Fall 1908
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From - Thu Jan 03 17:20:49 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
All is not lost between us. I understand that you must have some
agreement with France, but I am sure you realize that if there is war
between Austria and Italy, France will only delay his attack on you until
you are most vulnerable and he has gained strength from the conquest of
Germany.
There are a number of moves we can make that we might both find
agreeable. My main concern is still your army in Bulgaria. You need to
remove it. You might prefer to move it to Constantinople. I would
prefer thta you convoy it to Armenia. I have been in touch with Russia
and he mentions that you are trying to get his help, but he has told me
that he does not intend to attack me for now.
There are several options for our fleets. I think you should move
Ion-Tun and Nap-Ion. As for Greece, we can exchange Greece for Bulgaria
or Smyrna if you would like. We could instead arrange to bounce in
Smyrna.
As for Tyrolia, perhaps you can arramnge something with France such that
one of you takes Munich. I might be willing to help you.
Austria
From - Thu Jan 03 17:20:50 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Thank you for your loyalty. You can tell me what Italy tells you, but
Italy knows that you are passing me information, so whatever he tells you
is unlikely to be the truth.
If you have no other plans, I would request that you order Sevastopol to
support Rumania again. If you were adventerous and if you anticipate a
build, you could instead move Sevastopol to Armenia, and we could work on
taking the Turkish centers from Italy.
Austria
From - Fri Jan 04 18:36:51 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Happy new year! You made me happy with your moves :-) I hope you got some
happiness from my move away from Piedmond. Now we can continue to
demilitarize our border like we agreed. If I remember correctly we agreed
to empty Naf,Wes,Lyo and Pie. Now that I moved away from Tunis too I
wonder if you dare to move the other of your fleets away from Med
(Spa(sc)-Por perhaps) ?
BTW, I want you to know that I _promised_ to attack against you to Keith
BUT only if he disbands his fleet. Now I can be honest, reliable, noble,
etc. and break no promises :-)
So, to me it is clear that I am going to concentrate on eastern affairs.
I would like to make a deal with you where we both could send our fleets
away from our common border. Does it sound reasonable?
What comes to FIR, I did not like to see the Sev S Rum. Adam told me
beforehand that Keith has asked for it. Adam also seems to be reclutant to
attack Austria. In principle FIR is the 3way for us (FI). Should we start
negotiating together (I mean press to FIR) ?
Raine
From - Sun Jan 06 08:06:12 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Thank you for your loyalty. You can tell me what Italy tells you, but
> Italy knows that you are passing me information, so whatever he tells you
> is unlikely to be the truth.
Well, if he were to ask for support into Rum then he'd
have to tell me which unit to support I guess, but he
hasn't been in touch so I guess we have no info there
anyway.
> If you have no other plans, I would request that you order Sevastopol to
> support Rumania again. If you were adventerous and if you anticipate a
> build, you could instead move Sevastopol to Armenia, and we could work on
> taking the Turkish centers from Italy.
I'll probably choose the support out of those two options. I wonder
though what your A Vie has planned for it? If I'm to take A Ber
this fall then I'd need A Mun and A Boh to have their support
cut. France say he'll cut Munich's support but A Boh is more
tricky. Is there any chance A Vie will be in a position to
just tap A Boh a little, or has it got bigger fish to fry?
Adam...........
From - Sun Jan 06 18:52:03 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
I assume that you will want to move Sil-Ber supported by Pru. Then you
are worried that Germany will order Ber-Sil supported by Boh to block
you, right?
I am willing to move Vie-Boh as part of a deal. Do you think you will
need my support enough that you would be willing to move Sev-Arm? What
do you have in mind building with the unit you will gain from Berlin? In
any case, can I cound on your support from Sev? I know that Italy must
be trying to entice you into some scheme of his, but with his forces
swarming around me, I'm confident that he would be able to get all of the
Austrian centers and quickly kick you out of whatever centers you did
take. Right now there is an opportunity to do some damage to Italy in
Turkey, but I'm not sure how long this opportunity will last.
The only other thing I had in mind to do with Vienna would be to support
Trieste, or to attack Tyrolia with it. I suppose I could suport Tri with
Bud. I am worried about losing Greece to Italy.
Austria
From - Mon Jan 07 05:30:58 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
I would still like to hear from you. I haven't got a mail from you for a
looong time. Is everythinkg ok?
I could help you in your desperate looking situation. As long as I don't
hear from you I have to think that you don't need my help, that gives me
paranoid thoughts :-) I mean, maybe there is a weird agreement between you
and some other(s) ...
I am willing to share my thoughts with you if you just give me message.
If the conflict between you and FR is real I think Italy should be the one
to help you. I am ready to listen if you have anything to ask from me.
Raine
From - Mon Jan 07 17:37:41 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Hopefully you are healthy now.
> Hummm, well I'd sooner you decided on some other course of action,
> for what that's worth. Taking Sev could weaken me so much that
> I lose to Germany which would leave France nowhere else to go
> but South again presumably.
As you could see from my moves I was not interested in making a favour to
Keith. I just wanted you to know what Keith wants me to do. I want to work
with you and not against you.
> Not sure that anyone's been talking a 'lot' recently, but
> we're in touch.
Timezones are slowing the press exchange but we should not have that
problem, let's try to take advantage of that fact.
> Bouncing in Arm would leave you free to just order Bla - Sev
> of course leaving me in Arm and you in Sev. Not the kind of
> situation I'd like to be in.
Adam, as you can see I was not interested in moving to Sevastopol. I had
other alternatives for my Black Sea fleet too (than to order to Bulgaria)
but I decided to that to show you that I am not against you (if one move
ever can give that idea, well anyway). I trusted you and did not move to
Armenia. I trusted you and did not move to Sevastopol.
*Drumming*
I _finally_ want to attack Austria with you :-)
*Drumming*
If there ever was broken records whatsoever I hope we have thrown them
away :-) or at least changed them to 'I want ot attack Austria with you'
:-)
> I did have my orders in, but whoever didn't got them in while
> I was ill so I guess that you're at least 100% sure what I'll
> do last spring now. You say you'd like to cooperate in the
> fall, but even Sev S Bla/Bul - Rum would likely fail, the best
> we could do would be a 50/50 shot at either Gre or Rum, I'm
> not yet convinced that it would be worth me risking Austrian
> wrath by intervention for a 50% chance at a center for someone
> who isn't even me. I'm open to persuation though.
Keith told me that he hasn't got them in. About Rumania, I told you some
time ago that Rumania is going to be yours. So if you want to move there
let me know so I can give you as many supports as I can afford.
I assume from the Sev S Rum. That you are willing to co-operate with
Austria... Keith must be happy about that. I'd like to ask your opinion on
how you think this game is going to evolve? What are your goals? I ask
this because there are two ways IR can be togeter, 1 in RIF alliance and 2
in RIG alliance. IR alone is weak we need someone to help us.
I am afraid of France. If I attack Austria now with the needed power to
win the AI battle, I leave France the golden opportunity to win this
game. My back will be exposed to his stab. So in order to attack Austria I
need your help. Keith already told me that you have told him that I want
your help to attack Austria :-( Well, maybe Keith was guessing, maybe you
told him it doesn't change the fact that I'd like to work with you against
Austria. Only way I can imagine for you to not work with me is in FAI
triple but that is highly risky that it will lead to French solo. So, I'd
like to hear your thoughts about the future in the long run.
I'll wait for your note,
Raine
From - Mon Jan 07 17:37:43 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
I was sad to see your decision :-(
> All is not lost between us.
Yes, maybe not but everything is much harder now.
> I understand that you must have some
> agreement with France, but I am sure you realize that if there is war
> between Austria and Italy, France will only delay his attack on you until
> you are most vulnerable and he has gained strength from the conquest of
> Germany.
I understand, I understand. Then what? What do you suggest me to do?
To move against France? Now? Maybe I should be happy about the delay that
AI war would give me?
> As for Tyrolia, perhaps you can arramnge something with France such that
> one of you takes Munich. I might be willing to help you.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keith I cannot believe that. After the retreat and the 'you fired the
first shot' -message I cannot believe you might help me. Do you want to
explain how you could help me?
Raine
From - Mon Jan 07 17:37:46 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> > It looks like you have a good chance of taking Ber with Pru S Sil-Ber,
> > Bur-Mun.
>
> The first option looks best at the moment
OK. I'll order Bur-Mun.
> I'll talk to Austria
> about maybe getting him to cut Boh, although he insists that he's
> going to be busy with Italy.
Yeah, he keeps telling me he'd help with Germany "if he could", but he needs my
assistance against Italy. I don't think we really need much of his help, and we
certainly don't want to see him in a position where he can take German centers
(across the stalemate line) for himself. If he's hesitant to tap Boh, perhaps
Raine would do it for you. He seems eager to negotiate.
> If you retreat to Hel, we can do Bel S Hel-Hol, Eng-Nth.
The deadline is almost upon us, so I'll go ahead and order this, as well as NAO-Nwg.
If you do Hel-Hol then Bel is safe, and we get either Hol or Nwg. If you want to
try for Den or Kie instead, please let me know so I can change to Eng S Bel. I'll
probably be online until 23:00 GMT.
Raine wants me to keep moving my fleets out of the Med, and he's talking FIR. I'd
prefer to keep a Med presence, but I might have to humour him to keep him focused on
Austria. What do you think our long-term plans should be concerning A/I? A three-way
is not an ideal result, but if neither of us anticipates a chance to win, FIR would
probably be the easiest draw to achieve. OTOH, it might still be too early to be
talking about draws.
Rod
From - Mon Jan 07 17:37:47 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> Happy new year! You made me happy with your moves :-)
I'm glad you approve. :-)
> I hope you got some
> happiness from my move away from Piedmond.
Yes, I think we're both on the right track.
> I wonder if you dare to move the other of your fleets away from Med
> (Spa(sc)-Por perhaps) ?
I was thinking Spa-MAO. Would that be alright for you?
> Now I can be honest, reliable, noble,
> etc. and break no promises :-)
That's always a nice position to be in. :-)
> What comes to FIR, I did not like to see the Sev S Rum.
Perhaps you and Adam could make an arrangement to take Rum this season. Austria
can not protect it from Bul/Bla/Sev without letting you into Gre.
> Should we start negotiating together (I mean press to FIR) ?
I think FIR is a good idea. As far as I'm concerned, you and Adam can handle the
east however you like.
Rod
From - Mon Jan 07 17:37:48 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> It looks like Italy is attacking me.
He told me he's displeased with your retreat, so I think you're right that he'll
continue to move east.
> it would be nice if you could move
> your extra fleets this way as soon as you can.
