Fall 1909
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From - Sat Jan 26 19:14:23 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
> > Hmmm, an I/F. Certainly looked like a possibility, but the diplomacy did
> > not indicate it.
>
>I/F was a possibility, though not a certainty - but if Italy continues
>east while G/R conspire against me in the north, then surely I/F is my
>best bet, ja?
Absolutely. I had hoped, of course, that Italy would be moving west. But,
as long as you and Italy are cooperating, Russia is going to see the
potential for an IF two-way if neither of you manages a solo. I think it's
in his best interest to keep me alive and use my units to make sure you
don't push on to the stalemate line.
>Be careful to not have too much success against me - if France is no
>longer a threat to solo then Russia has little reason to keep you
>alive. OTOH, if you help me take Russian centers then I'll keep you in
>the game, and you can relocate to the stalemate line.
I considered trying to retreat to the stalemate line, but didn't think I
could really make myself vital to the line. Nor do I see it as beneficial
to help you into Russian centers unless I'm going to get some of them,
too. But, I don't really see how that would work. If you have a concrete
suggestion, I'd like to hear it. Chances are very good that I get squeezed
out eventually, if you think there is a way I can avoid that, please tell me.
Tim
From - Mon Jan 28 18:26:43 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Tim,
I think the season went quite well afterall from my point of view. There
was a need to cover Tunis but it turned out that there really wasn't.
> Well, I had indication that you had things worked out with Austria. And,
> that would mean you would be moving against France.
I am sorry that I repeat myself but where did you get this indication that
I was moving against France. I mean, someone is obviously fooling you.
> You are helping him by not moving against him. That you cannot deny.
I do not deny it. My interpretation is this: I made a threat and people
didn't take me seriously -> it was partly due to action made by others
that I 'help' France. I won't give any support to France in the battle you
can count on that.
Your moves with Russia seems to work against France :-) At least Rod
wasn't pleased to see them. Could you tell me how did Russia's move to Kie
work in your plan?
Raine
From - Mon Jan 28 18:26:45 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
> > Well, I had indication that you had things worked out with Austria. And,
> > that would mean you would be moving against France.
>
>I am sorry that I repeat myself but where did you get this indication that
>I was moving against France. I mean, someone is obviously fooling you.
I had indication from both you and Austria that a reconciliation was a very
real possibility. Austria was clear that you moving to cover Tunis was a
condition to this reconciliation. So, I inferred that you would be moving
to cover Tunis (which means fighting France). It appears to me that you
never intended to reconcile with Austria, so I think you were the one
fooling me.
>Could you tell me how did Russia's move to Kie
>work in your plan?
Why do you need to know? Or, are you just trying to make me suspicious of
Russia?
You may not have explicitly stated you would be covering Tunis, but that
was the spirit of what you said. And, now you're trying to play meddlesome
mind games. From my point of view, you are the player in this game to be
trusted least.
Tim
From - Mon Jan 28 18:26:46 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I think you are have a good situation in north eventhough you needed to
retreat. Even if GR works together against you (I don't know if they
do) you are stronger in there.
> No problem. :-)
I like this :-)
> Yes, things are going well. You made a good move - you can reclaim Smy
> and force Tri for a build. :-)
Are things going well with you too? I mean, I am not sure if you wanted
Russia to move like he did (your void support, your need to retreat etc).
You can count on peaceful western Med :-) I hope it helps you to
concentrate on northern issues.
> I'm curious - did you fool Austria into thinking you'd help him against
> Russia? I can't imagine why else he would've moved Ser-Rum, Rum-Ukr.
I was honest to Keith. I never lie, _never_ :-) I don't fool people,
why should I? They get mad and I don't want that. I told to Keith that
I'll leave Bulgaria open, I told him that I won't move or even defend
against you, so one cannot claim that I fooled Keith.
> > I think the next step we planned was Spa(sc)-Mao and after that we DMZ
> > Spa/Mar/Lyo/Wes/NAf/Pie/Tus/TyS/Por and when you move away from Mao (to
> > north) then we add Mao to DMZ.
>
> That sounds good, but we need to add Tun to the DMZ list. If you will
> be in Tun then I'd like to stay in Spa - that's why I ordered Spa H this
> turn, because I though you would move to Tun. If you agree to DMZ Tun
> then I will happily move Spa-MAO this turn and MAO-NAO the next. Is
> that equitable?
Yes, we can add Tunis to DMZ as well. Is it OK that I _might_ move to
Tunis while you are in Spain but after you move to Mao Tunis is added to
DMZ? I have no desire to move to Tunis but I want keep the right to move
there as long as you are in Spain. I don't want to be called liar :-)
> Also, may I ask that you not build any fleets? Your navy is quite
> sufficient to secure all the non-DMZ waters, and if you are to take the
> 17 centers on your side of the line then you need more armies. I would
> be quite nervous if you were to build fleets while I have all my forces
> committed against GR in the north.
I don't know about builds yet. It is highly likely that I'd build an army
if I had a chance :-)
> It appears he has found a friend, so he should be able to survive a
> while longer.
So you had an agreement of something and Adam let you down? I am not
surprised. I don't think I am even near the best players in here but I
think Adam has played poorly every now and then. He changes side too
often and isn't reliable enough for my taste. If GR are working together I
wonder what was the intention of Ber-Kie? That is confusing.
I hope you don't mind of my void support to MUN :-) You said Munich is
falling to Russia and as you can see my relations with Russia are not too
good so...
Raine
From - Mon Jan 28 18:26:48 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Thanks for sharing the information.
> Looks fairly good, though I have to finish talking to Austria about
> supports and whatnot, he has F Eas remember, and A Rum/A Ser play
> quite a roll in this fight too.
They did play quite a roll :-) I think you surprised Adam here :-)
> Italy says that he's going to leave himself open to attack from
> you, I certainly don't think he'll be able to do anything about
> it if you don't back off. Kieth is saying that he expects Italy
> to continue to fight him and even to lose supply centers though
> he says he'll try to organise it so that I take the supply centers
> from Austria rather than having Italy do so in return for my attacking
> Italy. That's cool since I was attacking Italy anyway!
I said to Adam too that I won't defend against Rod as long as AR is
against me in south. Adam didn't bother to reply :-(
> I don't think Raine will be much of a problem, whether this is
I like to treated as 'no problem' :-)
> > Italy has more centers right now, but Steve is the better
> > player, and my first inclination is to string Raine along
> > a little more rather than risk letting Germany off the hook.
> > What are your feelings on this?
>
> Steve is a better player, but Steve has clearly lost interest
> or motivation or time or something - he's barely writing any
> press at all and he's in a bad way. As you pointed out, his
> home centers are vunerable and when he has to disband the rest
> of his centers will collapse. I don't honestly believe either
> Raine is going to be much hassle to you or that Steve will be
> let off the hook whichever move you decide on. You'll look
> less threatening for the solo if you leave Italy alone for
> a while, but that kind of smoke-and-mirrors probably won't
> wash with this crowd anyway.
Is there a term underdog or something that I can use according to above
discussion? Could I say that I am the underdog?
Raine
From - Mon Jan 28 18:26:50 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> No, I did not change my moves. They were set. I anticipated your moving
> against France. I see now that you are instead poised to take Treiste,
> without anything I can do about it. Do you plan to take Trieste?
...and you told Tim that I am moving against France :-| Tim is angry to me
now! He thinks I am the lowest scum in ther world. This hits hard to my
AGI plans. I tried to ask from Tim of the co-operation between GR but I
got zero answer :-( At first, I got no intention to even think about
Trieste 'cause I believed we could turn this into AGI but now when Tim
seems to be non-cooperative I have to think of Trieste again.
> > I can support you to Sev. Then you should get two of Russia's home
> > centers. I will naturally kick Russian army from Smyrna. I believe it is
> > good overall if you take two centers from Russia and Russia will most
> > likely take a center or two (maybe even three) from Germany (we cannot
> > prevent that).
>
> What's your plan? Are you going to move against France or not? If
> you're going to attack me, why would you want to support me to Sevastopol?
I don't have a plan. My plan was to support you to Sevastopol and ask you
to take Mos or War. I'd take Smyrna back. Then we had worked as I have
talked for a long time ago: you take all Russia and FG goes against
France. It just seems that AGI is hard to get on now. Tim used the word
'meddlesome' when he described my actions. I had to check that from
dictionary :-) It was a funny word in a way but tells something of Tim's
thought of me too :-|
Why I want to support you to Sev?
Because I don't have high hopes of more than 3way in this game. Well, I'll
take solo if I have a chance but the probabilities are not too high. So, I
was playing for AGI for a moment but it seems more probable that this will
end in FI and A or R triple at the moment. I prefer working with you than
with Adam. You have always been able to say why you want something and the
reasons have been understandable to me. Adam has been more like
weathercock. Although Tim is telling stories that makes you look like a
not good potential ally to me I want to work with you against Adam rather
than the otherway around. So I am ordering Bla S Rum-Sev, ok?
Raine
From - Mon Jan 28 18:26:51 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
I will accept your support to Sevastopol. I understand the long-term
consequences of this, but at this point, I feel like little more than
your puppet. I have limited choices. I made my moves anticipating that
you would move against France. You didn't, and now I am screwed.
Austria
From - Mon Jan 28 18:26:54 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
> You didn't, and now I am screwed.
What do you mean?
Raine
From - Mon Jan 28 18:26:57 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi, just another thought. You mentioned your solo chances. You only
have a chance if you can get a center across the stalemate line. A
French center would virtually guarantee a solo. You could also try for
Munich, but you would have to be sure of holding onto Warsaw and Moscow.
Perhaps you can do that, I don't know.
France also has a good chance to win still. If he gets either Warsaw or
Moscow, he can win. A number of armies are required to defend these
centers, so perhaps it is not such a bad idea to keep me around for a
while, anyway. If there is a power vacuum in the former Russia, I'd
imagine that I will have a lot to say about who takes those centers, even
if you start chipping away at my home centers.
Austria
From - Mon Jan 28 18:27:00 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> What do you mean?
If I hadn't moved against Russia, you wouldn't be able to take Trieste.
Austria
From - Mon Jan 28 18:27:02 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Italy won't attack France if you antagonize him. Be nice to Italy,
stroke his ego. Maybe he will attack France at some point.
