calls
though.
Adam.......
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:51 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
>I believe that you and I played together in over1201, which was quite
>a learning experience for me. I thought that I was doing rather well,
>until I discovered that I was the sucker!
Wait a minute, I was the German whom you and
Italy fatally stabbed after we faked France out of
his shoes in the opening. Who was the sucker? ;^}
>I hadn't realized you're a real-life neighbor! How long have you
>lived in Harrisburg? I'm a native of Lancaster County. I like this
>area - it's a nice blend of urban and rural, and the food's good too.
I've been here about 6 years, working for the
PLCB as a Systems Analyst. It is a nice area. Do
you play any F2F? I was thinking about going down
to D.C. in Oct. for the PT&KS Tempest in a Teapot III,
but it's been 10 years since I've played F2F.
>I suppose that Italy is our biggest mutual concern. I'd like to see
>him move east, but I guess you'd be happier if he opens west. An I/A
>war would be perfect for both of us, but few Italians are eager to
>stab Austria in 1901. OTOH, *winning* with Italy requires taking out
>Austria. Maybe we can appeal to his greed and keep him out of our
>hair. What do you think?
Have you considered a Western Triple? (They're
supposed to be good for Turkey, and it would solve
our Italian Problem. 8-) I'd be happy to see an I/A
conflict, since Keith's 1490 Rating after 108 games
is pretty daunting.
>I'd like to see Russia open north - it distracts England and makes him
>less of a threat to you as well. OTOH, everyone will go "Chicken
>Little" over the dreaded Juggernaut if you and Russia appear too cozy.
>I trust you'll arrive at a clever solution. :-)
Well, I can assure everyone that I'm going to
stab Russia as soon as he commits to an attack on
England... ;^} (Who knows, it might even be true...)
Eric the Turk.
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:53 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Hello. I hope we can avoid conflict between us as long as possible.
> Otherwise, other players will probably reap the benefits from our
> spoils.
Indeed, Italy and Turkey tend to take a lot of Austrian
centers if Russia joins in the attack. The Balkans
almost all go Turkish and Italy gets at least two
of the Austrian centers.
> I propose that we bounce in Galacia. Will this work for you?
Hard to be completely sure at the moment since I have
made no plans on what I'd actually like War to do.
It could concievably be better for it to move either
to Pru/Sil or to Ukr though, depending on how my
relations with Turkey and Germany go. Even Liv isn't
too bad an idea combined with F GOB.
I'll agree to the bounce for now though, but I reserve
the right to withdraw from that agreement before the
deadline if circumstances demand it.
> I see Rumania as yours,
Excelent, the Rumanians will soon be saved.
> and my first objective is to try to make sure
> that you and Turkey are not allied against me.
> This would make for a quick exit from the game for me
> I am sure.
I'm sure it would. I've never actually played Austria
but I've seen it collapse in flames right from the
begining enough to know how hard it can be. If
two of RTI decide to attack, the other invariably
joins in.
My preference at the moment would be for you
and I to take down Turkey rather than Eric and
I take on you.
> I would actually be interested in some joint action
> against Turkey if you were interested in
> this. I think that Italy would want to join in too.
With all three of us in that battle, I probably wouldn't
really need to devote a lot of power to it giving me
a bit more flexability in the north to help ensure
that the Western Triangle doesn't settle too quickly
too.
> Then we could jointly attack Germany... wow, a whole
> game planned out already.
I tend to get ahead of myself if I'm not too careful
too. Together, we can RULE THE WORLD!
> Well, let me know what you think about Galacia, anyway.
As I said, in principle I agree to the bounce at the
moment, but I haven't even heard from everybody yet,
if Germany starts talking rough (fairly unlikely) or
Turkey starts making claims on Rum I may have to
ask for the bounce to be reconsidered.
Adam.......
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:54 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> First thing to know is that I love to talk, and try to do so
> whenever I can.
I noticed. ;-)
> Along with that is my biggest pet peeve, silent people. While I
> doubt it will be much of an issue in a game of this nature
I think you're right that it shouldn't be a problem in this game.
Silent people are usually quickly eliminated, and that rarely leads
to high JDPRs, eh?
> I've been known in previous games to pick my opponents almost
> completely on the volume (and entertainment value) of their press.
I'll have to keep that in mind. :-) I can't promise to write a novel
or anything, but I will *always* respond to a message that you send
me. As for entertainment value, do you like lawyer jokes?
> I generally have e-mail access throughout the day and try to respond
> to people as quickly as posssible. Of course, work frowns on people
> spending all their time e-mailing, so I do have to ration out my time
> during the day somewhat.
My situation is very similar. Unless I'm stuck in a meeting, I'm
generally able to respond quickly during the day (i.e., at work).
I've found that being online at the same time is very helpful when
two players are making plans together. You can negotiate nearly in
real time.
> The Channel is an interesting topic. ...
> I tend to agree with the majority that it is a wasted move
> country like England can ill afford. Of course that depends on the
> circumstances, so I don't want to commit to a single solution right
> away. ...
> So lets keep our options open at
> least until we hear from the other countries.
I think that's a wise plan. I'll assume that you'll open north while
I enter MAO, but I'm open to other options. If it turns out that it's
better for us to do something else, then of course that's what we'll
do.
> I think gaining Belgium is very important for England, as without it
> they are left with the very real possibility of being stuck forever
> at 5-6 centers (as I learned).
I think it depends on *which* centers you're going for after the first
5 or 6. Of course, getting stuffed is a very real possibility
regardless. However, England's slow growth is somewhat balanced by
its defensive ability. Nevertheless, we all want sustained growth.
> However, making a grab for it in 1901 usually
> just results in a bounce, or it being quickly recaptured in 1902.
Bel is difficult for England to hold unless he pushes farther inland,
which of course must harm either F or G. FG don't like to take that
risk, so an English move to Bel must be arranged *diplomatically*.
But I suppose that's true whereever you go....
> Is there a way that I can gain Belgium in such a way that will not
> only allow me to hold it, but also contribute to the well being of
> both our nations?
An easy way for you to get Bel is for EFG to agree that we should each
get two builds in 1901. Another option is for you to tell France that
you'll move against Germany and tell Germany that you'll move against
France, and then maybe both will support you into Bel to make sure the
other doesn't get it. Of course, if FG catch on that you've been
double-dealing, it could easily backfire.
A big issue is whether you take Bel with an army or a fleet. A fleet
has the advantage of not making FG nervous, but it's something of a
dead end. If you have to park a fleet in Bel just to hold it, what's
the point of getting that build? You could convoy your army to Bel,
but I won't like seeing a foreign army so close to French soil unless
it immediately moves east - if you know what I mean. ;-)
Of course, Russia could potentially throw a wrench in the works. If
he opens Mos-StP then you must support yourself into Nwy, and Bel is
out of reach. So you'll have to make sure that doesn't happen.
BTW, thanks for suggesting this game on r.g.d. It's going to be a lot
of fun! :-)
Rod
From - Wed Sep 05 20:48:58 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
> I can already tell this is going to be one of the most entertaining
> games I've ever participated in. One great thing about playing with
> high rated players is that they're frequently also the ones that make
> the game the most fun!
Exactly, it'll be so strange to have a game where
everybody actually TALKS to each other.
> Still it is quite intimidating to see people
> with over 30 games played, and even one with over 100! I haven't played
> nearly that many games of Diplomacy in my life.
I might make close to the 30, but most of my FTF games
tended to just pitter out rather than a real draw get
declared. Combination of booze and slackness with deadlines
making the time VERY late can do that.
> I love to talk, and try to do so whenever I can. If you haven't heard
> from me in a while, its probably becuase I've somehow been cutoff from
> my computer, because thats what it takes to shut me up.
Good, I've been known to get paranoid about quiet people
and change my orders at the last minute to stab 'em because
they didn't reply enough. I saw an article in the Pouch
about press frequency usually going down just before a stab.
> Along with that is my biggest pet peeve, silent people.
Oh, knock them out, get them off the board. Why would
someone sign up to a press game if they don't intend to
write any press? Bizzare.
> I generally have e-mail access throughout the day and try to respond
> to people as quickly as posssible. Of course, work frowns on people
> spending all their time e-mailing, so I do have to ration out my time
> during the day somewhat.
I tend to write most of my press from work (BST 10/11ish to 6/7ish)
but if there's something that needs saying, I'll even say it
from a cyber-cafe while away from London alltogether.
> I like the idea of splitting Scandanavia and
> then demilitarizing it. I actually did this in an earlier game (as
> Russia) and it worked out pretty well for all involved.
The last game I finished (which was Payola so it's different)
me (England) and Turkey took over and eliminated Russia
before we DMZ'ed it completely. It won us the game, the
last few moves were almost dice throws to see which of us
took the solo. Made me come to the conclusion that having
an area of the board you hardly have to think about, is
like having a motorbike during a marathon.
> Of course Germany needs to be in on it too,
> or else we're just putting ourselves at risk.
Demnark would have to be DMZ'ed too. One way or the
other. Heh.
> Sweden is yours as far as I'm concerned, once again Germany
> will be the sticking point on that one. No word from him yet, so I
> can't wager a guess which way he'll lean.
Also no word here, perhaps he only has access at home
or something. I doubt he'll bounce me in Swe unless
I give him good reason too, but best to remember all
posibilities.
> As for news, I'm still waiting to hear from people at this point, and
> it usually takes a letter or two to get very far beyond the standard
> introductions and proposals. Hopefully by tonight the press will be
> flying from all directions. I'll be sure to get back to you once things
> start to take shape better.
Ah, this is where I could be at a slight disadvantage. Me and
Raine (Italy) anyway. By the time the press is flying 'tonight'
I'll be in bed in London. It's already tonight here and I
should be cooking some food really.
Adam.......
From - Wed Sep 05 20:49:19 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
> Wait a minute, I was the German whom you and
> Italy fatally stabbed after we faked France out of
> his shoes in the opening. Who was the sucker? ;^}
Yeah, but I was Italy's fool for nearly the entire game! Besides, you
can't really blame me for turning against an "ally" who was about to
grab his eighth center while I was still stuck on four.
Yeah, I know - you weren't going to stab me. Sure, sure....
:-)
> Do you play any F2F? I was thinking about going down
> to D.C. in Oct. for the PT&KS Tempest in a Teapot III
Unfortunately, I have other plans that weekend. I played Dip at the
WBC (former AvalonCon) in MD the last three years. It takes me only
75 minutes to get there, so it's basically right in our back yard.
> but it's been 10 years since I've played F2F.
I prefer PBEM. The pace of F2F is rather hectic - I need almost the
whole 15-minute negotiation period just to stare at the board and
figure out what's going on. Still, it's quite an experience. I had
not played F2F in several years (and never against experienced
players), and I went to the tournament and got trounced. I was much
more relaxed and just had a good time the following year. Give it a
try!
> Have you considered a Western Triple? (They're
> supposed to be good for Turkey, and it would solve
> our Italian Problem. 8-)
I suggested it, but how often do EFG all agree? Usually someone is
afraid of getting burned.
> I'd be happy to see an I/A conflict, since Keith's 1490 Rating after
> 108 games is pretty daunting.
Well, make sure you point that out to everybody! I'm sure no one will
take notice of your own rating.... ;-)
Rod
From - Wed Sep 05 20:49:21 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Surely you're not trying to drive me and Eric into
> an aliance by puting us up against the whole of
> the board are you?
The Juggernaut is a foregone conclusion. It is your destiny....
> I think I'll have to put off starting this other
> game with my friends until this settles down
> a little since Russia tends to demand so much press.
Don't worry, just do whatever Eric tells you and I'm sure everything
will be fine. ;-)
Of course, I'm only joking. I'm mocking the belief that playing
non-gunboat leads to the players' identities unduly influencing the
course of the game. That might be so when an expert plays a bunch of
newbies (but then, that would serve him right, eh?), but I think in
this game we're all experienced enough to just play the game.
> Anyway, I'll let you know if I hear anything relevent
> if you promise the same for me.
I think that's an excellent idea. Sharing information will benefit us
both.
> Make a nice change to have everyone
> actually replying to press and descussing the game
> rather than having one to three powers just silently
> sending in orders (usually late).
I agree. It's frustrating when you put in the effort to play a good
game, and the game is ruined by irrational or silent players. Win or
lose, this is bound to be an exciting game!
> It's odd to have heard from about half
> the board this early in a game, but it's still only half.
It's unusual, but nice. :-) It's much easier to negotiate when the
other players respond quickly.
> You and Italy would
> be the only ones I share no border with so it sounds
> fairly good to me.
Excellent! I anticipate that this arrangement will be very profitable
for us. I'll let you know what I hear from the Italian.
Rod
From - Wed Sep 05 20:49:23 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
I suggested a FIR alliance to Russia, and he seems to be in favor of
it. There's no reason for we three to interfere with each other, so
I think we have excellent prospects of controlling the board if we
cooperate. What do you think of this?
Rod
From - Wed Sep 05 20:49:25 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>Hello. I would be most happy to see you move Ank-Bla.
I'll keep that in mind.
>There's nothing that an Austrian player fears more than an R-T alliance.
When I play Austria, it's RI that I dread. It's
as strong as the Juggernaut, and no-one fears it, so
it doesn't generate the response from EG that RT does.
>I know that our geography can be a problem in long-term cooperation between
>us,
Geography can always be overcome. (Since it's
a matter of public record, I actually have an AT 2-way
Draw to my credit. 8-)
>but if you want to try, I am sure we can make it work. Russia would have
>to be fooled into thinking he was allied with one of us.
He certainly seems interested in an RT Alliance,
but then he could well be approaching everyone that
way.
Eric the Turk.
From - Wed Sep 05 20:49:27 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> >There's nothing that an Austrian player fears more than an R-T alliance.
>
> When I play Austria, it's RI that I dread. It's
> as strong as the Juggernaut, and no-one fears it, so
> it doesn't generate the response from EG that RT does.
I'm not worried about that right now.
> >I know that our geography can be a problem in long-term cooperation between
> >us,
>
> Geography can always be overcome. (Since it's
> a matter of public record, I actually have an AT 2-way
> Draw to my credit. 8-)
How did you do it, and what would we need to do?
> He certainly seems interested in an RT Alliance,
> but then he could well be approaching everyone that
> way.
Indeed.
Austria
From - Wed Sep 05 20:49:29 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> It seems that France has already decided that I'm
> Eric's "lackey", which comes as a surprise to me
> as I'm sure it does to Eric. I wonder if perhaps
> the best way to scotch these rumours would be
> to remove the master in that relationship? Just
> wondering how much of a Shark Hunter you might
> turn out to be.
I would be happy to help against Turkey, if that's what you want to do.
You could find the venture most profitable if you are able to maneuver
your fleet into the Black Sea in the Spring.
Also, no doubt you have already contacted Turkey, though, about an
alliance with him as well? This could be useful.
As I said in a previous message, I relenquish all claims on Rumania in
your favor.
> In the shorter term, of course, we have to decide
> what we want to do about Gal/Rum. Obviously I'd
> very much like to liberate the Rumanian people
> as soon as possible and put a Russian command
> center there by the end of the year. Galacia
> however seems to me to be completely content
> as it is, empty of all arms. Perhaps we could
> make an agreement to keep it that way?
In my initial message I proposed that we bounce there. This way there
can be no double crossing that could be severely damaging to either of us
so early in the game. What do you think about this, or would you prefer
to keep it open?
Austria
From - Wed Sep 05 20:49:31 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Thanks for the opening letter. Your words are very reassuring; in a sea of
potential enemies it is good to know I have found a friend.
I agree that we Germanic types do best when we stick together. As you
pointed out, a powerful Germany and a powerful Austria are good for each
other. We benefit from each other's growth and we suffer from each other's
pain.
To maximize the benefits and minimize the pain, I suggest we keep each other
abreast of the diplomatic tidbits that cross our desks. I'm not saying we
forward entire press or anything, but I'm sure we each will hear things that
the other should know. Perhaps someday we will cooperate militarily, but
for now I'd be satisfied with a peaceful border and an exchange of news; an
"alliance of information" if you will.
Also, you raised the issue of Russia. One of my first diplomatic goals as
Germany is to squash the juggernaut. Some say an RT rolls over Austria
first, so it's no concern of Germany's in the early game. I disagree.
I hope to talk some more soon.
- Stephen
From - Wed Sep 05 20:49:33 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Don't have a grand scheme, eh? I read your broadcast. :)
So...about Burgundy, if you go there, I'll be pissed; if I go there, you'll
be pissed. Agreed upon bounces are even worse. It just commits us to a
poor use of our units. Besides, if you really want it, you can support
yourself in and I don't have much say in the matter. To make things easier
for us both, I just won't go there.
The real question is what *will* we do? I believe in resolving the triangle
and taking my chances. The only one who benefits from a triple is England
because it keeps the wolves at bay. I hope you feel the same way.
Please write when you have the chance. There's a lot to talk about.
- Stephen
From - Wed Sep 05 20:49:34 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Good to see you here; I hope TeachMe2 played well. Sorry about my *total*
lack of involvement in that game, but my wife was pregnant and real life
took over. Whenever that happens, online fun is the first to go. I hope
you understand.
So, back to the game...
England's a tricky country to play; so is Germany. From where I sit, France
has it easy. You expected me to say that, right? :)
I've read several Zine articles saying you shouldn't let others know what
you're really thinking and instead you should weasel around until they
reveal their intentions. I think that's a bunch of crap. I believe in
resolving the Western Triangle as quickly as possible and I don't care with
whom. Get it done and move on.
My intentions are to take Holland and Denmark. From what I've heard, Russia
wants Sweden (makes sense to me). France wants a DMZ in Burgundy (again,
makes sense to me). That's the perfect basis for a strong EG. Let me know
how you think I should respond.
I look forward to hearing from you.
- Stephen
From - Wed Sep 05 20:49:35 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Stephen,
> Don't have a grand scheme, eh? I read your broadcast. :)
Think it'll work?? :-)
> To make things easier for us both, I just won't go there.
Sounds good. I'll stay out as well.
> The only one who benefits from a triple is England
> because it keeps the wolves at bay. I hope you feel the same way.
I think Germany has the worst of it in the Triple, but I figured I'd
suggest it anyway just in case you didn't know that. ;-) Regardless,
you are right to reject it.
So I guess that means it's FG against E, right?
> There's a lot to talk about.
Indeed. How shall we go about getting our piece of the pie?
Rod
From - Wed Sep 05 21:26:07 2001
Broadcast message from rkyonkoski at att.net as Master in 'gutsy':
>(Hmmm, I've got two cousins
>living in the Rochester area... This almost calls for a road-trip,
>and a F2F game...8-)
Come on down.... er, or up I should say.
But do it quickly, Kieth will graduate soon and there will be just me.
Roger
PS: Of course we could not talk about gutsy while you are here.
From - Thu Sep 06 05:21:04 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Thanks for your note. It's always good to connect this early in the game.
At this point, I have no idea how the west will play, but I'm working hard
to figure it out. :)
I'm one of those players that thinks the west should be resolved quickly;
I'm sure you feel the same way in the east. Somebody has to go down and go
down fast. From what I've heard so far, I don't think it will be me and I
don't think it will be you.
As I see it, the key points in our discussions should be Sweden and Warsaw.
If you keep clear of Silesia and Prussia, I won't challenge you in Sweden.
Eventually, we'll have to do some serious negotiating, but that's at least a
year or two off. Fair enough?
Write when you have the chance. I appreciate the contact.
- Stephen
From - Thu Sep 06 05:21:18 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
Let's see...I'm in Germany and you're in Turkey. Hmm...not a lot of
opportunity to work together unless we both attack Russia (maybe) or we both
attack Austria (not likely for me). No matter how we move though, we should
at least talk. Sound good?
Write when you can.
- Steve
P.S. Now what was that symbol of power you we're talking about? I saw one
of those lately, but I don't quite remember where. :)
From - Thu Sep 06 05:21:25 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Good to see you again. You're the only player in this bunch that I've had
any contact with before this game. Teachme2 is going fairly well, though
there have been more player abandonments and delays than I would've hoped
for. I was able to find a replacement coach for you that has done quite
well, so don't feel bad about having to drop out. Your time and effort were
still much appreciated!
Before we get into specifics, its probably only fair if I tell you a bit
more about me. First thing to know is that I love to talk, and try to do
so whenever I can. If you haven't heard from me in a while, its probably
becuase I've somehow been cutoff from my computer, because thats what it
takes to shut me up. Along with that is my biggest pet peeve, silent
people. While I doubt it will be much of an issue in a game of this nature,
I can't stand people that refuse to talk, regardless of whether we are
fighting or not. I've been known in previous games to pick my opponents
almost completely on the volume (and entertainment value) of their press.
I generally have e-mail access throughout the day and try to respond to
people as quickly as posssible. Of course, work frowns on people spending
all their time e-mailing, so I do have to ration out my time
during the day somewhat.
The last thing about me is that I tend to like trying new things and
creative plans. All other things being equal, I'll pick the more
interesting option over the boring one any day.
Now on to the specifics, starting with a quote from your message:
[I've read several Zine articles saying you shouldn't let others know what
you're really thinking and instead you should weasel around until they
reveal their intentions. I think that's a bunch of crap. ]
I couldn't agree with you more. I've already given away a whole bunch of
information that I'm supposed to be keeping secret about my playing style.
My theory is that real alliances are based not so much on the mythical
"trust" that you hear so much about, but more on really understanding each
other's needs and goals, and finding ways to achieve them for both of you.
The best defense against a stab is having the other player KNOW that it is
in their best interest to stay with you, and this can only happen when you
understand where they are coming from.
I also agree with your assessment of playing France. I have played
England twice before, and both times the opening has been marred by France
picking up some easy builds and using them to harass me for the next several
years. Russia has started talking about the possibility of each taking our
chunk of Scandanavia and then DMZing completely, and I think we should
continue to pursue that possibility. It frees up a couple of units for us,
insures that Russia is concentrating on the South and making enemies for
himself there, and sets us up nicely for the time when we may need to take
over the North for ourselves. If we can get that, and France moving away
from us to being with, we should be able to get in and get out of the
Western triangle fast and be ahead of the other side.
Of course the disposition of the other countries in the East can also have
a profound effect on the success of such a plan, so we should wait until
they've at least had a bit of a say to begin making concrete plans. I still
have yet to hear from Italy or Turkey, and have only a very short message
from Austria.
Finally, do you know anything about any of the other players from previous
experience? Might as well take advantage of the lack of anonymity, right?
From - Thu Sep 06 05:21:29 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> To maximize the benefits and minimize the pain, I suggest we keep each other
> abreast of the diplomatic tidbits that cross our desks. I'm not saying we
> forward entire press or anything, but I'm sure we each will hear things that
> the other should know. Perhaps someday we will cooperate militarily, but
> for now I'd be satisfied with a peaceful border and an exchange of news; an
> "alliance of information" if you will.
Certainly I will do this. I am as willing as any player to share
information. Of course I have not heard anything interesting yet.
Austria
From - Thu Sep 06 16:54:04 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
> Let's see...I'm in Germany and you're in Turkey. Hmm...not a lot
> of opportunity to work together
Well, we can share information in the early going, and if we both
survive the opening bloodbath, the midgame-endgame opportunties
for GT cooperation are tremendous.
> P.S. Now what was that symbol of power you we're talking about?
> I saw one of those lately, but I don't quite remember where. :)
*Grand Vizier Jafar coughs, politely, and suggests that you check
your back in a mirror...* 8-)
Eric.
From - Thu Sep 06 16:54:28 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
> Of course, I'm only joking. I'm mocking the belief that playing
> non-gunboat leads to the players' identities unduly influencing the
> course of the game. That might be so when an expert plays a bunch of
> newbies (but then, that would serve him right, eh?), but I think in
> this game we're all experienced enough to just play the game.
My reputation has definately effected the way other players
approach me in FTF games with friends. Luckily they're so
stab-happy they end up screwing each other as much as
they try to screw me. I guess you're right, anyone with
any skill would more or less ignore reputation and consider
the Board and the Offer on the Table.
> I think that's an excellent idea. Sharing information
> will benefit us both.
Worryingly, Italy still hasn't written at all. That could
be a real problem if he doesn't sort himself out at some
point, a vacant Italy would definately effect my aliances
in the south.
Germany seems to think that he and I are reasonably safe
from a massive initial attack from our neighbours so I
guess he hasn't heard anyone planning to go for my throat.
Sounds like he'd make a strong ally to whichever Western
power he teams up with.
> Excellent! I anticipate that this arrangement will be very profitable
> for us. I'll let you know what I hear from the Italian.
I assume that you still haven't since he's been silent
with me so far too. It's a shame, I'd like to figure out
a way to work with him.
Adam..........
From - Thu Sep 06 16:54:30 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
Keith,
> I would be happy to help against Turkey, if that's what you want to do.
> You could find the venture most profitable if you are able to maneuver
> your fleet into the Black Sea in the Spring.
We haven't talked much about the Black Sea as yet, though I'm
sure we will. If Italy would reply to my press I'd have a
better idea what might be for the best, even arranging a bounce
with Turkey would make a Lepanto easier.
> Also, no doubt you have already contacted Turkey, though, about an
> alliance with him as well? This could be useful.
I have, of course, but he came back with some fairly strict
demands which amounted to him getting all of Austria and
the Balkans while I tried to build a northern navy to
rival England and take Scandanavia. While I agree with him
that the northern Navy will be important, I'm not so
sure that the split he wants for the rest would be too
great so I'm waivering on the side of simply emilinating
him.
> As I said in a previous message, I relenquish all claims on
> Rumania in your favor.
Thank you, it's more than Eric seems willing to do.
> In my initial message I proposed that we bounce there. This way there
> can be no double crossing that could be severely damaging to either of us
> so early in the game. What do you think about this, or would you prefer
> to keep it open?
I'm still not sure at the moment, so I'll let you know. If
I end up trying for Bla then it would be useful to have Mos
follow into Sev and so War would move to Ukr to ensure that
Rum could be captured.
Germany has told me that so long as Pru and Sil remain
vacant he won't challenge me in Swe, so there doesn't
appear to be much reason to send War north. I guess it
depends on what Eric wants to do in Bla.
Adam..........
From - Thu Sep 06 16:54:32 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
Stephen,
> At this point, I have no idea how the west will play, but I'm
> working hard to figure it out. :)
For what it's worth, this is pretty much what England and France
have said to me so far as well. England has also responded to
my hypothesising about Scandanavia saying that if you were to
agree it might be useful to DMZ Swe, Nwy and Den in a year or
two once those centers have been tamed so I suppose he might
be waivering toward choosing you but I wouldn't read too much
into it at this stage.
> I'm one of those players that thinks the west should be resolved quickly;
> I'm sure you feel the same way in the east. Somebody has to go down and go
> down fast. From what I've heard so far, I don't think it will be me and I
> don't think it will be you.
That's encouraging to hear, it's always nicer to be in the position
of choosing your allies rather than desperately scrambling for one
when your neighbours attack.
> As I see it, the key points in our discussions should be Sweden and Warsaw.
> If you keep clear of Silesia and Prussia, I won't challenge you in Sweden.
> Eventually, we'll have to do some serious negotiating, but that's at least a
> year or two off. Fair enough?
Sounds like exactly the kind of deal I was hoping for, at least
in these early stages. If it starts to look like you need more
northern fleets and your agreements with whoever don't allow
you to build them, StP fleets can be built at your request.
Adam.............
From - Thu Sep 06 16:54:34 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
Sorry that I haven't heard from you yet, hope you'll get in
touch soon.
France has approached me with a fairly interesting sounding idea
for a RIF allience which would fit in beautifully with the
plan I mentioned earlier to use Austria against Turkey and
then crush him between us. It would keep France out of your
way busy in the north while we executed our plan and,
assuming he was doing well against England/Germany, we
would own the east ready to fight against him in the
west after Austria was gone too. What do you think?
Other news is that, as you'd expect, Austria and Turkey
are both making friendly noises with me and encouraging
me to fight against each of them. Assuming that these
noises are genuine, we could go with this plan or not,
I'm fine either way.
Let me know what you think.
Adam............
From - Thu Sep 06 16:54:37 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Austria in 'gutsy':
Thanks for the message. I have heard from Russia, but so far our
negotiations have been limited to the situation in the North so I don't know
whether he plans to cause trouble for you or not.
I typically start out games by telling people a little bit about myself
and my playing style, and with this game being non-gunboat I think that is
especially appropriate. First thing to know is that I love to talk, and try
to do so whenever I can. If you haven't heard from me in a while, its
probably becuase I've somehow been cutoff from my computer, because thats
what it takes to shut me up. Along with that is my biggest pet peeve,
silent people. While I doubt it will be much of an issue in a game of this
nature, I can't stand people that refuse to talk, regardless of whether we
are fighting or not. I've been known in previous games to pick my opponents
almost completely on the volume (and entertainment value) of their press.
I generally have e-mail access throughout the day and try to respond to
people as quickly as posssible. Of course, work frowns on people spending
all their time e-mailing, so I do have to ration out my time during the day
somewhat.
The last thing about me is that I tend to like trying new things and
creative plans. All other things being equal, I'll pick the more
interesting option over the boring one any day.
I don't have much else to share with you yet, as I have yet to hear from
either Italy or Turkey. When this changes, I'll be sure to let you know.
Brent
From - Thu Sep 06 16:54:36 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
I can already tell this is going to be one of the most entertaining games
I've ever participated in. One great thing about playing with high rated
players is that they're frequently also the ones that make the game the most
fun!
I typically start out games by telling people a little bit about myself
and my playing style, and with this game being non-gunboat I think that is
especially appropriate. First thing to know is that I love to talk, and try
to do so whenever I can. If you haven't heard from me in a while, its
probably becuase I've somehow been cutoff from my computer, because thats
what it takes to shut me up. Along with that is my biggest pet peeve,
silent people. While I doubt it will be much of an issue in a game of this
nature, I can't stand people that refuse to talk, regardless of whether we
are fighting or not. I've been known in previous games to pick my opponents
almost completely on the volume (and entertainment value) of their press.
I generally have e-mail access throughout the day and try to respond to
people as quickly as posssible. Of course, work frowns on people spending
all their time e-mailing, so I do have to ration out my time during the day
somewhat.
