Fall 1902
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From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:07 2001
Broadcast message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia in 'gutsy':
Sorry for the late everyone, I got
so caught up in what to do with all
my other units I forgot to send an
order to F Swe alltogether.
Adam.........
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:08 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England, France and Germany
in 'gutsy':
> Movement results for Spring of 1902. (gutsy.004)
>
> Austria: Army Serbia -> Bulgaria.
> Austria: Army Vienna -> Bohemia.
> Austria: Army Trieste -> Tyrolia.
> Austria: Army Budapest -> Vienna.
>
> Italy: Army Tyrolia -> Piedmont.
> Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea -> Aegean Sea.
> Russia: Army Warsaw -> Silesia.
> Russia: Army Moscow -> Warsaw.
>
> The Turkish Army in Bulgaria with no valid retreats was destroyed.
All those in favor of a Western Triple, say, "Aye."
Aye!
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:10 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Good job with London.
Regarding the other major issue (read: Russia and Austria), I need to get
my wits about me. That was stunning!
I'll write more when I have the chance and a better working brain. :)
- Steve
P.S. It looks like you're going to reach center #5 quicker than you
thought. :)
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:12 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria and Italy in 'gutsy':
Allies,
Well Germany fell straight into our trap didn't he. Poor
old soul. For some reason I'd forgotten that you can move
straight to Pie from Tyr too which explains Italy's
reluctance to hold/move to Munich, I guess he's just
as quick into France anyway now.
We can take Con this year the way things have turned
out. That should mean that we're able to take at
least one supply center each this year in total:
Bul, Mun/Ber and Con. One each, sounds perfect. We
just need to decide which ones go to who. Keith
already has Bul, Raine will presumably either take
Con or Keith takes Con and Gre goes to Raine. The
alternatives seem to be:
F Gre - Bul; F Aeg S A Bul - Con
or
F Gre - Aeg; A Bul S F Aeg - Con; F Ion - Bul.
If Raine is serious about going after France he'll
presumably prefer the first since that frees up
F Ion to head West.
In Germany I think it might be best if A Sil takes
Ber (then we'll have one SC each) while Tyr and
Boh and attempt Munich. Obviously Germany can bounce
that if he orders Ruh and Bur both into the area
but there is a chance he'll give up on Munich since
we have three armies to his two on it and then Keith
will claim it. If he does bounce us then he'll still
have two compared to our four units on it in the
spring next year (Tyr, Boh, Sil, Ber).
There's some room for debate there, but it mostly
seems fairly clear cut to me. The question is do I
offer Den to England? I could support F Nth into Den
to reduce Steve's power and prop up England against
France long enough for Raine to get all the way
over there. I'd value your advice on this. He'd
probably prefer to take London anyway at a guess.
I'll have fairly spotty access from tommorow up
until Monday afternoon since I'll be going up
north to visit my parents and see a gig with
some friends tommorow so the more we can get
sorted out quickly the better from that point of
view.
Adam...........
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:13 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Sorry about my little incursion into Burgundy. I was concerned about you
giving up on London and surrounding Belgium. I'll be heading home now. :)
Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:16 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
While the fact I was late did mean that I recieved your
note in time to change my moves, I didn't actually read
it until after the moves came through. I don't think
I'd have done anything different even if I had done
however.
Looks fairly bad for poor old F Bla now though.
Adam............
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:17 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
Wow! I did not expect that in the slightest. What the heck is Adam
thinking?
Any ideas? My head is spinning. :)
Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:18 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
Well, I decided I couldn't really afford to wait to
see what Steve would do, which is a pitty in some
ways since it looks like he was planning to do you
some favours in the end. I presume that the bounce
in Nth was arranged. He'd told me that he intended to
sit on the fence for another year which I thought
would basically make his decision for him since
you may well have been too weak to be savlageable
by then.
Nice moves though, F Lon was as good as in Liverpool
as far as I was concerned but you've headed him off
at the pass. Assuming Germany doesn't actively help
France now you can take London back. Well done indeed.
