Fall 1912
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From - Tue Feb 26 22:46:15 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Oh dear, I had hoped your last message was a sign that
you were ready to move away from my centers so that I
could perhaps try for a draw instead. I guess not. As
you can see, France now has at least two units on Mos,
I think he'll be across the stalemate line before you
move Sev away now. It makes cooperation between us
more akward, there's only three moves left before the
French solo in all probability and you'll need at least
one of those (probably two) to return Sev and Rum to
Russia before I can change direction. I hope
you know what you're doing, I'd say the French solo
is more or less inevitable now.
Adam..........
From - Tue Feb 26 22:46:16 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
Well, apart from Germany convoying the wrong unit over
to LVN that went about how we'd hoped. I guess he's
hoping to make sure he's part of any stalemate line
that develops. Raine still occupies Sev and Rum so
you still have at least another phase worth of cooperation
from me though. Your plan had the unit that's currently
in LVN being the one that crossed the stalemate line
and took War. I assume this means a reassessment of some
kind.
Adam.........
From - Tue Feb 26 22:46:17 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
As expected, it looks like there is a guess for Moscow or Warsaw. Not so
expectedly, I will be able to keep Sweden for another year, so I might have
a second chance if we guess wrong this fall. I think I prefer trying for
Moscow, but will do whatever you and/or Italy agree to as long as I have a
chance of taking Moscow or Warsaw.
I haven't been talking with Italy, so I'm sort of relying upon you to
coordinate this. I'm not sure whether me getting directly involved in the
discussions would be beneficial or not.
Tim
From - Tue Feb 26 22:46:18 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
I had to give myself a chance to get into position on the stalemate
line. My motivation for helping you was to see Russia pay for attacking me
a few years back. I don't see him surviving whether you solo or there is a
draw. I could easily be proven wrong, but rolling over without giving the
stalemate position a try seems pretty weak.
Tim
From - Tue Feb 26 22:46:21 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
If Russia plays it right, the only move that has any chance of success is
Ukr-Mos, Lvn-Stp, Gal-Sil, Sev s Ukr-Mos. Russia can move War-Ukr and
France can order Stp S Mos.
There are other options, of course, that involve a guessing game. We
could attack both Warsaw and Moscow, for instance.
If we take Moscow this turn, there's a good chance you could get Warsaw
next turn.
Austria
From - Tue Feb 26 22:46:24 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
>If Russia plays it right, the only move that has any chance of success is
>Ukr-Mos, Lvn-Stp, Gal-Sil, Sev s Ukr-Mos. Russia can move War-Ukr and
>France can order Stp S Mos.
But, WAR-UKR means that LVN-WAR (UKR S) would succeed. Doesn't UKR_MOS
(SEV S), UKR-WAR and LVN-STP guarantee you take Moscow? I had overlooked
that before, probably because I was trying to get myself to Moscow. But,
as you point out, once you are in Moscow, there is a good chance I can get
to Warsaw next year. That is, if you're willing to help me in instead of
trying to take it for yourself.
I don't know if Russia will be "playing it right" or still trying to dump
centers to France (or some combination). So, I'm not sure whether the
conservative approach is required.
Tim
From - Tue Feb 26 22:46:25 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Well, apart from Germany convoying the wrong unit over
> to LVN that went about how we'd hoped.
The moves were all guaranteed - *if* everybody followed the plan.
> I guess he's
> hoping to make sure he's part of any stalemate line
> that develops.
Yeah, that's what he told me. I guess I can't blame him, though it's quite a long
shot that he'll actually survive.
> Raine still occupies Sev and Rum so
> you still have at least another phase worth of cooperation
> from me though.
Excellent! I appreciate knowing under what conditions you'll work for a French win.
I'll understand if you later decide that you have a chance to draw, but I hope you
won't surprise me about it like the German did.
> Your plan had the unit that's currently
> in LVN being the one that crossed the stalemate line
> and took War. I assume this means a reassessment of some
> kind.
Definitely. We didn't actually need support from his units after the supposed convoy
of Kie-Lvn, but if he actively opposes me then things will be difficult. I'll have to
ponder the board. I'm happy to take suggestions if you want to help plot a French
win, but if you prefer to just take orders that's fine too.
Rod
From - Tue Feb 26 22:46:26 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
> rolling over without giving the
> stalemate position a try seems pretty weak.
I understand, but I think it's quite a long shot.
> My motivation for helping you was to see Russia pay for attacking me
> a few years back.
Do you not care how the game ends as long as Russia dies, or do you have some
preference for losing to a solo versus a draw?
