Fall 1905
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From - Sat Nov 03 13:59:35 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Okay, let's pretend for a second that a collapsing Russia is not such a bad
> thing for me. What would that look like? If you did get a build this year,
> would you be willing to build F Trieste? And, how would France respond?
No, F Tri would not be helpful. Italy is still powerful in the East. I
would need to attack Italy covertly. As I said, I can't attack Italy
unless you attack France, because France has too many units and would
take all of the Italian centers.
If you attack France, you will want Italy's help, anyway. And you
wouldn't want me to attack Italy right away. This would lead to France's
getting a number of Italian centers, and it would put and end really
quickly to your attack.
Austria
From - Sat Nov 03 13:59:36 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi, I've just entered the order Ion S Tun-Tys. If you would rather I
support Tys, or Tun, let me know. I really think France will go for Tys,
though.
Austria
From - Sat Nov 03 20:56:20 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
Please withdraw from Nth this season.
Adam seems to be in a tough spot, but I think he'll be OK with your
help. However, if things don't work out, I'm open to other
"possibilities" for the end game. What's your gut feeling as to how the
game will end?
Rod
From - Mon Nov 05 18:20:36 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany and France in 'gutsy':
Sorry I've been quiet all weekend, busy until Sunday
then just too worn out to turn the computer on.
> If we assume that Keith will not order Ukr-War, then War-Mos covers Mos.
> Sev S Gal-Rum protects Sev unless Ukr S Rum-Sev, in which case Adam gets
> Rum unless Ser-Rum, in which case Sil S Boh-Gal allows Gal to retreat
> into Bud or Vie unless Vie-Bud, Tyr-Vie, in which case Mun-Tyr succeeds -
> unless Ven-Tyr, in which case Mar-Pie succeeds!
>
> Woo-hoo! It's the grand Master Plan!
Wow, lots of unless'es there and even the first conditional
(!Ukr - War) isn't a sure thing. Still, it's likely and the
plan looks more or less worthy to me. Keith is unsure
whether he's in a better or worse situation now than he
was last year, and I agreed with his uncertainty. We
should be able to make progress against him eventually,
it's not good for Austria to have his units spread out
like this, he needs to be curled into a hedgehog like
ball.
War - Mos
Gal - Rum
Sev S Gal - Rum
Ank H (retreat to Bla)
StP - Nwy
Adam.............
From - Mon Nov 05 18:20:33 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
I'd prefer to keep Ank. I doubt you'll let me, but
you should realize by now that the days when Keith
can keep you propped up are numbered and I'm as
happy with a French solo as I am with being eliminated.
You know you'll get no more SC's from Russia after
Ank anyway, the same isn't true if you take Austrian
centers instead.
I don't expect you to listen or make the sensible choice,
but I thought I'd say it anyway.
Adam...............
From - Mon Nov 05 18:20:38 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I knew that Italy was going to take Ankara no matter what you did this
> turn, and I felt that you had a pretty good chance of getting Rum, which
> is why I asked you to move Ank-Bla-Rum.
I guess given your cooperation you did know, I'd figured he'd
need Aeg in Ion though and that you wouldn't want to spread
your forced so thinly. Oh well, I can always take Rum next
year I guess.
> I hope you don't feel like I was making bad suggestions for you. That's
> not what I'm trying to do. Instead, I'm trying to make the best of a bad
> situation. I can't always give you full information, but I wish you
> would trust me.
I don't think there's much track-record to go on which would
lend much trust to your suggestions. I don't really see how
full information last phase could have hurt you either,
at least no more than the moves I sent in anyway.
Adam..........
From - Mon Nov 05 18:20:44 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Apologies for the silence. I wasn't able to connect the net at weekend.
> Hi, I've just entered the order Ion S Tun-Tys. If you would rather I
> support Tys, or Tun, let me know. I really think France will go for Tys,
> though.
Let's keep it that way. I will inform you if I want you to change it.
I assume you are online just before the deadline, could you confirm this?
BTW, have you played with Rod before? I ask it because you are quite sure
that Rod will go after Tys rather than Tunis. It is a guessing game if we
don't know Rod. Well, it is guessing anyway.
Do you want me to support Tyr hold? I might think of it... France can get
to Pie if he wants to.
Has France or Germany offered AFG to you?
At the moment I am inclined to attack Ankara from Con. I would like to
move Aeg-Con, too. This is what you suggested. I think if you want to stab
me you certainly have your moment but I hope you won't. You'd have two
desperate souls (me and Adam) making suicidal attacks against you. Adam
has already stated to me that his goal is to ensure French solo. I am
amazed, yes I am. I think it is too early for that kind of talks.
Greece and Bulgaria remains unoccupied, right?
BTW, Steve asked me where I would like him to retreat to. Too bad I wasn't
able to connect the net at weekend. I had no chance to reply to him before
the retreat.
Raine
From - Mon Nov 05 18:20:46 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Let's keep it that way. I will inform you if I want you to change it.
> I assume you are online just before the deadline, could you confirm this?
> BTW, have you played with Rod before? I ask it because you are quite sure
> that Rod will go after Tys rather than Tunis. It is a guessing game if we
> don't know Rod. Well, it is guessing anyway.
I am not sure if I have played with him or not. I just think he will go
for Tys because if he goes for Tunis, then he knows he will be stopped
there. His only hope of getting anything else from you depends on his
getting Tys. In any case, if you guess wrong this turn, then France
can't advance any further. If you guess right, you save Tun *and* France
can't get any further.
> Do you want me to support Tyr hold? I might think of it... France can get
> to Pie if he wants to.
No, I don't think you need to support me. I think I'll be okay. I would
try to bounce Tus and Pie.
> Has France or Germany offered AFG to you?
I have not heard from France. Germany mentioned AFG, but at the same
time, he is attackng me, so I don't put much stock in that.
> At the moment I am inclined to attack Ankara from Con. I would like to
> move Aeg-Con, too. This is what you suggested. I think if you want to stab
> me you certainly have your moment but I hope you won't. You'd have two
> desperate souls (me and Adam) making suicidal attacks against you. Adam
> has already stated to me that his goal is to ensure French solo. I am
> amazed, yes I am. I think it is too early for that kind of talks.
I don't think that will happen. Germany will turn on France when the
time is right.
> Greece and Bulgaria remains unoccupied, right?
Yes, please.
> BTW, Steve asked me where I would like him to retreat to. Too bad I wasn't
> able to connect the net at weekend. I had no chance to reply to him before
> the retreat.
I think he had made up his mind, anyway.
Austria
From - Mon Nov 05 18:20:47 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Thanks for your note. I don't really want to attack you. The more I do,
the more likely it is that Germany will take Warsaw and Moscow. If I had
it my way we would work together against Germany.
It doesn't look like this will happen any time soon, but if Germany
attacks you, then you can count on my support in getting your home
centers back.
Austria
From - Mon Nov 05 18:20:49 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
Too bad I couldn't connect the net at weekend. We have talked so little
:-( I don't blame you. I have been busy too.
You talked of your next SC. Norway, Vienna and French center were the
possibilities. I assume it is Norway. There is no need for you to leave it
to Russia.
I wonder why you did retreat to Boh? You are simply ignoring AGI
triple? Could you explain me why you are not willing to go for it?
Steve, I enjoy your mails (like I enjoyed Eric's) but why is it so that
the people I like to talk with are making moves that are not helping me
to ally with them? I have no answer for that. I am not flattering you. I
am a stupid foreigner, remember? :-) I cannot flatter anyone in english
that would sound redicilous, I guess.
Anyway, I am waiting for Keith's stab to happen at any moment. When that
time comes I will bleed for your help. You are not helping my fears by
thinking of attack against Keith. That makes me sad. I told you that I'll
defend against Rod no matter what happens. I tried to encourage you to
attack him. But no. I hope you'll attack him finally.