The last thing about me is that I tend to like trying new things and
creative plans. All other things being equal, I'll pick the more
interesting option over the boring one any day.
Italy is always an interesting country to watch in the early going,
because of its ability to choose a direction. While moving East is more
common these days, there are still those that start out to the West. I'd be
interested in your early thoughts on which direction you will go. I assure
you that any information I receive would be kept in confidence unless I was
given permission to release it. Looking forward to hearing from you.
Brent
From - Thu Sep 06 16:54:40 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Greetings from the other edge of the world. If the pres I have received
is any indiciation, things are probably still pretty quite on your side, so
I thought I'd take a bit of time to introduce myself.
I typically start out games by telling people a little bit about myself
and my playing style, and with this game being non-gunboat I think that is
especially appropriate. First thing to know is that I love to talk, and try
to do so whenever I can. If you haven't heard from me in a while, its
probably becuase I've somehow been cutoff from my computer, because thats
what it takes to shut me up. Along with that is my biggest pet peeve,
silent people. While I doubt it will be much of an issue in a game of this
nature, I can't stand people that refuse to talk, regardless of whether we
are fighting or not. I've been known in previous games to pick my opponents
almost completely on the volume (and entertainment value) of their press.
I generally have e-mail access throughout the day and try to respond to
people as quickly as posssible. Of course, work frowns on people spending
all their time e-mailing, so I do have to ration out my time during the day
somewhat.
The last thing about me is that I tend to like trying new things and
creative plans. All other things being equal, I'll pick the more
interesting option over the boring one any day.
A few comments from what I do know of your neighbors. Russia has already
contacted me and claims to be looking for a Southern opening. That doesn't
tell you much, and considering who it was talking to is probably pretty
standard fare, but I thought I'd let you know. Austria has sent me only a
one line message. I seem to recall from checking out the players JDPR
history before it went down that he is almost exclusively a no-press and
gray broadcast only player, so playing Austria in a high press volume game
may be wuite the switch for him. Italy has yet to contact me, and thus I
have nothing to report. Anyways, hope things are going well for you down
there. It's always to have someone to talk to that you KNOW you'll never
have to be fighting unless you're both already doing well. Look forward to
hearing from you.
Brent
From - Thu Sep 06 16:54:42 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
Well, looks like I was wrong about the peak press time. Instead of
picking up in the night hours over here, it got completely silent. I didn't
receive a single message from the time I left work to now when I'm about to
go back to work.
I did hear from Germany earlier in the afternoon. He sounds pretty
amiable, he mentioned that you requested Sweden and said he was likely to
agree to that, and that he is most likely going to start out heading West.
Now I've just got to convince him to pick France as his target! In my
response I floated the idea of a DMZ in Scandanavia once each of us has
picked up our center there, so we'll see if there's any reaction to that.
One last bit of information. Before it went down, I had been checking out
each of the players historys' on the JDPR query. One interesting one was
Keith, the Austrian player. While he does have 100+ games to his name, they
are almost exclusively no-press and gray broadcast only games. There were
probably only about 15 full press games on there. The one-line message I
received from Austria confirms that talking may not be his strong point. Do
with that what you will.
Brent
From - Thu Sep 06 16:54:45 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Worryingly, Italy still hasn't written at all. That could
> be a real problem if he doesn't sort himself out at some
> point, a vacant Italy would definately effect my aliances
> in the south.
I haven't heard from him either. Still, I doubt that a taciturn
player would achieve a high rating, so I don't think we should write
him off just yet. After all, the game just started less than 24 hours
ago. However, negotiation might be difficult if he is rarely online
at the same time as others.
> Sounds like he'd make a strong ally to whichever Western
> power he teams up with.
Well, I just received a message from England that he intended to
send to Germany (OOPS!), indicating that they're planning to DMZ
Scandinavia with you then take me out, so it looks like I have my
work cut out for me. OTOH, you can't really believe what people
say before the first turn anyway, so it's just as likely that Germany
is stringing along England rather than me.
I don't suppose you'd consider opening north? If England stabs me in
the Channel and you move Mos-StP, no builds for England! That'd be a
real shame, wouldn't it? ;-)
Rod
From - Thu Sep 06 16:54:46 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
You mean you've been talking to players other than *me*?!? I am *so*
disappointed!
;-)
Rod
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Good to see you again. You're the only player in this bunch that I've had
any contact with before this game. Teachme2 is going fairly well, though
there have been more player abandonments and delays than I would've hoped
for. I was able to find a replacement coach for you that has done quite
well, so don't feel bad about having to drop out. Your time and effort were
still much appreciated!
Before we get into specifics, its probably only fair if I tell you a bit
more about me. First thing to know is that I love to talk, and try to do
so whenever I can. If you haven't heard from me in a while, its probably
becuase I've somehow been cutoff from my computer, because thats what it
takes to shut me up. Along with that is my biggest pet peeve, silent
people. While I doubt it will be much of an issue in a game of this nature,
I can't stand people that refuse to talk, regardless of whether we are
fighting or not. I've been known in previous games to pick my opponents
almost completely on the volume (and entertainment value) of their press.
I generally have e-mail access throughout the day and try to respond to
people as quickly as posssible. Of course, work frowns on people spending
all their time e-mailing, so I do have to ration out my time
during the day somewhat.
The last thing about me is that I tend to like trying new things and
creative plans. All other things being equal, I'll pick the more
interesting option over the boring one any day.
Now on to the specifics, starting with a quote from your message:
[I've read several Zine articles saying you shouldn't let others know what
you're really thinking and instead you should weasel around until they
reveal their intentions. I think that's a bunch of crap. ]
I couldn't agree with you more. I've already given away a whole bunch of
information that I'm supposed to be keeping secret about my playing style.
My theory is that real alliances are based not so much on the mythical
"trust" that you hear so much about, but more on really understanding each
other's needs and goals, and finding ways to achieve them for both of you.
The best defense against a stab is having the other player KNOW that it is
in their best interest to stay with you, and this can only happen when you
understand where they are coming from.
I also agree with your assessment of playing France. I have played
England twice before, and both times the opening has been marred by France
picking up some easy builds and using them to harass me for the next several
years. Russia has started talking about the possibility of each taking our
chunk of Scandanavia and then DMZing completely, and I think we should
continue to pursue that possibility. It frees up a couple of units for us,
insures that Russia is concentrating on the South and making enemies for
himself there, and sets us up nicely for the time when we may need to take
over the North for ourselves. If we can get that, and France moving away
from us to being with, we should be able to get in and get out of the
Western triangle fast and be ahead of the other side.
Of course the disposition of the other countries in the East can also have
a profound effect on the success of such a plan, so we should wait until
they've at least had a bit of a say to begin making concrete plans. I still
have yet to hear from Italy or Turkey, and have only a very short message
from Austria.
Finally, do you know anything about any of the other players from previous
experience? Might as well take advantage of the lack of anonymity, right?
From - Thu Sep 06 16:54:49 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> I will of course encourage Italy not to attack you.
Thanks for the assistance! I have not yet heard from the Italian.
Have you gotten any messages from him?
> Good luck with England and/or Germany.
Thanks - I fear I might need it! :-)
Rod
From - Thu Sep 06 16:54:51 2001
Broadcast message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy in 'gutsy':
Greetings everyone,
The fun has begun and my mailbox is flooding :-)
Some of you have talked about rising JDPR's. Mine is going down if that
has any significance.
I hope we can all have a pleasent fight.
Raine
PS. The most important issue :-)
> to take him out first, then finish off the high-low JDPR pair. Then
> the Americans will gang up on the Fin.
Finn! I am a Finn! I live in Finland and I speak Finnish.
Don't gang up...
Diplomacy is a way of learning English to me (I am not a native English
speaker) so always feel free to correct my language.
From - Thu Sep 06 16:54:52 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Nice to have some other european player in gutsy. Gutsy began sooner than
I had expected. I hope you can forgive my late start.
> Very early days to be making concrete proposals,
> but I just wondered how you'd react.
I agree. It is early but the sooner the better :-)
France gave me a not about FIR also. Like you say it is interesting
indeed. Let's talk about this more after we have talked about some general
things, ok?
I would like to hear your opinion about RI co-operation in general. I
don't mean gutsy but in generally. What would be the most desirable way of
expansion? How would we share the supplies? Who would be the possible 3rd
power we would take advantage as 'ally'? What alliances between other
nations we would not like to see?
Then if you could try to fit those thoughts into gutsy that would be nice
:-) To answer this we must of course talk more with others.
My personal view is that RI is very natural (if there is natural alliance
in Diplomacy) alliance. We have common neighbours but we are not bordering
each other.
Raine
From - Thu Sep 06 16:54:54 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Hehe, gee, it usually takes me a few turns to do something like that.
Thats what I get for writing late at night. Oh well, no real secrets in
there, just the standard opening talk between England and Germany. He
wants me to attack you, I want him to attack you, you want him to attack
me, etc. Still, I do feel pretty stupid coming into a "high-rated" game
and playing like a newbie so early on...
From - Thu Sep 06 16:54:56 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
Doh! Not even 24 hours in the game, and I've already committed a
cardinal sin. The message I meant to send to you went to France
instead. Nothing too damaging in it, but still more than I would've
liked to let him know. Already fulfilling my role of "newbie" in this
game I guess. Anyways, I'll let you judge for yourself. Here's the
message:
Good to see you again. You're the only player in this bunch that I've
had
any contact with before this game. Teachme2 is going fairly well,
though
there have been more player abandonments and delays than I would've
hoped
for. I was able to find a replacement coach for you that has done quite
well, so don't feel bad about having to drop out. Your time and effort
were
still much appreciated!
Before we get into specifics, its probably only fair if I tell you a
bit
more about me. First thing to know is that I love to talk, and try to
do
so whenever I can. If you haven't heard from me in a while, its
probably
becuase I've somehow been cutoff from my computer, because thats what it
takes to shut me up. Along with that is my biggest pet peeve, silent
people. While I doubt it will be much of an issue in a game of this
nature,
I can't stand people that refuse to talk, regardless of whether we are
fighting or not. I've been known in previous games to pick my opponents
almost completely on the volume (and entertainment value) of their
press.
I generally have e-mail access throughout the day and try to respond
to
people as quickly as posssible. Of course, work frowns on people
spending
all their time e-mailing, so I do have to ration out my time
during the day somewhat.
The last thing about me is that I tend to like trying new things and
creative plans. All other things being equal, I'll pick the more
interesting option over the boring one any day.
Now on to the specifics, starting with a quote from your message:
[I've read several Zine articles saying you shouldn't let others know
what
you're really thinking and instead you should weasel around until they
reveal their intentions. I think that's a bunch of crap. ]
I couldn't agree with you more. I've already given away a whole bunch
of
information that I'm supposed to be keeping secret about my playing
style.
My theory is that real alliances are based not so much on the mythical
"trust" that you hear so much about, but more on really understanding
each
other's needs and goals, and finding ways to achieve them for both of
you.
The best defense against a stab is having the other player KNOW that it
is
in their best interest to stay with you, and this can only happen when
you
understand where they are coming from.
I also agree with your assessment of playing France. I have played
England twice before, and both times the opening has been marred by
France
picking up some easy builds and using them to harass me for the next
several
years. Russia has started talking about the possibility of each taking
our
chunk of Scandanavia and then DMZing completely, and I think we should
continue to pursue that possibility. It frees up a couple of units for
us,
insures that Russia is concentrating on the South and making enemies for
himself there, and sets us up nicely for the time when we may need to
take
over the North for ourselves. If we can get that, and France moving
away
from us to being with, we should be able to get in and get out of the
Western triangle fast and be ahead of the other side.
Of course the disposition of the other countries in the East can also
have
a profound effect on the success of such a plan, so we should wait until
they've at least had a bit of a say to begin making concrete plans. I
still
have yet to hear from Italy or Turkey, and have only a very short
message
from Austria.
Finally, do you know anything about any of the other players from
previous
experience? Might as well take advantage of the lack of anonymity,
right?
I'm extremely sorry for any pain my slipup might cause you. France
seemed pretty good natured about it, letting me know of the mistake and
giving just a flippant "What, you're talking to people other than me?"
I'm sure you'll here more from him about it though...
Brent
From - Thu Sep 06 16:54:59 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Brent,
My apologies for the late start of mine.
I hope we will have a pleasent game with lots of fun press ofcourse
serious press is allowed too :-) We have the chance to be more hilarious
as we are not immediately stabbing each other. No common border means more
strategic press. At least I hope we can manage to accomplish that. I have
the feeling from your opening press that we can make some very interesting
philosophic discussions while we are not neighbours but we have common
neighbours.
> The last thing about me is that I tend to like trying new things and
> creative plans. All other things being equal, I'll pick the more
> interesting option over the boring one any day.
We have something in common. I like to try something different also.
Last time I played Turkey I pushed for AT alliance and it worked! I never
made it over the major stalemate line but neither did others :-) EI
alliance is not so often seen. Shall we start discussing how to do that?
> Italy is always an interesting country to watch in the early going,
> because of its ability to choose a direction.
It is way too early to say east or west but you will be informed.
Italy
Ps. Sorry about the shortness. I wanted to give you a quick reply as I
came a little late to gutsy.
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:00 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Keith,
First my apologies for this late reply.
AI alliance:
------------
Could you give me your opinion how? Why? Where 1st? Who is the #1 enemy?
> Hello, I hope that we will have a game-long alliance. I certainly cannot
> attack you early, or I will crumble under Russia and/or Turkey. If you
> attack me early, then you might have an initial success, but Turkey will
> come back to haunt you, likely having gotten the majority of my supply
> centers.
So you want to start war games immediately. That is fine. I agree with you
about the consequenses of early Italian attack against Austria.
> Since we both know this, I'm going to trust you implicitly. I hope you
> feel the same way about me. My first objective is to try to make sure
> that there is no R-T alliance. Then, since Turkey is the one that poses
> the most danger to us both, perhaps we can maneuver to strip him of
> Bulgaria and to get rid of some of his teeth. One he is under control
> like this, it is fairly easy to contain him, so we can turn our concerns
> elsewhere if Russia or France get to be too powerful too quickly.
Let me be honest. I find it hard to believe the 'trust you implicitly'
part. Although I really would like to see it happen. We have the same 1st
objective: to prevent RT alliance. The 2nd target sounds reasonable
also. I would not like to see strong Turkey.
> What do you think?
I have similar views with you. I would like to give you something to think
about: How do feel about central power alliance? What is your opinion
about 5th SC to Italy?
Italy
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:02 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Sorry for the lateness. I wasn't prepared that there will be high rated
players available so soon...
Thanks for the kind words to keep out of the Med. I will look forward to
that. I am willing to let you concentrate against EG. I am all ears to
FRI. Russia also talked about that.
> I'd like to propose long-lasting peace between our two nations. I
> will stay out of the Med and focus on England and Germany, and I hope
> that you will agree to concentrate on the east. If we don't have to
> worry about each other, I believe that we can each be more effective.
This seems reasonable are you also willing to promise to not build fleets
in Mar?
> Please let me know if you hear anything interesting from our mutual
> neighbor Germany. I will keep you informed as well.
So far nothing :-( Is he alive ? Have you heard anything?
Italy
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:05 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
> I am all ears to FRI. Russia also talked about that.
Excellent! I think FRI must start with you and Russia taking care of
AT while I handle the west (hopefully with a little help from Russia).
If we're serious about sticking with FRI long-term, you'll need to
push armies into Austria so that you can hit Germany (once the east is
resolved) rather than turning against me. :-)
> This seems reasonable are you also willing to promise to not build
> fleets in Mar?
Of course! There will be no fleets in Mar.
> So far nothing :-( Is he alive ? Have you heard anything?
I have received only one short message from the German. Hopefully he
is not ignoring you.
Rod
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:09 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> Thanks for the assistance! I have not yet heard from the Italian.
> Have you gotten any messages from him?
No, not yet.
> > Good luck with England and/or Germany.
>
> Thanks - I fear I might need it! :-)
You've had a premonition?
Austria
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:10 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
Correction, I just heard from Italy. He didn't mention anything about you.
Austria
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:12 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Stephen,
Well, I received a message that England accidentally sent to me rather
than you (Oops!), so if you haven't heard from him lately, I guess
that's why. :-) Basically, the gist was that y'all will DMZ
Scandinavia then turn against me.
Of course, pre-1901 negotiations are all B.S. anyway, so I shouldn't
put too much stock in this intercepted communique. We all know that
EG are attacking F, FG are attacking E, and EF are attacking G. ;-)
Still, it's easy to get paranoid in this game, so if I get bad vibes
it might be prudent for me to open to Bur - though I'd like to avoid
that if possible. Although, if I'm feeling paranoid, I might as well
move to Eng, and if that succeeds it gives us excellent position
against England. Would you like to try a Sealion?
Rod
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:14 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> Oh well, no real secrets in
> there, just the standard opening talk between England and Germany.
> He wants me to attack you, I want him to attack you, you want him
> to attack me, etc.
Yeah, that's what I figured. :-) Still, somebody has to be the
victim, eh? Shall we make plans for it to be Germany, or do you
prefer to "wait and see"? Of course, a lot depends on what we hear
from everybody else.
Rod
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:15 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> > Have you gotten any messages from him?
>
> No, not yet.
I just received some press from Italy. I suppose you'll hear from him
soon, if you haven't already.
> You've had a premonition?
Even better - England accidentally sent me a message intended for
Germany. Still, you have to expect that everybody is making plans
with everybody else to take out the other guy, so I suppose I
shouldn't get too paranoid. It's the opening moves that really count.
Rod
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:16 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> AI alliance:
> ------------
> Could you give me your opinion how? Why? Where 1st? Who is the #1 enemy?
I figure it will be Turkey. Russia seems interested in the idea, but of
course he will probably agree to anything.
> > Hello, I hope that we will have a game-long alliance. I certainly cannot
> > attack you early, or I will crumble under Russia and/or Turkey. If you
> > attack me early, then you might have an initial success, but Turkey will
> > come back to haunt you, likely having gotten the majority of my supply
> > centers.
>
> So you want to start war games immediately. That is fine. I agree with you
> about the consequenses of early Italian attack against Austria.
It is good that we see eye-to-eye then.
> Let me be honest. I find it hard to believe the 'trust you implicitly'
> part. Although I really would like to see it happen.
Well it is true. I won't defend against you initially unless I have some
reason to believe you would abandon your fear of Turkey. If I defend
against you right away, I will be eaten alive by Russia and/or Turkey.
> I have similar views with you. I would like to give you something to think
> about: How do feel about central power alliance? What is your opinion
> about 5th SC to Italy?
This sounds good. A strong German is good for Austria and Italy, since he
boarders our neighbors. I understand your concern about your fifth
center. This will depend on RUssia's reaction. If he moves against
Turkey, then it should be relatively easy for you to get a Turkish center
(Con or Smy). If not, then you would get Bul, or we could trade you
Greece if I am able to get Bul. I'm flexible. What do you think your
fifth center will be?
Austria
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:19 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to England in 'gutsy':
> The last thing about me is that I tend to like trying new things and
> creative plans. All other things being equal, I'll pick the more
> interesting option over the boring one any day.
Is that so? You shoudl come up with a plan to "accidently" send a
message to one country that you intend for another. Then you can see
whether the recipient tells you about it or not. You can also include
some false plans in such a message to throw people off. Have you tried this?
> I don't have much else to share with you yet, as I have yet to hear from
> either Italy or Turkey. When this changes, I'll be sure to let you know.
I have just heard from Italy, so you shoudl be receiving a message soon.
Turkey was here earlier, but I have not heard anything lately.
Austria
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:22 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
> Well, looks like I was wrong about the peak press time. Instead of
> picking up in the night hours over here, it got completely silent. I didn't
> receive a single message from the time I left work to now when I'm about to
> go back to work.
Yeah, after the initial spurt it did go a little quiet. Everyone
has written to me at least once now though.
> I did hear from Germany earlier in the afternoon. He sounds pretty
> amiable, he mentioned that you requested Sweden and said he was likely to
> agree to that, and that he is most likely going to start out heading West.
> Now I've just got to convince him to pick France as his target!
France tells me that you accidentally sent a message to him
that was supposed to go to Germany already talking about
the Scandanavian DMZ and suggesting you both attack him.
I'm not sure if you even noticed you'd done that, or indeed
if you actually did but that detail about SWE/DEN made me
think he's genuine.
I guess that alerts him to your plan at the very least.
> In my
> response I floated the idea of a DMZ in Scandanavia once each of us has
> picked up our center there, so we'll see if there's any reaction to that.
Ah, that would probably be the message that France recieved I
guess.
> The one-line message I
> received from Austria confirms that talking may not be his strong point. Do
> with that what you will.
He's been fairly elequent with me so far, but it's interesting
that most of his sucess comes from nopress. The only nopress game
I played I had to quit half way through because it was a holiday
so I found a replacement so that I could take over when I got
back but he went abandoned for me. Doh. I can't get into
the vermont group for another three games or so now. Didn't
like nopress much, doesn't seem a lot of point.
I guess he just doesn't think he has to talk to you a great
deal because you're so far away.
France suggested to me that I move Mos up to StP this spring
and possibly deny you Nwy in the fall with it. Lorks a lordy,
I hadn't even thought about that before, always just assumed
England had one guarenteed build like everyone else. I'm pretty
sure I'll need that army in the south though so no need for
you to worry, just note that you may have created an enemy by
sending that press to the wrong destination.
Adam..........
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:24 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
> I haven't heard from him either. Still, I doubt that a taciturn
> player would achieve a high rating, so I don't think we should write
> him off just yet. After all, the game just started less than 24 hours
> ago. However, negotiation might be difficult if he is rarely online
> at the same time as others.
He's been in touch now, obviously. Seems to want me to write
a strategy article on the Russian Italian allience more or
less but was otherwise fairly enthusiastic about IFR. I'll
reply to him and see what I can come up with, though how
he imagines I could know what supply centers would go to
which powers before S1901 moves have even gone out I
can't imagine.
> Well, I just received a message from England that he intended to
> send to Germany (OOPS!), indicating that they're planning to DMZ
> Scandinavia with you then take me out, so it looks like I have my
> work cut out for me.
I'm always very doubtful that 'accidental' really means accidental,
especially with experienced players. I can't think what he'd gain
from that particular mistake though. Perhaps if you believe he's
teamed up with Germany then he thinks you'd be less likely to
try and convince the German to go the other way. Very bad mistake
if that's what he's thinking I'd have said. Surely you'll just
try even harder for German help in taking him out now?
It is true that the three of us have talked a little about trying
to DMZ Scandanavia after we've claimed a center each from the
area. I doubt we could get it to work to be honest, but it was
me that first suggested it since I did so well out of sharing
a completely DMZed Russia with Turkey when I was England in
Crispbills lately. I think I said something like "Having an
area you just don't have to think about or defend apart from
watching for violations of the zone is like having a motorbike
in a marathon"
I can't see how we'd build enough trust to make that work with
Swe/Den/Nwy though. It was fairly easy with Russia in Crispbills
because we could pay each others units to vacate (it was payola)
and defend the zone with cash if it was voilated. Also fleets
in StP and Sev don't pose any threat. Still, we'll see.
> OTOH, you can't really believe what people
> say before the first turn anyway, so it's just as likely that Germany
> is stringing along England rather than me.
This is true, for what it's worth Germany tells me that he
hasn't made up his mind yet but that he felt fairly secure about
being able to choose at whim.
> I don't suppose you'd consider opening north? If England stabs me in
> the Channel and you move Mos-StP, no builds for England! That'd be a
> real shame, wouldn't it? ;-)
I've never seen it done to be honest, whenever I've seen A Mos
go north Germany takes such fright that he bounces Russia from
Swe in the fall which would be v.bad. I also suspect that I'll
need the army in the south since that seems to be the most
unresolved area. I will consider building F StP(nc) at the adjustments
if things look really bad for you though.
Adam.......
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:29 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
> I hope you can forgive my late start.
Of course, this is exactly why the first negotiation period
is so long (often painfully long if things get resolved
quickly).
> France gave me a not about FIR also. Like you say it is interesting
> indeed. Let's talk about this more after we have talked about some general
> things, ok?
Sure. It would be good to know what Eric and Keith in particular
are saying to you. The Austrian asked me about going after Turkey
but the Turk has been strangely quiet and non-commital, we haven't
even talked about the Black Sea yet, which is something I must
fix soon.
> I would like to hear your opinion about RI co-operation in general. I
> don't mean gutsy but in generally. What would be the most desirable way of
> expansion? How would we share the supplies?
If I were in heaven as I or R and things were going exactly as
planned from the start, the opening would look similar to a
Lepanto to everyone's eyes but our own. Italy and Austria would
open in such a way as to try and land an army in Smy ASAP,
possibly even with Italy convincing Austria to let him have
Gre rather than Tun in 1901. The more Austria believes in the
Lepanto the better.
Russia's main part in 1901 would be to make sure that the
Turk didn't open with F Ank - Con. Usually that would be
done by arranging a bounce in Bla. With F Ank delayed by
at least six months that way the Italians and Austrians
should have time to gain control of the Med before Turkey
can get moving.
As Turkey goes down, Ank and Rum probably go to the Russian
with Italy taking the rest of Turkey and Gre. Bul and Ser
become Austrian. The key is to turn on Austria Just BEFORE
Turkey is completely destroyed. Austria can't hope to
defend himself from RI's combined 12 centers with his
five units, and he'll be completely surrounded on all
sides.
> Who would be the possible 3rd
> power we would take advantage as 'ally'? What alliances between other
> nations we would not like to see?
Well, obviously I've already mentioned that Austria would
be just dandy as a tempory help taking own Turkey. In fact
I'm not convinced RI would work at all without either
Austria or Turkey falling into their trap. I just have a
preference for Austria.
The main thing we wouldn't want to see is the Western Tripple
managing to quickly knock one of the three players out and
turn east before we were almost done with Austria. Luckily
there's a way around this, if Austria and Italy are working
well in the south then Russia's involvement need not be
complete and a build or two in StP can usually either give
the English or Germans enough hassle that they have to
lay off the French for a while or else help defend Germany
or England against the other two. If Russia can prop up
the odd one out for long enough, the western triangle should
be nice and gummed up with lots of anger when we're ready
to turn to the west.
> Then if you could try to fit those thoughts into gutsy that would be nice
> :-) To answer this we must of course talk more with others.
The general setup seems quite favorable to me. France has
apparently recieved a message from England which was supposed
to be addressed to the German. This detailed the E/G plan to
go after France. That's just perfect in the West since it
keeps France from hassling you in the Med and it's easy
enough to distract England and Germany over Scandanavia
if they start to look like they're doing too well.
Meanwhile, Austria has already approached me saying he'd
be happy to go after Turkey a little (I'm assuming he said
the same to you since he hinted at trying to get you involved)
Turkey hasn't said a lot of any substance, as I've mentioned,
but we did breifly talk about trying to do a Juggernaught
and his demands that I concentrate almost all my power in StP
were way too high, even if that were my prefered option which
it isn't.
Finally, Turkey has the higest JPDR and so has a natural
target painted to his side in this game. I'm loathe to
prove the point of the game (that non-gunboat tends to
leave the highest ranked power as a target) but when
everything else fits so neatly. Who can argue?
> My personal view is that RI is very natural (if there is natural alliance
> in Diplomacy) alliance. We have common neighbours but we are not bordering
> each other.
Exactly, not only is it faily easy for us to work together
and then turn on the guy in the middle, we're not in a
position to stab each other at all until well into the mid-game
at least since we don't even have any units in proximity.
That's my sales-pitch anyway, I'd like to give it a good
go and see what happens at the very least. When I've tried
it before Italy got scared of my reputation oddly enough.
These things happen when you play with newbies FTF.
What do you say? What have Keith and Eric been saying to you?
Does my discription of the Western Triangle ring true with
whatever you've heard?
We don't really NEED France, but it would be good to
prop him up for a while if he starts to fall and it
would be good if he doesn't turn eastwards and start
giving you jip in the Med so agreeing to his RIF
aliance is quite a good excuse for all the things we
would have probably done anyway.
Adam.............
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:31 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
How are things going with your web of communication then?
News from here is that the West looks like it'll quite
probably be EG V F, which is good for the Juggernaught
if we go that way since it points all their units south
west just before I start building StP and screwing up
all their plans.
I've noticed that we haven't talked about any specific
moves yet. The Black sea is obviously the most akward
of the possibilites. Traditionally a juggernaught would
bounce there to throw off suspicion of what's happening
down in the corner here, is that what you'd want to do?
Austria has said I can have Rumania so I guess he must
be trying for Ser and maybe Gre as Austria usually does.
That should leave me okay for taking Rum even if we
bounce in Bla so it's more or less up to you there.
What have the other players been saying to you? I heard
second hand news of an 'accidental' leak from E to F
(intended for G) which talked about EG taking France on.
I guess those messages are probably going out from
most people right now though, it's never easy to know
what to believe before S1901 moves.
Italy woke up late but seems fairly up to date now,
he's wondering whether to try and grow fast or to
take a slow and steady route while not giving much
else away (so not giving ANYTHING away basically).
Keith has tried to get me to agree to a bounce in Gal
followed by a possible join attack on you, and I've
been replying in kind but wondering if the Bounce is
the best idea since maybe A Ukr would be more useful
than A War aginst Turkey (and indeed against A, heh).
What do you think we should do about Bla then?
Adam...........
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:39 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
Yes indeed, not even 24 hours in and I'm already acting the total
newbie. I can't believe that I would make a mistake like that in the
worst possible situation. There wasn't anything in there I absolutely
needed to keep from France, but it still makes me look bad. Oh well, I
resent the message to Germany, who by now as assuredly heard of my
mistake and is going to be none too happy with me. I'll let you know
when I hear back from him.
Brent
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:40 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Austria in 'gutsy':
[Is that so? You shoudl come up with a plan to "accidently" send a
message to one country that you intend for another. Then you can see
whether the recipient tells you about it or not. You can also include
some false plans in such a message to throw people off. Have you tried
this?]
Word really travels fast, doesn't it? Unfortunately for me the
accidentally wasn't in quotations. Oh well, the letter was just my
standard introduction and didn't really contain any damaging
information. France knows that I'm going to be negotiating with
Germany. Still, definitely not the way I wanted to start out the game.