Rod
From - Tue Feb 26 22:46:28 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
Well, I was prepared to apologize for violating the DMZ, but I guess if you broke
it at the same time then neither of us needs to be sorry about it. ;-)
Germany and Russia both claimed they would help me win, and if they had both been
sincere then we could have forced a French win in two years, so of course I had to
go for it. Now it turns out that Germany fancies a share in a draw, which seems rather
unlikely, but I guess he felt he had to try it.
I still want to be open with you, so after I figure out whether I can win even without
Germany's help, I'll let you know what I've decided. Of course, you must stop me from
winning if at all possible, but I hope that if I fail we will still be able to
arrange a two-way.
Rod
From - Tue Feb 26 22:46:30 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> >If Russia plays it right, the only move that has any chance of success is
> >Ukr-Mos, Lvn-Stp, Gal-War, Sev s Ukr-Mos. Russia can move War-Ukr and
> >France can order Stp S Mos.
>
> But, WAR-UKR means that LVN-WAR (UKR S) would succeed. Doesn't UKR_MOS
> (SEV S), UKR-WAR and LVN-STP guarantee you take Moscow?
Yes, this is what I mention above (I had written Gal-Sil, I meant Gal-War).
> I had overlooked
> that before, probably because I was trying to get myself to Moscow. But,
> as you point out, once you are in Moscow, there is a good chance I can get
> to Warsaw next year. That is, if you're willing to help me in instead of
> trying to take it for yourself.
I think we're in this together. As I mentioned, once we are in Warsaw
and Moscow, we are in a good position to dictate moves. We can give an
ultimatum, and if that fails, we should make good on the threat to throw
the game.
> I don't know if Russia will be "playing it right" or still trying to dump
> centers to France (or some combination). So, I'm not sure whether the
> conservative approach is required.
I think we should assume the worst. If Russia loses Stp and Mos, he will
be much easier to handle.
I think we have good chances for Warsaw next year. The only threat is
that France could move in his armies and be in position to threaten it in
the Fall, but if he does that, then Russia will only have one center
(Warsaw) left after this year, and we can easily take Warsaw in the Spring.
Austria
From - Tue Feb 26 22:46:33 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Germany has agreed to help me take Moscow. He will move Lvn-Stp while I
move Ukr-Mos with your support from Sev, and I will move Gal-War and
Bud-Vie. Rum-Ukr would be good, though it could be bounced if Russia
moves War-Ukr.
As far as I know, Russia and France still believe Germany is on their side.
Austria
From - Tue Feb 26 22:46:34 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Oh, I forgot to ask, do Russia and France still think you are on their
side? And if so, what do they want you to do this turn?
Austria
From - Tue Feb 26 22:46:36 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> Yeah, that's what he told me. I guess I can't blame
> him, though it's quite a long shot that he'll actually survive.
Very long indeed if he's being akward to you I'd have thought. He
can be eliminated this fall if you can convince him not to order
Bal - Swe. If he's not following orders any more then I'd have
thought you might as well do it.
> > Raine still occupies Sev and Rum so
> > you still have at least another phase worth of cooperation
> > from me though.
>
> Excellent! I appreciate knowing under what conditions you'll
> work for a French win. I'll understand if you later decide that
> you have a chance to draw, but I hope you won't surprise me about
> it like the German did.
Nah, the thing about threatening to throw the game is that
the threat has to be believeable and for it to be believable
you have to intend to go through with it. Once you get into
that situation the most honesty you can throw at people
the more credible the threat is. I might conceivably let
Raine get away with just Sev becomming Russian and a
promise on Rumania, but he'd have to follow through on
the promise after that too.
> > I assume this means a reassessment of some kind.
>
> Definitely. We didn't actually need support from his units
> after the supposed convoy of Kie-Lvn, but if he actively opposes
> me then things will be difficult. I'll have to ponder the board.
> I'm happy to take suggestions if you want to help plot a French
> win, but if you prefer to just take orders that's fine too.
Well, Raine's fleets are heading your way without any
question. Looks like to keep them bottled up in the Med
you'll need another fleet involved in that battle.
Raine will probably have F Lyo/West/Naf by next
year so you'll need to be able to support MAO from
two places he can't cut it. That's worth bearing in
mind whatever else happens.
Looks to me like Eliminating Germany is your best bet,
at worst you can walk the armies from Kie across to
Pru. and get across the stalemate line somewhere
around there. Course, it's up to you at the moment.
ADam..........
From - Tue Feb 26 22:46:42 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Oh, I forgot to ask, do Russia and France still think you are on their
>side? And if so, what do they want you to do this turn?
I was supposed to convoy KIE-LVN last turn, so they know I've broken loose
from the French solo effort.