I expect that I will be fighting to defend my home center from Italy for
some time. However, we still talk. Italy says he doesn't think that AGI
is a possibility now, because it sounds like he doesn't think that he can
work with you. I don't believe much of what Italy says, but I think he
can still be useful to you, so you might not want to burn any bridges.
Austria
From - Mon Jan 28 18:27:05 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Italy won't attack France if you antagonize him. Be nice to Italy,
>stroke his ego. Maybe he will attack France at some point.
>
>I expect that I will be fighting to defend my home center from Italy for
>some time. However, we still talk. Italy says he doesn't think that AGI
>is a possibility now, because it sounds like he doesn't think that he can
>work with you. I don't believe much of what Italy says, but I think he
>can still be useful to you, so you might not want to burn any bridges.
News travels fast. I didn't say anything too offensive. I just told him I
didn't like some of the games he was playing. Nothing that should burn any
bridges.
For the record, he asked how Russia's move to Kiel played in the plan for
R/G cooperation. He was obviously trying to instigate something between
Russia and myself. I called him on it.
I admit I am very bad at ego stroking. And, that ego stroking might have
been very successful here.
Tim
From - Mon Jan 28 18:27:08 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Part of an Italian press to me:
>Your moves with Russia seems to work against France :-) At least Rod
>wasn't pleased to see them. Could you tell me how did Russia's move to Kie
>work in your plan?
>
>Raine
The bugger is trying get me mad at you. I can only guess that he is doing
the same with you (trying to get you mad at me, that is). He apparently
didn't like it much when I called him on it, or so it has been relayed to
me through Austria.
Tim
From - Mon Jan 28 18:27:09 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany and Austria in 'gutsy':
> At least one of you, maybe both, described Raine to me as stubborn. It
> appears to me that he is set in his course and is not thinking about other
> options.
>
> Do you think ARG has any hope (from a purely tactical standpoint) against IF?
I think that we stand some chance in the north at least, France will
be facing some resistance there. The south is more akward, certainly,
perhaps if we put enough pressure on France, take SC's from him, he'll
be forced to take Tunis and Italian centers to avoid shrinking.
It's hard to say what will happen while I'm still not sure of Austria's
intentions though. If he orders Ukr - War or Mos I'll be in a lot of
trouble and if one of FI doesn't solo they'll presumably be in a draw
with just one of us three. I'm doing best on SC counts to be in that
position, but my units are spread out all over.
Adam..........
From - Mon Jan 28 18:27:15 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Thanks for doing just as promised.
I do my best. France isn't saying quite the same thing to me at the moment
though. :)
> For the fall, I'd like to suggest: BEL-BUR (MUN S), HOL-NTH (NWT, DEN & SKA
> S), and FIN S NWY. France can retake Belgium, but you would take NTH and I
> would be able to retreat to Holland so that we both are even in the
> area. If France decides to hold NTH, I keep Belgium, you keep HOL and KIE
> and you are net +1.
Sounds like a reasonable plan, I wish France hadn't moved to Eng though,
I could really have done with that build and I'd be very lucky indeed
to keep Smy, let alone Mos and War this year now.
> I suspect strongly that the Austrian will be very mad at Italy for not
> moving against France. In fact, it looks clear to me that what we are
> facing is an I/F.
Will he be annoyed enough that he'll put Urk in Rum rather than War or
Mos though, that's the question? Will he support Smy to hold, and would
even that actually be enough? I'm glad you're making suggestions that
are tactically sound and sensible in the north because I'm having to
worry about the south all the time. I can't seem to concentrate on
any area without the others falling apart in this game.
Adam..........
From - Mon Jan 28 18:27:16 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> It seems I have been tricked. Italy told me he would move against France
> if I attacked you. Sadly, this did not happen. I will lose Trieste this
> turn. I am sure Italy is offering to support you to Rumania. I don't
> know how we will be able to work together to defeat him. He has too many
> units in the area now.
He does have a lot of units, all we can do is hope that we can get France
to attack him from behind. My diplomacy is working on that, but we'll have
to last at least until next spring before any moves come from France I think
which could be tricky. It'll definately require us both to work together
and actually do what we say we'll do rather than jumping into Ukr for
a laugh, heh.
Firstly, Raine hasn't been in touch with me yet at all this phase
so he hasn't offered me Rumania yet, or given me any indication what
his moves will be at all. I guess that he'll want Smy dislodged though.
He can't be sure what you'll do with Eas so to be sure of taking Smy
he'll have to use Aeg and two of Ank Con and Ion. That's quite a few
units and it might give us some hope.
I guess we should both talk to him, both pretend we're happy to work with
him rather than each other and both see if we can find out what he intends to
move. If we can suss that, we're in with a fighting chance that France will
eventually rescue us I think.
Adam......
From - Mon Jan 28 18:27:18 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
I can tell you right now what Italy will do, and he hasn't even told me.
He will take Smy with Con and Ank, and he will dislodge Eas with Aeg and
Ion. He will use Tyr, Ven and Adr to take Trieste, and he will move
Gre-Bul/sc. The only question is what he will do with the Black Sea.
I have asked France for help for some time, including now, and he gives
no indication that he is interested in the least.
I had no idea that you were going to work with Germany. (And I have no
idea if you are actually working with Germany, but at least Germany
things you are.)
France was close to a solo, and you were helping him get it. I think my
move to Ukr was necessary. I see that Italy is still having fantasies
about his own solo, or else he wouldn't have attacked me. Italy's moves
don't make sense to me. I don't know why he did not defend against France.
Austria
From - Mon Jan 28 18:27:19 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> The bugger is trying get me mad at you. I can only guess that he is doing
> the same with you (trying to get you mad at me, that is). He apparently
> didn't like it much when I called him on it, or so it has been relayed to
> me through Austria.
He hasn't contacted me at all as yet, though I was about to write to
him and see if I can sort out the mess down in the south to some
degree or another.
Adam.........
From - Mon Jan 28 18:27:20 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hey Raine,
Nice moves, I'm impressed at how quickly you've managed to get so
many units into Turkey. So long as France doesn't give you any
trouble you're looking good. I can't imagine how you got Keith
to move into Ukr and leave himself quite so open at the same
time.
So I guess you've convinced me that I'm not going to take Turkey
back after all. I still think that in a moral and decent world,
one where manners and honesty and ettiqute counted for anything
that at least two Turkish supply centers would be mine, but I
guess that I don't really like that world much or I'd go play
Dungeons and Dragons instead of Dip.
At least I started trying to do something about the French solo
threat, that's got to be a bonus, no?
So what can we do? I guess that the three way you were talking
about makes about the most sense now, unless you think you're
up for a solo of your own now. That means eliminating Austria
between us as quickly as possible so you can help me take
care of France. I'll be able to take Germany's final centers
when you've got some fleets against France, I can't really
do anything except support Germany until then since he's the
only player with enough Northern Fleets to do anything.
Is there any plan? I guess you'll dislodge A Smy anyway and
I can rebuild that elsewhere, you'll be taking Tri this fall
no doubt and maybe we can take Rum between us. Depending on
what Austria does with A Ukr that will leave Austria on
two or three centers. Guess you're planning to protect Bul
with Gre. Rebuilding A SMy in War will get us the rest of
Austria next year, at least enough that you can put the
new builds on France anyway.
What would you like me to do?
Damn, three way draws are SO BORING. Still, better than someone
else's solo I guess.
Adam............
From - Mon Jan 28 18:27:21 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I can tell you right now what Italy will do, and he hasn't even told me.
> He will take Smy with Con and Ank, and he will dislodge Eas with Aeg and
> Ion. He will use Tyr, Ven and Adr to take Trieste, and he will move
> Gre-Bul/sc. The only question is what he will do with the Black Sea.
I wonder what the chances of him moving it to Sev are? If they're
small then I could move Sev->Arm and disband Smy before rebuilding
it as a fleet in Sev. F Sev AND F Arm would make things look pretty
different. Even if he did move to Sev, it would leave him without
the Black Sea.
> I have asked France for help for some time, including now, and he gives
> no indication that he is interested in the least.
I was a little surprised to see F MAO move to Eng rather than back
into the Med. I guess they are closer than I first thought. Do we
really think that either one will sit back and let the other solo
though?
> I had no idea that you were going to work with Germany. (And I have no
> idea if you are actually working with Germany, but at least Germany
> things you are.)
> France was close to a solo, and you were helping him get it. I think my
> move to Ukr was necessary.
There wasn't a lot I could do with Steve, he was incommunicado basically
which didn't leave a lot of choice. I didn't want to broadcast my moves
for everyone to hear last spring, as I'm sure you can understand, but
the move to Ukr was quite different to the idea of giving me Austrian
centers rather than let Italy get them. Perhaps you should have talked
about the French Threat some more.
Still, what's past is past.
> I see that Italy is still having fantasies
> about his own solo, or else he wouldn't have attacked me. Italy's moves
> don't make sense to me. I don't know why he did not defend against France.
Italy's moves haven't made sense to me since about 1903, but he's
in a better situation than you or I so I guess he must be doing
something right. We can try and move Ukr to Rum while Rum moves
to Sev. At least we can try and slow Italy down for a while. Tri
will be able to retreat to Bud and the disband can come from Eas
rather than your main core of armies. Italy has managed to protect
his assets very well indeed, even made some progress but he
hasn't beaten us quite yet, and I still think that eventually
France will come. What choice does he have, even with all of
Germany and Scandanavia through to StP he needs Tunis to
solo, and Italy knows this too.
Adam..........
From - Mon Jan 28 18:27:26 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> That's true, but the moves you suggested are pretty close to what I
> probably would've done anyway, so I might as well give you the benefit
> of the doubt.
Excelent, Germany will be finished in no time in that case. I guess
I have no choice but to work with Italy again to finish Austria
off in about the same time period now. We can call the three way
draw then, or you can start to fight between yourselves for the solo
I suppose.
> Excellent! It also helps secure a stable line between us, so you don't
> have to worry about me sneaking too far ahead. ;-) And if everyone
> else thinks we're at odds, all the better. :-)
> Plus, you could use a build or two to counter the Austrian threat.
Yeah, things are pretty icky in the south, yet again. Seem that
every time I concentrate my efforts on either cost of my country
the other goes all wrong. Russia really is like playing two
powers rather than one.
> However, there's one little wrinkle: What if Nwy retreats to StP?