Yes, and if you have time I'd love to receive answers to my unanswered
questions :-)
Raine
From - Mon Nov 05 18:20:51 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Good to hear from you.
> I am not sure if I have played with him or not. I just think he will go
> for Tys because if he goes for Tunis, then he knows he will be stopped
> there. His only hope of getting anything else from you depends on his
> getting Tys. In any case, if you guess wrong this turn, then France
> can't advance any further. If you guess right, you save Tun *and* France
> can't get any further.
If this was a no-press game and I was playing France I would go after Tys.
Rod is a good player so I am not surprised of something else. I'll take
your support.
> I have not heard from France. Germany mentioned AFG, but at the same
> time, he is attackng me, so I don't put much stock in that.
France has not talked to me for a long time :-( I guess he is happy to
current situation.
> I don't think that will happen. Germany will turn on France when the
> time is right.
Germany says tha he wants Russia to be strong. Russia talks that FGR is
his only hope if it fails he will try to give France a solo. Hmmm.
> > Greece and Bulgaria remains unoccupied, right?
>
> Yes, please.
OK. I'll go after Ankara.
> I think he had made up his mind, anyway.
I cannot see a reason for him to neglect AGI. Well, FGR is not good for
him, unless he sees a chance for solo there. AFG is what I am afraid of
but still AGI is better in my eyes for Germany than AFG. I feel like
novice :-)
I see the irony in the last couple of moves and the current situation: I
have one more center than you have and I feel like I have been your puppet
:-) I have moved the way you have wanted me to. No I don't comlain AI has
worked very well and I hope we can continue that way. I am honest and I
can reveal that I am afraid of your stab. There is nothing I can do with
it, if I start to make defensive moves I am dead meat for sure. I hope you
see the benefits of our alliance.
I need to go now. I am most likely able to connect net just before
deadline. If you have something important to say just give me a note, I'll
read it before deadline. In case you are online just before deadline we
might have a chance to exchange thoughts.
To summarize:
Ion S Tun-Tys
Tun-Tys
Gre and Bul are left empty (no moves there)
Raine
From - Mon Nov 05 18:20:52 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
I forgot to tell you that I am NOT going to move to Trieste. I don't know
if you even thought about it but I want to let you to know that I won't
move there.
You might feel that I am funny but sometimes when I have reached the
certain 'paranoia level' I feel more comfortable when I receive notes like
this.
Raine who is maybe a little too tired at the moment :-)
From - Mon Nov 05 18:20:54 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I forgot to tell you that I am NOT going to move to Trieste. I don't know
> if you even thought about it but I want to let you to know that I won't
> move there.
I am not worried about that. You could stab me for Gre and Tri this
turn, but that wouldn't be enough to repel France because I could
interfere with my fleet in Ion.
Likewise, I am bound to help you, because if I don't, you could easily
crush me. We each could cause the downfall of the other, but any gains
would be very temporary.
We must hang together or we will surely hang separately.
Austria
From - Mon Nov 05 18:20:58 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
Keith,
> Do you think he is counting your centers for a victory?
Maybe, though he would need at least one Iberian center, and I doubt he'd get that far.
> You seem to be quite vulnerable to a stab from Germany now,
> with all your forces tied up against Italy.
Yeah, I know. I have to carefully balance the risks.
> That said, I don't particularly want to see you move anything against
> Germany. I'm in a quite vulnerable position myself, and I would be
> afraid that Italy would take advantage of me.
If I find success against Italy then you won't have to worry about that vulnerability
anymore. If you were able to hasten the process somehow, we would then be in good
shape to cooperate against Germany. F/A is an excellent end-game pairing, as long as
we can focus on a common enemy.
Rod
From - Mon Nov 05 18:20:59 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia and
Germany in 'gutsy':
Adam,
> Wow, lots of unless'es there and even the first conditional
> (!Ukr - War) isn't a sure thing.
Yeah, I know. Regardless, it's a guessing game right now, so we might as well just
pick something and go for it.
Steve, will we have the privilege of hearing from you before the deadline? ;-)
Rod
From - Mon Nov 05 18:21:00 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> If I find success against Italy then you won't have to worry about that vulnerability
anymore. If you were able to hasten the process somehow, we would then be in good shape
to cooperate against Germany. F/A is an excellent end-game pairing, as long as
> we can focus on a common enemy.
I am under too much pressure right now from Germany and Russia to be able
to "hasten" your progress against Italy.
It seems like it would be in your best interests to try to influence
Germany and/or Russia to leave me alone, don't you think?
Austria
From - Mon Nov 05 18:21:01 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> I am under too much pressure right now from Germany and Russia to be able
> to "hasten" your progress against Italy.
You have at least one unit that has no use against GR. And you could hasten my
progress simply by not helping Italy. If you move Ion-Adr instead of supporting
Raine then I will advance, and you can use the fleet to cover your butt in Tri.
> It seems like it would be in your best interests to try to influence
> Germany and/or Russia to leave me alone, don't you think?
Sure, but how would I do that? I don't think it's in my best interests to attack
Germany right now, and I don't get the impression that GR would be willing to fight
each other rather than you at the moment. OTOH, I don't think GR will last forever.
I believe that Steve is interested in making sure that neither you nor Russia becomes
dominant, so if he's siding with Russia right now it's probably because he thinks
you have the upper hand. Perhaps if you let R make some momentary progress (without
hurting yourself too much), Steve will decide that he'd better focus on keeping Russia
in check. I think that would improve both your position and mine. It would be risky,
but I don't think the balance of the game will change much until something significant
happens. Are you willing to shake things up a little?
Rod
From - Mon Nov 05 18:21:03 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> You have at least one unit that has no use against GR. And you could
> hasten my progress simply by not helping Italy. If you move Ion-Adr
> instead of supporting Raine then I will advance, and you can use the fleet
> to cover your butt in Tri.
I don't want you to get all the Italian centers, and I will need Italy's
help against Russia unless I get lucky.
> > It seems like it would be in your best interests to try to influence
> > Germany and/or Russia to leave me alone, don't you think?
> Sure, but how would I do that?
Use your diplomatic skills.
> I don't think it's in my best interests to attack Germany right now, and I
> don't get the impression that GR would be willing to fight each other
> rather than you at the moment. OTOH, I don't think GR will last forever.
> I believe that Steve is interested in making sure that neither you nor
> Russia becomes dominant, so if he's siding with Russia right now it's
> probably because he thinks you have the upper hand. Perhaps if you let R
> make some momentary progress (without hurting yourself too much), Steve
> will decide that he'd better focus on keeping Russia in check. I think
> that would improve both your position and mine. It would be risky, but I
> don't think the balance of the game will change much until something
> significant happens. Are you willing to shake things up a little?
Are you worried that Germany will attack you rather than attacking
Russia? Or do you think that, in aiding Russia against me, the rest of
his units will remain idle?
Or, are you merely want me to be able to help against Italy?
Right now the situation between Italy and I is tense. We are entangled,
but we can't attack each other, because a war between us would cause us
both to collapse, because we have pressure from all sides. Now, if
pressure is relieved from one of those sides, something could happen.
Austria
From - Mon Nov 05 18:21:09 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> I don't want you to get all the Italian centers
I don't need *all* of his centers - you can have the eastern ones. ;-)
> > Sure, but how would I do that?
>
> Use your diplomatic skills.
Of course! Why didn't I think of that? :-) So all I need is a convincing
explanation for why they would benefit more from attacking each other than from
attacking you or me.
> Or, are you merely want me to be able to help against Italy?