I'm not eager to fight a war on two fronts, but I wouldn't want to pass up any
easy gains either. When Tun is easy pickings I'll go for it, but for now I'm
inclined to string him along a little further.
Rod
From - Mon Jan 07 17:37:51 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I assume that you will want to move Sil-Ber supported by Pru. Then you
> are worried that Germany will order Ber-Sil supported by Boh to block
> you, right?
That would be the nightmare moves, yeah, without help from you
or Raine I'd fail to get a center that way. Probably anyhow.
> I am willing to move Vie-Boh as part of a deal. Do you think you will
> need my support enough that you would be willing to move Sev-Arm?
Possibly, though we don't have a lot of time to sort something
like that out anymore unforunately.
> What do you have in mind building with the unit you will gain from
> Berlin?
To be honest, I really haven't thought ahead even nearly as
much as I should have done. I guess War or StP would be the
quickest way to continue into Germany, take Swe, defend Nwy etc.
Some kind of decision is going to have to be made about
the Turkish lands at some point though.
> In any case, can I cound on your support from Sev?
Do you prefer Sev - Arm or Sev S Rum? I'll definately do one
or the other, but it's going to be a last minute decision which
one by the look of it.
> I know that Italy must
> be trying to entice you into some scheme of his, but with his forces
> swarming around me, I'm confident that he would be able to get all of the
> Austrian centers and quickly kick you out of whatever centers you did
> take.
Actually, he's been pretty quiet. He's written something today
but I haven't read thought it properly yet, I think he's offered
me Rum again, but I clearly couldn't take that just yet anyway.
He keeps going on about being scared I'd move to Arm, so I guess
that shows that it might be a good idea :)
> The only other thing I had in mind to do with Vienna would be to support
> Trieste, or to attack Tyrolia with it. I suppose I could suport Tri with
> Bud. I am worried about losing Greece to Italy.
A very valid worry indeed. I guess that F Aeg will have to go to
Smy to keep F Eas honest, that only leaves A Bul and F Ion to
attack Gre with. If Ser bounces with Ion in Gre then you need
to cut Bul support, which can only be done with Rum, but
that renderes Rum itself vunerable. Tricky.
I guess Sev could support Bud to Rum, Rum cuts Bul's support,
Ser bounces in Gre. That should keep Gre safe, or at least
give you Smy to make up if it fails. It means I can't move
to Arm even if I decide I want to though.
Adam...........
From - Mon Jan 07 17:37:52 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Hopefully you are healthy now.
I have some kind of infection in my tooth, but the antibiotics
are keeping it under controll and the dentist will take another
look on Wednesday. Haven't had a painkiller free day this year :(
> As you could see from my moves I was not interested in making a favour to
> Keith. I just wanted you to know what Keith wants me to do. I want to work
> with you and not against you.
I understand that, I just like to make sure you know ALL the
reasons why you're right :)
> I _finally_ want to attack Austria with you :-)
Well, I guess that they say late is better than never, are we
in a position to do a great deal of damage though? You can get
Gre I guess, the question is where my centers in Austria are
comming from now I've finally made an uneasy peace with him?
> Keith told me that he hasn't got them in. About Rumania, I told you some
> time ago that Rumania is going to be yours. So if you want to move there
> let me know so I can give you as many supports as I can afford.
Of course the number of supports you can afford to give would
determine how likely I would be to succeed. I'd be happy to move
there if you could give three supports, but I see you don't
have three units, let alone three bored units with nothing to
do in the area.
> I assume from the Sev S Rum. That you are willing to co-operate with
> Austria...
Kieth asked for the support, I had no plans to move Sev so
the support was there to anyone who asked basically. It doesn't
show long term commitment to Kieth.
> Keith must be happy about that. I'd like to ask your opinion on
> how you think this game is going to evolve? What are your goals? I ask
> this because there are two ways IR can be togeter, 1 in RIF alliance and 2
> in RIG alliance. IR alone is weak we need someone to help us.
A Russian solo would be nice :)
To be frank, I really haven't thought about it all over Xmas
and the new year, I was barely keeping up with the game before
the break. Germany looks good for an elimination, as does Austria,
but I can't see France going for a three way from his current
position. I don't really feel in control, which is part of the
reason I haven't given it much thought. France is definately
the power to watch, but he's got no more supply centers than
you have so maybe you're the power to watch too?
> I am afraid of France. If I attack Austria now with the needed power to
> win the AI battle, I leave France the golden opportunity to win this
> game. My back will be exposed to his stab. So in order to attack Austria I
> need your help.
I don't have a great deal of help to give either you OR Kieth
(you know that he's saying roughtly the same things, it's
obvious he would be) right now to be honest. My forces are
going to be tied up in Germany for a year or two at least,
I need to secure Norway, take Berlin, push for Sweeden and
another center or two so that France doens't get all the
gains in the north and leave himself just as sure on that
solo as you're afraid he will be.
I think for the immediate future I have to try and perform
a delicate balance, keep France from taking too many centers
in the north and get as many German centers as I can so that
I can help tip the scales in A/I quickly enough to free up
you to stop the French solo.
That does kinda indicate a FRI draw, yeah.
> Keith already told me that you have told him that I want
> your help to attack Austria :-(
I don't remember saying that, but I don't remember much of what
I've said lately since it was mostly nearly a month ago. I'm
sure he knows what you're saying anyway, what else would you
say? He's saying roughly the same thing to me except swapping
the names Austria and Italy. The one thing on your side is
that we may need a strong border with France, and you're
much better placed to provide that. Luckily, or unluckily,
for you both, my one unit in Sev can't do a lot more than
hold and support until I can get reinforcements anyway.
Or was there some specific plan you had in mind? Until reinforcements
arrive I don't think there's much I can do.
Adam...........
From - Mon Jan 07 17:37:56 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> OK. I'll order Bur-Mun.
Still talking to Austria about Vie - Boh. He wants me to order Sev-Arm
at the same time, then build in Sev. That would give us quite a good
start on taking Turkey, but I'm not sure about it. What do you think?
> Yeah, he keeps telling me he'd help with Germany "if he could",
> but he needs my assistance against Italy. I don't think we really
> need much of his help, and we certainly don't want to see him in
> a position where he can take German centers (across the
> stalemate line) for himself.
Indeed.
> If he's hesitant to tap Boh, perhaps Raine would do it for you.
> He seems eager to negotiate.
Raine never negotiates, he just restates his position. If he
has nothing planned for Tyr I guess he might do what I ask
with it, but if he has it marked for an attack in Tri say,
there's no chance, even if the Tri attack would be guarenteed
a failure.
> > If you retreat to Hel, we can do Bel S Hel-Hol, Eng-Nth.
>
> The deadline is almost upon us, so I'll go ahead and order this,
> as well as NAO-Nwg. If you do Hel-Hol then Bel is safe, and we
> get either Hol or Nwg. If you want to try for Den or Kie
> instead, please let me know so I can change to Eng S Bel. I'll
> probably be online until 23:00 GMT.
There's no way Den will be left uncovered I don't think,
not when there's three units that could get there, one
will find a way I'm sure. Kie looks more promising, but
Germany moving Mun there in the hope of a bounce and
losing Munich for his trouble is to funny to miss up
so I guess the Hol plan is best, I don't particually
expect it to succeed though.
> Raine wants me to keep moving my fleets out of the Med,
> and he's talking FIR. I'd prefer to keep a Med presence,
> but I might have to humour him to keep him focused on Austria.
Further out of the Med than F Spa(sc)? Sounds like he's asking
you to give up all defence of Iberia and Mar to me, I'd
tell him you've pulled back all you intend to if I were France.
> What do you think our long-term plans should be concerning A/I?
> A three-way is not an ideal result, but if neither of us anticipates
> a chance to win, FIR would probably be the easiest draw to achieve.
> OTOH, it might still be too early to be talking about draws.
I don't know, Italy was just asking the same questions but his
questions were obviously spun to make FIR the more obvious answer.
I think it's a little early, the ideal plan for now is to keep
A and I fighting and getting nowhere while we finish off Germany
then decide after that which, if either, (or both!), to eliminate
before a draw.
Adam..........
From - Mon Jan 07 17:37:58 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Oh, I forgot to ask: what are your plans for A Tyr? It would
be a great help to me to have Boh's support cut this fall
if you can spare the motion to do so. Is there something I
can do for you in return for you tapping Boh this fall?
Adam.........
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:04 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I understand, I understand. Then what? What do you suggest me to do?
> To move against France? Now? Maybe I should be happy about the delay that
> AI war would give me?
What do I suggest you do? Remove your army from Bulgaria. That is your
only center that I could hope to take. If you don't own Bulgaria, there
is little point of conflict between us. Then, Russia would be
vulnerable, and you and Germany could put the squeeze on France, with
your getting the majority of the supply centers since Germany is in such
a pinch.
I don't know what your aim is in this game. If we fight, you will
probably beat me eventually, but I don't think it will happen quickly
enough. France and Russia have a large advantage against Germany, and
the threat that France poses to you only grows with time. He is not
going to attack you now, but he will wait until you have moved more of
your fleets East.
> > As for Tyrolia, perhaps you can arramnge something with France such that
> > one of you takes Munich. I might be willing to help you.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Keith I cannot believe that. After the retreat and the 'you fired the
> first shot' -message I cannot believe you might help me. Do you want to
> explain how you could help me?
Have I ever lied to you? Name one time. I thought I could move Vie-Boh
to cut its support. If you and France cooperate, then Germany must
decide between defending Berlin and defending Munich. I would bet that
he would choose to defend Munich.
Austria
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:05 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> He wants me to order Sev-Arm
> at the same time, then build in Sev.
If you were certain to get a build then that would be a good idea.
> I guess the Hol plan is best
OK. I'll support you and tap Nth.
> I don't particually
> expect it to succeed though.
If it doesn't work then at least I get Nwg, and I think we have a good shot at
getting your fleet into a German center eventually.
> Further out of the Med than F Spa(sc)? Sounds like he's asking
> you to give up all defence of Iberia and Mar to me
I'm not too worried about my current holdings while A/I are squabbling. I think
I'll move Mar-Spa, Spa-MAO but no further. That would make it look like I'm
withdrawing while leaving open the possibility of a Mar build and/or assault on Tun.
> the ideal plan for now is to keep
> A and I fighting and getting nowhere while we finish off Germany
> then decide after that....
I think that's a good plan.
Rod
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:06 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
I think I would prefer you to move Sev-Arm. However, if you ordered Sev
S Rum, that would be okay too. I can work with either of them. Let me
know when you decide, even if it is just before the deadline, thanks.
Austria
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:07 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Good to hear from you.
> > I wonder if you dare to move the other of your fleets away from Med
> > (Spa(sc)-Por perhaps) ?