No word yet from Turkey, and only the standard fare from Italy. Any
news from the East thats even half as exciting as my screwups in the
West?
Brent
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:43 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Dear Germany,
Just kidding.
[Still, somebody has to be the victim, eh? Shall we make plans for it
to be Germany, or do you prefer to "wait and see"? ]
Well, if you don't now think me a complete screwup, I'd be glad to
start making some initial plans with you. I have a feeling that
Germany's reaction to my mistake will be none too pleasant, so I may not
be left with a whole lot of choice when it comes to allies. What kind
of plan did you have in mind? A 1902 joint attack? A "triple" with
Germany focusing East? An "attack the stupid Englishmen" that where you
miraculously switch sides at the right moment? I'm up for just about
anything, provided we canlay the proper groundwork for it elsewhere.
Brent
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:44 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> What kind of plan did you have in mind? A 1902 joint attack?
That's probably the simplest plan. We act "friendly" and pick up
neutrals in 1901, then get down to business in 1902.
> A "triple" with Germany focusing East?
That would be ideal, but Germany has already told me that he doesn't
think too highly of the Western Triple.
> An "attack the stupid Englishmen" that where you
> miraculously switch sides at the right moment?
Ooh, devious - I like it! However, it might be difficult to pull it
off properly. Let's see what we hear from Germany, and determine
whether we can turn his disposition to our advantage.
Rod
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:48 2001
Broadcast message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey in 'gutsy':
Name: Eric Hunter
Age: 40, (41 in nine days).
Work: Systems Analyst for the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board.
(I'm not a Computer Geek, but I play one at work. 8-)
Personal: Married, (Karen), with a seven year old son,
(Ian,(No, not because I'm a Mott the Hoople fan. 8-)).
Hobbies: Reading, and Diplomacy ;^}
I started playing F2F Dip around 1987, and on the
Judges in 1991. I came to Dip with a Theatre and Role-
Playing Game background, though I also played card
games, board games, and a variety of other Avalon Hill
games. (I wrote on article on how to play Crete for
the "Advanced Civilization" Gamer's Guide, in fact.)
As a result of my theatre/rpg background, I tend to
value "story-line" in a Dip game, more than "the
shortest path to victory", and try to establish a
"character" (or characters) to lead my Power. Playing
non-gunboat is obviously going to make that somewhat
more challenging.
By nature, I am a "strong-alliance" player, rather
than a "balance-of-power", or a "cut-throat" one, but
18 Centers is the goal to shoot for, and at times an
alliance shift is necessary to accomplish that, or to
keep someone else from accomplishing it. I play almost
exclusively Standard Dip, (perhaps half a dozen of my
50 games were variants), and mostly Partial-Press,
(though I've got two solos and a 3WD out of four
Broadcast Only games.)
Gutsy is one of three partial-press games I'm in
currently, including 'titleist' on USIN, and that's
really too many games, especially considering the JDPR
level of 'titleist' and 'gutsy', but since I was
involved in the movement to make 'titleist' non-gunboat,
and the r.g.d. discussion that led to 'gutsy', I felt
honor-bound to join you. As a result, you may not hear
from me as often, or as quickly, as you would normally,
but you will hear from me regularly, and I look forward
to hearing from you.
Eric the Turk.
(a.k.a. Grand Vizier Jafar)
PS There is a weak correlation between JDPR and success
in an individual game, but given that we're all within
a standard deviation of each other, (except for England
and Russia, who with only 5 games, aren't accurately
rated,yet, anyway), picking targets based on JDPR is
likely to be counterproductive. Talk to everyone, and
decide who fits with your playing style, and who
represents a danger to you, and make your alliance
decisions on that basis.
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:50 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> I'm always very doubtful that 'accidental' really means accidental,
> especially with experienced players.
In this case, I'm inclined to believe it was unintentional.
Regardless, I think it's wise to not let it affect my planning
too much - except that I might be slightly more paranoid than
usual. :-)
> for what it's worth Germany tells me that he
> hasn't made up his mind yet but that he felt fairly secure about
> being able to choose at whim.
That's good to hear. I guess I'll just have to ensure that his whim
favors *me*, eh?
> whenever I've seen A Mos
> go north Germany takes such fright that he bounces Russia from
> Swe in the fall which would be v.bad.
Unless he agrees to it as part of a concerted attack on England. One
possibility is Bal-Swe, StP-Nwy (bounce) in F01, then StP S Swe-Nwy in
S02, with Swe going to Germany in F02.
> I also suspect that I'll
> need the army in the south since that seems to be the most
> unresolved area.
Of course, I can't expect you to expend resources in the north if
things look tricky in the south. You'd have to have a solid alliance
with A or T to open Mos-StP, but there's no way to really know who's
with whom before the first moves.
Anyway, I think things will work out OK. Let's stay in touch.
Rod
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:53 2001
Broadcast message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France in
'gutsy':
> By nature, I am a "strong-alliance" player, rather
> than a "balance-of-power", or a "cut-throat" one
Uh, yeah - I'm a "strong-alliance" player too! And I *never* stab my
ally.
> picking targets based on JDPR is
> likely to be counterproductive.
No self-interest behind that one, eh?
;-)
Rod
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:54 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to England in 'gutsy':
> Any news from the East thats even half as exciting as my screwups in the
> West?
Not really. Italy doesn't seem to trust me very much, already, which is
a bad sign. I haven't heard much from Turkey. Russia seems too
agreeable, which makes me suspicious.
Austria
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:55 2001
Broadcast message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey in 'gutsy':
>Broadcast message from Rod Spade as France in'gutsy':
I Wrote > >
> > By nature, I am a "strong-alliance" player, rather
> > than a "balance-of-power", or a "cut-throat" one
>
>Uh, yeah - I'm a "strong-alliance" player too! And I *never* stab my ally.
I didn't say I was a care-bear... ;^} and I
seem to recall being Germany in 'over1201' and
allying with you as England. If you never stab
an ally, how is it you ended up in Hol/Kie/Den,
Rod? 8-)
> > picking targets based on JDPR is
> > likely to be counterproductive.
>
>No self-interest behind that one, eh?
Certainly there was self-interest there,
but that doesn't mean that it would be wise of
Russia to ally with Austria just because my
JDPR was 15 points higher than Keith's in mid-
June. (Of course, England, Germany and Italy
should all gang up on you because your JDPR is
higher than theirs. ;^)
Eric the Turk.
From - Thu Sep 06 16:55:57 2001
Broadcast message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France in
'gutsy':
Well, I guess I'll go next.
Hi, I'm Rod, and - I'm a Dip player.
I was introduced to The Game in High School (late 80's) and played a
few F2F games with friends, but never really grasped the full nature
of the game. I purchased a copy and played a few games on weekends,
but it was always hard to find six others who wanted to spend eight
hours hunched over a board. My senior year, I discovered that playing
one turn per day was ideal, and we played a couple of games that way.
I started playing Judge PBEM three years ago, and liked it a lot. I
delved into The Pouch and rec.games.diplomacy and learned much and
sharpened my game. However, I was something of a carebear
draw-mongerer, and managed to get my rating somewhere around 1200
with a bunch of three-way draws.
So I joined "over1201" with the intent of sharpening my blade. I was
eliminated in the end-game, but I learned a lot. I achieved my first
(and only) solo shortly thereafter (in a non-gunboat game, no less!),
and that boosted my JDPR by exactly 200 points. Whether that's my
"true" rating or an anomaly has yet to be determined.
I am currently involved in two other partial-press games, both of
which are nearing the end. In one, I'm shooting for a win, but will
likely have to settle for a three-way. In the other, I am about to
be eliminated. I'm also in a chaos no-press game, and I'm waiting for
a SailHo game to start. That's more games than I'm used to, but I
just couldn't pass up the opportunity to face y'all in "gutsy".
In 1999 I played Dip at the WBC (former AvalonCon) after not playing
any F2F for several years. I got slapped around in the first two
games, but managed a three-way in the final round. That boosted my
confidence enough that I returned in 2000 when WBC hosted the World
Dip Championship. I played a game with Allan Calhamer, fell for
the legendary John Smythe's "game-long allies" line (he went on to
win that game), and made some mistakes against the imminent world
champion Simon Bouton in the final round. It was quite an experience,
and I returned to WBC this year and had a very good time. I prefer
PBEM, but there's nothing like tournament-level F2F for getting the
adrenaline going. :-)
Rod
From - Thu Sep 06 16:56:02 2001
Broadcast message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France in
'gutsy':
> I seem to recall being Germany in 'over1201' and
> allying with you as England. If you never stab
> an ally, how is it you ended up in Hol/Kie/Den,
> Rod? 8-)
That was *purely* defensive! Besides, that scoundrel in Italy tricked
me into it! I *lost* that game, remember?
> (Of course, England, Germany and Italy
> should all gang up on you because your JDPR is
> higher than theirs. ;^)
No, no, no - they want me and Keith to help them take care of *you*!
They're not going to let you pull the wool over their eyes.
;-)
Rod
From - Thu Sep 06 16:56:05 2001
Broadcast message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France in
'gutsy':
Addendum:
> I was introduced to The Game in High School (late 80's) and played a
> few F2F games with friends, but never really grasped the full nature
> of the game.
This next part was in college, not high school:
> I purchased a copy and played a few games on weekends,
> but it was always hard to find six others who wanted to spend eight
> hours hunched over a board. My senior year, I discovered that playing
> one turn per day was ideal, and we played a couple of games that way.
Eric wrote:
> I came to Dip with a Theatre and Role-
> Playing Game background, though I also played card
> games, board games, and a variety of other Avalon Hill
> games.
I've recently taken a liking to the games of Sid Sackson. (See
http://www.webnoir.com/bob/sackson.htm) Acquire is a classic, and I
also enjoy Metropolis.
While in college, I got a book on Bridge from the library, made a
comprehensive cheat sheet for a bidding system, and managed to get
a few friends to play it occasionally. Bridge is the pinnacle of
card games, but unfortunately I haven't had a chance to play it in
several years.
Rod
From - Thu Sep 06 16:56:11 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
>I love to talk, my biggest pet peeve [is] silent people. I doubt it will
>be much of an issue in [this] game
I've played in a few of the Top_100 rated games,
and even there you get strange silences. It's more
often than not, access trouble, "real-life", or "too
many games", but it can still be frustrating.
>I've been known in previous games to pick my opponents
>almost completely on the volume (and entertainment value) of their press.
*nod* "Kill the silent guy!", is usually a good
strategy.
>I try to respond to people as quickly as posssible.
I do too, but my Dip load right now may slow that
somewhat.
>I like trying new things and creative plans.
Have you considered an ET Alliance from Day 1? ;^}
It actually could work, and allying with your neigbor's
neighbor can be both a safe and effective stategy.
Eric the Turk.
From - Thu Sep 06 17:17:09 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Ah...those magic words: Sealion. Mmmm...like a good cup of coffee in the
morning, wakes you right up.
I'm up for it if you are, you're the one taking the initial risk. My moves
are pretty innocuous; bre-eng is a little more antagonistic. I think it
would be tremendously successful, but it's your call. I'm doing the same
moves either way.
If you do decide on Sealion, are you willing to order par - pic instead of
par - bur? That would make me feel a whole lot better.
I get the feeling the east will remain undecided for a little bit, but if a
strong pair does come out quick, we had better be ready. With Keith sitting
in Austria and Eric in Turkey, anything could happen, but I'm putting my
money on an RT. If the juggernaut does roll, FG is far better suited to
defend than either EF or EG (or the triple for that matter).
Oh yeah, no need to get paranoid yet; there's plenty of time for that later
in the game. :)
Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Thu Sep 06 19:14:16 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> Ah...those magic words: Sealion. Mmmm...like a good cup of coffee
> in the morning, wakes you right up.
Yeah, I thought that might get your attention. :-)
> I'm up for it if you are, you're the one taking the initial risk.
> My moves are pretty innocuous; bre-eng is a little more antagonistic.
It's always nice to be able to make a "neutral" opening and get a feel
for the board before pulling out the knife, but there's something to
be said for starting off aggressively as well. I'm not totally
decided yet, but knowing that you're in favor of Sealion should help
me make up my mind. ;-)
> If you do decide on Sealion, are you willing to order par - pic
> instead of par - bur? That would make me feel a whole lot better.
I guess I'm not so paranoid as to open to both Eng and Bur, so I'll
definitely do Par-Pic if we're going for the Sealion.
> If the juggernaut does roll, FG is far better suited to
> defend than either EF or EG (or the triple for that matter).
I agree. England is good only in Scandinavia, whereas FG can span the
entire board.
Rod
From - Thu Sep 06 19:14:22 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
> The fun has begun and my mailbox is flooding :-)
Venice is like that... (The canals and all. Try moving to Rome, they
have hills (seven of them, anyway. 8-))
> I hope we can all have a pleasent fight.
(That's "pleasant". (Requested English help.))
> > to take him out first, then finish off the high-low JDPR pair. Then
> > the Americans will gang up on the Fin.
>
> Finn! I am a Finn! I live in Finland and I speak Finnish.
*chuckle* I had a friend in college whom I played role-playing games
with, and she had a fighter named, Paavo Nurmi, The Flying Finn. (He
was always swinging into battle on a rope like Errol Flynn, in some
1930's Swashbuckler movie. 8-)
Obligatory Dip Reference: An IT alliance is unusual, but it can work if
I build Armies and you build Fleets, and agree to DMZ Ion. (An early
attack by Italy on France with English (and some perhaps some German)
help has the advantage of getting you into the Atlantic before the West
resolves.)
Eric.
From - Thu Sep 06 21:30:36 2001
Broadcast message from bwarner34 at home.com as England in 'gutsy':
OK, me next. My name is Brent Warner. I was first introduced to
Diplomacy during high school when a friend and I took the 1 hour trip up to
GenCon in Milwaukee (escorted by my mom of course). I played in an
introductory game and found the game pretty interesting, but nothing else
much happened until sophomore year in college. It was then that I found a
group of people and played my first FtF game. I loved it, and soon after
found the Pouch and embarked on my Diplomacy career.
I was a mediocre player, but my real breakthrough came when I participated
in a game called teachme. In that game, a bunch of inexperienced players
were paired up with experienced coaches who gave us tips on our press and
tactics throughout the game. While I ended up losing to an Italian solo,
this game really improved my game. As it neared completion, I entered
another game, and it resulted in my first solo (as Austria). My second solo
(as Russia) came in a recently finished game that was my first foray into
the Vermont Group. I loved being able to play a game without any
abandonments! I am currently involved in two other games, both gunboat, but
my center counts currently are 15 and 12 so they are looking good.
I have also recently taken up GMing games, and am in the process of
mastering teachme2, the sequel to the game which I loved so much. A new
batch of 7 players are teamed up with a new batch of 7 coaches, and its been
quite an interesting game so far.
This game was my idea, which I hope you all remember before you think
about eliminating me. =) And no, I don't make a habit of sending messages
to the wrong person, I blame it entirely on the time I was writing (which
unfortunately wasn't that late, so its not a very good excuse)! Anyways, I
hope everyone has fun, and that I come out of it a better player, regardless
of the result!
Brent
From - Thu Sep 06 21:30:38 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> I've barely played Austria or Germany. Those center-board
> powers look scary. My one FTF experience as Germany
> saw me implode fairly rapidly. There are just so
> many directions to look. I like a side of the board
> power, perhaps I play best with my back to the wall!
Central Powers do require a higher degree of paranoia, and I'm
not sure I'd want to play them F2F, but in a 48 or 72 hour Judge
game, as long as you write to everyone regularly, they're not too
bad. There are stylistic differences in playing Germany and Turkey,
though.
> If everyone on the board writes and replies to press, it'll
> be the first time I've played a game where that's happened!
People tend to go silent even in high-level games, though
it's usually "real-life", too many games, or access problems.
It does seem that the more you write, the more likely you
are to succeed, though.
> > The Juggernaut can work.
>
> Certainly! I'd have to be able to use Rum, at least temporarily,
Yes, we probably wouldn't shift it to Turkey until you made
gains against Germany or England.
> > I'm usually up early.
>
> I hate mornings, can't write a bit of anything before midday.
Must be the coffee. ;^}
> How are things going with your web of communication then?
Meaningless notes from E & G, a discussion about our living
20 miles apart with France, nothing from Italy, and a request to
open Ank-Bla from Austria.
> I've noticed that we haven't talked about any specific
> moves yet.
Well, it is early, yet.
> The Black sea is obviously the most awkward
> of the possibilities. Traditionally a juggernaught would
> bounce there to throw off suspicion of what's happening
> down in the corner here, is that what you'd want to do?
There are basically three options. Bounce, or Sev-Arm,
Ank-Bla, Smy-Ank followed by Bla S Ank-Arm with you
disbanding the Fleet and building in the north, or RF Sev-Bla,
then RF Bla-Con, then RF Con-Aeg to help me push toward
the Atlantic. The problem with the bounce is that it leaves
your Fleet there waiting to stab me someday, and slows my
progress westward. The problem with RF Sev-Bla-Con is
convincing you to move out of Con, once you're there. ;^}
At this level most everyone would recognize Sev-Arm as
the "Slingshot Juggernaut", and react to the Juggernaut, but
it still might be the way to go, depending on what I/A seem
to be planning.
Eric the Turk.
From - Thu Sep 06 21:30:49 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> > I actually have an AT 2-way Draw to my credit. 8-)
>
> How did you do it, and what would we need to do?
I was Turkey, (long before I'd even heard of the Pouch), and Austria was
a care-bear role-player. I established a story-line that he bought into,
and
by the time we had eliminated everyone else, attacking each other would
have been a major violation of the roles we had established.
I doubt that we could trust each other quite that much, but if you build all
Armies, and head North, and I build nothing but Fleets, and head West,
we could both push across the stalemate line as the Western Powers
expect us to attack each other.
Eric the Turk.
From - Thu Sep 06 21:30:50 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> I doubt that we could trust each other quite that much, but if you build all
> Armies, and head North, and I build nothing but Fleets, and head West,
> we could both push across the stalemate line as the Western Powers
> expect us to attack each other.
Oh, well I can handle this part. I don't anticipate building any fleets
any time soon. The only reason I would need to build a fleet would be to
attack you, if Italy goes west, or to attack Italy once you were finished
off.
The trick in an A-T alliance is to get you *around* Italy, without your
being tempted to stop off in Austria after you've gotten an Italian
center or two.
Austria
From - Thu Sep 06 21:30:53 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Thanks for writing and don't worry about the "press to f" thing. I do that
all the time; well not that often, but enough to be embarassing.
Okay, I'll start from the back of your letter and work forward. Regarding
the other players, here's what I know:
I've played Keith before in both press and no-press (he's a big no-press
player as am I). Tactically, he's top notch and Austria is one of his
*favorite* countries to play. He also plays a mean Italy. The one press
game I played with him, he was Russia and I was England. He got lackey-dogs
in Germany and Italy to do his dirty work for him and soloed with little
problem. He could have easily been stopped, but GI adopted a "it's better
to work with the winner than the loser" philosopy. Not one of my better
games.
Keith is also top of the YARS ranking if that means anything to anyone.
And, his press style is the exact opposite of yours. He writes often, but
includes very little content. I'm glad he's Austria and I'm Germany.
I've played Eric before and mastered a couple of games in which he played.
Again, he's top notch. He soloed in the game unortho1 a couple of years ago
in which I was England and he was Germany. The variant rule there was that
each player adopt some sort of unorthodox dip style and see how they do. If
you like creative games, you would have loved this one. Eric allowed the
other players to vote on his moves; absolutely brilliant! He sent out
ballots, maintained a tally, and disqualified votes based on some lame, but
funny reason. And then he did what he wanted anyhow. It got everyone *way*
off their game.
I've heard many good things about Rod Spade, but have never played with him
or mastered one of his games. So far in this game, I'm impressed with his
direct style and his skill with broadcasts. Good broadcasts are hard to do.
Rod seems to have the knack; so does Eric for that matter.
The other players, Adam in Russia and the Finnish fellow, Raine, playing
Italy I don't know at all. Adam and I have chatted a bit (and both like the
Scandanavian DMZ idea, by the way), but Raine and I are yet to connect.
Seems he talks more to his immediate neighbors.
As for me, I must admit, I prefer the no-press game. I've played a bunch of
ftf and a bunch of no-press, but have yet to get the hang of PBEM press
games. I've done pretty well overall, but look to improve.
The other thing you said that I'd really like to respond to is:
> My theory is that real alliances are based not so much on the mythical
> "trust" that you hear so much about, but more on really understanding
> each other's needs and goals, and finding ways to achieve them for
> both of you. The best defense against a stab is having the other player
> KNOW that it is in their best interest to stay with you, and this can only
> happen when you understand where they are coming from.
I could not have said it better. That is the basic way I approach dip. If
we both approach the game that way, I'm sure we will do quite well together.
Oh yeah, before I forget, I need to respond to Russia soon about Sweden.
Where do you stand? I'm inclined to let him have it and hope he heads
south. I also think that gives us the best chance of moving on France.
And, just so you know, I probably won't move on Burgundy quite yet. As
Germany, I believe in the "wait and see" approach. I hope that's allright
with you.
Please write when you can. Like I have to ask. :)
- Steve
From - Thu Sep 06 21:30:56 2001
Broadcast message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia in 'gutsy':
> Hi, I'm Rod, and - I'm a Dip player.
Man, you Americans are so good at this self confessional thing...
Hello, I'm Adam and I'm a borderline alcoholic and also,
right now, fairly drunk and about to be a bit stoned. My
favourite band are the Super Furry Animals and my favourite
colour is Purple. That's Colour with a U, obvbiously.
The reason I have the rating to get into this game
is that I convinced a few of my friends to get into
a judge game with me and they preceded to not bother to
write press or co-ordinate their moves with each other
at all so I managed a solo in 'house11' on some judge
or another. These people are slightly better at FTF play,
but they suck either way. They want me to join another
game but I made them give me two weeks to get this one
underway first.
Other than a solo in that game, my only other experience
with a solo's is the Payola game which I finished just
recently. Where my first solo felt like it was just the
fault of the other players not really wanting to play,
the Payola game felt like it was just luck of the draw.
I outbid by only one AGP the people who really deserved
the victory. Or at least another year anyway. You can
check the broadcasts for the frankly odd situation
which lead to that on the DPJudge.
I first started playing Diplomacy as an A-level student
(16 to 18 years old for those Mericans) and all our games
ended neither in draws nor solos, they ended in drunken
play-station sessions and collapse on the floor. Occasionly
in mock-violence.
After university, which I spent mostly in the pub and in
various parties, I ended up programming games for a slave
driver who demanded 18 hour days for less than per-hour
minimum pay these days.
After /that/ I remembered this Network thing I'd been in
contact with a little, during my odd sober moments, and
decided I could earn more there doing easy work than I
could in Games (which I was frequently sacked from) doing
20 hour days. I now work 4 days a week for thrice my
wage in those game-programming days so occasionally I'll be
too lazy to consult a computer and reply to press. Especially
on Wednesdays, which is generally my day off.
When I found the network, I looked for Diplomacy on it since
it seemed to me it was a game waiting for the network. Seems
I was right, so I started to play and my only elimination so
far was a chaos game which I was too overworked to play
properly. I think I'm good at drawing though.
I have, to my shame, one abandonment to my name. I was in a
no-press game (I wasn't enjoying it, what the hell is the point
of no-press?) at the time of my holiday. I arranged a replacement
to cover my absence and he went abandoned for me while I was
away. I have to play another three games to get into the Vermont
group as a result. He's one of the guy's I soloed over since he
never wrote any press. As did none of the others.
If anyone is interested, I found Payola a lot of fun,
even though it suffered more abandonments that the rest
of my PBEM games put together. I like the way it eliminates
the stalemate lines, but I dislike the way it makes those
lines feel random, dice in a game is bad.
So I basically put my high(ish) rating down to a bunch
of idiots I played with. I suspect that's true for all
of us frankly and that all we're really showing is dedication
rather than skill. Press Wins Games. Never consulting
you allies, or enemies, makes for a quick loss.
Having said that, and given that we all have shown enough
dedication to at least draw small, I suspect this game
will be the first real test of skill and diplomacy that
I've played in. As opposed to a test of tenacity and
patience.
As I thought, if you're playing the ratings game, you're
in the wrong climate. Reputation matters to newbies and
losers, to the enlightened it measures luck as much
as anything else.
Adam..........
From - Thu Sep 06 21:30:57 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Nothing really new to report. "Hi, you're a long way from me." letters
from E & G, nothing yet from Italy. I wrote to them all this afternoon, so
hopefully, I hear from them tomorrow. Keith sent me a couple of short
notes, (all that NoPress experience, I guess 8-), and Adam has been
easily winning the "Press Volume" battle. I hear that Brent sent you a,
"Hey, Germany, let's gang up on France!" letter. 8-) I hate when that
happens! ;^)
Eric the Turk.
From - Thu Sep 06 21:30:59 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> The trick in an A-T alliance is to get you *around* Italy, without your
> being tempted to stop off in Austria after you've gotten an Italian
> center or two.
*nod* It would probably require moving your Fleet to Alb/Adr once
you took Rum, and letting me put Fleets in Gre, Aeg, and EMed to force
Ion early. Of course, if you encourage IE vs. F, that would make my
getting to Tun and Nap easier, as well.
Eric the Turk.
From - Thu Sep 06 21:31:00 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Good to get your letter. I imagine the press will really fly in this game,
but it is good to hear from you nonetheless. I really like your broadcasts
so far, too; keep at it.
If you agree to keep out of Silesia and Prussia, I think we have a deal.
And, you are quite right about the sharks to the south. Everyone on this
board is quite good, but Keith and Eric are the tops. I'm glad I'm sitting
safely tucked away over here in Germany.
If you need anything beyond the Swedish build, please let me know. I
probably won't be asking for any St Pete fleets any time soon, but it's good
to know they're available if needed.
Also, leaving Scandanavia open in a couple of years is totally naive and
unworkable (I'm surprised Brent would even suggest that). I, myself, will
not leave Denmark open especially with an English fleet in the North Sea.
Besides, where would A Den or F Swe go? Back home and sit? Doesn't make
sense. If anything, I'd like to see your fleet in Norway or the Skag (or
even the North Sea for that matter). Let's keep talking.
The only piece of advice I can give is watch Galicia. Keith loves playing
Austria (and he's damn good at it); I have personally witnessed him issue
Vie - Gal in 4(!) games I have either played in or mastered. Eric's good
too, but I've never seen him play Turkey...so I'm not much help there.
Write when you have the chance.
- Stephen
From - Thu Sep 06 21:31:01 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Yea, good short response Keith; to the point. I like that. I get
long-winded some times and get *way* too caught up in writing long press.
If you have anyting to share, I'd appreciate it. If I have anything to
share, I'll pass it on. Right now, I don't.
As you pointed out, the key for AG is a peaceful border and similar growth.
If we each are strong, the other need not worry about their back. At least
that's how I feel.
Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Thu Sep 06 21:31:02 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> I agree. England is good only in Scandinavia, whereas FG can span
> the entire board.
There you go again. LOL. I knew you had a grand scheme. :-)
Okay, the first turn will set us up and the second turn will separate the
men from the boys. I sincerely hope you take the Channel; France is a true
joy to play when bre-eng succeeds right off.
Or, if it's Belgium you really want, just let me know. My first inclination
is to consider it German territory, but under Sealion, it's strictly French.
If we agree to Sealion, you can have Belgium as long as I get Holland and
you don't threaten Munich. I hope that's fair.
Any word from Italy? My inbox is overflowing with press from everyone but
Raine. A good sealion relies on a passive Italy. Offhand, I think a silent
Italian is good sign. What do you think?
Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Thu Sep 06 21:31:04 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
Please forgive my lateness is writing. Ordinarily, I would have written
every player immediately, but my workload has been pretty heavy lately. I
hope you understand.
My first thought is that the three central powers should stick together. As
Germany, I value a strong Austria just as I value a strong Italy. As long
as the three of us leave each other alone, we will each have the time to do
what we need to do.
I'm not sure what your opening strategy will be, but I wish you the best of
luck. Write when you have the chance.
- Steve
From - Thu Sep 06 21:31:05 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
[Have you considered an ET Alliance from Day 1? ;^}]
I don't see why not. The only drawback is that joint military action is
difficult, but I think we could certainly work to make things a lot clearer
diplomatically.
I'll give you a bit of a rundown of where I'm at, and then maybe you can
do the same. The West is still very much up in the air, but all the talk is
about my now infamous blunder of sending my opening message to Germany to
France instead. No real damage done, but my pride and my reputation have
both taken a hit because of it. Russia is friendly, and seems pretty set on
a southern opening (though that could be a smokescreen). No word on whether
Southern means pro or anti Turkey. Austria has been mostly quiet, but from
my other talks I think its just because he doesn't see much to gain from
talking to England at this point. Seems like a mistake to me. He has said
that hes a bit concerned about lack of communication from Italy, which isn't
all that surprising consider Italy's admission that English is not his first
language. To me that would seem to put you at a real disadvantage in a
press-heavy game like this. As for Italy himself, he says he likes to try
creative stuff like me. Whether that means Key Lepanto or attack France in
1901, I'm not sure. =)
Anyways, hope that gives you a bit more insight to the rest of the board,
and that we can continue to aid each other in seeing through the diplomatic
haze for many years to come.
Brent
From - Thu Sep 06 22:49:15 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
Well, I'm glad to hear that I haven't damaged our relationship with my
blunder. In the end, I think the thing that got hurt the most was my pride!
It seems that there has to be someway to turn it to our advantage though.
In responding to France about the message I told him that you probably
wouldn't be very happy with me. If he takes the bait, and we can convince
him that you really are mad enough to come after me, perhaps we can work
with that. One of the advantages of being Germany is that an anti-France
opening looks very similar to an anti-England opening. You're moving forces
West either way, and it only takes one quick turn to change directions.
Obviously this would take some role-playing by you to work, and we'd have to
come up with a basic plan in our heads of how the "attack" would go as well
as the stab. The biggest problem England has is getting a foothold, so I'd
love it if we could come up with a way for me to gain an early foothold in
France.