Sure, that would be nice. :-) I would also like for someone in the east to be
strong enough to tackle Germany. I'd be happy for that to be either you or Russia
or the two of you together - though I'd prefer a solution that also yields assistance
against Italy.
> Now, if pressure is relieved from one of those sides, something could happen.
I would recommend peace between A/R, but I suspect that Adam has lost his trust
in you.
Rod
From - Mon Nov 05 18:21:10 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> I would recommend peace between A/R, but I suspect that Adam has lost his trust
> in you.
I have been trying to negotiate with Russia for some time. Perhaps it
would help if you sang my praises.
Austria
From - Mon Nov 05 18:21:18 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> I have been trying to negotiate with Russia for some time. Perhaps it
> would help if you sang my praises.
My impression is that he has been willing to work with you, but he feels that
you've been disingenuous in past negotiations (e.g., he supported you against
Italy, but you attacked him instead). I think he won't be open to hearing your
praises until you make some moves that favor him. Maybe you should suggest
something like War-Mos, Sev-Mos, Ukr-Gal, Gal-Rum, Rum-Bud - and follow through.
(Or maybe Rum-Bul, then you offer Bul S Rum-Bla-Con.) That would make A/R less
threatening to each other and allow you to focus on G while he tackles Italy in the south.
Rod
From - Mon Nov 05 18:21:19 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> My impression is that he has been willing to work with you, but he feels
> that you've been disingenuous in past negotiations (e.g., he supported you
> against Italy, but you attacked him instead).
He ordered that support not because he thought I would accept it, but
because that unit had nothing else to do.
> I think he won't be open to hearing your praises until you make some
> moves that favor him.
Okay, this is a chicken and egg problem. I know you have a great deal of
influence over Russia.
Austria
From - Mon Nov 05 18:21:22 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France and Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi,
> Steve, will we have the privilege of hearing from you before the deadline?
LOL. The privilege is always all mine; sorry about being so distracted. :)
Neither Raine nor Keith are exceptionally pleased with me right now, but I
don't think that matters too much. I gather that you two have been
discussing tactics while I've been absent; any good ideas?
My first inclination is to attack Tyrolia with support from Bohemia, but I'm
just as willing to cut support in Vienna or engage in a supported attack on
Vienna. Silesia could support Gal to hold, but I suspect that Adam wants
Galicia to be in motion.
So...I'm working on three possibilities:
1) If you want to support me into Vienna, I'll order:
boh - vie
sil - boh
mun - tyr
2) If you want me to support you into Vienna, I'll order:
boh s gal - vie
sil - boh
mun s sil - boh
3) If you just want me to mess with Keith and leave you alone, I'll order:
boh - tyr
mun s boh - tyr
sil - boh
Let me know. I'll be here for a bit and back online after dinner (in a
couple of hours).
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Mon Nov 05 18:21:23 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I understand you want me to leave the North Sea and I'm quite willing to,
but my concern is that I need to keep two units against Norway in case Adam
collapses too quickly.
Would you be okay with nth - ska or nth - nwg? If I do that, I'd like to
have Bel hold for a bit. Is that okay too?
I'm also considering attacking Norway this turn because I don't think Adam
will last too much longer, but I *definitely* want to hear your thoughts
before I do so. Write if you can.
- Steve
From - Mon Nov 05 18:21:24 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I haven't heard anything from Keith so I have no way of knowing what he will
do. Right now, I'd trust Rod with whatever he is suggesting or whatever he
has said about the diplomatic situation; he seems to know what's going on
better than I do.
I'm here to support you against Keith until I get a foothold in Austria and
Rod gets a foothold against Raine. If you can succeed against Keith or
Raine for that matter, I'm all the happier because I can either claim Norway
as payment or we can use your northern fleet against Rod sometime in the
future.
Sorry about being so busy. Write if you can.
- Steve
From - Mon Nov 05 18:21:25 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> my concern is that I need to keep two units against Norway in case Adam
> collapses too quickly.
You do need to maintain control, but I'm not sure it's necessary to be able to
dislodge Nwy on a moment's notice.
> Would you be okay with nth - ska or nth - nwg?
Yes. I'd prefer Ska, but I could live with Nwg if there's a good reason why
that's better.
> If I do that, I'd like to have Bel hold for a bit. Is that okay too?
How would you feel about bouncing in Pic? (I assume that you do NOT want to
bounce this season - I'm talking about next year.)
> I'm also considering attacking Norway this turn because I don't think Adam
> will last too much longer
Well, if you take Nwy then I'd agree that Adam won't last much longer. OTOH,
if you support him to Nwy then he has a chance. Which scenario do you prefer?
I guess it all depends on Keith - is he going to be a problem if you let him off
the hook, or will he help us out?
Rod
From - Mon Nov 05 18:21:27 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany
and Russia in 'gutsy':
Steve,
> I gather that you two have been
> discussing tactics while I've been absent; any good ideas?
Only what you've already seen in FGR press:
"If we assume that Keith will not order Ukr-War, then War-Mos covers Mos.
Sev S Gal-Rum protects Sev unless Ukr S Rum-Sev, in which case Adam gets
Rum unless Ser-Rum, in which case Sil S Boh-Gal allows Gal to retreat
into Bud or Vie unless Vie-Bud, Tyr-Vie, in which case Mun-Tyr succeeds -
unless Ven-Tyr, in which case Mar-Pie succeeds!"
> My first inclination is to attack Tyrolia with support from Bohemia, but I'm
> just as willing to cut support in Vienna or engage in a supported attack on
> Vienna. Silesia could support Gal to hold, but I suspect that Adam wants
> Galicia to be in motion.
I believe that Adam has already ordered Gal-Rum, but if you and he confirm some
other plan, that's fine with me.
> If you want to support me into Vienna, I'll order:
My gut feeling is that support from Gal would be cut, but you never know.
> If you want me to support you into Vienna, I'll order:
> boh s gal - vie
> sil - boh
> mun s sil - boh
Mun S Boh, Sil-Gal is better. This has the advantage that Keith might not be
expecting close GR cooperation, but y'all would have to arrange it before the deadline.
> If you just want me to mess with Keith and leave you alone, I'll order:
> boh - tyr
> mun s boh - tyr
> sil - boh
Those are good moves. Another option is a supported attack on Gal to stand-off
an Austrian attack (or let Adam retreat into an open SC, which would be sweet if
it works but seems like a long shot). If you expect Boh-Tyr to succeed then that
gives you a better position, but if it will fail then hitting Gal may be more
useful. What do you think?
Rod
From - Mon Nov 05 21:21:42 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France and Germany in 'gutsy':
> "If we assume that Keith will not order Ukr-War, then War-Mos covers Mos.
> Sev S Gal-Rum protects Sev unless Ukr S Rum-Sev, in which case Adam gets
> Rum unless Ser-Rum, in which case Sil S Boh-Gal allows Gal to retreat
> into Bud or Vie unless Vie-Bud, Tyr-Vie, in which case Mun-Tyr succeeds -
> unless Ven-Tyr, in which case Mar-Pie succeeds!"
That was the last plan I heard about.
> > My first inclination is to attack Tyrolia with support from Bohemia, but I'm
> > just as willing to cut support in Vienna or engage in a supported attack on
> > Vienna. Silesia could support Gal to hold, but I suspect that Adam wants
> > Galicia to be in motion.
>
> I believe that Adam has already ordered Gal-Rum, but if
> you and he confirm some other plan, that's fine with me.
I have no information or even much intuition to go on but
I think Keith holds Gal as the most important province for
him. It wouldn't surprise me to see him attack it enough
to make me retreat it. I think the plan to move it to
Rum sounded fine, but if you want something else then
get your ideas in quickly before I go to bed fairly
shortly.
> My gut feeling is that support from Gal would be cut, but you never know.