>
> I was thinking Spa-MAO. Would that be alright for you?
Well, Rod I continue the honest way :-) From Spa or Por you cannot move to
Naf. I am worried if you move Spa-Mao, Mar-Spa/Lyo/Pie and build a fleet
in Mar. If you give me your word that you don't then Spa-Mao is ok.
Basically let's keep the DMZ area as we agreed and no builds in Mar. Could
you agree this?
I mean, after this I could move all my forces to east to battle with
Austria.
> Perhaps you and Adam could make an arrangement to take Rum this season.
> Austria can not protect it from Bul/Bla/Sev without letting you into
> Gre.
>
> > Should we start negotiating together (I mean press to FIR) ?
>
> I think FIR is a good idea. As far as I'm concerned, you and Adam can
> handle the east however you like.
I can live with that. It would have more triple alliance feeling if we
would talk together :-)
Can you tell me how you are going to handle the Munich situation? I mean,
I am not sure what I am going to do with Tyr there is a slight possibility
that I could help.
Raine
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:09 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> What do I suggest you do? Remove your army from Bulgaria. That is your
> only center that I could hope to take. If you don't own Bulgaria, there
> is little point of conflict between us. Then, Russia would be
> vulnerable, and you and Germany could put the squeeze on France, with
> your getting the majority of the supply centers since Germany is in such
> a pinch.
Even if R stopped his attack against G and GI would attack F France would
be able to defend himself. That is not a good plan when you have a fleet.
> I don't know what your aim is in this game. If we fight, you will
> probably beat me eventually, but I don't think it will happen quickly
> enough. France and Russia have a large advantage against Germany, and
> the threat that France poses to you only grows with time. He is not
> going to attack you now, but he will wait until you have moved more of
> your fleets East.
And I have no clue of your aim either. I now the threat from France. I am
not sure if you understand it after you did not disband your fleet and
after the bitter press I received from you.
> Have I ever lied to you? Name one time. I thought I could move Vie-Boh
> to cut its support. If you and France cooperate, then Germany must
> decide between defending Berlin and defending Munich. I would bet that
> he would choose to defend Munich.
No Keith, you haven't lied to me. I am glad of that. You sent me press
which was maybe written in bad mood or whatever but you made it clear that
you'll tease me as long as possible. Also the retreat... I made it clear
that if you don't want to disband it then you should retreat to Alb. That
would have been the neutral place to be.
Feel free to move Vie-Boh or whatever... I am ready to listen if you have
a solid set of moves how we could make AI alive.
Raine
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:10 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> From Spa or Por you cannot move to Naf.
I can't move north against G from Spa or Por either. I'm not interested in having
useless units.
> Basically let's keep the DMZ area as we agreed and no builds in Mar.
Agreed. I will not build in Mar.
> I am not sure what I am going to do with Tyr
If you have nothing else to do with Tyr, tapping Boh to cut any potential support
might be helpful.
Rod
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:11 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> If you were certain to get a build then that would be a good idea.
Yeah, I guess that's the thing, how certain can I be? If
Keith actually does tap Boh then it should be definate, but
if he says he will then doesn't? Hummm.
> If it doesn't work then at least I get Nwg, and I think we have
> a good shot at getting your fleet into a German center eventually.
That's true, the sooner we make some good headway into Germany
the sooner we'll be able to deal with AI though, until then
we'll have to try and make sure they don't do more than swap
a SC or two back and forth for a while.
> I'm not too worried about my current holdings while A/I are squabbling.
> I think I'll move Mar-Spa, Spa-MAO but no further. That would make it
> look like I'm withdrawing while leaving open the possibility of a Mar
> build and/or assault on Tun.
I guess MAO and Spa(sc) isn't a lot different.
Adam..........
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:13 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I think I would prefer you to move Sev-Arm. However, if you ordered Sev
> S Rum, that would be okay too. I can work with either of them. Let me
> know when you decide, even if it is just before the deadline, thanks.
I think that if you can guarentee you'll tap Boh this fall,
so that I can be guarenteed a build to put in Sev, I would
move to Arm as you have suggested. Can you give me that guarentee?
Adam.......
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:14 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> I think that if you can guarentee you'll tap Boh this fall,
> so that I can be guarenteed a build to put in Sev, I would
> move to Arm as you have suggested. Can you give me that guarentee?
Okay, done. I will move Vie-Boh.
Austria
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:15 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Would you mind if I moved Vie-Boh?
Austria
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:16 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
> Yeah, I guess that's the thing, how certain can I be? If
> Keith actually does tap Boh then it should be definate....
Ummm - have you forgotten that you're losing Nwy?
:-)
Rod
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:17 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I hope those painkillers help.
> Well, I guess that they say late is better than never, are we
> in a position to do a great deal of damage though? You can get
> Gre I guess, the question is where my centers in Austria are
> comming from now I've finally made an uneasy peace with him?
You would get Rumania first. That is sure. You might get it now or later.
RI attack against Austria (even if you only use one army) will make sure
Austria will fall. I cannot see why you would want to keep him alive.
We both agree that France is the power who is about to solo if we are
careless. What could we do? YOU could ally with me or Keith. If you ally
with Keith then who is going to stop France from taking the 18th center
from Tunis? Not Keith he won't have the time to build the needed
navy. Remember he'll get one fleet per year IF he gets the needed builds
AND Trieste is free for build. If I see AFR then I don't have motivation
to resist Rod. In my philosophy it is better to lose to solo than to draw.
> Of course the number of supports you can afford to give would
> determine how likely I would be to succeed. I'd be happy to move
> there if you could give three supports, but I see you don't
> have three units, let alone three bored units with nothing to
> do in the area.
I get the feeling that you are not very interested at all. I hope I got
it wrong. You have nothing to lose if you continuosly move Sev-Rum. Keith
would not like it but you'd get Rum after all.
> Kieth asked for the support, I had no plans to move Sev so
> the support was there to anyone who asked basically. It doesn't
> show long term commitment to Kieth.
I understand your desicion. Now you gained some trust.
> A Russian solo would be nice :)
:-) IR is enough for me :-)
> To be frank, I really haven't thought about it all over Xmas
> and the new year, I was barely keeping up with the game before
> the break. Germany looks good for an elimination, as does Austria,
> but I can't see France going for a three way from his current
> position. I don't really feel in control, which is part of the
> reason I haven't given it much thought. France is definately
> the power to watch, but he's got no more supply centers than
> you have so maybe you're the power to watch too?
France is getting at least Bel, right? It means he'll have at least one
build. I am not getting builds. If you think I am as much a threat to solo
as France... I cannot believe you think that way.
> I don't have a great deal of help to give either you OR Kieth
> (you know that he's saying roughtly the same things, it's
> obvious he would be) right now to be honest. My forces are
> going to be tied up in Germany for a year or two at least,
> I need to secure Norway, take Berlin, push for Sweeden and
> another center or two so that France doens't get all the
> gains in the north and leave himself just as sure on that
> solo as you're afraid he will be.
The difference between Austria and Italy as your ally now is the ability
to prevent French solo. To be able to do that your ally needs fleets.
> I don't remember saying that, but I don't remember much of what
> I've said lately since it was mostly nearly a month ago. I'm
> sure he knows what you're saying anyway, what else would you
> say? He's saying roughly the same thing to me except swapping
> the names Austria and Italy. The one thing on your side is
> that we may need a strong border with France, and you're
> much better placed to provide that. Luckily, or unluckily,
> for you both, my one unit in Sev can't do a lot more than
> hold and support until I can get reinforcements anyway.
Adam, your army in Sevastopol will be a HUGE factor. Believe it. Basically
it will have an important role in deciding the speed of Austrian downfall.
If you can move Sev-Rum then you should get Rumania now or later. If you
can guarantee that you are not allied with Austria then I can guarantee
that I'll throw all my units against Austria :-) Well, maybe I do it
anyway...
> Or was there some specific plan you had in mind? Until reinforcements
> arrive I don't think there's much I can do.
At least you could tell me that you won't move to Armenia :-)
Raine
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:19 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> Oh, I forgot to ask: what are your plans for A Tyr? It would
> be a great help to me to have Boh's support cut this fall
> if you can spare the motion to do so. Is there something I
> can do for you in return for you tapping Boh this fall?
I have not decided yet. Keith told me that he might cut the support from
Boh.
You probably asked the same from Keith. Let me guess he wanted you to move
to Armenia in return? Am I right?
Raine
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:28 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> Agreed. I will not build in Mar.
Then I have no problems in Spa-Mao :-) Just go ahead.
> If you have nothing else to do with Tyr, tapping Boh to cut any potential
> support might be helpful.
Keith told me that he _might_ do it. I am not sure if he will though.
I understand that tapping Boh is related to Munich situatino but could you
give me your version of the faith of Munich? I know, I am curious, please
forgive me :-)
Raine
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:29 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> You probably asked the same from Keith. Let me guess he wanted you to move
> to Armenia in return? Am I right?
Ooooh, good guess. I'm not confident that doing that would be
the right thing though, as we've already said: France could
be a problem and you're better positioned to stop him.
It'd be easier to order Sev - Rum, rather than Sev S Rum
as I'm currently favouring, if you were to promise to
tap Boh yourself. Any chance you'd promise that?
Adam.......
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:30 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> Ummm - have you forgotten that you're losing Nwy?
I had actually, but looking at the map I'd say that's not
entirely certain even now. Nth's support will be cut
one of Ska/Swe will need to cover Den if he's going
to be sure to keep that province safe from Hel. Probably
Nwy will go, but that's not certain either.
In other news, Austria has agreed to tap Boh if I take
Arm and Italy guessed that was his offer too but hasn't
(yet) agreed to hit Boh himself.
I think I'm going to have to choose a side in this battle,
both A and I are insisting on Sev moving as they ask
and I've negotiated right into their hands, it'd be
difficult to back out honourably now. Damn. Can I
afford to stab Austria AGAIN? Surely it's time to
stab Italy, I've knifed everyone else already.
Hummm.
Adam.......
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:31 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> Ooooh, good guess. I'm not confident that doing that would be
> the right thing though, as we've already said: France could
> be a problem and you're better positioned to stop him.
It would be nasty one to me and a huge factor to imbalance (is this
correct opposite to balance?) the game in favour of France solo.
> It'd be easier to order Sev - Rum, rather than Sev S Rum
> as I'm currently favouring, if you were to promise to
> tap Boh yourself. Any chance you'd promise that?
To be honest I don't know. I believe that Keith is most likely going to
make a supported attack against Tyrolia. That is why I would like to
support Tyr hold and it couldn't tap Bohemia.
I hope you can appreciate my honesty. Look at the situation on my side.