Damn, and every plan I ever come up with, especially the last minute
ones has a flaw. I guess it's not that important, I'll be able to
evict him easily enough from Norway and Moscow, a fleet can't
really go anywhere. Probably it's good for you since it will
stop me building F StP(nc) making it even easier for you to
claim Scandanavia and Germany from me after Germany's dead. Heh.
> I hope you won't be disappointed if I don't move against him immediately
> - I'm not too eager to have enemies all around if it turns out you've
> sided with Germany after all. OTOH, if I get a build, a fleet in Mar
> could be quite useful. ;-)
It's going to be a much harder battle to win after the builds, Italy
will get a new unit from Tri, he's already got as many fleets as you
have and he'll need to worry about Austria or Russia less and less
as he wins the fight down there. Keith sounds resigned to losing
the fight already and I'm wondering if I can prop up Keith some more
or if the move to Ukr means I have no choice but to help Italy
out now and take as many of Keith's centers as I can. If I do have
to do that, and it's my favourite option at the moment, Italy will
no doubt grow even more quickly. I won't be disapointed, indeed I
understand if you decide to be cautious, but as far as I can see
it'll be an easier battle for you the more quickly you start it.
Adam..........
From - Mon Jan 28 18:27:36 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> Are things going well with you too? I mean, I am not sure if you wanted
> Russia to move like he did (your void support, your need to retreat etc).
I certainly did not expect to be dislodged from Bel. Russia now claims
that he's really working for Germany's elimination, and he had tried to
explain his plan to me but had a problem with his email. Frankly, I
don't believe him. Regardless, I plan to recover Bel.
> Yes, we can add Tunis to DMZ as well. Is it OK that I _might_ move to
> Tunis while you are in Spain but after you move to Mao Tunis is added to
> DMZ? I have no desire to move to Tunis but I want keep the right to move
> there as long as you are in Spain. I don't want to be called liar :-)
You are certainly justified about wanting to be in Tun while I am in
Spa. Likewise, if you are in Tun then I will want to be in Spa. I will
move Spa-MAO, and I hope that you will give me the chance to prove that
my intentions are true by leaving Tunis demilitarized. If you feel that
you need to cover Tun that's fine, but then I'll want to move MAO back
to Spa, and we'll be right back where we started. If you choose to
simply remain in Ion (which I believe is sufficient defense for Tun,
especially since you're getting a build this year) then I promise to
move MAO north next season and our DMZ is complete.
Rod
From - Mon Jan 28 18:27:38 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Excelent, Germany will be finished in no time in that case. I guess
> I have no choice but to work with Italy again to finish Austria
> off in about the same time period now.
That's probably in your best interests. You need an ally in the south.
It might not really matter who the ally is, but if Austria is going
kamikazee on you then Italy is the only option.
> We can call the three way
> draw then, or you can start to fight between yourselves for the solo
> I suppose.
I know that everybody disparages draws, but I don't think I'd be
disappointed about getting "only" a three-way in a highly-rated game.
Of course, that doesn't mean I'd turn down a solo if one came knocking.
;-)
> However, there's one little wrinkle: What if Nwy retreats to StP?
> I guess it's not that important, I'll be able to
> evict him easily enough from Norway and Moscow, a fleet can't
> really go anywhere.
I think you're right - an army would be devastating, but a fleet is
merely a nuisance - especially if Germany is quickly reduced to a
non-entity.
Rod
From - Wed Jan 30 19:03:46 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Russia has been the one with habit of changing side. I used the term
weathercock to describe his behaviour to Keith. At the start he was
willing to form RIA and he was the first to kick A to the balls... ...and
later he was working with A ... ...and to be continued.
> I certainly did not expect to be dislodged from Bel. Russia now claims
> that he's really working for Germany's elimination, and he had tried to
> explain his plan to me but had a problem with his email. Frankly, I
> don't believe him. Regardless, I plan to recover Bel.
When Russia had had problems with email I have gotten three or four
copies of the same message from him. This would be the 1st time of this
kind of problems for him ...
> You are certainly justified about wanting to be in Tun while I am in
> Spa. Likewise, if you are in Tun then I will want to be in Spa. I will
> move Spa-MAO, and I hope that you will give me the chance to prove that
> my intentions are true by leaving Tunis demilitarized. If you feel that
> you need to cover Tun that's fine, but then I'll want to move MAO back
> to Spa, and we'll be right back where we started. If you choose to
> simply remain in Ion (which I believe is sufficient defense for Tun,
> especially since you're getting a build this year) then I promise to
> move MAO north next season and our DMZ is complete.
Do you feel the need to move back to Spa if I move an army to Tunis. I
admit that it is not very likely but I need to know. I agree with you
above statement and I hope all these talks are not needed and you move
Spa(sc)-Mao next.
Raine
From - Wed Jan 30 19:03:48 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
It is so nice that you write to me :-)
> So I guess you've convinced me that I'm not going to take Turkey
> back after all. I still think that in a moral and decent world,
> one where manners and honesty and ettiqute counted for anything
> that at least two Turkish supply centers would be mine, but I
> guess that I don't really like that world much or I'd go play
> Dungeons and Dragons instead of Dip.
This IS a moral and decent world, one where manners and honesty and
ettiqute counts :-)
> At least I started trying to do something about the French solo
> threat, that's got to be a bonus, no?
Yes, but you are now trying to talk yourself back to French ally
right? You should continue on your way against France by building a fleet
in north. I am going to dislodge your army in Smyrna and you can disband
it and rebuild it to Stp. That's the way to do it.
> Is there any plan? I guess you'll dislodge A Smy anyway and
> I can rebuild that elsewhere, you'll be taking Tri this fall
> no doubt and maybe we can take Rum between us. Depending on
> what Austria does with A Ukr that will leave Austria on
> two or three centers. Guess you're planning to protect Bul
> with Gre. Rebuilding A SMy in War will get us the rest of
> Austria next year, at least enough that you can put the
> new builds on France anyway.
Austria is far from dead! Even if I would take Trieste Austria could
simply disband his fleet. That would leave him up to four centers. I am
honest with you Adam: I cannot trust you enough to try to co-operate with
you to take Rumania from Austria. Or would you take my support to Sev-Rum
if I promise it to you?
> What would you like me to do?
First you could tell me what was your intention when you moved to
Kie? That is an important army in there :-)
Rod tells me that he don't believe in your stories why you helped
Germany. So play it wisely up in north. If your goal is to work towards
FIR then you should disband the army in Smyrna and rebuild it to Stp if
possible. Also you should make it sure that Rod is not getting SC's
fast. Otherwise he wipes out Germany and Scandinavia.
> Damn, three way draws are SO BORING. Still, better than someone
> else's solo I guess.
That's my priority too. We have to face the fact that 3way is the most
likely outcome. Before last moves what did you expect the outcome would
be?
Raine
From - Wed Jan 30 19:03:51 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> Hi, just another thought. You mentioned your solo chances. You only
> have a chance if you can get a center across the stalemate line. A
> French center would virtually guarantee a solo. You could also try for
> Munich, but you would have to be sure of holding onto Warsaw and Moscow.
> Perhaps you can do that, I don't know.
I do understand that 3way is the most likely outcome of gutsy. I know that
to take solo out of this there has to happen a lot. I am relistic and I do
understand that in order to keep my solo hopes alive I need a friend from
you or Adam. I repeat myself once again and tell you that we have manage
to do more togheter than I have with Adam. I don't have high hopes of you
taking my support to Sevastopol even if you say so. What you should do is
to make sure you can build enough. I think it is wise to dislodge your
fleet now and you could build it to army. Also if you take two Russian
home centers you need three open home centers to be able to build. So let
me know how you see the future of your fleet to be.
> France also has a good chance to win still. If he gets either Warsaw or
> Moscow, he can win. A number of armies are required to defend these
> centers, so perhaps it is not such a bad idea to keep me around for a
> while, anyway. If there is a power vacuum in the former Russia, I'd
> imagine that I will have a lot to say about who takes those centers, even
> if you start chipping away at my home centers.
I understand both French chance to win and your dominance on War/Mos in
endgame. I'd like to know how we handle your fleet in south. It is useless
in there but will you have space where to build armies? Well, of course
you can build it later when you have empty home SC's. Let me know your
wish in this please.
Raine
From - Wed Jan 30 19:03:53 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Tim,
> I had indication from both you and Austria that a reconciliation was a very
> real possibility. Austria was clear that you moving to cover Tunis was a
> condition to this reconciliation. So, I inferred that you would be moving
> to cover Tunis (which means fighting France). It appears to me that you
> never intended to reconcile with Austria, so I think you were the one
> fooling me.
I am sorry if you feel that I am fooling you. That is not what I am
doing. That is your interpretation.
> Why do you need to know? Or, are you just trying to make me suspicious of
> Russia?
My apologies. I was just curious. No need to tell me...
> You may not have explicitly stated you would be covering Tunis, but that
> was the spirit of what you said. And, now you're trying to play meddlesome
> mind games. From my point of view, you are the player in this game to be
> trusted least.
'meddlesome' :-) I checked it from dictionary. But I am sad to hear that I
am the least trusted player :-( Can you see my point in last seasons
diploming and moves? What comes to spirit of my sayings, I'd like to think
that I am able to make a spirit intentionally but I am afraid that is out
of my abilities. I'd say this is more like the old situation where clever
people doesn't get enough information and they create huge interpretations
out of little information.
Back to gutsy:
Russia is trying to talk his way out of last set of moves to
France. France is obviously unhappy of the outcome of the moves but if
they manage to co-operate then you are in real danger.
Raine
From - Wed Jan 30 19:03:55 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> It is so nice that you write to me :-)
Best to stay in touch.
> This IS a moral and decent world, one where manners and honesty and
> ettiqute counts :-)
Almost sounds like you're offering some Turkish supply centers
back to me, I doubt that's what you meant though.
> Yes, but you are now trying to talk yourself back to French ally
> right?
Keeping people guessing, yeah. Seems you and France are talking
more than I'd thought too so I guess keeping people guessing was
the right move too.
> You should continue on your way against France by building a fleet
> in north. I am going to dislodge your army in Smyrna and you can disband
> it and rebuild it to Stp. That's the way to do it.