Very unlikely Gal will get to support anything if you ask me.
> Mun S Boh, Sil-Gal is better. This has the advantage
> that Keith might not be expecting close GR cooperation,
> but y'all would have to arrange it before the deadline.
I think Kieth probably is expecting German/Russian cooperation.
Both he and Raine have barely talked at all. This may be
because I told them there wasn't much point until they
wanted to stop lying to me.
> Those are good moves. Another option is a supported attack
> on Gal to stand-off an Austrian attack (or let Adam retreat
> into an open SC, which would be sweet if it works but seems
> like a long shot). If you expect Boh-Tyr to succeed then
> that gives you a better position, but if it will fail then
> hitting Gal may be more useful. What do you think?
There's a good chance Tyr will be defended from Ven even,
AI have been very close. If it's not then I'm sure Vie
will support it. I guess I could order Gal - Vie to cut
that support, but it's not guarenteed even then. Attacking
Rum still looks like the best bet to me, though not a
great one even then :(
Adam..........
From - Mon Nov 05 21:21:44 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia and
Germany in 'gutsy':
> I think Keith holds Gal as the most important province for
> him. It wouldn't surprise me to see him attack it enough
> to make me retreat it.
> There's a good chance Tyr will be defended....
Perhaps then something like Sil S Boh-Gal, Mun-Tyr is our best bet. It would be
"safer" to do Mun S Boh, Boh S Sil-Gal, but that's unlikely to accomplish anything.
Potentially leaving Boh open might be awkward, but if Keith does move there, it's an
awkward position for him as well - he could very well end up with something else open.
> Attacking Rum still looks like the best bet to me....
I agree.
Rod
From - Mon Nov 05 21:21:46 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France and Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi,
> Perhaps then something like Sil S Boh-Gal, Mun-Tyr is our best bet.
I'm willing to do that. For that move to fail (i.e. a Bohemian dislodge),
AI would have to have both Ven and Tyr in motion (with support from Vienna).
As long as Adam is willing to accept a possible German retreat into Galicia
(*very* unlikely), I'm all for it. If I do end up in Galicia, Adam, you can
be sure that I would concentrate on Vienna next year and not Warsaw.
I'm submitting those orders now; if you're still away and have reservations,
let me know. I'm ordering:
mun - tyr
boh - gal
sil s boh - gal
Good luck with Rum, Mos, and Sev. I'll support StP into Norway to offset
one of your losses.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Mon Nov 05 21:21:49 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France and Russia in 'gutsy':
Line 12: I meant:
"...if you're still awake..."
not
"...if you're still away..."
Bad fingers. Bad!
- Steve
From - Mon Nov 05 21:21:53 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I understand you not wanting a German fleet in the Norwegian Sea. If I were
you, I wouldn't either. And, the only advantage I really get out of it is
one square closer to St Pete which I really shouldn't need if I'm diploming
right. Right?
I'll order:
bel h
nth - ska
den h
swe s stp - nwy
Regarding a Picardy bounce next year, I'm all for it. I think you and I are
getting comfortable with these defensive bounces; a lot of players would not
like them at this point in the game. Thanks.
Also:
> I guess it all depends on Keith - is he going to be a problem if
> you let him off the hook, or will he help us out?
Keith is very skeptical of the prospect of an AFG. He thinks FG would just
be using him to wipe out I or R. He's probably right, but that belief just
cuts him out of the potential gains. If all goes well, my next center will
be Vienna; not real soon, but it should come in time.
All set for this turn, write if you'd like. As soon as I finish this part
of my work project, I'll engage in dip a bit more. Thanks for picking up
the slack.
- Steve
From - Tue Nov 06 05:21:04 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> And, the only advantage I really get out of it is
> one square closer to St Pete which I really shouldn't need if I'm diploming
> right.
When the time comes for you to take StP, I doubt you'll need much of a
northern navy to do it - forces in Nwy and Lvn or Mos should do the
trick just fine. ;-)
> I'll order:
>
> bel h
> nth - ska
> den h
> swe s stp - nwy
Thanks! I'll do Par H, Mar-Pie, MAO-Wes.
> Regarding a Picardy bounce next year, I'm all for it.
OK. Let's confirm it in the Spring.
> Keith is very skeptical of the prospect of an AFG. He thinks FG would just
> be using him to wipe out I or R. He's probably right, but that belief just
> cuts him out of the potential gains.
I have never understood people who are reticent to get builds for fear
of being attacked. It's a self-defeating attitude.
Rod
From - Tue Nov 06 05:21:15 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Can you tell me if people are sending notes to you? France for example has
forgot my existence :-(
> We must hang together or we will surely hang separately.
I am not sure if I can follow this. I mean native english speaker might
found something out of this. My interpretation: 'hang together' is to work
together and (this I am not sure of) 'hang separately' is like hanging in
wild west after a bank robbery i.e. hanging with a rope. If I am nowhere
near with my interpretation at least you got a good laugh :-)
Raine
From - Tue Nov 06 05:21:29 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Can you tell me if people are sending notes to you? France for example has
> forgot my existence :-(
I have gotten several messages from France, but that is about it. He
wants me to attack you, of course.
> > We must hang together or we will surely hang separately.
>
> I am not sure if I can follow this. I mean native english speaker might
> found something out of this. My interpretation: 'hang together' is to work
> together and (this I am not sure of) 'hang separately' is like hanging in
> wild west after a bank robbery i.e. hanging with a rope. If I am nowhere
> near with my interpretation at least you got a good laugh :-)
Exactly correct.
Austria
From - Tue Nov 06 05:21:36 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to England, Italy, Russia,
France and Germany in 'gutsy':
I will be away from e-mail from Nov. 7 through Nov. 15.
keith
From - Tue Nov 06 05:21:38 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1905M Tue Nov 06 2001 20:00:00 +1300
Movement results for Fall of 1905. (gutsy.019)
Austria: Army Serbia -> Rumania. (*bounce*)
Austria: Army Rumania -> Sevastopol.
Austria: Fleet Ionian Sea SUPPORT Italian Fleet Tunis -> Tyrrhenian Sea.
Austria: Army Tyrolia -> Bohemia. (*bounce*)
Austria: Army Ukraine SUPPORT Army Rumania -> Sevastopol.
Austria: Army Vienna -> Bohemia. (*bounce*)
England: Fleet Norway HOLD. (*dislodged*)
France: Army Marseilles -> Piedmont. (*bounce*)
France: Army Edinburgh HOLD.
France: Fleet North Africa -> Tunis. (*bounce*)
France: Army London HOLD.
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean -> Western Mediterranean. (*bounce*)
France: Fleet Western Mediterranean -> Tyrrhenian Sea. (*bounce*)
France: Army Paris HOLD.
France: Fleet Gulf of Lyon SUPPORT Fleet Western Mediterranean -> Tyrrhenian Sea.
Germany: Army Belgium HOLD.
Germany: Army Munich -> Tyrolia. (*bounce*)
Germany: Fleet Sweden SUPPORT Russian Fleet St Petersburg -> Norway.
Germany: Army Bohemia -> Galicia.
Germany: Fleet North Sea -> Skagerrak.
Germany: Fleet Denmark HOLD.
Germany: Army Silesia SUPPORT Army Bohemia -> Galicia.
Italy: Army Smyrna SUPPORT Fleet Constantinople -> Ankara.
Italy: Army Venice -> Piedmont. (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Constantinople -> Ankara.
Italy: Fleet Aegean Sea -> Constantinople.
Italy: Fleet Tunis -> Tyrrhenian Sea. (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Rome -> Tuscany.