I feel very uncomfortable when I cannot immediately say that 'yes I'll tap
Boh'. I'll try to diplome so that I can do it but I cannot promise it.
I'll cross my fingers and hope you won't move to Armenia when I cannot
promise you a favour strainghforwardly.
I hope you see the way I see. FIR vs. F solo, those are the outcomes of
this game. G is dead 'cause he is not diploming. I got a last message from
him around 10th of December. You told you got something from him when he
put moves in, I didn't.
Adam whatever you decide to do with Sevastopol. I would appreciate if you
could tell me it in advance. My goal is I solo :-), IR and then FIR. I
believe the only really possible ones are F solo and FIR.
Raine
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:33 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> It would be nasty one to me and a huge factor to imbalance (is this
> correct opposite to balance?) the game in favour of France solo.
Imbalance is fine, and you're right, it would give France
some considerable advantage. What strikes me as odd is that
France isn't arguing in favour of it at all, he's staying
very neutral indeed.
> To be honest I don't know. I believe that Keith is most likely going to
> make a supported attack against Tyrolia. That is why I would like to
> support Tyr hold and it couldn't tap Bohemia.
Wouldn't Ven - Tri do just as good as supporting Tyr? It cuts support
if Vie is doing the attacking and TAKES TRI if Vie supports Tri
into Tyl. Well, unless Bud or Ser follow up into Tri but in that
case you're in Gre or I'm in Rum for sure.
> Adam whatever you decide to do with Sevastopol. I would appreciate if you
> could tell me it in advance. My goal is I solo :-), IR and then FIR. I
> believe the only really possible ones are F solo and FIR.
I hate it when I don't really want to get involved in a fight
but both sides are pressuring me so hard that I think I
really have to choose a side. Still, I guess it can only
speed up the game and get me more in control either way.
Adam......
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:35 2002
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi,
Sorry for being so silent. Our holidays were a little sickness filled. The
only one I kept in touch with during that span was Rod.
If you feel you need to move into Bohemia, I understand, but I'd much prefer
you move to Galicia. If I have mis-read Rod and FR is solid against me, I
rather have your offense than your defense.
If you have the chance before the moves, drop me a line. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:37 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Can I
> afford to stab Austria AGAIN? Surely it's time to
> stab Italy, I've knifed everyone else already.
It's your call. If you trust Austria and feel confident of a build, Arm is a good
move - but if you don't get the build it makes your position a little awkward. I
suppose you could always disband Nwy and forsake StP short-term in order to build
in Sev. (A German fleet in StP is not much of a worry if you're overrunning the
German homeland.)
Rod
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:40 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> And I have no clue of your aim either. I now the threat from France. I am
> not sure if you understand it after you did not disband your fleet and
> after the bitter press I received from you.
Now wait a minute. Don't pin this on me. I gave you clear conditions
necessary for the disband of my fleet, and you violated those
conditions. Your moves are clearly hostile to me, and with what you've
been telling France and Russia, there is no doubt in my mind to your
intentions. If you wanted to be at peace with Austria, then we would be
at peace.
I'm not going to roll over and let you conquer me. If you're going to
attack me, I'm going to defend myself to the best of my ability.
If you don't want to be at war, the burden is on you. I'm not
threatening you in the least, and it is you who are threatening to take
my centers. I'm not going to tell you my moves or do anything that you
want me to until you remove the threat from me.
It is all very simple. You are the agressor here, not me, and if this
continues, you will ruin us both.
Austria
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:41 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Second try, the judge reply never came....
> It would be nasty one to me and a huge factor to imbalance (is this
> correct opposite to balance?) the game in favour of France solo.
Imbalance is fine, and you're right, it would give France
some considerable advantage. What strikes me as odd is that
France isn't arguing in favour of it at all, he's staying
very neutral indeed.
> To be honest I don't know. I believe that Keith is most likely going to
> make a supported attack against Tyrolia. That is why I would like to
> support Tyr hold and it couldn't tap Bohemia.
Wouldn't Ven - Tri do just as good as supporting Tyr? It cuts support
if Vie is doing the attacking and TAKES TRI if Vie supports Tri
into Tyl. Well, unless Bud or Ser follow up into Tri but in that
case you're in Gre or I'm in Rum for sure.
> Adam whatever you decide to do with Sevastopol. I would appreciate if you
> could tell me it in advance. My goal is I solo :-), IR and then FIR. I
> believe the only really possible ones are F solo and FIR.
I hate it when I don't really want to get involved in a fight
but both sides are pressuring me so hard that I think I
really have to choose a side. Still, I guess it can only
speed up the game and get me more in control either way.
Adam......
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:43 2002
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
I'm sorry I've been so silent. Between work and family sickness, I have had
almost zero time for diplomacy. The only one I kept in touch with was Rod;
we agreed that he would take Belgium while I take Norway.
The best thing for me, obviously, would be for you to move towards Rod and
Keith move towards Adam (assuming you and Keith are still working together).
If that sounds good to you, I'll do my best against Adam while keeping my
navy alive for future use against Rod.
Also, if I do disband this year, it will probably be an army. Write if you
can. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:44 2002
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I have no clue where this game stands. I've been out of commision for three
weeks or so. Last we talked, I offered you Belgium while I promised to
attack Norway.
My moves this season are up in the air right now except for the attack on
Norway.
Write if you can; I suspect AIR are consipiring to eliminate me as quickly
as possible, but there is still a bit of paranoia out there. :)
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:45 2002
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Sorry about the silence; my fault.
I'd like to talk a bit before the moves, but it looks like we're the odd men
out right now. From what I understand, you're going to lose Sev and Norway
while only picking up Berlin. That puts both of us down one while Rod and
Raine or Keith growing by one.
Plus, you'll get way stretched out. Please write if you can. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:46 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Third try, the judge reply never came again!
> It would be nasty one to me and a huge factor to imbalance (is this
> correct opposite to balance?) the game in favour of France solo.
Imbalance is fine, and you're right, it would give France
some considerable advantage. What strikes me as odd is that
France isn't arguing in favour of it at all, he's staying
very neutral indeed.
> To be honest I don't know. I believe that Keith is most likely going to
> make a supported attack against Tyrolia. That is why I would like to
> support Tyr hold and it couldn't tap Bohemia.
Wouldn't Ven - Tri do just as good as supporting Tyr? It cuts support
if Vie is doing the attacking and TAKES TRI if Vie supports Tri
into Tyl. Well, unless Bud or Ser follow up into Tri but in that
case you're in Gre or I'm in Rum for sure.
> Adam whatever you decide to do with Sevastopol. I would appreciate if you
> could tell me it in advance. My goal is I solo :-), IR and then FIR. I
> believe the only really possible ones are F solo and FIR.
I hate it when I don't really want to get involved in a fight
but both sides are pressuring me so hard that I think I
really have to choose a side. Still, I guess it can only
speed up the game and get me more in control either way.
Adam......
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:47 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Russia in 'gutsy':
TEST TEST
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:49 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> I've been out of commision for three weeks or so.
Welcome back!
> I have no clue where this game stands.
It seems rather chaotic right now. I'm rather anxious to see what happens in the east.
> Last we talked, I offered you Belgium
That was mighty generous of you, seeing as I was guaranteed to take it anyway. ;-)
> I suspect AIR are consipiring to eliminate me as quickly
> as possible, but there is still a bit of paranoia out there.
There seems to be a lot of friction between A/I. They both claim to be going to
war with each other, but that might just be for show. FWIW, Keith told me that
Adam asked him to tap Boh, but he claims he'll be too busy dealing with Italy.
Rod
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:50 2002
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Yep, that was mighty generous of me, wasn't it? :)
Keith did ask me if I minded vie - boh. I said vie - gal or vie - tyr would
be better. Raine and I have written a couple of times lately, but I'm still
not sure where he stands. I have to believe, though, that AI is still
pretty solid and Adam will lose Sev this fall. Or, if he does keep it,
we'll know how AIR is sorting out. :)
As for me, I'd like to get FG back on track, but I understand your concerns
that led to FR cooperation. If you have the time, I'd like to talk this out
a bit more. Now that you have a build in Belgium and Adam and I are totally
entangled, a move back to the Med makes good sense. Or, do you consider me
the big threat for your solo. LOL.
Actually, you probably just want my centers; that's how France wins, right?
LOL again.
Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:51 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Lordy, I'm not sure what's happening here. I suspect
that mail FROM the judge isn't getting to me, even
though mail from my other account gets to me no problem.
Weird. Anyway, fourth try?
> It would be nasty one to me and a huge factor to imbalance (is this
> correct opposite to balance?) the game in favour of France solo.
Imbalance is fine, and you're right, it would give France
some considerable advantage. What strikes me as odd is that
France isn't arguing in favour of it at all, he's staying
very neutral indeed.
> To be honest I don't know. I believe that Keith is most likely going to
> make a supported attack against Tyrolia. That is why I would like to
> support Tyr hold and it couldn't tap Bohemia.
Wouldn't Ven - Tri do just as good as supporting Tyr? It cuts support
if Vie is doing the attacking and TAKES TRI if Vie supports Tri
into Tyl. Well, unless Bud or Ser follow up into Tri but in that
case you're in Gre or I'm in Rum for sure.
> Adam whatever you decide to do with Sevastopol. I would appreciate if you
> could tell me it in advance. My goal is I solo :-), IR and then FIR. I
> believe the only really possible ones are F solo and FIR.
I hate it when I don't really want to get involved in a fight
but both sides are pressuring me so hard that I think I
really have to choose a side. Still, I guess it can only
speed up the game and get me more in control either way.
Adam......
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:52 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> If you feel you need to move into Bohemia, I understand, but I'd much prefer
> you move to Galicia. If I have mis-read Rod and FR is solid against me, I
> rather have your offense than your defense.
My moves are not offensive against you, don't worry.
Do you think that France is going to move back against Italy? France
tells me that he has no such plans, even though I've requested that he
move back.
Austria
From - Mon Jan 07 17:38:54 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Actually, what are you doing with Bohemia? I don't actually want to
enter Bohemia, because then Italy might move to Vienna. If you can tell
me, let me know. I should tell you that Russia has asked me to cut your
support in Bohemia, and I am wanting to do it, especially if it does not
disrupt your plans.
Austria
From - Mon Jan 07 18:55:04 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Sorry about the silence; my fault.
I guess you're still busy. I think that quietness probably
had something to do with France and I moving against you
in the end, but only a minor part.
> I'd like to talk a bit before the moves, but it looks like we're the odd men
> out right now. From what I understand, you're going to lose Sev and Norway
> while only picking up Berlin.