I will order LVN-STP and BAL-SWE, then remove the fleet and hope to take
Warsaw next year.
Tim
From - Tue Feb 26 22:46:53 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> I was supposed to convoy KIE-LVN last turn, so they know I've broken loose
> from the French solo effort.
Oh, I see that now. I didn't pay attention to the exact moves there.
> I will order LVN-STP and BAL-SWE, then remove the fleet and hope to take
> Warsaw next year.
Okay, I'll let you know if Italy agrees to support me to Moscow again.
Austria
From - Wed Feb 27 16:38:09 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
I suspect Germany will try to convince AI to support him to either War
or Mos. If we knew which it would be then we could defend it, but a
perfect defense of either leaves the other very vulnerable.
Maybe it's better to not worry about it and just make a hard push in the
center while you still have units in position. I'm thinking maybe Boh S
Mun-Tyl, War S Sil-Gal, StP S Mos, Mos S War. It might not really
accomplish anything, but perhaps a little chaos will buy me some time.
What do you think of this?
We need to preserve as many of your units as possible, so maybe I should
leave Ber open and hope Germany doesn't move there. If I were him, I'd
go for the sure bounce Bal-Swe rather than try my luck at sneaking into
an open center.
Rod
From - Wed Feb 27 16:38:14 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
Keith,
If you don't expect to share in a draw, this may be your last chance to
act as kingmaker. Germany has defected, making a French win a long
shot, but I feel it's still worth a try before I pull back and try to
talk Raine into a two-way. Let me know what you want to do.
Rod
From - Wed Feb 27 16:38:49 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> If you don't expect to share in a draw, this may be your last chance to
> act as kingmaker. Germany has defected, making a French win a long
> shot, but I feel it's still worth a try before I pull back and try to
> talk Raine into a two-way. Let me know what you want to do.
My primary goal is to see Russia eliminated. If you help me, perhaps I
can return the favor. I realize that you have an easy two-way, but I
don't want to see Italy share in a two-way. If Italy moves this way, I
will throw the game to you. I would suggest keeping your units within
striking distance, because if Italy moves against me, it will happen very
rapidly, and we may only have one turn. When Russia is eliminated, I will
have some very strict demands for Italy. If he doesn't meet them, which
is very likely, you will win. A two way is a certainty for you. A solo
is more likely than a three-way. I don't know your utility function, but
I know what I would do in your shoes.
Austria
From - Wed Feb 27 16:38:51 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> My primary goal is to see Russia eliminated.
Is it sufficient that he lose, or must he be completely eliminated? I need all
but one of his centers to win. I suppose we could find a way for him to lose that
last center as well, but it will require some extra work.
> If you help me, perhaps I can return the favor.
I appreciate that you have explained your motivation to me, so I'll explain what
I'm planning, and we can determine whether there's a useful intersection.
> I don't know your utility function, but
> I know what I would do in your shoes.
My goal is to win. If I don't win, I will do whatever it takes (short of risking
a loss) to secure a two-way. The irony is that I must ask for your help while
telling you that I want you to lose.
> I would suggest keeping your units within striking distance
I intend to prepare to take either War or Mos, but with Germany now opposing me it
will require a couple of years for me to get into position.
> When Russia is eliminated, I will
> have some very strict demands for Italy.
Russia claims that he'll help me win until Raine agrees to return Sev and Rum to
him, so as long as Russia stays true I don't think it's in my best interests to
help you eliminate him. If you get his centers then you're more likely to draw,
which makes you disinclined to assist me.
I can more quickly get into striking position if Germany dies ASAP. OTOH, Germany
might help you achieve your goal of eliminating Russia. How do we reconcile these
conflicting goals?
Rod
From - Wed Feb 27 16:38:53 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> > My primary goal is to see Russia eliminated.
>
> Is it sufficient that he lose, or must he be completely eliminated? I need all
but one of his centers to win. I suppose we could find a way for him to lose that
last center as well, but it will require some extra work.
I would like to survive longer than Russia.
> > I would suggest keeping your units within striking distance
> I intend to prepare to take either War or Mos, but with Germany now
> opposing me it will require a couple of years for me to get into position.
I suggest taking the German centers from Russia. His units won't be in
better positions than yours would be at the end of the year. Not much
better, in any case.
> Russia claims that he'll help me win until Raine agrees to return Sev
> and Rum to him, so as long as Russia stays true I don't think it's in my
> best interests to help you eliminate him. If you get his centers then
> you're more likely to draw, which makes you disinclined to assist me.
Russia will be no help to you. You two don't have the units in place.
