Fall 1910
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From - Mon Feb 04 21:40:31 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
I see you have chosen to attack me. You may occupy my centers briefly,
but Italy will take them from you. The longer I hold out, the safer your
Southern frontier will be. Your quickest route to death is to be crushed
between France and Italy.
Austria
From - Mon Feb 04 21:40:34 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Upon looking at the board, I believe that both our goals would be
satisfied if you were to move War-Sil. This will allow me to keep four
armies to defend my home centers against Italy for another year or two.
Though France can take Norway and either Kiel or Munich, you can still
get a build by keeping Rumania.
Austria
From - Tue Feb 05 18:38:41 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
It looks like we may not be able to guarantee two centers for you. What
do you want to do?
I'm starting to think that your fleet may actually be more useful to me
than your army. A possibility is Hol/Ruh S Hel-Kie and remove A Ruh.
OTOH, if you'll then have to hold in Kie just to survive, you'll just be
in the way. That's the problem - your units are most useful in areas
where they can't hold a center for you. Maybe we can eventually
relocate you to Swe, then you can advance to Bal/Bot.
I'm just thinking off the top of my head here - I'm open to suggestions.
Rod
From - Tue Feb 05 18:38:44 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
Well, I figured if Germany is going to help me then I might as well go
for it. OTOH, it looks like you'll be getting a build or two, so I
might not make much more progress regardless.
Rod
From - Tue Feb 05 18:38:54 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> Well, I figured if Germany is going to help me then I might as well go
> for it.
Strange choice, I thought it was fairly obvious that you'd be
able to take Scandinavia and Germany pretty much whenever it
took your fancy, it's crossing the stalemate line that's going
to be most akward for you. I'm surprised you want to make
an enemy of me before you've done that.
> OTOH, it looks like you'll be getting a build or two, so I
> might not make much more progress regardless.
Well, you could always just back off! It's not too late
to concentrate on that stalemate line yet you know. Hol was
going to be yours anyway. Continuing to attack me will
give you Norway OR Denmark, if you want to take them off
of Germany, and StP if you chose Denmark I guess. And either
way Germany's dead this year now. Unless you actively support
him I suppose.
I guess the question is, will Italy get a build this year?
Actually it doesn't look like he will to me, Tyr/Tri fight
Vie which can be supported by Gal. Ser can be supported by
Bud well enough. The only way Italy can build is if Keith
helps him. That build you were talking about in Mar could
be the last chance you get to take Tunis and cross that
stalemate line.
I can't see it mattering now though, if you'd still got a
unit in MAO, and could build F Mar this fall while moving to
West and moving Eng into MAO for backup, then you may have
been able to cross the stalemate line. Now, you've got a year,
maybe two before Austria is eliminated then Italy and I just
have to build the stalemate to keep you in the north west.
You're a long way from that stalemate line, no way you'll
cross it either at Tunis OR War/Mos before we have it
secured now.
Looks to me like you just decided to take the three way rather
than a shot at the solo. Well, it wasn't a great shot anyway.
Adam...........
From - Tue Feb 05 18:38:58 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Well, doesn't look like you'll get that build this year, unless
you work with Austria to take Rumania from me I guess. But
luckily for you France seems to have given up on trying to
cross the stalemate line, if he ever intended it, and he's
decided to take a couple of centers from me that he could
have had from Germany anyway! Weird decision, but I guess
it's his to make and it just makes the outcome I was
shooting at more likely than ever now.
At the end of this year (barring some strange activities
with France sacraficing centers to keep Germany alive or
you working with Austria) we'll be down to four players
and Austria will be on three centers. It shouldn't take
us more than a year to take three centers from Austria
if we work together and from then on I intend to start
setting draw.
Assuming that France doesn't, we'll have to build the stalemate
line against him, but he's so far from the Med or Boh/Sil/Pru/Lvn/StP
that this shouldn't be any trouble really.
Given that you are unable to get any builds in Austria this
year, and given what I've said above, it seems like you
may as well try to slow France down (although I don't
believe he'll be able to get to the lines in time either
way) and support Munich for me this fall. That would enable
me to use Berlin to try and save Kie, which is at least one
center center further from the lines for France.
If you don't then France will take Kie and Norway this year,
Denmark, Swe and probably Bre and/or Munich the year after
(while we hopefully finish off Austria) and StP the year
after that where he'll hit the stalemate line unless you
actively prevent me building one by taking some Russian
centers.
So, what else you gonna do with A Tyr?
Adam..........
From - Tue Feb 05 18:39:10 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Upon looking at the board, I believe that both our goals would be
> satisfied if you were to move War-Sil. This will allow me to keep four
> armies to defend my home centers against Italy for another year or two.
> Though France can take Norway and either Kiel or Munich, you can still
> get a build by keeping Rumania.