Well, depends on a lot of things. I think I should be able to
stay even at least, but it's tricky. How are you going to defend
Nth and Den and Kie and Hol and take Norway at the same time for
instance? We're guessing against each other quite a bit there,
but then Berlin isn't certain either.
> That puts both of us down one while Rod and
> Raine or Keith growing by one.
> Plus, you'll get way stretched out. Please write if you can. Thanks.
Being stretched out is a worry, yeah, especially since Austria
and Italy both seem determined to get me into a southern battle
as well as the northern one, but it's been a difficult position
ever since Raine didn't attack Austria when I wanted him to.
I think the judge was down for an hour or so there, I was
expecting a reply and sent the same message to Raine three
times in frustration, it may be responding slowly so we
probably haven't got long to talk, even if I wasn't going to
bed in about an hour and a half.
Adam........
From - Tue Jan 08 22:24:18 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> Now that you have a build in Belgium and Adam and I are totally
> entangled, a move back to the Med makes good sense.
Yes, I've been contemplating this. I'm hoping Raine will push east a
little more before I stab him. (Assuming there really is strife between
him and Keith.)
> Or, do you consider me the big threat for your solo.
Actually, I considered *you* the threat to solo - but I guess if AIR are
going to stop you then I need not worry about it so much. :-)
> Actually, you probably just want my centers; that's how France wins, right?
Wait, let me count - (...16, 17, 18.) Yeah, I guess I do need yours!
;-)
Rod
From - Tue Jan 08 22:24:19 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> I know, I am curious, please forgive me :-)
We've agreed that Adam will be the first to make gains in the German
heartland, since I'm getting Bel and he's likely to lose Nwy.
Rod
From - Tue Jan 08 22:24:35 2002
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
LOL. Yep, you count very well. :)
I think a peaceful move this turn is the best for both of us. I'll attack
Norway and do my best to keep Berlin. I think my interests are aligned well
with Keith's regarding Russia and from what I've heard, I believe Adam will
lose Sev. That pretty much leaves me with a guessing game in Kiel/Den.
I'm not sure what Raine expects (he is still a big mystery to me), but this
is a *big-time* key turn. I'll be here for a bit longer if there's anything
else we should discuss.
Thanks for being so patient. I do like working with you, Rod. Write if you
have the time.
- Steve
From - Tue Jan 08 22:24:35 2002
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi,
Bohemia is doing its best to keep Berlin and Munich within the German
empire. It won't attack you and it should be out of your hair pretty soon
even if I have to disband it this winter. :)
- Steve
From - Tue Jan 08 22:24:38 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
I am so happy to hear from you! This has been a crippled game without your
press (at least to me). I hope the family sickness will he history as soon
as possible. Also I hope you'll see the gains of your effort at the work.
> almost zero time for diplomacy. The only one I kept in touch with was Rod;
> we agreed that he would take Belgium while I take Norway.
This hits me like a hammer :-( The way I see it is that Rod is going to
Very close to solo... I have assumed (wrong as I hear from you) that you
haven't been able to talk to anyone.
> The best thing for me, obviously, would be for you to move towards Rod and
> Keith move towards Adam (assuming you and Keith are still working together).
> If that sounds good to you, I'll do my best against Adam while keeping my
> navy alive for future use against Rod.
I am afraid that is not going to happen...
> Also, if I do disband this year, it will probably be an army. Write if you
> can. Thanks.
Steve I got this press of your so late (the deadline is within
minutes) that I have no time to process your info thoroughly AND change my
orders accordingly.
I have mixed feelings. I am happy that you are able to diplome. I am
unhappy about the situation. That Rod is quite a diplomat... cannot say
anything else.
Now that you are talking I can promise you that my army in Tyrolia is not
a threat to you.
I have to think hard now and list the game and see if someone hasn't got
orders in in time.
Raine
From - Tue Jan 08 22:24:40 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Good morning, I have some news for my ally (I hope this will turn out to
be true).
Germany _finally_ gave me a message. He told me that France is the only
one he has been talking with lately. I know that he has not talked to me
for ages. You know how much he has talked to you. If it is true that you
have heard nothing from him then there is a chance that FG is alive and
kicking :-(
I can see the scenario where FG have kept in contact and agreed to swap
Bel to France and Nwy to Germany. I hope I am wrong.
About your messages. I got four copies. I hope you have managed to solve
the problems. I did send this just after the deadline and just after
Austria has been told to be late.
I am thinking hard of what to do after I receiced this message from
Germany...
Raine
From - Tue Jan 08 22:24:51 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Germany _finally_ gave me a message. He told me that France is the only
> one he has been talking with lately. I know that he has not talked to me
> for ages. You know how much he has talked to you. If it is true that you
> have heard nothing from him then there is a chance that FG is alive and
> kicking :-(
He wrote to me last night too, but didn't really have a great deal
to say. I doubt he's been writing much to France either, I'm fairly
sure that France and Germany won't be cooperating this year.
> About your messages. I got four copies. I hope you have managed to solve
> the problems. I did send this just after the deadline and just after
> Austria has been told to be late.
I think the judge was down for an hour or two or something, I got replies
from all four at once just before I hit the sack.
> I am thinking hard of what to do after I receiced this message from
> Germany...
Well, as I pointed out, you don't really risk Tyr if you order Ven-Tri
and that does unlock Tyr to tap Boh for me. Have you remembered to
consider that too?
Adam.........
From - Tue Jan 08 22:24:59 2002
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
Thanks for the letter.
Yes, you are quite right; Rod is an excellent diplomat and he is the solo
threat right now. If I had stabbed Adam a couple of turns ago, I might have
been in a good position to run the board, but definitely not now. Oh well.
I'm ready to move against Rod, but I need to solve my problems with Adam
first. If you and Keith are still working together, will you be taking Sev?
That would make my life a lot easier. Once I feel safer against Russia, my
fleets can give Rod a real headache. :)
Thanks again and thank you for leaving me alone with Tyrolia.
- Steve
From - Tue Jan 08 22:25:00 2002
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1908M Tue Jan 08 2002 20:00:00 +1300
Movement results for Fall of 1908. (gutsy.031)
Austria: Army Rumania -> Bulgaria. (*bounce*)
Austria: Army Vienna -> Bohemia. (*bounce*)
Austria: Fleet Eastern Mediterranean -> Aegean Sea. (*bounce*)
Austria: Army Trieste HOLD.
Austria: Army Serbia SUPPORT Army Rumania -> Bulgaria.
Austria: Army Budapest SUPPORT Army Trieste.
France: Army Burgundy -> Munich. (*bounce*)
France: Army Edinburgh HOLD.
France: Fleet North Atlantic Ocean -> Norwegian Sea.
France: Army London HOLD.
France: Fleet English Channel -> North Sea.
France: Fleet Spain (south coast) -> Mid-Atlantic Ocean.
France: Army Belgium SUPPORT Russian Fleet Helgoland Bight -> Holland.
France: Fleet Marseilles -> Spain (south coast).
Germany: Army Holland -> Kiel. (*bounce, dislodged*)
Germany: Army Munich -> Kiel. (*bounce*)
Germany: Fleet Sweden SUPPORT Fleet Skagerrak -> Norway.
Germany: Fleet Skagerrak -> Norway.
Germany: Fleet North Sea -> Denmark.
Germany: Army Bohemia SUPPORT Army Berlin -> Silesia. (*cut*)
Germany: Army Berlin -> Silesia. (*bounce, dislodged*)
Italy: Army Bulgaria SUPPORT Fleet Ionian Sea -> Greece. (*cut*)
Italy: Army Venice SUPPORT Army Tyrolia.
Italy: Fleet Black Sea SUPPORT Army Bulgaria.
Italy: Fleet Aegean Sea SUPPORT Fleet Ionian Sea -> Greece. (*cut*)
Italy: Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea -> Ionian Sea.
Italy: Army Tyrolia HOLD.
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea -> Greece.
Italy: Fleet Naples -> Apulia.
Russia: Fleet Helgoland Bight -> Holland.
Russia: Army Sevastopol -> Armenia.
Russia: Army Prussia SUPPORT Army Silesia -> Berlin.
Russia: Army Norway SUPPORT German Fleet Skagerrak -> Sweden. (*void, dislodged*)
Russia: Army Silesia -> Berlin.
The following units were dislodged:
The German Army in Holland can retreat to Ruhr.
The German Army in Berlin with no valid retreats was destroyed.
The Russian Army in Norway can retreat to Finland or St Petersburg.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Retreats for Fall of 1908.
The deadline for orders will be Thu Jan 10 2002 03:06:00 +1300.
From - Tue Jan 08 22:25:01 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
FYI, it seems Steve expects you to lose Sev, based on his conversations with Keith.
Whether this second-hand information is reliable is debatable.
He also says that he'll attack Nwy and try to protect Ber. And, Keith "asked" him
if Vie-Boh would be alright, and he responded that he preferred otherwise.
Or so he says. Whether this ought to change our plans, I don't know. It all depends
on Keith's true intentions.
I think you should negotiate for both Austria and Italy to tap Boh, hold in Sev,
and see what happens - but it's your call.
Rod
From - Tue Jan 08 22:25:02 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
I don't understand. Why didn't you tell me not to move to Boh? This is
why I asked you. I thought I made it clear that I didn't want to move
there if it would affect you.
Austria
From - Tue Jan 08 22:25:03 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
I sent my last message before I had received the move results. It seems my email
is a little slow today - and my fears were unfounded. :-)
Rod
From - Tue Jan 08 22:25:04 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
It is clear to me that France will win this game unless things change
quickly. Italy will make slow progress against me, but no one will be
able to stop France. Russia will be too weak in the North once you are
gone, and I won't be able to help him keep France out of the German centers.
I have tried pointing this out to Italy to no avail. Perhaps you could
work on him too.
Austria
From - Tue Jan 08 22:25:05 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Good work! Except the Sev-Arm... Grr...
This season gives all the player a new view to gutsy. I don't mind your
move to Armenia. It only makes it certain that I have not enough time to
go to defend against Rod. You must be sure that I don't give solo to Rod
:-) Let's see. Certainly my solo dreams are gone now, well they never
were realistic anyway.
I don't know how you are going to prevent the French solo. But I can give
you my view:
-I am not defending against you, if you think you can alone prevent French
solo, fine.
-I will concentrate against Austria with all I got.
-I hope you'll retreat to Finland (that is a nice place BTW :-) and build
a fleet in Stp.
Adam, at least I was honest with my press, right? I hope you can trust me
more now. I still see the same way I saw before the moves: FIR or F solo.
You can believe in AI war now, right? Would you like to join on my side?
If you do, you can show it already in your retreat. Next spring I'll
promise to move away from Black Sea (and NOT to Sevastopol).