Unfortunately, France still won't have to disband if
he gets a build from Spain. Which looks inevitable.
Still, you'll get to build in Lvp which can only help.
I wondered about offering you Den, but I imagine that
you'll be needing Nth to take Lon back instead.
I'll have only infrequent access this phase I'm afraid
since I'm going away for a long weekend at my folks
house up north tommorow. I will try to access my email
while I'm there and at any rate be able to reply either
today, tommorow morning or Monday afternoon.
Adam............
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:20 2001
Broadcast message [from bwarner34 at home.com as England] in 'gutsy':
OK observers, none of you can claim that you were expecting that. Lets
see some participation!
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:21 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France, Germany and Turkey in
'gutsy':
[ All those in favor of a Western Triple, say, "Aye."]
Aye!
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:23 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
I've never been happier to see all my moves bounce. I agonized over the
moves for Nth and Yor for quite a while, going back and forth with "I would
do this" and "But if I was expecting that, I would do this". Looks like it
paid off. Basically I decided to take my 50/50 now as opposed to next turn.
That way you and my other potential friends would know whether or not I was
going to pick up a center and could go from there. Looks like I will be
picking up London and getting a build in Liverpool too!
Of course, its what is happening on the other side of the board that
everyone is really interested in. Looks like the cavalry is coming to
"save" me, though from the wrong person of course. A full blown AIR from
what I can tell, an idea so creative that it kind of makes me wish I was on
the Eastern side of the board. I've never seen an Eastern triple before,
but from their position right now, it looks like a pretty effective team.
I'm sure the diplomatic landscape has changed immensely for everyone now,
so I'm going to try to get initial impressions of where everyone stands
before I start making proposals. Thanks for helping me out with the move to
Burgundy, I suspect Rod should be having some serious second thoughts right
now when it comes to his attack on London. You'll be hearing more from me
of course!
Brent
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:25 2001
Broadcast message [from Elladan915 at netzero.net,Dip_Power at hotmail.com as
Turkey] in 'gutsy':
>Broadcast message in 'gutsy':
>
>none of you can claim that you were expecting that.
"No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our greatest
weapon is Surprise and Fear! No, wait, our two
greatest weapons are Surprise, Fear, and an Unswerving
Devotion to the Church! No, wait..."
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:26 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
Wow, how come no one invited me to the party? =) Very interesting moves,
it looks like you've got a bona fide Eastern triple going. That really tugs
at the heart strings of one who is always looking to try new and different
ideas. Unfortunately, as you said, its first target is the same country
that just became my first true ally. I haven't heard from him on the
subject yet, but I'm guessing he's now going to feel a need to pull back
from France and defend himself.
At this point, I think all the Westerners are in a bit of shock and unsure
about what they want to do. So let me be the first to offer my services as
the Triple's ally in the West. The way triples usually resolve is that
three from one side and one from the other take on everything, and then one
of the three gets squeezed to bring it down to a 3-way. I think I am in a
prime position to be that one from the West. I've got good diplomatic
relations with everyone in the East, I will soon be in a good position to
take on both France and Germany, and am positioned in the corner so that you
need not fear me as much and I need not fear you as much. We'd obviously
need to work out some ground rules so that I can feel that I'm not just
inviting the three of you in to roll over me next, but I think that can be
accomplished. Let me know what you think and we can begin negotiations on
it.
Brent
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:28 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Wow, its amazing how much the landscape of the board can change in one
turn. I think all of us Westerners were definitely outclassed by the
creativity and cooperation which we are now seeing come out of the East.
And I think you will agree that you and I have a whole lot more to talk
about now.
