Fall 1904
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From - Wed Oct 24 20:17:24 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Well, Bla S Ank-Con, Syr-Smy could actually get me a
> build... ;^}
Unlikely of course, there's no way Raine won't cover Smy
this fall. I'm afraid also that if I do support into Con
it will be Bla that goes there because I have to make
up for all these heavy losses somehow.
Raine and Keith are both being quiet again. I think this
is becasue they're both not heavy pressers but it's
annoying since I need to work out a deal with one of
them.
My only colsolation is that F and G are comming and they
tell me they're planning to take on I and A rather than
me. That's good news if it's true.
Adam...........
From - Wed Oct 24 20:17:43 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Yes, I will kick Brent out of Sweden, but I'm still quite willing to let you
> keep both Norway and St Pete. Really, I am.
I'm glad, I'll need all the centers I can get now that
the south has finally resolved itself against me.
> You probably won't get both this year, but I will definitely help you out
> next year. If you order nwy - stp with support from Moscow this fall, Brent
> will retreat Swe to Nwy and you can use Moscow in the south next year.
That would be helpful. I'm fighting to keep my losses down to
one SC so that I don't have to disband. Not a very comforatble
position.
> This turn, I'm ordering yor - edi and nth s yor - edi just so you know.
> Hol and Mun are still undecided. Any thoughts?
Depends on what you're going to do with France I guess. Now that
the south has gone all wrong I kind of favour the idea of you
and Rod attacking Austria and Italy, surprisingly enough. If
that's the case then Convoy Hol to Naf would be a shock for
Brent and Mun - Tyr would make Keith reconsider his moves
a little.
> P.S. Oh yeah, other things. Yes, the Bur bounce was planned, Rod might
> move into the Med, and if I do move east, it won't be into you. That last
> one is a promise. :)
I'm glad to hear it.
> P.P.S. Regarding Rum, your best move might be rum - gal with support from
> War and Ukr. I know it's a guessing game, but if I were Keith, I would
> trust Raine and order a 3-on-1 attack on Rumania. Raine will probably hold
> Con/Bul and bounce in Smyrna. My two cents.
Well, there's negotation to get through. I've offered to support
Keith into Bul from Rum. If he wants to be sure of getting that
then he'd have to leave Rum's support uncut. He also seems
irrationally scared of loosing Gal so he may well leave
Rum for another day. I think Bul is his target.
Also Raine seems to want to make it up to me as well. Neither
Raine nor Keith write a lot so their cooperation is strained
and difficult. I think there are still things I have to offer
to both parties. We'll have to see how it goes.
Adam........
From - Wed Oct 24 20:17:46 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> If he's really worried about me, the best thing for him is
> to hold onto your centers and grab some more.
I think that depends. I don't think the cooperation between
Austria and Italy is all that strong, neither of them write
a great deal so it'll also be difficult. He could loose both
Con and Bul if Keith and I worked to make it happen. His
best bet is to keep both, but he may fear that's too hard to
achieve.
> OTOH, it seems his thinking has been backward all this time,
> so maybe he really does believe that not growing is the best
> way to defend.
Under his plan he'd have still taken Greece. As I said though,
his plan was nonsense so it's hard to know if he meant it and
he still hasn't written to me since I replied to him.
> Obviously you have to side with whoever is going to help
> you, but I hope you'll keep me in the loop so that I can
> determine the extent of my own involvement. Which way you
> go has a big influence on whether my next target should be
> Germany or Italy.
I'll keep you informed, of course. I suspect that either
way our best bet will be to have Germany go into Austria
and you into Italy though, even if I convince one of
these two to help me for a while it's not going to be
a long term thing here and I'm going to need some
genuinely friendly help rather than just move by
move pragmatism.
> Here is my thinking: If you can talk Raine out of getting
> two builds this year, and Germany is going to help you against
> Austria, it's a good opportunity for me to move into the Med.
Agreed. I won't have to talk to Raine to ensure that
the most he gets is one build though. I can support
myself into Con and certainly get it (or have Raine
lose Smy to Eric). While I could lose Rum to Keith
in the attempt, this is what I will do if neither of
them comes through with something better. I can be
almost cetain that Raine will build at most one unit
this year.
> OTOH, if you can secure peace with Austria and commit
> forces against Germany, you and I can work on Germany
> and try to foment war between Austria and Italy.
Even if I managed peace with Austria now it would be
a year or more likely two before I could get any forces
into a place where they would do any good in Germany.
If you attacked him then he would have his back turned
to me and I could make some gains but I think that
this wouldn't help you as much. For us to attack
Germany now will mean you basically waiting around
doing nothing until I can be ready. It would have
been a rush before I was suckered this spring, there's
no doubt I'd be very late for that particular
party now.
> Every letter that I have received from Keith has had some
> sort of insinuation that somebody is about to attack me,
> so I think it's very likely that he's been spooking Raine.
Possible, but this is counterproductive for Keith. He needs
Raine to believe his West is safe so that he can concentrate
on taking Russian centers, surely?
> He could be buried in work, but I did receive a reply from him.
> He finds the idea of advancing to Tyl intriguing, but he has not
> yet made a commitment.
He wrote to me also saying that he might move East but
it wouldn't be towards me and asking what I thought would
be good moves for A Hol and A Mun. I suggested a convoy
of A Hol into Naf and A Mun into Tyr. The conovoy is
probably a silly idea but it looked entertaining so I
thought I'd throw it out there.
Adam........
(Still no word from Raine OR Keith, I'd be suspcious if
that wasn't perfectly normal)
From - Wed Oct 24 20:18:05 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
Well, do you want to eliminate me, or would you
rather cost Adam two Centers? As I see it, you can
do one, or the other, but not both. Drop me a line,
and let me know.
Eric.
From - Wed Oct 24 20:18:51 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hello, did you get my last message?
Austria
From - Wed Oct 24 20:19:17 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> ...if there's a successful campaign before me,
> I'm ready to tackle it.
I like that attitude. :)
It seems like FG(R) has the upper hand over AI so I think now is the time to
push the advantage. I appreciate your willingness to move into the med and
build F Mar. My fleets are pretty well committed this year, but I'm willing
to reposition next year to make you comfortable.
Adam and I have spoken a bit and I think he understands the situation all
around. Just so you know, I've promised him support back into Norway next
spring to eliminate Brent and give him two centers up north to support his
southern campaign.
A couple of other thoughts:
> With some luck and good planning, you might have armies in
> Pru/Sil/Boh/Tyl with neither A nor R dominant in a few years.
That's a very appealing prospect. You really know what kind of carrot to
use don't you? LOL
With some luck and good planning on your part, you could have A Pie, F Tyn,
F Wes, and F NAf by next fall. I know it's a risk plunging into the med
like that, but if we both commit, Raine will be in an absolutely awful
position by F05. That gives Adam and me the leverage we need to keep Keith
in check. Hopefully, the east will be paralyzed.
> That sounds good, though if someday you have permanent
> garrisons in both Bel and Mun then I'll want to post a sentry
> in Bur. But if Mun-Tyl now and (new army) Mun-Boh in the
> Spring, I'm good with DMZs in Pic/Bur/Ruh and your army in
> Bel. Is that what you were thinking?
Yep, that's what I was thinking. If I'm to establish anything meaningful
against AR, I don't want to see you in Bur. If I do get a build this year,
I can commit to A Mun with Yor - Nth - Bel, Hol - Kie, and Mun - Boh next
spring. I'm also willing to leave Bel open in '06 if you vacate the
channel. We can talk more about that last one latter.
One other thing you should know is that if I think Gal will be dislodged
this fall, I might move Hol - Kie right away. I could see the AIR orders
ending up with that result and Keith taking Rumania. If so he might retreat
to Sil and build A Tri (or Vie). I don't think that's going to happen, but
I thought I should think ahead. If you have any info on the AIR moves, I'd
be grateful.
Also, Rod, I really don't believe we're going to stab each other any time
soon; I just think it always makes sense to mention the possibility. As
long as we're both making plans with obvious advantages over a stab, I'm
happy. Right now, I see four or five centers with my name on them and four
or five centers with your name on them; stabbing now is way premature.
Write when you can, but don't feel pressured; I think we both know what we
should be doing.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Wed Oct 24 21:44:59 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Is there anything I can say to either Keith or Raine that might help you
out? Raine already figures you and Rod have been talking a lot so I figure
I might as well add my voice to the mix. If he believe the game could
become FGR v AI, he might be willing to take Greece this year and leave
Keith to his own devices. Just a thought.
Write if you'd like, but I think we know what are orders in the north will
be. Good luck with your negotiations.
- Steve
From - Thu Oct 25 18:49:11 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Sorry for the delay. I did got your mails.
> Germany tells me that France is going to get two builds. You are right
> to be concerned. However, I think you can get two builds as well. Also,
> I can tell you I have been communicating with Germany for a few years
> now, and from what I can tell, he is hoping that France will attack you,
> which will leave France open to Germany. If Germany is going to have any
> chance to win the game, he is going to have to defeat France.
Keith, that does not guarantee that Germany will take advance of the
situation (if France leaves his border open). I am afraid of the
possibility that they keep FG going. Then it is easy for you to join and
voila it is FGA 3way. I think this is the most probable outcome if I
follow your plan. I would like to hear your comment on this. I'd like to
find a solution where you do not have a fleet when France attacks me.
That would give me some (only some) security.
> I am curious as to your sudden sense of urgency. Just last year when I
> was recommending to you to move Ven-Pie and Ion-Tun to be able to bounce
> France from Wes, you were quite certain that France was not planning to
> attack you. Have you received some new information that has changed your
> mind?
Yes, I have. I have talked with France constantly and he is pressuring me
hard diplomatically. He is _very_ good diplomat. Too bad I cannot use him
on my side much. His point is that Russia needs to be strong to be able to
help him against Germany. Now that I did not attack you he thretens will
come against me. This is simplified version of the talks between FI.
> If you are not worried about Russia moving Rum-Bul, then all you have to
> do is support Con with Bul and move Aeg-Smy. I will cut Rum's support.
> This way, you are guaranteed to get Con and Bul while keeping Smy. There
> is no need for you to take Greece.
This is what I am also thinking. What does Russia tell to you?
> There is a 100% probability that Turkey will move Syr-Smy. It is his
> only chance of survival. Plus, Russia just screwed him by moving Con-Ank
> instead of Con-Smy like Turkey expected. Turkey means nonthing now, and
> Russia is not about to do him any favors.
Losing Smyrna would not be a disaster. I'd rather take a short drawback
than a longterm disaster. Could you imagine how I feel of AFG? To my eyes
it looks like the most probable outcome at the moment.
> If you take Greece and support on holding, you are going to only get one
> build, and I will probably get one (if you don't think Russia will attack
> Bul).
I don't think Russia will attack Bul if you don't make a deal with
him. Alone he is not going to do it.
> Don't wory about Russia. He is on a fast decline. He is going to lose
> Sweden (this was already arranged with Germany), plus a net of at least
> one more (likely two). The Turkish army won't be around after this turn,
> and Russia won't be able to threaten the Turkish centers.
I am not worried of Russia. I am worried of the longterm outcome. Do you
have anything to say to ease my fears?
> Also, consider for a moment why France would send you such a threatening
> message. He is trying to scare you into attacking me now. He knows that
> if we stick together, there is nothing he will be able to do to you, and
> he will be faced by you and Germany with nowhere to go. This puts
> Germany in a strong position. France needs you to be weak, and he wants
> Russia to be strong. But, if we remain allied, Russia will be weak, and
> you will be strong, exactly what France does not want.
I agree that France is trying to get me to attack you. That is why I am
asking Greece from you. I have no future if I attack you. I am dead meat.
I think I am about to be the 4th one out. I am not in a final three. That
is what I am afraid of. I hope we can make my fears go away.
> France knows that you are going to get two builds. This is what concerns
> him. It means that he won't have any success in attacking you, and this
> creates problems between him and Germany.
I would say that France is afraid that I get two builds. It is not
guaranteed.
> If you had attacked Greece
> like France wanted, you would have only gotten one build, and you would
> be occupied by a war with me.
I certainly do not want to be in war with you. I aim is to get Greece
peacefully from you. At the moment I have 2 visions of my future
and one of them is deadly.
1: I try to keep Bul,Con,Smy (your plan). This leads to AFG.
2: I try to get Greece from you in peace.
(3: AI war is as deadly as 1 and I really don't care how I die)
> There is no reason to listen to France. He does not have your best
> interests in mind. He has France's best interests in mind.
I agree. France has his best interests in mind. You have yours. I have
mine. It is simple. I am trying to unite AI best interests.
To keep AI honest I'll tell you Russia's suggestion to me:
Con-Smy(bounced) and dislodged by Russia -> I could rebuild it against F.
Bul-Gre with 2 supports. This would give me two builds against F.
I do not want to do it that way. I hope you have some better idea.
My suggestion was (to you):
Con s ser-bul
Aeg S Con (Eric gets Smyrna but AI rather wants Eric have an extra SC than
Russia, right?)
Bul-Gre
Ion S Bul-Gre (you could dislodge your fleet and rebuild it as army)
Ser-Bul
Gre h or S Ser-Bul
Alb-Ser
I see that this ain't good either :-( I would get only one build and I am
not able to go west at all.
I would like to receive some relief to my fears from you. How is it
possible to arrange that I am not crushed between AF 'cause I cannot help
it but I feel like AFG is going to do the end game.
At the moment I am thinking of your original plan:
Con-Smy
Aeg S Bul(sc)-Con
Bul(sc)-Con
You would attack Rum
Alternative plan is:
Aeg-Smy
Bul S Con
Con S Bul
You would attack Rum.
Both plans fail to give me relief to my fear of AFG in near future.
Could you give me some thoughts how to continue so that I do not have to
be worried of AFG?
Raine
From - Thu Oct 25 18:49:13 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Thanks for your long and thougtful reply.
> > Your last note to me left me with the idea of non-cooperative Russia.
>
> Did you not get the last one I wrote again? I thought the last
> one said I'd do as you asked but I didn't much like it.
I did got a message from you before the moves but I was left with the
impression that you are not telling what you'll do. Maybe I read it
carelessly.
> Well, so long as we make sensible moves I don't think there
> should be a great deal of need for all that much trust.
It would help if I knew what you are going to do and the other way around.
> I'm not that sure that FG are all that strong, though I have no
> doubt that your moves last spring pushed them closer together.
> France and I were talking about maybe attacking Germany together
> next year if we could get you to join in the Austrian attack so
> I would have a unit or two free in the north. Now France is
> wondering what he should do and thinking about going for
> Italy instead.
France has pushed me to attack Austria indeed. I did not like the style he
used. It was his move to Mao. We talked of it a lot and in the end it left
me with a bad taste in my mouth. I told to Rod that I am going to delay my
attack on Austria due to his diploming. It was an outcome of frustration.
Rod had no other reason to move to Mao than to come against me. He
demanded me to attack Austria so that you two could attack Germany.
> Need is extreme, I need one of Bul and Con and having both would
> be a big help but I was expecting a disband this year anyway.
You'll get one of Con/Bul for sure and the other is not so sure but it is
possible.
> It
> wasn't going to hurt all that much since alb was destroyed whatever
> I did. I intend to keep Ank now so just one of Bul or con will
> stop me having to remove a unit in the adjustments. Much more
> than needing that unit I needed you to attack Austria. Still
> do basically.
I am in the middle of talks with Keith about Greece.
> There's a good chance he'll come your way now, yeah.
According to his talks and acts I would bet my money on that.
> Sweeden will be German. The only question is whether I want to
> keep Nwy or take StP basically. I can choose which I need more.
IMHO in the long run it might be better to take Stp now. Germany can take
Nwy from you later if he wants.
> Not much point in trying to rescue Eric now, though I still think
> it would have been nice to have him at three and Austria at three
> by this stage.
You are salting my wounds I hope you enjoy it...
> Very generous, I'm sure you'll understand if I force the
> issue rather than just trusting you to move won't you?
I understand. No problem here. If I were you I would support Rum hold with
Bla and Ukr but feel free to support yourself to Con (or bul if you like).
> Bul - Gre looks like 3 on 3 to me, not neccasarily going to actually work.
> Besides, you'd be a LOT better off convoying Apu - Ion - Gre than
> taking it with a fleet.
As I said I try to talk myself into Gre. You should remember that I have
been the good guy to Keith for awhile. The convoy is out of the question
'cause France is coming to Med.
> Well, assuming you actually do that. You don't need to get into
> Smy really of course a bounce there with Eric would be plenty
> to keep it green.
But a bounce in there would leave my unit to Con :-(
> Well, getting him to agree to let you into Gre will be good,
> but he's held it for so long I can't imagine him really
> wanting to do that now. I guess if you offer him Bul
> he may do.
Do you want me to offer Bul to him?
> > - You need to support Rumania from Bla and Ukr.
>
> It would be useful to be able to but I'm afraid that I
> may need F Bla to ensure I get Con or Bul back.
Like you wish.
> I will do that. Well, support something or hold, whatever.
Good.
> I'm afraid that not only can I not trust you to move out
> of Con or Bul, you can't even guarentee you'd get out of
> Bul if you tried. Almost no chance of it if you're
> also supporting into Smy. I'm going to have to put Bla
> into Con or Bul I'm afraid.
Thinking more than next moves tells you that it ain't the strongest move.
Still the decision is yours.
> I'd be reluctant to try your suggested moves even if you'd
> been a perfect puppet ally the whole game to be honest. As
> I said, the chances of you actually getting Gre with those
> moves are slim at best. What else is A Alb going to do
> but support Gre?
Ok, I see your point. You don't think my relations with Keith are good
enough to talk him to dispand the fleet. You might be right.
> Well, I'd throw everything at Gre as you suggested, but I'd
> use A Apu convoyed over Ion to get to it. A full blown attack
> on Gre (which still might fail now) only leaves one of your
> units to worry about at all: A Con.
I cannot do it 'cause France is coming after me.
> Moving it to Smy will probably bounce with Eric. If I've
> just pushed F Ank S F Bla into Con then it will be
> destroyed and can be rebuilt at home to defend against
> France or take advantage of Austria's open side.
> You'd still have F Aeg to defend Smy against me if
> you thought that was needed and you'd have taken builds
> from Gre and/or Bul.
You would be in a vulnerable position with fleets in Con and Ank but I
like the idea of rebuilding to Rome. I have to think about this more.
> You would owe me a center though, either Bul or Smy, I'm
> not that bothered which would switch to me as you made
> the first gain in Austria (Probably Tri I guess).
At the moment I am afraid I have to leave you and Keith to find out the
winner in east. I might be forced to move to west.
> This plan requires less trust, even though it also leaves
> me a center down, and it's at least as efficent against
> Austria and/or France. Actually, there's a chance you'd
> get seven centers and three builds this year! If three
> builds (one from the destroyed A Con) isn't enough to
> fight France then I don't know what is.
You should be in marketing business :-) 'Hey let's put a 4th center as an
option there into a bargain' :-)
> But the more we talk to Austria and the more we know
> of his plans the better we can refine ours anwyay,
> so let's keep the discussion open.
That is the key.
Raine
From - Thu Oct 25 18:49:22 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I understand. No problem here. If I were you I would support Rum hold with
> Bla and Ukr but feel free to support yourself to Con (or bul if you like).
I may end up feeling as though I have to support Rum, depending
on what (if anything) Keith finally says to me. He's been quiet
for some time, I think I'll have to write to him again this afternoon
even if I don't hear anything.
> As I said I try to talk myself into Gre. You should remember that I have
> been the good guy to Keith for awhile. The convoy is out of the question
> 'cause France is coming to Med.
I don't understand how A Apu would help you against France any
more than any other unit really. If you get into Gre then you
can build whatever you want and if you don't then you keep
the army anyway. Oh, I suppose Apu could be headed for Pie
but it would be quicker to just build in Ven for that I'd
have thought.