I'll keep it in mind, especially since I'm aware I'll probably only
have Mos open for a build after the fall, grrr, but Italy seems to
be convinced, and is quite convincing, that the three way IRF is
the best outcome for him and me. The best way to get that would
be to eliminate Germany and Austria as soon as possible and build
a stalemate line against France if he doesn't see that it's inevitable
right away.
Can you see a way that Italy and France could be setting up a two-way?
I find it hard to believe they trust each other enough that they'd
risk anything that didn't give them both a chance to change their
mind and take the three way right up until the end. Even if they are,
can you see a way I could stop it?
Adam........
From - Tue Feb 05 18:39:14 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> I'll keep it in mind, especially since I'm aware I'll probably only
> have Mos open for a build after the fall, grrr, but Italy seems to
> be convinced, and is quite convincing, that the three way IRF is
> the best outcome for him and me. The best way to get that would
> be to eliminate Germany and Austria as soon as possible and build
> a stalemate line against France if he doesn't see that it's inevitable
> right away.
Yes, Italy will tell you that. Don't believe him. As soon as Austria is
gone, who is Italy going to attack? You. Now that my fleet is
destroyed, he can move his fleets west. France isn't going to be able to
take Tunis now. He waited too long.
> Can you see a way that Italy and France could be setting up a two-way?
> I find it hard to believe they trust each other enough that they'd
> risk anything that didn't give them both a chance to change their
> mind and take the three way right up until the end. Even if they are,
> can you see a way I could stop it?
The only thing preventing you from being crushed between Italy and France
is me. Your southern boarder is protected as long as Austria survives.
You will have some chance to try to defend your northern boarder.
Italy and France have an easy two-way, but Italy needs to be able to take
and hold Warsaw and Moscow. Timing is critical for this. If Italy does
not make quick enough progress, then he won't be able to defend Warsaw
and Moscow before France gets there, and there is a good chance that
France can solo. If is thus very important to Italy that he defeat me
quickly. This way he can pump his armies into Russia to take Warsaw and
Moscow. You don't have enough armies to defend against him.
The best way to get into a three-way is to make Italy worried about
France's solo chances. If Italy can quickly get his hands on Warsaw and
Moscow, he doesn't have much to worry about.
I suggest playing along with Italy. Likely he will ask you to move
War-Gal. Tell him you'll do it, and let me know his moves so I can best
defend against him.
You're in no position to take any more of my centers. Is there some
reason that you would want Italy to have them and not me? He's not going
to be nice to you and include you in a draw as an act of charity, that's
for sure.
Austria
From - Tue Feb 05 18:39:16 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I am glad to see Mao-Nao :-) That's the way to do it. Now we have our DMZ
area empty, good. Let's keep it that way too. Another victory for you is
the German puppet. Was it hard to talk Tim in to it?
> I agree. Adam realizes that we can grind him out if we set our minds to it,
> so his only recourse it to distract us. Let's not allow him to deter
> us from our two-way.
I'd like to ask you to put fleet in StP. It is important signal to me. It
looks like you are going to get rid of Germany and Adam in north way
quicker than I am able to handle Keith and Adam in south. I'd hate the
situation where you are at 17 and we need to keep Keith alive to prevent
your solo.
Raine
From - Tue Feb 05 18:39:18 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
It all went well afterall. I was afraid of the possible supported attack
againt Bulgaria and that is why I wanted to support Bul instead of
Sev-Rum. I am so happy to notice that my support was not needed.
> Well, doesn't look like you'll get that build this year, unless
> you work with Austria to take Rumania from me I guess.
No, I won't work with Austria :-) It should be quite obvious. Even if
Keith would suggest to co-operate against you I wouldn't. No build for me
that is :-( Or are you willing to lend me Sevastopol? :-) Just for one
year? :-)
> But
> luckily for you France seems to have given up on trying to
> cross the stalemate line, if he ever intended it, and he's
> decided to take a couple of centers from me that he could
> have had from Germany anyway! Weird decision, but I guess
> it's his to make and it just makes the outcome I was
> shooting at more likely than ever now.
I think he is waiting for a good chance to build to Mar. Other alternative
is to go over the line from StP. It is obvious that you are losing StP and
then you need to keep Mos and War.
Germany is obviously a puppet. Tim made it sure that you lost your fleet.
> At the end of this year (barring some strange activities
> with France sacraficing centers to keep Germany alive or
> you working with Austria) we'll be down to four players
> and Austria will be on three centers. It shouldn't take
> us more than a year to take three centers from Austria
> if we work together and from then on I intend to start
> setting draw.
We have to keep in mind that Rod keeps Germany alive as long as Germany is
useful. You and Rod have to remember that Germany cannot build even if he
had more centers than units. That means, a perfect way to support Tim to
your centers -> you lose a center and Tim won't gain a unit. You should
(in case you cannot take centers yourself) try to give centers rather to
Tim than to Rod. I am sure you know this but I'm just reminding.
> Assuming that France doesn't, we'll have to build the stalemate
> line against him, but he's so far from the Med or Boh/Sil/Pru/Lvn/StP
> that this shouldn't be any trouble really.