You can't really take Warsaw or Russia while Russia occupies them,
anyway, because he can't support you against himself, and it is difficult
for him to get out of the way.
> I can more quickly get into striking position if Germany dies ASAP.
> OTOH, Germany might help you achieve your goal of eliminating Russia. How
> do we reconcile these conflicting goals?
I don't see that Germany is holding you back. Russia is holding you back.
Your main force lies west of the Russian units. You need to get those
units against Warsaw.
Austria
From - Wed Feb 27 16:38:55 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> I would like to survive longer than Russia.
Is it good enough if I win and he has one center and you have at least two?
> Your main force lies west of the Russian units. You need to get those
> units against Warsaw.
I agree that his position makes things awkward, but I'm not convinced that I should
force him to disband several units in order to alleviate the bottleneck.
> You can't really take Warsaw or Russia while Russia occupies them
With *your* help I could. ;-)
It sounds like our respective goals don't quite mesh well yet, but hopefully next
year that will change.
Rod
From - Thu Feb 28 17:27:13 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> I suspect Germany will try to convince AI to support him to either War
> or Mos. If we knew which it would be then we could defend it, but a
> perfect defense of either leaves the other very vulnerable.
True, I guess that probably is his plan. I wouldn't be surprised
if Keith agreed to do it and maybe between them they could talk
Raine into, gasp, changing a plan. It's probably worth noting
that Raine has taken one of Keith's supply centers. Probably
he had promised to give Keith either War or Mos to make up
so that may make Germany's position weaker.
> Maybe it's better to not worry about it and just make a hard push in the
> center while you still have units in position. I'm thinking maybe Boh S
> Mun-Tyl, War S Sil-Gal, StP S Mos, Mos S War. It might not really
> accomplish anything, but perhaps a little chaos will buy me some time.
> What do you think of this?
I doubt it will acomplish anything at all but that's up to you.
StP S Mos in the hope of fighting off the opposition or StP - Lvn
in the hope of leaving me with one less disband should Lvn
gain access to Mos/War. That's a good question.
> We need to preserve as many of your units as possible, so maybe I should
> leave Ber open and hope Germany doesn't move there. If I were him, I'd
> go for the sure bounce Bal-Swe rather than try my luck at sneaking into
> an open center.
Me too, if he doesn't move to Swe he's taking an extroninary risk
since he has to be sure that you plan to take his current centers
as quickly as you can now.
Adam........
From - Thu Feb 28 17:27:15 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> Russia before I can change direction. I hope
> you know what you're doing, I'd say the French solo
> is more or less inevitable now.
If France wins this game that is fine. I think he has been a good diplomat
and he deserves the win if he can take it. Of course I'd like to see him
win with his own actions and not 'cause someone gives the solo to him but
nevertheless it is nothing away from him if someone gives the solo to him.
I see that it is more like something away from the one who plays the
kingmaker rather than takes a part in draw.
You still have the chance to be in draw. Take it or leave it. As you can
see I am heading against France in Med. I was hoping to surprise Rod but
he seems to think like I do, so no surprises. I don't know who gave you
the idea of 2way between FI but I am sad that I have had too little time
to convince you that I am playing for the solo as long as there is a
little chance for it.
I will support you to hold in Munich if you want to. Austria will be
reduced down to maximum of 2 units. I should be able to get rid of him to
reduce gutsy to 3way but if you decide something else then I have to live
with that.
Raine
From - Thu Feb 28 17:27:16 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Please forgive me my silence. Workload has been enormous lately. I haven't
talked to anyone so don't take my silence personal.
> Germany has agreed to help me take Moscow. He will move Lvn-Stp while I
> move Ukr-Mos with your support from Sev, and I will move Gal-War and
> Bud-Vie. Rum-Ukr would be good, though it could be bounced if Russia
> moves War-Ukr.
Do you have any ideas of Russia intentions now? That would help me to
decide what to do in order to keep you as strong as possible. I will
suggest him to take my support for Mun hold. He wanted me to give Rumania
and Sevastopol to him in order to get him from playing kingmaker.
> As far as I know, Russia and France still believe Germany is on their side.
France talked like he believed that Germany is not in his side. I am not
able to tell if he talks the truth to me or to you.
I have not decided my moves, yet. I am now able to stare at map for the
first time with thought after the last moves. Do you have suggestions if I
should move to Naf or Wes? I can only have one of them for sure.
At first it looks like Wes is better place to be. If Rod takes Naf and
moves to Mao it means that I cannot take Naf back, though.
Do you want me to support you to Vie? If you here nothing from me it means
that I'll support you to Mos.