> > Well, getting him to agree to let you into Gre will be good,
> > but he's held it for so long I can't imagine him really
> > wanting to do that now. I guess if you offer him Bul
> > he may do.
>
> Do you want me to offer Bul to him?
Hummm. No, I don't think so. It would be more helpful if he
feels he has to take my support from Rum to get into Bul,
that way he will not be able to attack Rum for fear of
cutting his own support.
> Ok, I see your point. You don't think my relations with Keith are good
> enough to talk him to dispand the fleet. You might be right.
There's no harm in trying of course, but if I were in his
position I'd certainly be demanding a build this year and
losing Gre isn't the way to get one.
> You would be in a vulnerable position with fleets in Con and Ank but I
> like the idea of rebuilding to Rome. I have to think about this more.
True, but if Austria thinks that I'm on his side and you're
not then this isn't such a risk. It's also better to have
fleets in Con and Ank than just a fleet in Con and have to
disband.
> > This plan requires less trust, even though it also leaves
> > me a center down, and it's at least as efficent against
> > Austria and/or France. Actually, there's a chance you'd
> > get seven centers and three builds this year! If three
> > builds (one from the destroyed A Con) isn't enough to
> > fight France then I don't know what is.
>
> You should be in marketing business :-) 'Hey let's put a 4th center as an
> option there into a bargain' :-)
Of course it's any diplomat's job to sell his prefered strategy,
but just in case you're saying you don't believe this here then
I should count the builds: if you think you can get Gre, and you
pick up Bul too, and you disband A Smy then you do get to put
three new units in Italy as I said.
Unfortunately, as I already mentioned, Keith hasn't written
to me since we last spoke. I was assuming that this meant
he also hadn't spoken to you since you were both quiet all
of yesterday I guessed you were both too busy to write at
all. Is that true, or have you been in contact with Keith
to talk about your plans in Gre?
France is definately favouring the idea of moving toward Italy
at the moment, at least in his press to me, and this is
making Germany feel safe enough to be asking me if it's
a good idea to attack Austria. I'm telling him it's a
great idea but Germany not fighting with France, and England
being Eliminated is a little frightening, I'm a much
more natural target than Austria is I'd have thought.
If he does this it's purely because I've been writing
to him more and more openly than Keith has. I'm much rather
that we could convince France to attack Germany but to
do that we need to assure him that I will help within
a year or so. It's going to be hard to untie my units
and get them moving north in that time.
Adam..........
From - Thu Oct 25 18:49:38 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
So have you thought about my offer to support you into Bul
much yet? From the press I'm getting it looks as though
you'd have plenty of French help in taking Italy apart
if you should decide to do that instead of continuing
the attack on me. Raine has been seriously panicking
about it asking me how he can make it up to me so he
can go and defend himself against the French. Looks
like you were right about F Bre going MAO and then
into West.
Which unit would you prefer gets the support? Gre or Ser?
Raine thinks you may offer to give him Gre so I guess
that would be the best place, but you're not going to be
able to build if you do that so I doubt you will. Perhaps
then Ser would be better since Raine might try for Gre
anyway? A support from Alb should keep it safe enough,
he's got to cover Smy with Aeg.
We only have a day and a bit until the deadline so the
sooner we can sort something out the better
Adam........
From - Thu Oct 25 18:49:45 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Is there anything I can say to either Keith or Raine that might help you
> out? Raine already figures you and Rod have been talking a lot so I figure
> I might as well add my voice to the mix. If he believe the game could
> become FGR v AI, he might be willing to take Greece this year and leave
> Keith to his own devices. Just a thought.
Raine seems to be under the impression that Keith has offered him
Gre. I think that must have been a long time ago because Keith
was saying to me that he was after a build this year and he
certainly won't get one if he gives Gre to Raine. Keith hasn't
said a great deal which is disapointing. It's hard to even know
how much I should say to Raine, he wants to know what moves I
intend to make but what are the odd's he'll just pass that onto
Keith? I don't know.
I guess telling Raine that France is comming can't hurt, he
already believes that anyway. As for what you should say you
intend to do, that's more tricky. I guess anything except
that you intend to attack Austria to Keith and probably the
same story to Raine but I don't think they're all that close.
The fact Keith hasn't written to me suggests that he hasn't
written much at all rather than that he's consipring against
me I imagine.
> Write if you'd like, but I think we know what are orders in the north will
> be. Good luck with your negotiations.
Yeah, I think I'll take StP as you suggested, I doubt there's
much chance Raine will give up and retreat to Barents but
I might ask him to anyway.
Adam........
From - Thu Oct 25 18:49:48 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
I wrote
> Yeah, I think I'll take StP as you suggested, I doubt there's
> much chance Raine will give up and retreat to Barents but
> I might ask him to anyway.
Uh, Brent, obviously. There's no chance at all Raine
will retreat to Barents.
Adam.........
From - Thu Oct 25 18:50:06 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
I don't know how to tell you this any way. France wants you and I to
attack each other, and this benefits only France. You say that France is
a good diplomat. Yet you know what his motivation is.
France is probably going to attack you no matter what. If you attack me,
then you will have two unstable boarders instead of one.
France also wants Russia to stay strong so that Germany does not defeat
him too quickly. If you and France are fighting, France will be easy
pickings for Germany.
I don't think there is anything I can tell you to make you believe that
there isn't an AFG alliance. Please realize that France is trying to
pressure you, and what he is telling you is only for the benefit of
France. In fact, I have exchanged no messages at all with Germany or
France about the possibility of an alliance. Germany is unwilling to say
whether he will attack France or Russia yet. He probably does not know.
If you look at the map, you will see that you will face little danger
from France, even if he attacks you all out.
I have helped you a lot. You are going to get two builds, while I am
likely not going to get any. What more do you want from me?
Right now I am ordering Gre S Bul, and I'm attacking Rum. If you want me
to do something else, let me know.
Are you worried about the mere existence of my fleet? I can always build
another one if you destroy it. Is there somewhere you would like me to
put it? I don't think I really need it, but I think it is a bad move to
destroy it now. Russia is in a bad position right now, and I wouldn't
want to see it ruined.
Plus I think any danger that you would face from my fleet is
insignificant to the danger that France poses to you if you don't move
Ion-Tun this year. If France's diplomacy causes you not to move Ion-Tun,
then France has won. If you don't do this, he is guaranteed to take
Tunis next year. He's worried that you will do this. He is sending you
propoganda to try to get you to attack me. He doesn't want you to move
Ion-Tun.
If you are certain France is going to attack you, I think it makes no
sense for you to attack me. The endgame is not so certain as you think.
France and Germany are not playing for draws. They want to win. France
hopes to get Tunis from you, and then he will push against Germany. This
will only work if Russia is strong, though. If Russia does not die
quickly, then France has a good chance of winning if he can only get
Tunis. This is why Tunis is so important.
I will tell Germany what France is doing, assuming that you have not
already, and I'll see what I can get him to do.
Austria
From - Thu Oct 25 18:50:10 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Has Italy informed you what France is trying to do?
France is worried that Russia is going to be too weak, so France is
trying to convince Italy to attack me. If Italy does not move Ion-Tun
this turn, then France can take Tunis. If Russia remains in a good
position, then there is a good chance that France will be able to overrun
your positions. Russia tells me that France is putting a lot of pressure
on him, too.
What are you doing about this? I am worried that France is being very
convincing. If he has his way, we will both be in some trouble. Can you
send some messages to Italy indicating that you want to attack France
(even if this isn't true)? Italy is worried that the game will end in an
AFG draw. He's so certain of it that he's willing to die now by
attacking me, I think, rather than wait for what he thinks is inevitable.
Austria
From - Thu Oct 25 18:50:13 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Italy tells me you want him to bounce Con-Smy, disband Con when you
dislodge it, and then attack Greece with two supports.
How do I know whose side you are on?
Austria
From - Thu Oct 25 18:50:14 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
I don't know if I expressed myself like I wanted to. All you said is clear
to me. I try to out say main points clearly:
-I know what France is up to.
-I know his motivation.
-I do not want to attack you and I am not attacking you.
-I was hoping for some diplomatic support from you...
> I have helped you a lot. You are going to get two builds, while I am
> likely not going to get any. What more do you want from me?
You have helped me a lot and I think it is fair to say that I have helped
you too, a lot. I want no SC's, no sacrifices. Only some nice words
perhaps even plans to ease my fears of AFG.
> Right now I am ordering Gre S Bul, and I'm attacking Rum. If you want me
> to do something else, let me know.
That is fine. Has Russia suggested something special to you? I am still
unware if I will support myself Bul-Con or Con hold.
> Are you worried about the mere existence of my fleet?
In the long run, yes.
> I can always build
> another one if you destroy it.
I will only destroy it if you agree to do it. Maybe I couldn't tell this
clear enough.
> If you are certain France is going to attack you, I think it makes no
> sense for you to attack me.
Like I said I am not intending to attack you. If Russia tells you that I
am that is fine I am telling Russia that I'll attack you. In fact that is
what I have been telling to him from the start (well almost).
> The endgame is not so certain as you think.
I know it is uncertain but the probability is high to AFG.
Keith, I am sorry that I couldn't express myself like I wanted.
I just wanted you to understand what I am afraid of.
Raine
From - Thu Oct 25 18:50:15 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
I know that you are worried about AFG. I would be too as Italy. But,
what do you want me to say to ease your fears? What could I say? All I
can say is that we have worked well together, and that I have had no
contacts with France or Germany about this. I have not really
communicated at all with France, and Germany is not letting on what he
intends to do.
Russia wants to support Ser-Bul with Rum. He also suggested Gre-Bul (but
I know he thinks that you are attacking Greece with two supports). He is
suggesting Alb S Gre and Ser-Bul. What this would mean, if carried out,
is that Russia would retain Bul and Con. You would get Greece and could
build two fleets.
But look at this, Russia would just take Smy then. He already told me he
wished he had build a third southern fleet last time. He's going to get
his fleets in the Mediterranean, and he is going to be the one you will
have to fear, not me. Remember you say that France is a good diplomat.
We both know the power that France has over Russia. If France wants to
attack you, it is a good bet that he will try to get Russia to help you.
I am immune from France's influence. He has no hold over me. I have a
clear line of expansion into Russia that does not conflict with your
interests.
You can be assured that I am not going to attack you. With only one
fleet, there is nothing I can do. There is no way for me to take your
Turkish holdings or assault Italy proper. It is true that I could attack
your back while France attacked your front. But, France is going to be
attacking with three fleets, at least. If I attacked you, you would
crumble, France would get most of your supply centes, and I wouldn't be
able to keep France from advancing further. If France were to get into
the Ionian Sea, which I could not prevent, I would be in a lot of trouble.
I want you to be around, because I would not be able to hold back France
if you were defeated. This information alone should be enough to
convince you that I will not attack you.
Austria
From - Thu Oct 25 18:50:17 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Italy tells me you want him to bounce Con-Smy, disband Con when you
> dislodge it, and then attack Greece with two supports.
>
> How do I know whose side you are on?
Raine told me that he wanted to support Bul into Gre and
move Con back towards France to protect from an invasion
into the Med. How do you know which side he's on? How
do I know which side either of you are on?
Obviously I'm making enquiries of both of you to see
which, if either, is more likely to stop a catastrophic
failure of my defences.
In short, both Raine and me and you are on our own sides
and so we have to find actions which will help each other
as well as ourselves.
Things I gain from supporting you into Bul:
If you need Rum's support then I know you won't be attacking Rum
which leaves F Bla free to move into Con. I get one of my centers
back and I can't get both so I don't much care who has the other.
I'll be loosing Swe as it is, I can't stand another disband.
Things you will gain:
A center, obviously. You can use this to attack Italy or defend
against Germany should he head south (which is what he tells
me he's doing, but you'd expect that if he were heading toward
me as well). I'd recomend an attack on Italy in conjuction with
France while you and I fight Germany together from what I can
guess will happen with France and Germany after this fall but
I guess you can also use it to attack me if the Germans and
the French don't do what I'd guess they will. I'm confident
enough that the French and Germans are comming that I doubt
you'll even want to do that come next fall, probably next
spring.
I've just been attacked by someone I've been fighting for a
while in conjuction with someone who's claimed to by a friend up
until then, of course I'm writing to both and hoping one (or both)
of you will accept the plan's I've put forward.
As it happens, if you both accepted I could do both with the
suggestions I've made so far, support you into Bul and attack
Con in the hope Raine would disband it. Indeed, these are
my provisional orders as it is but I still intend to think
seriously about what to do with Rum - that F Bla really
could do with defending Rum to make it invunerable but I
don't think I can trust Raine to just move out of Con like
he said he would. It's a tricky problem for me.
Adam........
From - Thu Oct 25 18:50:18 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
Also, I forgot to mention this,
> How do I know whose side you are on?
The other way of asking this same question would
be to say what do I stand to lose if I take you up on the offer?
Even assuming Rum didn't provide the support. Gal would be no
safer, if I attack Gal then it hasn't got enough units to defend
itself anyway. Gre would be a little safer, but whatever Raine
is asking you to do will also leave Gre with only one support
unless I'm mistaken. Possibly he's asking for Gre to be handed
over to him - that's what he tells me he's doing.
Is Raine offering a center at all? If you go along with him
the best you can hope for is zero growth unless I miss my guess.
I'm offering Bul and you only have to use one unit to take it
if you decide to do so, the others can begin an attack on
Italy or just take up defence or even do as Raine has asked,
whatever that is.
Which situation would you rather be in when Germany and France
turn around next year? Trying to help Italy against me as
Germany attacks you/me and France attacks Italy or helping
France in Italy and hllping me with Germany?
Adam..........
From - Thu Oct 25 18:50:21 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
It is always good to be on-line at the same time.
I think I am satisfied now that you know how I feel. I wanted to tell you
what I am worried about. That is a sort of baseline to our future
conversations. You should know how I feel so that you know my desires and
fears.
> Russia wants to support Ser-Bul with Rum. He also suggested Gre-Bul (but
> I know he thinks that you are attacking Greece with two supports). He is
> suggesting Alb S Gre and Ser-Bul. What this would mean, if carried out,
> is that Russia would retain Bul and Con. You would get Greece and could
> build two fleets.
Russia is ready to do almost everything. By support with Rum he just wants
you to not attack Rum and cut the support. Greece is not important to
me. More important is the overall picture.
> I am immune from France's influence. He has no hold over me. I have a
> clear line of expansion into Russia that does not conflict with your
> interests.
The map is clear. There should not be any strings between you and France.
You two cannot force each other to do anything.
> You can be assured that I am not going to attack you.
I am not afraid of your attack. If you would like to attack me then I
would die and that's it. If I start preparing for your attack it means I
am doing no good to Italy. In the long run I am afraid of you but I don't
think it is wise for you to attack me now. You should be also assured that
I am not going to attack you. At first I thought that it would be a good
idea to get Greece now from you (in agreement not by force) but after
looking at the map more it is clear that I can live without Greece for
now.
What is your opinion of the two plans that we have mentioned:
In both cases you should attack Rumania with as many supports as you wish.
A) Bul-Con
Aeg S Bul-Con
Con-Smy
B) Con S Bul
Bul S Con
Aeg S Con / -Smy
I do believe that Russia is not attacking from Rum but I cannot be sure.
Raine
From - Thu Oct 25 18:50:20 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
I don't know. Italy is beginning to sound fanatical, and I have haf a
mind just to make sure I keep Greece with two supports. If I moved
Ser-Bul, I am sure I'd be bounced and you'd retain Bul, plus I'd probably
lose Gal.
I'm not really in a position to gamble right now. I think France is
going to attack Italy, and Germany will have to decide whether to attack
you or France. In any case, anything I do now carries some risk, and I'd
just as soon stay with my corrent position than risk something worse.
I expect Italy will get two builds this turn, and I probably will not get
any, unless I were to get lucky somehow. But this is okay. Italy needs
the builds to combat France, and I don't really need them.
I was hopefully that you and I could come to some agreement, but I
haven't seen any progress in that direction yet. All of your moves still
indicate that you're wanting to attack me.
Austria
From - Thu Oct 25 18:50:25 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I don't know. Italy is beginning to sound fanatical,
Begining?
> and I have haf a
> mind just to make sure I keep Greece with two supports. If I moved
> Ser-Bul, I am sure I'd be bounced and you'd retain Bul, plus I'd probably
> lose Gal.
I don't have Bul. For me to retain Bul Italy would have to move
out of it. Or I'd have to force him out I guess but Bla
can only do Bul or Con so it can't make a great deal of
difference to me.
The other point being that in order to take Gre italy would
have to use Bul as either a support or the unit taking Gre itself.
If it's supporting then A Ser will cut the support and you'll
keep Bul reguardless of A Rum's move and if it's the one taking
Gre then I'd have to risk Rum or give up on Con in
order to bounce you out anyway. Italy could bounce you
from Aeg, but then Gre hasn't been dislodged again.
> I'm not really in a position to gamble right now.
I don't think it's a particually big gamble, the worst that
could happen is you'd loose Gre and fail to get into Bul,
but if Italy and I are both against you how long can you
last anyway?
> I think France is going to attack Italy,
This is probably the biggest open secret I've ever seen in
a dip game, almost certain to happen now. Up until last year
France and I were talking about attacking Germany together,
but I've been hurt too much last move for that to work so
Italy is France's next best move.
> and Germany will have to decide whether to attack you or France.
Or you, don't forget that Mun - Tyr would leave you pretty
vunerable for next year too. Especially if Germany built
more armies in Mun in the winter.
> In any case, anything I do now carries some risk, and I'd
> just as soon stay with my corrent position than risk something worse.
I'm not sure you can stay with your current position if the
risk is as large as you indicate. Either Italy and I are both
against you, in which case a round of supports will leave you
retreating from Gal, or one of us isn't, in which case you'd be
taking no risk going to Bul: You'd either get Bul or keep Gre or,
most likely, both.
> I expect Italy will get two builds this turn,
He'll get none if I take Con and you take Bul. That would
mean you could reach the Italian mainland as quickly as
France can and get half of the booty there.
He'll get one if he takes Gre I guess, but there's no way
he'll get two unless you let him. I'm not goint to let him
take Bul AND Con from me.
> and I probably will not get
> any, unless I were to get lucky somehow. But this is okay. Italy
> needs the builds to combat France, and I don't really need them.
You have definately dismissed the idea that Germany could be
planning a calvalry for me as he's suggested to me then? You'd
need builds if Germany's headed your way. And Italy defending
against France is only a good thing if you're not taking half
the loot.
> I was hopefully that you and I could come to some agreement, but I
> haven't seen any progress in that direction yet. All of your moves
> still indicate that you're wanting to attack me.
I'd have said my moves last spring were fairly neutral. The only
contention against that was the move to Rum which we'd admitted
in press was a problem between us, and which was the only reason
we didn't have time to come to an actual agreement I think.
Even then, surely the Italian attack on me would change the way
you think I saw any battles going, never mind the fact France and
Germany will be turning around this fall, certainly by the next
spring. As I've said, Steve tells me he's heading into Austria
but I would much prefer to not have to hope he's not lying and
to have some form of defence ready. It's also worth remembering
that Vie and Tri are as both as close to Munich as War is.
Adam...........
From - Thu Oct 25 18:50:27 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Are you moving to Tyrolia?
Austria
From - Thu Oct 25 18:50:28 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Here's what I'm worried about:
I move Ser-Bul, Alb S Gre, Gre S Ser-Bul
You move Rum-Bul, Bla-Con, Ank S Bla-Con
Italy moves Con-Smy, Bul-Gre, Aeg S Bul-Gre, Ion S Bul-Gre
This leaves you with Con and Bul, and Italy gets two builds from Gre and
his disband.
Austria
From - Thu Oct 25 18:50:33 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Good, I am glad that we understand each other.
> What is your opinion of the two plans that we have mentioned:
> In both cases you should attack Rumania with as many supports as you wish.