Doing that would leave the south less protected from you. There's
a delicate balance here to protect myself from both you and France
of course. The three way draw will require me to be sat in the
middle equally able to hold off France and you. Depending on
what Germany and I do this year I may find it more useful to
build something to keep you out of Sev, for instance, but
you can be sure that I'll be keeping as much of an eye on
France as I am on you.
> Austria is far from dead! Even if I would take Trieste Austria could
> simply disband his fleet. That would leave him up to four centers. I am
> honest with you Adam: I cannot trust you enough to try to co-operate with
> you to take Rumania from Austria. Or would you take my support to Sev-Rum
> if I promise it to you?
I kinda guessed that would be the way we took Rumania, it's fairly
obvious all your units except Bla are going to be busy, and you're
not going to want to give up Bla so using it to support me into
Rum would be the only way.
> First you could tell me what was your intention when you moved to
> Kie? That is an important army in there :-)
Well, the moves Germany and I made were suggested by Germany,
including the move to Kie. The idea was that the gain made by
Germany in Bel (we were hoping for no F Eng, everyone thinks
France is mad not to have tried to break the stalemate like
and take advantage of your turned back) would be passed
along to me so that I could build F StP(nc) basically. Unforunately,
from Germany's point of view at least (I always had in mind
that these moves could work either way) he did move to Eng
so Bel can be recovered.
> Rod tells me that he don't believe in your stories why you helped
> Germany.
Well, the truth is that I was thinking of two plans at once.
I did genuinely send some press to him explaining the plan
to decieve Germany, but I mispelled signon so it didn't get
through, but I had no intention of deciding ultimately between
Germany and France until this fall.
> So play it wisely up in north.
I have to play wisely everywhere this year, it's a tricky
balance.
> If your goal is to work towards
> FIR then you should disband the army in Smyrna and rebuild it to Stp if
> possible. Also you should make it sure that Rod is not getting SC's
> fast. Otherwise he wipes out Germany and Scandinavia.
He could wipe out Germany and Scandinavia, though if I were
him I'd realize I could do that at any time and push all my
new units to breaking over the stalamate line and taking
Tunis first. I think this is your real worry, as well it
should be. Taking Germany and Scandinavia would still be
a fairly slow process too, France wouldn't get all the builds
and Russia is a lot closer to Scandaninavia than France is.
> That's my priority too. We have to face the fact that 3way is the most
> likely outcome. Before last moves what did you expect the outcome would
> be?
I was just hoping to keep things fluid so that the outcome
wasn't decided yet. Keep lots of players in, try to make
the balance more equal, try and move slowly back to a
situation where we were all equally likely to solo rather
than three destined to draw. Guess I'm still not good
enough at that particular skill though. Basically I was doing
what I usually try to do when all other things are equal and
side with the small guy to keep the powers balanced.
Adam...............
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:05 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> That's probably in your best interests. You need an ally in the south.
> It might not really matter who the ally is, but if Austria is going
> kamikazee on you then Italy is the only option.
Yeah, I think he realizes he made a mistake though, and my
instinct is usually to side with the small guy so as to try
and keep the game balanced. I think it's probably too late
for all that now though, time to just draw-whittle.
> I know that everybody disparages draws, but I don't think I'd be
> disappointed about getting "only" a three-way in a highly-rated game.
Yeah, the only times I've seen anything other than a draw is
when most of the players just get bored and stop talking at
all. Pretty easy to just send off one note a season and
they do what they're told from lack of interest then. A
well-won draw feels better than that kind of given-away solo.
> I think you're right - an army would be devastating, but a fleet is
> merely a nuisance - especially if Germany is quickly reduced to a
> non-entity.
It's the army comming in from the south that's going to be
trouble. Hopefully I can convince Austria that he'll be
better using that army to defend his homeland from Italy.
We'll have to see.
Raine tells me that you don't believe my 'excuse' about
the moves last season. I knew that would be a problem but
I hope you're genuine when you say that the moves you'd
need to do are similar enough that I get the benifit of
the doubt.
Adam........
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:09 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
I'm sorry I came across so strong in my last message. I can understand
your desire to stick with the I/F. It certainly puts you in a very strong
position. And, it doesn't really hurt me a whole lot (though it would have
been nice to see MAO head south instead of move to ECH) in the short term
as long as Russia stays a cooperative neighbor. Long term, I think I/F
cooperation makes it very likely that I will eventually get squeezed out,
either between France and Russia to get the draw down to three or between
you and France to get the draw down to two. Of course, there's also the
danger that AGR will see the two-way coming and attempt to throw the solo
one way or the other.
That's where your choice may come back to haunt you. We were relying upon
hints from you that you would move against France. From our point of view,
you tricked us (even if you were not explicit) or misled us, or simply
didn't come through when we needed you. So, right now you have three
powers who you have recently alienated who likely will have the power to
throw the game to your ally. France is just pressing on with his attack;
he's not playing any games, just a straightforward offensive.
Anyway, I'm not upset that you chose France, I just wish I had known
beforehand, it might well have affected how I chose to move. Knowing that
I/F were coming, I might have tried to retreat back to a stalemate line
where I would have a better chance of eventually being included in a three-way.
I can certainly see why you did it as you did. Having Russia and Germany
cooperating to stall your ally must be a very pleasant sight. Seeing
Austria move to UKR instead of facing to defend you must also be quite
pleasing. You've played it well, no doubt. But, those who you have played
probably aren't as pleased as you are. Do you see what I mean?
Tim
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:11 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Tim,
> I'm sorry I came across so strong in my last message.
It is ok. One peace of info may not have reached you: I explicitly told to
Austria and Russia that I won't defend against France. It might be that I
didn't told you about it but Keith and Adam they knew about it.
> I can understand
> your desire to stick with the I/F.
These are your words not mine. I am not in IF.
> It certainly puts you in a very strong
> position. And, it doesn't really hurt me a whole lot (though it would have
> been nice to see MAO head south instead of move to ECH) in the short term
> as long as Russia stays a cooperative neighbor. Long term, I think I/F
> cooperation makes it very likely that I will eventually get squeezed out,
> either between France and Russia to get the draw down to three or between
> you and France to get the draw down to two. Of course, there's also the
> danger that AGR will see the two-way coming and attempt to throw the solo
> one way or the other.
I think it is always possible to talk about 3way 'cause it is the most
common outcome I guess. But it is way too early to tell who are in there.
That 2way talk is not needed as we have still 5 players left. Also I find
it hard to see 3 out of 5 to prevent the 2way. Two way draws are so rare.
> That's where your choice may come back to haunt you.
If my choise was to not defend France then I have to tell you that it was
made before you came to gutsy.
> We were relying upon
> hints from you that you would move against France. From our point of view,
> you tricked us (even if you were not explicit)
But I explicitly told Austria and Russia that I won't defend against
France. I am not going to talk about this anymore.
> throw the game to your ally. France is just pressing on with his attack;
> he's not playing any games, just a straightforward offensive.
Maybe you should start to think who is your main opponent if France is
pressing like that.
> Anyway, I'm not upset that you chose France, I just wish I had known
> beforehand, it might well have affected how I chose to move. Knowing that
> I/F were coming, I might have tried to retreat back to a stalemate line
> where I would have a better chance of eventually being included in a three-way.
I am upset that you had no idea about my commitment to not defend against
France. Didn't you talk about it with Austria or Russia?
> I can certainly see why you did it as you did. Having Russia and Germany
> cooperating to stall your ally must be a very pleasant sight. Seeing
> Austria move to UKR instead of facing to defend you must also be quite
> pleasing. You've played it well, no doubt. But, those who you have played
> probably aren't as pleased as you are. Do you see what I mean?
I see your point. I also see that you have missed some info and you are
upset to me. I still see that you shouldn't blame just me, if you want to
blame me fine I hope it makes your life easier. Do you think it is my
fault that you invited Russia to Kiel? Do you think it is my fault that
Russia is talking of RIF 3way draw? Do you think it is my fault that
Russia is also aiming at RIF? Am I the one and only to blame?
Raine
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:13 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I do understand that 3way is the most likely outcome of gutsy. I know that
> to take solo out of this there has to happen a lot. I am relistic and I do
> understand that in order to keep my solo hopes alive I need a friend from
> you or Adam. I repeat myself once again and tell you that we have manage
> to do more togheter than I have with Adam. I don't have high hopes of you
> taking my support to Sevastopol even if you say so. What you should do is
> to make sure you can build enough. I think it is wise to dislodge your
> fleet now and you could build it to army. Also if you take two Russian
> home centers you need three open home centers to be able to build. So let
> me know how you see the future of your fleet to be.
I don't see my fleet as particularly useful now. If you dislodge it, I
would only be able to retreat to Syria, and there is little I could do
with it there. If I kept it you would just destroy it in the Spring. I
plan to disband it.
> I understand both French chance to win and your dominance on War/Mos in
> endgame. I'd like to know how we handle your fleet in south. It is useless
> in there but will you have space where to build armies? Well, of course
> you can build it later when you have empty home SC's. Let me know your
> wish in this please.
I am not worried about not having enough space to build. I see this as
the least of my problems.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:15 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> It's the army comming in from the south that's going to be trouble.
Yes, that was quite a move he pulled off - though it seems silly for him to move
against you when he has to worry about Italy.
> Raine tells me that you don't believe my 'excuse' about
> the moves last season.
Sure, I tell Raine what he wants to hear - and if there's some truth to it, all the
better. ;-)
> I hope you're genuine when you say that the moves you'd
> need to do are similar enough that I get the benifit of
> the doubt.
Yes, the moves that you suggested are probably what I would've done anyway.
Rod
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:16 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> Russia has been the one with habit of changing side.
Yes, he's been bouncing around quite a bit - and hasn't really gotten anywhere.
> Do you feel the need to move back to Spa if I move an army to Tunis.
No, I would not be nervous about an army in Tun.
> I hope all these talks are not needed and you move
> Spa(sc)-Mao next.
It's good for us to talk and understand each other, and I anticipate that everything
will work out just fine. :-)
Rod
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:19 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
Adam tells me he's going to snatch Swe, Kie, and Mun from you this season. Maybe he's
just yanking my chain, but consider that if it works he'll get two builds (even if
Austria takes War or Mos), giving him a good position to ensure his own survival
while whittling you out of the draw.
I still have hopes of making use of a German lackey, so if your goal is simply to
survive till the end, maybe we should work together. I will not attack you (except
to reclaim Bel), and I hope that you cover Swe and tap Kie.