Have you thought about the possibility that Kie-Bal-Lvn (*void*) was
bluff? I have no evidence I am just guessing. Tim hasn't talked to me for
ages.
Raine
From - Thu Feb 28 17:27:18 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Sorry for the long silence. Diplomacy isn't the first priority in my life.
> Well, I was prepared to apologize for violating the DMZ, but I guess if you
> broke it at the same time then neither of us needs to be sorry about it.
> ;-)
I was _sure_ that you'll broke our deal :-) I was also prepared to
apologize but I'm happy to see that we are thinking likewise.
> Germany and Russia both claimed they would help me win, and if they had
> both been sincere then we could have forced a French win in two years,
> so of course I had to go for it. Now it turns out that Germany fancies
> a share in a draw, which seems rather
> unlikely, but I guess he felt he had to try it.
I understand if Germany tries to be a part in draw. I'd try for it for
sure. Now that the situation is changed a bit I'd like to suggest you to
withdraw a little. Why? Because we don't want to have bigger than 3way,
right?
> I still want to be open with you, so after I figure out whether I can win
> even without Germany's help, I'll let you know what I've decided. Of
> course, you must stop me from winning if at all possible, but I hope
> that if I fail we will still be able to
> arrange a two-way.
I will play open game too. It is more fun that way. If you fail in your
solo attemp you must retreat from major stalemate line in order to be able
to get the 2way.
Raine
From - Thu Feb 28 17:27:20 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Do you have any ideas of Russia intentions now? That would help me to
> decide what to do in order to keep you as strong as possible. I will
> suggest him to take my support for Mun hold. He wanted me to give Rumania
> and Sevastopol to him in order to get him from playing kingmaker.
I haven't communicated with Russia in years. Germany thinks that Russia
still wants to throw the game.
> > As far as I know, Russia and France still believe Germany is on their side.
>
> France talked like he believed that Germany is not in his side. I am not
> able to tell if he talks the truth to me or to you.
We shall see. Actually, I think Germany was supposed to convoy Kiel-Lvn
instead of his own army. I didn't notice that at first.
> I have not decided my moves, yet. I am now able to stare at map for the
> first time with thought after the last moves. Do you have suggestions if I
> should move to Naf or Wes? I can only have one of them for sure.
> At first it looks like Wes is better place to be. If Rod takes Naf and
> moves to Mao it means that I cannot take Naf back, though.
Since France's fleet is in Spa/nc, I would suggest moving Tus-Lyo,
Tys-Wes and Tun-Naf. You have nothing to lose. France can bounce either
Wes or Naf, but not both. France is actually in quite a bit of trouble.
He'll have to move Mid-Wes or else you can take Spain. But, he may move
Bur-Gas and Ruh-Bur, too. In this case he can't take Munich.
> Do you want me to support you to Vie? If you here nothing from me it means
> that I'll support you to Mos.
Okay, I'll expect Tri S Bud-Vie. I would also suggest Rum-Ukr in
addition to your support of Ukr-Mos. In the best case scenario for me,
I'd get a build, but you would still be able to crush me in an instant if
you wanted.
Austria
From - Thu Feb 28 17:27:21 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Of course I'd like to see him
> win with his own actions and not 'cause someone gives the solo to him
The only way anyone ever gets a solo is if the other players
don't stop fighting and stop him. All solo's are given away.
While you are still insisting that Rumania and Sev will not
go back to Russian control I still believe you intend to
eliminate me. I will throw the game to France rather than
be eliminated. I don't make game-throwing threats idley,
there's no point in them if they aren't believable.
> You still have the chance to be in draw.
I think I agree, once you have decided not to eliminate
me and shown that by vacating Sev and at least making a
promise on Rum. I need enough units on the south side
of the stalemate line to prevent you eliminating me.
> I was hoping to surprise Rod
How can you hope for surprise when you tell me that you intend
to do it? It was obvious anyway of course but you have to realize
that I'm trying to help France win right now, I'm bound to warn
him of an attack.
> I don't know who gave you
> the idea of 2way between FI but I am sad that I have had too little time
> to convince you that I am playing for the solo as long as there is a
> little chance for it.
I'm sure you are trying for a solo, and I'm making sure
that if you continue to play for the solo you'll end up
losing to Frances solo instead. If you want the draw rather
than French solo you really need to pull out of Sev very soon.
I really think it'll be too late next year, by then there'll
probably be little I can do.
> I will support you to hold in Munich
No point, Munich is attacking you. It will continue to
do so until you vacate Sev. We've both known for ages
that the only thing keeping France taking Scandinavia
and Germany was that he wasn't ready to attack me yet.
He is now which is why I need centers SOUTH of the
stalemate line, the ones in the north are effectively
already French.