Yes, we just need to be very careful.
> Given that you are unable to get any builds in Austria this
> year, and given what I've said above, it seems like you
> may as well try to slow France down (although I don't
> believe he'll be able to get to the lines in time either
> way) and support Munich for me this fall. That would enable
> me to use Berlin to try and save Kie, which is at least one
> center center further from the lines for France.
I am willing to support Mun hold if I can. I haven't thought of my moves
yet.
> If you don't then France will take Kie and Norway this year,
> Denmark, Swe and probably Bre and/or Munich the year after
> (while we hopefully finish off Austria) and StP the year
> after that where he'll hit the stalemate line unless you
> actively prevent me building one by taking some Russian
> centers.
I'd rather take some Austrian centers than yours naturally.
One important thing, Keith is a _very_ good tactician. So, think twice is
you want to move War-Gal for example. I wouldn't be surprised to see Keith
letting you to move to Gal and to keep War Austrian for one more year.
Raine
From - Tue Feb 05 18:39:19 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I have my preliminary orders in (with set wait) they include order Tyr S
Mun. I am not sure if that is a clever move though. Keith could cut the
support from Vie. Anyway, if I don't tell you otherwise then Tyr S Mun is
my order.
Would you be willing to support Ank-Bul? That is one option I have. In
order to get rid of Keith fast I'd need my armies in Balkan as fast as
possible.
Raine
From - Wed Feb 06 03:14:21 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> Was it hard to talk Tim in to it?
I think he just wants revenge against Russia - and I'm happy to oblige
him. :-)
> I'd like to ask you to put fleet in StP.
OK. That sounds reasonable.
> It looks like you are going to get rid of Germany and Adam in north way
> quicker than I am able to handle Keith and Adam in south.
I think you need to relocate your Turkish armies to the Balkans and
rotate F Bul to Bla and F Bla to Arm. I need to do some juggling as
well; if I want to use Germany's help then I have to figure out a way to
keep him alive without obstructing my advancement. It will take some
time, but all we need is persistence.
Rod
From - Wed Feb 06 03:14:26 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Strange choice
Choosing when to stab is always difficult for me - it's often hard to
tell whether earlier or later would be better.
> Looks to me like you just decided to take the three way rather
> than a shot at the solo.
Well, I guess you should be pretty happy about that then. ;-)
Rod
From - Wed Feb 06 03:14:24 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
Have you had a chance to look at the board? Maybe Hol S Ruh-Kie,
Bur-Mun is our best bet. Or we could stick with Bur S Ruh-Mun, Hol S
Hel-Kie and hope for the best. Nth S Hel-Den is also a possibility,
though I'd be loathe to pass up the sure thing in Nwy.
What do you think?
Rod
From - Wed Feb 06 03:14:38 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
It looks like I'm about to get a couple of builds this year, so if you
can make sure that Italy gets none, I'll make one of mine F Mar. It may
be too little too late, but this will probably be my last opportunity,
so I might as well give it a try.
Rod
From - Wed Feb 06 03:14:39 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> It looks like I'm about to get a couple of builds this year, so if you
> can make sure that Italy gets none, I'll make one of mine F Mar. It may
> be too little too late, but this will probably be my last opportunity,
> so I might as well give it a try.
I think you're a year too late. Now that my fleet is destroyed, Italy
will surely start moving west.
Austria
From - Wed Feb 06 18:29:16 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Once again I have made up a possible cause of friction between us :-)
Now I'd like to ask you to be sure you can move away from Paris. You need
it open to be able to build there. Our DMZ includes Mar and you are about
to get two builds. So, I'd like to ask you to make sure Par-whatever
succeeds. If you get three builds would you promise to honour our DMZ and
waive one build to leave Mar open?
> > I'd like to ask you to put fleet in StP.
>
> OK. That sounds reasonable.
Good, thank you.
> I think you need to relocate your Turkish armies to the Balkans and
> rotate F Bul to Bla and F Bla to Arm. I need to do some juggling as
> well; if I want to use Germany's help then I have to figure out a way to
> keep him alive without obstructing my advancement. It will take some
> time, but all we need is persistence.
We also have to remember that Keith is superior tactician. But the
bottomline is we have to be patient. In the end Germany and Austria are
going to collapse and then it becomes tricky to get rid of Russia but we
should be able to do it.
This is going to be interesting. I mean, 2way is better than 3way. 2way
has the glamour of being rare. BUT if one of us gets to major stalemate
line too fast then we have to settle for 3way. So we need to balance with
our advance so that we are there at the same time.
Raine
From - Wed Feb 06 18:29:18 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> Once again I have made up a possible cause of friction between us :-)
You're going to have to stop being so imaginative. :-)
> Now I'd like to ask you to be sure you can move away from Paris. You need
> it open to be able to build there.
I plan to build only F Bre and waive my other builds. I have no need of another
army at this time.