Raine
From - Tue Jan 08 22:25:09 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
That worked out rather well! We each get a build, A/I are fighting, and Germany
is on the decline. :-) Situations change rather quickly in this game!
Rod
From - Tue Jan 08 22:25:10 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
Keith,
I'm glad to see you and Adam cooperating against Raine. That might just make him
an attractive target. ;-)
If you retain the fleet, perhaps Adam will agree to support you to Smy.
Rod
From - Tue Jan 08 22:25:11 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
Actually, it was FR who were conspiring against you. At least we now know what's
up with AI.
Rod
From - Tue Jan 08 22:25:12 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
Adam seemed receptive to FIR, but it appears he has other plans. At least you got
a build. :-)
Things might get tricky in Turkey, but if you make some good guesses you should be
OK.
I think our DMZ will work out rather well for us. I had planned to maintain a
presence in Spa(sc), but since you moved F TyS east I can feel safe about withdrawing
further. If you'd like to expand our DMZ to include Spa and TyS, I'll move Spa-MAO,
MAO-Eng. That would put me in good position to pressure both G and R in the north
while you deal with AR in the south. Let me know what you think of this.
Rod
From - Tue Jan 08 22:25:13 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> I'm glad to see you and Adam cooperating against Raine. That might just make him
an attractive target. ;-)
>
> If you retain the fleet, perhaps Adam will agree to support you to Smy.
Yes, I see the need to keep my fleet. Otherwise, Italy will be able to
protect himself from you, and I won't have any chance.
If you want to have some chance against Italy, I think you ought to
attack him while I still have my fleet. The fleet won't last long,
perhaps not another year. If Italy builds an army, you will be able to
take Tunis this coming year.
Austria
From - Tue Jan 08 22:25:20 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
It seems that R's don't include country names, only forenames. I'll try to
do my best in east, if I fail it should give you a very good chance for
solo. Then you deserve it after allying with me :-)
> Adam seemed receptive to FIR, but it appears he has other plans.
> At least you got a build. :-)
Yes, build is always good to have :-) Did you know in advance about Adam's
intention to move to Armenia? I am not offended if you did and you did not
tell me 'cause in a way it is my fault, I did not ask.
> Things might get tricky in Turkey, but if you make some good guesses you
> should be OK.
I think, I can manage to do well in there. I always try to be optimistic.
:-)
> I think our DMZ will work out rather well for us. I had planned to maintain
> a presence in Spa(sc), but since you moved F TyS east I can feel safe
> about withdrawing further. If you'd like to expand our DMZ to include
> Spa and TyS, I'll move Spa-MAO,
> MAO-Eng. That would put me in good position to pressure both G and R
> in the north while you deal with AR in the south. Let me know what you
> think of this.
I'd be happy to include Spa and Tys to our DMZ. Could you add Mar there
too?
Oh, by the way just in case one of us is not able to get solo, could we
agree that it is FI 2 way draw? :-)
(Finland is shortened as FI :-)
You'd have
France 3
Iberia 2
Germany 3
Lowlands 2
England 3
Scandinavia 3
and StP 1
--------------
Sum: 17
I'll take the rest :-)
Do we have a deal?
Raine
From - Tue Jan 08 22:25:23 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
It is so great to have one more person to talk to :-)
You really got me thinking when you told that you have been talking with
Rod while not talking with others. For awhile I was so confused...
> Yes, you are quite right; Rod is an excellent diplomat and he is the solo
> threat right now. If I had stabbed Adam a couple of turns ago, I might have
> been in a good position to run the board, but definitely not now. Oh well.
I understand. I was so worried when FR started to threaten you and you did
not write to me. Sometimes real life can keep us busy, I know it for sure.
I was busy too. I managed to write a letter or two every now and then to
people. That made me suspicious of some clever plan between FG to break to
AI alliance (this is high rated game afterall). Well, AI alliance was
broken when Austrian fleet was no more needed to hold Rod in Med. That
gave too much tension between us (AI) :-( We couldn't get to agreement how
to hande Keith's fleet in peace. I tried many things to get him to disband
it when I dislodge it. Keith was adamant and asked me to give Bulgaria to
him in exchange. Oh well, everything went wrong after that with AI.
I wrote one letter accidentally to Keith that was meant to Rod :-( There
was nothing serious just usual chatting and normal suggestion to attack
here and there. I think I took my mailing accident more serious than Keith
or Rod. Anyway it was one more reason to believe that I don't really know
what was going on.
> I'm ready to move against Rod, but I need to solve my problems with Adam
> first. If you and Keith are still working together, will you be taking Sev?
As you can see the co-operation is hardly the correct word :-|
> Thanks again and thank you for leaving me alone with Tyrolia.
Steve, I am willing to help you as much as I can. Just don't ask for too
much and I'll help you. My motivation is clear: France is about to solo.
I have as many SC's as Rod but my position is weak compared to his. Russia
is helping Rod and working against me.
No matter what is going to happen with retreats and builds, I am not going
to support anyone against you. I am not going to move against you. My army
in Tyrolia is there to defend against AR.
Steve, may I ask you to retreat to Ruh instead of disband? Maybe you'll do
it anyway but in case you want to disband your dislodged army could you
1st retreat to Ruh and then disband it?
Steve, I am open to strange manouvers now. If you ask me to support you to
Boh and to cut Tri S Vie I am happy to do it. I understand that you are
likely to have other plans but I want you to know that I am willing to
help you that way.
Raine
From - Tue Jan 08 22:25:29 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> It seems that R's don't include country names, only forenames.
I think you're right about that. :-)
> Did you know in advance about Adam's
> intention to move to Armenia?
He told me that Keith had suggested it, but I didn't think we was going to do it.
> I'd be happy to include Spa and Tys to our DMZ. Could you add Mar there
> too?
Yes, of course. :-)
> Oh, by the way just in case one of us is not able to get solo, could we
> agree that it is FI 2 way draw? :-)
I think that's an excellent idea! I've always wanted to be in a two-way, but never
managed to accomplish it. (Though the last time I tried for a two-way I ended up
winning instead, so I guess I should not complain.) ;-) A two-way FI certainly looks
like a feasible outcome.
Rod
From - Wed Jan 09 16:40:35 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> > I'd be happy to include Spa and Tys to our DMZ. Could you add Mar there
> > too?
>
> Yes, of course. :-)
Let me summarize our DMZ:
Spa
Mar
Pie
Lyo
Wes
Naf
Tys
Did I remember correctly? (should I say correct or correctly?)
> I think that's an excellent idea! I've always wanted to be in a two-way,
> but never managed to accomplish it. (Though the last time I tried for a
> two-way I ended up winning instead, so I guess I should not
> complain.) ;-) A two-way FI certainly looks
> like a feasible outcome.
I have been once in a two-way. I played Turkey. It was a race for solo
with E and neither of us had a chance to solo in the end. It was a
pure/clear non-carebear two-way :-)
Raine
From - Wed Jan 09 16:40:36 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
I am not saying that current situation, where France seems to head for
solo, is your fault. I won't say it is my fault either. I'd say that it is
the result of our bad diploming.
> It is all very simple. You are the agressor here, not me, and if this
> continues, you will ruin us both.
I think it is very simple too. I don't see myself as agressor. I see us
both 'guilty' to current situation. We should have had an agreement of
some sort before the last couple of moves and we did not.
I agree with you that if this continues it will ruin us both. How should
we go on? One thing is clear, we should talk us out of this situation.
I am willing to not attack you if you get rid of your fleet. Let's face it
I cannot really harm you even if I could be sure that France wouldn't
stab me and even if I could _concentrate_ on attacking you without
thinking of Frence solo.
I am willing to plan the future with you. We both see the same way: AI war
leads to French solo. I think that AGI is the key to prevent French solo.
Now that Steve has more time to diplome there should be chance for AGI to
really get somewhere.
Raine
From - Wed Jan 09 16:40:45 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> Let me summarize our DMZ:
> Spa
> Mar
> Pie
> Lyo
> Wes
> Naf
> Tys
>
> Did I remember correctly? (should I say correct or correctly?)
Yes, I believe that's correct. You remembered correctly. :-)
Will you agree to keep fleets out of Tus and Tun as well?
> I have been once in a two-way. I played Turkey. It was a race for solo
> with E and neither of us had a chance to solo in the end.
I think E/T is probably the easiest two-way, because they're unlikely to come
into conflict with each other. Everybody else needs DMZs.
Rod
From - Wed Jan 09 16:40:53 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> That worked out rather well! We each get a build, A/I are
> fighting, and Germany is on the decline. :-) Situations
> change rather quickly in this game!
Yeah, we're looking okay for the moment. Italy has told
me that he intends to ignore my attack and keep a line
against you. He thinks his best chance of survival will
be being on your border when you make a solo bid I think.
He may be right.
Adam.........
From - Wed Jan 09 16:40:57 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Good work! Except the Sev-Arm... Grr...
Yeah, sorry, I pretty much had to agree with Austria to do
that when you refused to tap Boh for me, I hinted all I could
without actually giving you an ultimateum.
> This season gives all the player a new view to gutsy. I don't mind your
> move to Armenia. It only makes it certain that I have not enough time to
> go to defend against Rod. You must be sure that I don't give solo to Rod
> :-) Let's see. Certainly my solo dreams are gone now, well they never
> were realistic anyway.
Rod's the guy to be looking out for, certainly, but there's
a while to go yet. He's only half way to that magic 18 even now.
> -I am not defending against you, if you think you can alone prevent French
> solo, fine.
> -I will concentrate against Austria with all I got.
> -I hope you'll retreat to Finland (that is a nice place BTW :-) and build
> a fleet in Stp.
Unfortunately, even if I were to press for peace with you I'll be
needing a unit in Sev to ensure that you don't take advantage of
my position there now. I'll keep pressing Germany with France though,
don't worry about that. I need to get my fair share up there.
> If you do, you can show it already in your retreat. Next spring I'll
> promise to move away from Black Sea (and NOT to Sevastopol).
Thing is, at least two centers in Turkey were mine anyway as
I recall, taking them back can't REALLY be agression can it,
I'm just returning your favour. Heh.
Adam.......
From - Wed Jan 09 16:41:00 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
I am keeping my fleet for now. I will wait to see some peaceful action
from you rather than just peaceful words. Remember, you are attacking
me. You are taking my centers rather than the other way around.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 09 16:41:03 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Thanks for the help in english :-)
> Will you agree to keep fleets out of Tus and Tun as well?
Yes, if you agree to keep fleets out of Mao and Por. Deal?
Raine
From - Wed Jan 09 16:41:04 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Alea acta est :-)
Seriously, I think we have no chance to beat Rod if we are going to spend
much time in eastern waters. I _will_ hunt your fleet as long as needed.