Rod
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:20 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
>Adam tells me he's going to snatch Swe, Kie, and Mun from you this
>season. Maybe he's just yanking my chain, but consider that if it works
>he'll get two builds (even if Austria takes War or Mos), giving him a good
>position to ensure his own survival
>while whittling you out of the draw.
>
>I still have hopes of making use of a German lackey, so if your goal is
>simply to survive till the end, maybe we should work together. I will not
>attack you (except to reclaim Bel), and I hope that you cover Swe and tap Kie.
I'm going to stick with Russia this turn. If he does take what he tells
you he will, I'll be your lackey. But, I'm going to give him the chance to
come through for me.
If he does stab me, he will be ordering FIN-SWE and NWY will be left
unsupported. I'd suggest to you that it would be a good idea to order
NTH-NWY (NWG S). If Russia is being straight with me, it won't matter what
you do with NTH, if Russia is being straight with you, you'll take Norway
and I'll be able to retreat to STP. Which would be a good first step in my
lackey service.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:21 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> It's good for us to talk and understand each other, and I anticipate that
> everything will work out just fine. :-)
Me too :-)
It looks like AGR is forming against us. At least this is what I am
hearing between the lines. If AGR is real then we need to concentrate on
getting Russia to our side. I believe Adam is now playing for FIR 3way but
you never know...
I got some good news for you :-) I hear talks from folks where they say
that if I continue in FI they'll give the solo to France :-) That should
make you happy as I am not able to attack you and I don't have the will
to broke our DMZ.
BTW, how would you react if you realize that you sent a mail to someone
else than you meant? No, don't get worried as far as I know your mails
have been in the right box. I ask because I did the mistake once and now
there are some claims that there has been these mail hassles again (not
me this time :-) .
BTW, have you played with Tim in press games before? I know I could check
this from Alain Tesio's wonderful pages but if you could save me from that
effort please. I haven't played with any of gutsy members before.
Raine
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:23 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I like the fact that we are talking again.
> Best to stay in touch.
That's the key to success.
> Keeping people guessing, yeah. Seems you and France are talking
> more than I'd thought too so I guess keeping people guessing was
> the right move too.
Sometimes it is a good strategy.
> I kinda guessed that would be the way we took Rumania, it's fairly
> obvious all your units except Bla are going to be busy, and you're
> not going to want to give up Bla so using it to support me into
> Rum would be the only way.
Ok, I'll think about it :-) Keith, of course would like to see Bla S
Rum-Sev. I believe that Keith is thinking of taking a center from
you and maybe he asks you to support his Ukr-Rum but don't count that
he'll make that move.
> Well, the moves Germany and I made were suggested by Germany,
> including the move to Kie. The idea was that the gain made by
> Germany in Bel (we were hoping for no F Eng, everyone thinks
> France is mad not to have tried to break the stalemate like
> and take advantage of your turned back) would be passed
> along to me so that I could build F StP(nc) basically. Unforunately,
> from Germany's point of view at least (I always had in mind
> that these moves could work either way) he did move to Eng
> so Bel can be recovered.
Did you really believe that France is not moving to Eng? I have been told
that you knew it.
> He could wipe out Germany and Scandinavia, though if I were
> him I'd realize I could do that at any time and push all my
> new units to breaking over the stalamate line and taking
> Tunis first. I think this is your real worry, as well it
> should be. Taking Germany and Scandinavia would still be
> a fairly slow process too, France wouldn't get all the builds
> and Russia is a lot closer to Scandaninavia than France is.
But you don't have more units in there than France.
Raine
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:25 2002
Broadcast message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany in 'gutsy':
I haven't received any e-mail for about 8 hours because of a problem with
my ISP's mail server. I'm not ignoring (intentionally) anyone.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:30 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> I believe Adam is now playing for FIR 3way but
> you never know...
Germany thinks Adam is on his side but Adam claims his best bet is FIR.
So Adam is lying to either us or Germany.
> I got some good news for you :-) I hear talks from folks where they say
> that if I continue in FI they'll give the solo to France :-)
I think we're still a long way from anybody winning, but if a French
solo is what everybody wants I'll be happy to accept. ;-)
As we try to consummate FI I'm sure there will be lots of talk of
throwing the game. That's the best way to break a two-way. Regardless,
I think our DMZ gives us a good chance at a two-way, even if the others
try to interfere.
> BTW, how would you react if you realize that you sent a mail to someone
> else than you meant?
It seems that has happened to a few people in this game. :-) I'd
probably tell the unintended recipient that of course I'm negotiating
with everyone, but what I arranged with *him* is what I'll really do.
;-)
> BTW, have you played with Tim in press games before?
No, I don't think so.
Rod
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:31 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Adam,
Rod tells me that you are intending to take a bunch of centers from me. Of
course, I understand that is what you would tell him. But, I've submitted
the orders we agreed to: all my fleets support HOL-NTH. I'm counting on
you for support of Norway.
Without trying to sound antagonistic, I'll mention that if you do stab me,
I'll become France's puppet. And, since Norway will be unsupported, France
will likely get that while I retreat to STP. Sorry, I never know how much
of this type of thing to say and I trust it really wasn't necessary at all
here.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:34 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Ok, I'll think about it :-) Keith, of course would like to see Bla S
> Rum-Sev. I believe that Keith is thinking of taking a center from
> you and maybe he asks you to support his Ukr-Rum but don't count that
> he'll make that move.
I suggested Ukr-Rum and he basically just replied
in a depressed and resigned tone saying it was all
over. Anyway, I've ordered Sev-Rum, if the support
is there then great.
Adam............
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:36 2002
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1909M Wed Jan 30 2002 20:00:00 +1300
Movement results for Fall of 1909. (gutsy.036)
Austria: Army Ukraine -> Warsaw.
Austria: Army Vienna -> Tyrolia. (*bounce*)
Austria: Fleet Eastern Mediterranean SUPPORT Russian Army Smyrna. (*cut, dislodged*)
Austria: Army Trieste SUPPORT Army Vienna -> Tyrolia. (*cut, dislodged*)
Austria: Army Rumania -> Sevastopol. (*bounce*)
France: Army Burgundy SUPPORT Army London -> Belgium.
France: Army Edinburgh -> Yorkshire.
France: Fleet Norwegian Sea -> Norway. (*bounce*)
France: Army London -> English Channel -> Belgium.
France: Fleet North Sea -> Holland. (*bounce*)
France: Fleet English Channel CONVOY Army London -> Belgium.
France: Army Picardy SUPPORT Army London -> Belgium.
France: Fleet Spain (south coast) -> Mid-Atlantic Ocean.
France: Army Paris SUPPORT Army Burgundy.
Germany: Army Belgium -> Burgundy. (*bounce, dislodged*)
Germany: Army Munich SUPPORT Army Belgium -> Burgundy. (*cut, dislodged*)
Germany: Fleet Skagerrak SUPPORT Russian Fleet Holland -> North Sea. (*void*)
Germany: Fleet Norway SUPPORT Russian Fleet Holland -> North Sea. (*void*)
Germany: Fleet Denmark SUPPORT Russian Fleet Holland -> North Sea. (*void*)
Italy: Army Ankara SUPPORT Army Constantinople -> Smyrna.
Italy: Army Venice -> Trieste.
Italy: Fleet Black Sea -> Rumania. (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Aegean Sea -> Eastern Mediterranean.
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea SUPPORT Fleet Aegean Sea -> Eastern Mediterranean.
Italy: Army Tyrolia -> Vienna. (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Greece -> Bulgaria (south coast).
Italy: Fleet Adriatic Sea SUPPORT Army Venice -> Trieste.
Italy: Army Constantinople -> Smyrna.
Russia: Fleet Holland HOLD.
Russia: Army Smyrna HOLD. (*dislodged*)
Russia: Army Berlin -> Munich.
Russia: Army Finland -> Sweden.
Russia: Army Kiel SUPPORT Army Berlin -> Munich.
Russia: Fleet Sevastopol -> Rumania. (*bounce*)
The following units were dislodged:
The Austrian Fleet in the Eastern Mediterranean can retreat to Syria.
The Austrian Army in Trieste can retreat to Budapest or Serbia or Albania.
The German Army in Belgium can retreat to Ruhr.
The German Army in Munich can retreat to Ruhr or Silesia or Bohemia.
The Russian Army in Smyrna can retreat to Syria or Armenia.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Retreats for Fall of 1909.
The deadline for orders will be Fri Feb 01 2002 03:43:45 +1300.
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:40 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> Yes, that was quite a move he pulled off - though it seems silly for him
> to move against you when he has to worry about Italy.
I'm not entirely sure what he was hoping for with the move to War,
just to prolong the agony I guess.
> Yes, the moves that you suggested are probably what I would've done anyway.
Except for taking Norway it seems. Well, that works well for me I guess,
I can build F StP now and take Norway while you take Hol next year.
It's the move to MAO which is a pain, Wes would have made it so
much easier for you to take Tunis next year. Still, I can understand
you didn't trust me.
My plan now has to be to get Austria and Germany eliminated as
quickly as possible then start setting draw. Hopefully you and
italy will be too scared of the other soloing to eliminate me
as well.
Adam........
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:41 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Bla - Rum? Well I guess whatever works for you. I have only one
plan, one option now which is to get into that RFI draw. Clearly
that means eliminating Germany and Austria as quickly as possible
and I'm sure that France and you can see now that this is the
goal I'm concentrating on. Germany should be gone by the end
of next year if France doesn't support him for any reason
(he said he'd be Frances puppet now, so I guess that's possible)
Austria has five centers still. We should be able to get
Rumania and War. Hopefully you can take at least one other
center this year. I think Austria will be eliminated the
year after that.
In the mean time, you really are going to have to defened
against France. It's Tunis that is his center across the
stalemate line, it's your responsibility to make sure
Tunis stays Italian. My plan remains to get down to three
countries as quickly as possible.
Adam........
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:44 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Master in 'gutsy':
END OF YEAR STATEMENT.
Well, Tim appeared and having a Germany who replied to press
was nice. He convinced me that I did need his fleets to hold
back France, and if I could also support Austria I might be
able to keep the game fluid enough that I could make that
comeback and eventually solo. As usual: balance the powers,
if all else is equal support the little guy.