Italy: Fleet Tyrrhenian Sea -> Western Mediterranean. (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Galicia -> Rumania. (*bounce, dislodged*)
Russia: Fleet Ankara HOLD. (*dislodged*)
Russia: Fleet St Petersburg (north coast) -> Norway.
Russia: Army Warsaw -> Moscow.
Russia: Army Sevastopol SUPPORT Army Galicia -> Rumania. (*dislodged*)
The following units were dislodged:
The English Fleet in Norway can retreat to North Sea or Norwegian Sea or
Barents Sea.
The Russian Army in Galicia can retreat to Warsaw or Budapest.
The Russian Fleet in Ankara can retreat to Black Sea or Armenia.
The Russian Army in Sevastopol can retreat to Armenia.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Retreats for Fall of 1905.
The deadline for orders will be Wed Nov 07 2001 19:02:56 +1300.
From - Tue Nov 06 05:21:39 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Thanks for your honesty. I was nervous before the moves. I got NO replies
to my mails from France or Germany and Russia is mad to me 'cause I don't
attack you. Too bad Russia can retreat to Bud. His units are once again
poorly positioned and we should have no problems in Black Sea area.
What is your opinion on Germany's behaviour?
Raine
endrpress
From - Tue Nov 06 05:21:42 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Thanks for your honesty. I was nervous before the moves. I got NO replies
> to my mails from France or Germany and Russia is mad to me 'cause I don't
> attack you. Too bad Russia can retreat to Bud. His units are once again
> poorly positioned and we should have no problems in Black Sea area.
>
> What is your opinion on Germany's behaviour?
I think Germany is very smart. He did the one move I did not
anticipate. He has also set himself up nicely to stab Russia when he
wants. He will let Russia wreck some havoc with me, and then he will
take all the Russian centers.
Good news against France. I am glad we guessed correctly. At least
Russia won't get any builds.
Austria
From - Tue Nov 06 05:21:41 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Argh! This is getting worse all the time. How about I take all your
home centers while you take all mine? You and Germany were very smart
this turn. You did the one thing I did not anticipate. I should have
moved Tyr-Vie and Vie-Bud. Oh well.
I don't suppose there is any chance that you will retreat Gal-War instead
of Gal-Bud, is there? I see what is going on. Germany is supporting you
while he encircles behind. He wants to make sure to get Warsaw and
Moscow. I would like to work together against him, but I suppose I don't
see that there is much chance of that.
What are your thoughts?
Austria
From - Tue Nov 06 05:21:44 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
I just looked at the board. If you ever listen to anything I say, listen
now. I know you don't trust me, but we need to work together.
Germany has helped you, but he has also set you up for a stab. See how
he is surrounding Norway and Warsaw. By pitting us against each other,
he is making it easy for himself to take all of your centers quickly. If
you agree with me, and if you are at all worried about Germany, then
here's what I think we should do.
You can disband A Sev and F Bla, and build armies in Stp and War. You
could also retreat Gal-War instead of Gal-Bud. This would be a signal to
me that you want to work together. If you retreat Gal-Bud, I will assume
that you do not want to work together.
You can see that my units are so spread out that I am no danger to you.
I attacked you because it was the only thing I thought I could do. I am
sure you felt the same way.
But now I am worried about Germany. I have been saying this for some
time, I know, but Germany is now poised to make a move, and he can tear
us both apart.
Your army in Bud would not destroy me, but it would cause a major
nuisance. If I have to deal with this, I won't be able to mobilize any
units against Germany for at least a year. By then it may be too late
for you.
Ask youself what you would do now if you were in Germany's shoes. Is
there some reason for him not to attack you? He is not poised to get any
French centers. He has already achieved his objective by getting us both
to fight each other.
If you retreat Gal-War, I will move Sev-Rum, and I will use my army in
Ukr to support Warsaw against Germany. I will also put pressure on
Munich and try to get Germany out of Galacia.
In the short run, if you retreat to Bud, you will still have the same
number of units in your home centers. You will just have one extra unit
in Bud that can be used to occupy most of my units that could be better
used against Germany. Note that the units around my home centers are not
any threat to you. They are only a threat to Germany. By retreating to
Bud you would only be aiding Germany.
What can Germany offer you? He can help you get Sev back. Then what? I
really do think that Germany is going to take Norway and Warsaw (or at
least try) in the Spring or Fall. Look at the map and tell me you don't
see the same thing.
Austria
From - Tue Nov 06 21:56:56 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Argh! This is getting worse all the time. How about I take all your
> home centers while you take all mine?
Well, you could stop taking mine and at least OFFER me something
other than standstill and stagnation. I'm expecting to be eliminated,
if not by Germany then by you or Raine. I'm hoping to increase
the chances of someone getting a solo until the point where
stopping that becomes more important than killing me. If I'm
to get a place in a draw I need a position strong enough to
guarentee that.
> You and Germany were very smart
> this turn. You did the one thing I did not anticipate. I should have
> moved Tyr-Vie and Vie-Bud. Oh well.
I didn't get a lot of chance to do much of the thinking to be
honest, just a few hours yesterday to basically accept Germany's
plan. I thought you'd probably cover Bud with Ser to be honest.
> I don't suppose there is any chance that you will retreat Gal-War instead
> of Gal-Bud, is there? I see what is going on. Germany is supporting you
> while he encircles behind. He wants to make sure to get Warsaw and
> Moscow. I would like to work together against him, but I suppose I don't
> see that there is much chance of that.
I've been asking if we can work together for some time, I've
had a pretty limited response from you to be honest. In fact,
mostly you've told me lies about what you plan to do in order
to get me to move in ways that allow you and Raine to take my
centers.
> Germany has helped you, but he has also set you up for a stab. See how
> he is surrounding Norway and Warsaw. By pitting us against each other,
> he is making it easy for himself to take all of your centers quickly. If
> you agree with me, and if you are at all worried about Germany, then
> here's what I think we should do.
I agree with you, but I'm not sure that you're yet sufficently
worried about a German or French solo that you're likely to actually
do anything about it. Each phase for some time now you tell
me that Germany is going to stab me and I say Yes, I Know,
let's DMZ Gal (latterly also give me my centers back) and let's
fight him. When you're ready to give me Rum back (And Sev of course
now) there starts to be things we can do together. Until then, I'm
as happy with a German solo as I am with a FGI or FGA draw.
> You can disband A Sev and F Bla, and build armies in Stp and War. You
> could also retreat Gal-War instead of Gal-Bud.
I couldn't retreat to War AND build in War.
> This would be a signal to
> me that you want to work together. If you retreat Gal-Bud, I will assume
> that you do not want to work together.
>
> You can see that my units are so spread out that I am no danger to you.
No danger to me? Ukr and Sev both yours, you've taken a
home center, a bankan canter and helped Italy into
a Turkish center - all of which were Russian a short
while ago when I was trying to agree peace with you.
All that time you have been saying precicely this,
that Germany is the real threat and we should fight
him. Not much seems to have changed yet.
> I attacked you because it was the only thing I thought I could
> do. I am sure you felt the same way.
It WAS the only thing I could do - the alternative was to
sit and be attacked by you and Italy some more. Like I said,
I have to wait until you're so scared of a German or French
solo that you'll leave me alone, even give me some centers
back. Until then, I'll help them get that solo all I can.
> But now I am worried about Germany. I have been saying this for some
> time, I know, but Germany is now poised to make a move, and he can tear
> us both apart.
He'll be expecting at least one center this year. If he can't
get it in Austria he'll take in in Norway. It looks like we
could get A Gal into Vie by the end of the year to me though.
Norway was only ever a loan until we could get Austrian centers.
> Your army in Bud would not destroy me, but it would cause a major
> nuisance. If I have to deal with this, I won't be able to mobilize any
> units against Germany for at least a year. By then it may be too late
> for you.