> A) Bul-Con
> Aeg S Bul-Con
> Con-Smy
> B) Con S Bul
> Bul S Con
> Aeg S Con / -Smy
>
> I do believe that Russia is not attacking from Rum but I cannot be sure.
If Russia does not move Rum-Bul, then it does not matter what you do. I
suggest the following:
A: Gre S Bul, and I will attack Rum
I: Bul S Con, Con H, Aeg-Smy
This will guarantee you two builds no matter what happens. If Russia
moves Rum-Bul with support from Bla, he will destroy your F Bul, but you
will get to rebuild it. Likewise, if he moves Rum-Bul and Bla-Con with
support from Ank, he will destroy your A Con but you can rebuild it. You
would keep Bul and Smy. If Russia moves Rum, he will lose Rum.
Now, you could also order Con-Smy, Bul-Con, Aeg S Bul-Con. As long as you
are certain that Turkey is moving to Smy, this is perhaps a better set of
moves than the one I suggested above. The reason is that it protects your
A Con from getting destroyed--having an army is useful because it will
allow you to more quickly take Ankara for another build next year. If
anything gets destroyed, it will be your F Bul. Now, it wouldn't be a
total disaster if Turkey didn't move to Smy. It would mean that Russia
would retain Bul or Con, but these would be easily taken next year. You
would have to move Aeg-Ion to protect against France, but the defense
would still be easy.
So, the question you have to ask yourself is, are you willing to bet that
Turkey will move Syr-Smy in order to protect your army in Con? I
personally think that the long-term benefits favor the second set of
moves, considering all the circumstances, but only you can make that
determination for yourself. (As I said before, I am almost entirely
certain that Turkey will move Syr-Smy, and if you think Rum-Bul is not
likely, then it is all a moot point anyway).
In any case, I will order Gre S Bul and the attack on Rum. Your moves
are independent of mine, so do what you think is best, and don't tell me
which.
Austria
From - Thu Oct 25 18:50:37 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I move Ser-Bul, Alb S Gre, Gre S Ser-Bul
> You move Rum-Bul, Bla-Con, Ank S Bla-Con
> Italy moves Con-Smy, Bul-Gre, Aeg S Bul-Gre, Ion S Bul-Gre
>
> This leaves you with Con and Bul, and Italy gets two builds from Gre and
> his disband.
Okay, I see. You're right that would be pretty tempting
if I knew you were ordering Ser - Bul. Well, if I trusted
Italy much anyway.
The problem with it is that I can't be sure that you would
move to Ser anyway and so I'd risking Raine keeping Bul
and you taking Rum with a double support in from Bud and
Gal.
In other words, I can't do what you've said you fear becasue
I also have no way of trusting you (or Raine come to that).
You could order Bud S Gal - Rum, support Gre from all sides
and I'd end up losing Rum as well as Bud. Raine could
also order Aeg S Con and I'd loose that too, though
Eric would live to see another day and I doubt Raine
wants that. If I were Italy I wouldn't mind that at
all but Raine is different to me in that way.
I'll give it some more thought this evening, my instinct
says that introducing randomness is the only way to
solve a problem like this. If we both base our moves on
a dice roll then we can't take advantage of prior knowledge
of each other's moves. It'd need working out more closely
than I have time for right now though so I'll get back
to you tommorow.
Adam........
From - Thu Oct 25 18:50:41 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
The way I look at it, there is little chance that I am going to get a
build this turn. Something extraordinary would have to happen. How can
I count on both you and Italy to to any particular thing?
Since I can be virtually certain of losing no supply centers, unless
there is a compelling reason to take a risk, why should I? The chance
for gain is remote unless one of us has good information about the other
two, and I think it is very unlikely that I will know the moves of both
you and Italy with any certainty.
Do you see my point of view? If I wait, then things only get better.
Italy's not going to want to attack me after this turn, and I doubt you
will either.
Austria
From - Thu Oct 25 18:50:51 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Just a follow-up; Keith asked me point blank whether or not I'll be moving
into Tyrolia. Heh, heh, heh. That's a bit disconcerting; I'd like to know
your thoughts.
The sooner the better. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Thu Oct 25 18:51:19 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi,
I guess I owe you for two letters. My, those were close together. :)
> Has Italy informed you what France is trying to do?
Nope he hasn't. Italy writes the least on the board, even England and
Turkey write more if that can believed.
> France is worried that Russia is going to be too weak, so
> France is trying to convince Italy to attack me.
I'm a little worried about a weak Russia, too. A weak Russia unbalances the
game in a way I'm just not willing to confront quite yet. I'm also worried
about a strong France. Strong and in the med doesn't bother me so much, but
strong and rolling over the North Sea would cause both of us problems.
No matter what France says and does, though, I'm *not* trying to convince
Italy to attack you; there's no way I want to see you collapse or see Italy
grow.
> ...there is a good chance that France will be able
> to overrun your positions.
Don't worry about me. I will not let Rod get an advantage in our
negotiations; I have just as much incentive to see FI fight as you do and am
working just as hard to see it happen.
Now the biggie:
> Are you moving to Tyrolia?
If that's what it takes to get Rod into the Med, then yes.
If Rod does stab me (which he won't), I can just back away and claim no harm
no foul. Afterall, you and Raine have both been there this game, why not
me? Your best centers will still be in Russia and Raine's best centers will
then be in France. I don't mind a solidified AI at all; I figure that if
Rod wants you and Raine fighting, then I should really want the opposite.
Write when you can; I'd like to talk some more.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Thu Oct 25 22:49:21 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Closing in on another deadline... Any requests for the boys in blue? I'm
afraid that Germany will dislodge my fleet in Sweden, and he can force Edi
unless you stop him. If you're going to keep me around this is the turn
you're going to have to act. Otherwise I'm out of here!
Brent
From - Thu Oct 25 22:49:29 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> It seems like FG(R) has the upper hand over AI so I think now is the time to
> push the advantage.
Agreed.
> Just so you know, I've promised him support back into Norway next
> spring to eliminate Brent and give him two centers up north to support his
> southern campaign.
However you want to handle the north is fine with me.
> I know it's a risk plunging into the med
> like that, but if we both commit, Raine will be in an absolutely awful
> position by F05. That gives Adam and me the leverage we need to keep Keith
> in check. Hopefully, the east will be paralyzed.
I agree completely. If we both take the plunge, it will work out well
all around.
> If I'm to establish anything meaningful
> against AR, I don't want to see you in Bur.
OK.
> If I do get a build this year,
> I can commit to A Mun with Yor - Nth - Bel, Hol - Kie, and Mun - Boh next
> spring.
Sounds good!
> I'm also willing to leave Bel open in '06 if you vacate the
> channel. We can talk more about that last one latter.
That's a good idea. Let's keep it in mind and talk it over next year.
> One other thing you should know is that if I think Gal will be dislodged
> this fall, I might move Hol - Kie right away.
That sounds prudent. Of course, it's your call.
> If you have any info on the AIR moves, I'd
> be grateful.
I talk to them all occasionally, but usually their moves surprise me, so
I'm afraid I don't have any reliable intelligence for you.
> As
> long as we're both making plans with obvious advantages over a stab, I'm
> happy.
I agree completely. The benefit of our cooperation is far from over.
:-)
> Just a follow-up; Keith asked me point blank whether or not I'll be moving
> into Tyrolia. Heh, heh, heh. That's a bit disconcerting; I'd like to know
> your thoughts.
Well, he didn't hear it from me. :-) My exchanges with Keith are
usually along the lines of: "Hey, how's it going over there in the
east?" "Just fine, but you'd better watch out for Germany." Perhaps
he's just starting to believe his own fear-mongering. ;-)
I suppose it's possible that Adam is telling Keith things in order to
form AR against G, but I think that's a long shot. What I've heard from
Adam is that he thinks both Keith and Raine are leading him on, and of
course he would like to see you move against anyone other than him, so I
think Adam would choose you as an ally rather than Keith.
Rod
From - Fri Oct 26 19:54:55 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> I'll keep you informed, of course. I suspect that either
> way our best bet will be to have Germany go into Austria
> and you into Italy though
I think you're right. I have to attack either Germany or Italy, and I
can't handle Germany alone; whereas if Germany moves south, it might
distract Raine enough to give me good prospects in the Med.
> I can support
> myself into Con and certainly get it (or have Raine
> lose Smy to Eric). While I could lose Rum to Keith
> in the attempt, this is what I will do if neither of
> them comes through with something better.
I think that's a good idea. If you get a *believable* offer from either
then that's probably you're best best (though I don't think I'd trust
either one too much in your shoes), but if not then you just need to
look out for yourself as best you can.
> I can be
> almost cetain that Raine will build at most one unit
> this year.
Well, that's good for me then I guess. ;-) And if Germany does offer
you some assistance, that's good for you too. :-) FWIW, I believe that
Steve will make a foray south, but more because he believes he can take
care of you whenever he wants than because he's interested in a
long-term partnership - but I suppose you already figured that out.
> If you attacked him then he would have his back turned
> to me and I could make some gains but I think that
> this wouldn't help you as much.
I understand that would be your preference, but I'm leary of hitting
Germany before you're ready to offer significant assistance. I just
don't think I'd get very far, and I don't see any point in making an
enemy if it's just going to be a quagmire.
> > so I think it's very likely that he's been spooking Raine.
>
> Possible, but this is counterproductive for Keith. He needs
> Raine to believe his West is safe so that he can concentrate
> on taking Russian centers, surely?
I think Keith believes that he can keep Raine in line by jerking his
chain. Raine worrying about me just makes him want to kow-tow to
Austria all the more.
Rod
From - Fri Oct 26 19:55:03 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> I'm
> afraid that Germany will dislodge my fleet in Sweden, and he can force Edi
> unless you stop him.
That matches with what I've been hearing. Your best bet is probably to
go for Nwy.
> If you're going to keep me around this is the turn
> you're going to have to act.
I have several options, and keeping England viable is one of them. I'd
like to maintain that option, but I'm not ready to promise that I'll
keep G out of Edi. I will certainly consider it.
Rod
From - Fri Oct 26 19:55:13 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
I think we're all set, so I'm going to go ahead and enter my orders.
Bur is a DMZ, and I'm moving Eng-MAO, MAO-Wes in concert with your
advance to Tyl.
If any issues do arise, I should be available during the day on Friday
to discuss them.
Rod
From - Fri Oct 26 19:55:48 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
This ain't the first time I found out that I have difficulties expressing
my hopes and fears.
> Good, I am glad that we understand each other.
Me too.
> In any case, I will order Gre S Bul and the attack on Rum. Your moves
> are independent of mine, so do what you think is best, and don't tell me
> which.
I _want_ to tell you that I am going to move Apu-Ven :-) This should not
be a surprise to you but I want you to know it for sure.
Have you talked with Eric? Any talks of possibility of non Syr-Smy move?
Would you like to give me your opinion of Belgium?
Raine
From - Fri Oct 26 19:55:55 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I hope you liked my Ven-Apu. I moved like that to make our border even
more secure. I am now one more move away from you. You should feel free to
attack Germany with all you got.
I'll continue the honest policy. I am afraid of Mao-Wes, Eng-Mao and a
fleet build in Mar. Your move to Mao last turn even that you mentioned it
before was not good news to me. Your explanation was weak, I mean you did
not tell me the whole truth (well, who does in these games anyway :-) .
> Adam tells me that he's been discussing things with both you and Keith.
> Personally, I hope that you and he come to agreement, but if you feel
> that you have more to gain from a relationship with Austria, that's your
> prerogative.
I think you are the winner no matter who I choose to ally with Austria or
Russia. All you have to do is to make sure Germany don't turn against you
after E is gone.
> I am considering moving MAO-NAO, but I haven't made up my mind yet. I
> will either move to NAO or Hold. Regardless, if you feel that you need
> to move a defensive unit west, I won't complain.
It is good to hear your considerations. I am considering to move Apu-Ven
and I _need_ to move west a bit now. I am considering (In fact I cannot
prevent it) to get one of my Bul/con destroyed to get some defense against
you in west. I hope I am wasting my time, I do! I hope you are not coming
to Med but I cannot help it, your talks and actions all tell me that you
are coming :-( Do you want to try to ease my fears? Do you dare to tell me
the future of Belgium?
Raine
From - Fri Oct 26 19:56:01 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
I am in a nasty situation. I need your assistance more than one could
imagine from the amount of press from I to G.
I am aware of the French possibility to move against me now. I think
possibility is high. I know that you cannot do much to prevent it. It
should be good to you if France turns against me now. You have still work
to be done in Scandinavia if you like.
Like I told you before France is not happy of my aggressive moves against
Russia. France would have liked to see strong Russia who would work with
him against you. I got some 'diplomatic art' from Rod before last moves.
He is a true diplomat. He put his words so nicely and asked me to attack
Austria so that he won't attack me. Nice words cannot change the fact that
have more to gain from AG friendship than FR.
F and R seems to be _very_ open to each other. I am harasshing Russia and
that should help you a lot. I want you to know that I am making silently a
favour to you here in south :-) You can tell me that I am egoist who
wants to tell people how good he is and to a certain point it is true. I
hope you see what I am doing here and I hope I will see you moving towards
France when I am under pressure.
BTW, I am moving Apu-Ven. Ven-Apu was a try to get France from attacking
me. May I ask of the future of Belgium? I think it tells me a lot of
French intentions if I knew what happens in Belgium. So, I would really
appreciate it if you could tell me about it. It should be in your
interests to prevent France from growing in my expense. At the moment
France can take Tunis from me next year if I am careless.
Raine
From - Fri Oct 26 19:56:09 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I locked myself out of my home yesterday :-( Sometimes I can be so
absent-minded. I forgot my keys at home and my cell phone was getting
charged there too. I had to wonder some hours waiting for my girlfried who
was in theatre practice. You can imagine that I hoped her to come back
immediately and not going for shopping with her friends.
> I may end up feeling as though I have to support Rum, depending
> on what (if anything) Keith finally says to me. He's been quiet
> for some time, I think I'll have to write to him again this afternoon
> even if I don't hear anything.
I am under impression that you two are talking.
> > Do you want me to offer Bul to him?
>
> Hummm. No, I don't think so. It would be more helpful if he
> feels he has to take my support from Rum to get into Bul,
> that way he will not be able to attack Rum for fear of
> cutting his own support.
OK.
> True, but if Austria thinks that I'm on his side and you're
> not then this isn't such a risk.
Do you think this is possible?
> Unfortunately, as I already mentioned, Keith hasn't written
> to me since we last spoke. I was assuming that this meant
> he also hadn't spoken to you since you were both quiet all
> of yesterday I guessed you were both too busy to write at
> all. Is that true, or have you been in contact with Keith
> to talk about your plans in Gre?
Taking into account the time differences I can say that Keith is talking
continuously. His press can sometimes be very short though.
> France is definately favouring the idea of moving toward Italy
> at the moment, at least in his press to me, and this is
> making Germany feel safe enough to be asking me if it's
> a good idea to attack Austria. I'm telling him it's a
> great idea but Germany not fighting with France, and England
> being Eliminated is a little frightening, I'm a much
> more natural target than Austria is I'd have thought.
> If he does this it's purely because I've been writing
> to him more and more openly than Keith has. I'm much rather
> that we could convince France to attack Germany but to
> do that we need to assure him that I will help within
> a year or so. It's going to be hard to untie my units
> and get them moving north in that time.
I have mentioned the possiblity of dislodging your southern fleets and
then you could rebuild them. I will look at you as less threatening when
you have less fleets. Now it is ot possible to dislodge your fleets but
you can also dispand one if you need to dispand in future.
What comes to France attacking Germany that would be great. I am still
moving west now to prevent the inevitable. Mao-Wes;Eng-Mao and a fleet
build in Mar is disastrous to me if I am not prepared.
You have not told me your intentions. Also you were not enthuastic of my
proposal. I understand your situation and your point of view. Maybe it is
better that we move independently 'cause we might have desire to use the
knowledge of the others moves selfishly.
I want to underline the fact that I am NOT unhappy if my units are
destroyed in east. I would love to rebuild them :-)
Raine
From - Fri Oct 26 19:56:13 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Do you see my point of view? If I wait, then things only get better.
> Italy's not going to want to attack me after this turn, and I doubt you
> will either.
I do see your point of view, though it's a much more conservative
method of play than I'd normaly use. He Who Dares Wins is at least
as valid as staying safe and waiting it out.
For your information: Rod has said to me that he thinks Steve
isn't lying when he tells me he would sooner attack Asutria
than Russia. Apparently Steve's reasoning is that he feels
he'll be able to pick me off any time he wants but he
thinks you are more of a threat.
I can't imagine it changing your mind now, but I thought
extra information can only be useful.
Adam.........
From - Fri Oct 26 19:56:26 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I think you're right. I have to attack either Germany or Italy, and I
> can't handle Germany alone; whereas if Germany moves south, it might
> distract Raine enough to give me good prospects in the Med.
It seems that Keith is unswayable, he's intending to at least
say he will order supports all around this fall. Something
has made him frightened of Italy so he's going to need to
send Gre support from Alb and Ser in order to keep it.
Hence he feels he can't accept my support into Bul.
Raine, on the other hand, wants me to dislodge as many
of his units as possible so he can rebuild them in Italy.
There's a good chance he won't retreat Con or Bul of
I dislodge them and you'll have to face them in the Med.
There doesn't seem to be any easy way out of my fights
here. I doubt it will resolve until Steve choses a victim
from Austria and I. Hopefully he'll chose Austria, this
seems to be what you and he are saying, but presumably
it's not what he's saying to Keith so who knows. Keith
appears to think that I'll get Germany on my back next
year and that this will make him more confident that
I'm not tricking him with my support.
> I think that's a good idea. If you get a *believable* offer from either
> then that's probably you're best best (though I don't think I'd trust
> either one too much in your shoes), but if not then you just need to
> look out for yourself as best you can.
No real offers from either of 'em, and nothing prospective either.
The question is just whether to risk losing Rum in order to
get Bul or Con, and then which to take: Bul or Con. Taking
Bul is more anti-Austrian and Raine doesn't seem to much care
so maybe Con would be best there.
> > I can be
> > almost cetain that Raine will build at most one unit
> > this year.
>
> Well, that's good for me then I guess.
While he'll only be getting one EXTRA unit, he may well be
building more than one if he disbands Con or Bul when I
dislodge it.
> if Germany does offer
> you some assistance, that's good for you too. :-) FWIW, I believe that
> Steve will make a foray south, but more because he believes he can take
> care of you whenever he wants than because he's interested in a
> long-term partnership - but I suppose you already figured that out.
I'm about 80% sure he'll move into Austria, which isn't bad for
this game I guess. Not sure why he'd think of me as easier to
destroy than Austria once I collected a few gains in Turkey
and Austria itself, but I'm sure he does think that. I guess
Keith and Steve played together before, he has seemed more
frightened of Keith than was strictly rational taking this
game alone into account for some time.
> I think Keith believes that he can keep Raine in line by jerking his
> chain. Raine worrying about me just makes him want to kow-tow to
> Austria all the more.
Probably true, but it's backfired on him. Italy just wants
units in the West Med now, he'd be happy to take Gre by
trickery from what he's said to me. Unforunately it seems
that Keith has gotten wind of that so he won't even be
able to take it by force.
Adam.........
From - Fri Oct 26 19:56:31 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I locked myself out of my home yesterday
At least there was someone around with a key to let you
in. I live alone so I have to be more careful.
> I am under impression that you two are talking.
We've exchanged a few emails last night but didn't really
get anywhere to be honest.
> > True, but if Austria thinks that I'm on his side and you're
> > not then this isn't such a risk.
>
> Do you think this is possible?
Hard to say, at the moment Keith seems to be pretty well
convinced that at least one of us is after him and he
say's he's going to do a round of supports basically.
>From what he's saying to me, there's no way you'll
get Gre since he's frightened of exactly the attack
you described - Ion & Aeg S Bul -> Gre - so he says
he intends to support Gre with Alb and Ser.