As far as goals go, my early goals for England involve getting control
over the Atlantic area to protect myself, either through conquest or
demilitarization, and also building up an avenue for future growth.
Attacking Germany makes it much harder to accomplish both of these goals, so
you can see where my bias lies. I'm also a big fan of tempo, so I'd like to
come up with a way to deal damage quickly. My strategy has always been to
lead from the front and use diplomacy to stop the grand alliance from
forming.
As for dealings with Russia, I think allowing him into Sweden with the
understanding that we will then DMZ Scandanavia from there is a great one.
2 against 1 enforcement is usually pretty effective, where each person knows
that if they stab the other two will both punish them. Shall we send some
sort of joint e-mail floating this idea? Then again, it may be good to wait
for a bit, France receiving my message means that he knows of the
possibility, and it might be good to have some plausible deniability.
Thanks for the info on the other players, that helps to put my
negotiations with them into prospective. Now I'm just waiting for the
gloves to come off, the introductions to end, and for the real proposals to
start floating around!
Brent
From - Thu Sep 06 22:49:16 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
Germany seems receptive to the idea of attacking you, though I suppose
he's at least as enthusiastic when discussing my demise with you. ;-)
If we did want to go for some sort of faux FG alliance transitioning to
EF, how would you want to work it? Germany would probably expect me to
open to the Channel, which is risky for you, but it also gives us
additional leverage against Bel. Then question is, what happens then?
Do I come to your rescue in Fall 1901, or wait til 1902? Do you have
any ideas for how things would progress? The "plan" with G would
probably be Sealion, if that helps you any.
Rod
From - Thu Sep 06 22:49:19 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Jafar,
> nothing yet from Italy.
I heard from him this afternoon. I'm surprised that he has not yet
contacted you. Perhaps he considers you a de-facto enemy ??
> Keith sent me a couple of short notes, (all that NoPress experience, I guess 8-)
I also took notice of both his experience and his conciseness. I
wouldn't think it the ideal style for playing Austria, but I suppose
he'll be a formidable opponent nonetheless.
> and Adam has been easily winning the "Press Volume" battle.
Brent has been the most prolific in the west (he sent me a huge opening
greeting, though I noticed complete paragraphs that were identical to
what he sent Germany ;-), with Adam a close second.
> I hear that Brent sent you a,
> "Hey, Germany, let's gang up on France!" letter. 8-) I hate when that
> happens! ;^)
Yes, it was rather amusing. I still haven't decided whether to punish
him or to accept his groveling. ;-)
BTW, Russia is opening Mos south - but I guess that's to be expected,
eh?
Rod
From - Thu Sep 06 22:49:21 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
> Message from France to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> > nothing yet from Italy.
>
> I heard from him this afternoon. I'm surprised that he has not yet
> contacted you. Perhaps he considers you a de-facto enemy ??
It might just be that I hadn't written him, yet, and he didn't have
a DMZ to arrange with me, so I wasn't 1st, or even 4th on his list.
> BTW, Russia is opening Mos south - but I guess that's to be expected,
It is if he's been watching 'titleist'. ;^}
Eric/GVJ.
From - Thu Sep 06 23:34:11 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. That's the best way I know to
build a partnership.
Please forgive this format, but it's the best way I know to proceed.
> The biggest problem England has is getting a foothold, so I'd
> love it if we could come up with a way for me to gain an early
> foothold in France.
Excellent idea. I would support you in any way that we both find plausible.
Belgium comes to mind, but that's entirely up to you. Any thoughts?
> As far as goals go, my early goals for England involve getting control
> over the Atlantic area to protect myself, either through conquest or
> demilitarization, and also building up an avenue for future growth
I would love to see you controlling the Atlantic, but we had better be sure
how we get from here to there. My moves this spring are pretty
straightforward (and I've pretty much told everyone what I'm doing):
mun - ruh
kie - den
ber - kie
Standard stuff really, but very flexible. If we decide to work together and
Russia does what he really ought to do (especially with a 1505 and 1490 to
his south!) I could switch my fleet order to Holland and support you into
Belgium. That would give you the build you need to take MAO, but it would
mean a risk in F01 so I'll let you make the call. Long term, though it
could really pay off. Convoy to Belgium and the Blitzkrieg is on.
Actually, I could do the same thing with my current orders. Duh. I'd just
have to trust Germany doesn't enter Burgundy. How's your relationship with
Rod? If you could put in a good word, I'd be immensely grateful.
The other way we could cooperate is in Scandanavia. My first thought there
is that one of us take Sweden in '02. Let's see how the first year plays
then make this happen. Sound good?
Please write when you can.
- Steve
P.S. One other option if you're really open for creative ideas is the
Western Opening. As England I played it once and got creamed, but as French
I was once on the receiving end and really wished I was somewhere else; I
got my butt kicked. Still hurts. :)
If you are interested, check out the Pouch Openings Library. It doesn't say
a lot, but we could fill in the details. You'll probably open Lon - Nth and
Eid - Nwg, but I thought I would float some other ideas.
No matter what we do in S'01, I'd like for us to work together in F'01. As
I said earlier, my first goal is resolving the triangle. A strong EG is a
beautiful thing to watch; almost as effective as an RT, just a bit more
subtle.
From - Thu Sep 06 23:34:23 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> I get the feeling the east will remain undecided for a little bit, but if a
> strong pair does come out quick, we had better be ready.
I think in a high-rated game, there's a tendency for everyone to be a
little extra paranoid about their "cut-throat" neighbors, so strong
alliances are hard to come by early in the game. However, playing
non-gunboat might mitigate that a bit. Regardless, any potential
indecision in the east is all the more incentive for us to take a little
risk, grab the bull by the horns, and make things happen. I'm all on
board for the Sealion, though I do need to review the literature some
more and look for potential pitfalls.
> > England is good only in Scandinavia, whereas FG can span
> > the entire board.
>
> There you go again. LOL. I knew you had a grand scheme. :-)
Sure, FG two-way! It might be a little far-fetched, but if we're to be
allied then I certainly can't admit to any solo aspirations, now can
I? ;-)
> Or, if it's Belgium you really want, just let me know. My first inclination
> is to consider it German territory, but under Sealion, it's strictly French.
Yes, the Sealion game plan is for me to take Eng and Bel in 1901.
Opening to Eng means that my fleet can't take a center in Iberia, so I
would need Bel as compensation in order to assure myself of two builds
(or one, if Italy misbehaves). Besides, you don't want to fall prey to
ELS with three builds in 1901, do you? :-)
> If we agree to Sealion, you can have Belgium as long as I get Holland and
> you don't threaten Munich. I hope that's fair.
Certainly. I consider Hol/Mun to be unequivocally German regardless.
> Any word from Italy? My inbox is overflowing with press from everyone but
> Raine. A good sealion relies on a passive Italy. Offhand, I think a silent
> Italian is good sign. What do you think?
I did receive one short message from him, but nothing substantial.
Naturally, I'll try to turn his attention toward the east.
Rod
From - Fri Sep 07 05:15:19 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
> Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> [Have you considered an ET Alliance from Day 1? ;^}]
> I don't see why not. The only drawback is that joint military action is
> difficult, but I think we could certainly work to make things a lot
clearer
> diplomatically.
If you ally with Italy to attack France, and with Germany to attack
Russia and France, and with me to attack Russia, it can work out
quite nicely. (I've already suggested EI vs. F to Italy.) Rod is the
strongest player in the West, and France is the strongest Power on
the board, so taking him out early would be a good idea for you.
> Austria has been mostly quiet, but from my other talks I think its
> just because he doesn't see much to gain from talking to England
> at this point. Seems like a mistake to me.
*nod* Keith plays mostly NoPress, and hasn't seemed to have
shifted back into partial-press mode, yet.
> As for Italy himself, he says he likes to try creative stuff like me.
> Whether that means Key Lepanto or attack France in 1901, I'm
> not sure. =)
Suggest the French Attack. 8-) I haven't heard from Italy, yet,
and only a "Hi, how are you?" letter from Germany, but I wrote to
them both this afternoon, so hopefully they will reply soon. Russia
and I have talked the most, but no alliance decisions have been made,
yet. France and I have talked more about local issues, and Dip in
general, rather than 'gutsy'.
Eric the Turk.
From - Fri Sep 07 16:51:20 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
I accept your apologize :-) But I am the one who really should
apologize. I have tons of work at the moment. I have been quiet to
everyone :-( So please forgive me my behaviour. I will talk to you more
often from now on.
> Please forgive my lateness is writing. Ordinarily, I would have written
> every player immediately, but my workload has been pretty heavy lately. I
> hope you understand.
I do. I have a similar situation here. Can you get into a net at
weekends? Or do you prefer to spend your weekend free from dipping?
> My first thought is that the three central powers should stick together. As
> Germany, I value a strong Austria just as I value a strong Italy. As long
> as the three of us leave each other alone, we will each have the time to do
> what we need to do.
I agree. Have you spoken to Austria about this? What did he say?
Could you clarify this English broadcast where he spoke about sending
stuff to wrong person? Do you think it was meant to be that way?
Let's talk about GI alliance in general no need to think about gutsy, yet.
------------
-Could you give me your opinion about GI?
-There might be a need for 3rd parner, right? Who and why?
-What are the unwanted alliances between opponents?
-What should Italy do at the beginning?
-What should Germany do at the beginning?
If you want to you can also tell me your opinion about how accomplish GI
in gutsy. Especially I would like to hear your vision of Sweden. That is
important place at the early days.
Has there already been talk about western triple? :-)
Yours,
Raine
From - Fri Sep 07 16:51:23 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
[We have something in common. I like to try something different also.]
Well, I have an opportunity that might interest you then. EIT, a 3-way
alliance of an almost unheard of nature in the opening. It was proposed
initially by Turkey, in response to my statement about creative openings (I
sent that to everyone). While it does seem a bit strange, I can see quite a
few benefits:
1. A quick take down of France, you and I can combine quickly to eliminate
France, who is usually one of the toughest to take down. I think I could
get Germany to be an unwitting partner in this as well, of course we'd have
to make sure we got most of the centers.
2. Keep Russia and Turkey from allying. This is always a top goal for
Italians, and the idea would be that Turkey and I combine to take out Russia
early on.
3. A Turkey focused on land. Obviously one of the stipulations would be
that Turkey would have to build almost exclusively armies, since his targets
would be Russia with my help and Austria with yours.
4. A strong diplomatic situation. Since nobody would really expect an
alliance of this nature going on in the early game, there should always be
one of us who can get information from "the other side" that can then be
used towards the greater good of the alliance.
Obviously there are a few disadvantages. You and I would be splitting in
two directions. You allow Turkey to grow, which is often dangerous for
Italy. We don't know where Germany would fit into things. But all in all,
I think its an interesting plan with a lot of merits. It lets us all make
relatively aggressive openings knowing that we've got friends waiting to
help us. If it sounds interesting to you, we should probably try a
three-way press to talk about the goals and ground rules. If it sounds too
dangerous, thats fine, I'll look for somehting else. Let me know what you
think.
Brent
From - Fri Sep 07 16:51:25 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
Yes, Belgium is what I had in mind too. I'd love to get an army there
that could then help make the push into France. To that end, Stephen Agar's
article "Prising the French Snail out of his Shell" on the Pouch presents a
fairly elegant way of doing it, provided that I can keep France out of the
Channel. I do think it better for the fleet to go to Denmark rather than
Holland. Once its in Holland its kind of stuck and doesn't do you much
good, where in Denmark it can still provide some utility in the Scandanavian
area.
The Western opening is interesting, though it would seem to me that rather
than move to Clyde that Edi should go to Nwg and then to NAO, making the NAO
move more of a surprise. It also provides a backup if the move to the
Channel fails, still allowing me to pick up a center if I need to. In fact
that sounds pretty reasonable, LON - ENG, Lvp - Wal, Edi - Nwg. Not a
definite yet, but certainly a high possibility.
As for my relationship with Rod, its still a bit strained after the
misguided e-mail. I'm not sure what I could say to keep him from moving to
Burgundy, but probably his fear of me will go a long ways towards
accomplishing that, as he doesn't want to attack you if he knows I'm coming
after him. My real goal right now is to keep him from opening to the
Channel, which may be easier said then done.
Brent
From - Fri Sep 07 16:51:28 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Ah yes, the dreaded Sealion. It was that very attack that kept me running
in circles in teachme, never eliminated but never able to get a strong
footing. The problem with that as the fake attack is that it is so quick,
and has very prescribed moves for the French. If you vary from them in any
way, Germany will know something is up. And if you don't vary from them,
I'm going to be in no position to help out in a German attack.
What we need is something that allows you to be positioning armies towards
Belgium (in a German friendly way) with a future convoy to England. You get
into the Channel, but more like in 1902 rather than 1901, to give us more
time to setup and string Germany along. Then, when it comes time for you to
convoy on to the English isle, you instead make a full force push into
Germany with my support. We're both in stronger positions at this point,
and better able to make the stab count.
This also provides me with a bit more security, since the "Sealion"
approach would leave me totally at your mercy to switch sides appropriately.
The Sealion generally favors France the most, and it wouldn't be too
difficult to decide that it provides more benefit than going for the stab of
Germany.
Do you think that you could arrange such a plan with Germany? It might be
difficult if you've already been talking Sealion, but you can always use the
excuse that you think I'm going to move to the Channel so the Sealion won't
work. Let me know if this plan sounds possible to you, if not we'll have to
go back to the drawing board.
Brent
From - Fri Sep 07 16:51:29 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
I am under pressure. Not 'cause of gutsy, yet. I just have hard times to
find time to diplome.
> > I hope we can all have a pleasent fight.
>
> (That's "pleasant". (Requested English help.))
:-) Thanks. Others did not react to that. I really appreciate if you can
continue correcting my language.
> *chuckle* I had a friend in college whom I played role-playing games
> with, and she had a fighter named, Paavo Nurmi, The Flying Finn. (He
> was always swinging into battle on a rope like Errol Flynn, in some
> 1930's Swashbuckler movie. 8-)
Did you know that Flying Finn is also used when people talk about finnish
rallye drivers from 60's? Timo Mäkinen etc.
> Obligatory Dip Reference: An IT alliance is unusual, but it can work if
> I build Armies and you build Fleets, and agree to DMZ Ion. (An early
> attack by Italy on France with English (and some perhaps some German)
> help has the advantage of getting you into the Atlantic before the West
> resolves.)
Ok, I guess we have to talk about diplomacy also ;-) TI is indeed an
unusual alliance. But it is against the rules to have automatic enemies,
isn't it :-) In principle are you willing to build only armies to make it
possible to have TI alliance? I would be very interested in trying to
figure out how to make TI alliance. At least others would't guess TI
easily. I can immediately say that I am not keen to DMZ Ion before I see
some commitment from you. I am sure that you understand this.
Would you _really_ like to try something as weird as TI? At 1st it sounds
odd but after 2nd thought it is always nice to try something different.
You should get to Black Sea in S1901M 'cause later it would be much harder
when Russia would realize your desire to get there. Especially remembering
that you should only have one fleet.
Good luck in 'titleist'. Could you handle it fast so that you can
concentrate 100% on gutsy :-)
Raine
From - Fri Sep 07 16:51:33 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
Germany and I did specifically discuss Sealion, so that makes things
difficult. Unfortunately, I'm really busy today, so I don't have time
to think over all our options and properly discuss our plans. I will
get back to you over the weekend. I'm certain we'll find a solution.
Rod
From - Fri Sep 07 16:51:39 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Eric,
> Meaningless notes from E & G, a discussion about our living
> 20 miles apart with France, nothing from Italy, and a request to
> open Ank-Bla from Austria.
Keith seems to be a fan of bounces in general I guess,
he wants to bounce with me in Gal and since he's suggested
I move to Bla as well I guess he wants us to bounce there
too. I wonder if he's asked France and England to bounce
in Eng too.
> There are basically three options. Bounce,
> or Sev-Arm, Ank-Bla, Smy-Ank followed by Bla S Ank-Arm with you
> disbanding the Fleet and building in the north,
Sounds like quite a commitment from your units, tying
up Ank and Smy on the far east border for a whole year.
> or RF Sev-Bla, then RF Bla-Con, then RF Con-Aeg to help me
> push toward the Atlantic.
I have heard rumours of such a move but never seen it
in practice. It would be very trusting of you to let
me get away with such a thing and very tempting to
accidentally screw the move out of Con up. In fact,
Italy could bounce the thing as it tried to get out
if things went horribly wrong. I guess F smy could
support it though.
> The problem with the bounce is that it leaves
> your Fleet there waiting to stab me someday, and slows my
> progress westward.
Presumably, if the fleet takes Rum in the fall, it would
be possible to dislodge and disband the fleet at the point
when we swapped Rumania into Turkish hands.
> The problem with RF Sev-Bla-Con is
> convincing you to move out of Con, once you're there. ;^}
It would be very tempting to just stay, or to talk the
Italian into bouncing me back in so I can stay and
not even have the blame.
> At this level most everyone would recognize Sev-Arm as
> the "Slingshot Juggernaut", and react to the Juggernaut, but
> it still might be the way to go, depending on what I/A seem
> to be planning.
I suspect you're right that everyone would know after the
spring moves what we were planning and I'm sure none of them
would like it. Do we have any idea what Austria and Italy
are planning? They've both been quite quiet which could either
mean they're not talking much or they're plotting together.
Austria and Italy plotting together wouldn't be good news
for Turkey, and longer term for Russia either. My money is
on them just not sending a great deal of press to anyone
though. As I said, Kieth wants to bounce in Gal and I
think I'll probably go along with that but I don't think
it tells us a lot. Someone warned me that Keith has moved
to Gal as Austria quite a lot in his game history so I've
become slightly paranoid that he'd take Gal if I didn't
bounce him anyway.
We have plenty of time to change our minds if more information
comes in, but at the moment I think I favour bouncing in Bla
as well.
Adam.......
From - Fri Sep 07 16:51:41 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
It's it annoying when you get more press from England and
France on the other side of the board than you can coax
from Austria and Turkey who are much closer.
> In this case, I'm inclined to believe it was unintentional.
That's what England says to me as well.
> Regardless, I think it's wise to not let it affect my planning
> too much - except that I might be slightly more paranoid than
> usual. :-)
It would probably make me start offering all kinds of
things to Germany to convince him that England isn't his
ideal friend at all.
> Of course, I can't expect you to expend resources in the north if
> things look tricky in the south. You'd have to have a solid alliance
> with A or T to open Mos-StP, but there's no way to really know who's
> with whom before the first moves.
I don't think it's going to be possible to trust either of them
enough in the spring at least. A F StP(nc) build in the 1901 Adjustments
isn't completely out of the question though.
Adam.........
From - Fri Sep 07 16:51:44 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Good to get your letter. I imagine the press will really fly in this game,
> but it is good to hear from you nonetheless. I really like your broadcasts
> so far, too; keep at it.
I'm always glad to hear from anybody, but I'm slightly
frustrated that the Western Triangle (EGF) seem more
interested in writing to me than the Eastern powers
are.
> If you agree to keep out of Silesia and Prussia, I think we have a deal.
I do indeed agree, and I'll tell my troops to party with
yours on the border of Den/Swe this winter.
> And, you are quite right about the sharks to the south. Everyone on this
> board is quite good, but Keith and Eric are the tops. I'm glad I'm sitting
> safely tucked away over here in Germany.
I have a horrible feeling that they're getting together with
each other more than they are with me. I think I've agreed
to bounce with each of them which doesn't leave much room
for a sucker punch at least. All I can do is keep talking
and hoping I'm being friendly rather than annoying them
into ganging up on me!
> If you need anything beyond the Swedish build, please let me know. I
> probably won't be asking for any St Pete fleets any time soon, but it's good
> to know they're available if needed.
Information is what I feel I'm lacking most of right
now. It's possible that Keith and Eric aren't writing
much to anyone at all but it seems odd since they're
the higest ranked on the map.
> Also, leaving Scandanavia open in a couple of years is totally naive and
> unworkable (I'm surprised Brent would even suggest that).
It was my idea actually I think, but I agree it's utterly
unworkable. I was just looking for some way to do something
similar to the way I DMZed the whole of Russia as England in
'Crispbills'. I don't think that would even be possible in
a standard game, I think Payola is what made it doable.
Still, it's a nice dream.
> If anything, I'd like to see your fleet in Norway or the Skag (or
> even the North Sea for that matter). Let's keep talking.
France seems to want to see my fleet in Norway as well. I
certainly aren't in a position to commit to that kind of
thing at the moment but if I feel safe enough in the south
come the winter I may build F StP(nc) and try for Nwy.
With your help it would be possible.
> The only piece of advice I can give is watch Galicia. Keith
> loves playing Austria (and he's damn good at it); I have
> personally witnessed him issue Vie - Gal in 4(!) games I
> have either played in or mastered. Eric's good too, but
> I've never seen him play Turkey...so I'm not much help there.
He claims to have chosen Turkey because of it's novelty,
he hasn't played it much. I think you'll probably see Keith
head into Gal again this spring since he's asked if I would
like to bounce there with him and now I'm good and paranoid
so I almost certainly will. Thanks.
Adam........
From - Fri Sep 07 16:51:46 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
Brent,
> Yes indeed, not even 24 hours in and I'm already acting the total
> newbie. I can't believe that I would make a mistake like that in the
> worst possible situation. There wasn't anything in there I absolutely
> needed to keep from France, but it still makes me look bad. Oh well, I
> resent the message to Germany, who by now as assuredly heard of my
> mistake and is going to be none too happy with me. I'll let you know
> when I hear back from him.
Well, it might be worth trying to build some Bridges with
France anyway. Germany claims to have still not made up
his mind but he's mentioning quite a few of the same
ideas that France is mentioning in press, so I guess
they're talking quite a bit to each other. It's always
almost impossible to tell what's going on before the S1901
moves at least but I must recomend caution.
Adam.......
From - Fri Sep 07 16:51:47 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Got your letter. Thanks for the info.
> I'm always glad to hear from anybody, but I'm slightly
> frustrated that the Western Triangle (EGF) seem more
> interested in writing to me than the Eastern powers are.
It appears that way to me, too. Austria and Turkey haven't written much to
anyone I think whereas England, France, and I are writing like crazy. It's
getting a little confusing over here. One thing about Keith I've noticed is
that he doesn't write a ton of press. His stuff is usually short and to the
point, and he *never* gives anything away unsolicited. That's the exact
opposite style of a lot of other players, Brent in particular. Now that man
can write. :)
The only other information I have is that I think Italy thinks he is in the
same position as you. If AT do gang up, you probably want Italy on your
side and not tickling France. I probably shouldn't be saying that because
it's quite possible I *would* want Italy pestering France. Oh well, do what
you need to do.
The other reason I'm writing is the I will be out of town for the weekend.
So, I probably won't write until Sunday night some time. Talk to you then
and I hope you have a good weekend.
- Steve
P.S. Oh yeah, the other thing that intrigues me is France asking for your
fleet to get into Norway. That's exactly the type of tidbit I find useful.
Thanks for passing it on. If I hear anything similar, I'll let you know.
From - Fri Sep 07 16:51:49 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> P.S. Oh yeah, the other thing that intrigues me is France asking for your
> fleet to get into Norway. That's exactly the type of tidbit I find useful.
> Thanks for passing it on. If I hear anything similar, I'll let you know.
Well, I imagine that you know France recieved a note from
England which was addressed to you. I don't know the exact
contents of that press but it seems it implied that you and
England were planning to gang up on France. If you were in
that position wouldn't you also be hoping someobody else
would jump into the battle from the rear?
Adam........
From - Fri Sep 07 16:52:05 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Thanks for the letter. Let's see...a couple of things.
First, I want you to know that I'm not trying to sucker you with talk of the
Western Opening. It is truly a risky endeavor and more of an entertaining
possibility than a reliable strategy. But, it can and has worked. I like
your modification. As England, I almost always open Edi - Nwg anyhow no
matter who my target is.
Second, and this is way out there, but I suspect we could see Mos - StP this
spring. Knowing Keith and Eric pretty well, I have to believe they'll open
Vie - Gal and Ank - Bla respectively. I've talked to Adam about this
likelihood and that's what he expects, too. That means two Russian bounces,
but they'll probably let him into Rumania in the fall (balance of power kind
of thing). If Adam expects the bounces, Moscow really only has two viable
orders. If Moscow goes to the Ukraine, you *know* Keith and Eric will gang
up on him in Rumania in the fall. I asked Keith about this issue and he
changed the subject (no surprised there). Eric hasn't gotten back to me.
Number three of my points to make in this letter is your relationship with
Rod. I really don't think he was offended in any way by your misdirected
press, but he has asked Russia to get his fleet into Norway as soon as
possible (part of why I suspect Mos - StP). You're right, though, the
channel is the key. If you do get in or if you decide to play it safe with
Lon - Nth, I'll support a convoy to Belgium. If France gets in the channel
instead, I'll support a naval assault. Either way is fine with me. In
fact, there's no need for you to let me know which move you decide on. I'll
be in Ruh, Kie, and Den after S01, ready to help wherever you need me.
That said, I do believe in resolving the triangle quickly. It's a tricky
choice: a sure fleet in Nth or a possible fleet in the channel. Ideally, I
want you in the channel, but I would understand if you opened with the old
standby: lon - nth, edi - nwg, lvp - yor. I would not consider such an
apparent pro-French opening a block to EG cooperation. Thought you should
know.
Lastly, I'll be out of town until Sunday so don't be offended if you don't
hear from me for a couple of days. Thanks again. Have a good weekend.
I'll write when I return.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 07 16:52:08 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Okay, I think we're settling down on a plan here. The big pitfall, at least
right off is the channel. If you don't get in, you pretty much have to
order bre - mao in the fall and build a fleet. I think Italy will behave,
but I'm not so sure about England. In any case, we're still well positioned
for '02.
Any news about Austria and Turkey? The first couple of moves in the east
will be very interesting. No matter what happens, I agree that we should
strike as quickly as we can. Like you, I'm not a carebear, but I do see the
value in a long-term alliance.
Also, I'll be out of town this weekend so you might not hear from me until
Sunday night. I hope that's okay with you.
Talk to you later and have a good weekend.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 07 16:52:20 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
I'm rather busy today, so I'll write a proper response to your message
sometime over the weekend, and we can wrap up any remaining details on
Monday.
Have a good weekend!
Rod
From - Sat Sep 08 11:05:22 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
I think the idea of an alliance with Italy is a great one. I proposed it
to him the other day, but so far with no response. He unfortunately seems
to be the least talkative of all othe players, which I guess is
understandable if English is not his first language.
Since you've been talking with Russia a lot, I wanted to ask you about a
rumor I've been hearing. Has Russia been considering moving Mos-StP this
Spring? He wrote me kind of a strange letter saying that someone suggested
it, and that he'd never thought of it before. Something about the way he
said it left me a bit uneasy, and I've since heard some similar things from
other countries. I'm going to send a message to him about it too, but I
just wondered if you had any insight.
The other rumor that seems to be going around is the possibility of a
Sealion opening with France and Germany. Obviously this one concerns me
even more than the first, so I'm doing everything I can to prevent it from
coming true. If you hear anything along those lines though, let me know.
Thanks, and I'll get in touch with you once I hear back from Italy.
Brent
From - Sat Sep 08 11:05:24 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
Don't worry, I'm definitely trying to build a relationship with France as
well. It never hurts to have too many allies!
[France suggested to me that I move Mos up to StP this spring and possibly
deny you Nwy in the fall with it.]
Yikes, thats pretty unfriendly of him. Norway is my one and only build I
can count on, so denying me that would be like an all out declaration of
war. Of course, that probably suits France just fine, which is why he
suggested it. And don't let him get away with using that mis-sent press as
an excuse for validating anti-English moves, the fact is there wasn't
anything inherently anti-French in it, and he knows it was only an opening
letter. If he's turning against me its because of his own reasons, not
because of the mistake I made.
With this "suggestion" in mind, I am even more in favor of the
demilitarized Scandanavia. We each take our one center and then move away,
you to BAL, Germany to Kiel or something, and me back to North or Norwegian.
As long as you don't build in StP, everyone stays safe and concentrate the
rest of their units elsewhere. And if anyone does break the agreement, they
know they will be facing the wrath of both the other countries. Have you
reached a point where you fell safe making this agreement (pending German
approval as well)?
Brent
From - Sat Sep 08 11:05:25 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
While your earlier discussions make it a bit harder to change course, I
definitely think its still possible to do it believably, and that the
benefits of doing so are worth it. I can float rumors to anyone that I plan
on moving to the Channel, which will of course get back to you, and then
force you to "reconsider" your Sealion opening. Unless of course you've
come up with another solution, in which case I'm definitely willing to
listen. Germany has made it pretty clear to me that he is going with the
standard Blitzkrieg opening with Kie - Den. This leaves him in a position
to pick up 3 centers should he choose to do so, and also gives him the
advantage of not having to decide his target yet. Probably a good choice
for him, but I think it really leaves us at a disadvantage to him unless we
have a solid plan worked out for ourselves.
Brent
From - Sat Sep 08 11:05:26 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
Just a quick addendum to my earlier note, rumor has it that France is
considering Sealion. Since this requires that he concentrate most of his
forces to the North, I think it would provide a wonderful opportunity for an
Italian-English attack. With your help, we can keep him from getting
control of the Atlantic and then looking for more room to expand.
Brent
From - Sat Sep 08 11:05:33 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
> Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> I think the idea of an alliance with Italy is a great one. I proposed
it
> to him the other day, but so far with no response. He unfortunately
> seems to be the least talkative of all othe players, which I guess is
> understandable if English is not his first language.
Keep in mind he's in Finland, and therefore 7 or 8 hours ahead of U.S.
Eastern time. I'm not sure whether he has an internet connection at home,
or not, but the time difference is a challenge in and of itself.
> Since you've been talking with Russia a lot, I wanted to ask you about a
> rumor I've been hearing. Has Russia been considering moving Mos-StP this
> Spring? He wrote me kind of a strange letter saying that someone
suggested
> it, and that he'd never thought of it before. Something about the way he
> said it left me a bit uneasy, and I've since heard some similar things
from
> other countries. I'm going to send a message to him about it too, but I
> just wondered if you had any insight.