> Our DMZ includes Mar
I will not build in Mar.
> We also have to remember that Keith is superior tactician.
That's true, but it's not enough to save him.
> But the bottomline is we have to be patient.
I agree. No great heroics are required - we just have to follow through on our plans.
Rod
From - Wed Feb 06 18:29:19 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
>It looks like we may not be able to guarantee two centers for you. What
>do you want to do?
How about BAR-STP (to occupy the unit in NWY), HEL-DEN (NTH S) (which will
succeed unless Russia orders NWY-NTH in which case you get STP), and
RUH-KIE (HOL S) & BUR-MUN? I could end up with 0, 1 or 2 centers depending
upon what Russia decides to do. You gain at least 1 (Holland) and maybe
two (STP).
Tim
From - Wed Feb 06 18:29:24 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
> How about BAR-STP (to occupy the unit in NWY), HEL-DEN (NTH S) (which will
> succeed unless Russia orders NWY-NTH in which case you get STP), and
> RUH-KIE (HOL S) & BUR-MUN?
It's a little riskier than just forcing Nwy (two builds sure would be nice :-) ),
but if it works it gives us superior positioning. Getting your fleet into Den is
an attractive proposition. (It's more secure for you than being squished between
French and Russian armies, and it gives us future prospects in the Baltic region.)
I'll ponder the board some more this evening, but let's agree to go with your plan
unless I come up with something clearly better.
Rod
From - Wed Feb 06 18:29:33 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I have my preliminary orders in (with set wait) they include order Tyr S
> Mun. I am not sure if that is a clever move though. Keith could cut the
> support from Vie. Anyway, if I don't tell you otherwise then Tyr S Mun is
> my order.
Thanks. I doubt Vie will do any cutting, if it moved then
it couldn't be supported and Keith would risk Vie
being lost to Tyr and Tri.
> Would you be willing to support Ank-Bul? That is one option I have. In
> order to get rid of Keith fast I'd need my armies in Balkan as fast as
> possible.
Yeah, I can't see any good reasons why not so I'll get Rum
to support as requested.
Adam..........
From - Thu Feb 07 18:30:49 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
No more friction :-)
I'd like to ask your opinion if I should trust Adam. I would play in his
position so that Austria would fall before FI gets to stalemate line and
then prevent the solo and 2way and be included in 3way. Now I don't know
how Adam will play but there are moves IR might do together to get Austria
away quicker.
In fact I think there's nothing to lose if I tell you my plan. It wouldn't
be wise for you to slow me down and threaten to reduce your solo/2way
hopes to 3way/4way. I was thinking of asking Adam to support my move
Ank-Bla-Bul. I'd get an army quick to Balkans and the best part is that I
get to know if Adam is trustful.
> You're going to have to stop being so imaginative. :-)
Sorryy! :-) Thanks for the smiley.
> I plan to build only F Bre and waive my other builds. I have no need of
> another army at this time.
Ok, I like your plan.
> That's true, but it's not enough to save him.
That is true but he can slow me down enormously. BTW are you getting
messages from Keith/Tim/Adam? Tim is obviously talking to you 'cause you
got rid of the Russian fleet nicely.
Raine
From - Thu Feb 07 18:30:54 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I think we are doing fine now. We need to co-operate against Austria
'cause it seems that France is going to keep Germany alive as a puppet.
The sooner we get rid of Austria the sooner we have more one variable away
from the endgame.
> Thanks. I doubt Vie will do any cutting, if it moved then
> it couldn't be supported and Keith would risk Vie
> being lost to Tyr and Tri.
Keith gave a lot of good advise in the early days of gutsy. He also made
some good predictions of how things are going to happen. So we shouldn't
underestimate him. So, let's put it this way I wouldn't be surprised to
see Keith moving to Vie. I would be surprised if he is not talking to you
and trying to get you to co-operate with him.
> Yeah, I can't see any good reasons why not so I'll get Rum
> to support as requested.
I can see :-) But thanks for the support. I will think this support as a
signal if I am going to trust you in future or not. You have the choise of
working together with Austria but that would lead only to French victory
or to bigger draw.
Raine
From - Thu Feb 07 18:31:03 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Yes, Italy will tell you that. Don't believe him. As soon as Austria is
> gone, who is Italy going to attack? You.
Well, the theory is that he'd attack nobody, defend against
France and start setting draw of course. Surely Raine is smart
enough to see that attacking Russia would give France the solo,
Even if I didn't make it an explicit threat.
> Now that my fleet is
> destroyed, he can move his fleets west. France isn't going to be able to
> take Tunis now. He waited too long.
I agree here, his only real chance was last move and he used
it to attack me instead.
> Italy and France have an easy two-way, but Italy needs to be able to take
> and hold Warsaw and Moscow. Timing is critical for this. If Italy does
> not make quick enough progress, then he won't be able to defend Warsaw
> and Moscow before France gets there, and there is a good chance that
> France can solo.