In his words, he said you were "begining to sound fanatical"
and he thought there was a good chance he'd lose a center
if he tried to do anything other than hold still.
Quite a turn around since the spring when he was insisting
he wanted to get a build this year. He's refusing my support
to Bul even.
> Taking into account the time differences I can say that Keith is talking
> continuously. His press can sometimes be very short though.
Yeah, I had to stay at the computer pretty late to have a
decent dialog with him yesterday.
> What comes to France attacking Germany that would be great. I am still
> moving west now to prevent the inevitable. Mao-Wes;Eng-Mao and a fleet
> build in Mar is disastrous to me if I am not prepared.
I think that's exactly what you can expect to happen, talking with
France and Germany leads me to believe that France doesn't think
I could get untangled in time to help him in Germany. To be honest,
I've had to agree with him.
That leaves the German. Apparently Rod thinks that Steve thinks he
can just pick me off any time he wants but is more frightened
of Keith so Steve will probably move in to attack Austria.
So says Rod anyway, and his testimony is about the most
believeable. If that happens then timing will be everything
to my chances: I'd have to get the northern units ready
just in time to anticipate when Steve does turn on me.
If he attacks me now though, I'm doomed anyway.
> You have not told me your intentions. Also you were not enthuastic of my
> proposal. I understand your situation and your point of view. Maybe it is
> better that we move independently 'cause we might have desire to use the
> knowledge of the others moves selfishly.
Well, I did suggest what I considered to be the best plan. I
will probably take Con, though possibly Bul. If Keith orders
how he says he will then it would be impossible for you to
abandon Bul anyway so your idea of walking out of the centers
won't work. The only worry with taking Bul/Con is that it leaves
Rum vunerable if Keith doesn't double-support Gre in the end.
I may still order Rum to support Keith into Bul, unless you
have a problem with this, even though he say's he won't be making
the move. I think the signal it sends him might help me out a
little in the future.
> I want to underline the fact that I am NOT unhappy if my units are
> destroyed in east. I would love to rebuild them :-)
Do you have any particular preference on which units you'd
rather see disbanded? I'm not promising to honour your
prefrence but I'll take it into account.
Adam...........
From - Fri Oct 26 19:56:34 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
Sorry, that was supposed to go to France. Damn.
Adam...........
From - Fri Oct 26 19:56:36 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
Damnit, I just sent this to Austria by mistake. Hummm, I
don't think it'll do any harm, and could possibly do some
good so I guess not a huge problem. Anyway:
> I think you're right. I have to attack either Germany or Italy, and I
> can't handle Germany alone; whereas if Germany moves south, it might
> distract Raine enough to give me good prospects in the Med.
It seems that Keith is unswayable, he's intending to at least
say he will order supports all around this fall. Something
has made him frightened of Italy so he's going to need to
send Gre support from Alb and Ser in order to keep it.
Hence he feels he can't accept my support into Bul.
Raine, on the other hand, wants me to dislodge as many
of his units as possible so he can rebuild them in Italy.
There's a good chance he won't retreat Con or Bul of
I dislodge them and you'll have to face them in the Med.
There doesn't seem to be any easy way out of my fights
here. I doubt it will resolve until Steve choses a victim
from Austria and I. Hopefully he'll chose Austria, this
seems to be what you and he are saying, but presumably
it's not what he's saying to Keith so who knows. Keith
appears to think that I'll get Germany on my back next
year and that this will make him more confident that
I'm not tricking him with my support.
> I think that's a good idea. If you get a *believable* offer from either
> then that's probably you're best best (though I don't think I'd trust
> either one too much in your shoes), but if not then you just need to
> look out for yourself as best you can.
No real offers from either of 'em, and nothing prospective either.
The question is just whether to risk losing Rum in order to
get Bul or Con, and then which to take: Bul or Con. Taking
Bul is more anti-Austrian and Raine doesn't seem to much care
so maybe Con would be best there.
> > I can be
> > almost cetain that Raine will build at most one unit
> > this year.
>
> Well, that's good for me then I guess.
While he'll only be getting one EXTRA unit, he may well be
building more than one if he disbands Con or Bul when I
dislodge it.
> if Germany does offer
> you some assistance, that's good for you too. :-) FWIW, I believe that
> Steve will make a foray south, but more because he believes he can take
> care of you whenever he wants than because he's interested in a
> long-term partnership - but I suppose you already figured that out.
I'm about 80% sure he'll move into Austria, which isn't bad for
this game I guess. Not sure why he'd think of me as easier to
destroy than Austria once I collected a few gains in Turkey
and Austria itself, but I'm sure he does think that. I guess
Keith and Steve played together before, he has seemed more
frightened of Keith than was strictly rational taking this
game alone into account for some time.
> I think Keith believes that he can keep Raine in line by jerking his
> chain. Raine worrying about me just makes him want to kow-tow to
> Austria all the more.
Probably true, but it's backfired on him. Italy just wants
units in the West Med now, he'd be happy to take Gre by
trickery from what he's said to me. Unforunately it seems
that Keith has gotten wind of that so he won't even be
able to take it by force.
Adam.........
From - Fri Oct 26 19:56:38 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Damnit, I just sent this to Austria by mistake.
Oops! :-)
> Hummm, I don't think it'll do any harm, and could possibly do some
> good so I guess not a huge problem.
I think you're right. Keith might very well respond by not hitting Rum and by not
letting Raine take Gre. A benefit for each of us. :-)
> There's a good chance he won't retreat Con or Bul of
> I dislodge them and you'll have to face them in the Med.
OK. Thanks for the warning.
> Keith appears to think that I'll get Germany on my back next year
Keith says this sort of thing to me everytime I talk with him. I have learned
to ignore him.
> The question is just whether to risk losing Rum in order to
> get Bul or Con, and then which to take: Bul or Con.
Con is probably a better position for you right now. Bul would be difficult to
hold, and Con gives you future access to the Med.
If you're going to risk Rum, I think it should be for an attack on Gal.
> While he'll only be getting one EXTRA unit, he may well be
> building more than one if he disbands Con or Bul when I
> dislodge it.
That had not occured to me. It appears that Raine is more clever than I thought.
:-) Regardless, Italian builds with fewer centers is better than Italian builds
with more centers.
> I guess
> Keith and Steve played together before, he has seemed more
> frightened of Keith than was strictly rational taking this
> game alone into account for some time.
He has mentioned to me that he considers Keith to be the most dangerous player
on the board. At least it takes his attention off you some, eh? ;-)
Rod
From - Fri Oct 26 19:56:40 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> I hope you liked my Ven-Apu.
As long as you stay out of Pie, I'm not concerned about armies stationed in Ven
or Apu.
> I am afraid of Mao-Wes, Eng-Mao and a fleet build in Mar.
I understand your concern. I would be worried about it too. However, I don't
think that's a good move for me. I would be vulnerable to Germany, and I'm sure
you could mount a formidable defense before I got very far. I believe we still
have the most to gain from leaving each other alone.
> I am considering to move Apu-Ven
> and I _need_ to move west a bit now.
OK. That is prudent, and I don't blame you.
> I am considering (In fact I cannot
> prevent it) to get one of my Bul/con destroyed to get some defense against
> you in west.
Clever! :-) It gives you the opportunity to make some more choices in the
retreat and builds phases.
> Do you want to try to ease my fears? Do you dare to tell me
> the future of Belgium?
Steve has suggested that we trade Bel for Edi next year. I'd rather keep Bel
for myself, so my plan is to build armies and defend it.
Rod
From - Fri Oct 26 19:56:43 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> I think you're right. Keith might very well respond by
> not hitting Rum and by not letting Raine take Gre. A
> benefit for each of us. :-)
Yeah, hopefully. Mostly I just hope he doesn't attack Rum,
but then if he's really as frightened as he appears then
he won't risk loosing Gre to do it.
> Keith says this sort of thing to me everytime I talk with
> him. I have learned to ignore him.
Well, this time he has history on his side, Germany
usually seems to attack Russia before Austria. Still,
usually isn't always and the people who are closest
to Germany, IE yourself and Steve himself, seem to
think Austria is the target of the week so, fair
enough.
> Con is probably a better position for you right now. Bul
> would be difficult to hold, and Con gives you future access to the Med.
That access to the Med thing is what I was thinking too. Plus,
Smy shouldn't be too hard to get later on if Raine does disband
the Turk army.
> If you're going to risk Rum, I think it should be for an attack on Gal.
Hummm, the attack on Gal could be done while I collected Con
I guess, but it would kill any chance I have of making some
peace with Austria, and making that peace only to turn
on him has it's attractions as well.
> That had not occured to me. It appears that Raine is more clever than
> I thought. :-)
I might be able to explain this: When he wrote to me talking about
sailing his units out of Con and Bul so that they remain Russian
I told him it'd be quicker to disband the things basically. Sorry
about that.
> He has mentioned to me that he considers Keith to be the most
> dangerous player on the board. At least it takes his attention
> off you some, eh? ;-)
He's said the same thing to me, which is why it makes sense
that he'll actually do what he says and move south rather
than east. I'm not sure he's right, but I'm greatful for
the fact anyway.
Adam........
From - Fri Oct 26 19:56:44 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Yes, I think we are all set; no issues on my end. I'll submit my orders now
and get back to work.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Fri Oct 26 19:56:46 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
My spies have intercepted a message you sent intended for the French.
You know, France is a very good diplomat. He's good at convincing people
to do things that are not in their best interests. I wonder if he had
any hand in convincing you not to attack Germany with me earlier in the
game. No matter. Let's look at things from France's point of view. He
is faced with a situation where he has to attack either Germany or Italy,
and it is in his best interests to have Germany move south, and to try to
convince you to attack Italy, etc. But be careful, his best interests
are not always your best interests. If France can get Tunis, which he
might if Germany moves against Italy, and if he can prevent Germany from
getting your supply centers, then it will be relatively easy for him to
conquer Germany and get Stp as his last supply center.
France has been trying hard this turn to get Italy to attack me. This
will make France's job that much easier.
If it comes to a situation where France takes Tunis, then you can bet
that I will be trying to make sure that France is not able to get
Munich. It is not in my interests to attack you. Germany moving south
is a big threat for me as well as for Italy.
I still don't want to attack you. I just want to minimze the threat you
pose so that I can deal with other threats. This is why I wanted to see
your fleet in Rumania. If you had your fleet in Rum and an army in Sev,
you would be just as protected, and would pose less of a threat to me. I
don't think Italy is going to be able to threaten Ank any time soon, with
France coming his way.
Austria
From - Fri Oct 26 19:56:48 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Have you talked with Eric? Any talks of possibility of non Syr-Smy move?
No, I don't feel like there's anything I can say to him. I am sure he
will move Syr-Smy unless he feels he can get at someone by not.
> Would you like to give me your opinion of Belgium?
Okay, I have gotten more information on the situation we are facing right
now. Germany is going to move Mun-Tyr. He's doing this to make sure
that France keeps moving into the Med.
Also, Germany's official line to Russia is that Germany is going to
attack me (Austria). I do not really believe this, but it is good
propganda from Germany. He will probably move a couple of units South,
and then will eventually stab France or Russia. I am sure he feels that
he can conquer Russia at any time.
I need a firm committment from you that you will not attack me. We need
to stick together here. If Germany helps Russia against me, something
that I had not anticipated, then we both could be in trouble.
First, Germany's army in Tryolia is going to be a pain for you. Second,
Germany were to get any Austrian centers, then he could delay his attack
on France.
I can prevent Germany from using his armies against you, but only if I am
at full strength and if Russia is weakened.
What do you think?
Austria
From - Fri Oct 26 19:56:55 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> My spies have intercepted a message you sent intended for the French.
Yeah, appologies again for that.
> I wonder if he had
> any hand in convincing you not to attack Germany with me earlier in the
> game.
Hard to remember to be honest, I suspect he would have at least
agreed it was a good idea. I still think it would have been if
it wasn't for Raine being obsessed with finishing off Turkey
before he did anything else. Still, bygones and that.
> Let's look at things from France's point of view. He
> is faced with a situation where he has to attack either Germany or Italy,
> and it is in his best interests to have Germany move south, and to try to
> convince you to attack Italy, etc.
Indeed, though my aims in the south have been to generally get
untangled for a short while now. I want to have some northern
units to defend when Germany comes, whether that be real soon
now, or after he's been fighting you for a while.
> France has been trying hard this turn to get Italy to attack me. This
> will make France's job that much easier.
He's been trying to do that, at least partically at my request,
for a couple of years. I'm not so bothered about it anymore,
it's essentially too late. Two years ago it would have been
just great but now I mostly need to stop fighting in the south
and get some northern units.
> If it comes to a situation where France takes Tunis, then you can bet
> that I will be trying to make sure that France is not able to get
> Munich. It is not in my interests to attack you. Germany moving south
> is a big threat for me as well as for Italy.
Did you read something in that press which gave you the impression
I thought Germany moving south was aimed at Italy? From my understanding
Germany is considering attacking you, Italy would be a second
prize or bonus at best. I've been telling you this all phase.
I've also been pointing out that the FG situation, never mind the
fact Raine decided to join your side of our battle rather than
mine, means it's in both our interests to stop fighting as soon
as possible. And for you to get a build to use in the Tyr area.
> I still don't want to attack you. I just want to minimze the threat you
> pose so that I can deal with other threats. This is why I wanted to see
> your fleet in Rumania. If you had your fleet in Rum and an army in Sev,
> you would be just as protected, and would pose less of a threat to me. I
> don't think Italy is going to be able to threaten Ank any time soon, with
> France coming his way.
I agree with all of this, but taking Rum with a fleet last year
simply wasn't possible. I should have built a fleet rather than
an army basically, but I realised that too late.
I am going to order A Rum S A Ser - Bul, in case you change your
mind. I hope you will but I also fear you may be right that Raine
will attack Gre with two supports. I wouldn't if I were him,
but he hasn't done what I would have done almost the entire game.
He's also very reluctant to tell me what he actually plans to
do so I definately can't assure you of anything except that
the support from Rum will be there.
If there's more to be said, you'll have to be quick, it's Friday
night and I'm off down the pub quite early tonight.
Adam.........
From - Fri Oct 26 19:56:57 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
Hello, are you attacking Italy? If so, whose decision was it? From what
I knew, Italy was not planning to move against you, until you wrote him
threatening messages. What was the purpose of this? Now Germany tells
me he is moving to Tyrolia to ensure that you are committed against
Italy. Who is in the driver's seat here?
Are you worried that Germany will be in too good a position if you have
to move three fleets against Italy and if Russia gets kicked out of Turkey?
You always send me nice press, but I get the feeling that you are working
against me behind the scenes.
Austria
From - Fri Oct 26 19:56:58 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> Did you read something in that press which gave you the impression
> I thought Germany moving south was aimed at Italy? From my understanding
> Germany is considering attacking you, Italy would be a second
> prize or bonus at best. I've been telling you this all phase.
Germany has told me that he is moving to Tyrolia in order to make sure
that France commits himself against Italy.
> I've also been pointing out that the FG situation, never mind the
> fact Raine decided to join your side of our battle rather than
> mine, means it's in both our interests to stop fighting as soon
> as possible. And for you to get a build to use in the Tyr area.
I agree. Once my security is ensured, I'm not going to pursue you. If
you don't leave Rum soon or put a fleet there, I will have to try to
evict you. With you in Rum, I have to keep units in Ser, Bud and Gal,
tying up these units when I'd rather use them for other things.
> I am going to order A Rum S A Ser - Bul, in case you change your
> mind. I hope you will but I also fear you may be right that Raine
> will attack Gre with two supports. I wouldn't if I were him,
> but he hasn't done what I would have done almost the entire game.
> He's also very reluctant to tell me what he actually plans to
> do so I definately can't assure you of anything except that
> the support from Rum will be there.
I'm sure he will surprise us both, as usual. I am not moving Ser-Bul, if
you're interested.
> If there's more to be said, you'll have to be quick, it's Friday
> night and I'm off down the pub quite early tonight.
Have fun. Me, I will be slaving away at my thesis. I have to turn it in
in a week and a half.
Austria
From - Fri Oct 26 19:56:59 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
I think it is inevitable that France and Italy will attack each other,
from what I can tell. France has been telling Italy that he would attack
him, after all, so Italy is likely to react to it.
You have said that you don't want to see a weak Russia, but that you want
to see a strong A-I alliance. So, what is there for me to do? What is
it you want me to do?
Austria
From - Fri Oct 26 19:57:02 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Germany has told me that he is moving to Tyrolia in order to make sure
> that France commits himself against Italy.
I guess that could be true. We'll both find out next spring.
> I'm sure he will surprise us both, as usual. I am not moving Ser-Bul, if
> you're interested.
I understand, it's a question of trust and you can't have any
for me at the moment. The support will be there if you change
your mind though.
> Have fun. Me, I will be slaving away at my thesis. I have to turn it in
> in a week and a half.
Youch, getting married and finishing your course and presumably
starting a new job/course shortly afterwards. Changes are ahoy!
Good luck.
Adam........
From - Fri Oct 26 19:57:04 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to
Germany in 'gutsy':
Steve,
I just received from Keith an analogue of the message he sent to you. He asked
me if I'm attacking Italy, and he claims you told him you will move to Tyl.
My reply to him is that I will attack either G or I next year as the situation
warrants.
Though this is disconcerting, I don't think it changes our plan any. Rather,
it reinforces the need to take action immediately. It would be nice to take AI
by surprise, but even if they're expecting it, I believe it's better to hit
them now when they're vulnerable than to second-guess ourselves and delay.
Rod
From - Fri Oct 26 19:57:09 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to
Austria in 'gutsy':
Keith,
> Hello, are you attacking Italy?
I plan to attack either Italy or Germany next year. The identity of the victim
depends on the situation. Do you have a preference?
> If so, whose decision was it?
The decision will be mine.
> Italy was not planning to move against you, until you wrote him
> threatening messages.
I did not write him threatening messages. I informed him that I was moving to
MAO, and I explained my reasons for doing so. He mistook it as an offense, and
replied that he will take prudent measures to defend himself as necessary.
> Now Germany tells me he is moving to Tyrolia to ensure that you are committed
against Italy.
That would be good for me whether I'm going against Italy or Germany, but I
doubt that he would risk pissing you off with a lone unit like that - unless
he thinks he can defuse the situation by telling you about it in advance.
> I get the feeling that you are working against me behind the scenes.
I am working with and against everyone. Isn't that how the game is played? ;-)
I think that you and I have a lot of opportunities to work together, but first
you need to get the Russian monkey off your back.
Rod
From - Fri Oct 26 19:57:10 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
I am getting more confused the more I talk to everyone. For example,
the latest exchange with France:
Austria: I get the feeling that you are working against me behind the scenes.
France: I am working with and against everyone. Isn't that how the game is
played? ;-) I think that you and I have a lot of opportunities to
work together, but first you need to get the Russian monkey off
your back.
What is going on here?
France also told me that he would attack either Germany or Italy,
depending on which opportunity presented itself. I had figured that he
was going to attack Italy, no matter what. Wasn't this your information
too? Is France really talking about attacking Germany, or was that just
for my benefit?
Austria
From - Fri Oct 26 19:57:15 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
>> Italy was not planning to move against you, until you wrote him
>> threatening messages.
> I did not write him threatening messages. I informed him that I was
> moving to MAO, and I explained my reasons for doing so. He mistook it as
> an offense, and replied that he will take prudent measures to defend
> himself as necessary.
Oh, Italy had told me that you had told him that by attacking Russia, he
had sealed his fate, and that now you would have to come attack him
(presumably unless he made up with Russia and attacked me instead).
>> Now Germany tells me he is moving to Tyrolia to ensure that you are
>> committed against Italy.
> That would be good for me whether I'm going against Italy or Germany,
> but I doubt that he would risk pissing you off with a lone unit like that
> - unless he thinks he can defuse the situation by telling you about it in
> advance.