The army in Bud wouldn't destroy you immediately, of
course, but it would be enough of a nuisance that you'd
start to realize you're going to lose centers anyway, so
handing back the ones you took from me might be more
useful than letting me help Germany take your home SC's.
> Ask youself what you would do now if you were in Germany's shoes.
I'd support Russia against Austria for a while longer then
stab Russia - probably when my centers + Russian centers = 18.
> Is there some reason for him not to attack you?
There could be, if France realizes that him attacking me would
put him at eighteen then he might find he has to defend against
France instead. There's plenty of reasons for him not to attack
me until my centers would push him up to that magic number:
I'm likely to continue to help him get up to that point
if he doesn't. There's about as many reasons as there are for you
not to attack me in short. The point is more that until the solo
is really threatened, there's no real reason for anyone to keep me
in a draw either.
> He is not poised to get any French centers.
I doubt if he even wants any. He already has seven:
Ber, Den, Edi, Hol, Kie, Mun, Swe so he takes my help
into Vie, Tri, Nwy and Bud, maybe also Ser and Con
before stabbing me for StP, War, Mos Rum and Bul. 18.
No need to take French centers.
If I were him I'd probably stab Russia when I wanted Bud,
but I could be tempted to take Ser first, maybe also Con.
> He has already achieved his objective by getting us both
> to fight each other.
Well, we were doing that for quite a while without him. I
probably realized Raine wasn't going to join in and so tried
to back out just a little late, but it's been you attacking
me since then.
> If you retreat Gal-War, I will move Sev-Rum, and I will use my army in
> Ukr to support Warsaw against Germany. I will also put pressure on
> Munich and try to get Germany out of Galacia.
Or, I could wait until you're desperate enough to get your
armies out of Russia and out of Rumania. I have nothing to
lose basically, as you've pointed out, I'll be eliminated
anyway otherwise. I need guarentees that I can get enough
centers to be included in a draw, I don't have a stalemate
line position anymore.
> In the short run, if you retreat to Bud, you will still have the same
> number of units in your home centers. You will just have one extra unit
> in Bud that can be used to occupy most of my units that could be better
> used against Germany. Note that the units around my home centers are not
> any threat to you. They are only a threat to Germany. By retreating to
> Bud you would only be aiding Germany.
Yes. Well, I'm sure you'd have to disband some of those
units in my centers if Germany was sucessful which can only
help me too. I think you'd be more tempted to support me back
into Rum from Bud than from Mos too.
> What can Germany offer you? He can help you get Sev back. Then what?
If I were him, I'd let Russia have Sev and Bud and Rum before I
started to worry about actually making the stab. Even then I'd
be happy for Russia to worry about Turkey if Russia gave me Bud
in return for not stabbing. It's not like I'm in a position to
defend against the stab when it comes anyway.
> I really do think that Germany is going to take Norway and Warsaw (or at
> least try) in the Spring or Fall.
He says he'll take Norway this year unless he gets centers in
Austria, and he hasn't lied yet. It was just a loan, like
I said. Might as well leave War until the stab will make
a real difference.
> Look at the map and tell me you don't see the same thing.
Well, I'm not sending in the retreats yet because I think there
are things we could do together if you're ready to do them yet.
I'd need Sev and Rum back at least. I'd need you out of Russia
and a DMZ in Gal. At least an agreement to get these things
done as quickly as possible.
I suspect that F Bla will be the easiest unit we can agree to
put in Rumania, so it might not be the best unit to disband.
Also I suspect that A Bud will make the swap easier to enforce
and leave us with less need for mutual trust.
Hey, loss to a German solo, loss to a French solo, loss to
an FIG draw, it's all the same to me.
Adam.........
From - Tue Nov 06 21:57:00 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France and Russia in 'gutsy':
That worked out exceptionally well all things considered.
>From where I sit, it looks like Adam's best retreats are:
sev disband
ank - bla
gal - bud
Then in the winter, you can rebuild in Warsaw. Next year we can pressure
Vienna, Rumania, and/or Sev. Raines fleets are a concern, but the key to
getting to Raine is to hit Keith hard now that he is a bit fractured.
Any thoughts?
- Steve
From - Tue Nov 06 21:57:02 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
Steve moved to Ska because I asked him to withdraw from Nth. He responded that
he still wants to keep the fleet adjacent to Nwy, so I suppose Nwy is on his list
for long-term conquest. I don't think he'll stab you while Austria is a threat,
but he'll probably go for Nwy eventually. Fortunately, I think you're in good
position to get some builds off Austria and secure your position. Hopefully I
can also make some gains in the south (though it now looks like it may take a
while), then we can work together in the end game.
Rod
From - Tue Nov 06 21:57:03 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany
and Russia in 'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
> The Russian Army in Galicia can retreat to Warsaw or *Budapest*.
>:-}
> From where I sit, it looks like Adam's best retreats are:
>
> sev disband
> ank - bla
> gal - bud
>
> Then in the winter, you can rebuild in Warsaw.
I agree. A build in War is necessary, and the retreat to Bud is like a knife
through Keith's heart. The fleet in Bla might very well be dislodged, but that
just gives you the opportunity for another advantageous retreat. ;-)
> Raines fleets are a concern
Indeed. I made the wrong guess, and now a new Italian fleet will stalemate my navy.
> but the key to getting to Raine is to hit Keith hard now that he is a bit fractured.
I agree. A/I are functioning as a single entity, and hitting them hard in the east
will eventually yield dividends in the west. I'm willing to be patient and wait for
my share. There should be plenty of spoils to go around. :-)
Rod
From - Tue Nov 06 21:57:08 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France and Germany in 'gutsy':
Heh, nice, more confusion between me and Austria than before,
I like it. Keith wrote to me suggesting we just swap ALL our
home centers to make things simpler, then a bit later
worried that Germany was getting everything he wanted by
destroying Austria while setting me up for a stab.
Any advice on the retreats? From my count I still have five
units and five centers so if I disband units I get to
rebuild them. I think Ank - Bla; Gal - Bud and Sev Disband
looks like the best option at the moment.
Adam.........
From - Tue Nov 06 21:57:10 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
We haven't written just you and me for a bit so I thought I'd fire off a
quick letter. Overall, I'm fairly well pleased with the way FGR is
developing; Keith is in a heap of trouble and Raine (though in a good
position against Rod) has to fight a two-front war to get his next center.
I'm glad you were able to stay even this year; that keeps the three of us
well balanced. With the way the board lays right now, you, Rod, and I need
each other very much; that makes for a good partnership and that's just the
way I like it.
Maybe I'm re-hashing old stuff but that's one of the reasons Brent and I
never saw eye-to-eye. He thought alliances were based on promises and
long-letters instead of aligning your goals with those of the other players.
I'm still concerned about an eventual stab from Rod, but from the beginning
of the game my greatest fear was leaving Keith unchecked. Now, it looks
like we both are in a good position to snag a couple of Austrian centers. I
like the talks you, Rod, and I are having (Rod is a top-notch diplomat, and
tactically his suggestions have been dead on), but I'd also like to talk a
bit more with just "press to R" and "press to G". My fault for not writing
more the last couple of turns.
Regarding Norway, I would only take it without asking if something goes
terribly wrong in our partnership. Allowing you the extra center to fight
Keith is well worth it, plus if I do turn on Rod, we might need the extra
fleet in the north.
Other things you said:
> I think Ank - Bla; Gal - Bud and Sev Disband
> looks like the best option at the moment.
I agree; that's pretty much it. Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Tue Nov 06 21:57:14 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
> Steve, I enjoy your mails (like I enjoyed Eric's) but why is it
> so that the people I like to talk with are making moves that
> are not helping me to ally with them?