Which is why I'm not convinced Raine would try, he's a fairly
conservative player - I think he'd take the three way rather than
risk losing to a solo.
> If is thus very important to Italy that he defeat me
> quickly. This way he can pump his armies into Russia to take Warsaw and
> Moscow. You don't have enough armies to defend against him.
If a race with France is his goal, surely he can see that I'd
gladly let France win that race rather than face elimation?
> The best way to get into a three-way is to make Italy worried about
> France's solo chances. If Italy can quickly get his hands on Warsaw and
> Moscow, he doesn't have much to worry about.
True, but I think you're underestimating how quickly France will
be able to rip through Germany and Scandinavia. Even if I fight
as hard as I can there rather than pulling back to a stalemate
line in Mos/War I'm massively outnumbered and overpowered, even
ignoring the German puppet.
> I suggest playing along with Italy. Likely he will ask you to move
> War-Gal. Tell him you'll do it, and let me know his moves so I can best
> defend against him.
He hasn't been very precice in what he's told me of his moves,
and he hasn't asked me to move War either, perhaps he fears
you'd move Gal out of the way and War would remain Austrian.
It's at least half a guess but I'd imagine he'll attack either
Vie or Ser with Tri/Alb or Tri/Tyr. Assuming I don't move
War-Gal you should be able to support yourself all round.
I have not and will not order War-Gal.
> You're in no position to take any more of my centers.
Well, maybe one but probably not even that.
> Is there some
> reason that you would want Italy to have them and not me? He's not going
> to be nice to you and include you in a draw as an act of charity, that's
> for sure.
If I'm included in a draw I'm under no illusion it will be charity
that gets me there, it'll be the threat of a French solo. As you
said, timing is everything there it's important that I'm in Mos
and War when the two of them come baring down on top of me. I
think I could do with an extra year or so at least of those
Austrian centers between me and Italy while France works his
way through Germany, so for now at least it seems we basically
agree.
Adam.............
From - Thu Feb 07 18:31:04 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> Choosing when to stab is always difficult for me - it's often hard to
> tell whether earlier or later would be better.
Certainly it's always easier in hindsight.
> Well, I guess you should be pretty happy about that then. ;-)
Yeah, I am really. Well, as happy as I ever am with a draw anyway.
Keith keeps warning me that you and Raine have a two-way draw
lined up but I'm sure I could swing that into a solo either one
of you if it looked like being eliminated anyway and I don't
think you two can trust each other that much. It's probably
worth you starting to worry about Spa/Mar now though, Raine
has no more need of his fleets in Syr/Adr/Bul and very little
need for the one in Bla. He'll not get any builds this year
but he will probably get three next year. The stalemate line
should be easy to build in War/Mos/Vie/Tyr but you and Italy
have a race to get units into the Med.
Adam.............
From - Thu Feb 07 18:31:11 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I think we are doing fine now. We need to co-operate against Austria
> 'cause it seems that France is going to keep Germany alive as a puppet.
Is he? He keeps making these strange choices now. I wonder which
center he thinks will be German at the end of the year. Denmark
is the most obvious I suppose. I guess he doesn't believe me
when I tell him I'm going to retreat and just let him have Germany
and Scandinavia over the next year while you finish Austria. Like
I need you to be able to risk taking War and Mos! I need France
knocking on War and Mos by the time Austria is eliminated.
> The sooner we get rid of Austria the sooner we have more one variable away
> from the endgame.
Yep, We should make a definate plan that sees Austria eliminated
at the end of next year. He'll be down to Vie/Bud/Ser assuming
he disbands Gal this year. You'll have Alb and Bul on
Serbia and Tyr/Tri. If I move War-Gal in the spring and
you take Serbia (making sure it can't retreat to Gre of course)
then we should be able to get Gal/Ser on Bud and Tri/Tyr on
Vie and force his elimination in the fall. Yeah, assuming
you do as you've indicated you will we should see Keith
eliminated next year.
> Keith gave a lot of good advise
Advice.
> in the early days of gutsy. He also made
> some good predictions of how things are going to happen.
Yeah, he was pretty good at that.
> So we shouldn't underestimate him. So, let's put it this
> way I wouldn't be surprised to see Keith moving to Vie.
I'd be pretty surprised to see that, he's already there!
I guess you mean Tyr. He might, I'm not all that worried
about Germany really, I'll probably lose it before the end
of the game but that's okay, we don't get extra points for
having more centers.
> I would be surprised if he is not talking to you
> and trying to get you to co-operate with him.
He wants me to move War-Sil so that he keeps four centers
and I still get a (re)build this year, assuming it goes
how he says it will with France. He wants me to tell him
what moves you have planned, but I'm obviously not going to
mention anything about Tyr, haven't said a word about Ank/Bul
and don't really know the rest so I've told him that you
basically haven't said anything. He did ask if you had
asked me to move War-Gal, and I told him that you hadn't
and that I wouldn't.