Well he didn't volunteer the information. Russia told me Germany told
him he was moving south (which is what one would expect Germany to tell
Russia), so I asked Germany if he was moving to Tyrolia, and he responded
saying something like "if that's what it takes to get France to move
against Italy, then yes".
> > I get the feeling that you are working against me behind the scenes.
> I am working with and against everyone. Isn't that how the game is
> played? ;-) I think that you and I have a lot of opportunities to work
> together, but first you need to get the Russian monkey off your back.
That is one way to play, yes. Russia is dangerous to me right now only
if he is working with someone else (Italy for instance), so I am going to
try to make sure that doesn't happen. I'm hoping the situation will
resolve itself soon, however.
Austria
From - Fri Oct 26 19:57:19 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Perhaps France isn't so set against Italy as I thought. At least France
won't admit it to me. He probably wants to try to catch Italy by surprise.
You are thinking that France isn't going to move Mid-Wes now? If he
doesn't move now, he might never get the chance. And, if he does move
Mid-Wes this turn, what benefit will your army in Tyrolia have?
Remember, Tyrolia is Austrian territory and borders two Austrian supply
centers. It is one thing for me to move there, but quite another to be
occupied by a foreign invader. I really didn't like Italy's being there
either, but I didn't have much choice.
Austria
From - Fri Oct 26 19:57:24 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Thanks for the update. I thought you'd be watching your press today. :)
> He asked me if I'm attacking Italy, and he claims you told
> him you will move to Tyl.
When Keith asked me outright if I was ordering Mun - Tyl, I decided it
didn't make any sense to lie. I said something like "If that's what it
takes to get Rod into the Med, then yes." I hope that didn't mess up your
negotiations with him or Raine.
I know we lose surprise this turn, but it's not like we're involved in a big
stab here; we're just moving our forces in the obvious direction for an FG.
Next year, I might lie to them, but not this year. LOL
> I don't think it changes our plan any. Rather, it reinforces
> the need to take action immediately.
Yes. Fall moves like this are always a little tricky, but well worth it.
Remember when I wrote about the value of fall positional moves? I think
this is an excellent example.
> I believe it's better to hit them now when they're
> vulnerable than to second-guess ourselves and delay.
I agree; now is the time. Keith is in a panic, Adam is a bit desparate, and
Raine is way out of position.
If you hear more, please write, but otherwise, my orders are in. Thanks;
this looks good.
- Steve
From - Fri Oct 26 19:57:46 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I am getting more confused the more I talk to everyone.
That can happen, sometimes you have to know when to stop
listening I guess.
> Austria: I get the feeling that you are working against me behind the scenes.
>
> France: I am working with and against everyone. Isn't that how the game is
> played? ;-) I think that you and I have a lot of opportunities to
> work together, but first you need to get the Russian monkey off
> your back.
Monkey? How rude.
> What is going on here?
I guess he could be hoping to get you and I to stop fighting
so that you can defend against Germany. France probably won't
attack Germany but that doesn't mean he'd want Germany to
succeed. Or he could still be hoping that if you and I stop
fighting soon enough then I'd still have time to help him
against Germany which was his prefered plan.
> France also told me that he would attack either Germany or Italy,
> depending on which opportunity presented itself. I had figured that he
> was going to attack Italy, no matter what. Wasn't this your information
> too? Is France really talking about attacking Germany, or was that just
> for my benefit?
We were talking about it up until this phase basically. We
wanted to untangle me in the south so that I could help
against Germany in the north. Up until last year I was
hoping Raine would join in against you and free up a
few units for that battle. Up until this spring I was
hoping I could just quit the battle here and let you and
Raine fight instead, and now I think it's probably too late
whatever happens and Germany will get the first blow in
which means I'll have to defend rather than attack up
there.
I was under the impression that the plan now was to
attack Italy, but I suppose France might still have an
'unless Russia can help' exception which I've written
off.
Adam........
(You just caught me)
From - Fri Oct 26 19:58:09 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi,
Thanks for writing; I appreciate your letters
> He probably wants to try to catch Italy by surprise...(snip)...
> If he doesn't move now, he might never get the chance.
I agree to both; Italy is at least a two season stab for France. I think
Rod's a good enough a player to understand the situation.
> Remember, Tyrolia is Austrian territory and borders two Austrian
> supply centers. It is one thing for me to move there, but quite
> another to be occupied by a foreign invader.
I understand; if I were playing Austria, I would feel the same way. But you
must also remember that I was never asked about the Italian army in Tyr in
'01 nor the Austrian armies in Tyr/Boh in '02. I think you and Raine have
both established that Tyr is a border territory used to force the diplomatic
situation.
I know Mun - Tyr is a major concern for you, but it improves my big-picture
situation enough that I'm willing to risk the short-term fallout. I offer
my apoligies upfront.
Also, from the last letter:
> So, what is there for me to do? What is
> it you want me to do?
I'd like to see a 7-7 AI split with you taking Bul and Rum while Raine has
to work his way into Ankara. Next year, you (or I) can attack Venice with
the other's support.
That's it; write if you find the time. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Fri Oct 26 19:58:18 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> I'd like to see a 7-7 AI split with you taking Bul and Rum while Raine has
> to work his way into Ankara. Next year, you (or I) can attack Venice with
> the other's support.
Doesn't this conflict with your stance towards France? I would think you
would want France to attack Italy, but neither of us would want him to be
successful.
Austria
From - Fri Oct 26 19:58:30 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I would think you would want France to attack Italy,
> but neither of us would want him to be successful.
Sure I want him to be successful, but not too successful.
What do you envision an FI fight to look like? I see France taking Tunis;
Italy topping out at seven SCs; and you dominating the Balkans, turning on
Russia or Italy as you see fit. I see myself taking Edi and Sweden and then
turning on Russia or France as I see fit.
That seems like an excellent way for AG to proceed. Mun - Tyr is just the
diplomatic lever to make that happen; any military benefits are pure gravy.
The only puzzling part for me is the disposition of Greece. Adam and Raine
seem to thing you promised it to Raine, but that leaves you without a build
(or perhaps a disband). If there's anything I can say to either I or R, let
me know.
- Steve
From - Fri Oct 26 19:58:34 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to
Austria in 'gutsy':
Keith,
> Oh, Italy had told me that you had told him that by attacking Russia, he
> had sealed his fate, and that now you would have to come attack him
What I told Raine was that I intended to move against Germany (surely what he
wanted to hear, eh?), and that I would try to obtain Russia's assistance.
I never said that I have to attack him unless he does such-and-such.
(I prefer to take my victims by surprise, if at all possible.) :-)
Clearly, I have more work to do in my negotiations with Raine. Thanks for
letting me know what he's thinking.
> I asked Germany if he was moving to Tyrolia, and he responded
> saying something like "if that's what it takes to get France to move
> against Italy, then yes".
Ah, that makes sense. Of course I told Steve that I'm moving against Italy.
(I think you can easily discern the pattern here.) ;-)
It's good to know that he's taking me seriously.
> I'm hoping the situation will resolve itself soon, however.
I think it will. Russia is bound to get tired of his fruitless campaign
eventually and seek other opportunities.
Rod
From - Fri Oct 26 19:58:35 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Sure I want him to be successful, but not too successful.
I see, but taking Venice would probably make Italy collapse.
> What do you envision an FI fight to look like? I see France taking Tunis;
> Italy topping out at seven SCs; and you dominating the Balkans, turning on
> Russia or Italy as you see fit. I see myself taking Edi and Sweden and then
> turning on Russia or France as I see fit.
France can take Tunis unless Italy reacts now. I suspect that Italy will
not react in time if France moves quickly. I cannot attack Italy unless
you attack France first. Otherwise, France's fleets will dominate my
single fleet.
> That seems like an excellent way for AG to proceed. Mun - Tyr is just the
> diplomatic lever to make that happen; any military benefits are pure gravy.
I still don't like it.
> The only puzzling part for me is the disposition of Greece. Adam and Raine
> seem to thing you promised it to Raine, but that leaves you without a build
> (or perhaps a disband). If there's anything I can say to either I or R, let
> me know.
Russia and France were encouraging it, and Italy asked for Greece, but it
didn't make sense to me, and I'm going to make sure it doesn't happen. I
also don't anticipate gaining a supply center this year. I am not opposed
to letting Italy take Greece, but I want another supply center first. I
think all of this talk about Greece will evaporate after this turn,
anyway, when Italy will probably have better things to do.
Austria
From - Fri Oct 26 19:58:40 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
Thanks for writing. I know we haven't written much lately, but I appreciate
your letters nonetheless. I don't have a lot of time right now, but I'll
let you know what I can.
First off, you should know that Adam and I have agreed to a 2-2 split in
Scandanavia. The second thing you should know is that Adam and Eric are
still talking. The third thing you should know is that I cannot attack
Belgium this year, but might be willing to next year.
That's about it; I'm sorry I can't promise a French attack in '04, but I
still have a couple of centers to pick up. I hope you understand.
Also, Apu - Ven is fine with me. That might give us the chance to cooperate
in Trieste or defend against a French attack on the Piedmont.
Lastly, if you do get two centers, A Rom and F Nap are excellent builds.
That lets you protect Venice *and* Tunis.
Write if you can. Thanks.
- Steve
P.S. Tried the sauna yet? :)
From - Fri Oct 26 19:58:51 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> I said something like "If that's what it takes to get Rod into the Med, then yes."
Ah, that explains it: That's exactly what he told me you told him.
> I hope that didn't mess up your negotiations with him or Raine.
No problem - it just makes things "interesting". :-)
> Next year, I might lie to them, but not this year.
Is it really lying if they don't believe you anyway? ;-)
> Remember when I wrote about the value of fall positional moves?
Yes, I do. I'm eager to see how this one works out.
> Keith is in a panic, Adam is a bit desparate, and
> Raine is way out of position.
Just the way we like 'em! ;-)
Rod
From - Fri Oct 26 19:59:19 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
I have been exchanging a number of messages with France, and especially
Germany.
All indications from Germany point towards France moving Mid-Wes this
turn. Germany seems to have agreed to move Mun-Tyr in order to make this
happen. But, I see this move as threat towards me too. Germany wants
France to attack you (this is good for Germany), but he doesn't want
France to be too successful against you (otherwise France becomes too
powerful for Germany to handle).
France said that he never told you he would attack you, and that he
prefers to surprise his victims. I remember you were saying that he had
convinced you that he was attacking you.
Austria
From - Fri Oct 26 19:59:42 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
LOL. Yea, I think we're on the same page here. I'd write more but there's
no need. Good hunting. :)
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Fri Oct 26 20:00:04 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi,
I'm a bit pressed for time so I have to make this short. Sorry about that,
but please know that I value a strong Austria; your strength is a big part
of my success.
> I see, but taking Venice would probably make Italy collapse.
Sure, then let's hold Venice. I understand the value of a strong I against
F. I'll follow your lead next year; whatever you want to do is fine with
me.
> Otherwise, France's fleets will dominate my single fleet.
Yes, that's why I like an AI in this situation. However you and Raine
divide Turkey and the Balkans is fine with me. You and I both would like to
see Raine's fleets moving west. Our conflict doesn't start until Warsaw and
Moscow are up for grabs.
Also:
> I still don't like it.
I know. That's just a result of the FGR power structure; I hope you
understand.
I'll write more later, but I have a dinner obligation now. Thanks for
writing and I hope we work this out.
- Steve
From - Fri Oct 26 20:00:14 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> > I hope you liked my Ven-Apu.
>
> As long as you stay out of Pie, I'm not concerned about armies stationed in
> Ven or Apu.
I'll keep this in mind in future :-)
> > I am afraid of Mao-Wes, Eng-Mao and a fleet build in Mar.
>
> I understand your concern. I would be worried about it too. However, I
> don't think that's a good move for me. I would be vulnerable to
> Germany, and I'm sure you could mount a formidable defense before I got
> very
> far. I believe we still have the most
> to gain from leaving each other alone.
I agree. I will still prepare to welcome you :-) All the others tell me
that you are moving Wes. You _consider_ something else. I believe that you
have told your ally what you are going to do. So I don't need to know your
ally 'cause the rest or the board tell me that there will be Mao-Wes.
You have the chance to surprise _everyone_ by moving somewhere else :-)
> > Do you want to try to ease my fears? Do you dare to tell me
> > the future of Belgium?
>
> Steve has suggested that we trade Bel for Edi next year. I'd rather keep
> Bel for myself, so my plan is to build armies and defend it.
I woud love to see armies build instead of fleets by France.
In the rare case you decide to NOT attack me I have a vision where you
keep your alliance with Germany and attack him before he attacks you while
I do the same with Austria in east. Any comments?
Raine
From - Fri Oct 26 20:00:20 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
> Also, Apu - Ven is fine with me. That might give us the chance to cooperate
> in Trieste or defend against a French attack on the Piedmont.
Do you want to comment the rumour of Mun-Tyr?
> P.S. Tried the sauna yet? :)
What do you mean? This week? Traditional sauna day is Saturday but
usually people go to sauna more than once a week. We came from theatre and
it is too late to go to sauna now. It takes almost one hour to heat it.
Raine
From - Fri Oct 26 20:00:27 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> Also, Germany's official line to Russia is that Germany is going to
> attack me (Austria). I do not really believe this, but it is good
> propganda from Germany.
Adam told me about this too. I do not believe it either. Germany has
better options than to attack you.
> I need a firm committment from you that you will not attack me. We need
> to stick together here. If Germany helps Russia against me, something
> that I had not anticipated, then we both could be in trouble.
I don't attack you. What kind of commitment do you want? I have already
promised to not move to Greece.
> What do you think?
My moves are in. I have ordered in a way to try to keep both Bul and Con.
My 'story' to Russia is that I am afraid of AFG and I want to attack A to
prevent AFG. Russia does not believe it until he sees it. (BTW, did I
really sound fanatic when I wrote my fears to you :-). Anyway I have been
honest with Russia so far so he might buy my story.
Raine
From - Fri Oct 26 20:00:28 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> All indications from Germany point towards France moving Mid-Wes this
> turn. Germany seems to have agreed to move Mun-Tyr in order to make this
> happen. But, I see this move as threat towards me too. Germany wants
> France to attack you (this is good for Germany), but he doesn't want
> France to be too successful against you (otherwise France becomes too
> powerful for Germany to handle).
>
> France said that he never told you he would attack you, and that he
> prefers to surprise his victims. I remember you were saying that he had
> convinced you that he was attacking you.
Before last moves he made it clear that he will attack me if I won't
attack you. I didn't. He made it clear that he cannot attack Germany if he
doesn't get support from Russia. He will not get support from Russia if AI
is allied 'cause Russia is under pressure in south.
Adam tells me that you are afraid of my move against Greece (with two
supports). I am not going to do it. I am not insane. I _do_ believe that F
is coming towards me so I want to do everything to keep you on my side.
Raine
From - Fri Oct 26 20:00:29 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I don't attack you. What kind of commitment do you want? I have already
> promised to not move to Greece.
I just wanted to hear you say it one more time.
Don't get me wrong, I don't value Greece itself all that much, and I
could do without the fleet. I just want to make sure that you don't let
Russia have Con or Bul, that's all. This is the reason it is important
that I make sure that you don't take Greece.
I don't expect to get a build this year. Who knows, perhaps I will get
lucky if Russia does something really dumb.
Austria
From - Fri Oct 26 20:00:31 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> I just wanted to hear you say it one more time.
I am happy to be able to do that :-)
> Don't get me wrong, I don't value Greece itself all that much, and I
> could do without the fleet. I just want to make sure that you don't let
> Russia have Con or Bul, that's all. This is the reason it is important
> that I make sure that you don't take Greece.
I feel the same. Greece ain't that important to me neither. Same goes for
your fleet it is not needed to be destroyed it would help me in the future
if you could dispand it at some point but it is not essential.
> I don't expect to get a build this year. Who knows, perhaps I will get
> lucky if Russia does something really dumb.
I have tried to convince Russia to not attack Bul and to support himself
to Con. I _do_ believe he'll support himself to Con but I don't know about
the move to Bul.
You might get a build by Gal-Rum with 2 supports. Ser s Gre is a waste.
Raine
From - Sat Oct 27 08:55:11 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1904M Sat Oct 27 2001 20:00:00 +1300
Movement results for Fall of 1904. (gutsy.014)
Austria: Army Serbia SUPPORT Army Budapest -> Rumania.
Austria: Army Galicia -> Ukraine. (*bounce*)
Austria: Fleet Greece SUPPORT Italian Fleet Bulgaria. (*void*)
Austria: Army Albania -> Trieste.
Austria: Army Budapest -> Rumania.
England: Army Edinburgh HOLD. (*dislodged*)
England: Fleet St Petersburg (north coast) SUPPORT Fleet Sweden -> Norway. (*dislodged*)
England: Fleet Sweden -> Norway.
France: Army Gascony HOLD.
France: Army Wales -> Liverpool.
France: Fleet English Channel -> Mid-Atlantic Ocean.
France: Army London HOLD.
France: Fleet Irish Sea SUPPORT Army Wales -> Liverpool.
France: Fleet Mid-Atlantic Ocean -> Western Mediterranean.
Germany: Army Yorkshire -> Edinburgh.
Germany: Army Holland -> Kiel.
Germany: Fleet Skagerrak -> Sweden.
Germany: Army Munich -> Tyrolia.
Germany: Fleet North Sea SUPPORT Army Yorkshire -> Edinburgh.
Germany: Fleet Denmark SUPPORT Fleet Skagerrak -> Sweden.
Italy: Army Constantinople -> Smyrna. (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Apulia -> Venice.
Italy: Fleet Bulgaria (south coast) -> Constantinople. (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Aegean Sea SUPPORT Fleet Bulgaria (south coast) -> Constantinople.
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea -> Tunis.
Russia: Army Ukraine SUPPORT Army Rumania. (*cut*)
Russia: Fleet Ankara SUPPORT Fleet Black Sea -> Constantinople.
Russia: Fleet Norway -> St Petersburg (north coast).
Russia: Fleet Black Sea -> Constantinople. (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Warsaw -> Galicia. (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Moscow SUPPORT Fleet Norway -> St Petersburg (north coast).
Russia: Army Rumania SUPPORT Austrian Army Serbia -> Bulgaria. (*void, dislodged*)
Turkey: Army Syria -> Smyrna. (*bounce*)
The following units were dislodged:
The English Army in Edinburgh can retreat to Clyde.
The English Fleet in St Petersburg (north coast) can retreat to Barents Sea.
The Russian Army in Rumania can retreat to Sevastopol.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Retreats for Fall of 1904.
The deadline for orders will be Tue Oct 30 2001 12:13:23 +1300.
From - Sat Oct 27 08:55:17 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
It looks like you and I both are in superb positions. Too bad Adam lost Rum
and Raine got beleaguered in Con. That kind of stunk. I imagine Keith will
build A Vie and Raine will build A Rom, F Nap. That's pretty good, I guess.
Any chance you can convince Adam to disband Moscow?
I'll be away from the keyboard tomorrow, but will write more on Sunday.
Have a good weekend.
- Steve
From - Sat Oct 27 08:55:18 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
> Traditional sauna day is Saturday.
I didn't realize that; what does the sauna look like? In the states, a
sauna is usually a fairly small room with wooden benches along the wall and
an enclosure of hot rocks in the center. I forget what the Swedish word
was.. bastu(sp?). Are they any cultural differences between the two? Just
curious. I know this is OT so if you want to write more about the game and
less about sauna, I understand.
Regarding Mun - Tyr, I felt it was the best way for me to get Rod to move
his fleets away from me. I didn't mean it as an anti-Italian move nor did I
mean it as an anti-Austrian move; I just thought it was the best move for me
at the time. I also hope it allows me to be more active in AIR
negotiations. I hope that makes sense.