LOL. I enjoy your letters too; let's both try to write more. And, let's
try to make our moves help each other.
Since you get a build this year, have you considered making peace with Adam?
Your eastern centers are completely safe from both Keith and Adam plus your
build in Naples means you don't need Keith's Ionian fleet to help you
against Rod. I'm not saying you should attack Keith, but he would certainly
understand it if you covered Bulgaria and protected your centers, wouldn't
he?
I'm still open to an AGI or a GIR, but I have to make a decision in the next
year or so. Since Keith will be away for a week and FGR have been talking
frequently, I'm inclined to attack Austria, but I'd like to hear what you
think.
Obviously, I must also consider working with Rod for a while longer. He and
I have written a lot and talked through some tricky situations. But, again,
I'd like to hear what you think.
Write if you can. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Tue Nov 06 21:57:15 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
You keep mentioning that you can't trust me because I deceived you one
turn. This is not fair. By this reasoning, I cannot trust you either.
Just because Germany has not yer decieved you does not indicate that his
is more trustworthy, but merely that he is more devious, waiting for the
time to do the most damage when he attacks you. This is Diplomacy, and
everyone is deceptive. It may just be that Germany will be able to stick
the knife in much more deeply than you or I could.
I don't think your objective is really to give France or Germany a solo.
Why would you want to do this? Are you going to punish me for the rest
of the game because I deceived you one turn and took Rumania?
You are not dead yet, and if you want to have a continued presence in the
game and not just be Germany's puppet before he gets tired of you and
takes all of your centers, then we should work together. Together we can
defeat Germany.
Also, you may want to talk to France. As you can see, French progress
against Italy is stalled, and perhaps France would be willing to help out
against Germany.
Austria
From - Tue Nov 06 21:57:18 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Germany in 'gutsy':
this is a test
From - Wed Nov 07 20:37:14 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia and
Germany in 'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
I sent this earlier but did not receive a reply from the judge. If you
see this twice, that's why.
> Heh, nice, more confusion between me and Austria than before,
> I like it.
I believe that chaotic situations tend to favor the aggressor - which
is us. ;-)
> I think Ank - Bla; Gal - Bud and Sev Disband
> looks like the best option at the moment.
I agree.
Rod
From - Wed Nov 07 20:37:18 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1905R Wed Nov 07 2001 19:02:56 +1300
Retreat orders for Fall of 1905. (gutsy.020)
England: Fleet Norway -> North Sea.
Russia: Army Galicia -> Budapest.
Russia: Fleet Ankara -> Black Sea.
Russia: Army Sevastopol DISBAND.
Ownership of supply centers:
Austria: Greece, Rumania, Serbia, Sevastopol, Trieste, Vienna.
France: Brest, Edinburgh, Liverpool, London, Marseilles, Paris, Portugal,
Spain.
Germany: Belgium, Berlin, Denmark, Holland, Kiel, Munich, Sweden.
Italy: Ankara, Bulgaria, Constantinople, Naples, Rome, Smyrna, Tunis,
Venice.
Russia: Budapest, Moscow, Norway, St Petersburg, Warsaw.
Austria: 6 Supply centers, 6 Units: Builds 0 units.
England: 0 Supply centers, 1 Unit: Removes 1 unit.
France: 8 Supply centers, 8 Units: Builds 0 units.
Germany: 7 Supply centers, 7 Units: Builds 0 units.
Italy: 8 Supply centers, 7 Units: Builds 1 unit.
Russia: 5 Supply centers, 4 Units: Builds 1 unit.
Turkey: 0 Supply centers, 0 Units: Builds 0 units.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Adjustments for Winter of 1905.
Requested absence(s) activated.
The deadline for orders will be Thu Nov 15 2001 23:30:00 +1300.
From - Wed Nov 07 20:37:20 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
> LOL. I enjoy your letters too; let's both try to write more. And, let's
> try to make our moves help each other.
I did not want to be humorous :-) Why are you laughing out loud? My
purpose was to tell you that I like the style of your press not how it is
connected to your moves. I do not like the amount of our talks (this
depends on both of us) but I like the style of your press. We have the
problem with time zones but still we are able to discuss enough if we
really want to.
> Since you get a build this year, have you considered making peace with Adam?
Absolutely. Your moves indicate that you are making your way to get all
Adam's SC's when the time is right for you. Clever... 'cause Adam thinks
that Austria and Italy are the 'evil' and France and Germany are 'good'.
No wai,t Adam is from UK, there isn't this fight between good and evil
thing that is common in US politics (it sounds strange here in Europe).
> Your eastern centers are completely safe from both Keith and Adam plus your
> build in Naples means you don't need Keith's Ionian fleet to help you
> against Rod. I'm not saying you should attack Keith, but he would certainly
> understand it if you covered Bulgaria and protected your centers, wouldn't
> he?
Let's see.
> I'm still open to an AGI or a GIR, but I have to make a decision in the next
> year or so. Since Keith will be away for a week and FGR have been talking
> frequently, I'm inclined to attack Austria, but I'd like to hear what you
> think.
I have been moving like I would be in AGI for awhile. I am just waiting
for you to join it. I see that you are not in a hurry 'cause your best
shot was before the Bel/Edi change. You have so much to gain from Russia
that I am not sure if you are willing to move against France for awhile.
I don't believe in your attack against Austria untill I see it. You
certainly have better options. Maybe I have found the difference between
your experience and my inexperience...
> Obviously, I must also consider working with Rod for a while longer. He and
> I have written a lot and talked through some tricky situations. But, again,
> I'd like to hear what you think.
I cannot see _any_ possibilities for you to attack Rod in near future. If
you have a plan to show how you could do it I would be interested in
seeing it.
Cheers,
Raine
From - Wed Nov 07 20:37:22 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> Steve moved to Ska because I asked him to withdraw from Nth.
> He responded that he still wants to keep the fleet adjacent to
> Nwy, so I suppose Nwy is on his list for long-term conquest.
Well, yeah, he's been quite open about the fact he'd like
to take Norway - ideally once I start to make gains in
Austria. I guess it's a kind of threat to keep me honest
for now as well.
> I don't think he'll stab you while Austria is a threat, but he'll
> probably go for Nwy eventually. Fortunately, I think you're in
> good position to get some builds off Austria and secure your position.
And more. Kieith keeps pointing out that War is surrounded too,
that Germany is obviously planning to stab me at some point.
As you say, I have to hope that I can get enough builds from
Austria to defend myself when that happens.
> Hopefully I can also make some gains in the south (though it
> now looks like it may take a while), then we can work
> together in the end game.
I wonder how easily Raine can keep four centers with three
units in Turkey/Bul. Austria and Italy have left a lot
of centers open to each other, eventually an Austrian retreat
will slip into Bul, surely?
Keith says I should talk to you about the three of us
attacking Germany. I've told him that I'm happy to do
the talking part but until I have Rum and Sev back in
Russian hands and the Austrian units are out of Russia
talk is all I'm prepared to do. I guess you could insist
on a withdrawal of Ion's support too when he talks to
you about it.
Adam............
From - Wed Nov 07 20:37:25 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> We haven't written just you and me for a bit so I thought I'd fire off a
> quick letter.
I've been busy, well alright very lazy, myself too so
no worries. I'm going to Hamburg for a party tommorow
morning through to Sunday evening so Keith's absense
ties in well with mine.
> Overall, I'm fairly well pleased with the way FGR is
> developing; Keith is in a heap of trouble and Raine (though in a good
> position against Rod) has to fight a two-front war to get his next center.
I don't think Raine will be expecting any more centers for
a while. He'll be happy to hold out against Rod for the
immediate future. There's only Austria he could take
centers from and loosing Ion's support (indeed gaining
it's wrath) would destroy his lines against France.