> > Yeah, I can't see any good reasons why not so I'll get Rum
> > to support as requested.
>
> I can see :-)
Really? If you wrong me now I can give France a solo in almost
no time and wouldn't hesitate to do so rather than be eliminated
so I think I'm pretty safe from you.
> But thanks for the support. I will think this support as a
> signal if I am going to trust you in future or not. You have the choise of
> working together with Austria but that would lead only to French victory
> or to bigger draw.
Working with Austria would do nothing but delay the inevitable,
I still think we'd end in FRI draw though I agree it would increase
the odds of a French solo slightly. I can't see the game ending
in anything other than FRI so I just want it over with now,
the quicker the better.
Adam.............
From - Thu Feb 07 18:31:20 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> Is he? He keeps making these strange choices now. I wonder which
> center he thinks will be German at the end of the year. Denmark
> is the most obvious I suppose. I guess he doesn't believe me
> when I tell him I'm going to retreat and just let him have Germany
> and Scandinavia over the next year while you finish Austria. Like
> I need you to be able to risk taking War and Mos! I need France
> knocking on War and Mos by the time Austria is eliminated.
My guess is that Germany is kept alive by France for some time. This is my
interpretation from what I have heard. I might be wrong though.
> > Keith gave a lot of good advise
>
> Advice.
's' and 'c' they are my problem :-) Thanks for correcting it. I mix up
those two letters often :-(
> I'd be pretty surprised to see that, he's already there!
> I guess you mean Tyr. He might, I'm not all that worried
> about Germany really, I'll probably lose it before the end
> of the game but that's okay, we don't get extra points for
> having more centers.
Yes, I meant Tyr. Sorry for that. You are right about the SC count.
> > > Yeah, I can't see any good reasons why not so I'll get Rum
> > > to support as requested.
> >
> > I can see :-)
>
> Really? If you wrong me now I can give France a solo in almost
> no time and wouldn't hesitate to do so rather than be eliminated
> so I think I'm pretty safe from you.
I meant RA co-operation against me. I am not going to fool you now. I
understand that you have the power to throw the game to France if you want
to.
> Working with Austria would do nothing but delay the inevitable,
> I still think we'd end in FRI draw though I agree it would increase
> the odds of a French solo slightly. I can't see the game ending
> in anything other than FRI so I just want it over with now,
> the quicker the better.
Well I can see the possibility where you delay my advance with Austria and
then France is already in stalemate line and we cannot knock Austria away
from the draw. That would be 4way instead of 3way.
Raine
From - Thu Feb 07 18:31:23 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
I think that the threat of a French solo can only go so far. France can
always pull back and let Italy take Warsaw and Moscow for a two-way.
I am trying to still get a part in the draw. I don't know if that is
realistic or not. Together I think we have a chance to stop them.
I would focus on Munich and let me deal with Italy. If you have Munich,
you have a key center that may get you in the draw. It is difficult for
France to pull back from Munich, but much easier to Italy to pull back
from Munich. Perhaps France and Italy can be maneuvered into situations
where it is not so easy for them to pull back and let the other complete
the two-way.
Austria
From - Thu Feb 07 18:31:27 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Would you be willing to support Ser-Bul with your F Rum? I am betting
that Italy will convoy Ank-Bla-Bul, accompanied by Bul-Gre, Smy-Arm.
Austria
From - Thu Feb 07 18:58:15 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
I have entered supports for Hel-Den and Ruh-Kie. Hopefully we have outguessed Russia. :-)
Rod
From - Thu Feb 07 18:58:17 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> I'd like to ask your opinion if I should trust Adam. I would play in his
> position so that Austria would fall before FI gets to stalemate line and
> then prevent the solo and 2way and be included in 3way.
He told me that's what he intends to do, and I think it makes sense for him.
> I was thinking of asking Adam to support my move Ank-Bla-Bul.
I suppose you might as well give it a try.
> BTW are you getting messages from Keith/Tim/Adam?
Keith just keeps telling me to stab you. He seems to say the same thing over and
over without actually contributing anything of value.
Tim wants me to keep him alive.
Adam thinks stabbing him was a dumb move - of course. :-)
Rod
From - Sat Feb 09 07:50:16 2002
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1910M Fri Feb 08 2002 20:00:00 +1300
Movement results for Fall of 1910. (gutsy.040)
Austria: Army Galicia SUPPORT Army Vienna.
Austria: Army Vienna HOLD.
Austria: Army Serbia HOLD.
Austria: Army Budapest SUPPORT Army Serbia.
France: Army Burgundy -> Munich. (*bounce*)
France: Army Edinburgh HOLD.
France: Fleet Barents Sea -> St Petersburg (north coast). (*bounce*)
France: Army Holland SUPPORT German Army Ruhr -> Kiel.
France: Fleet North Sea SUPPORT German Fleet Helgoland Bight -> Denmark.
France: Fleet English Channel HOLD.
France: Army Belgium -> Ruhr.