France> BTW, Russia is opening Mos south - but I guess that's to be
expected,
Me> It is if he's been watching 'titleist'. ;^}
Adam and I have been discussing Bla and Fleet maneuvers almost exclusively,
though he has said Keith wants to bounce in Gal. Mos-StP is something that
Germany or France would suggest to Russia if they were planning a Sealion,
though. I, however, have heard no rumors about that. Of course, I've
gotten
nothing from Germany but a, "Hi, we're on opposite sides of the board, talk
to you later.", letter. I'll check with Adam, and get back to you.
Eric the Turk.
From - Sat Sep 08 11:58:50 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
I wonder if you can read e-mail at weekends? If you can it helps a lot
'cause I have more time at weekends to diplome.
> I figure it will be Turkey. Russia seems interested in the idea, but of
> course he will probably agree to anything.
Turkey is also my 1st pick. What do you mean that Russia will brobably
agree anything? Do you think it is possible for us to prevent RT? So far
Russia has spoken nice words to me (of course). He gives me the impression
that there ain't RT. It is difficult for me to judge if he is honest.
> Well it is true. I won't defend against you initially unless I have some
> reason to believe you would abandon your fear of Turkey. If I defend
> against you right away, I will be eaten alive by Russia and/or Turkey.
There is no need for you do anything else that head for 2 builds in 1901.
I won't even think about slowing you down. Quite the opposite.
> This sounds good. A strong German is good for Austria and Italy, since he
> boarders our neighbors. I understand your concern about your fifth
> center. This will depend on RUssia's reaction. If he moves against
> Turkey, then it should be relatively easy for you to get a Turkish center
> (Con or Smy). If not, then you would get Bul, or we could trade you
> Greece if I am able to get Bul. I'm flexible. What do you think your
> fifth center will be?
5th center: it depends a lot of the situation but Bul,Con,Gre,Mar,Smy (in
alphabetical order) everything goes. I see that strong AI alliance is good
for both of us. Italy seems to be the little brother in AI. Could we find
a solution to equal that. Maybe like you say that if you get Bul I'll get
Gre.
Germany has been quiet but send a note that he would be interested in
central power alliance. Have you talked about this with him?
Black Sea is interesting to both of us. It will give us clues about RT
relations. Would you mind to guess what is going to happen there?
Galicia is another important place. Do you want to tell me about it? I
fully understand if you don't want to tell me about it. I just like the
way one can make strong commitment to ally by telling in advance what he
is going to do (and of course if it really happens then it should be
easier to make that alliance work). Still I want to say that I won't feel
bad if you decide to keep it a secred.
Italy
PS. I want to be honest with you. You can check out 'clnfite2'. I played
the Turk. We had a brilliant AT alliance for a very long time. There was a
very weak Italy at the beginnig that is why I don't want to take much
glory from the result (2WD with E). Why I tell you this is that I am going
to watch carefully AT relations :-) I am sure you and Eric do not rule
_any_ alliance out just 'cause they are unusual.
From - Sat Sep 08 11:58:53 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Yes, I read e-mail over the weekends. I have to go to a picnic now, but
I'll write you back later today.
Austria
From - Sat Sep 08 11:58:54 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Do you have a net connection at weekends? It gives us a possibility to
change notes more often if you do. We have the disadvantage of timezones
:-( compared to American players.
> Sure. It would be good to know what Eric and Keith in particular
> are saying to you. The Austrian asked me about going after Turkey
> but the Turk has been strangely quiet and non-commital, we haven't
> even talked about the Black Sea yet, which is something I must
> fix soon.
Keith and Eric are giving me the impression that there might be a AT
alliance! Obviously they do not say it but between the lines... Eric has
been very silent. That is not a proof to AT especially if he is in
'titleist' but certainly I'll watch closely AT.
> Well, obviously I've already mentioned that Austria would
> be just dandy as a tempory help taking own Turkey. In fact
> I'm not convinced RI would work at all without either
> Austria or Turkey falling into their trap. I just have a
> preference for Austria.
I agree. I would never prefer Turkey to be 3rd partner as Italy.
> The general setup seems quite favorable to me. France has
> apparently recieved a message from England which was supposed
> to be addressed to the German. This detailed the E/G plan to
> go after France. That's just perfect in the West since it
> keeps France from hassling you in the Med and it's easy
> enough to distract England and Germany over Scandanavia
> if they start to look like they're doing too well.
May I ask where did you find out this info? I mean, you knew this
before England broadcast it.
> Meanwhile, Austria has already approached me saying he'd
> be happy to go after Turkey a little (I'm assuming he said
> the same to you since he hinted at trying to get you involved)
Have you talked about Galicia already? If you think you trust me then you
might want to build trust between us by telling your plans there. I won't
be offended if you decide to keep it a secred.
What is the possibility of AT? Do you think it is just my imagination?
> Turkey hasn't said a lot of any substance, as I've mentioned,
> but we did breifly talk about trying to do a Juggernaught
> and his demands that I concentrate almost all my power in StP
> were way too high, even if that were my prefered option which
> it isn't.
How are you going to handle Black Sea? I would love to see your fleet in
there. Bounce would be nice and if you get there even better.
> What do you say? What have Keith and Eric been saying to you?
> Does my discription of the Western Triangle ring true with
> whatever you've heard?
Like I said I am a bit worried about AT. I might be wrong about it we'd
better keep our eyes open. About west: I feel like idiot. I have nothing
to say. They haven't been talking much about real plans. BTW when we are
talking about western triangle, I agree with you that we do not what it to
resolve quickly. That is why we need to prevent the fastest 2 on 1 and
that is Sealion. I have no idea if there is one but you can keep your eyes
open up there.
> We don't really NEED France, but it would be good to
> prop him up for a while if he starts to fall and it
> would be good if he doesn't turn eastwards and start
> giving you jip in the Med so agreeing to his RIF
> aliance is quite a good excuse for all the things we
> would have probably done anyway.
France is not needed. That is true. Maybe we just try to work hard to keep
western triange unsolved as long as possible.
Raine
PS. How about Sweden? Do you think you'll get it? You must have been
talking about it with Germany.
From - Sat Sep 08 13:37:40 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
What is the E talking about sending messages to wrong persons? Did you
receive one that was not supposed to be sent to you?
FIR:
---
Well we can forget Russia in the beginning. At least it is not needed to
discuss via press to FR, yet. I would like to start with FI relationship.
I am willing to be out of your way and I hope you are willing to keep your
promise to DMZ Med and to not build fleets to Mar.
Would you be interested in a theatre act? We could fool the others by
moving both to Pie. I haven't ordered there but I want to know how you
feel about it. We could both use that bounce as a diplomatic weapon while
we are talking with our neighbours you in west and I in the east.
If I were a gambler I would bet my money on someone moving to ECh. Can you
confirm :-) And would you be willing to show your goodwill and to show
that you are serious with FI by telling me your prediction about who is
going to get Bel?
Raine
From - Sat Sep 08 13:37:41 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
You talked about Sealion. Where did you got this rumour? I am interested
to see if it is true or not. I would like to know who is the one who
sends that kind of stuff. I have heard absolutely nothing about Sealion.
You can easily move to ECh to make it harder for FG. Have thought about
that?
> 2. Keep Russia and Turkey from allying. This is always a top goal for
> Italians, and the idea would be that Turkey and I combine to take out Russia
> early on.
This is obviously my main concern. RT is not what I am looking for. Do you
have detailed plans how you are going after Russia?
> 3. A Turkey focused on land. Obviously one of the stipulations would be
> that Turkey would have to build almost exclusively armies, since his targets
> would be Russia with my help and Austria with yours.
I like this part of the plan. This is the only way IT can be together.
> Obviously there are a few disadvantages. You and I would be splitting in
> two directions. You allow Turkey to grow, which is often dangerous for
> Italy. We don't know where Germany would fit into things. But all in all,
> I think its an interesting plan with a lot of merits. It lets us all make
> relatively aggressive openings knowing that we've got friends waiting to
> help us. If it sounds interesting to you, we should probably try a
> three-way press to talk about the goals and ground rules. If it sounds too
> dangerous, thats fine, I'll look for somehting else. Let me know what you
> think.
In principle I like the idea. Turkey should show some more commitment to
this. So far he is not too anxious about it. If Turkey is serious about
EIT the I am ready to move against France.
Raine
From - Sat Sep 08 13:37:44 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
> Do you have a net connection at weekends? It gives us a possibility to
> change notes more often if you do. We have the disadvantage of timezones
> :-( compared to American players.
I do indeed, though I quite often go away at weekends and
the ones where I stay at home tend to see me lie in bed
until gone noon and then go out to parties and whatnot
fairly early in the evening.
> Keith and Eric are giving me the impression that there might be a AT
> alliance! Obviously they do not say it but between the lines... Eric has
> been very silent. That is not a proof to AT especially if he is in
> 'titleist' but certainly I'll watch closely AT.
Quietness is usually just a sign that the player is
busy in real life, or just not a very prolific writer.
Normally I'd take a quiet A/T to simply mean they're
not very experienced players and aren't talking at all.
It's just that this seems less likely when we're talking
about the two most highly rated players in a high rating
game.
[About the press from E to G that went to F]
> May I ask where did you find out this info? I mean, you knew this
> before England broadcast it.
Sure, France told me and it seemed genuine since it
mentioned some things I'd been talking with England about.
The western powers all seem to reply to press pretty quickly,
I think they're yapping away like gossips at a party over
there, it's just the east seems unusually quiet.
> Have you talked about Galicia already? If you think you trust me then you
> might want to build trust between us by telling your plans there. I won't
> be offended if you decide to keep it a secred.
We have, though it's been difficult to get anything out of
Keith that's more than a line or two with very little content.
He asked for the bounce there, and I said I'd agree to that
unless something else came up. It doesn't look like anything
else will come up, though Germany said that he's seen
Keith, as Austria, move to Gal in S1901 quite often so
I'm even more inclined to just bounce him there for now.
> What is the possibility of AT? Do you think it is just my imagination?
Well, it's definately not just your imagination since it's
also my imagination but I think it may be just that. My guess
is they've agreed on a division of the Balkans (have they
talked about Gre with you?) but not much beyond that. I
suspect they're both busy or something, an hence not
much press from them to anyone, including each other.
It seems that most of Keith's game have been nopress too,
which could indicate that Diplomacy isn't really his skill,
just the Tactics.
> How are you going to handle Black Sea? I would love to see your fleet in
> there. Bounce would be nice and if you get there even better.
We've talked about that a little more now and I'm pretty sure
we'll bounce there. He suggested either disbanding the fleet
in arm in F1901 or else letting it pass through Con but he's
just writing too little press for me to trust him with either
of those options anyway so, bounce it'll have to be.
> Like I said I am a bit worried about AT. I might be wrong about it we'd
> better keep our eyes open.
I've decided to open fairly safely with bounces in Gal and Bla
for now. I'm not terribly impressed with this option but I've
just had too little press from A or T to get a feel for what
they might do at all. You're right that we should be cautious.
> About west: I feel like idiot. I have nothing
> to say. They haven't been talking much about real plans.
Really? That's strange, as I said all three of them have
replied to my press and answered all my questions pretty
quickly.
> BTW when we are talking about western triangle, I agree
> with you that we do not what it to resolve quickly.
> That is why we need to prevent the fastest 2 on 1 and
> that is Sealion. I have no idea if there is one but you can keep your eyes
> open up there.
I honestly don't think any of them have really decided just
yet. EF vs G looks pretty unlikely, I think it will
effectively be up to Germany as to which side he eventually
piles down on. We may not have to do much other than
just write press to effect the balance in that corner
though, their relationships already feel pretty fluid
and easily changed.
> France is not needed. That is true. Maybe we just try
> to work hard to keep western triange unsolved as long
> as possible.
I'm looking forward to seeing the fall moves in
general since I think, at least in the east here,
the spring moves will be fairly noncommital. I hope
that I have enough manuvering room to use a unit or
two in the north to keep EGF at each others throats
though.
> PS. How about Sweden? Do you think you'll get it? You must have been
> talking about it with Germany.
Probably, he said it's mine so long as I stay out if
Pru and Sil and I belive him, so much so that I
might even move StP->Fin instead of GOB but certanly
don't tell him I'm thinking of that, don't want to
raise his expectations if I decide it's too risky.
I think I'm as satisfied as I'm likely to get
that the safe options are my best bet for this
spring at least. Bounce in Gal and Bla, StP head
out toward Swe and Mos move into Ukr to help get
Rum in the fall. While I'm satisfied these are
the right moves for me, I'm not terribly happy
about it. I'd have liked Austria to spend more
time writing press and for you and he to have
already agreed to move on Turkey ASAP, probably
with a Lepanto. I'd hoped I could make my decisions
based on something other than press volume in
a high rated game like this but I guess that's
out of the question for now at least. We'll see
if the two of them pick up a little next week
once the deadline is in sight.
Adam.............
From - Sat Sep 08 13:37:48 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Thanks for the prompt reply.
> is they've agreed on a division of the Balkans (have they
> talked about Gre with you?) but not much beyond that. I
None of them is offering Greece to me :-(
> It seems that most of Keith's game have been nopress too,
> which could indicate that Diplomacy isn't really his skill,
> just the Tactics.
You have probably checked my stats also. Not too many games with partial
press. I never play more than on partial press game at the time. I don't
know if Keith has the same principles. I wouldn't underestimate Keith.
> We've talked about that a little more now and I'm pretty sure
> we'll bounce there. He suggested either disbanding the fleet
> in arm in F1901 or else letting it pass through Con but he's
> just writing too little press for me to trust him with either
> of those options anyway so, bounce it'll have to be.
Remember that there is also a chance to Ank-Con,Con-Bul and Smy-Arm. That
is a pain to Russia. Even that you would end up in Black Sea. I have tried
that one as Turk and it worked very well.
> Really? That's strange, as I said all three of them have
> replied to my press and answered all my questions pretty
> quickly.
You are right they do reply and talk but nothing serious. I haven't been
able to get the picture what they are going to do.
> might even move StP->Fin instead of GOB but certanly
> don't tell him I'm thinking of that, don't want to
Well my advise is that do not move to Finland. Finland has bad memories
of Russian troops :-) Seriously, I think it is a bad idea to move
there. You gain nothing. I won't tell Germany a word about this 'cause my
opinion is that you should head to Gol.
> Adam.............
Why the dots?
Raine
From - Sat Sep 08 15:55:11 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Thanks for the prompt reply.
Not much better to do on a slow Saturday afternoon.
I'm off down the pub in half an hour though so this'll
definately be me last press today.
> None of them is offering Greece to me :-(
Akward. Have you brought up the issue with them? When I
play Italy I'm usually anxious to chat to Austria as
much as possible. If I and A don't talk a lot there's
usuaully a lot of pressure to fight which tends to be
bad for both countries.
> You have probably checked my stats also.
Oh, sorry, I may have accidentally mislead you there, I haven't
checked out anything beyond the JPDR figures, I was passing on
something somone said to me. Germany I think.
> Not too many games with partial press.
> I never play more than on partial press game at the time. I don't
> know if Keith has the same principles. I wouldn't underestimate Keith.
Well, I've only got 6 Email games in total and one of
those was nopress. Didin't enjoy nopress much though so
I'm just on between none and two press games at a time.
> Remember that there is also a chance to Ank-Con,Con-Bul and Smy-Arm. That
> is a pain to Russia. Even that you would end up in Black Sea. I have tried
> that one as Turk and it worked very well.
Yeah, that's always a posibility I guess but with the
Mos army going south and the threat to Ank I wouldn't
be all that worried about it, it'd mostly hurt if Mos
was going north or west I suspect. It'd give me a good
negotiation angle to try and get Austria on side with
taking Turkey down which would be good for us too.
> You are right they do reply and talk but nothing serious. I haven't
> been able to get the picture what they are going to do.
Ah, it's about reading between the lines and careful
prompting passing on just enough information from one
of the other three to them to get them to trust you
and include you in a misinformation passing loop as
well. I guess that subtle half-interpretation
half-manipulation might be more tricky for someone working
in their second language. As a Brit I don't really
have a second language to try with though of course,
to my shame.
> Well my advise is that do not move to Finland. Finland has bad memories
> of Russian troops :-) Seriously, I think it is a bad idea to move
> there. You gain nothing. I won't tell Germany a word about this 'cause my
> opinion is that you should head to Gol.
Well, the idea would be to gain more of Germany's trust
since I find myself more trusting of him than any of
my southern neighbours. It's probably not worth it of
course, you're right there.
> > Adam.............
> Why the dots?
Dunno really, I've always signed my name with them for
some reason. When I use a pen I cross the T in my surname
with a long line that more than doubles the length of
the signature so I guess it makes it look more like my
real life sig perhaps. Now that you mention it, I find it
odd that nobody else ever has before.
Adam........
From - Sat Sep 08 15:55:17 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> I can float rumors to anyone that I plan
> on moving to the Channel, which will of course get back to you, and then
> force you to "reconsider" your Sealion opening.
But if I catch wind of an English move to the Channel, then I *must*
also open there myself.
I don't think I can plausibly convince Germany of FG without opening to
the Channel. I'd have to be confident of "peace" with England before
moving to MAO, but that's not what he wants to hear.
Sealion might not be too bad for you, if you see it coming and
"outguess" it accordingly. ;-) For example, you order Nwg S Nth while
convoying to Nwy, or you could bounce Germany in Hol and limit him to a
single build. Maybe a good option for the Fall is Nwg-Nwy, Nth-Hol,
Yor-Lon. Yor-Lon limits my gain from stabbing you, and if Germany gets
only one build, he suddenly becomes an attractive target, eh?
> Unless of course you've come up with another solution,
> in which case I'm definitely willing to listen.
If you feel that you just can't risk seeing me in the Channel, you could
always get "paranoid" and bounce me. However, you then can't take Nwy
without letting G get two builds, and if he decides to try for Bel as
well then you and I are limited to at most two builds *total*. I guess
that might actually be the most secure plan for you, but I fear it would
make Germany even more of a problem over the long haul.
> Germany has made it pretty clear to me that he is going with the
> standard Blitzkrieg opening with Kie - Den. This leaves him in a position
> to pick up 3 centers should he choose to do so
He won't have a supported attack on Bel, so he gets it only if nobody
else tries for it. And if he believes the Sealion is on, he'll leave
Bel open.
Well, what do you think? Is there any way I can open to Eng and give us
a viable plan against Germany?
Rod
From - Sat Sep 08 15:55:21 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> What is the E talking about sending messages to wrong persons? Did you
> receive one that was not supposed to be sent to you?
Yes, he accidentally sent me a message intended for Germany. :-)
> I would like to start with FI relationship.
> I am willing to be out of your way and I hope you are willing to keep your
> promise to DMZ Med and to not build fleets to Mar.
Absolutely. That is the best thing for both of us.
> Would you be interested in a theatre act? We could fool the others by
> moving both to Pie. I haven't ordered there but I want to know how you
> feel about it. We could both use that bounce as a diplomatic weapon while
> we are talking with our neighbours you in west and I in the east.
I'm not sure that anyone would really be fooled - it might seem a little
suspicious that we both just happened to move to Pie. However, if you'd
like to bounce, I agree to it. Just let me know for sure whether you
will or won't open to Pie, and I'll order Mar accordingly.
> If I were a gambler I would bet my money on someone moving to ECh. Can you
> confirm :-)
I'd say that's fairly likely. ;-)
> And would you be willing to show your goodwill and to show
> that you are serious with FI by telling me your prediction about who is
> going to get Bel?
I'm still not sure about Bel myself yet, but I can tell you that I don't
really care to see either E or G get it.
Rod
From - Sat Sep 08 15:55:23 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> The big pitfall, at least right off is the channel.
> If you don't get in, you pretty much have to
> order bre - mao in the fall and build a fleet.
I agree. However, even if I do get into the Channel, success is not
guaranteed. England might "outguess" us (and if he discerns that we're
following the Sealion game plan, that shouldn't be too hard) and support
himself in Nth or try to bounce one of us out of Bel/Hol. Essentially,
we have to outguess him in the Fall, with Sealion as just one of the
possible options.
> I think Italy will behave, but I'm not so sure about England.
> In any case, we're still well positioned for '02.
I think you're right. Whether I make it into the Channel or not, I'll
be in better position if I try for it than if I don't. And if the
others leave us alone, we'll eventually grind down England even if he
makes a few lucky guesses. We might as well start that process as soon
as possible and resolve the west before the east becomes a threat.
> Any news about Austria and Turkey?
Nothing substantial. Austria is terse and Turkey chatty, but I have no
idea what's actually going to happen.
Rod
From - Sat Sep 08 15:55:26 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy and Turkey in 'gutsy':
[If Turkey is serious about EIT the I am ready to move against France.]
OK, since I seem to be the bigest proponent of this I'll send the first
joint e-mail. The more I think about this, the better idea I think it is.
The three of us are perfectly positioned to go 2 on 1 against each of the
others, with Germany as our unwitting 4th. The basic plan would be:
Italy and England go after France, hopefully with German help
Turkey heads North into Russia
ASAP, England provides help against Russia from the North
Turkey and Italy shift to squeeze Austria
That leaves us with Germany in the middle, and at that point he shouldn't be
much of a problem
Now obviously we need some ground rules that we all agree on for this to
work. Here's my proposed rules, feel free to amend them as you both see
fit.
1. Turkey builds a fleet if necessary to get into Black Sea, but from then
on builds only armies unless agreed upon before hand
2. England does not push any fleets beyond MAO.
3. Italy does not push any fleets beyond West Med or Ionian
I can't think of any other good ones off hand, but I'm sure you guys can.
The key to this alliance is that the other countries can't know that all 3
of us are working together. If we can manage that, I think we will have a
huge diplomatic advantage. Since I'm the newbie here, I'll now yield to the
two of you for adjustments and suggestions.
From - Sat Sep 08 15:55:28 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
I need to ask you an honest question. France says that he has been
discussing Sealion with you for a while now. I really don't mind if thats
the case, because I trust that you will not follow through with it. But I
need to know if you have indeed discussed it with him. If not, I know he's
really trying to play me. Let me know once you get back.
Brent
From - Sat Sep 08 15:55:29 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
My biggest concern right now is that I feel like I'm being railroaded. By
your own admission, you were talking abut the Sealion, a very aggressive and
risky opening, while you were still talking "wait and see" to me. And now
you seem to be pretty much locked into that plan with Germany, while you're
still just floating possibilities with me. All this gives me a gut feeling
that I am not your first choice of allies. Of course, I don't seem to be
Germany's either, so I'm willing to set aside that gut feeling, but I'm not
sure that I'm willing to set it aside enough to invite you into the Channel.
Is there some way that you can give me a guarantee, or at least reassurance
that I am not jut arranging my own death here?
Brent
From - Sat Sep 08 15:55:31 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> I'm off down the pub in half an hour though so this'll
> definately be me last press today.
I hope you enjoy there at the pub. You want to give the impression that
you spent some time there, so could you tell me if you drink beer or
whisky or... Are you looking for company there? Or should you go into a
night club in that case? I know this really ain't my business. I just
thought that we are almost the same age and so. In Finland people go to
Pub to get drunk (not always ofcourse) and they go to night clubs if they
want to get a partner for a night/lifetime whatever... Also finnish people
are enthuastic ice-hockey fans like brits are football fans. People tend
to go to pub to watch ice-hockey games. Are you interested in football?
Ah back to diplomacy (sorry about that).
> Akward. Have you brought up the issue with them? When I
> play Italy I'm usually anxious to chat to Austria as
> much as possible. If I and A don't talk a lot there's
> usuaully a lot of pressure to fight which tends to be
> bad for both countries.
Yes, I have talked about Greece and still they are not offering it to me
in a golden plate :-)
> Yeah, that's always a posibility I guess but with the
> Mos army going south and the threat to Ank I wouldn't
> be all that worried about it, it'd mostly hurt if Mos
> was going north or west I suspect. It'd give me a good
> negotiation angle to try and get Austria on side with
> taking Turkey down which would be good for us too.
If you dare to move Mos-Sev, Sev-Bla and you succeed. Then Turkey will be
in troubles. But the question is will you move to Mos-Ukr instead of Sev?
> Ah, it's about reading between the lines and careful
> prompting passing on just enough information from one
> of the other three to them to get them to trust you
> and include you in a misinformation passing loop as
> well. I guess that subtle half-interpretation
> half-manipulation might be more tricky for someone working
> in their second language. As a Brit I don't really
> have a second language to try with though of course,
> to my shame.
I know that I am not native but it doesn't bother me. I can always use the
excuse that I didn't understand what you said :-) No, to be serious I want
my allies to know that if there is something important they want to say to
me then it is better to say it clearly. Also I tend to look who acts like
he says. I understand that I might miss some info in between the lines but
this is only a game.
Raine
From - Sat Sep 08 16:49:18 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> My biggest concern right now is that I feel like I'm being
> railroaded.
I don't blame you. You're basically being asked to assume most of
the risk.
> By your own admission, you were talking abut the Sealion, a very
> aggressive and risky opening, while you were still talking "wait
> and see" to me.
Well, I had to discuss *something* with Germany, and that's the way
the conversation turned.
> And now you seem to be pretty much locked into that plan with
> Germany
Unfortunately, once it's been discussed and "agreed" to, there's no
plausible reason for changing my mind before the first turn. I'd have
to say, "Well, I thought it over, and I think England is peaceful, and
I *trust* him, so I've decided to open neutrally to MAO, and we can
hit him later." I think the only way Germany would not get suspicious
from a DMZ in the Channel is if he's convinced that you and I trust
each other, but given the brouhaha surrounding your press gaffe ;-) ,
that seems rather unlikely.
> All this gives me a gut feeling
> that I am not your first choice of allies.
Well, I like your voluminous press, and I think you're more trust-
worthy than the German, so I believe you'd be a better ally. But if
Germany expect me to attack you and I don't, he'll certainly catch on
that things aren't quite what they seem, and I'd rather not telegraph
our true intentions in Spring 1901.
> Is there some way that you can give me a guarantee, or at least
> reassurance that I am not jut arranging my own death here?
Consider that I've been upfront about my conversations with Germany,
and that I have informed you of the "FG" plan. As far as Germany
knows, the plan is Sealion and that's it. You're privy to the higher
plan. If I had intended to follow through with Sealion, we'd be
talking Eng DMZ, and that's all you'd know about.
Rod
From - Sat Sep 08 18:28:00 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Turkey is also my 1st pick. What do you mean that Russia will brobably
> agree anything? Do you think it is possible for us to prevent RT? So far
> Russia has spoken nice words to me (of course). He gives me the impression
> that there ain't RT. It is difficult for me to judge if he is honest.
That's what I mean. He wanted to keep Galacia open at first, but I want
to bounce there. He says he is interested, but he won't give any
specifics yet.
> There is no need for you do anything else that head for 2 builds in 1901.
> I won't even think about slowing you down. Quite the opposite.
Glad to hear it.
> 5th center: it depends a lot of the situation but Bul,Con,Gre,Mar,Smy (in
> alphabetical order) everything goes. I see that strong AI alliance is good
> for both of us. Italy seems to be the little brother in AI. Could we find
> a solution to equal that. Maybe like you say that if you get Bul I'll get
> Gre.
I'm open to anything. Austria usually gets more centers initially, but
then Italy gets more later. If I got Bul and Rum, there are few other
centers that are easy to get.
> Germany has been quiet but send a note that he would be interested in
> central power alliance. Have you talked about this with him?
I talked to Germany enough to know that we will not bother each other.
> Black Sea is interesting to both of us. It will give us clues about RT
> relations. Would you mind to guess what is going to happen there?
I don't have any idea. Neither Russia nor Turkey would be specific.
> Galicia is another important place. Do you want to tell me about it? I
> fully understand if you don't want to tell me about it. I just like the
> way one can make strong commitment to ally by telling in advance what he
> is going to do (and of course if it really happens then it should be
> easier to make that alliance work). Still I want to say that I won't feel
> bad if you decide to keep it a secred.
I'm planning to move it to Galacia.
> PS. I want to be honest with you. You can check out 'clnfite2'. I played
> the Turk. We had a brilliant AT alliance for a very long time. There was a
> very weak Italy at the beginnig that is why I don't want to take much
> glory from the result (2WD with E). Why I tell you this is that I am going
> to watch carefully AT relations :-) I am sure you and Eric do not rule
> _any_ alliance out just 'cause they are unusual.
I really don't see AT working in the long term just because I think
Turkey would be too tempted to try to conquer Austria before getting past
Italy.
Austria
From - Sat Sep 08 18:28:02 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
[You're basically being asked to assume most of the risk.]
Indeed I am. So perhaps we can reach a compromise. If I am expected to
take the majority of the risk, I should also be entitled to a majority of
the reward, right? I am willing to allow you to "stab" me in the Channel,
but I would like the reversal against Germany to come in Fall 1901 rather
than Spring 1902. Specifically, I would like to be supported into Belgium.
If I were to convoy an army to Belgium, I achieve my goal of getting a
foothold on the mainland, and you get to maintain your agreed upon opening
with Germany and also get to have your fleet sitting in the Channel, and
have an ally in attacking Germany. From there, we should be able to push
Germany back quite quickly. I'd feel much better about taking the risk of
letting you in if I know that I'm going to get something out of it. You
could of course still stab me for real, but then the usual fire and
brimstone would follow. =) Does that sound reasonable?
From - Sat Sep 08 21:19:11 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> So perhaps we can reach a compromise. If I am expected to
> take the majority of the risk, I should also be entitled to a majority of
> the reward, right? I am willing to allow you to "stab" me in the Channel,
> but I would like the reversal against Germany to come in Fall 1901 rather
> than Spring 1902. Specifically, I would like to be supported into Belgium.
I'm willing to turn against G in F01 by not supporting him to Nth, but I
must admit that I was kinda hoping to get Bel myself as per the Sealion
"plan". Otherwise, I get only one build - but I see you're point that
greater risk should carry greater reward.
> If I were to convoy an army to Belgium, I achieve my goal of getting a
> foothold on the mainland, and you get to maintain your agreed upon opening
> with Germany and also get to have your fleet sitting in the Channel, and
> have an ally in attacking Germany.
OK, but I'll need to see your army immediately push east from Bel in
1902.