Let's talk more when you can. I'll be away this weekend, but I'll be back
at the keyboard Sunday night.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Sat Oct 27 18:25:32 2001
Broadcast message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia in 'gutsy':
Yipes. Ouch.
From - Sat Oct 27 18:25:34 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Everything worked as predicted. I am surprised to have gotten Rumania,
though. I certainly wouldn't have moved like that as Russia.
Have fun building. Even though Russia loses three centers, he still will
have five units left. If we can get him to disband at least one of his
southern fleets, then you can hold Turkey with one unit, or have a good
chance of taking Ankara next year. Do you think you will be wanting to
move your fleet in the Aegean Sea west?
We should probably kick Germany out of Tyrolia in the Spring, what do you
think? I can build in Vienna. If so I probably won't be able to hold
Rumania unless Russia disbands his F Bla.
It will be interesting to see what France does. Will he come at you with
virtually no chance of success? He will probably try to convince you to
attack me, coming up with some grand scheme about his stabbing Germany,
etc. Also, what will Germany do? He can occupy himself by taking Norway
for this year.
Austria
From - Sat Oct 27 18:25:35 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hmm... no big surprises there, other than my taking Rumania. What are
you going to do with your army in Tyrolia now?
Austria
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:06 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> It looks like you and I both are in superb positions.
Indeed. Three builds for AI is not ideal, but we are still much better
off than if we had waited for them to come after us.
> Too bad Adam lost Rum and Raine got beleaguered in Con. That kind of stunk.
Yeah, Adam is hurting - but at least that gives you the opportunity to
dictate terms. ;-)
> I imagine ... Raine will build A Rom, F Nap.
Or two fleets, depending on his priorities.
> Any chance you can convince Adam to disband Moscow?
I'll suggest to him that his southern units are the most important, but
I don't know how he'd feel about leaving his northern border totally
exposed. (He must disband *two*, which is rough.)
Rod
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:07 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
Looks like you got screwed - again! At least this will galvanize
Germany against AI - Steve told me he doesn't want to see anyone in the
south/east getting too powerful.
It will be difficult for you to decide which units to disband. If AI
are the enemy then you'll need War/Ukr/Sev/Bla/Ank, but that leaves you
very vulnerable in the north. Still, that might be better than
spreading yourself too thin and being vulnerable everywhere.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:09 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> I have a vision where you
> keep your alliance with Germany and attack him before he attacks you while
> I do the same with Austria in east. Any comments?
Yes. Why didn't you share this vision with me before? My preference
was that you and I attack GA, but I got the impression that you weren't
willing to turn on Austria. I wasn't able to get any assistance for
attacking Germany, so I decided that moving into the Med would be
easier. It could be that I was wrong - I anticipate that your defenses
will be quite formidable. But at least Steve is willing to assist me
with his army in Tyl - which is more help than I was offered for a
campaign against Germany.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:13 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Master in 'gutsy':
===***===***===***===
Gutsy - Germany - EOY 1904
Wow...1904 went by fairly quickly. My main focus during that time was
solidifying my partnership with Rod and establishing my support for Adam in
the north. My basic plan was to keep the East un-resolved while eliminating
Brent and allowing Adam Nwy/Stp to support his effort against AI.
In the beginning of the year, I thought discord between A and I was best for
me, but I eventually decided that a solidified AI was not such a bad thing
because Raine couldn't exactly do to much to hurt me (knock on wood). And,
it encouraged an FI fight in the med (knock on more wood). And and, it
might reduce the IR conflict in Turkey (knock on even more wood).
When Rod suggested mun-tyr, I initially balked but managed to convince
myself of the advantages fairly quickly. I'm like that, present an idea
without much of an argument and if it's good for me, I'll fall right in
line. :)
As I saw it, Rod and I were talking more than Raine and Keith and Rod was
the one who had to commit first (the rest of us, except Adam, still had
centers to take). So I thought I could be fairly honest with Raine and
Keith when asked about Tyrolia. As it turned out, both ask and I simply
said "Yep, I'm moving there"; no need to lie. Maybe next year, but not this
year.
As for Russia, I figured he needed any support he got so it was unlikely
that he would mount any sort of attack on me. Taking the northern centers
hostage seemed like the best thing to do. When Adam lost Rumanian, I was
even more sure I had made the right choice.
The builds are key, but I don't see any way anyone can get the jump on me
positionally. If I can keep up the diplomatic line without succumbing to
temptation against F or R, I should do okay. The real gains are still
downstream.
Nothing more right now. Kind of busy.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:14 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
A little busy, but here's a short note.
> Yeah, Adam is hurting - but at least that gives you the
> opportunity to dictate terms. ;-)
Yep, I think I'd like to see Adam with F Stp (soon to be Nwy), A War, A Ukr,
A Sev, and F Ank. That position just about ensures neither Raine nor Keith
will get another center except through the other.
> Or two fleets, depending on his priorities.
I think that's unlikely. I'll do my best to encourage A Rom and F Nap. A
Vie is a given, though, so I expect an attack on Tyrolia next year. What do
you think we should do with A Gas, A Tyr, and A Mun?
I'll write more soon, but tomorrow's going to be a busy day; gotta sleep
when I can. :)
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:16 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1904R Tue Oct 30 2001 12:13:23 +1300
Retreat orders for Fall of 1904. (gutsy.015)
England: Army Edinburgh -> Clyde.
England: Fleet St Petersburg (north coast) -> Barents Sea.
Russia: Army Rumania -> Sevastopol.
Ownership of supply centers:
Austria: Budapest, Greece, Rumania, Serbia, Trieste, Vienna.
England: Norway.
France: Belgium, Brest, Liverpool, London, Marseilles, Paris, Portugal,
Spain.
Germany: Berlin, Denmark, Edinburgh, Holland, Kiel, Munich, Sweden.
Italy: Bulgaria, Constantinople, Naples, Rome, Smyrna, Tunis, Venice.
Russia: Ankara, Moscow, Sevastopol, St Petersburg, Warsaw.
Austria: 6 Supply centers, 5 Units: Builds 1 unit.
England: 1 Supply center, 3 Units: Removes 2 units.
France: 8 Supply centers, 6 Units: Builds 2 units.
Germany: 7 Supply centers, 6 Units: Builds 1 unit.
Italy: 7 Supply centers, 5 Units: Builds 2 units.
Russia: 5 Supply centers, 7 Units: Removes 2 units.
Turkey: 0 Supply centers, 1 Unit: Removes 1 unit.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Adjustments for Winter of 1904.
The deadline for orders will be Tue Oct 30 2001 15:32:01 +1300.
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:18 2001
Broadcast message [from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France]
in 'gutsy':
Discussion Topic for the Observers:
Was Eric the first eliminated because he has the highest JDPR, or
because he 'accidentally' moved to Armenia the first turn?
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:20 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi, what are you going to do now? I can understand if you are mad at me
for attacking Rumania.
I am still serious about not wanting to advance north. Let me know what
you're thinking, and perhaps we can work something out. It looks like
Germany has the luxury of waiting another year before he decides to attack
you or France. He can occupy himself by taking Norway, or something.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:21 2001
Broadcast message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey in 'gutsy':
Turkish EoG
> Broadcast message in 'gutsy':
>
> Discussion Topic for the Observers:
>
> Was Eric the first eliminated because he has the highest JDPR, or
> because he 'accidentally' moved to Armenia the first turn?
Yes. Given the level of (or should I say lack of) communication from the
other Eastern Powers, I have to conclude that I was targeted due to my JDPR
(and the generally accepted fact that Turkey becomes extremely difficult to
eliminate once it grows beyond six Centers). I, also, made the mistake of
assuming that Raine could be trusted to see the advantages of an alliance
with two non-adjacent Powers, (England and Turkey), and an early attack on
France. I'm still not sure what I could have said or done differently to
make him see the advantages it would have given us. The "accidental" move
to Armenia, was, of course, not an accident, but the move to Bla was. I
favor the Turkish Hedgehog as an opening, since it keeps Russia honest while
short-circuiting the Lepanto. Ah well, losses happen.
Eric.
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:22 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Master in 'gutsy':
Austria's End-of-Year statement for 1904
This was a difficult year, but it worked out in the end.
With the prospect of getting two builds, Italy stayed with me in the
Spring against Russia. I had hoped to finish the year with one build,
but I wasn't expecting it to be Rumania.
Italy has been involved with most of the lying to Russia, I think, and
perhaps this is what has fooled Russia into making poor moves, I don't
know. Italy seems to have been telling Russia that he would attack me,
but he never does, of course. I don't know how many times Russia has
believed this.
This year began some intense contact with Germany and France. I had
never really talked to France much before. France was apparently
counting on Italy to attack me. This would weaken Italy and strengthen
Russia, both good for France. After Italy did not attack Greece in the
Spring, like France seems to have suspected, France seems to have sent
Italy some very powerful messages. Italy panicked and almost decided to
withdraw from Russia, I think, to rush to defend himself from France. He
wanted to make sure that he got two builds, and he was willing to disband
one of his units from the Russian front to do so. This would have been a
disaster for me.
So, I spend the season trying to convince Italy not to listen to France,
that Italy would be better off sticking with me, that he could defend
against France well if he moved Ion-Tun (and only if he moved Ion-Tun)
because France would likely move Mid-Wes. I had tried to convince Italy
to move Ion-Tun earlier so he could bounce Mid-Wes, but he wouldn't go
for it. I also convinced Italy that he could get two builds without
withdrawing from Russia.
Germany is in a very good position here. He is apparently allies with
both France and Russia. This can't last too long. He is telling Russia
that he will attack me, but this does not seem very likely or even
possible. Germany can simply take Norway in the coming year, and wait to
decide who to attack. France may be engaged against Italy, and he thinks
Russia may be defending against me.
Now, my job for the future is to keep France and Italy fighting, and to
cause Russia to defend against Germany or even to attack Germany. I have
had some dialogue with Russia, so the latter may be possible. At this
point Russia seems to want to disentangle himself from the South to focus
on the North. His disbands will be crucial.
I hope that Russia is not too upset with me. I gave him the impression
that I was going to support myself against and Italian attack and that I
would not attack him in Rumania right now, preferring instead that he
move a fleet there. In reality I was fairly certain that Italy would not
attack me, and I felt it important to take Rumania.
It may be a trick to keep France and Italy fighting. Both Germany and I
want to see it continue, but neither of us wants either country to gain
an advantage. A continued war between France and Italy ties up their
units, taking the pressure off us. Germany seems like he will be
supporting France against Italy with his unit in Tyrolia. I can't really
support Italy against France, but I can help with Germany.
There is a danger that France and Italy realize they are in a
non-productive stalemate against each other and decide to turn themselves
around. France can apparently be very persuasive, so I need to be on the
lookout for this. I need to position my forces such that I can do some
damage quickly to Italy if necessary. I need to disengage from Russia
for now. Russia still has five units, and he will be difficult to
attack. I don't have enough units to take Warsaw and Moscow right now.
I would need Bulgaria and Sevastopol first.
The direction of the game rests heavily on what Germany does and when.
Whether Germany attacks France or Russia, though, I think I stand to gain
the most by working with Russia, or at least appearing to work with
Russia. He seems to be somewhat gullible, so I think I would be able to
position my units in key positions to stab him if necessary.
keith
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:27 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I think I owe you an explantation and apologies. I felt that I could not
tell you what was coming. I remember that I recommended you to support
Rumania with two units.
France moved excatly like I feared :-( I needed builds desperately. Keith
was adamant that Greece is to be his or he will join France in killing me.
I felt like I got no choise. I don't know if I'll last long 'cause FG
seems to be co-operating well. It is possible that you will get a chance
to say that you were right in the first place. It is still possible that
I'll be crushed between AFG.
>From now on I need to concentrate on France. I am not able to do anything
if you want to harash me. I do understand your feelings if you decide to
attack me. I might do that if I were you. But you have other choises as
well. I mean, that German army in Tyrolia is a pain to me _and_ to Austria
it is possible that Austria will build to Vie. That would give you the
opportunity to take Rumania back. In the end the choise is yours and I do
understand if you decide to give me a kind of payback.
If you think that I am worth of allying with then you should consider
dispanding Ankara and Black Sea. If you think I am arrogant then you just
dispand Moscow and Stp.
In case you realize that I have no need to be in bad terms with you, you
should think about taking either Gal or Rum as a target in spring. I
understand if you do not want to make plans with me in that case I'll just
watch your next moves and try to figure out your intentions.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:29 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
I really would like you to build to Vienna. Then we could force Steve from
Tyrolia if we want to. The willingness depends of the builds.
> Have fun building. Even though Russia loses three centers, he still will
> have five units left. If we can get him to disband at least one of his
> southern fleets, then you can hold Turkey with one unit, or have a good
> chance of taking Ankara next year. Do you think you will be wanting to
> move your fleet in the Aegean Sea west?
It is too early to say before the builds but it is likely. Another thing I
had in mind is to chance Bul/Gre. Let's talk of that possibility after the
builds.
> We should probably kick Germany out of Tyrolia in the Spring, what do you
> think? I can build in Vienna. If so I probably won't be able to hold
> Rumania unless Russia disbands his F Bla.
I am trying to get Adam to remove both fleets from south. I might be
wasting my time but I'll try. Vienna is what I would prefer. We need to
talk with Steve of Tyrolia. France tells me that Tyrolia will help him
against me. I am wondering if I should build one army and one fleet.
> It will be interesting to see what France does. Will he come at you with
> virtually no chance of success? He will probably try to convince you to
> attack me, coming up with some grand scheme about his stabbing Germany,
> etc. Also, what will Germany do? He can occupy himself by taking Norway
> for this year.
France tells me that he'll attack me with German help :-(
I would love to see AGI triple now. GI against F and AI against R. I would
be a minor help in both fronts. Even if we could agree of this with Steve
I ask you to build to Vienna. I won't trust Steve to be on our side until
I see his build.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:32 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Master in 'gutsy':
END OF YEAR STATEMENT.
----------------------
Wow, I got really screwed this year.
I realized, probably too late, that Italy wasn't going to move
into Austria at all. I tried to get Austria to make peace with
me - partly so I could help France in Germany next year but
mostly so Austria would attack Italy and I could get back
at Raine for not helping me out.
But it turns out that Raine was more interested in screwing me
to get the builds to fight France than I'd hoped, and I fell
for some fairly good lies from Austria who was saying he
couldn't trust Italy and would be supporting all over the
place.
Essentially Raine was angry with me for taking Con, I knew
that move was risky but I also knew that without help
in Austria I was in some desperate trouble anyway. I still
think it would have been in Raine's best interests to leave
Eric alone for a while and go after Austria instead. Oh
well, maybe he was afraid of Eric's JDPR as has been suggested
in broadcast now Eric's dead.
I expected a disband this year, basically A Alb, but three
disbands is insane. I knew I was out of position, this is
pretty nasty.
Now I have to try and make sure I'm in a posision to help
Germany attack Austria. It seems that Steve fears Keith more
than me and thinks he can pick me off any time. He's probably
right, especially now. If I can be in a position where I can
do Steve some good in Austria then hopefully I can get
Steve to follow through and give me Norway and also get
a gain or two from Austria, and Turkey.
Looks like France and Germany are my only allies now,
at least until Keith notices that Germany is going to
attack him.
If I'm wrong about Steve's intentions then I'm pretty
well doomed anyway. Sometimes, you have to assume you're
right about something because if you're not right then
you're dead anyway.
Adam................
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:33 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
When I moved to Piedmont which is Italian soil, I retreated when I noticed
you did not like my move there. You said your move to Mao was like my move
to Pie. Well, you did not retreat you moved ahead. That makes you the
aggressor. Maybe that does not bother you but it keeps my conscience clear
and I can tell my people that this is the fight against evil people :-)
> Yes. Why didn't you share this vision with me before? My preference
> was that you and I attack GA, but I got the impression that you weren't
> willing to turn on Austria.
Think of my position, please. Then think of my position if you weren't on
Wes now. Where would I go? Turkey is gone and Russia is not too strong. I
would attack Austria for sure. You would have attacked Germany 'cause you
would be so far away from me. NOW the situation is different. It would be
foolish for me to attack Austria. I will concentrate on defence. The more
time it takes for you to get my centers the more time Germany has to take
Norway and Saint Pete's. Then we can try to talk Steve to go to direction
we want.
> I wasn't able to get any assistance for
> attacking Germany, so I decided that moving into the Med would be
> easier. It could be that I was wrong - I anticipate that your defenses
> will be quite formidable. But at least Steve is willing to assist me
> with his army in Tyl - which is more help than I was offered for a
> campaign against Germany.
Let's assume that you would not have moved to Wes. I would attack Austria
and that means Russia would have his share of Austrian centers and that
means stronger Russia to fight against Germany with you.
Let's face it I am still not a threat to you. No matter what I build I can
ONLY defend against you. I am sure you realize this. Now you have the
power to make the decision how this game is going to develope. By
retreating from Wes (and by building properly) you can have a good ally in
Italy. I am sure I could get Adam on my side to attack Austria. You can of
course continue to advance to Med but I wonder if it is worth it.
By building properly you have a good chance to overrun Germany while you
would have a peaceful border with me.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:40 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> Yep, I think I'd like to see Adam with F Stp (soon to be Nwy), A War, A Ukr,
> A Sev, and F Ank.
Retaining F Bla gives him a lot more leverage against AI - but then he'd have
to remove F StP, leaving you to hunt down the English remnant on your own.
But then, you'd get all the spoils too. ;-)
> What do you think we should do with A Gas, A Tyr, and A Mun?
Maybe Gas-Mar, Tyr S Mun-Boh, Kie-Ber, and Tyr retreats to Pie ?? Worst case is
if AI enter Boh and Tyr in the Spring, forcing you to order Ber S Mun in the Fall
- but at least this would let Russia into Gal.
If you think it's necessary, I could order Par-Bur (though I have not yet
decided between B A Par and B A Bre) for support of Mun (allowing Ber-Sil in
the Fall), but I would rather maintain the DMZ in Bur (and do the best we can
with our other units) than make you uncomfortable.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:41 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> You said your move to Mao was like my move to Pie.
I think the move to Pie was more aggressive, because it's adjacent to my home
center Mar, whereas MAO does not border any Italian territory.
> I can tell my people that this is the fight against evil people :-)
:-)
> I would attack Austria for sure.
I would like to believe that, but both the moves and the press over the last
year or two indicated to me that you would not attack Austria.
> I would attack Austria
> and that means Russia would have his share of Austrian centers and that
> means stronger Russia to fight against Germany with you.
I was ready to make a move *now*, and I did not want to wait to see whether this
would really happen. If Russia had been able to help me against G last year then
I would've gone that way - but when I was ready to make an attack, Germany was the
only one offering assistance.
> I am sure I could get Adam on my side to attack Austria.
I already know that Adam wants to attack Austria. I'm just not convinced that
you would help him. He told me that you and he made arrangements the past two
seasons, and you broke the deal each time - in favor of Austria. What was I
supposed to infer from that?
I agree that Germany is a threat. Hopefully someone will help me keep him in line.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:44 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> I think the move to Pie was more aggressive, because it's adjacent to my
> home center Mar, whereas MAO does not border any Italian territory.
It certainly was non-aggressive move when I moved away from Pie.
> I would like to believe that, but both the moves and the press over the
> last year or two indicated to me that you would not attack Austria.
Timing wasn't right :-) Think about it Turkey is gone and I have units in
homeland and in Turkey i.e. nicely around Austria. Would I make a long
trip to Iberia? Especially when you have been the good guy so far.
> I was ready to make a move *now*, and I did not want to wait to see whether
> this would really happen. If Russia had been able to help me against G
> last year then I would've gone that way - but when I was ready to make
> an attack, Germany was the only one
> offering assistance.
What was the hurry? West was clearly solving faster than east. My
apologies for not offering the assistance.