Then Austria moved against me. I think that he thinks it
was a mistake, but he didn't have much choice but to continue
the attack and I can't afford to have Italy and Austria
fighting me at the same time in the south while I'm having
a hard battle against France in the north. I think the
game crystalized, it's no longer fluid, I've gotta try
and get into that draw.
This means eliminating Germany and Austria as quickly as
possible. Ideally before France crosses the stalemate
line but that'll be up to Italy, and I think Italy has
already left it too late. I think this game will end
in a three way draw as I threaten to throw a solo to
Italy or France if they don't both set draw.
Adam.........
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:45 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hummm, I was about to disband my A Smy when I noticed that I
don't have enough open supply centers to rebuild it. I've
pretty much got no choice but to retreat it and use it
to support Sev. Probably I'll move it into Sev if you
support Sev to Rum, is that okay?
Adam.........
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:46 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
Rum - Sev? Wow I'm glad I didn't move to Arm in the end.
If France doesn't solo then I guess one of us will be in
a draw with France and Italy, and the other won't. What odds
do you give these results?
France Solo: 30%
Italy Solo:5%
FIA Draw: 20%
FIR Draw: 45%
That's about the odds as I see 'em.
Adam.........
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:47 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Master in 'gutsy':
EOY 1909 -- Germany
When I took over the position, I saw my hopes of survival to be very slim
if Russia could not be convinced to cooperate with me. If I could count on
Italy to move west and Russia to cooperate, I thought my chances of getting
into a draw were pretty good.
Even with the spring cooperation from Russia, things were not looking so
good when Italy did not move against France. It is not surprising that
Russia stabbed in the fall to try to strengthen his position enough to be
included in an IFR three-way (though I think he will fail). I am now
reduced to being France's puppet with little or no hope of surviving to the
end.
It is curious to me that France did not dislodge me from Norway. He knew
that if Russia was stabbing me then Norway was there for the taking and my
retreat to STP would put a damper on Russian activities in the
north. Also, if Russia and I managed to cooperate in the fall, it did not
matter what he did with NTH.
Anyway, on to puppetdom.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:50 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
I think it was a mistake for you not to take Norway. But, you probably
thought I was blowing smoke and that Holland may well have been supporting
Belgium.
I think I will keep DEN and NWY. If you take Ruhr in the spring, you
should be in position to take both Munich and Holland in the fall if I
order DEN-KIE.
If you see something better, let me know. But, I'm all yours.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:51 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Without trying to sound antagonistic, I'll mention that if you do stab me,
> I'll become France's puppet. And, since Norway will be unsupported, France
> will likely get that while I retreat to STP. Sorry, I never know how much
> of this type of thing to say and I trust it really wasn't necessary at all
> here.
Sorry Tim, I did mean to try and keep France at bay when I first
made the agreement with you but Austria's moves in the spring
forced a rethink. I was trying to keep the game open, fluid,
supporting the little guy is usually my plan if all else goes
wrong. Unforunately it's become apparent that the best result
I can hope for now is a three way IFR. Obviously if I'm aiming
at that then I have to try and eliminate A and G as quickly
as possible in the hope I'm still large enough to fight for a
place in the draw. If Austria had done as he'd said he would
last spring then we'd still be working together. No hard feelings
huh?
Adam.........
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:52 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
>No hard feelings huh?
None that would extend beyond the game. As far as the game does, I'm going
to do what I can to try to make sure you aren't able to establish the
position you hope to against I/F. I'd rather see them to a two-way than
help you into the draw after you took away any chance i had of participating.
I just commented to one of the observer that I think you have gone
backwards as a result of the stab. You get two new Russian units, but you
lost 4 or 5 friendly German units. Meanwhile, France gained 2 friendly
German units.
And, I don't know how you hope to hold the German supply centers over the
next couple of years. France was generous in not take Norway (and allowing
me a retreat to STP). Maybe he will continue to be generous and let you
into the draw.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:54 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
> I think it was a mistake for you not to take Norway.
In retrospect, that would've been ideal - but I wanted to be *certain* of reclaiming Bel.
> I think I will keep DEN and NWY.
I wonder if F Den and A Sil would be better? You might be able to get the army
into Lvn and wreak some havoc. But I don't have time to really study the board
right now, so I don't know....
> But, I'm all yours.
Excellent! < Evil, maniacal laugh >
Rod
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:55 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Except for taking Norway it seems.
I figured that if you're really with Germany then I needed to be sure of reclaiming
Bel, and if not then you're better off if Nwy doesn't retreat.
> I can build F StP now and take Norway while you take Hol next year.
I haven't really looked at the board yet, but that sounds reasonable.
> It's the move to MAO which is a pain, Wes would have made it so
> much easier for you to take Tunis next year.
True, but I expected Raine to continue pushing east, so I figured I could afford to
delay in the south while there was uncertainty in the north.
> My plan now has to be to get Austria and Germany eliminated as
> quickly as possible then start setting draw.
Yes, I think that's your best bet.
Rod
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:56 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
It looks like things are still going well, though Russia's builds will make him a
challenge to eliminate.
Congratulations on your build! I trust that it will not be a fleet. :-)
Rod
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:57 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> Rum - Sev? Wow I'm glad I didn't move to Arm in the end.
> If France doesn't solo then I guess one of us will be in
> a draw with France and Italy, and the other won't. What odds
> do you give these results?
> France Solo: 30%
> Italy Solo:5%
> FIA Draw: 20%
> FIR Draw: 45%
So, you moved Sev-Rum. I am sure that Italy offered to support us both.
You can see that I am under a lot of pressure, and I needed supply
centers to defend myself. You're successful enough to handle the
inconvenience for a little while. There is no way we can work together
against Italy. What is there we can do? I mean we can work together
defensively, but Italy is too powerful for us to gain any supply centers
from him right now.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 30 19:04:58 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
I don't understand your moves. You can easily get a three-way draw. FIR
is a sure thing. But I thought you had higher ambitions? If you have a
strong France and Russia, you'll have no chance. That's why I thought
you were serious about keeping me around. Oh well.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 30 19:05:00 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
> > I think I will keep DEN and NWY.
>
>I wonder if F Den and A Sil would be better? You might be able to get the
>army into Lvn and wreak some havoc. But I don't have time to really study
>the board right now, so I don't know....
Well, study up. You could be right. But, I think with a sure build in STP
I'll want to have the unit in Norway.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 30 19:05:01 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
I suppose it was too much to hope that Russia would stick by me. I think
he made a bad play: he gained two Russian units, but he lost 4 or 5
friendly German units while France gained 2 friendly German units.
I think I had little hope of doing anything without Russian cooperation, so
I think I had to give him a chance to come through. Now I'm back to the
puppet role I would have been in had France and Russia cooperate for the
whole year.
Anyway, I'm taking off against Russia in hopes of denying him a place in
the draw as he has denied me a place. I was thinking about keeping DEN and
NWY. But, keeping the army in SIL might prove more bothersome to Russia
especially if you are also inclined to go after Russia. I understand is
you think Italy should be the primary recipient of your wrath. But, please
let me know so I can better consider my options for removals.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 30 19:05:02 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
First I am sorry that I attack you. I think you had made the same decision
if you were in my position.
> I don't understand your moves. You can easily get a three-way draw. FIR
> is a sure thing. But I thought you had higher ambitions? If you have a
> strong France and Russia, you'll have no chance. That's why I thought
> you were serious about keeping me around. Oh well.
Of course I have higher ambitions. I was counting on different moves by
you. I thought you'd moved Rum-Ser and Ukr-Rum (even with support from
Russia). I was obviously wrong.
About three way draw: If you figure out the way how to make this a FIA
three way I am all ears. I mean we have had a good relationship through
out the game. That is why I'd love to see you in three way draw rather
than Adam.
Finally, I understand that it ain't clear that this will be a 3 way
draw. Many things can change.
Raine
From - Wed Jan 30 19:05:04 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> About three way draw: If you figure out the way how to make this a FIA
> three way I am all ears. I mean we have had a good relationship through
> out the game. That is why I'd love to see you in three way draw rather
> than Adam.
I'm sorry, but you have taken advantage of me one too many times. I
don't have anything left to give. You've sucked me dry.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 30 19:05:05 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Anyway, I'm taking off against Russia in hopes of denying him a place in
> the draw as he has denied me a place. I was thinking about keeping DEN and
> NWY. But, keeping the army in SIL might prove more bothersome to Russia
> especially if you are also inclined to go after Russia. I understand is
> you think Italy should be the primary recipient of your wrath. But, please
> let me know so I can better consider my options for removals.
I would keep Den and Sil. You will need units that are the most useful
to France if you have any hopes of his keeping you alive. Russia is
going to build two units this turn.
You can tell France that you will move Den-Kie and support Bur-Mun if he
is willing to let you keep Den and Berlin for a turn or two. I think he
will probably accept. He should be able to get Nwy, Mun, Hol and perhaps
even Kiel in one turn. Who would pass that up?
With Italy's non-interference, there is no reason for France not to
attack Russia now.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 30 19:05:06 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
I am obviously going to be spending my time defending against Italy. The
longer I delay my collapse, the longer until you have to start defending
your centers against Italy.
You may feel that you won't need my cooperation. However, Germany is
obviously very upset at your moves, and his motivation is to get back at
you. He is willing to do whatever France wants him too. You can see
that you cannot hold onto Hol, Kie or Mun if France and Germany worked
against you.
If you were to let me keep Warsaw, that would be cool. It would be one
more unit I could use against Italy. I have a feeling that you will want
to concentrate your units in the North, where the real danger is. I
don't know what agreement you have with France, but he is in a much
better position to attack you than he is to attack Italy.
It is obvious to me that the agreement between France and Italy is for a
two-way draw, and we all should be concerned about that.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 30 19:05:13 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Master in 'gutsy':
Austria's EOY statement for 1909
I'm not sure that I did the right thing this year. I certainly
underestimated the cooperation between France and Italy. I believed
Italy when he told me that he would move against France, and I left
Trieste vulnerable as a result.
What I lost in Trieste, I gained in Warsaw. Had I not taken Warsaw, I
would surely be crushed between Italy and Russia. Now it is not so
clear. Russia fooled Germany into eseentially giving up Kie, Mun and Swe
when Germany need only have lost one. Russia could have build armies in
Warsaw and Moscow, and it would have looked bad for Austria.