> Austria will be reduced down to maximum of 2 units.
You can eliminate Austria this move, which will help
though will still be insufficent to stop me throwing
to France. Gal's support will be cut so you can attack
Bud with Rum S Ser - Bud and Vie with Tri S Tyr - Vie.
Tyr's support will be cut too so you can't rely on
that. Any other orders show you want Austria to survive,
presumably so he can help eliminate me which obviously
I can't encourage.
> I should be able to get rid of him to
> reduce gutsy to 3way but if you decide something else then I have to live
> with that.
Germany will still be in the game for another year, but so
long as he hasn't convinced you to support him into Mos/War
he'll be eliminated next year. After that I'll start setting
draw but I'll still require you to vacate Sev and Rum before
I stop helping and start fighting France.
Heck, I'll start setting draw now.
Adam...........
From - Thu Feb 28 17:27:26 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Probably
> he had promised to give Keith either War or Mos to make up
> so that may make Germany's position weaker.
Yes, let's hope they can't agree on who gets what. :-)
> I doubt it will acomplish anything at all but that's up to you.
We might as well try *something*, so unless we dream up a better plan, please do
Boh S Mun-Tyl, War S Sil-Gal. I'll keep Mun and Ber open.
> StP S Mos in the hope of fighting off the opposition or StP - Lvn
> in the hope of leaving me with one less disband should Lvn
> gain access to Mos/War. That's a good question.
It's an excellent question. If we think Austria might try for Mos then StP S Mos
is probably better. OTOH, if it's Lvn that will attack War or Mos then StP-Lvn
is preferable. I'm inclined to hope that AI won't help G into a center and therefore
have a slight preference for StP S Mos, but if you feel that StP-Lvn is better I'll
do it. It's a close enough call that I'm happy to go with whichever you prefer.
Let me know.
Rod
From - Thu Feb 28 17:27:24 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> I was _sure_ that you'll broke our deal :-) I was also prepared to
> apologize but I'm happy to see that we are thinking likewise.
I guess you were right. :-)
> Now that the situation is changed a bit I'd like to suggest you to
> withdraw a little. Why? Because we don't want to have bigger than 3way,
> right?
I plan to defend Iberia with a stalemate, but I will not enter the Med.
> I will play open game too. It is more fun that way. If you fail in your
> solo attemp you must retreat from major stalemate line in order to be able
> to get the 2way.
I will continue to push forward in the north in hopes of securing an 18th center,
but if I fail I will take any reasonable steps necessary to secure a two-way.
Rod
From - Thu Feb 28 17:27:31 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> We might as well try *something*, so unless we dream up a
> better plan, please do Boh S Mun-Tyl, War S Sil-Gal. I'll
> keep Mun and Ber open.
Okay, orders are in.
> If we think Austria might try for Mos then StP S Mos is probably
> better. OTOH, if it's Lvn that will attack War or Mos then StP-Lvn
> is preferable. I'm inclined to hope that AI won't help G into a
> center and therefore have a slight preference for StP S Mos, but
> if you feel that StP-Lvn is better I'll do it. It's a close enough
> call that I'm happy to go with whichever you prefer. Let me know.
Well I don't know what's going to happen I'm sure. I'd probably
toss a coin if it were my decision: Heads - Support Moscow.
Hope that helps. Heh.
Adam.........
From - Thu Feb 28 17:27:33 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Okay, orders are in.
I have now entered my orders as well.
> I'd probably
> toss a coin if it were my decision: Heads - Support Moscow.
> Hope that helps. Heh.
As long as it's a *lucky* coin. :-)
The coin has spoken - I'll support Mos.
Rod
From - Fri Mar 01 17:45:58 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Russia tells me that he is helping France to solo. He won't take my
offered support to Mun hold 'cause he is attacking me.
> I haven't communicated with Russia in years. Germany thinks that Russia
> still wants to throw the game.
I agree with German.
> We shall see. Actually, I think Germany was supposed to convoy Kiel-Lvn
> instead of his own army. I didn't notice that at first.
I am not sure what to think of this convoy ...
> Since France's fleet is in Spa/nc, I would suggest moving Tus-Lyo,
> Tys-Wes and Tun-Naf. You have nothing to lose. France can bounce either
> Wes or Naf, but not both. France is actually in quite a bit of trouble.
> He'll have to move Mid-Wes or else you can take Spain. But, he may move
> Bur-Gas and Ruh-Bur, too. In this case he can't take Munich.
He is not in a hurry to get Mun 'casuse Russia gives it away, I guess.
> > Do you want me to support you to Vie? If you here nothing from me it means
> > that I'll support you to Mos.