There are basically two ways I can see us dealing with this new situation
(well, three, but I'm not counting the one where we all fight each other and
die). The first would be you and I completing the sandwich of Germany,
hoping that we can shore up the holes that he has left. The second is the
one Eric suggested, to fight fire with fire. It makes sense that the best
way to respond to an Eastern triple like we are seeing is to form a Western
triple of our own. We are already at a disadvantage to them, because they
have crossed our borders first and will be gaining extra strength from the
Turkish centers. The first solution will mean they also gain some more
centers off Germany, since we wouldn't be able to grab them all. Somewhere
along the line we have to bring our diplomatic powers into play also and try
to find a way to split a member off of the 3 way (though I can't immediately
discern who the one to go after is).
Reagrdless of our decision, I hope you can now decide that peace with
England is a more attractive state for you than war with England. I will
obviously be moving to recover London this fall, but with Spain this
shouldn't necessitate a removal for you. Beyond that, I am willing to
listen to all arguments and proposals and see what we can hash out.
Brent
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:30 2001
Broadcast message from dvw21 at phy.cam.ac.uk as Observer in 'gutsy':
Ok then just caught up with the game.
Maybe I'm showing my inexperience but this looks like a good AIR alliance
I'd expect (but dont shoot me if I'm wrong) the fall moves to be (assuming
a strong AR alliance with no loitering to cover backs)
Russia:
F sev - arm
F bla c A rum - con
A sil - ber
A war - sil
A rum - bla - con
Austria:
A bul s A rum - con
A tyr s A boh - mun
A boh - mun
A vie either - boh or h
Italy:
A pie h
either convoy army to smy or move f aeg - smy, f ion - tys
Altyernatively italy could support into greece and destroy the austrian
fleet by arrangement.
Well thats what I'd expect - any other observers got any ideas? (they'll
probably be better than mine but never mind).
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:32 2001
Broadcast message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey in 'gutsy':
>Broadcast message from dvw21 at phy.cam.ac.uk as Observer in 'gutsy':
>
>this looks like a good AIR alliance
>I'd expect (but dont shoot me if I'm wrong) the fall moves to be ...
Hey, now! No need to offer tactical advice to
the Hot AIR! 8-) They don't need any help.
Eric (the Turkey in the Turkey Shoot)
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:33 2001
Broadcast message from dvw21 at phy.cam.ac.uk as Observer in 'gutsy':
>> this looks like a good AIR alliance
>> I'd expect (but dont shoot me if I'm wrong) the fall moves to be ...
>
> Hey, now! No need to offer tactical advice to
> the Hot AIR! 8-) They don't need any help.
>
> Eric (the Turkey in the Turkey Shoot)
I thought the Idea was that none of you need any help 8-)
I'm looking forward to seeing how turkey and germany get out of it if I'm
right.
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:34 2001
Broadcast message from dan at insidecorner.com as Observer in 'gutsy':
> Russia:
> F sev - arm
> F bla c A rum - con
> A rum - bla - con
> Austria:
> A bul s A rum - con
I dunno about this, Ank S Con-Bla, Arm-Sev will dislodge F Bla and make
the convoy not happen. They'll have to think of something else
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:36 2001
Broadcast message from dvw21 at phy.cam.ac.uk as Observer in 'gutsy':
>I dunno about this, Ank S Con-Bla, Arm-Sev will dislodge F Bla and make
>the convoy not happen. They'll have to think of something else
that would meen that if italy orders F aeg - con then italy would take con.
I realise that that wasnt one of the suggestions I made but turkey would
have to take the possibility into account.
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:37 2001
Broadcast message from dan at insidecorner.com as Observer in 'gutsy':
How 'bout Aeg-Con (or Tun-Con), supported by Bla and Bul. Guaranteed to
work, and it gives AIR each one guaranteed build (Bul, Con and Ber,
respectively).
Turkey can defend against most things, but the thing is that he's got to
pick one of AIR that's most likely to be the odd man out once he's gone
and get him onside. I'm sure he's realized that and is already on the
case
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:38 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
>Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>Wow! I did not expect that in the slightest. What the heck is Adam
>thinking?