> I already know that Adam wants to attack Austria. I'm just not convinced
> that you would help him. He told me that you and he made arrangements
> the past two seasons, and you broke the deal each time - in favor of
> Austria. What was I supposed to infer
> from that?
At the moment I cannot do anything against Austria untill I see some
goodwill from your direction. I did have an arrangement with Adam in past
and it was Adam who broke it. After that I thought it is better to not
make any deals with him.
> I agree that Germany is a threat. Hopefully someone will help me keep him
> in line.
I offer assistance :-) How can I help you?
Raine
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:45 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
I'll tell you about saunas when our position is less tense.
> Regarding Mun - Tyr, I felt it was the best way for me to get Rod to move
> his fleets away from me. I didn't mean it as an anti-Italian move nor did I
> mean it as an anti-Austrian move; I just thought it was the best move for me
> at the time. I also hope it allows me to be more active in AIR
> negotiations. I hope that makes sense.
The question is what are you going to do in Tyrolia? Rod tells me that you
are helping him against me. Wow, that is something. You have a good
opportinity to go against Rod. Maybe you should first take Norway and
Saint Pete's but. That is a good plan BUT I wonder how your army in
Tyrolia fits that plan? It has give Rod the guts to to Med. Now that Rod
made his move maybe it is time to go back to Mun. What do you say?
I thought you understood that I have been helping you by taking centers
from Russia. The move to Tyrolia was Ok if you move back immediately. I
see your point why you moved there and I see no point to not move back.
If it turns out that Austria builds to Vie (due to your move to Tyr) and
loses Rum (due to your move to Tyr) it means one more center to Russia.
If I start to talk to you and Keith at the same time are you going to be
silent or would you like the idea?
Raine
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:47 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I really would like you to build to Vienna. Then we could force Steve from
> Tyrolia if we want to. The willingness depends of the builds.
Okay, done.
> I am trying to get Adam to remove both fleets from south. I might be
> wasting my time but I'll try. Vienna is what I would prefer. We need to
> talk with Steve of Tyrolia. France tells me that Tyrolia will help him
> against me. I am wondering if I should build one army and one fleet.
You will need three fleets against France, but an army build in Rome
could be good if you moved Nap-Tys, Aeg-Ion in the Spring. Is this what
you were thinking? If you have an extra army, then I won't have to keep
too many armies camped around Venice.
> I would love to see AGI triple now. GI against F and AI against R. I would
> be a minor help in both fronts. Even if we could agree of this with Steve
> I ask you to build to Vienna. I won't trust Steve to be on our side until
> I see his build.
He will have to build A Mun, don't you think? Otherwise, I might take
Munich if I wanted.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:49 2001
Broadcast message [from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France]
in 'gutsy':
> Given the level of (or should I say lack of) communication from the
> other Eastern Powers, I have to conclude that I was targeted due to my JDPR
Perhaps it was the communication that was the problem, and not the JDPR.
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:50 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Have you talked with Adam about his removals? I mean, I am not sure of
them. He might remove oddly if he thinks he has been treated in a wrong
way by someone.
> You will need three fleets against France, but an army build in Rome
> could be good if you moved Nap-Tys, Aeg-Ion in the Spring. Is this what
> you were thinking? If you have an extra army, then I won't have to keep
> too many armies camped around Venice.
This is one option. I have to rely on you a lot no matter what I do.
> > I would love to see AGI triple now. GI against F and AI against R. I would
> > be a minor help in both fronts. Even if we could agree of this with Steve
> > I ask you to build to Vienna. I won't trust Steve to be on our side until
> > I see his build.
>
> He will have to build A Mun, don't you think? Otherwise, I might take
> Munich if I wanted.
That is what I would build as Steve. Let's think of the continuation after
the builds in case of builds A MUN, A ROM, A VIE, F MAR, F NAP:
A Ven S Tri-Tyr (or Vie-Tyr if you prefer)
Vie S Tri-Tyr (or Tri S Vie-Tyr if you prefer)
Tri-Tyr
Gal-Boh no other place to retreat than Pie if succeeds you'll take Mun
you might lose Rum depending on Russian removals but FG is the
threat at the moment
Dependig in Russian removals we might have a chance to change Bul/Gre, it
would ease my fears of AFG:
Aeg-Ion
Gre-Bul(sc)
Bul(sc)-Aeg
or
Aeg-Ion
Gre-Aeg
Bul-Gre
but this is highly speculative. We need to know the Russian removals
first.
Did you sent the broadcast that just arrived?
Raine
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:51 2001
Broadcast message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey in 'gutsy':
> > Given the level of (or should I say lack of) communication from the
> > other Eastern Powers, I have to conclude that I was targeted due to > my
>JDPR
>Perhaps it was the communication that was the problem,
>and not the JDPR.
Are you implying that I sent too much press? 8-)
Eric.
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:52 2001
Broadcast message [from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France]
in 'gutsy':
> Are you implying that I sent too much press? 8-)
I'm implying that your most communicative neighbor was the one
player that was put off by your opening - hence the original
question.
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:54 2001
Broadcast message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy in 'gutsy':
C'mon, we are playing the game called gutsy and you are sending grey
broadcasts :-)
> > Given the level of (or should I say lack of) communication from the
> > other Eastern Powers, I have to conclude that I was targeted due to my JDPR
>
> Perhaps it was the communication that was the problem, and not the JDPR.
Perhaps it was the YARS :-)
Seriously, your JDPR wasn't a factor. Of course I can speak only for
myself.
Eric, I want to thank you in public for correcting my language. I will
miss those patient corrections you made.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:55 2001
Broadcast message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey in 'gutsy':
>Broadcast message from Italy in 'gutsy':
>
>
>Perhaps it was the YARS :-)
Yes! That's it! You all ganged up on me because
I'm the YARS Maintainer, and I haven't combined your
addresses, yet! ;^} Well, I'll teach you! Until
you let me win a game, I'll NEVER combine your
addresses, and I won't update the database so this
game will never appear as a loss for me, or the 3-way
draw it's going to end up being. So there!
8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) ;^} ;-) :) 8-) 8-) 8-)
Eric.
From - Tue Oct 30 17:58:57 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Have you talked with Adam about his removals? I mean, I am not sure of
> them. He might remove oddly if he thinks he has been treated in a wrong
> way by someone.
I have sent him a message trying to smooth things over, but I have not
heard from him. His primary goal was to disengage in the South so that
he could concentrate on defending against Germany. I've told him that I
will not attack him further, and that we could even work together against
Germany if he wants.
> That is what I would build as Steve. Let's think of the continuation after
> the builds in case of builds A MUN, A ROM, A VIE, F MAR, F NAP:
>
> A Ven S Tri-Tyr (or Vie-Tyr if you prefer)
> Vie S Tri-Tyr (or Tri S Vie-Tyr if you prefer)
> Tri-Tyr
> Gal-Boh no other place to retreat than Pie if succeeds you'll take Mun
> you might lose Rum depending on Russian removals but FG is the
> threat at the moment
Yes, I could do that. I prefer of course not to lose Rum. I would love
for Russia to disband F Bla.
> Dependig in Russian removals we might have a chance to change Bul/Gre, it
> would ease my fears of AFG:
> Aeg-Ion
> Gre-Bul(sc)
> Bul(sc)-Aeg
> or
> Aeg-Ion
> Gre-Aeg
> Bul-Gre
>
> but this is highly speculative. We need to know the Russian removals
> first.
That would be fine with me.
> Did you sent the broadcast that just arrived?
No.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:00 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Hi, what are you going to do now? I can understand if you are mad at me
> for attacking Rumania.
Indeed, it's going to be another akward year. My main hope
is that you'll realize what Germany is doing when he moves
on Vie or Tri this spring. Maybe that will be enough to
convince you that peace between us has been my aim for
some time.
> I am still serious about not wanting to advance north. Let me know what
> you're thinking, and perhaps we can work something out. It looks like
> Germany has the luxury of waiting another year before he decides to attack
> you or France. He can occupy himself by taking Norway, or something.
Well, last time he talked to me he was still promising me Norway,
but he hasn't really said anything for a while. I'm not sure
he'll bother anymore, but we'll see.
In the meantime, if I take Rum back with F Bla in such a way
that you get to have Bla back, would that go some way to
making peace between us? Clearly I can't do anything that
requires any trust at all now, but UKR and SEV supporting
Bla into Rum while War cut's Gal's support would force
you to retreat it. You can use Gre and Ser to support it
into Bul.
Does that sound like something we could do? Can we get Gal
DMZed this year too do you think? You could do with using it
to cover Vie this year I'd imagine.
Adam...........
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:01 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> Looks like you got screwed - again!
Indeed, fell into a fairly well coordinated lie campaign
by Italy and Austria. That's working quite a lot more
closely with Raine than ether Eric or I thought possible.
He just never accepts any proposals other than his own
usually. The ideas must have come from him I think.
That said, it's usually quite hard to coordinate anything
with Keith too, he just doens't write frequently enough
to get a great deal discussed.
Tricky.
> At least this will galvanize Germany against AI - Steve told
> me he doesn't want to see anyone in the south/east getting too powerful.
That sounds good. I was a little worried that he would take it
as a sign that I'm not longer a big enough player to need
to court my help and that he'd turn on me instead. I guess
Mun - Tyr commited him to some extent, though Keith
remains convinced that A Tyr is there to attack Ven,
even though that's impossible for the spring at least!
> It will be difficult for you to decide which units to disband. If AI
> are the enemy then you'll need War/Ukr/Sev/Bla/Ank, but that leaves you
> very vulnerable in the north. Still, that might be better than
> spreading yourself too thin and being vulnerable everywhere.
I'm going to keep StP because there's still some chance Steve
will keep his word and support it into Norway, though I guess
that will have to happen in the fall. I might be able to convince
Brent to support me in during the fall if Steve decides to
dislodge him in the spring too.
A Mos has to be one of the two to go of course, so it leaves
a choice between Ukr and Bla. F Bla might be the best bet,
A Ank is pretty safe for a short while at least, but if
I do disband F Bla it will make peace with Austria harder
since an army in Rum was his problem with peace the whole
of last year.
Oh well, if Steve goes in hard on Austia then peace with
him won't be so important, I can just fight him instead
and pick up gains once I've (finally) got some help.
Raine say's he's going to concentrate on fighting you,
but he's lied a little to much and too hard without
reason for me to see much point in believing that.
Adam.........
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:03 2001
Broadcast message [from pre at dalliance.net as Russia] in 'gutsy':
> or the 3-way draw it's going to end up being.
A prediction! Any guesses as to which three powers at this
point?
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:05 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I think I owe you an explantation and apologies. I felt that I could not
> tell you what was coming. I remember that I recommended you to support
> Rumania with two units.
Obviously you couldn't tell me, I'm quite impressed at how
well the lies were coordinated between you and Kieth. Either
blind luck or you've both improved your communication some
deal with each other.
I think it may prove to have been foolish though, you were
actually able to go ahead with my plan if you knew what
Austria's orders would have been. You'd have just as
many builds now, though one less actual center and
an ally who was growing rather than having me shrink.
> France moved excatly like I feared
Of course he did, it was open knowledge what his moves
would be, I told you as much.
> I needed builds desperately. Keith was adamant that Greece is
> to be his or he will join France in killing me.
Keith would have been unable to do anything but continue
to fight me.
Oh lordy, we seem to spend more time arguing about the past
moves than thinking of future ones. You know how headstrong
you are, how uncompromising. Out of interest, do you think
that's a flaw or a strength?
> I felt like I got no choise.
ChoiCe.
And you did have. You could have disbanded a retreating Con
and warned me to try harder to keep Rum. Bul would have stayed
yours, you'd have exactly the same number of builds that you
have now if you'd taken Gre too. More really since A Con
would be a rebuild. Still, I've explained that a few times
now. I think you suffer from a not-invented-here syndrome
and tend to argue for and stick to reguardless whatever
plan it is you see first, reguardless of what is actually
the best option.
> I don't know if I'll last long 'cause FG seems to be co-operating well.
Not very long at all since you now have France and Germany
AND Russia out to capture centers from you. If taking Gre
was a problem for you then just keeping Bul and taking
the rebuild from A Con would have got you as many units
to use against France.
> It is possible that you will get a chance
> to say that you were right in the first place.
I'm always right, if everyone did what I said all the time
then there'd be a close two/three-way call with them just failing
to my solo. Heh.
> It is still possible that I'll be crushed between AFG.
This would be my guess. There will be a three way draw now
most likely, the only question is whether Austria or Russia
will be the third power. I'm at a disadvantage for that
right now, but it's a narrow one and Steve fears Keith more
than me which is good incentive for him to take Austria
out first.
>From now on I need to concentrate on France. I am not able to do anything
> if you want to harash me. I do understand your feelings if you decide to
> attack me. I might do that if I were you. But you have other choises as
> well. I mean, that German army in Tyrolia is a pain to me _and_ to Austria
> it is possible that Austria will build to Vie.
I'd have thought so.
> That would give you the opportunity to take Rumania back.
Yeah, but unless you actually offer some help to get me
a center somehow I can't see why I wouldn't ask for
Keith's help to get one of yours instead? No?
> In the end the choise is yours and I do
> understand if you decide to give me a kind of payback.
Revenge isn't my style, but as you kept pointing out,
you're kind of busy with France to do anything, you're
not in a great position to help me gain any of Keith's
centers and he could quite easily help me get some of
yours.
> If you think that I am worth of allying with then you should consider
> dispanding Ankara and Black Sea. If you think I am arrogant then you just
> dispand Moscow and Stp.
I'll do neither of these.
> In case you realize that I have no need to be in bad terms with you, you
> should think about taking either Gal or Rum as a target in spring. I
> understand if you do not want to make plans with me in that case I'll just
> watch your next moves and try to figure out your intentions.
I'm happy to make plans with you. Which centers are you prepared
to help me get and how? Which Austrian centers would you like to
take? Without an incentive, plans aren't exactly worth a great deal.
Adam...........
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:09 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
> I have sent him a message trying to smooth things over, but I have not
> heard from him. His primary goal was to disengage in the South so that
> he could concentrate on defending against Germany. I've told him that I
> will not attack him further, and that we could even work together against
> Germany if he wants.
I have also told him that I am not going to go further east. I told him
that I have problems with France and I would love to make peace in east.
Now it is up to him to decide if he wants to co-operate with us.
> Yes, I could do that. I prefer of course not to lose Rum. I would love
> for Russia to disband F Bla.
I would prefer that disband also. If you could decide would you give the
center to Germany rather than to Russia? I have no problem there if you
have them both (Mun,Rum) but if you can have only one which would you
prefer?
> > Did you sent the broadcast that just arrived?
>
> No.
Then it should be Adam. I wonder why he does not answer to our mails then?
BTW, I want you to know that in desperate situation I might ask you to
enter to Ionian Sea. I hope you won't move there unless I ask you to.
My position is such that I have to rely on you no matter what the builds
and removals are. So it ain't such a huge sacrifice to me. Do you think
it is impossible for you to change Tunis to Greece? I understand if you
are not interested in. I ask because I am still afraid of AFG.
I hope you are not offended by my AFG fears. I want to be honest with you.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:11 2001
Broadcast message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey in 'gutsy':
>Broadcast message in 'gutsy':
>
> > or the 3-way draw it's going to end up being.
>
>A prediction! Any guesses as to which three powers at this point?
Well, claiming a Judge game will end in a 3-way is
hardly a prediction, ;^} but if I was to make one
at this point, I'd say 49% chance of a French Solo,
24% chance AFG 3-way, 24% chance FGI 3-way, with
the other 3% split between a variety of other
possibilities. Of course, this depends on how Keith
and Raine react to FF WMed, and GA Tyl.
(Keep in mind, though, that lack of strategic vision
is the biggest difference between Roger's JDPR and
mine. 8-) Lately, however, it does seem as though
I've made a breakthrough on that front, so we'll see
whether my prediction comes close to reality.)
Eric.
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:12 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
Steve,
Woh, that went pretty badly for me I guess. I don't think all
is lost though, and the fact I'm struggling gives you more
insentive to choose an attack on Austria rather than me
I suppose. I know you've always thought he was more of
a threat and he's even got more SC's now!
In fact, if it's a solo you're playing for (and I assume that
would be your prefered result) then letting me help you in
Austria would be your best move. You can finish me off later
at the end to stab for 18!
I've been a little worried about your silence. I was deliberately
not sending any press to give myself time to calm down and
get thoughts of revenge out of my mind, I guess the weekend
can make press seem further apart than it really is.
Are you still planning to support me into Norway? The help
would be appreciated and the fact I've got to disband
a couple of units this year makes there even less of a
threat that I'd be able to keep it once you decide I'm
ripe :)
Adam..........
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:13 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
Adam indicated that he's inclined to remove Mos and BLA. F Bla is potentially
very useful to me (as a thorn in Italy's side), so I suggested that he might be
able to afford to remove A Ukr if he anticpates a build (of A Mos) from Nwy next
year. What do you think? Would it leave his center too open?
Rod
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:15 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> He just never accepts any proposals other than his own usually.
Raine does seem rather single-minded.
> That said, it's usually quite hard to coordinate anything
> with Keith too, he just doens't write frequently enough
> to get a great deal discussed.
Maybe A/I just happen to naturally agree to the extent that little talk is required.
> I guess
> Mun - Tyr commited him to some extent, though Keith
> remains convinced that A Tyr is there to attack Ven,
> even though that's impossible for the spring at least!
His presence in Tyr is potentially good for both of us, and if Keith is content
to let him remain there, all the better!
> I'm going to keep StP because there's still some chance Steve
> will keep his word and support it into Norway
He had indicated to me that he will do so, though of course I can't guarantee that
he won't change his mind.
> A Mos has to be one of the two to go of course, so it leaves
> a choice between Ukr and Bla. F Bla might be the best bet,
> A Ank is pretty safe for a short while at least,
I think you're right. Ukr is more necessary as a defensive unit, though losing
the offensive potential of F Bla is quite a setback.
Maybe if you anticipate a build from Nwy, you can hold onto F Bla, defend your
line as well as you can this year, and build A Mos to replace A Ukr next year.
> but if I do disband F Bla it will make peace with Austria harder
> since an army in Rum was his problem with peace the whole of last year.
Or maybe that was just his excuse. Do you really think he'll ally with you now
that you're not in Rum?
> Raine say's he's going to concentrate on fighting you,
> but he's lied a little to much and too hard without
> reason for me to see much point in believing that.
He tells me the same thing, and I think it's likely that he will focus on western
defense - but with his builds, he need not withdraw from the east to defend the west.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:17 2001
Broadcast message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France in
'gutsy':
> I'd say 49% chance of a French Solo
If everyone thinks Eric's estimate is accurate, I'd be happy to let Roger decide
the game randomly (with those odds), and we can all move on to "gutsy2". :-)
Personally, I think a win is much less likely than a three-way.
Rod
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:18 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> Obviously you couldn't tell me, I'm quite impressed at how
> well the lies were coordinated between you and Kieth. Either
> blind luck or you've both improved your communication some
> deal with each other.
I think there hasn't been any problems with communication between me and
Keith, well maybe at the very beginning.
> I think it may prove to have been foolish though, you were
> actually able to go ahead with my plan if you knew what
> Austria's orders would have been. You'd have just as
> many builds now, though one less actual center and
> an ally who was growing rather than having me shrink.
I wasn't aware of Keith's moves excatly. I did not know if he would
support Greece to hold or not. That was great diplomacy from his part to
keep it secret but to co-operate otherwise.
> Of course he did, it was open knowledge what his moves
> would be, I told you as much.
I want to thank you for telling this to me. It always helps when more
people tell tell the same thing.
> Oh lordy, we seem to spend more time arguing about the past
> moves than thinking of future ones. You know how headstrong
> you are, how uncompromising. Out of interest, do you think
> that's a flaw or a strength?
Adam I know that my weakness is the stubborness, I do. I have tried to do
the best I can with Italy in this game. So far, so good...