>
> Okay, I'll expect Tri S Bud-Vie. I would also suggest Rum-Ukr in
> addition to your support of Ukr-Mos. In the best case scenario for me,
> I'd get a build, but you would still be able to crush me in an instant if
> you wanted.
At 1st I had not the support included but I changed my orders to make you
happy both Bud-Vie and Ukr-Mos are supported now. I made the moves in a
hurry so I hope everything else is ok there too.
I don't want to crush you. You are more sensible than Russia.
Raine
From - Fri Mar 01 17:46:02 2002
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1912M Fri Mar 01 2002 20:00:00 +1300
Movement results for Fall of 1912. (gutsy.049)
Austria: Army Ukraine -> Moscow.
Austria: Army Galicia -> Warsaw. (*bounce*)
Austria: Army Budapest -> Vienna.
France: Army Marseilles -> Piedmont. (*bounce*)
France: Army St Petersburg SUPPORT Russian Army Moscow. (*cut*)
France: Fleet Barents Sea SUPPORT Army St Petersburg.
France: Army Holland SUPPORT Fleet Helgoland Bight -> Kiel.
France: Fleet Helgoland Bight -> Kiel.
France: Fleet North Sea -> Denmark.
France: Army Kiel -> Ruhr.
France: Fleet Norway -> Sweden. (*bounce*)
France: Army Ruhr -> Burgundy.
France: Fleet Spain (north coast) -> Portugal.
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean -> Western Mediterranean. (*bounce*)
France: Army Burgundy -> Gascony.
Germany: Army Livonia -> St Petersburg. (*bounce*)
Germany: Fleet Baltic Sea -> Sweden. (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Rumania SUPPORT Army Sevastopol.
Italy: Army Serbia -> Budapest.
Italy: Fleet Black Sea SUPPORT Army Rumania.
Italy: Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea -> Western Mediterranean.
Italy: Fleet Tuscany -> Gulf of Lyon.
Italy: Army Tyrolia SUPPORT Austrian Army Budapest -> Vienna. (*cut, dislodged*)
Italy: Fleet Tunis SUPPORT Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea -> Western Mediterranean.
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea -> Tyrrhenian Sea.
Italy: Army Sevastopol SUPPORT Austrian Army Ukraine -> Moscow.
Italy: Army Trieste SUPPORT Army Serbia -> Budapest.
Italy: Army Piedmont SUPPORT Army Tyrolia. (*cut*)
Russia: Army Moscow SUPPORT Army Warsaw. (*cut, dislodged*)
Russia: Army Munich -> Tyrolia.
Russia: Army Silesia -> Galicia. (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Bohemia SUPPORT Army Munich -> Tyrolia.
Russia: Army Warsaw SUPPORT Army Moscow. (*cut*)
The following units were dislodged:
The Italian Army in Tyrolia can retreat to Venice.
The Russian Army in Moscow with no valid retreats was destroyed.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Retreats for Fall of 1912.
The deadline for orders will be Sat Mar 02 2002 19:01:59 +1300.
From - Fri Mar 01 17:46:18 2002
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1912R Sat Mar 02 2002 19:01:59 +1300
Retreat orders for Fall of 1912. (gutsy.050)
Italy: Army Tyrolia -> Venice.
Ownership of supply centers:
Austria: Moscow, Vienna.
France: Belgium, Brest, Denmark, Edinburgh, Holland, Kiel, Liverpool,
London, Marseilles, Norway, Paris, Portugal, Spain, St Petersburg.
Germany: Sweden.
Italy: Ankara, Budapest, Bulgaria, Constantinople, Greece, Naples, Rome,
Rumania, Serbia, Sevastopol, Smyrna, Trieste, Tunis, Venice.
Russia: Berlin, Munich, Warsaw.
Austria: 2 Supply centers, 3 Units: Removes 1 unit.
England: 0 Supply centers, 0 Units: Builds 0 units.
France: 14 Supply centers, 12 Units: Builds 2 units.
Germany: 1 Supply center, 2 Units: Removes 1 unit.
Italy: 14 Supply centers, 11 Units: Builds 3 units.
Russia: 3 Supply centers, 4 Units: Removes 1 unit.
Turkey: 0 Supply centers, 0 Units: Builds 0 units.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Adjustments for Winter of 1912.
The deadline for orders will be Sat Mar 02 2002 19:38:21 +1300.
From - Fri Mar 01 17:46:34 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
Well, I guess if AGI are going to guarantee themselves Mos then there's not much
we can do about it....
I wonder what Germany gets out of it? Perhaps they promised him War.