He's thinking he can't get a build in Turkey
without support from Keith, and he doesn't trust
him that much, plus there is very little room for
Armies to attack Turkey, so it's better to send the
extras west across the stalemate line, than leave
them sitting about considering stab possibilities.
>Any ideas? My head is spinning. :)
I'd strongly recommend endorsing the Western
Triple. It's dangerous for you, but not as
dangerous as attacking France with four RA Armies
in Pru/Sil/Boh/Tyl. I've already got some ideas
for making Adam regret his move, but they require
EFG + T coordination.
Eric.
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:40 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Observer and Master in
'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
I'm facing a 3 on 1 situation here, and Keith
(Austria) is primarily a NoPress player, and
therefore he is quite good tactically. I would
really appreciate it if you would refrain from
discussing AIR's tactical options. The chances
of them overlooking anything is slim, but they
don't need your help refining and perfecting their
plan to eliminate me.
Feel free to discuss the political ramifications/
stategic consequenses of an AIR alliance, and who is
likely to get stabbed once I'm gone, but it's a
mistake to focus on the immediate tactical objective,
without considering the mid- and long-term results,
and it's also unfair to force me to defend against
five or six minds, instead of three.
Thanks,
Eric the Turkey. 8-)
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:41 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Thanks for the letter; as always it is good to talk to you.
Well, I pretty much did what I said I would and I'm very pleased everything
worked out for you with London. If it hadn't, we both would have been in
some serious trouble. I thought Rod might order Lon - Wal. Again, you
played that well.
Too bad Adam and Keith pulled that stunt or we could have made some serious
headway into France. Instead, I have a little scrambling to do. Hopefully,
there will still be the chance for a little EG against F later on, but for
now, I heartily endorse the triple. You expected me to say that, right? :)
I agree with you that we should wait to hear the other player's impressions,
before making proposals. But there are a lot of possibilities, particularly
in Scandanavia.
Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:42 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
> I'd strongly recommend endorsing the Western Triple.
I certainly do!
> I've already got some ideas for making Adam regret
> his move, but they require EFG + T coordination.
Anything you can share with me? Maybe I'm being naive, but I don't see EF
jumping hard on me right away. That would just give my centers to Keith and
Adam.
I do wish I hadn't moved to Burgundy, though. I was just a bit too
paranoid; thinking Rod would give up on London and try for Belgium instead.
Oh well.
Also, what do you think Raine is up to? Brent seems to think he's
coordinating with AR, but that just doesn't feel right. Any chance you
could encourage him into Greece?
Write when you can. We targets have to stick together. :)
- Steve
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:44 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England, France and Turkey in
'gutsy':
> [ All those in favor of a Western Triple, say, "Aye."]
> Aye!
Umm...I'll do it, like I have a choice? :)
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:46 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> As long as the two of us are fighting, he can make sure that he
> keeps the upper hand, and always gets to be the on picking his
> alliance.
It's always nice to have your fingers in more than one pie.
> right now you're a bit higher on my list.
Just above cockroaches, I imagine. ;-)
> Of course, you're also attacking me, which doesn't help matters
> out a whole lot.
I must confess that if Germany had moved as we had agreed and my
little plan of sneaking into Lvp unopposed had succeeded, it would've
probably behooved me to continue the attack. But that's all
irrelevant now.
> Wow, its amazing how much the landscape of the board can change
> in one turn.
Indeed! This is probably the most eventful S02 move I've ever seen.
> I think all of us Westerners were definitely outclassed by the
> creativity and cooperation which we are now seeing come out of the
> East.
And here I thought you were going to say that you orchestrated the
whole thing. :-)
> And I think you will agree that you and I have a whole lot more to
> talk about now.
Absolutely. A wealth of new possibilities has opened up. Good thing
we've maintained "friendly" relations all this time, eh? ;-)
> The first would be you and I completing the sandwich of Germany,
> hoping that we can shore up the holes that he has left. The second
> is the one Eric suggested, to fight fire with fire.