I am not going to bother to defend against Rod if you are going to tease
me as much as you can.
Raine - who is still hoping to see your fleet disbanded next winter
From - Wed Jan 09 16:41:05 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Alea acta est :-)
I can't read latin (or whatever).
> Seriously, I think we have no chance to beat Rod if we are going to spend
> much time in eastern waters. I _will_ hunt your fleet as long as needed.
> I am not going to bother to defend against Rod if you are going to tease
> me as much as you can.
We both know that you will be able to destroy me *and* defend against
France if I disband my fleet. I don't think you will throw the game to
France, and I am hoping you are forced to defend yourself against him
before you have been able to eliminate me.
What you call teasing you, I call a fight for my survival.
Austria
From - Wed Jan 09 16:41:06 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> Yeah, sorry, I pretty much had to agree with Austria to do
> that when you refused to tap Boh for me, I hinted all I could
> without actually giving you an ultimateum.
I don't see your point. It is ok to you that Rod solos? Feel free to take
as many centers from me as you wish, but my navy is not used against Rod
in that case. I have no motivation to help people to have draw where I am
not included.
> Rod's the guy to be looking out for, certainly, but there's
> a while to go yet. He's only half way to that magic 18 even now.
I know. I also know that you cannot defend against him in north and I
ain't working against Rod in south if I have no hope of survival. It
really isn't hard to tell the future from now on.
> Unfortunately, even if I were to press for peace with you I'll be
> needing a unit in Sev to ensure that you don't take advantage of
> my position there now. I'll keep pressing Germany with France though,
> don't worry about that. I need to get my fair share up there.
I don't raise a finger against you (is there a saying like that meaning
that I am not going to do anything against you ?) Sevastopol is not going
to be mine in this game. I don't even think about it.
> Thing is, at least two centers in Turkey were mine anyway as
> I recall, taking them back can't REALLY be agression can it,
> I'm just returning your favour. Heh.
I _DO_ let you take the centers from Turkey if you like. BUT in that case
I will give Rod a solo. There ain't survival for me in there if you go
against me. I'll defend against Keith and not against you. I'll attack
against Keith and not against you.
Raine
From - Wed Jan 09 16:41:08 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Italy has told
> me that he intends to ignore my attack and keep a line
> against you.
That's not exactly what he told me, but I guess that's to be expected. :-)
Rod
From - Wed Jan 09 16:41:10 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> > Will you agree to keep fleets out of Tus and Tun as well?
>
> Yes, if you agree to keep fleets out of Mao and Por. Deal?
Yes, that sounds equitable - but of course I'll have to move F Spa through MAO to
get it out of the DMZ.
Rod
From - Wed Jan 09 16:41:11 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> > Alea acta est :-)
>
> I can't read latin (or whatever).
Yes, it is latin. It is told that Caesar said those words when he crossed
the river and went to fight to be the leader of Rome. Senate has made it
clear that Caesar is not aloud to cross the river.
> We both know that you will be able to destroy me *and* defend against
> France if I disband my fleet. I don't think you will throw the game to
> France, and I am hoping you are forced to defend yourself against him
> before you have been able to eliminate me.
Keith, I understand that you are a very good tactician. I'm not. I
understand that you might be able to do those things as Italy in gutsy,
now. Your hope is wrong. I am not going to spent a lot of time and effort
in seeing the evitable to happen. I'll expect Tunis to be the 18th center
for Rod...
> What you call teasing you, I call a fight for my survival.
By disbanding your fleet we could make that AGI work that we have been
talking about for the whole game. Have I been the only one who has been
serious about it?
Raine
From - Wed Jan 09 16:41:13 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> Yes, that sounds equitable - but of course I'll have to move F Spa
> through MAO to get it out of the DMZ.
That is reasonable. When you do that we have a deal.
Raine
From - Wed Jan 09 16:41:14 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I talked with Keith. He has this idea that I can both eliminate him and
defend against France. Well, I am not as good tactician as Keith is. Keith
might be able to do that if he was in my position now.
I am sure he is telling you the same. I mean, that I am able to both kick
Keith out of the game and to defend against France. That is the only way
he can get you to attack me.
What is the difference to you if you attack me or not?
-if you don't attack we are going to have FIR (most likely)
-if you attack me what are you going to have?
Raine
From - Wed Jan 09 16:41:16 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> > > Alea acta est :-)
> >
> > I can't read latin (or whatever).
>
> Yes, it is latin. It is told that Caesar said those words when he crossed
> the river and went to fight to be the leader of Rome. Senate has made it
> clear that Caesar is not aloud to cross the river.
Oh, I see. Alea iacta est: the die is cast (there is no turning back).
> Keith, I understand that you are a very good tactician.
Not good enough, obviously. I worked hard to get France to withdraw and
attack Germany. I was convinced that you saw the danger France posed,
and that you would attack him. Instead, you want to try to eliminate me
and give France the opportunity to win in doing so. I don't understand.
> > What you call teasing you, I call a fight for my survival.
>
> By disbanding your fleet we could make that AGI work that we have been
> talking about for the whole game. Have I been the only one who has been
> serious about it?
I am all for AGI. Show me the money. Make moves to that effect.
Otherwise, if I am going to be eliminated, I would rather see France
win. Then at least I will be able to tell you "I told you so", what
little comfort that will be. You have embarked on a dangerous course.
Be prepared for the consequences.
Austria
From - Thu Jan 10 05:14:15 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> I am all for AGI. Show me the money. Make moves to that effect.
> Otherwise, if I am going to be eliminated, I would rather see France
> win. Then at least I will be able to tell you "I told you so", what
> little comfort that will be. You have embarked on a dangerous course.
> Be prepared for the consequences.
My view is that I told you to disband the fleet when I dislodged it. You
made unclear demands for doing so. You wanted to have Bulgaria in order to
do it. That was too much. In that sence I can tell you "I told you so". I
do see that France is about to win. I don't get much satisfaction out of F
solo and neither from telling you that "I told so". You should have been
aware of the consequences too. You still can change the course by
disbanding the fleet. I am not going to continue to ask you to do it. You
have the power now (like you had when you where deciding to retreat to
Eas). To my eyes _you_ are making the decision.
To my eyes you had this unclearly defined 'not a single move but the set
of moves where hostile'. Even that the moves had been discussed earlier
and you had suggested some of them.
Do you think it is unrealistic view of future that you remove your fleet
and we make AGI triple alliance? If so, face consequences.
Raine
From - Thu Jan 10 17:09:38 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith
I noticed that my last note to you wasn't much constructive. I am not
blaming you for the current situation. I am not taking it as my fault
either. I'd say that we have both been unable to avoid the current
tension.
I'd like to discuss with you about the possibilities we have. I mean, the
possibilities to talk us out of this situation. What are the actions you
would like me to do? I understand that you want me out of Bulgaria and you
know that I'd like you to remove your fleet. Maybe we could talk more of
this?
About throwing the game.
I don't like it. I don't know how people define 'to trow the game'. What I
have in mind if we cannot talk us out of conflict is to not actively help
Rod to win but not to defend against him either. I would like to see the
situation where I wouldn't have to show you that I am serious.
So, I ask you to discuss about how to prevent the conflict between us. We
have nothing to lose if we try to avoid the conflict.
Raine
From - Thu Jan 10 17:09:50 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
I would also like to call off the hostilities, but you need to make the
first move. I am keeping my fleet. I am in a position now such that, if
I remove the fleet, I know I will be eliminated. If I keep the fleet,
perhaps France will win if you continue to attack me, but hopefully you
will eventually see this, or will be forced to pull back in order to
prevent France's winning.
Austria
From - Thu Jan 10 17:09:52 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
If Italy keeps attacking me, Austria will fall eventually. I would like
to make you a proposition. If you help support me against Italy, I will
try to make it such that when it is necessary that I lose a supply
center, I will try to make sure you are the one who gets it rather than
Italy. What do you think? I know you might be tempted simply to invade
Austria, but if this happens, Italy is likely to get the upper hand
quickly, and I think he will be able to overrun you before you will have
time to put the necessary units in place to defend your holdings.
I know you don't have too many units to devote to the defense of Austria,
but a couple of your units, even just attacking Turkey, could do wonders.
Let me know what you think.
Austria
From - Thu Jan 10 21:44:35 2002
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1908R Thu Jan 10 2002 03:06:00 +1300
Retreat orders for Fall of 1908. (gutsy.032)
Germany: Army Holland -> Ruhr.
Russia: Army Norway -> St Petersburg.
Ownership of supply centers:
Austria: Budapest, Rumania, Serbia, Trieste, Vienna.
France: Belgium, Brest, Edinburgh, Liverpool, London, Marseilles, Paris,
Portugal, Spain.
Germany: Denmark, Kiel, Munich, Norway, Sweden.
Italy: Ankara, Bulgaria, Constantinople, Greece, Naples, Rome, Smyrna,
Tunis, Venice.
Russia: Berlin, Holland, Moscow, Sevastopol, St Petersburg, Warsaw.
Austria: 5 Supply centers, 6 Units: Removes 1 unit.
England: 0 Supply centers, 0 Units: Builds 0 units.
France: 9 Supply centers, 8 Units: Builds 1 unit.
Germany: 5 Supply centers, 6 Units: Removes 1 unit.
Italy: 9 Supply centers, 8 Units: Builds 1 unit.
Russia: 6 Supply centers, 5 Units: Builds 1 unit.
Turkey: 0 Supply centers, 0 Units: Builds 0 units.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Adjustments for Winter of 1908.
The deadline for orders will be Sat Jan 12 2002 13:56:06 +1300.
From - Fri Jan 11 05:24:23 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi, will you consider building a fleet in Sevastopol? I think if so
you're likely to get many of the Turkish centers. It seems to me another
army in Warsaw would not be useful for you, and you and France seem to
have Scandinavia taken care of.
Thoughts?
Austria
From - Fri Jan 11 05:24:26 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi, I have been looking at the map. Here are some thoughts. If you keep
attacking me, I am pretty sure that I can keep you bogged down for quite
some time, and you will need to use most if not all of your units against
me to stamp me out. Meanwhile, if I have to lose supply centers, I will
try to give them (and some of yours, if possible) to Russia. You have a
lot of fleets that are not particularly useful against Austria.
Now, look at Germany. Look how the French units are positioned. Germany
is on the verge of collapse. France has no need to move Mid and Spa
against Germany. Russia and France have Germany in some dire straights
indeed.
The problem is that Russia will not be able to protect the German
holdings against France. As we have discussed, France has a good chance
of winning. Do you want him to win? What is your agreement with him?