> From there, we should be able to push Germany back quite quickly.
We'll have three builds total (two for you and one for me) while Germany
gets two, so we'll have an advantage. The plan that I suggested still
gets us three builds (albeit two for me and one for you) but limits
Germany to one, so it gives us even better offensive potential - though
I concede that it's a risk for you.
> I'd feel much better about taking the risk of
> letting you in if I know that I'm going to get something out of it.
Well, I definitely want to see us working together against Germany, so
if two English builds in 1901 is what it takes, then I agree. I'll open
Bre-Eng, Par-Pic, then Eng S Yor-Bel, Pic-Bur in Fall. That gives us
the option of a supported attack on Ruh in S02.
Rod
From - Sat Sep 08 21:19:16 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Sounds good. I'll decide "against my better judgement" not to open to the
Channel and instead go for the standard Churchill opening. As long as I can
keep Russia from opening Mos-StP (have you heard anything about that one way
or the other?), I should get two. Fleet Edi and A Lon sound like they'd
work the best. In 1902, Belgium makes a move to Ruhr or Holland depending
on how things are going. Glad to be able to reach an agreement!
Brent
From - Sat Sep 08 21:19:18 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
> As long as I can keep Russia from opening Mos-StP
> (have you heard anything about that one way
> or the other?), I should get two.
He told me that he isn't sure about what's going on in the south, so my
guess would be that Nwy will be uncontested.
> Fleet Edi and A Lon sound like they'd work the best.
Sounds good to me.
> In 1902, Belgium makes a move to Ruhr or Holland depending
> on how things are going.
Agreed.
> Glad to be able to reach an agreement!
Indeed! A little compromise is always better than going it alone. :-)
Rod
From - Sun Sep 09 18:11:03 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
In you registeration it says that you are in University of Rochester. What
are you studying/researching? Are you doing your Masters or PhD thesis ?
Or have you already done your PhD and work there as a scientist?
Diplomatic note:
Would you prefer to see my army in Venice or should I move away for
example to Pie?
Italy
From - Sun Sep 09 18:11:14 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
Adam,
> Keith seems to be a fan of bounces in general I guess,
Bounces are safe, though I'm not a big fan of them, myself, since they
don't accomplish anything except ensuring that the province remains
unoccupied.
> > There are basically three options.
I missed the fourth option, agreeing to a DMZ. (Sev HOLD, Ank-Con)
> Sounds like quite a commitment from your units, tying
> up Ank and Smy on the far east border for a whole year.
Well, there's almost nothing for A Smy to do in 1901, anyway.
> > or RF Sev-Bla, then RF Bla-Con, then RF Con-Aeg
>
> I have heard rumours of such a move but never seen it
> in practice. It would be very trusting of you to let
> me get away with such a thing and very tempting to
> accidentally screw the move out of Con up.
That's why it's almost never done. 8-)
> Presumably, if the fleet takes Rum in the fall, it would
> be possible to dislodge and disband the fleet at the point
> when we swapped Rumania into Turkish hands.
Sev-Rum in the Fall makes RT cooperation against Austria difficult,
though. (RF Rum can't support attacks on Ser or Bud.)
> Do we have any idea what Austria and Italy are planning?
Not really. I suspect that Austria plans to be conservative, and see
what develops. Italy remains quiet, but England and I are lobbying in
favor of Italy attacking France.
> My money is on them just not sending a great deal of press to anyone
That seems to be the case, which is deadly for AI at this level.
> Keith wants to bounce in Gal and I think I'll go along with that
Yeah, if he wants it there's no real reason not too.
> I think I favour bouncing in Bla as well.
I lean toward Sev Hold, Mos-Ukr, Ank-Con, followed by Con-Aeg,
Sev S Ukr-Rum, myself.
Eric the Turk.
From - Sun Sep 09 19:04:47 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> In you registeration it says that you are in University of Rochester. What
> are you studying/researching? Are you doing your Masters or PhD thesis ?
> Or have you already done your PhD and work there as a scientist?
I am a graduate student in the Brain & Cognitive Sciences department. I
should finish by PhD thesis in a few months. I'm studying perceptual
processes in the brain.
> Would you prefer to see my army in Venice or should I move away for
> example to Pie?
I don't mind much. I would just of course not want to see your having
armies in both Tyrolia and Venice.
What have you decided to do? What are you hearing from Turkey, France
and Russia?
Austria
From - Sun Sep 09 20:52:13 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
That one's a little tricky to answer. If I say "yes", it looks like I'm
being underhanded and backstabbing, if I say "no", it looks like I'm being
incompentent. So, you probably should ask yourself: "What would a high
JPDR France and Germany be discussing?" :)
Did what I say about Russia make any sense? I've followed my hunches before
and got burnt so I thought I pass it by you (afterall, you're the most
immediately effected). I'm curious what you think of Adam and what you
think he'll do.
Write when you have the chance. We still have a day or to to coordinate
further if you like, but I bet the big coordination will come in the fall.
Right now, we're just feeling each other out for potential partners.
Thanks for writing. I'll be around for the next couple of days.
- Steve
P.S. Oh yeah, one other thing. I really don't care too much what you and
Rod have been talking about; if you'd like to share, I'm all ears, but
otherwise, no biggie. What matters most to me is what we say to each other
and how we build *our* relationship. From what you've written, I think you
feel the same way. As I said in my last note, I'd love to see you take the
channel or failing that, a bounce, but if you feel you can trust Rod enough
to leave the channel open, I would have no problems with a North Sea,
Norwegian Sea opening. That would guarantee you a center which could be
used to force the channel later.
As always, the real lightnining rod is Belgium and that's best left to the
fall.
From - Sun Sep 09 20:52:19 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
Thanks for the note. We're thinking along the same general lines here,
above and beyond the specifics of Sealion.
There are far too many good players in this game for either side of the
board to get bogged down for long. Good players recognize the need to
resolve these things quickly and move on. Positionally, Turkey and Italy
could afford to move a little more slowly, but Austria and Russia must
strike fast.
The other thing we agree on is the need to be flexible for the first couple
of years. Bre - Eng might not work or Norwegian might support the North
Sea, etc. Funny thing is we have to strike fast yet be patient. That makes
sense doesn't it?
Well, I've rambled enough for now. Write if you want to work out some
details.
Also, England's been pressing like a madman. Thought you should know.
- Steve
From - Mon Sep 10 18:46:18 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
My turn to apologize again. I was gone for the weekend and just now read
your letter. Lucky we don't have to coordinate much this turn unless you're
thinking of Ven - Pie. Are you? :)
> Can you get into a net at weekends? Or do you prefer
> to spend your weekend free from dipping?
I have net access 7-days a week, but I'm not always on line. The last
couple of weekends have been holiday weekends. The next one will be as
well. When I'm here, I love talking dip on the weekend.
> Could you clarify this English broadcast where he spoke about sending
> stuff to wrong person? Do you think it was meant to be that way?
I think Brent (England) made an honest mistake. I don't think anyone
(especially me) holds it against him.
Now, you raised a couple of questions which I will do my best to answer:
> Could you give me your opinion about GI?
As I see it, an early game GI is not all that effective unless the first
target in France and even then only one unit (A Ven) can be brought into
play quickly enough. Italy could go after Austria (like the "Fasta, Fasta"
strategy), but Germany problably could not help out much right away.
> There might be a need for 3rd parner, right? Who and why?
Russia. IR alone is very effective as long as Germany concentrates on the
west. Together GIR can sweep the board clean.
> What are the unwanted alliances between opponents?
Just the usual RT and EF. Any other pairing is not a problem.
> What should Italy do at the beginning?
Italy should work as hard as he can to resolve the Eastern Square.
Cooperate with whomever needed to to get the job done.
> What should Germany do at the beginning?
Germany should work as hard as he can to resolve the Western Triangle.
Cooperate with whomever needed to get the job done.
You also asked about Sweden. Unless Russia moves into Silesia or Prussia, I
will let him have Sweden. Hopefully that will give him the build he needs
to make war in the south.
Thanks for writing.
- Steve
From - Mon Sep 10 18:46:25 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
[That one's a little tricky to answer. If I say "yes", it looks like I'm
being underhanded and backstabbing, if I say "no", it looks like I'm being
incompentent. So, you probably should ask yourself: "What would a high
JPDR France and Germany be discussing?" :)]
Thats fine, I just wanted to know that he wasn't completely yanking my
chain. He says he's been trying to argue away from the Sealion, which may
or may not be true, but I just wanted to make sure he wasn't completely
making stuff up. Like I said, I feel pretty confident about which side you
are on so I'm not worried about what you are discussing with France, except
as it pertains to my assessment of his truthfulness.
As for the Russia thing, I asked him and haven't heard back yet. In fact,
I haven't heard from him all weekend, so it may be that he only has access
during the week. I'm sure I'll hear something back by tomorrow night, if
not I'l being to suspect that something is up. I can't imagine him wanting
to send Moscow north and pick up a third enemy if he's already struggling
with the two to his South, but I may be underestimating the powers of
manipulation that Keith and Eric have. If it does look like he's
considering that move, would you be willing to threaten to hold him out of
Sweden? If I'm going to be of any help against France I'm going to need at
least one build, so its either got to come from there or Belgium (ideally
both).
Thanks for the latitude you're giving me with the opening. I hope that
you will find it advantageous to continue to work iwht me in the future!
Brent
From - Mon Sep 10 18:46:28 2001
Broadcast message from thorfinn+dip at tertius.net.au as Observer in 'gutsy':
So... since we've got observer press enabled... :) Any observers want to
take a stab (ha-ha) at the likely initial alliance structure(s)?
Or shall we wait until at least S1901M is out before we start
kibitzing...
*grin*,
Thorf
From - Mon Sep 10 18:46:33 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
It is no problem that we are not talking more at the moment as there
really ain't too much we can do together. Sure it would be nice to know
more about your plans :-)
> your letter. Lucky we don't have to coordinate much this turn unless you're
> thinking of Ven - Pie. Are you? :)
I think it is possible but not the most probable move :)
> I think Brent (England) made an honest mistake. I don't think anyone
> (especially me) holds it against him.
I have seen mistakenly sent press turned into a favour of the sender. So
be prepared.
> As I see it, an early game GI is not all that effective unless the first
> target in France and even then only one unit (A Ven) can be brought into
> play quickly enough. Italy could go after Austria (like the "Fasta, Fasta"
> strategy), but Germany problably could not help out much right away.
I agree with you. I see GI in the start more like diplomatic weapon. We
can help each other by sharing information.
> Russia. IR alone is very effective as long as Germany concentrates on the
> west. Together GIR can sweep the board clean.
Any specific plans how to organize this? I mean to tell you the truth I
think that I have been left out of the diploming! Turkey and Austria seem
to be _very_ silent. That's why GIR sounds reasonable to me. I understand
the Eric's position while he is playing many games but I would like to
hear more from him.
> Just the usual RT and EF. Any other pairing is not a problem.
My personal view is: EF unlikely (I got no proof just a feeling), RT
maybe due to silent T. How probable do you see RT,EF?
Has AT been talking to you much? I should be hearing more of them...
Raine
From - Mon Sep 10 18:46:37 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Austria,
Good luck in your studies. I am an astronomer. I hope I can finish
my PhD in a few years. We have Licenciate thesis between M.Sc. and
Ph.D. One can skip this licenciate thing as it is not obligatory but at
least in my field people usually make their Phil.Lic. first.
> I am a graduate student in the Brain & Cognitive Sciences department. I
> should finish by PhD thesis in a few months. I'm studying perceptual
> processes in the brain.
Is it more like psychology or medicine? Sorry about my ignorance, please
remember that I am not native english speaker :-) I try to use that as an
excuse as much as possible ;-)
> I don't mind much. I would just of course not want to see your having
> armies in both Tyrolia and Venice.
Then you don't need to worry a thing. I have not decided what to do but I
am not coming after you while there is that silent Turk.
> What have you decided to do? What are you hearing from Turkey, France
> and Russia?
My problem is that I hear even less from Turkey than from you :-( France
is very talkative. I would like to change it to talkative Austria and
silent France if I could. Russia is also talkative to be a borderline
alcoholic. Russia has been suggesting RAI co-operation against Turkey.
I have nothing against that. We just need to talk more about that.
What are you hearing from Turkey, France and Russia?
Italy
From - Mon Sep 10 18:46:38 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
We should ally due to 'R' as Rod and Raine :-) That is as good reason as
we should ally against France due to fact that France is the best power
according to stats. I should be named the winner due to fact that Italy is
the last in those stats :-)
> Yes, he accidentally sent me a message intended for Germany. :-)
OUCH! That hurts. That should give you the advantage to get to FG against
E.
> I'm not sure that anyone would really be fooled - it might seem a little
> suspicious that we both just happened to move to Pie. However, if you'd
> like to bounce, I agree to it. Just let me know for sure whether you
> will or won't open to Pie, and I'll order Mar accordingly.
Maybe no-one is fooled but the bounce could be used as 'I tried my best to
attack France but he guessed it' :-) So are you saying that it makes no
difference to you if we bounce there or not?
> > If I were a gambler I would bet my money on someone moving to ECh. Can you
> > confirm :-)
>
> I'd say that's fairly likely. ;-)
Fairly likely :-) That is the sentence I love. It tells you that is
needed :-)
Raine
From - Mon Sep 10 18:46:40 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England and Turkey in
'gutsy':
England, Turkey,
> 1. Turkey builds a fleet if necessary to get into Black Sea, but from then
> on builds only armies unless agreed upon before hand
It would be much easier if Turkey gets to Bla without that 2nd fleet
i.e. by talking to Russia to let that happen. Eric you have the skills to
do that.
> 2. England does not push any fleets beyond MAO.
I agree.
> 3. Italy does not push any fleets beyond West Med or Ionian
I agree.
> I can't think of any other good ones off hand, but I'm sure you guys can.
> The key to this alliance is that the other countries can't know that all 3
> of us are working together. If we can manage that, I think we will have a
> huge diplomatic advantage. Since I'm the newbie here, I'll now yield to the
> two of you for adjustments and suggestions.
If you are newbie then I would say that I am a newbie too :-)
To both of you before you reply to this mail could you give me a note and
comment my last personal note to you?
Italy
From - Mon Sep 10 18:46:41 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
You Wrote >
> To both of you before you reply to this mail could you give me a note and
> comment my last personal note to you?
Whoops! Sorry, I sent this to you days ago, but used my password from
'titleist' so it didn't actually get to you. Here it is again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Raine, good to hear from you,
>I just have hard times to find time to diplome.
Understood. (Though a native English speaker
would probably say, "I am just having a hard time
finding time to diplome.", (or perhaps 'just having
difficulty')).
>I really appreciate if you can
>continue correcting my language.
Glad to help, though you are already perfectly
understandable.
>Did you know that Flying Finn is also used when people talk
>about finnish rallye drivers from 60's? Timo Mäkinen etc.
I discovered that when I did a web search on "flying
finn" to find the correct spelling of "Nurmi". (I also
thought "Paavo" was "Pavel", but that's Russian, I suppose.
>TI is indeed an unusual alliance. In principle are you willing to
>build only armies to make it possible to have TI alliance?
If you're willing to agree to an Ionian DMZ,
yes. It balances pretty well, since if I build a
Fleet in the Winter, you can move into Ion in the
Spring, and if you move into Ion in the Spring,
I can move Bla-Con in the Fall, and hopefully build
F Smy in the Winter. I'm not insisting that you
not move to Ion in S1901M, but opening to TyS does
give you a shot at Spain in 1902.
>Would you _really_ like to try something as weird as TI?
Turkey's only "normal" alliance is Russia, and
the Juggernaut produces such a reaction that's it's
almost always better to go for something "weird".
>Good luck in 'titleist'.
Thanks, I may be the highest rated player in 'gutsy',
but I'm the 5th highest in 'titleist', so I need all
the luck I can get.
Eric the Turk.
From - Mon Sep 10 18:46:43 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
At last. I was wondering what is going on 'cause you were silent.
> finn" to find the correct spelling of "Nurmi". (I also
> thought "Paavo" was "Pavel", but that's Russian, I suppose.
Pavel is Slavic name. I am not sure where it comes exactly but it isn't
finnish name.
> If you're willing to agree to an Ionian DMZ,
> yes. It balances pretty well, since if I build a
> Fleet in the Winter, you can move into Ion in the
> Spring, and if you move into Ion in the Spring,
> I can move Bla-Con in the Fall, and hopefully build
> F Smy in the Winter. I'm not insisting that you
> not move to Ion in S1901M, but opening to TyS does
> give you a shot at Spain in 1902.
No I cannot promise to be out of Ion. I really do not have enough proof
that there ain't RT or that you are serious about TI. Afterall TI _is_
unusual so I don't want to commit myself to west without a proof of your
goodwill.
I could imagine Ion empty, I mean, I might take Tunis with fleet. There
just have to be enough evidence that you are not against me and that you
are willing to commit to this unusual TI alliance.
Another way to free the Ion is if you support me to Greece later. The best
start for TI is if you can manage to move to Black Sea. BTW how much do
you believe in your chances to get to Bla at all? Have you fooled our
'bordeline alcoholic' so that you'll end up in Bla?
Raine
From - Mon Sep 10 18:46:50 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
Sorry, in my rush to push the EIT alliance, I forgot to answer some of the
other questions in your last message.
[You talked about Sealion. Where did you got this rumour?]
I don't want to reveal my source at this point, but it seems to be
unsubstantiated for the most part. I haven't heard any sort of
corraboration from anyone else.
[This is obviously my main concern. RT is not what I am looking for. Do you
have detailed plans how you are going after Russia?]
Not yet, but I think the goal would be to press the attack through
Scandanavia by convoying an army to Norway either in 1901 or 1902 and then
getting Turkey's help in getting past the StP blockade. Obviously it
depends largely on how the attack on France goes.
Once again, sorry for not addressing these earlier, and I hope that clears
up some of the confusion.
Brent
From - Mon Sep 10 18:46:51 2001
Broadcast message [from Elladan915 at netzero.net,Dip_Power at hotmail.com as
Turkey] in 'gutsy':
>Broadcast message from Observer Thorf in 'gutsy':
>
>Any observers want to take a stab (ha-ha) at the likely initial alliance
>structure(s)?
Two Western Powers will ally against the third,
and two Eastern Powers will ally, and Italy will join
them to eliminate the fourth. :)
Dixon Warwick,
Astrologer to the Great Powers.
From - Mon Sep 10 18:46:53 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
>I was wondering what is going on
My apologies. I'm having a surprising amount of
trouble shifting back and forth between 'titleist'
and 'gutsy'. I guess it's because they are both
high level games, and therefore are trying to
demand my full attention.
>No I cannot promise to be out of Ion. I really do not have enough proof
>that there ain't RT or that you are serious about TI. Afterall TI _is_
>unusual so I don't want to commit myself to west without a proof of your
>goodwill.
("proof that there isn't an RT" and "commit myself
to the west without proof of")
Of course, conversely, the Lepanto is perhaps
Italy's most common opening, and even if I open
Ank-Con, and Build F Smy, I won't be able to take
Ion before 1903, so for me to commit to an IT without
an agreement for a DMZ of Ion is a bigger risk for
me, than agreeing to the DMZ is for you. Nap-Ion,
Ven-Pie, Rom-Ven, followed by Ion-Tun would work,
though.
>Another way to free the Ion is if you support me to Greece later.
Ummm, no. An Italian Fleet in Greece is almost
as threatening as one in Ion is.
>The best start for TI is if you can manage to move to Black Sea.
Agreed, but that's one of those things you can
never be sure of until the moves process.
>BTW how much do you believe in your chances to get to Bla at all?
Negotiations with Adam are ongoing. At this
point it looks like a bounce in Bla is likely, but
I'm arguing in favor of a DMZ. Have you gotten any
indications from Keith about which way he plans to
head?
Eric the Turk.
From - Mon Sep 10 18:46:59 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> Also, England's been pressing like a madman. Thought you should
> know.
I'd be surprised if he weren't. :-) His stance with me is that he
wants EF cooperation, but he needs two builds in 1901. I don't think
that's going to happen. ;-)
Rod
From - Mon Sep 10 18:46:57 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> We should ally due to 'R' as Rod and Raine :-)
I agree! That's an excellent basis for an alliance. :-)
> I should be named the winner due to fact that Italy is
> the last in those stats :-)
As long as you don't get the centers from me. ;-)
> So are you saying that it makes no
> difference to you if we bounce there or not?
I don't think I'll need to order Mar-Bur, so the army is available to
bounce in Pie. We might as well do it, so I'll go ahead and order
Mar-Pie unless I hear differently from you. Please confirm.
Rod
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:00 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
> I hope you enjoy there at the pub. You want to give the impression that
> you spent some time there, so could you tell me if you drink beer or
> whisky or... Are you looking for company there?
I usually drink Cider, which is kinda like beer and kinda
like wine and brewed from apples. Usually I'd be meeting from
friends, it's easier to organise doing that in a pub than get
into arguments over who's house we should trash or who gets
to travel the most we just pick a pub about half way between
the flats. On Saturday we just sat around talking about Science
and Politics.
> Or should you go into a night club in that case?
> I know this really ain't my business. I just
> thought that we are almost the same age and so.
Probably if you were tooking to pull you'd go to a night club
but increasingly they are more populated with people who want
to take Extacy and dance, which is also fine with me of course.
We did go on to "Slimelight" after the pub closed in the end
on Saturday which is a big Goth club in north London. It's
funny, lots of people dressed in strange and exotic clothes.
> In Finland people go to
> Pub to get drunk (not always ofcourse) and they go to night clubs if they
> want to get a partner for a night/lifetime whatever...
Sounds pretty similar.
> Also finnish people
> are enthuastic ice-hockey fans like brits are football fans. People tend
> to go to pub to watch ice-hockey games. Are you interested in football?
I don't have a lot of experience with Ice Hockey but I'd probably
rather watch that to football to be honest. Looks like it'd be
faster moving and more people would fall over. I do occasionally
go watch the International soccer games in the pub with my friends
but I'd usually be happier if they turned the TV off and stopped
cheering people who can't even hear them anyway.
> Yes, I have talked about Greece and still they are not offering it
> to me in a golden plate :-)
It's early to be doing that unless really pressed I guess,
we'll have to see how the first moves go. Turkey has
written trying to get A SEV H rather than the Bla bounce
but I'll pressure for the bounce a little longer. Like
I said, we want to keep F Ank from sailing into the Med
for as long as possible.
> If you dare to move Mos-Sev, Sev-Bla and you succeed. Then Turkey will be
> in troubles. But the question is will you move to Mos-Ukr instead of Sev?
I'm pretty sure I'l send Mos to Ukr. An army in Rum is much
more useful than a fleet.
> I know that I am not native but it doesn't bother me. I can always use the
> excuse that I didn't understand what you said :-) No, to be serious I want
> my allies to know that if there is something important they want to say to
> me then it is better to say it clearly.
I usually try to, if only because it removes room for
deliberate misunderstanding. It's remarkable how
normally intelegent people can misunderstand you if
it's to their advantage :)
> Also I tend to look who acts like
> he says. I understand that I might miss some info in
> between the lines but this is only a game.
Indeed, and as you said it's probably a good way to improve
your grasp over the language, though be carful that should
you ever visit England you don't end up talking about invading
Liverpool with your armies when you just want a day-trip to
the beach there. Heh.
Adam..........
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:02 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Good luck in your studies. I am an astronomer. I hope I can finish
> my PhD in a few years. We have Licenciate thesis between M.Sc. and
> Ph.D. One can skip this licenciate thing as it is not obligatory but at
> least in my field people usually make their Phil.Lic. first.
I used to be an astronomy. I got my first degree in physics, then I went
to graduate school for astronomy. I didn't like the program I was in, I
I decided to leave after I passed my exams and got a Masters degree. I
was doing computational models of extragalactic radio sources.
> Is it more like psychology or medicine? Sorry about my ignorance, please
> remember that I am not native english speaker :-) I try to use that as an
> excuse as much as possible ;-)
Yes, it is a mixture of psychology and medicine.
> > I don't mind much. I would just of course not want to see your having
> > armies in both Tyrolia and Venice.
>
> Then you don't need to worry a thing. I have not decided what to do but I
> am not coming after you while there is that silent Turk.
That is good to hear. Do you know what you're going to do?
> My problem is that I hear even less from Turkey than from you :-(
What, I have not communicated enough? I've written to you at least as
many times as you've written to me.
> I have nothing against that. We just need to talk more about that.
This would be my preference. Of course we have to figure out how to make
sure we get all the Turkish centers and not Russia.
> What are you hearing from Turkey, France and Russia?
Nothing from France, nothing from Turkey in quite a long time, and
nothing lately from Russia. Hmm... perhaps this is some cause for concern.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:04 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Eric,
> Bounces are safe, though I'm not a big fan of them, myself, since they
> don't accomplish anything except ensuring that the province remains
> unoccupied.
They do have a kind of extortion value, if you want to keep
that province open then you'll have to move to it with unit X
which keeps unit X from doing something worse I suppose. They
do often seem like a waste though.
> Sev-Rum in the Fall makes RT cooperation against Austria difficult,
> though. (RF Rum can't support attacks on Ser or Bud.)
You're right actually, I remember being frustrated with a fleet
in Rum many times before. It will be better to take that with
A Mos.
> Not really. I suspect that Austria plans to be conservative, and see
> what develops. Italy remains quiet, but England and I are lobbying in
> favor of Italy attacking France.
Italy suddenly got fairly chatty this weekend, sending
press quite quickly but saying very little about the game.
I think my own tendency to get distracted and end up talking
about other things may be compounded with him practicing
his english at me. For what it's worth I get the impression
that he's not thought much beyond getting Tunis in 1901 and
seeing what the situation is then. If Austria is looking
weakened he'll probably take his slice.
> > Keith wants to bounce in Gal and I think I'll go along with that
>
> Yeah, if he wants it there's no real reason not too.
Especially since I don't want to see him in Gal and someone
(probably Germany, can't remember) reckons they've seen him
move to Gal as Austria many many times.
> I lean toward Sev Hold, Mos-Ukr, Ank-Con, followed by Con-Aeg,
> Sev S Ukr-Rum, myself.
Hummm. Just holding feels like more or a waste of a unit than
bouncing does but I see your point, it does give Ank more
time to get unti the Med. Won't such blatent early cooperation
give Keith the excuse he needs to convince Italy that a
juggernaught is forming? The bounce is a small disguise about
equivilent to Superman putting on a pair of glasses but
they always fall for it in the comics.
Adam.........
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:06 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hello, any news? Italy seems a bit edgy, and I'm not sure how to react.
I hven't heard from you lately. How did the negotiations with Russia go?
Austria
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:07 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hello, any news? How did the negotiations with Turkey go? Is the bounce
in Galacia still okay?
Have you heard anything from Italy?
Austria
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:08 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
Brent,
Definately feels as thought there is more press flying
around in the west than in the east. It can make me a
little jealous but the number of rumours and lies can
start to get unbelieveable when you have a whole week
at game-start to spread them.
> [France suggested to me that I move Mos up to StP this spring and possibly
> deny you Nwy in the fall with it.]
> Yikes, thats pretty unfriendly of him. Norway is my one and only build I
> can count on, so denying me that would be like an all out declaration of
> war.
I hadn't even thought about it being possible before,
it's obviously pretty uncommon. I'm far too concerned with
my neighbours in the south to be putting myself under
unneeded stress up north.
> Of course, that probably suits France just fine, which is why he
> suggested it. And don't let him get away with using that mis-sent press as
> an excuse for validating anti-English moves, the fact is there wasn't
> anything inherently anti-French in it, and he knows it was only an opening
> letter. If he's turning against me its because of his own reasons, not
> because of the mistake I made.
Well, let's face it, even if you were his ally against Germany
it never does all THAT much harm for your allies to have a little
harrassment from others. Certainly it makes it a little easier
to make gains more quickly.
> With this "suggestion" in mind, I am even more in favor of the
> demilitarized Scandanavia. We each take our one center and then move away,
> you to BAL, Germany to Kiel or something, and me back to North or Norwegian.
Yeah, it's a nice dream but I don't really see it as practical
as long as you have a fleet in Nth (and you'd be a fool to give
that up) you're only one fall-stab away from taking Denmark. I
guess it might be possible to bounce in Den every single move but
then you can't use Nth to convoy into the lowlands either.
There's no way Germany will agree if there's an English unit
on the Denmark border in Nth the whole time.
> As long as you don't build in StP, everyone stays safe and concentrate the
> rest of their units elsewhere. And if anyone does break the agreement, they
> know they will be facing the wrath of both the other countries. Have you
> reached a point where you fell safe making this agreement (pending German
> approval as well)?
Well, we couldn't even try to go through with the arrangement until
1902 so agreeing it until then would be pretty pointless with all
the unexpected things that could happen, I also think that getting
the German approval would be impossible, this is probably why we
don't see it happen much. If I were Germany there's no way I'd
agree unless Nth were included in the zone and if I were England
there's no way I'd agree to leave Nth unattended.
On other matters, Turkey tells me you have both been lobbying Italy
to stride out west into France. How have you been getting on with
that? How have you been getting on with Turkey?
Adam.
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:11 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
Keith,
> Hello, any news?
Not really. There seems to have been a lot more press bouncing
around in the West than here in the East. As far as that is
concerned I can see E/G V F or F/G vs E but FE vs G looks
pretty unlikely, there seem to be some personality clashes
between France and England.
> How did the negotiations with Turkey go?
Not completely over by quite a stretch but into the final
stages, just deciding exactly what to do in Bla. I favour
a bounce in the spring but Eric seems to prefer that Sev
hold and Ank move to Con.
> Is the bounce in Galacia still okay?
Yes, in fact it's my prefered move now, we should definately
try for that. Germany has agreed that I can take Swe so
long as I stay out of Pru/Sil and since I suspect it's
more or less up to him who he chooses to side with in
the west he's in a powerful enough position that he
probably doesn't want any fuss in Scandanavia right now.
> Have you heard anything from Italy?
Raine got suddenly quite chatty this Saturday and we fired
a few messages back and forth during Saturday afternoon.
Mostly we ended up talking about things other than Diplomacy.