France: Fleet North Atlantic Ocean -> Norwegian Sea.
France: Army Paris -> Picardy.
Germany: Army Ruhr -> Kiel.
Germany: Fleet Helgoland Bight -> Denmark.
Italy: Army Ankara -> Black Sea -> Bulgaria.
Italy: Army Albania SUPPORT Army Trieste.
Italy: Fleet Black Sea CONVOY Army Ankara -> Bulgaria.
Italy: Fleet Syria -> Eastern Mediterranean.
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea SUPPORT Fleet Bulgaria (south coast) -> Greece.
Italy: Army Tyrolia SUPPORT Russian Army Munich.
Italy: Fleet Bulgaria (south coast) -> Greece.
Italy: Fleet Adriatic Sea SUPPORT Army Trieste.
Italy: Army Smyrna -> Armenia.
Italy: Army Trieste SUPPORT Army Tyrolia.
Russia: Army Sevastopol SUPPORT Fleet Rumania.
Russia: Army Munich SUPPORT Army Berlin -> Kiel. (*cut*)
Russia: Army Denmark SUPPORT Army Berlin -> Kiel. (*cut, dislodged*)
Russia: Army Berlin -> Kiel. (*bounce*)
Russia: Fleet Rumania SUPPORT Italian Army Ankara -> Bulgaria.
Russia: Fleet Norway -> St Petersburg (north coast). (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Warsaw HOLD.
The following units were dislodged:
The Russian Army in Denmark can retreat to Sweden.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Retreats for Fall of 1910.
The deadline for orders will be Sat Feb 09 2002 19:00:46 +1300.
From - Sat Feb 09 07:50:19 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Thanks for your support and congratulations you got two builds!
It seems that Germany is kept alive for some time :-| I'd suggest that you
build a fleet in StP south coast. South because it gives you the
opportunity to defend your northern border longer.
We have to prepare to see Vie-Tyr when Keith thinks it is time to give
some revenge to us (IR). I will support you to hold in Munich of course
but Keith might cut the support. If Keith removes army in Galicia then you
should move War-Sil and in case Keith did not cut the support we have
gained Munich to you :-) Well too many uncertainties but worth of trying.
Raine
From - Sat Feb 09 07:50:20 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
>I have entered supports for Hel-Den and Ruh-Kie. Hopefully we have
>outguessed Russia. :-)
Looks like we guessed well. Austria didn't even try to guess or perhaps is
playing the same role for Russia that I am playing for you.
It looks like you should get MUN and NWY this year, though. And, there
shouldn't be much difficulty pushing on to STP.
Tim
From - Sat Feb 09 07:50:21 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
I am not sure I understand what you are doing. Do you see that Italy is
going to take Sevastopol from you, and that he will get all of the
Austrian centers?
Austria
From - Sat Feb 09 07:50:24 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
I haven't been too active in the press since I failed to convince Russia to
side with me. But, as you can see, I have managed to come to some
agreement with France. It looks like you might have brokered a similar
deal with Russia. I'd like to suggest that you and I might do better if we
both worked against Russia. Then we might have a chance to combine our
forces and place ourselves on the stalemate line. I understand that
working with Italy may prove impossible and really it doesn't matter a
whole lot to me. But, I thought I would mention it just in case your
course was not 100% set.
Tim
From - Sat Feb 09 07:50:25 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
I seem to be running out of options. I am going to help France and
Germany against Russia. You can take over my centers as I leave them.
It would be nice if you could leave me some so I can keep my front line
troops, but of course this is up to you.
Austria
From - Sat Feb 09 07:50:28 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Okay, I'll help. I'll see if Italy will leave me a few centers to keep
up my front line troops.
Austria
From - Sat Feb 09 07:50:39 2002
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1910R Sat Feb 09 2002 19:00:46 +1300
Retreat orders for Fall of 1910. (gutsy.041)
Russia: Army Denmark -> Sweden.
Ownership of supply centers:
Austria: Budapest, Serbia, Vienna.
France: Belgium, Brest, Edinburgh, Holland, Liverpool, London, Marseilles,
Paris, Portugal, Spain.
Germany: Denmark, Kiel.
Italy: Ankara, Bulgaria, Constantinople, Greece, Naples, Rome, Smyrna,
Trieste, Tunis, Venice.
Russia: Berlin, Moscow, Munich, Norway, Rumania, Sevastopol, St Petersburg,
Sweden, Warsaw.
Austria: 3 Supply centers, 4 Units: Removes 1 unit.
England: 0 Supply centers, 0 Units: Builds 0 units.
France: 10 Supply centers, 9 Units: Builds 1 unit.
Germany: 2 Supply centers, 2 Units: Builds 0 units.
Italy: 10 Supply centers, 10 Units: Builds 0 units.
Russia: 9 Supply centers, 7 Units: Builds 2 units.
Turkey: 0 Supply centers, 0 Units: Builds 0 units.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Adjustments for Winter of 1910.