Now, however, Russia's future is not looking quite as bright. France
will probably attack Russia soon. I can hold out against Italy for a
short while. I doubt it will be long enough. If France smells a victory
he may well move a fleet south in the Fall. Wishful thinking perhaps. A
two-way draw between France and Italy is a clear and present danger.
There is little I can do against that. I have to hope that France is
more ambitious.
Italy would have been smart to support Russia to Rumania this turn.
Russia would get another build, but Italy could take the centers from
Russia quickly. It seems like Italy's best bet would be to try to get
Austria eliminated as quickly as possible, and then there would be no
barrier between him and the Russian centers.
Equally, France wants to defeat Russia quickly to have a stab at those
same Russian centers. He only needs Warsaw or Moscow for the win.
Hopefully he will see that his best chances in doing so involve me. It
seems like he would have seen this some time ago, yet he has still not
moved anything against Italy.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 30 19:05:14 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
I had overlooked the fact that I could use SIL to support BUR-MUN, I for
some reason was only thinking about SIL going east. Keeping DEN and SIL
might well be the best choice. What two centers would you have me land in
come year end?
I know you need to look things over.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 30 19:05:15 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
Hi, just another friendly reminder that whatever ambitions you might have
are strengthened the longer that Austria stays alive. I know that you
know this, but I have been surprised that you have not moved anything
against Italy.
I imagine that you will attack Russia now with help from the remnants of
Germany. No matter if you see Tunis or Warsaw as your 18th center, you
won't be able to get them if Austria is eliminated too quickly. I can
survive only a short time until Italy is able to get all of his armies
into position.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 30 19:05:16 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
> I had overlooked the fact that I could use SIL to support BUR-MUN
Good idea! :-)
> Keeping DEN and SIL
> might well be the best choice. What two centers would you have me land in
> come year end?
Just retreat to Ruh and Sil and we can figure out the rest in the Adjustments phase.
I'll ponder the map more this evening or tomorrow morning.
BTW, I'm always happy to entertain suggestions from my lackeys. If you would enjoy
actively planning out ways for me to win, go for it! Also, let me know what *you*
want out of the deal, and we can incorporate it into our plans.
Rod
From - Wed Jan 30 19:05:18 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
I tell you what, I am going to be nice to you, though you may decide not
to return the offer. I'm going to retreat Eas-Syr instead of disbanding
it. I have figured that doing so will slow Italy down quite a bit.
Please retreat Smy-Arm. Perhaps we can work together after all.
If you move Sev-Bla and Arm-Smy, for instance (with support from Syria,
though that will be cut), Italy's units are all in a mess. We can really
bog him down and give France a chance to move against him (though I
really think that France will attack you and not Italy, but this remains
to be seen).
Let me know what you think.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 30 19:05:36 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
>Also, let me know what *you* want out of the deal, and we can incorporate
>it into our plans.
The usual stuff. I know I won't solo and that the chances of getting into
a draw are very slim. I'd like to find my way to STP or WAR/MOS eventually
so that I preserve some hope of being in the draw as part of a stalemate
line. But, realistically, I know the chances of that happening are
slim. Mostly I want to make sure Russia does not share in the draw since
he saw to it that I would not. And, I'd like to be around to see him squirm.
I probably won't pay real close attention to the position, rather I will
mostly rely upon you to make good use of my units. My game load is getting
lighter right now though, so I may be adding my opinion more often that O
expect.
Tim
From - Wed Jan 30 21:57:48 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
It'd be nice if you can retain two centers next year, and I think
keeping an army is much better than having all fleets.
Maybe if you keep Den and Sil, we can do Den-Swe, Nwg S Yor-Nwy,
Sil-Ber, Bel S Bur-Ruh, Pic S Par-Bur in the Spring. This gets me Nwy
unless StP S Swe-Nwy, which I think is less likely than Swe S StP-Nwy.
Then in Fall, Den-Kie, Bur S Sil-Mun, Nth S Bel-Hol. You survive with
Den and Mun and I get Nwy and Hol.
What do you think? We'd still have to figure out some way to relocate
you to the stalemate line, but keeping you alive is a more urgent
priority.
Rod
From - Thu Jan 31 16:38:26 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
>Maybe if you keep Den and Sil, we can do Den-Swe, Nwg S Yor-Nwy,
>Sil-Ber, Bel S Bur-Ruh, Pic S Par-Bur in the Spring. This gets me Nwy
>unless StP S Swe-Nwy, which I think is less likely than Swe S StP-Nwy.
>Then in Fall, Den-Kie, Bur S Sil-Mun, Nth S Bel-Hol. You survive with
>Den and Mun and I get Nwy and Hol.
A couple of questions:
Is two centers enough for you this year?
Can't Russia screw things up by going for Denmark?
I'm sure you'll have more insight about what Russia intends, so I will go
with what you think is best.
>What do you think? We'd still have to figure out some way to relocate
>you to the stalemate line, but keeping you alive is a more urgent
>priority.
I agree.
Tim
From - Thu Jan 31 16:38:28 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I tell you what, I am going to be nice to you, though you may decide not
> to return the offer. I'm going to retreat Eas-Syr instead of disbanding
> it. I have figured that doing so will slow Italy down quite a bit.
> Please retreat Smy-Arm. Perhaps we can work together after all.
Well, I planned to retreat to Arm anyway so that's not a hard request
to agree to. I haven't got the free home SC's to build all the units
I can if I disbanded the unit. Seems someone's taken War! Imagine. Heh.
> If you move Sev-Bla and Arm-Smy, for instance (with support from Syria,
> though that will be cut), Italy's units are all in a mess. We can really
> bog him down and give France a chance to move against him (though I
> really think that France will attack you and not Italy, but this remains
> to be seen).
As you've pointed out, and as I'm telling Italy constantly and
consistantly now, France really will have almost no trouble taking
Scandinanvia and Germany from me right up to StP where he hits
the stalemate line. If Italy doesn't move NOW to defend Tunis
then he's handing France a solo on a plate. I assume you're telling
him the same thing, since it's absolutely true. He needs to convoy
an army into Tunis this comming Spring and move at least two fleets
into the Med west of Italy this year. I think France will probably
build F Mar myself anyway, which should tip him off.
Adam.........
From - Thu Jan 31 16:38:29 2002
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1909R Fri Feb 01 2002 03:43:45 +1300
Retreat orders for Fall of 1909. (gutsy.037)
Austria: Fleet Eastern Mediterranean -> Syria.
Austria: Army Trieste -> Serbia.
Germany: Army Belgium -> Ruhr.
Germany: Army Munich -> Silesia.
Russia: Army Smyrna -> Armenia.
Ownership of supply centers:
Austria: Budapest, Rumania, Serbia, Vienna, Warsaw.
France: Belgium, Brest, Edinburgh, Liverpool, London, Marseilles, Paris,
Portugal, Spain.
Germany: Denmark, Norway.
Italy: Ankara, Bulgaria, Constantinople, Greece, Naples, Rome, Smyrna,
Trieste, Tunis, Venice.
Russia: Berlin, Holland, Kiel, Moscow, Munich, Sevastopol, St Petersburg,
Sweden.
Austria: 5 Supply centers, 5 Units: Builds 0 units.
England: 0 Supply centers, 0 Units: Builds 0 units.
France: 9 Supply centers, 9 Units: Builds 0 units.
Germany: 2 Supply centers, 5 Units: Removes 3 units.
Italy: 10 Supply centers, 9 Units: Builds 1 unit.
Russia: 8 Supply centers, 6 Units: Builds 2 units.
Turkey: 0 Supply centers, 0 Units: Builds 0 units.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Adjustments for Winter of 1909.
The deadline for orders will be Sat Feb 02 2002 02:52:02 +1300.
From - Thu Jan 31 16:38:31 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
> Is two centers enough for you this year?
Yes, if it puts me in position to get a couple more next year.
> Can't Russia screw things up by going for Denmark?
Yes, but it might be worth the risk. I'll think it over some more and see if there's
a good alternative.
Rod
From - Thu Jan 31 16:38:33 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
> > Is two centers enough for you this year?
>
>Yes, if it puts me in position to get a couple more next year.
We should be able to have NWY, SWE, STP, DEN, HOL, KIE, MUN, & BER come
under your control in the next few years. That gets 17 centers under you
control even if I own two of them.
Do you have plans for an 18th? I'm willing to give you the game if you
find your 18th before I'm gone. But, if you come up short, I'd appreciate
being left on the board to share in the draw. Is that reasonable?
I've submitted orders to remove NWY, SKA and RUH. If you are unsure that's
what I should do, you should set wait. I'll be around most of the
afternoon to change orders if you wish, but I'll out this evening.
Tim
From - Thu Jan 31 16:38:34 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
> Do you have plans for an 18th?
Either War or Tun. War might be the easier of the two.
> I'm willing to give you the game if you
> find your 18th before I'm gone. But, if you come up short, I'd appreciate
> being left on the board to share in the draw. Is that reasonable?
Yes, but if your last center is my 18th then of course I'll want it.
> I've submitted orders to remove NWY, SKA and RUH.
I think that's the best plan. F Den has better mobility than F Nwy, and A Sil is
a great thorn in Russia's side.
I'm toying with an alternate to my previous plan: Nth-Ska, Nwg S Eng-Nth, then
Ska S Den-Swe, Nwg S Yor-Nwy in the Fall. But that makes it more difficult to
take Hol and Mun, so I'm not sure about it. I'll see if I can make "plans" with
Russia for the Spring then figure out our options.
Rod
From - Thu Jan 31 16:38:36 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
>Yes, but if your last center is my 18th then of course I'll want it.
Of course.
Spring: den-kie, bur-mun (sil s), bel-ruh, pic-bel would assure that the
army in Munich retreats to Berlin. Or, perhaps just as good would be
leaving Ruhr on the board and ordering Ruh-Mun (Bur S), Den-Kie. (I guess
I could also do this from Sil, but doing it from Ruhr means there is no
need to cover Ruhr against a potential retreat. That way I get into a
center and you would be virtually assured of getting Holland and
Norway. If you wanted, you could take Holland in the spring rather than
reposition the fleets.
Another thought: leaving Ruhr on the board would allow Ruh-Hol with support
from NTH and BEL and Den-Hel would likely destroy the Russian fleet. Which
might simplify things for the fall.