I suspect my natural tendency to get distracted is encouraged
by his practicing his English on me. With respect to the game
though it seems that Eric(T) and Brent(E) have been trying to get
him to move on France while I've been trying to get him to get
in touch with you about going after Turkey. I doubt he's
made up much of a mind about it but I'm surprised if you're
saying he hasn't been in touch with you over the issue at
all. What's he said to you?
Adam.........
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:14 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to England in 'gutsy':
Hi, are you trying to get Italy to move West? He's not letting on, and I
figure he is trying to hide something. I'm a bit worried that he is
going to attack me.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:15 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> > Have you heard anything from Italy?
>
> Raine got suddenly quite chatty this Saturday and we fired
> a few messages back and forth during Saturday afternoon.
> Mostly we ended up talking about things other than Diplomacy.
> I suspect my natural tendency to get distracted is encouraged
> by his practicing his English on me. With respect to the game
> though it seems that Eric(T) and Brent(E) have been trying to get
> him to move on France while I've been trying to get him to get
> in touch with you about going after Turkey. I doubt he's
> made up much of a mind about it but I'm surprised if you're
> saying he hasn't been in touch with you over the issue at
> all. What's he said to you?
He has mentioned that you had contacted him about jointly attacking
Turkey, but he's not sure he wants to do that.
I think that if we two attack Turkey, it should be enough, though it
would be nice if Italy devoted at least a fleet to the effort.
Italy claims not to hear anything from Turkey at all. Why is it you think
Turkey has tried to convince Italy to move West?
Austria
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:19 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi,
In an earlier letter you talked about great opportunities for late-game
cooperation. Is there anything we could be doing now to make sure that
happens? In particular, what would you like to have happend in Sweden?
I've been asked a lot about that, but not by either your or Keith. Strikes
me as strange that's all.
So, I've sent a couple of questions your way. Any for me?
Write if you can.
- Steve
P.S. I checked the mirror and I just couldn't find that durned power-circle
thing anywhere. Maybe one of my neighbors has taken it and will have it
fully charged by fall. I understand such things sometimes require a few
months to power-up. :)
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:20 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I think that if we two attack Turkey, it should be enough, though it
> would be nice if Italy devoted at least a fleet to the effort.
Well, the astrologist who broadcast just now thought that Italy
would join in on the attack in the east whoever it was directed
at. I don't think he'd try to rescue Turkey if we started in
that direction.
> Italy claims not to hear anything from Turkey at all. Why is it you think
> Turkey has tried to convince Italy to move West?
Turkey said so in a message last night. It may be a fairly recent
thing I guess but for some reason it didn't ring quite true to
me either so I wrote to England to ask for confirmation. England
hasn't replied as yet. I'll let you know when he does.
Adam......
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:24 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Message from Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>Hello, any news? Italy seems a bit edgy, and I'm not sure how to react. I
>hven't heard from you lately. How did the negotiations with Russia go?
Things have gotten rather 'interesting' in
'titleist', so I haven't been spending as much time
on 'gutsy' as I should have. England and I are
encouraging Italy to attack France, (it's good for
both of us, afterall), so I suppose that might have
him wondering what's going on. Adam and I have talked
a lot, but we haven't really come to any conclusions,
so I expect to see War-Gal, Mos-Ukr, Sev-Bla, and no
alliances formed before 1902. (Of course, if you
endorse Italy -> France, that would open up room
for my Fleets in an AT alliance.)
Eric the Turk.
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:25 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
I understand that in the early years England has more important people to
talk to than Italy. Later when we are about to win this game I hope you
don't forget me ;-)
> [You talked about Sealion. Where did you got this rumour?]
> I don't want to reveal my source at this point, but it seems to be
> unsubstantiated for the most part. I haven't heard any sort of
> corraboration from anyone else.
This is why I like high rated games. People say that they are not going to
tell something rather than they are just silent. I appreciate that. You
can always say that 'I'd rather keep that a secret'. I don't mind about
it. I prefer to hear honest refusal than silence.
> Once again, sorry for not addressing these earlier, and I hope that clears
> up some of the confusion.
Brent, no need to feel sorry. I understand. EI have other people to talk
to first.
I have one important note to you: France is trying to give me the
impression of good FG relations. I asked about Piedmond (to get something
to talk about) and he was ready to move there if I wanted to bounce
there. That means that he is not afraid of Mun-Bur for example. Other
possibility is that you have agreed to try western triple and France isn't
really with you. I hope this helps you to build your strategy.
Raine
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:27 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
>In an earlier letter you talked about great opportunities for late-game
>cooperation. Is there anything we could be doing now to make sure that
>happens? In particular, what would you like to have happen in Sweden?
>I've been asked a lot about that, but not by either your or Keith. Strikes
>me as strange that's all.
Keith's been universally quiet, it seems, and I
have been a bit busy with 'titleist', unfortunately.
As far as Swe goes, Russia was the strongest Power on
the board in the early days of postal play, because
Germany rarely bounced Russia out of Sweden. When
Germany started bouncing Bot-Swe, Russia's solo rate
went way down, so I have to vote in favor of Kie-Den,
followed by Den-Swe in F1901M. How does the West seem
to be shaping up? If you could let Italy know that
you wouldn't mind seeing him attack France early, that
would probably help us both make it to the mid-game.
>I checked the mirror and I just couldn't find that durned power-circle
>thing anywhere. Maybe one of my neighbors has taken it and will have >it
>fully charged by fall. I understand such things sometimes require a few
>months to power-up. :)
*chuckle* Yeah, it often doesn't appear until
1902.
Eric the Turk.
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:28 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Cider is a popular amongst young adults here. It can also be made of pear.
> the flats. On Saturday we just sat around talking about Science
> and Politics.
Science, that is interesting. Do you have some special topic or is it more
like changing? I'm not too familiar with Brit politics but labour and what
was that other party? Never mind. It is not that important.
> Probably if you were tooking to pull you'd go to a night club
> but increasingly they are more populated with people who want
> to take Extacy and dance, which is also fine with me of course.
Extacy and other stuff like that is not popular here. At least I don't
see it. Maybe the youngster are here using drugs more than I know.
Traditionally stereotype man here is drinking much 'kossu' it is
officially Koskenkorva, finnish vodka.
> We did go on to "Slimelight" after the pub closed in the end
> on Saturday which is a big Goth club in north London. It's
> funny, lots of people dressed in strange and exotic clothes.
I have once been in London. It was almost ten years ago. So I don't know
about the places there. Some of my friends have taken this goth thing a
bit seriously. Only black clothes and fanny rings (not traditional rings
don't know what they are called).
> I don't have a lot of experience with Ice Hockey but I'd probably
> rather watch that to football to be honest. Looks like it'd be
> faster moving and more people would fall over.
*smile*
> It's early to be doing that unless really pressed I guess,
> we'll have to see how the first moves go. Turkey has
> written trying to get A SEV H rather than the Bla bounce
> but I'll pressure for the bounce a little longer. Like
> I said, we want to keep F Ank from sailing into the Med
> for as long as possible.
Turk is trying to talk me into TI alliance where he could attack you and I
should attack France. Hah! No way.
> I'm pretty sure I'l send Mos to Ukr. An army in Rum is much
> more useful than a fleet.
Russia has to be sure that he gets to Black Sea in order to move to Sev
instead of Ukraine.
> I usually try to, if only because it removes room for
> deliberate misunderstanding. It's remarkable how
> normally intelegent people can misunderstand you if
> it's to their advantage :)
I know that. Sometimes it is called a stab and sometimes a good
tactics :-)
> Indeed, and as you said it's probably a good way to improve
> your grasp over the language, though be carful that should
Indeed. If you can spare a thought every now and then please let me know
if there's some typical errors I made.
Raine
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:40 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Cider is a popular amongst young adults here. It can also be made of pear.
Ah, Perry would be the name of it if it's made from pears
over here. It's not nearly so popular as cider is though.
I find it slightly depressing that all the carbonated
filtered almost tasteless ciders are the ones you can
get most easily but the flat, cloudy tasty and strong
ones you have to drive to a farm to buy from some
amateur brewery in the West Country. Or at the occasional
beer festival.
Still, I guess most Ale drinkers have that same problem.
> Science, that is interesting. Do you have some special topic or is it more
> like changing?
Christian and I were trying to explain some of the bits
of quantum physics and relativity to Sye, even though
we don't really understand either ourselves truth be
known, I did A level physics but most of it's come
from pop-sci books frankly and is no doubt almost
entirely inaccurate.
> I'm not too familiar with Brit politics but labour and what
> was that other party? Never mind. It is not that important.
Exactly what the whole country seems to be thinking about
"that other party" AKA the Tories AKA the Conservatives.
They're electing a new leader at the moment, it's down to
two people. If one wins they'll be electorially irrelevent,
if the other wins their European split will probably
rip the party apart. As we said Sat night, the Conservative
party is over, all the booze has run out, the pretty girls
have all gone home with someone already and the sun's
comming up, the hangover has already started and staying
around now just means you have to help with the clean-up.
Be interesting if the Liberal's actually do better than
the Conservatives at the next election. It looks posible
for the first time in my lifetime, certainly. Probably
close to a hundred years if my sense of history has
any credibility (it doesn't).
> Extacy and other stuff like that is not popular here. At least I don't
> see it. Maybe the youngster are here using drugs more than I know.
> Traditionally stereotype man here is drinking much 'kossu' it is
> officially Koskenkorva, finnish vodka.
Could well be true, I'm told that the Brits top the European
tables on drug abuse and boozing too. I doubt this is really
a good thing, but we like to pretend it is occasionally.
> I have once been in London. It was almost ten years ago. So I don't know
> about the places there. Some of my friends have taken this goth thing a
> bit seriously. Only black clothes and fanny rings (not traditional rings
> don't know what they are called).
Yeah, some people can take anything seriously. It's not easy
to do when everyone's walking around in studded leather and
straps, some wearing fairy wings or whatever. Someone ought
to let them know that Fancy Dress is supposed to be Fun!
> Turk is trying to talk me into TI alliance where he could
> attack you and I should attack France. Hah! No way.
He said that he was asking you to go west, though of
course he didn't mention him going North.
> I know that. Sometimes it is called a stab and sometimes a good
> tactics :-)
Heh, depending on who it's done to basically.
> If you can spare a thought every now and then please let me know
> if there's some typical errors I made.
I'll try and remember to let you know if you make any
glaring errors but my own English is far from perfect
so half the time I'm never quite sure who's right.
Anyway, Austria wrote to me today checking that I was
still on for the bounce in Gal (which I confirmed) and
it seems that he hasn't been talking to Turkey much
either which has to be good for us.
Adam............
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:44 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
Thanks for note. I understand the pressures of other games and real life
for that matter. I just wanted to re-connect before the first set of moves.
As I said a while ago, there's not much we can do together right off, but we
should probably stay in touch for both of our sakes. The press I see if
mostly from EF with some R and a touch of I (though I'm having a hard time
getting a good read on Italy's style). As you pointed out, Keith has been
quite silent, but I think that's his style of play. That just leaves the
two of us. So far, so good.
Regarding the triple, I'm one of those "get it done and get it done fast"
type of players. Sometimes that leaves me out in the cold, but I don't
think this will be one of those times. Both Brent and Rod seem to be easy
enough to work with. How about you and the east?
Write if you'd like. I'll be here...waiting for the results to come in.
- Steve
From - Mon Sep 10 18:47:50 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
I just wanted to let you know that if you would like to move West, then
that is fine with me. I am only concerned about the immediate
possibility of Italy attack Austria (so much so that I've considered
holding Trieste in place).
If you move west you will want to make sure that Russia and Turkey are
not allied. If you think that Russia will join with me to take out
Turkey, then that is great. We might need the assistance of one of your
fleets against Turkey, but this might not be necessary for some years,
and perhaps not at all.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 10 20:10:53 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Austria in 'gutsy':
Yes, I have been talking to Italy about getting him to open West, and it
seems to have been reltively successful. He may be silent just because his
moving West would put him at a real disadvantage should you move against
him. It may also be because he's just the most silent player in general. I
can't make any guarantees which way he'll go, but my hopes are riding on a
Westward opening!
Brent
From - Mon Sep 10 20:10:54 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
Good to hear from you again, and very glad that I don't have to worry
about an army moving to StP. As for the Scandanavian plans, I agree that
its hard to do much at this point. But I still think the demilitarization
is the best plan, and I'd be willing to move my fleet to Norwegian instead
of North if that was what it took to get Germany on board. We'll have to
see how things go. I wish you the best of luck in dealing with Austria and
Turkey!
Brent
From - Mon Sep 10 20:10:56 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
Well, right now, you are one of the most important people for me to talk
to. If you open towards the West, I'm going to be in pretty good shape I
think. If not, I'm going to have to get lucky. No word from Turkey yet on
the joint proposal though, so we'll have to see. I understand that if we
can't get him on board that puts you in a bit of an awkward position. All
we can do at the moment is sit back and hope for the best!
Brent
From - Sat Sep 15 23:20:27 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
Now that we have a perfect reasoning to be allies, could you tell me your
opinion about easten alliances?
> As long as you don't get the centers from me. ;-)
Daddy, Rod is not giving his centers to me!
> > So are you saying that it makes no
> > difference to you if we bounce there or not?
>
> I don't think I'll need to order Mar-Bur, so the army is available to
> bounce in Pie. We might as well do it, so I'll go ahead and order
> Mar-Pie unless I hear differently from you. Please confirm.
Ok, let's forget the bounce. Please confirm that you are not moving to
Pie. If I hear nothing I'll more accordingly.
Raine
From - Sat Sep 15 23:20:29 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
When I talked about the talkativeness (Is that a correct word?) I compared
you and Turkey to other players. It is a shame if I am also that silent, I
need to try harder.
> I used to be an astronomy. I got my first degree in physics, then I went
> to graduate school for astronomy. I didn't like the program I was in, I
> I decided to leave after I passed my exams and got a Masters degree. I
> was doing computational models of extragalactic radio sources.
Really? What a coincidense. I am studying planetary rings. Computational
models, of course. Was it in Rochester where you studied astronomy?
> Yes, it is a mixture of psychology and medicine.
Diplomacy is an endless field to study psychology ;-)
> That is good to hear. Do you know what you're going to do?
Not really, I am most probably doing a basic moves to end up convoying to
Tunis.
> What, I have not communicated enough? I've written to you at least as
> many times as you've written to me.
Then I am silent myself. I am just comparing you to the others. Also AI
has a special relations due to Ven,Tri that should mean more talks between
us. I don't blame you or anything, I am most probably the reason this
time.
> Nothing from France, nothing from Turkey in quite a long time, and
> nothing lately from Russia. Hmm... perhaps this is some cause for concern.
??? Really? Could you define lately? I mean France and Russia are very
talkative. I find it strange that they would ignore you.
Italy
From - Sat Sep 15 23:20:30 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Austria,
I wrote the previous letter hours ago. I just managed to send it.
> I just wanted to let you know that if you would like to move West, then
> that is fine with me. I am only concerned about the immediate
> possibility of Italy attack Austria (so much so that I've considered
> holding Trieste in place).
That must have been my opening mail to you that gives you creeps somehow.
I am not even considering to move Ven-Tyr,Rom-Ven. I feel very sad that I
haven't been able to build up AI relations like I would like them to be
i.e. way better than any other relations.
My only hope is that you are fooling me and you still head Tri-Alb.
I would fully understand that. Also I would be happy to see you moving
that way. Holding in Trieste is a waste of time. Well if it helps I just
want you to know that I am not going to be offended if you move Tri-Alb
even if you would say that you are holding for sure.
I hope my moves can build up trust between us. I am so sorry that I have
failed in diploming with you (I see it as a failure if you decide to hold
in Tri).
> If you move west you will want to make sure that Russia and Turkey are
> not allied. If you think that Russia will join with me to take out
> Turkey, then that is great. We might need the assistance of one of your
> fleets against Turkey, but this might not be necessary for some years,
> and perhaps not at all.
I would love to join you in attack against Turkey. Even if they are not
allied I would love to see AI working together.
Italy
From - Sat Sep 15 23:20:33 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
How is it going, in west I mean?
> Well, right now, you are one of the most important people for me to talk
> to. If you open towards the West, I'm going to be in pretty good shape I
> think. If not, I'm going to have to get lucky.
Do you really think it is that important for me to move to west? You have
to get lucky otherwise. So you think there is a strong FG alliance? That
is bad indeed. I would prefer strong E over strong F.
> No word from Turkey yet on
> the joint proposal though, so we'll have to see. I understand that if we
> can't get him on board that puts you in a bit of an awkward position. All
> we can do at the moment is sit back and hope for the best!
It only tells us that Turkey has something better to do than to talk about
EIT.
Raine
From - Sat Sep 15 23:20:37 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
> Thanks for note. I understand the pressures of other games and real life
> for that matter. I just wanted to re-connect before the first set of
moves.
No problem. I (almost) always respond to press, (see, I'm doing it
again 8-),
but sending follow-up letters to more distant friends sometimes gets
overwhelmed
by "stuff".
> Regarding the triple, I'm one of those "get it done and get it done fast"
> type of players. Sometimes that leaves me out in the cold, but I don't
> think this will be one of those times. Both Brent and Rod seem to be easy
> enough to work with. How about you and the east?
Are you suggesting there might be a Western Triple, or just refering to
the
western Powers as "the triple"? ;^} As Turkey, I'd welcome a Western
Triple,
but I don't know that I can reccommend it to you as Germany. (Though I was
the 12-Center Germany in a 12-11-11 WT 3-way Draw in the Vermont Group
Full Press Tournament... (More a fluke of the scoring system than a
testimony
to my skill, though.)
If the spirit of our midgame cooperation, if you're truly undecided on
an
ally, I'd suggest going with Brent. Rod's too good, with too much
experience,
to be allowed a free-ride as France, in my opinion. Also, if you can
stretch
Brent out attacking France, and harrassing Adam in northern Russia, it would
make it easier for me to expand toward those corners, and it might leave
Brent
exposed for a stab. Just a thought.
In the East, I'm exchanging a fair amount of Press with Adam, but we
can't
agree on how to handle the Black Sea problem, so we'll probably bounce.
Keith and Raine are cordial but cautious, and I'm remembering why I don't
like
playing Turkey. 8-) (It's difficult for Turkey to ally with Italy or
Austria, so
that leaves Russia as the "natural" choice, but THAT invokes cries of
"JUGGERNAUT!", and a 5 on 2 situation.)
Eric the Turk.
From - Sat Sep 15 23:20:50 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
I must admit that I am dissappointed to see no further discussions about
Brent's TEI proposal. We do not have to forget that plan as it is still
possible. We just need to figure out how are we going to handle the
RT/Lepanto fears.
BTW, Italy most common opening is Ven-Tyr,Rom-Ven,Nap-Ion. You can check
that from the stats.
> Of course, conversely, the Lepanto is perhaps
> Italy's most common opening, and even if I open
> Ank-Con, and Build F Smy, I won't be able to take
> Ion before 1903, so for me to commit to an IT without
> an agreement for a DMZ of Ion is a bigger risk for
> me, than agreeing to the DMZ is for you. Nap-Ion,
> Ven-Pie, Rom-Ven, followed by Ion-Tun would work,
> though.
I don't say that demilitarized Ion is out of question. It can be handled
by Ion-Tun. But the question I'd like to ask is: can we make TI work with
my fleet in Ion? If you rule that out then you don't give me into hard
situation 'cause I have only one way to go.
> Ummm, no. An Italian Fleet in Greece is almost
> as threatening as one in Ion is.
How about an army?
> >The best start for TI is if you can manage to move to Black Sea.
>
> Agreed, but that's one of those things you can
> never be sure of until the moves process.
Yes, that is true. I am hope that your diploming skills correlate with
your JDPR :-)
Have you got any idea if it would be possible to arrange AT against R and
I heading west? That would be a fine solution if we just can arrange the
Ionian question. You must have talked to Keith about AT against R :-)
Raine
enpress
From - Sat Sep 15 23:20:58 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Wednesday was a special day for you, right? Was it that it were not
working then? Does it mean that you are more on-line or less.
> Ah, Perry would be the name of it if it's made from pears
> over here. It's not nearly so popular as cider is though.
There ain't much difference in pear and apple cider if they come from same
brewery, in here.
> I find it slightly depressing that all the carbonated
> filtered almost tasteless ciders are the ones you can
> get most easily but the flat, cloudy tasty and strong
> ones you have to drive to a farm to buy from some
> amateur brewery in the West Country. Or at the occasional
> beer festival.
I am the amateur in this, so I think these finnish ciders are nothing
special. At least you don't have to make big effort to get it.
> Could well be true, I'm told that the Brits top the European
> tables on drug abuse and boozing too. I doubt this is really
> a good thing, but we like to pretend it is occasionally.
I was told that if we compare the consumpsion of pure alcohol per one
person (i.e. there is a difference if one drink wine or vodka) then the
Finns are on top of the list amongst Europeans. I heard this some years
ago so the stats may have changed.
> to do when everyone's walking around in studded leather and
> straps, some wearing fairy wings or whatever. Someone ought
> to let them know that Fancy Dress is supposed to be Fun!
Also some chicks look very good with their costumes ;-) but most are
totally horrible.
> Anyway, Austria wrote to me today checking that I was
> still on for the bounce in Gal (which I confirmed) and
> it seems that he hasn't been talking to Turkey much
> either which has to be good for us.
For some reason Austria is uncertain of my goodwill. I think he really
wants that bounce in Gal. Someone must have been telling that Italy is
coming to get you via Ven-Tyr,Rom-Ven. I start to believe that you were
correct when you talked that maybe press ain't Austria's best weapon.
I would love to know if Austria and Turkey are as silent to others than
they are to me.
Raine
Ps. Could you tell me if Steve (Germany) has been talking much? I started
to wonder if Austria has asked Mun-Tyr. No, that would be overreaction but
Austria seems to be a little weird.
From - Sat Sep 15 23:21:01 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
I am just checking if you got my mail. I sent it a while ago.
I hope everything is ok.
Raine
From - Sat Sep 15 23:21:07 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> > I used to be an astronomy. I got my first degree in physics, then I went
> > to graduate school for astronomy. I didn't like the program I was in, I
> > I decided to leave after I passed my exams and got a Masters degree. I
> > was doing computational models of extragalactic radio sources.
>
> Really? What a coincidense. I am studying planetary rings. Computational
> models, of course. Was it in Rochester where you studied astronomy?
No, I was in California, and then Boston.
> > Yes, it is a mixture of psychology and medicine.
>
> Diplomacy is an endless field to study psychology ;-)
I suppose. Everyone tries to be deceptive. It's probably about my own
psychology more than anyone else's. I tend to react rather paranoid.
I'd rather do that than have someone make a fool out of me.
> Not really, I am most probably doing a basic moves to end up convoying to
> Tunis.
What do you mean basic moves? I am wondering what you will do with
Venice. I don't mind your moving to Tyrolia as long as you don't move
Rom-Ven. Pie is okay too. I just like to have an idea what my neighbors
are doing. (You know I'm ordering Vie-Gal, right?)
> > Nothing from France, nothing from Turkey in quite a long time, and
> > nothing lately from Russia. Hmm... perhaps this is some cause for concern.
>
> ??? Really? Could you define lately? I mean France and Russia are very
> talkative. I find it strange that they would ignore you.
They respond when I ask them things. France has not communicated in a
long time. Russia responded to a note of mine recently.
What are they saying to you? I can imagine that France doesn't want you
to attack him. What about Russia? Has he suggested that you attack me?
Or have you primarily been discussing Turkey?
Turkey has not suggested to me that we take Rumania, so I am supposing
that he believes he has a good relationship with Russia. Russia at least
pretends that he is intersted in attacking Turkey.
Austria
From - Sat Sep 15 23:21:15 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
OK. No bounce. I am NOT moving to Pie.
Rod
From - Sat Sep 15 23:21:17 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> Now that we have a perfect reasoning to be allies, could you tell me
> your opinion about easten alliances?
Well, I'm not exactly an expert at playing Italy. :-) I think it's
difficult to attack Austria early and have it benefit you more than
RT, but you'll probably want his centers eventually. Long-term
cooperation with T is difficult, because he'll eventually want to
move into the Med. An alliance with Russia can work well, but I think
it's prudent for IR to attack T first then take out Austria.
Well, that's my theory on eastern alliances. Of course, *anything*
can happen. :-)
BTW, we're getting close to the deadline, so let's make our final
decision that Par is a DMZ.
Rod
From - Sat Sep 15 23:21:19 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Nice to be on-line at the same time. It gives to opportunity to talk more.
> What do you mean basic moves? I am wondering what you will do with
> Venice. I don't mind your moving to Tyrolia as long as you don't move
> Rom-Ven. Pie is okay too. I just like to have an idea what my neighbors
> are doing. (You know I'm ordering Vie-Gal, right?)
Ok, Rom-Apu. Your turn :-) No, you don't have to tell me your moves. I can
live without knowing them if I have the feeling that you trust me. As I
said earlier I would like to see Tri-Alb.
> What are they saying to you? I can imagine that France doesn't want you
> to attack him. What about Russia? Has he suggested that you attack me?
> Or have you primarily been discussing Turkey?
Well I have talked with France about Pie of course. France wants me to
concentrate east naturally. Now that you mention it I find it weird that
Russia has _not_ asked me to attack you. He has talked about attacking
Turkey continuously. He is hoping that we (AI) will make some sort of
Lepanto. I must have been at sleep, 'cause now that you mentioned it
really gives me hope that Russia is serious about attacking Turkey. Other
wise I have asked about boozing from Russia :-) No I am not even near
bordeline alcoholic but I enjoy to take single malt whisky occasionally.
> Turkey has not suggested to me that we take Rumania, so I am supposing
> that he believes he has a good relationship with Russia. Russia at least
> pretends that he is intersted in attacking Turkey.
Russia is talking much to me. Mainly non diplomatic stuff but when we talk
about diplomacy it is against Turkey. So far I got the wait and see
attitude to see if Russia is serious but now I have some more hope.
Maybe Russia is really thinking that highest JDPR means equals 1st target.
Has Russia tried to talk you into attacking me?
How about Germany? You told that you have talked enough and G will leave
you alone. I tried to start discussion with him about AIG but he has been
silent. How do you feel about DMZ? I mean some people think DMZ is for
losers 'cause it restricts your own capabilities but some people are
asking them immediately.
Italy
Ps. I haven't talked about Lepanto, yet. I don't rule it out. I am ready
for it for sure. I need your fleet at Greece then. But maybe it is better
to talk about Lepanto after the 1st moves. Somehow it has been like a
default for me, I mean Lepanto.
From - Sat Sep 15 23:21:22 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I got it, no moves to Pie. I like it when people give responce. I mean,
in high rated game like gutsy it is not common that people 'forget' to
answer.
Raine
Ps. It would have been difficult decision for me if you had not answered.
Maybe I would have resigned from our R-alliance :-)
From - Sat Sep 15 23:21:27 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> I got it, no moves to Pie. I like it when people give responce.
> Ps. It would have been difficult decision for me if you had not answered.
I agree. It's very nice to get quick confirmation, so that we
know that we both have made the same decision. :-)
Rod
From - Sat Sep 15 23:21:29 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
Thanks. Now I am an expert in east.
> BTW, we're getting close to the deadline, so let's make our final
> decision that Par is a DMZ.
Well, I can agree _only_ if you'll make a broadcast and say that you will
protect Italian people from Yorkshire pudding :-)
Raine
From - Sat Sep 15 23:21:30 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
> Well, I can agree _only_ if you'll make a broadcast and say
> that you will protect Italian people from Yorkshire pudding :-)
No problem! But is it OK if I wait until after the Spring moves
process to make that broadcast? ;-)
Rod
From - Sat Sep 15 23:21:31 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
How dare you!
> No problem! But is it OK if I wait until after the Spring moves
> process to make that broadcast? ;-)
Then it would be too late. It is now or never. I warn you, Par is under
danger if you start to play games with me ;-)
Raine
Ps. Haven't you heard about the famous Italian opening called 'Flying
Italian' where Italy convoys Rom-Par and France cannot recover without
help from Russia??? :-)
From - Sat Sep 15 23:21:33 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> Ps. Haven't you heard about the famous Italian opening called 'Flying
> Italian' where Italy convoys Rom-Par and France cannot recover without
> help from Russia??? :-)
Rom-Par is fine - as long as you don't move to Pie.
;-)
Rod
From - Sat Sep 15 23:21:48 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Ok, Rom-Apu. Your turn :-) No, you don't have to tell me your moves. I can
> live without knowing them if I have the feeling that you trust me. As I
> said earlier I would like to see Tri-Alb.
We shall see. That is the only move I'm debating at the moment. My
other two moves are obvious (Vie-Gal, Bud-Ser).
> Has Russia tried to talk you into attacking me?
No, that would be silly. Austria does not start wars with Italy. It
only works the other way around.
> How about Germany? You told that you have talked enough and G will leave
> you alone. I tried to start discussion with him about AIG but he has been
> silent. How do you feel about DMZ? I mean some people think DMZ is for
> losers 'cause it restricts your own capabilities but some people are
> asking them immediately.
Germany and I have not exchanged too many messages, nor did we discuss
specific off-limits areas. Of course attacking Germany is something that
I will not do, and he would have to be crazy to attack me any time soon,
either.
> Ps. I haven't talked about Lepanto, yet. I don't rule it out. I am ready
> for it for sure. I need your fleet at Greece then. But maybe it is better
> to talk about Lepanto after the 1st moves. Somehow it has been like a
> default for me, I mean Lepanto.
We can talk about it if you like. It is often more dangerous for Italy
than for Austria. You have to commit your forces far into the East, and
hope that France does not attack you. You have to invest quite a few
units for a risky gain. If it works out, though, you get most of Turkey
and can become quite powerful (hopefully not at the expense of Austria).
Austria
From - Sat Sep 15 23:21:49 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
Brent
> Good to hear from you again, and very glad that I don't have to worry
> about an army moving to StP.
There was never any chance of that. Look out for Germany and France
though.
> As for the Scandanavian plans, I agree that
> its hard to do much at this point. But I still think the demilitarization
> is the best plan, and I'd be willing to move my fleet to Norwegian instead
> of North if that was what it took to get Germany on board.