The deadline for orders will be Tue Feb 12 2002 10:25:55 +1300.
From - Sat Feb 09 16:08:06 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
It is good to hear from you.
> I seem to be running out of options. I am going to help France and
> Germany against Russia. You can take over my centers as I leave them.
> It would be nice if you could leave me some so I can keep my front line
> troops, but of course this is up to you.
Like I said earlier, if this is going to end in 3way I'd prefer FIA. FIR
seems to be more probable but if you are there to make it FIA I am more
happy about it. I assume you are going to disband Serbia. Am I right?
Raine
From - Sat Feb 09 16:08:10 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Like I said earlier, if this is going to end in 3way I'd prefer FIA. FIR
> seems to be more probable but if you are there to make it FIA I am more
> happy about it. I assume you are going to disband Serbia. Am I right?
No, I am disbanding Vienna. I will move Serbia to Rumania in the Spring.
I have no illusions that this game will end in a three-way. It looks
like you and France have an easy two way. I don't have many choices, so
I thought I might as well punish the person who most recently wronged
me. I might survive longer this way, if you leave me a few centers. You
should be able to push your troops past my centers and pick them up as
you need them.
Austria
From - Sat Feb 09 16:08:11 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> No, I am disbanding Vienna. I will move Serbia to Rumania in the Spring.
I have no objections to your plan. I'd love to get rid of Russian fleet in
south :-)
> I have no illusions that this game will end in a three-way. It looks
> like you and France have an easy two way. I don't have many choices, so
> I thought I might as well punish the person who most recently wronged
> me. I might survive longer this way, if you leave me a few centers. You
> should be able to push your troops past my centers and pick them up as
> you need them.
I understand you. I am willing to let you have your centers if there comes
an opportunity to do it. There will if you succeed to free the way for me
:-) Let's see th adjustments 1st and then we can make some plans to let
you get your deserved revenge.
Raine
From - Mon Feb 11 17:10:25 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
I'm not in a big hurry to secure Nwy. I can take it any time I want. I think our
biggest priority should be to advance armies into the heart of Russia. Tun was a
potential 18th center, but I ran through a bunch of scenarios, and it's a real long
shot. I'd like to try to leap-frog into War or Mos ASAP then suck up the leftover
stuff in between.
I'm thinking maybe Den-Bal, Nth-Den this season, then Bal S Den-Swe in the Fall.
Or maybe Den-Bal, Kie-Den, Nth-Ska this season. Or Edi-Den. Whatever. Please
let me know if you have any suggestions.
Rod
From - Mon Feb 11 17:10:29 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
Keith,
I ran through a bunch of scenarios and concluded that you're right - I'm too late
to take Tun. Even if I had moved to MAO and built F Mar, I probably wouldn't have
been able to secure it.
I think my best shot now is to hope Raine plays for a two-way and keeps Russia
occupied in the south. Unfortunately, you're likely to be a casualty in that case.
Rod
From - Mon Feb 11 17:10:33 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> I ran through a bunch of scenarios and concluded that you're right - I'm too
late to take Tun. Even if I had moved to MAO and built F Mar, I probably wouldn't
have been able to secure it.
>
> I think my best shot now is to hope Raine plays for a two-way and keeps Russia
occupied in the south. Unfortunately, you're likely to be a casualty in that case.
Thanks, as always, for the warm words. Good luck.
Austria
From - Mon Feb 11 17:10:35 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
It would be nice to be able to set up a convoy to LVN and leapfrog into
Russia, but with Russia's two builds I think that's unlikely to happen this
year. Your willingness to pass on Norway is nce, but I think you should
reconsider. If we order DEN-SWE and use your three fleets to take NWY
(perhaps by convoy), Norway will be forced to retreat to SKA where it could
be destroyed in the fall. Getting rid of a northern Russian fleet should
be a good thing.
Alternately, we could order DEN-BAL and KIE-DEN (NTH S) while you attempt
to take KIE. In the fall, I can use BAL to support DEN-SWE. There will be
no need to cover DEN -- it can be left vacant and in my control. You would
be able to take NWY and KIE while I pick up SWE and lose KIE. STP would
fall next year (MUN and BER will fall then, too, or perhaps the following
year), but it's unclear if we'd ever be able to manage a convoy to PRU or
LVN which we would need in order to get you WAR or MOS.
Of course, Russia is going to come under some pressure from Italy and/or
Austria. So, assuming he is able to put forth his best defense in the
north may not be the best way to go.
Tim
From - Mon Feb 11 17:10:37 2002
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1910B Tue Feb 12 2002 10:25:55 +1300
Adjustment orders for Winter of 1910. (gutsy.042)
Austria: Removes the army in Vienna.
Russia: Builds an army in Moscow.
Russia: Builds an army in St Petersburg.
France: Builds a fleet in Brest.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Movement for Spring of 1911.
The deadline for orders will be Fri Feb 15 2002 20:00:00 +1300.