If you move your fleets any further east, he will take Tunis and soon
thereafter perhaps some of the Italian home centers. Certainly with my
help Venice could be threatened (wait until France gets into Munich).
I am still not sure why you attacked me in the first place. Did you feel
threatened by me, that I was about to gobble up all of your supply
centers? Did you feel that you could quickly enough take my centers such
that you would be able to build enough units to fend off France? Or did
France put you up to this?
The current strategies will get us both nowhere. Why not pursue
different strategies? Russia's units are scattered far and wide, and he
presents himself as a vulnerable target. Imagine convoying Bulgaria to
Sevastopol with my support in the Spring. Imagine moving your fleets
west. Imagine building another fleet. If you don't, you see that France
can move to take Tunis. If you do build a fleet, you will probably
anyway start a war with France. Why not make it a total war?
If we attack Russia, and you attack France, perhaps we can save what is
left of Germany. We only need to get Munich, Warsaw and Moscow, along
with keeping Tunis, to ensure ourselves parts in a draw. I assume that
you are playing for a draw at this point. I certainly see no way that I
can win at this point. If you try to form some draw that excludes me, I
believe that I can cause you enough trouble to make a French solo a real
possibility. France turned against Germany. Why won't he turn against
you at the earliest opportunity?
I am a wounded animal, and I have not yet begun to fight. Why not pursue
a course of action that leads to an assured draw rather than the risky
strategy you are pursuing now? I am certainly no threat to you. What is
your preferred outcome for this game? And if that outcome does not
include Austria, do you think it is worth the risk?
I know you don't like my fleet, but it is the only card I have left to
play, and without a secure boarder, it is necessary if I am to have any
leverage for my defense. Without it, you could ignore me. What would
you do in my situation? Surely you too would not go down without a fight.
Austria
From - Fri Jan 11 18:34:24 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> -if you don't attack we are going to have FIR (most likely)
> -if you attack me what are you going to have?
Well, it makes a Russian solo slightly more likely as well
as a French one. Admitedly the French solo is vastly more
probable. Possible draws would be France/Russia in a two
way - again pretty unlikely, FIR with you as a small balance
power in the endgame or FAR with both me and France too
scared to attack Austria for fear he'd throw his centers
to the other.
Besides, I've already stabbed everyone except you and
France. I'd have probably stabbed France if he wasn't
so far away. It was your turn. Heh.
Adam..........
From - Fri Jan 11 18:34:30 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> That's not exactly what he told me, but I guess that's to be expected. :-)
He's complaining that I'm giving you a solo by attacking
Italy. I think he's right that I'm increasing the chances
of it. Austria is saying that so long as I try to help
him he'll throw his centers at me rather than Italy. Not
sure that we'd actually lose that battle so there may
not be any centers for him to give but Turkey looks
ripe.
We should decide a split of the German centers really.
Scandanavia for me, Munich and Hol for you while Hol
moves over to Kie looks about as Fair and equitiable
at first glance as we're likely to get. How's it sound
to you?
Adam..........
From - Fri Jan 11 18:34:32 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> If Italy keeps attacking me, Austria will fall eventually. I would like
> to make you a proposition. If you help support me against Italy, I will
> try to make it such that when it is necessary that I lose a supply
> center, I will try to make sure you are the one who gets it rather than
> Italy. What do you think? I know you might be tempted simply to invade
> Austria, but if this happens, Italy is likely to get the upper hand
> quickly, and I think he will be able to overrun you before you will have
> time to put the necessary units in place to defend your holdings.
>
> will you consider building a fleet in Sevastopol? I think if so
> you're likely to get many of the Turkish centers. It seems to me another
> army in Warsaw would not be useful for you, and you and France seem to
> have Scandinavia taken care of.
When I moved to Arm I did so taking a risk, if I was unable to
build in Sev than it would have been a mistake. I am able,
and willing to make Sev my build and a fleet there makes
more sense than an army.
I'll do what I can with F sev and A Arm to help you out
against Italy, and take your centers only when it's
either that or lose some to Italy.
Adam.........
From - Fri Jan 11 18:34:33 2002
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Master in 'gutsy':
> It is time for end of year statements, if you are so willing.
Not a great deal to explain I don't think, continued the
attack on Germany with a little more success than I'd
hoped for even. Given that success I'm able to build
a new unit this year which is good news. In order to
get this build though, I needed Austria or Italy to
agree to tap Boh's support so I could get into Berlin.
Austria agreed and Italy refused but I could still
have stabbed Austria if I'd decided to. I decided to
support Austria against Italy though, even though
I'm fully aware that in doing so I'm increasing the
chances of a French solo. Probably increasing them
substantially. The thing to keep in mind is that this
is now the only effect. Assuming I can take the three
Turkish centers, and that France and I share equally
in the German centers that are left, we'll both have
the same number of SC's. It's not only Frances chance
of a solo I'm increasing, it's also Russia chances.
Now France has a considerable lead. He's definately
favourite for a solo, but if you're playing for the
win then you have to take some risks. Hopefully, if
the risk doesn't pay off I'll notice in time to
give Italy the support he needs and cut Austria off
leading to the three way Italy is pushing anyway.
More hopefully, I'll take Turkey and Austria and
France and I will battle for the 18th center in
Germany and Italy and I'll be the one to get it.
We can dream.
Adam.........
From - Fri Jan 11 18:34:35 2002
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Russian solo?
Never. How would you do better than France in north? Especially when you
don't build there. In south you aren't going to have enough fleets.
FR 2 way?
No way. You don't have the fleets in south. In north you don't manage to
keep Stp. Remember to count to 17.
FIR?
Italy as minor? Possible, but I am not going to be happy about it. Of all
you suggested (where you survive) this is the most likely.
FAR?
South is your problem. You don't have the fleets in there. Other problem
you have a hostile Italy in there who is happy to help France to solo when
he realizes that his own chances are gone.
> Besides, I've already stabbed everyone except you and
> France. I'd have probably stabbed France if he wasn't
> so far away. It was your turn. Heh.
:-) I don't mind. Go ahead gimme more :-)
Seriously, I like your idea of FIR. I'd tune it a bit. Let's not make
Italy a minor power, ok? I am sure I don't have to explain to you why I
want this :-) I'd explain to you your choises:
If you atack me:
What I am going to do when I see you grabbing my centers is
to keep moving east. I give France a golden opportunity to take the
advantage of it if he wants. I am going see who blinks first. You with
your desire to have FIR with minor Italy or is it me, I want to be sure
that I am not going to be eliminated.
Co-operate with me:
We take Austria out and you take Germany out with France. Still you lose
the battle in North. Your chance was to build there but you aren't able to
do it anymore.
Raine
From - Fri Jan 11 18:34:37 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> He's complaining that I'm giving you a solo by attacking
> Italy. I think he's right that I'm increasing the chances
> of it.
Could be, but hopefully you're increasing your own chances as well. :-)
> Turkey looks ripe.
Definitely. I was thinking that if Raine expects Arm-Ank and does Bla-Ank to bounce,
Sev-Bla and a supported attack on Smy would be quite fruitful.
> We should decide a split of the German centers really.
> Scandanavia for me, Munich and Hol for you
Sounds good, but I think it's better to devise the best possible attack then juggle
centers if things look inequitable than to fix the fate of the centers before we know
how we're going to get there. I assume that Germany will remove Boh, which would
leave Scandinavia solid but the Fatherland vulnerable, so we'll probably want to
focus on Kie and Mun first. If we try Hol S Bur-Ruh, Ber S Hol-Kie, at least one
of those moves will succeed. We might as well also do Nwg S Nth (I'd rather not
risk Nth), Nth S StP-Nwy, Pru-Sil. What do you think?
I told Raine I will move Spa-MAO, MAO-Eng. I'm debating whether I should actually
do so or just go for Tun. I'd like to take Tun, but if you believe that you will
have success against Italy in the east then it might not be urgent for me to immediately
hit him in the west. What do you think my priorities should be? The best move against
G is probably B A Par, Par-Bur, MAO-Eng, then I can do Eng S Nth to free Nwg for other
duties in the Fall. Or if you think Raine is our major hurdle I can go for Tun.
Italy has more centers right now, but Steve is the better player, and my first
inclination is to string Raine along a little more rather than risk letting Germany
off the hook. What are your feelings on this?
Rod
From - Fri Jan 11 18:34:38 2002
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
Austria told me he plans to retain his fleet (I suppose that means he'll disband Bud),
so that might make things more difficult for you in Turkey. One possibility is to put
units in Bla/Con/Aeg, giving you leverage on Ank and Smy. Or you could forsake
Turkey and concentrate on leveraging armies against the Austrian heartland, which
would be difficult but potentially more lucrative.
FYI, Adam and I are discussing continued cooperation against Germany. It might be best
for me to work with him this year to neutralize Germany, then focus on pushing north
against Russia the following year. What are your feelings on this?
Rod
From - Fri Jan 11 18:34:39 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> When I moved to Arm I did so taking a risk, if I was unable to
> build in Sev than it would have been a mistake. I am able,
> and willing to make Sev my build and a fleet there makes
> more sense than an army.
Yes, it was a risk. But I think it may turn out to be a quite profitable
risk. Hopefully you will be able to get some Italian centers. If France
gets too strong in the North you may have trouble holding him back.
> I'll do what I can with F sev and A Arm to help you out
> against Italy, and take your centers only when it's
> either that or lose some to Italy.
Great! When the time comes, I can probably make sure that you, rather
than Italy, gets Rumania. That will probably be the first one to go.
I think your fleet in Sevastopol will unnerve Italy. It is essential to
him that you do not enter the Black Sea, so this will severely limit the
movements his fleet can make.
Austria
From - Fri Jan 11 18:34:41 2002
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hello, are you there? Are you still playing? I haven't heard anything
from you in a while. Your're not just going to roll over and die, are you?
I need your help to get Italy to back off me and go after France. I'm
trying to work a deal where Italy goes after France with your help, and I
attack Russia.
The danger is, that if Italy keeps attacking me, he will ahve to pull
most of his forces east (he has most of them already), which will leave
himself open to France. France is close to a victory position, because
Russia will not be strong enough to hold France back in Germany without
my help, I think. France only needs to get Tunis...
Austria
From - Fri Jan 11 22:08:28 2002
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1908B Sat Jan 12 2002 13:56:06 +1300
Adjustment orders for Winter of 1908. (gutsy.033)
Austria: Removes the army in Budapest.
Germany: Removes the army in Bohemia.
Italy: Builds an army in Naples.
France: Builds an army in Paris.
Russia: Builds a fleet in Sevastopol.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Movement for Spring of 1909.
The deadline for orders will be Tue Jan 15 2002 20:00:00 +1300.