Really? I think the only time I've seen Nth empty during a game
is when England has already been driven out. Or when France and
Germany are both eliminated. I like the DMZ idea, but I'm not
convinced it's practical. Still, we're in no rush to sort it
out.
> We'll have to
> see how things go. I wish you the best of luck in dealing with
> Austria and Turkey.
Thanks, I think I'll be okay but I'm a little worried since Italy
has reported that Turkey wanted him to go into France so as
to leave me unprotected when he went north (presumably with
Austria's help). I may be in trouble if that happens.
Still, the deadline could be any second now for all I know,
I'm not sure what time zone the Judge is in.
Adam..........
From - Sat Sep 15 23:21:52 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
> Wednesday was a special day for you, right? Was it that it were not
> working then? Does it mean that you are more on-line or less.
Wednesday is my day off, in general. I might have to come in
this Wednesday (tommorow) though and have some other day off
since there's new machines going live and whatnot. I'm online
more or less all day whether I'm at work or not basically,
the only time I don't check my email every hour or so at least
is while I'm asleep or out having fun.
> I was told that if we compare the consumpsion of pure alcohol per one
> person (i.e. there is a difference if one drink wine or vodka) then the
> Finns are on top of the list amongst Europeans. I heard this some years
> ago so the stats may have changed.
Quite possible to have both, it was just Teen drinking I was
talking about.
> For some reason Austria is uncertain of my goodwill. I think he really
> wants that bounce in Gal. Someone must have been telling that Italy is
> coming to get you via Ven-Tyr,Rom-Ven. I start to believe that you were
> correct when you talked that maybe press ain't Austria's best weapon.
Yeah, the longest press I'm managed to get from him was about
three lines long. Still, presumably that means he can't talk
very well with Turkey either which is good.
> I would love to know if Austria and Turkey are as silent to others than
> they are to me.
They don't talk to me a great deal, about three notes from Turkey
and two from Austria I think (without bothering to go recount)
and the westerners haven't really mentioned talking to them either.
> Ps. Could you tell me if Steve (Germany) has been talking much? I started
> to wonder if Austria has asked Mun-Tyr. No, that would be overreaction but
> Austria seems to be a little weird.
Steve's written a fair amount, mostly we talked about Swe and Pru/Sil
and came to a nice agreement there. I don't think he's likely to
move Mun to Tyr, I get the impression he can choose an ally from
England or France and gang up on the other of them. I don't think
England and France work together very well so a tripple isn't
very likely at all.
Adam...........
From - Sat Sep 15 23:21:54 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Diplomatic channels have been understandably silent the last few days. I
would like to get in touch with you though, as I will be gone most of the
weekend. What are your thoughts on my proposed IET alliance? I realize
that I took things a bit above what you had been talking about, so I would
understand if you aren't interested in that level of cooperation. Still, I
think it would be very worthwhile for all 3 of us. Even if you aren't
interested in a 3-way alliance, I think it would be helpful for both of us
to work closely together in finding the truth in the statements made by our
fellow leaders. I look forward to hearing from you.
Brent
From - Sat Sep 15 23:21:59 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England and Italy in 'gutsy':
>Message from England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>What are your thoughts on my proposed IET alliance? I think it would be
>very worthwhile for all 3 of us.
I agree. I have become more fond of allying
with my neighbor's neighbor recently, since it
reduces the likelihood of being stabbed, and I
favor working with an ally for extended periods,
rather than stabbing them at the first opportunity.
EIT presents an excellent opportunity for us since
it allows us to attack the two Powers most likely
to solo (FR) before they have an opportunity to
establish their power base, and does not look like
an obvious alliance to anyone else.
The problems with this alliance are, in my mind,
minor, but not insignificant. We would each end up
in a two-front war, E vs. FR, I vs. AF, and T vs. AR,
but in each case we would have a primary target, and
would force our targets to defend on two fronts.
The other problem is that stab-potential inherent
in the IT side of the triple. I feel this can be
minimized by my not having more than one or two
fleets, and Italy agreeing to DMZ Ion. The Ionian
DMZ must, I think, be established with either a
S1901 move of Nap-TyS, which would help the French
Campaign, or a F1901 move of Ion-Tun. This is
necessary because without the DMZ, Italy could move
Ion-EMed, Nap-Ion in the Spring, and then TyS-Ion,
EMed S Ion-Aeg in the Fall, and I would be unable
to defend my Home Centers from the Italian attack.
Eric the Turk.
From - Sat Sep 15 23:22:00 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
>can we make TI work with my fleet in Ion?
In the long-term, I don't think so. The stab
potential it gives you against me is just too high
if I don't build Fleets, and if I build Fleets,
eventually they will have to head West.
>If you rule that out then you don't give me into hard
>situation 'cause I have only one way to go.
(Ummm, "If you rule that out, then you put me into a
hard situation, because I only have one way to go.")
Well, your Armies can attack Austria or France,
or both.
> > Ummm, no. An Italian Fleet in Greece is almost
> > as threatening as one in Ion is.
>
>How about an army?
I see you taking Tun, Tri, Mar, Spa, and probably
Par, Por, Vie, and Mun, while I take Bul, Gre, Ser,
Bud, Rum, Sev, War and Mos. If you have Armies in
Gre and Tri, you might start thinking about Ser and
Bud.
>Have you got any idea if it would be possible to arrange AT against R and I
>heading west?
(Umm, "AT against R, while I head west?")
>You must have talked to Keith about AT against R :-)
Yes, but AT is even harder to arrange than IT,
and requires that I build only Fleets. The question
of how we avoid AR, and whom I attack first and
hardest is troubling. I think if Brent and Steve
pressure Adam in the north, I might be better off
using Adam to cripple Keith to start with.
Eric the Turk.
From - Sat Sep 15 23:22:04 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy and Turkey in 'gutsy':
Good to hear from you again Eric. Alright then, we all agree that the
3-way sounds like a good idea in general. Now comes the hard part of
working out the specifics. Eric makes a good point about the threat of a
fleet in the Ionian. However, the threat of fleet builds in Con and Smy
could pose the same kind of 1 year "instant threat", so I have a feeling
that Raine will be reluctant to cede that point easily. There is another
factor, and that is the nature of a "stab" in a 3 way alliance. I
personally think that this alliance is my best shot in this game, and would
consider any sabotage of it to greatly hinder my chances, and thus be
equivalent to an attack on me. Unfortunately, because of my position, this
factor really only works in one direction. While I could quite easily be in
a position to harass Raine should he choose to stab, I couldn't do much to
Eric unless he stabbed after I had made my way into Russia. Thus, I think
Eric is at a bit of an advantage in that regard.
Perhaps we can come to some sort of agreement that will address both of
your fears. What if Italy were only allowed to have a fleet in the Ionian
on Fall turns? This would allow him to protect himself from the possibility
of Turkish builds, while also severely limiting his stab options. Such an
attack as Eric described could only occur in the Spring, giving he and I
time to react by arranging Turkish builds to counter the movement, and
denying Italian builds which would further power the attack. This is merely
an idea, and I'm sure Raine will have his own reactions and or suggestions.
Feel free to let me know by joint mail, or in private if you prefer, about
ways that I can help to mediate this agreement so that all 3 of us can feel
good about it.
Brent
From - Sat Sep 15 23:22:07 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England and Italy in 'gutsy':
> Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy and Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> Eric makes a good point about the threat of a fleet in the Ionian.
> However, the threat of fleet builds in Con and Smy could pose
> the same kind of 1 year "instant threat",
Not really. I would expect that Raine will have Fleets in TyS
and WMed, (and perhaps others), and if I build two Fleets, he
moves TyS-Ion, WMed-TyS as I move to Aeg and EMed, and
then TyS S Ion keeps me from taking Ion.
> What if Italy were only allowed to have a fleet in the Ionian
> on Fall turns?
Ummm, no. If Raine has a Fleet in Ion in the Fall, I'd be forced
to build a Fleet to defend against Ion-EMed, TyS-Ion in the Spring.
I'm willing to accept Raine not DMZing Ion until Austria disbands
his Fleet, if we attack Austria right away, but to restrict my builds
and push north into Russia, I need the Ion DMZ.
Eric the (stubborn 8-) Turk.
From - Sat Sep 15 23:22:20 2001
Broadcast message from brent at epicsystems.com as England in 'gutsy':
I will be gone until Sunday night, if there are still matters that
need to be discussed before the turn processes I will address them as
soon as I get back.
Brent
From - Sun Sep 16 08:46:44 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
No broadcast from France, yet...
> Rom-Par is fine - as long as you don't move to Pie.
>
> ;-)
>
> Rod
No broadcast is fine - as long as you don't move to Pie. ;-)
Seriously: It has been a tough week and I haven't been active in gutsy.
To make summary of our talks, we have agreed to keep Pie empty (not via
bounce) and Med is not for French fleet(s) and French fleet will not be
build in Mar. Also I am not going to act in west at all.
I would like to add one (important :-) thing: you are not allowed to
convoy army into Naf. Would you agree this?
Raine
From - Sun Sep 16 08:46:45 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
It has been a tough week. I hope there won't be any revenge attacks before
they have some evidence.
> Still, presumably that means he can't talk very well with
> Turkey either which is good.
I hope that is correct.
> They don't talk to me a great deal, about three notes from Turkey
> and two from Austria I think (without bothering to go recount)
> and the westerners haven't really mentioned talking to them either.
In general I would not make a decision to ally someone just 'cause he
talks a lot but in gutsy I am happy Russia is the talkative one and I am
Italy.
> Steve's written a fair amount, mostly we talked about Swe and Pru/Sil
> and came to a nice agreement there. I don't think he's likely to
> move Mun to Tyr, I get the impression he can choose an ally from
> England or France and gang up on the other of them. I don't think
> England and France work together very well so a tripple isn't
> very likely at all.
If Steve can choose his ally then maybe it would be good for us (RI) if
there would be GE instead of GF. GE forces would be heading south and only
one unit is send to Scandinavia. This is only speculation but this is how
I see it.
It has been silent after the terroist acts. Do you have any news about
AT?
Raine
From - Sun Sep 16 08:46:47 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Greetings,
It has been a tough week in many ways. I hope you are ok.
> We shall see. That is the only move I'm debating at the moment. My
> other two moves are obvious (Vie-Gal, Bud-Ser).
Like I said I won't move Rom-Ven,Ven-Tyr/Tri. That should courage you to
move to Albania.
> No, that would be silly. Austria does not start wars with Italy. It
> only works the other way around.
That is correct. I am just trying to figure out how serious Russia is.
> Germany and I have not exchanged too many messages, nor did we discuss
> specific off-limits areas. Of course attacking Germany is something that
> I will not do, and he would have to be crazy to attack me any time soon,
> either.
You could have asked for Anchluss(sp?) where Germany would move to Tyr to
keep the peace between AI. There is no need for that but I have somehow
made you suspicious about my goodwill. I hope you believe me after the 1st
moves.
> > Ps. I haven't talked about Lepanto, yet. I don't rule it out. I am ready
> > for it for sure. I need your fleet at Greece then. But maybe it is better
> > to talk about Lepanto after the 1st moves. Somehow it has been like a
> > default for me, I mean Lepanto.
>
> We can talk about it if you like. It is often more dangerous for Italy
> than for Austria. You have to commit your forces far into the East, and
> hope that France does not attack you. You have to invest quite a few
> units for a risky gain. If it works out, though, you get most of Turkey
> and can become quite powerful (hopefully not at the expense of Austria).
I am ready to take the risk if I believe it is worth it. It means that you
should be working with me 100%. I would love to see that Russia is
serious and we (AIR) could attack Turkey. You should be the one who gets
the 1st center from Turkey, Bulgaria. This is the scenario that would be
1st on my list if west is resolving quickly. We need to be fast in the
east too.
Yours,
Italy
From - Sun Sep 16 08:46:49 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
I hope you are ok. I am sorry about what happend in US.
Thanks for the corrections to my English. I hope I'm not that bad in
writing usually. I must have been in a hurry when I wrote to you. For some
reason the spell checker ain't working (and I am too lousy to find out
why).
> Well, your Armies can attack Austria or France,
> or both.
Are you serious? I would attack Austria, where would my fleet be? C'mon.
Attacking France is more probable when my fleet is prohibited to go to
Ionian. I need to be 100% sure that you are attacking Russia in order to
move nap-tys,ven-pie. I doubt you could give me that proof. What does this
mean? It means my attack to France is delayed even move. It would be slow
to attack France anyway. I am not in a hurry. I have no problem with slow
start (it is default when playing Italy).
> >Have you got any idea if it would be possible to arrange AT against R and I
> >heading west?
>
> (Umm, "AT against R, while I head west?")
Let me put it this way: Could you give me example how do arrange AT
against R while I head west? Then I would love to if you think it is
probable or not to do it.
> Yes, but AT is even harder to arrange than IT,
I disagree! AT is much easier to arrange. Promise Rum,Sev to A and ask for
Gre and Bul to be yours (with fleets in there). I have done it (I hope I
am better Italy than I had to face in that game while I was Turkey).
> and requires that I build only Fleets. The question
> of how we avoid AR, and whom I attack first and
How probable is AR?
Raine
From - Sun Sep 16 08:46:50 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey and England in
'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
Ionian is the problem. How to solve it? Eric, how would you move if Italy
will move Nar-Tys,Ven-Pie and Rom-Tus? I am not saying that I'll move that
way, also I am not saying that I do not move like that.
After the 1st move we can tell much more. Did Eric got to Black Sea
(Did he even try ;-) ? That is one of the most important questions to
me. Also if Eric moves Ank-Bla and Smy-Arm it is important to see how
Russia moves. In case Turkey does not need to build the 2nd fleet I am
more willing to leave Ionian DMZ.
To build up trust, could you Eric tell us what is your relationship to
Austria and to Russia. I know these are difficult questions but I need to
know if you are really working on TEI. Afterall Italy is more vulnerable
than Turkey if TEI falls apart.
Raine
From - Sun Sep 16 21:34:10 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> No broadcast is fine - as long as you don't move to Pie. ;-)
Agreed. :-)
> To make summary of our talks, we have agreed to keep Pie empty (not via
> bounce) and Med is not for French fleet(s) and French fleet will not be
> build in Mar. Also I am not going to act in west at all.
I concur.
> I would like to add one (important :-) thing: you are not allowed to
> convoy army into Naf. Would you agree this?
Absolutely. I will move no unit to NAf.
Rod
From - Sun Sep 16 21:34:12 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> It has been a tough week in many ways. I hope you are ok.
Yes, thanks for asking.
> That is correct. I am just trying to figure out how serious Russia is.
I don't know. I guess we will see.
> I am ready to take the risk if I believe it is worth it. It means that you
> should be working with me 100%. I would love to see that Russia is
> serious and we (AIR) could attack Turkey. You should be the one who gets
> the 1st center from Turkey, Bulgaria. This is the scenario that would be
> 1st on my list if west is resolving quickly. We need to be fast in the
> east too.
I am working with you 100%, and that will likely continue to be the case
as long as you're willing. You are far down on the list of people I'd
like to eventually attack.
Austria
From - Sun Sep 16 21:34:13 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
How are things going? What sense are you getting from Turkey? Is he
giving any indications of his intentions? Italy seems willing to move
against Turkey, but confidentially I am somewhat concerned that he will
attack me.
Austria
From - Sun Sep 16 21:34:15 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> In general I would not make a decision to ally someone just 'cause he
> talks a lot but in gutsy I am happy Russia is the talkative one and I am
> Italy.
Same here, though I would make a decision not to side with
someone because they didn't write almost at all.
> If Steve can choose his ally then maybe it would be good for us (RI) if
> there would be GE instead of GF. GE forces would be heading south and only
> one unit is send to Scandinavia. This is only speculation but this is how
> I see it.
Probably, though GE tends to bias against Germany who finds
himself surrounded after France is gone, I'm not sure I'd
like to see England that strong. Still, I also doubt that
he'd take much notice of anything we had to say on the matter.
> It has been silent after the terroist acts. Do you have any news about
> AT?
Very little communication indeed, nothing from TA again.
I guess we'll see if anyone is late.
(Sorry if this is short and rushed, I wanted to reply
before the deadline but I'm really busy this weekend)
Adam......
From - Sun Sep 16 21:34:17 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> How are things going?
Okay I think, not much talking this week, I guess that's
understandable. I've decided to play fairly safe this
spring anyway so there's not much that remained to be
said anyway.
> What sense are you getting from Turkey?
> Is he giving any indications of his intentions?
I think he's trying to decide whether to join up with
you or I. The last I heard from him he was asking if
we could avoid the bounce in Bla but I told him I
prefered that we did bounce, if A Mos takes Rum then
F Sev is fairly useless for anything else anyway.
> Italy seems willing to move against Turkey, but
> confidentially I am somewhat concerned that he will
> attack me.
I get the impression that he would sooner go after
Turkey than you but that he's not sure he's heard
from you enough to trust you over Turkey. I think
he'll also play fairly safe this spring and see
how things shake out next year. I'm pretty well
certain that he hasn't really decided what to go
after once Tun has gone. If you're worried, have you
offered him Gre?
Adam......
From - Sun Sep 16 21:34:18 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Italy makes me nervous for some reason, but rest assured that I've done
everything possible to convince him not to attack me.
Austria
From - Sun Sep 16 21:34:20 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hello, how is it going? What have you been hearing from Russia and
Italy? Anything that would indicate their intentions? Both suggest
neutral openings to me. I am always afraid that everyone usually attacks
someone right away, and if I'm not hearing about it, then that person is
probably me.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:05 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Wow, quite a bit has happened since I last talked to you. Nothing
affecting this game though. Diplomatic channels have been basicaly closed
since Tuesday. Hopefully things will take off again once the turn finally
processes. Anyways, just wanted to confirm with you that nothing has
changed and that my orders are in as planned. Anything new with you?
Brent
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:04 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
Anything going on in your neck of the woods? I haven't received much of
anything since the events on Tuesday, hopefully things will pick up again
once the turn processes. I do have one piece of news. Earlier on we were
talking about the possibility of Russia opening Mos-StP. He has now assured
me that that is not going to happen. I would guess that Moscow will be
going to Ukraine, but thats just me speculating. Anyways, he should be out
of the way and allow our plans to proceed. He has stopped pushing the DMZ
in Scanadanvia though, which means he's probably considering a Northern
attack sooner rather than later. We'll have to keep an eye on him.
Brent
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:08 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
> I hope you are ok. I am sorry about what happened in US.
I'm fine, thanks. I'm 160 km from the Pentagon, 320 from the crash
site in western Pennsylvania, and 480 km from New York, so it was
scary on Tuesday, but not close enough to put me in any real danger.
> Thanks for the corrections to my English.
You've been perfectly understandable, I've just mentioned things
because you asked us too.
> > Well, your Armies can attack Austria or France, or both.
>
> Are you serious? I would attack Austria, where would my fleet be?
Well, given EIT, we have a potential problem with AR, so a harassing
attack on Trieste might be needed. Plus if you attack Trieste, I don't
have to worry about the Lepanto. 8-) If you wanted to attack Austria
rather than France, your Fleet could either sit in Tun, or move into Adr.
> Attacking France is more probable when my fleet is prohibited to go to
> Ionian. I need to be 100% sure that you are attacking Russia in order to
> move nap-tys,ven-pie.
Why do you need to know that I'm attacking Russia to attack France?
I don't see the connection between the two. As long as I don't build
Fleets,
I'm not a threat to you. Italy is NEVER Turkey's first target, but Turkey
is
often Italy's first target, so that's why I feel that I need to see the
Ionian DMZ.
Whether I ally with Russia to attack Austria or Austria to attack Russia
shouldn't impact EI vs. F, unless I build Fleets.
> AT is much easier to arrange. Promise Rum,Sev to A and ask for
> Gre and Bul to be yours (with fleets in there). I have done it (I hope I
> am better Italy than I had to face in that game while I was Turkey).
Yes, but if I ally with Austria and build Fleets, that makes IT
difficult,
if not impossible. I would think RT vs. A with a little help from you as
you and England and Germany attack France, and EG attack Russia in
the North, would be better for both of us.
> How probable is AR?
I don't know. Keith hasn't been talking much to anyone, so it seems
unlikely that he will survive long, but if I open Ank-Bla, Smy-Arm, Adam
is sure to try to arrange an AR response, and AR is more stable than AT.
Eric the Turk.
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:12 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Thanks for note and sorry about my silence the last couple of days. One of
my good friends was on one of the hijacked planes that hit the WTC. I think
it was flight 175 (like it makes a difference which one). So...not that my
week's been any harder than anyone else's, but the whole thing really threw
our household (and my circle of friends) for a loop. I've been holding off
dip for a couple of days and only find myself online now trying to get some
work done for the start of the week. I hope you and yours are doing as best
you can through this whole mess.
Funny thing is I *love* war games, but the actual thing just makes me sick
to my stomach whenever it comes even a bit close to home; I would have made
a terrible soldier. Now, being a diplomat, that I can do...or maybe a
King...yea, that I could really enjoy being King. Hmmm...know any monarchy
that's looking for a monarch? :)
In any case, I think we're all set for the spring. Most of S1901
negotiation is for personal connection anyhow and I think we're doing quite
well there. I never really understood the 1/2 hour chat time in the board
game for the first season. In my mind, F'01 is at least as important and
the *real* time to talk is in S'02. At least that's been my experience.
I hope you're doing well. Write when you're able.
- Steve
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:14 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Sorry I haven't written lately, but I imagine you understand. I appreciated
your last letter, but couldn't quite find the time during the week to write.
I, myself, am still reeling from Tuesday's event. It hit home pretty hard;
one lost and one temporarily unaccounted for (now found, thank God).
Things in the real world have changed a bunch since we last talked, but
gutsy-land remains pretty much the same. I've received a couple of notes,
but haven't heard much worth reporting. Evidently, Adam and Raine are
concerned about Keith and Eric (just on reputation I guess) while Brent's
relieved that Moscow will be heading south, but that's about it.
I hope you and yours are doing well through this whole mess. Write if you
can; once this turn is over, I think everyone will return to form.
- Steve
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:16 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
I am afraid of Juggernaut. Why? I gave Russia a piece of info and then
suddenly Turkey mails me and is aware of that. I hope I am overreacting.
Have you talked much with Turkey? Do you agree my fear of RT?
> I am working with you 100%, and that will likely continue to be the case
> as long as you're willing. You are far down on the list of people I'd
> like to eventually attack.
Thanks. I would like to move Nap-Ion,Rom-Apu and Ven-Tyr. Is that ok to
you? I think those moves are the best I can do to defend against RT alias
juggernaut.
Italy
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:17 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
About GE over GF
I would guess that F can hold on against GE so long that you would have
enough time to get the best out of G before E gets them. That is a
scenario I would like to see.
> Very little communication indeed, nothing from TA again.
:-|
> (Sorry if this is short and rushed, I wanted to reply
> before the deadline but I'm really busy this weekend)
No problem, I have been busy for a few days and had no time to contribute
to gutsy. Are you still moving to Gal and Bla?
Raine
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:19 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
Nice to hear that you are ok.
> You've been perfectly understandable, I've just mentioned things
> because you asked us too.
I'd appreciate if you could continue. If it is not too much trouble.
> Well, given EIT, we have a potential problem with AR, so a harassing
> attack on Trieste might be needed. Plus if you attack Trieste, I don't
> have to worry about the Lepanto. 8-) If you wanted to attack Austria
> rather than France, your Fleet could either sit in Tun, or move into Adr.
Yes, it would be nice to sit in Tunis having vacation :-) Seriously, I am
not going to attack Austria with everything I got. I want to be 100% sure
there ain't RT.
> Why do you need to know that I'm attacking Russia to attack France?
No matter what you do in S1901M if you see Italy moving Nap-Tys,Ven-Pie
and Rom-Tus you would be tempted to take that RT. The fact is that Austria
cannot held against RT without help from I.
> Whether I ally with Russia to attack Austria or Austria to attack Russia
> shouldn't impact EI vs. F, unless I build Fleets.
That is correct, absolutely with assumption of EIT.
> > AT is much easier to arrange. Promise Rum,Sev to A and ask for
> > Gre and Bul to be yours (with fleets in there). I have done it (I hope I
> > am better Italy than I had to face in that game while I was Turkey).
>
> Yes, but if I ally with Austria and build Fleets, that makes IT
> difficult,
> if not impossible.
Now you missed my point. I was just talking about AT vs. IT in general not
in gutsy. It is true that if you build fleets there is no longer EIT.
> I would think RT vs. A with a little help from you as
> you and England and Germany attack France, and EG attack Russia in
> the North, would be better for both of us.
Stop it! I won't even consider the possibility of RT against A with a
little help from I. That is crazy.
> > How probable is AR?
>
> I don't know. Keith hasn't been talking much to anyone, so it seems
> unlikely that he will survive long, but if I open Ank-Bla, Smy-Arm, Adam
> is sure to try to arrange an AR response, and AR is more stable than AT.
At least Keith is talking to me. I can see that you have a difficult times
ahead if Keith is silent. It leaves you to either side with Russia and
then EIT is history or to try to speak more to Keith and get him to join
you in a trip against Russia.
Raine
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:21 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England and Italy in 'gutsy':
> Message from as Italy to Turkey and England in 'gutsy':
>
> Ionian is the problem. How to solve it? Eric, how would you move if Italy
> will move Nar-Tys,Ven-Pie and Rom-Tus? I am not saying that I'll move
> that way, also I am not saying that I do not move like that.
At this point, I'm leaning toward Con-Bul, Ank-Bla, Smy-Ank.
> After the 1st move we can tell much more. Did Eric got to Black Sea
> (Did he even try ;-) ? That is one of the most important questions to
> me. Also if Eric moves Ank-Bla and Smy-Arm it is important to see how
> Russia moves. In case Turkey does not need to build the 2nd fleet I am
> more willing to leave Ionian DMZ.
Let's look at the worst-case scenario (from an Italian perspective).
Italy moves Ven-Pie, Rom-Ven, Nap-TyS, Turkey moves Con-Bul,
Ank-Con, Smy-Ank. In the Fall, Italy moves TyS-Tun, and builds
F Nap; Turkey moves Con-Aeg, and builds F Smy. In S'02, Italy
orders Tun S Nap-Ion, and Turkey orders Smy-EMed, and cannot
take Ion without support from Austria, or another Fleet build.
From the Turkish side, however, Nap-Ion, Rom-Apu, Ank-Bla,
Smy-Arm, followed by Apu-Ion-Con, B F Nap, B A Smy, and
then Ion-EMed, Nap-Ion is a major problem, so it seems as though
I'm the one who has more to worry about.
> To build up trust, could you Eric tell us what is your relationship to
> Austria and to Russia.
They seem ok, but it's rare for anyone to declare war before S1901M.
> I know these are difficult questions but I need to know if you are
> really working on TEI. Afterall Italy is more vulnerable than Turkey
> if TEI falls apart.
I don't see how you are more vulnerable, unless you attack Austria
AND France in F1901M. Why do you feel so vulnerable.
Eric the Turk.
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:23 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey and England in
'gutsy':
Dear Gentlemen,
> At this point, I'm leaning toward Con-Bul, Ank-Bla, Smy-Ank.
I would rather see Smy-Arm. That would give more bevieve in non-RT.
Ofcourse you can do what you want but that would be my humble wish.
> Let's look at the worst-case scenario (from an Italian perspective).
> Italy moves Ven-Pie, Rom-Ven, Nap-TyS, Turkey moves Con-Bul,
> Ank-Con, Smy-Ank. In the Fall, Italy moves TyS-Tun, and builds
> F Nap; Turkey moves Con-Aeg, and builds F Smy. In S'02, Italy
> orders Tun S Nap-Ion, and Turkey orders Smy-EMed, and cannot
> take Ion without support from Austria, or another Fleet build.
> From the Turkish side, however, Nap-Ion, Rom-Apu, Ank-Bla,
> Smy-Arm, followed by Apu-Ion-Con, B F Nap, B A Smy, and
> then Ion-EMed, Nap-Ion is a major problem, so it seems as though
> I'm the one who has more to worry about.
Like I said, I'll go against F with full forces only if I feel secure that
there ain't RT.
> > To build up trust, could you Eric tell us what is your relationship to
> > Austria and to Russia.
>
> They seem ok, but it's rare for anyone to declare war before S1901M.
:-| Ok, I was trying to see if you would dare to share your plans with
EIT. We are talking about 3way alliance. _Alliance_, the commitment.
You don't have to tell us what you are up to with AR but if you would say
more, then we could see that you trust us.
I want to underline that EIT is the way to do it. We have been talking
much about Ionian Sea and I hope you both realize that it is an important
area to me. When I defend my rights to Ionian I do not talk against EIT.
If the only way to do EIT is DMZ Ionian it means T against R (not RT
against A and Italy helps a bit). I hope you understand my point of view.
Raine
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:26 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: S1901M Mon Sep 17 2001 23:30:00 +1200
Movement results for Spring of 1901. (gutsy.001)
Austria: Army Budapest -> Serbia.
Austria: Army Vienna -> Galicia. (*bounce*)
Austria: Fleet Trieste -> Albania.
England: Army Liverpool -> Yorkshire.
England: Fleet Edinburgh -> Norwegian Sea.
England: Fleet London -> North Sea.
France: Army Marseilles -> Spain.
France: Army Paris -> Picardy.
France: Fleet Brest -> English Channel.
Germany: Army Berlin -> Kiel.
Germany: Army Munich -> Ruhr.
Germany: Fleet Kiel -> Denmark.
Italy: Army Rome -> Apulia.
Italy: Army Venice -> Tyrolia.
Italy: Fleet Naples -> Ionian Sea.
Russia: Army Moscow -> Ukraine.
Russia: Army Warsaw -> Galicia. (*bounce*)
Russia: Fleet Sevastopol -> Black Sea. (*bounce*)
Russia: Fleet St Petersburg (south coast) -> Gulf of Bothnia.
Turkey: Army Constantinople -> Bulgaria.
Turkey: Army Smyrna -> Armenia.
Turkey: Fleet Ankara -> Black Sea. (*bounce*)
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Movement for Fall of 1901.
The deadline for orders will be Thu Sep 20 2001 20:00:00 +1200.