Maybe you should remove Tyl. If I'm to eventually get War or Mos, we need as many
eastern armies as possible.
It doesn't look like I'll be able to force a win, but there's still hope. Austria
said he'd rather throw the game than get squeezed out of a two-way, so I need to
work that angle. :-)
Rod
From - Fri Mar 01 17:46:42 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
Keith,
The best thing for me would probably be for you to remove A Mos, but I guess if
you expect that to be the center that keeps you in the draw then it ain't gonna
happen. :-)
OTOH, I don't see how you'll be able to arrange a three-way regardless. You can't
hold the line against me without Raine's help, but if you do establish a stalemate
then I'll just pull back and let him consummate the two-way. Or are you planning to
reclaim some home centers and build your own independent defense?
Rod
From - Fri Mar 01 17:46:43 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
I think you need to make some sort of arrangement with Austria. Whether you plan
to share in a draw or help me win, I don't think you can accomplish either without
his assistance.
Rod
From - Fri Mar 01 17:46:46 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
It looks like everything is proceeding as expected. We have a stalemate in the
south, and if you can just make sure that I don't get Mos or War then I'll pull
back and let you finish them off.
Rod
From - Fri Mar 01 17:46:47 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
>I think you need to make some sort of arrangement with Austria. Whether
>you plan to share in a draw or help me win, I don't think you can
>accomplish either without his assistance.
True enough. Actually, you could help me share in the draw, but I don't
imagine that's in the cards.
This has been about Russian payback for me. I'm pretty sure Russia is not
taking part in any draw, so I've turned my attention to a possible place in
the draw. I know it's a long shot, but it doesn't seem impossible.
Tim
From - Fri Mar 01 17:46:52 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
So far, so good. How are things going with Italy? Are we going to have to
convince him that if he doesn't help us get entrenched in Moscow and Warsaw
then we'll throw the game to France, or does he already understand the
situation?
What do you think our best play this spring is? (We have to wait until
fall when Italy will have a unit in UKR before we have a real chance to
take Warsaw.)
Tim
From - Fri Mar 01 17:46:53 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> So far, so good. How are things going with Italy? Are we going to have to
> convince him that if he doesn't help us get entrenched in Moscow and Warsaw
> then we'll throw the game to France, or does he already understand the
> situation?
>
> What do you think our best play this spring is? (We have to wait until
> fall when Italy will have a unit in UKR before we have a real chance to
> take Warsaw.)
Italy was supposed to be in Ukr now. Instead he decided to stay in
Rumania to take a center from me. Plus, he took two centers from me this
year. I am about ready to throw the game. Now is the time to make some
demands on Italy. Extreme demands. If he doesn't do them, we should
throw the game.
What do you think?
Austria
From - Fri Mar 01 17:46:54 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Italy was supposed to be in Ukr now. Instead he decided to stay in
>Rumania to take a center from me. Plus, he took two centers from me this
>year. I am about ready to throw the game. Now is the time to make some
>demands on Italy. Extreme demands. If he doesn't do them, we should
>throw the game.
>
>What do you think?
It appears Italy does not understand the dynamic. Let's make our demands
and toss the game to France if he doesn't agree. You start and I'll chime
in with agreement.
Tim
From - Fri Mar 01 17:46:55 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> It appears Italy does not understand the dynamic. Let's make our demands
> and toss the game to France if he doesn't agree. You start and I'll chime
> in with agreement.
What should we ask for? Can we also make demands of France?
Italy's moves make it very difficult for me to continue. I will need to
remove a unit. It was not necessary for him to take either Bud or Rum,
and he sould have moved Rum-Ukr in any case.
How about this: I move Mos-Sev, Gal-Bud. He moves Sev-Ukr, Bla-Con,
Rum-Gal, and the other armies out of the way, depending on what Russia
removes. We will support you to Moscow in the Fall.
Does this look good?
Austria
From - Fri Mar 01 17:46:56 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
Italy's moves have put me on the verge of throwing the game. I will have
some strict demands for Italy, and if they are not met, you will win.
Austria
From - Sun Mar 03 15:29:18 2002
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1912B Sat Mar 02 2002 19:38:21 +1300
Adjustment orders for Winter of 1912. (gutsy.051)
Austria: Removes the army in Vienna.
Germany: Removes the fleet in the Baltic Sea.
Russia: Removes the army in Tyrolia.
Italy: Builds an army in Rome.
Italy: Builds an army in Naples.
France: Builds an army in Paris.
France: Builds a fleet in Brest.
Italy: 1 unusable build pending.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Movement for Spring of 1913.
The deadline for orders will be Wed Mar 06 2002 20:00:00 +1300.