> > I felt like I got no choise.
>
> ChoiCe.
Thank you.
> And you did have. You could have disbanded a retreating Con
> and warned me to try harder to keep Rum. Bul would have stayed
> yours, you'd have exactly the same number of builds that you
> have now if you'd taken Gre too. More really since A Con
> would be a rebuild. Still, I've explained that a few times
> now. I think you suffer from a not-invented-here syndrome
> and tend to argue for and stick to reguardless whatever
> plan it is you see first, reguardless of what is actually
> the best option.
You might be right. If it turns out to be that way I am the first to admit
that I was wrong. I know that I am uncompromising but I can admit when I
was wrong and when I made a mistake.
> I'm always right, if everyone did what I said all the time
> then there'd be a close two/three-way call with them just failing
> to my solo. Heh.
:-)
> This would be my guess. There will be a three way draw now
> most likely, the only question is whether Austria or Russia
> will be the third power. I'm at a disadvantage for that
> right now, but it's a narrow one and Steve fears Keith more
> than me which is good incentive for him to take Austria
> out first.
The problem is that Keith has difficulties to attack Keith. If FG keeps
solid they'll face the problem that Rod gains nothing while Steve can
pick up Norway and Stp.
> Yeah, but unless you actually offer some help to get me
> a center somehow I can't see why I wouldn't ask for
> Keith's help to get one of yours instead? No?
Feel free to ask Keith's help. I cannot give you anything else than my
neutrality. I cannot support you against Keith from Bulgarian south coast.
I cannot cut any supports from there either. What I can offer is that I
am not moving towards you anymore. We have an easy way to make peaceful
border there, if you just dispand your fleet in Black Sea. Think of it
from my point of view. I can then move Aeg-Ion and go to take what Rod has
to give me (hard times :-) We can keep our border quite by having your
fleet in Ankara and my army in Con. I have no future if I try to take a
center from you now. I need all my forces in west and you know that.
> Revenge isn't my style, but as you kept pointing out,
> you're kind of busy with France to do anything, you're
> not in a great position to help me gain any of Keith's
> centers and he could quite easily help me get some of
> yours.
The question is, will Keith help you? If he will then I am history. Then I
am the first to admit that I made a mistake, I was wrong, you were right.
> > If you think that I am worth of allying with then you should consider
> > dispanding Ankara and Black Sea. If you think I am arrogant then you just
> > dispand Moscow and Stp.
>
> I'll do neither of these.
I meant, of course that if you think I am arrogant you attack me the way
you think is best for you. Probably keeping your both soutern fleets.
> I'm happy to make plans with you. Which centers are you prepared
> to help me get and how? Which Austrian centers would you like to
> take? Without an incentive, plans aren't exactly worth a great deal.
I can offer you my neutrality. I know I am not offering much. On the
other hand I am not asking much eiter. I want your neutrality.
Disbanding a southern fleet would be a good start. You know that I am not
a threat to you. I cannot move any further east or I am in big troubles in
west (you are right, I am already :-) So it is up to you how we shall
continue. I see the irony :-) but it is true that my future is partly in
your hands.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:21 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
>Broadcast message from France in'gutsy':
>
> > I'd say 49% chance of a French Solo
>
>Personally, I think a win is much less likely than a three-way.
As Poe said, "Revenge is a dish, best served cold."
Consider this my revenge for all of your pre-S1901M
Broadcast calls to eliminate me first. ;^}
Obviously, a lot depends on how AI & R react to the
FG move across the stalemate line, and how much
Steve trusts you, but if anyone solos here, it should
be you, and the mess in the East makes that more
likely than you might expect.
Eric.
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:22 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
> Consider this my revenge for all of your pre-S1901M
> Broadcast calls to eliminate me first. ;^}
Yeah, I thought it might be something like that. ;-) I never expected anyone to
take me seriously though. :-)
Rod
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:23 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> I've been a little worried about your silence.
Hmmm...something must have happened there either with the judge or with my
ISP. I'm sure I sent you something, but I can't find a record of it. In
any case, sorry if you thought I was ignoring you.
> Are you still planning to support me into Norway?
Yes, definitely. Now, more than ever, I want to give you the centers you
need against Austria. Letting you have Norway and St Pete is the best thing
for both of us in so many ways.
Your disbands are a little tricky, though. I'm not sure what Rod has said,
but it looks like you have to choose between Ukr/Bla or Ukr/Mos.
If you get this before submitting moves, please write. I'll be here for a
bit.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:24 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
I meant: Mos/Ukr and Mos/Bla. I hope that makes more sense.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:26 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I just wrote to Adam saying he had to choose between Mos/Bla and Mos/Ukr.
He has nothing to fear from me, but Keith could support himself into Ukraine
and then hit War in the fall if he misplays the spring.
I go back and forth. I tend to think Mos/Bla is stronger for him since he
couldn't use Bla both against Raine and against Keith, but...keeping Bla
might be the better position diplomatically.
Just so you know, I have no problem supporting Adam in the north (letting
him have nwy and stp) even if he is *not* attacking Austria. If he feels
comfortable pestering Raine and bouncing/holding against Keith, I'm up for
it. That might allow Adam to solidify his position surrounding Keith
(taking Con, then pressuring Bul).
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:28 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi,
> Hmm... no big surprises there, other than my taking Rumania.
I wasn't so much surprised that you took Rumania as much as I was surprised
that you took Rumania *and* Raine kept Con. Adam could have held himself to
a single SC loss *and* taken Galicia if he wanted it. Instead, he's facing
a double disband and an exposed middle.
You played both the tactics and diplomacy very well there; I wasn't sure if
you were going to get a build or not. Adam wrote me a letter saying that he
thought he had good prospects with both you and Raine; I was a bit
skeptical. :)
> What are you going to do with your army in Tyrolia now?
I'm not really sure. I need to see the adjustments before I can commit in
any meaningful sort of way. I'd love to talk, though.
As I said in an earlier letter, the move to Tyrolia is purely diplomatic in
nature. Sure, if I had found Ven or Tri open in the spring, I might have
worked with you or Raine against the other, but no one on the board expected
that to happen so you have to know I'm telling the truth here.
So far, it's worked out very well; Rod's in the med and AGI is talking more.
That's all I wanted to see.
I will build A Mun simply because a fleet is useless tactically and just
messes up my diplomatic position. Similar logic, BTW, explains my fall move
Hol - Kie. I expect you'll build A Vie, but I'd urge you to build wherever
gives you the best position against Raine and Adam. I certainly will not
attack Vienna this year; I do not expect my next center to be Austrian.
There have been a couple of observer (and Eric) posts about possible 3-ways
so I'd like to raise a couple of other issues:
- Raine has asked me to retreat to Mun. I understand his desire, but I
really don't want to do that. I am willing to move into the Piedmont with
Italian support, however. If you and Raine want to discuss an active AGI, I
think now is an exellent time. I'll follow your lead on the diplomatic
front here. Let me know what you think or just start it up with "press to
GI"
- The other obvious possibility is AFG. That would mean I turn on Adam
immediately and you turn on Raine (in Bulgaria at least). This one is
*very* dependent on the adjustments and the spring moves so maybe we should
wait a season to pursue it further.
That's where I'm at. Write when you can.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:33 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> I meant: Mos/Ukr and Mos/Bla. I hope that makes more sense.
You seem to have just caught me, if you're still there.
I'm back from the pub and although a little drunk I'll
be up for a couple of hours. God knows when the deadline
is. Soon, for sure.
Glad to hear you'll still support me into Norway, I'm going
to keep the Northern fleet so this shouldn't be a problem.
Obviously Mos has ot go, so the choice is between Bla and
Mos bascially. I'd really like to hurt Raine, on an
emotional level anyway. I blame him for not attacking
Austria when he should have. More to the point, now
I've cooled down a little anyway, he's least in a
position to hurt me so I figure F Bla would be the
best disband. Assuming I can take Rum back with A Sev
this year I'd be able to rebuild that fleet anyway.
There's much more threat from Austria right now than
there is from Italy.
You'll be glad to know that Keith is convinced that your
choice is between attacking me or Italy, he seems convinced
that your not after him. Whatever you're saying to him
is working: Keep saying it.
Pre........
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:35 2001
Broadcast message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia in 'gutsy':
> If everyone thinks Eric's estimate is accurate, I'd be
> happy to let Roger decide the game randomly (with those
> odds), and we can all move on to "gutsy2". :-)
>
> Personally, I think a win is much less likely than a three-way.
I'm slightly disapointed at how easily he seems to
have written me off. "I'm not quite dead yet" as
he said to me!
RE: whether his elimiation was a result of his
rating or his ranting, I'd say it's a false dillema.
"No" would be my answer. I think he was eliminated
first for a combination of reasons, the top three
of which I'll list here (in reverse order, of course):
3) Raine in Italy seemed to have a similar idea for
the way he'd like to play his next Italy and I'd
like to play my next Russia. If all else were
equal I'd have gone for Lepanto followed by R/I
squashing Austria.
2) Italy was determined to stick to that plan,
even when it became irrelevent. When I mean
attack I mean disable, not destroy. We had
communication difficulties there. Also, I
suspect, philosophical differences on
the relevency of elimination. I get the
impression Raine is happy to have a four
way end-game. I'd WAY sooner have a seven
way end-game.
1) That move to Bla, frankly. I was talking better
with Eric than anyone else up until then and
the only thing stopping me changing my mind
and going with a Juggernaught was that move.
Well, this is all from my perspective, and I'd
probably be better leaving this for an EOG but
the end looks close enough that it makes little
difference right now.
Adam............
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:37 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
RE: my broadcast just now. Carefully calculated!
I think the more R and I think I I'm dying
the less they'll bother to defend against me.
Has to be a bonus for us both!
Adam..............
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:38 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
RE: my broadcast just now. Carefully calculated!
I think the more R and I think I I'm dying
the less they'll bother to defend against me.
Has to be a bonus for us both!
Adam..............
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:39 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> Indeed, it's going to be another akward year. My main hope
> is that you'll realize what Germany is doing when he moves
> on Vie or Tri this spring. Maybe that will be enough to
> convince you that peace between us has been my aim for
> some time.
We need to find the best way to disentangle ourselves from each other.
It can be tricky since there are so many supply centers so close to each
other.
> Well, last time he talked to me he was still promising me Norway,
> but he hasn't really said anything for a while. I'm not sure
> he'll bother anymore, but we'll see.
You think he will support you to Norway? Then this will mean that he
will attack France soon, or do you think he will just sit and wait for now?
> In the meantime, if I take Rum back with F Bla in such a way
> that you get to have Bla back, would that go some way to
> making peace between us? Clearly I can't do anything that
> requires any trust at all now, but UKR and SEV supporting
> Bla into Rum while War cut's Gal's support would force
> you to retreat it. You can use Gre and Ser to support it
> into Bul.
So, is it out of the question to let me keep Rumania? Or, you want me to
attack Bulgaria, and you're willing to put a fleet into Rumania? I'm not
sure what you mean.
Do you know what you're going to disband, and how will this affect our
strategy in the South?
> Does that sound like something we could do? Can we get Gal
> DMZed this year too do you think? You could do with using it
> to cover Vie this year I'd imagine.
Gal is a very sensitive area for me because it borders two of my home
supply centers. If I don't have an army in Rum, then Gal is no threat to
you (your biggest worry is that I move into Ukr). I don't want to move
Gal if you are going to move there to cut its support, for instance.
We need to come up with some compromises, I think. I see that you can
take Rum by force unless I build in Budapest. I think I'd prefer to
build in Vienna. I don't think we should each waste four of our units
just to contest a single supply center (Rum). What do you think?
Austria
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:40 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> > What are you going to do with your army in Tyrolia now?
>
> I'm not really sure. I need to see the adjustments before I can commit in
> any meaningful sort of way. I'd love to talk, though.
What adjustments are you particularly concerned about?
> As I said in an earlier letter, the move to Tyrolia is purely diplomatic in
> nature. Sure, if I had found Ven or Tri open in the spring, I might have
> worked with you or Raine against the other, but no one on the board expected
> that to happen so you have to know I'm telling the truth here.
>
> So far, it's worked out very well; Rod's in the med and AGI is talking more.
> That's all I wanted to see.
It seems like an invasion to me. I don't see any useful thing it can
do. You've told Russia you plan to attack me with it. I would prefer to
build in Budapest to save Rumania, but then I can't really have your
remaining in Tyrolia, either.
> - Raine has asked me to retreat to Mun. I understand his desire, but I
> really don't want to do that. I am willing to move into the Piedmont with
> Italian support, however. If you and Raine want to discuss an active AGI, I
> think now is an exellent time. I'll follow your lead on the diplomatic
> front here. Let me know what you think or just start it up with "press to
> GI"
Do you have the capability of attacking France, even? If he disengages
from Italy, it seems like he is at least an even match for you. You
don't have enough armies, do you?
> - The other obvious possibility is AFG. That would mean I turn on Adam
> immediately and you turn on Raine (in Bulgaria at least). This one is
> *very* dependent on the adjustments and the spring moves so maybe we should
> wait a season to pursue it further.
I am presuming that I will be entangled with Russia for some time, and I
can't do much of anything else while I am. Your moving something against
Russia would create some flexibility for me. Right now I can't do AFG
because I am not strong enough--or Russia and Italy are too strong. I
would get crushed in the middle. If Russia is weakened it becomes
powerful. But how could you attack France if your armies were away at
the Russian front?
Austria
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:42 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> > Yes, I could do that. I prefer of course not to lose Rum. I would love
> > for Russia to disband F Bla.
>
> I would prefer that disband also. If you could decide would you give the
> center to Germany rather than to Russia? I have no problem there if you
> have them both (Mun,Rum) but if you can have only one which would you
> prefer?
I don't think I will be able to get Munich. Germany will still have his
A Kie and A Mun (he will build an army I think), so I'd have to move to
Sil as well, or get Russia to help.
> BTW, I want you to know that in desperate situation I might ask you to
> enter to Ionian Sea. I hope you won't move there unless I ask you to.
> My position is such that I have to rely on you no matter what the builds
> and removals are. So it ain't such a huge sacrifice to me. Do you think
> it is impossible for you to change Tunis to Greece? I understand if you
> are not interested in. I ask because I am still afraid of AFG.
Exchange Tunis for Greece? That would be strange. I don't think we'll
get the chance. Don't you think France is going to move Mid-Naf and
build F Mar? What has France been telling you?
> I hope you are not offended by my AFG fears. I want to be honest with you.
No, it is a legitimate concern. Germany just mentioned to me that he
could see either AFG or AGI. I've told him that I could not do AFG
because you and Russia would crush me in the middle. Plus, how could
Germany attack France if his armies were on the Russian front?
Austria
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:43 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
There's one other option which might be interesting. Consider it if you'd
like.
You could disband Moscow and Ankara and then say to Raine: "Enough is
enough. Let me keep Ank and I'll take Rumania." That would tie up Kieth's
next build no matter where it is. At worse, you stay even (but get Norway).
At best, you get two builds.
Just a thought.
Right now, I favor a strong Italy and Russia above a strong France and
Austria. That's where I'm at.
Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:45 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
> I'll tell you about saunas when our position is less tense.
Thanks for being so direct; I appreciate it. And, I agree.
In order to reduce the tension, I think we need to talk a bit more. You and
I in particular, and AGI or GIR in general.
I moved Mun - Tyr to increase my diplomatic flexibility with you and with
Keith. It also allowed me to keep a promise I made to Rod. As I said to
Keith, if I had found Ven or Tri open, I would have considered working with
one of you against the other, but we're all good enough players to know that
you and Keith would cover your centers.
> I thought you understood that I have been helping you by taking
> centers from Russia.
Yes, I do understand that and I do appreciate it, but right now I favor a
relatively strong Russia. I've told Adam that he can keep Norway and St
Pete to support his effort in the east/south. I'd much rather see him use
those units against Keith than against you.
Maybe you and Adam can come to some agreement in Turkey which would allow
him to keep Ankara and concentrate on Austria while you keep Bul/Con/Smy and
concentrate on Rod. That's what I'd like to see.
Write when you can. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:46 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
Adam,
> Broadcast message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia in 'gutsy':
> I'm slightly disapointed at how easily he seems to
> have written me off. "I'm not quite dead yet" as
> he said to me!
Well, my estimates were based only on the information I had
available to me, and were shifted in an attempt to influence the
game. By writing you off, I actually increased your odds of
survival. ;^}
> 3) Raine in Italy seemed to have a similar idea for
> the way he'd like to play his next Italy and I'd
> like to play my next Russia. If all else were
> equal I'd have gone for Lepanto followed by R/I
> squashing Austria.
Certainly the "standard" Eastern opening, but I would think that
should be influenced by the negotiations, and unless Keith did a
MUCH better job with you and Raine than he did with me, he
should have been first to go in the East.
> 1) That move to Bla, frankly. I was talking better
> with Eric than anyone else up until then and
> the only thing stopping me changing my mind
> and going with a Juggernaught was that move.
In my opinion, you should have accepted the apology I made,
and the apology implicit in my F1901 Moves, and not built
F Sev. We'd both be better off right now. (At least I would
be. 8-)
Eric.
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:48 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi,
Sorry about this tit-for-tat format; I'll write a more conventional letter
after the builds are in. For now, I just want to respond to the questions
you raised.
I suspect I might sound a little terse in this letter. I don't mean it that
way; it's just that we're at a tricky point in our negotiations and I'm
trying to be as up-front and honest as I can.
> What adjustments are you particularly concerned about?
None, really. I need to see what everyone does before I start making any
silly-ass promises. I expect France to build F Mar; Italy to build A Rom
and F Nap; you to build A Vie; Russia to disband F Bla and A Mos, and
England to disband A Cly and F Bar. I'll build A Mun.
> It seems like an invasion to me.
I understand, but I can't really do too much against you with a single unit
(or even two if I build in Mun). At this point, I don't gain much by
deceiving you.
> I don't see any useful thing it can do.
It already has. Anything further I gain as a result of Mun - Tyr on either
the diplomatic or tactical front is welcome, but not expected.
> You've told Russia you plan to attack me with it.
Actually, I didn't; if that's what Adam is saying, he's twisting my words.
I said something like "if I move against anyone, it won't be against you."
I'd like to use Tyr against Rod, but so far I haven't found much support.
> Do you have the capability of attacking France, even?
If Rod orders F Mar - Lyo and A Gas - Mar (which is quite imaginable), I can
have armies in Belgium, Ruhr, Burgundy, and the Piedmont as long as I get
support from you and Raine. That's where I *really* want to be; can you
help me out?
> I am presuming that I will be entangled with Russia for some time, and
> I can't do much of anything else while I am. Your moving something
> against Russia would create some flexibility for me.
If I get the AI support I hope for, I can promise you the support you need
against Russia. If necessary, I'm willing to move against both Russia and
France. The one problem there is that I don't think you'd really want me to
succeed on both fronts, so we had better talk this one out a bit more.
I do appreciate our letters so please write again when you have the chance.
My build order is in; no more diploming for me tonight.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:49 2001
Broadcast message from bwarner34 at home.com as England in 'gutsy':
Sorry everyone, I was on a business trip and wasn't able to get in my
orders.
From - Tue Oct 30 17:59:51 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1904B Tue Oct 30 2001 15:32:01 +1300
Adjustment orders for Winter of 1904. (gutsy.016)
England: Removes the army in Clyde.
England: Removes the fleet in the Barents Sea.
Russia: Removes the fleet in the Black Sea.
Russia: Removes the army in Moscow.
Turkey: Removes the army in Syria.
Austria: Builds an army in Vienna.
Germany: Builds an army in Munich.
Italy: Builds an army in Rome.
Italy: Builds a fleet in Naples.
France: Builds an army in Paris.
France: Builds a fleet in Marseilles.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Movement for Spring of 1905.
The deadline for orders will be Fri Nov 02 2001 20:00:00 +1300.