I guess he'll move Con - Bul and Smy - Con to protect
his Turkish centers from my F Bla, but after that it'll
be holds and supports all around until something happens
in Austria I guess.
> Maybe I'm re-hashing old stuff but that's one of the reasons Brent and I
> never saw eye-to-eye. He thought alliances were based on promises and
> long-letters instead of aligning your goals with those of the other players.
Strange ideas indeed. Raine seemed to think it was based more on
one thing: Italy's interests and a fanatical devotion to eliminatiing
Turkey. Two things, two things.
> I'm still concerned about an eventual stab from Rod,
He's mentioned it, as much to have something to talk about
in partial press as anything else I think. Basically even
then he's saying "After Austria and Italy are dealt with"
so I think we share goals and interests for now at least.
> but from the beginning
> of the game my greatest fear was leaving Keith unchecked.
Yeah, I'm not doing nearly so well as Austria in Fermi. Two
centers now. Screwed up some ordres which didn't help but
mostly the deafening silence I get when I write to any of
the R/T/I who are all attacking me is to blame. That game
really DID suffer from a reputation effect. Ah well, I guess
they'll learn if they play enough. Amatures.
Keith manages Austria a lot better than I do though, I can
see your cause for concern.
> Now, it looks
> like we both are in a good position to snag a couple of Austrian centers. I
> like the talks you, Rod, and I are having (Rod is a top-notch diplomat, and
> tactically his suggestions have been dead on)
Agreed. I haven't talked to him as much as I'd have liked to
during the game so far but France and Russia don't have a
great deal to talk about in the early game I guess. His
press is usually enlightening though.
> Regarding Norway, I would only take it without asking if something goes
> terribly wrong in our partnership. Allowing you the extra center to fight
> Keith is well worth it, plus if I do turn on Rod, we might need the extra
> fleet in the north.
I think it's worth leaving Russian for a little while at least,
I believe it will be a more stable attack against Austria if
I grow to six centers rather than staying at five when I
make another gain. Certainly if two centers were to flow
my way, especially if you make no gains, then Norway could
switch hands easily enough.
I think the judge was down for a while yesterday (upgrading
the code by the look of it) so you and Rod and I all sent
press suggesting the same retreats. Agreement like that
is always encouraging.
Adam.....................
From - Wed Nov 07 20:37:47 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
I think we had some Judge downtime yesterday, that didn't
help but I doubt you could have talked me into retreating
Gal anywhere else anyway.
> You keep mentioning that you can't trust me because I deceived you one
> turn.
No, I can't trust you because all your moves lately have
been designed to weaken me and take my supply centers,
giving them to Italy doesn't remove your responsibility.
> This is not fair. By this reasoning, I cannot trust you either.
Well, that's certanly what you were arguing a couple of years
ago when I first tried to obtain peace between us. You insisted
that you couldn't trust me until my moves first showed that
the trust would be well placed. I think you wanted an army
disbanded and a fleet in Rum if I remember right.
> Just because Germany has not yer decieved you does not indicate that his
> is more trustworthy, but merely that he is more devious, waiting for the
> time to do the most damage when he attacks you.
Well, if he's lying about taking Norway this year then
so much the better. I can trust Germany (at least on that
issue) because he's honestly saying something that's bad
for me.
> I don't think your objective is really to give France or Germany a solo.
Indeed it isn't. My objective is to get a place in a draw.
I think that the best way to panic you and Raine enough to
get you to stop attacking me is to get dangerously close
to a French or (more likely now I think) German solo.
For "Stop attacking me" read "Give me back Rumania & Sev
and DMZ Galacia"
> Why would you want to do this? Are you going to punish me for the rest
> of the game because I deceived you one turn and took Rumania?
Well, no, just until I get Rumania and Sev back. It's nothing to
do with 'deception', I think I congratulated you on a job well
done on that first pretend-to-hold phase at least. It's to do
with needing enough centers to be considered for a place in a
draw.
> You are not dead yet, and if you want to have a continued presence in the
> game and not just be Germany's puppet before he gets tired of you and
> takes all of your centers, then we should work together. Together we can
> defeat Germany.
I agree with this, as I have said many times. The key to
getting my cooperation is to pull your forces out of Russia
and hand back Rum and Sev. DMZing Gal isn't quite so important
since we'll probably need it to fight Germany but a commitment
to do so in the long-term would be useful.
I think a good unit to take Rum would be the army in Bud,
don't you?
> Also, you may want to talk to France. As you can see, French progress
> against Italy is stalled, and perhaps France would be willing to help out
> against Germany.
We are in contact, of course. I think France would rather sit
tight for now and wait for AI to take some losses to allow
him into Italy. He's talking about stabbing Germany eventually,
and asking for my help to do that. I think this probably
increases the chances that Germany would be forced to leave
me in a draw or risk a French Solo.
Adam..........
From - Mon Nov 12 20:07:15 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany and France in 'gutsy':
Just letting you know that I'm back from Hamburg and
ready to talk about how we take Austria apart whenever
he gets back from wherever he has gone.
I've sent in my build too.
Adam..............
From - Mon Nov 12 20:07:42 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France and Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi,
> Just letting you know that I'm back from Hamburg
I hope you had a good time, Adam. Not much press flying in your absence; at
least I think so. LOL
> ...ready to talk about how we take Austria apart
> whenever he gets back from wherever he has gone.
The Italian build will most likely be F Naples which frees up the Ionian
fleet and really puts the pressure on Adam and me to deliver a solid attack
on Austria. Yea, Rod's Med line is threatened, but any sort of FGR depends
on GR success this year. Right?
My fleets will probably sit still this year, but my armies are completely
available to do whatever you two think is best. I have a couple of ideas
but nothing concrete. If we gain a center this year, we're doing well; two
would be gravy. Losing Moscow, however, would stink.
I'll put together some ideas and write later tonight. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Tue Nov 13 20:31:09 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany
and Russia in 'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
Work is very busy this week, and another game that I joined just started, so please
don't think me rude if I'm not very talkative. :-)
Nevertheless, I'll carve out some time to discuss the Spring moves when that phase
is at hand.
Rod
From - Tue Nov 13 20:31:23 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany and France in 'gutsy':
> Work is very busy this week, and another game that I joined
> just started, so please don't think me rude if I'm not very
> talkative. :-)
>
> Nevertheless, I'll carve out some time to discuss the Spring
> moves when that phase is at hand.
I'm also pretty busy in real life right now. My brother
was found beaten and unconcious on the streets on Saturday
morning. It took the hospital until Sunday night to figure
out who he was and let my parents know. He's still unconcious,
boot shaped bruises all over etc. I'm going to get a train
to Birmingham tommorow to go see what's happening, so I
might be slow on press for a few days. We have plenty of
time until the deadline, and another whole phase after
that though.
Adam.........
From - Tue Nov 13 20:31:28 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia and
Germany in 'gutsy':
Adam,
I'm sorry about your brother. That sounds pretty nasty. Please don't hesitate to
request a deadline extension if you'd like a respite.
Rod
From - Tue Nov 13 20:31:31 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia and France in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Take your time. Do what you need to do and don't worry any sort of game
delay; I'm sure Roger would put the game on pause for as long as you need.
If you feel comfortable doing so, let us know how your brother's doing.
Best wishes.
- Steve
From - Thu Nov 15 18:22:08 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1905B Thu Nov 15 2001 23:30:00 +1300
Adjustment orders for Winter of 1905. (gutsy.021)
Russia: Builds an army in Warsaw.
Italy: Builds a fleet in Naples.
England: Defaults, removing the fleet in the North Sea.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Movement for Spring of 1906.
The deadline for orders will be Tue Nov 20 2001 20:00:00 +1300.