Tim
From - Thu Jan 31 16:38:37 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
Even better, I suppose, would be RUH-KIE, DEN-HEL, NTH-HOL (BEL S), ECH-NTH
(or simply BEL-HOL (NTH S)). Are you moving ECH-MAO and MAO-WME in
preparation for making an immediate push for Tunis? You have one build,
right? F MAR along with MAO-WME and ECH-MAO would virtually assure you of
Tunis. Or, at least make things very awkward for Italy who would have to
devote three units (one of which would be the vital ADR) to defending
Tunis. I think it looks right to make the push right now.
I've set wait because I really think I should keep Ruhr.
Tim
From - Thu Jan 31 16:38:38 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
I should be more careful, it's Italy that gets one build not you, which
obviously changes the whole Tunis thing.
I'll stop sending before things are thought through a bit more....
I do think you should consider me keeping the unit in Ruhr, though and have
set wait in case you change your mind.
Tim
From - Thu Jan 31 16:38:39 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
I've switched my orders to remove A SIL. I've also phased RUH-KIE and
DEN-HEL. If you take HOL while also ordering BUR-MUN, Russia cannot
destroy my army in Ruhr without giving you Munich. And, the destruction of
the Russian unit has to be good.
Still time for you to change my mind.
Tim
From - Thu Jan 31 16:38:40 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
> Are you moving ECH-MAO and MAO-WME in
> preparation for making an immediate push for Tunis?
No. I don't have a build, and I'm optimistic that Italy will continue east, so I
think I might as well leave him alone for now.
> I've switched my orders to remove A SIL. I've also phased RUH-KIE and
> DEN-HEL. If you take HOL while also ordering BUR-MUN ....
There are pros and cons to every option. Retaining Sil forces R to worry about Ber
and leaves Ruh open for something like Bur S Bel-Ruh (or vice versa). OTOH,
destroying a Russian unit is very attractive.
What were you thinking for the Fall? Hol S Hel-Kie and Bur S Ruh-Mun? It's a
good plan, but it doesn't assure me Nwy. I suppose I could live with just one
build as long as Russia doesn't get any. It does give you a good position to
take Ber then move into Bal next year. I'd like for us to get an army into Lvn
as soon as possible.
Rod
From - Thu Jan 31 16:38:42 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
>OTOH, destroying a Russian unit is very attractive.
>
>What were you thinking for the Fall? Hol S Hel-Kie and Bur S
>Ruh-Mun? It's a good plan, but it doesn't assure me Nwy. I suppose I
>could live with just one build as long as Russia doesn't get any.
In the fall, Russia will presumably have units in MUN, KIE, SWE and
NWY. We'll have units in NWG, NTH, HEL, HOL, BEL, RUH, and BUR.
Russia will be put to something of a guess. If he orders SWE S NWY in
anticipation of your attack, we can order NTH-DEN, HEL-KIE (HOL S), RUH-MUN
(BUR S) and you'll end up with DEN and HOL instead of NWY and HOL.
If we think Russia will order KIE-DEN to bounce you, we could order
NTH-DEN, HOL-KIE (HEL S) and BEL-HOL. I would not mind taking the risk of
being dropped to one center.
I do see the appeal of keeping SIL. If I order SIL-BER in the spring, you
are sure to take RUH from BEL and would probably be able to move an army
into BEL. You could also reposition your fleets to assure NWY. If Norway
is a sure thing, however, Russia will probably use his forces to take (or
hold) DEN. I don't think I'm assured two centers this way, either.
I think we can assure three centers, either two for me and one new one for
you or one for me and two new ones for you, but not two for me and two new
ones for you.
Tim
PS My evening plans just got cancelled, so I'll be around right up to the
deadline.
From - Thu Jan 31 16:38:46 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Tim,
> If Norway
> is a sure thing, however, Russia will probably use his forces to take (or
> hold) DEN.
I think you're right that it's better to force Russia to make a guess than to
leave him with only one option.
> I think we can assure three centers
I believe that will be sufficient. Let's go with F Den and A Ruh.
> PS My evening plans just got cancelled, so I'll be around right up to the deadline.
I'm here til 17:00 EST but can't divert too much time to Dip. I'll also be online
late this evening. I'll look at the board some more if I get around to it, but I
don't expect an epiphany that will necessitate futher change to your adjustments.
Rod
From - Thu Jan 31 16:38:50 2002
Message from tim at 9oakhill.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
>Let's go with F Den and A Ruh.
I'll go with this and remove wait.
Tim
From - Thu Jan 31 16:39:09 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> Well, I planned to retreat to Arm anyway so that's not a hard request
> to agree to. I haven't got the free home SC's to build all the units
> I can if I disbanded the unit. Seems someone's taken War! Imagine. Heh.
Yes, I hope your people don't mind too much. I am a benign occupier.
> As you've pointed out, and as I'm telling Italy constantly and
> consistantly now, France really will have almost no trouble taking
> Scandinanvia and Germany from me right up to StP where he hits
> the stalemate line. If Italy doesn't move NOW to defend Tunis
> then he's handing France a solo on a plate. I assume you're telling
> him the same thing, since it's absolutely true. He needs to convoy
> an army into Tunis this comming Spring and move at least two fleets
> into the Med west of Italy this year. I think France will probably
> build F Mar myself anyway, which should tip him off.
France doesn't get any builds. I think actually that France may not
attack Italy for a while. Why should he? If we keep Italy occupied long
enough, France has all the time in the world to attack you without Italy
coming after him. If Italy wanted to attack France, he would have done
it some time ago. They must be shooting for a two-way draw, or at least
that is what France is probably telling ITaly.
Austria
From - Fri Feb 01 18:23:03 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
You surprised me once again. Fleet in Syria instead of building an army to
Bud??? Would you like to reveal me the reasoning?
Raine
From - Fri Feb 01 18:23:04 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Sorry about the lateness of my reply. I would have liked to see you
disbanding instead of retreating to Armenia. Now it will take as much time
to get it away from there than it would have taken to rebuild it a year
aftrer :-(
What comes to Bla-Rum. I made the order in a hurry. There was no point in
there. I didn't get your message where you told about Sev-Rum before it
was too late. So I couldn't change my order :-(
Have you made your mind of building to south or north coast?
I believe Tim will leave his armies around and remove the fleets. He must
be thinking of getting Munich back 'cause it is on the stalemate
line. In your position I would build to Stp(nc).
Do you have any ideas why Keith left his fleet alive instead of removing
it and rebuilding an army to Bud? Odd.
Raine
From - Fri Feb 01 18:23:08 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Sorry about the lateness of my reply. I would have liked to see you
> disbanding instead of retreating to Armenia. Now it will take as much time
> to get it away from there than it would have taken to rebuild it a year
> aftrer :-(
Surely it's easy to move it into Sev this spring/fall as I take
Rum isn't it? Or am I not getting Rum anymore?
> What comes to Bla-Rum. I made the order in a hurry. There was no point in
> there. I didn't get your message where you told about Sev-Rum before it
> was too late. So I couldn't change my order :-(
Fair enough, wouldn't have had anywhere to build the new unit
anyway as it turns out.
> Have you made your mind of building to south or north coast?
> I believe Tim will leave his armies around and remove the fleets. He must
> be thinking of getting Munich back 'cause it is on the stalemate
> line. In your position I would build to Stp(nc).
North coast is the order I have in at the moment. France is going
to be able to grab most of Germany and Scandanavia off me pretty
easily if that's what he wants to do though. Personally I think
that he'll leave attacking me until after he's crossed the stalemate
line and taken Tunis, which is why I continue to encourage you to
make sure you protect that province. If France takes Tunis he'll
almost certainly solo. You really need to convoy an army out there
this year and get a fleet or two ready to protect it too.
> Do you have any ideas why Keith left his fleet alive instead of removing
> it and rebuilding an army to Bud? Odd.
He thinks that you and France have made a two-way-draw pact. I
suspect he's right about that, but I have no doubt that France
will break that pact and take Tunis as soon as he finds it
convienient. If I were him that would be this year, or next
at the very latest. He's trying to encourage me to make some
moves or another, I haven't really checked what since there's
little point before the builds happen, which he thinks will
at least slow you down. I don't really want to do that, I want
to eliminate Austria and Germany as quickly as possible and
start setting draw, but if you and France both continue to
ignore the Tunis issue without at least explaining why I'll
start to think that two-way is more than a convienient fiction
which would give me pause.
Adam..........
From - Fri Feb 01 18:23:09 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Yes, I hope your people don't mind too much. I am a benign occupier.
Well, how damaging it is depends on Germany's disbands to a
great extent. If he keeps the fleets and loses the armies
then I'm probably better off with an excuse to keep A Arm
rather than A War. If he keeps the armies, A war would have
probably been more helpful.
> France doesn't get any builds.
Yeah, sorry, I assumed he would since I'd told him to take Norway.
I'm glad he didn't though.
> I think actually that France may not
> attack Italy for a while. Why should he?
Because if he waits until Scandinavia and Germany are already
French then Italy will be ready to defend Tunis to the death?
Because crossing the stalemate line will be harder than taking
Germany? Without the build though he may well wait until he CAN
build F Mar though, which is another year but which still doesn't
mean he'd have to attack me first.
> If we keep Italy occupied long
> enough, France has all the time in the world to attack you without Italy
> coming after him. If Italy wanted to attack France, he would have done
> it some time ago. They must be shooting for a two-way draw, or at least
> that is what France is probably telling ITaly.
Probably that is what France is telling Italy. I still think that
France is more likely to want to cross the stalemate line BEFORE
he makes an enemy of me than after. At the very least I think
that's the best line to take with Italy.
RE your proposals, I can't even take the board seriously with
three German units pretending to exist when they don't, I'll
have a look after the adjustments phase.
Adam........
From - Fri Feb 01 18:23:11 2002
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1909B Sat Feb 02 2002 02:52:02 +1300
Adjustment orders for Winter of 1909. (gutsy.038)
Germany: Removes the army in Silesia.
Germany: Removes the fleet in the Skagerrak.
Germany: Removes the fleet in Norway.
Russia: Builds a fleet in St Petersburg (north coast).
Russia: Builds an army in Moscow.
Italy: Builds an army in Venice.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Movement for Spring of 1910.
The deadline for orders will be Tue Feb 05 2002 20:00:00 +1300.