Or we could do both: Stop AIR with the WT, *then* sandwich Germany.
> The first solution will mean they also gain some more
> centers off Germany, since we wouldn't be able to grab them all.
I agree. They're bound to get Mun/Ber, and there's nothing we can do
about it.
> Somewhere along the line we have to bring our diplomatic powers into
> play also and try to find a way to split a member off of the 3 way
> (though I can't immediately discern who the one to go after is).
Russia is the most vulnerable to counterattack, and Italy is the one
least likely to gain. We should hit IR hard and prop G up against A.
> I hope you can now decide that peace with
> England is a more attractive state for you than war with England.
It's clear that I have nothing to gain from attacking you. I can
neither keep Lon nor gain Lvp - thanks to your clever bounces. :-)
Good move!
> I am willing to listen to all arguments and proposals and see what
> we can hash out.
If we go with the Western Triple, I definitely think you should hit
StP. It's en prise, and letting him build there would put you at a
big disadvantage. You must guard against Swe-Nwy, so Nth-Nwy would
also be required. Or, if you're willing to loan Lon to me for one
more year, Yor-Nwy would get you closer to threatening Mos. Either
way, I'll move Lon-Eng, Bre-MAO.
Rod
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:51 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> Sorry about my little incursion into Burgundy.
Tsk-tsk!
> I was concerned about you giving up on London and surrounding Belgium.
Paranoia strikes again! :-)
> I'll be heading home now. :)
I know that I can trust you, because you have no choice but to order
Ruh S Bur-Mun. However, I hope you won't feel insulted if I'm a
little skeptical of your motives in the future.
Rod
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:53 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> When I thought about the move to Pie I wasn't planning an attack.
Please explain to me exactly why you want to have an army in Pie.
> There has been no problems between us.
So why cause problems now? Why move to Pie rather than Ven? I fail
to understand your motivation.
Rod
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:54 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Wow, you certainly got my attention. I did not expect that in the least;
well played.
I know you can just jump right into Berlin, but I'd like to suggest that
would not be your best move. You expected me to say that, right? :)
Right now, you have an excellent opportunity to make some serious headway
into Austria. You could support Black into Bulgaria and Silesia back into
Galicia. That almost guarantees you Budapest next year.
Plus, I'm almost positive Raine will attack Greece. That is definitely
where he wants to be. That means you would still get a build if Brent and I
let you alone
(otherwise it's just going to be destroyed and Sev will be threatened. At
the same time you could support Silesia back into Galicia. That almost
guarantees you Budapest next year.
Meanwhile, I expect Raine to attack Greece and cover Venice. And, I'm
pretty sure Brent doesn't want to piss you off while France is still a
threat.
Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:56 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
LOL. Yep, I really put my foot into it with that one. :)
Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Wed Sep 26 17:17:59 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
This is Anschluss? LOL
I'll probably write again soon, but I'm not really sure what to say right
now. If I think of anything, I'll let you know. :)
- Steve
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:01 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Italy: Army Tyrolia -> Piedmont.
Damn, I really thought I was right when I said Tyr was
heading to Venice. I knew that ultimately it was supposed
to end up in Pied but I forgot it could go straight
there. Haven't played France or Italy enough I guess.
I'm not convinced that this 'triple' is as strong as
those in the peanut gallery seem to think either, your
words of warning about Kieth are still accepted and
I intend to be as careful as can be.
In a way it's a shame, I was convinced you were going
to just side with France and England wouldn't have long
to live, I allowed myself to be convinced into War-Sil
at least in part because of that too.
Oh well, at least this game isn't just a replay of
any of the other games I've played. I hope we can
still talk.
Adam........
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:03 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to France, Germany and Turkey in
'gutsy':
OK, so everyone seems to agree that the only reasonable response to
this Spring's surprise is for all of the rest of us to band together
until it can be broken up. Now we need to decide what our
counter-alliance's goals are.
Personally, I think goal number one should be seeing if we can save
Eric. Having an ally on the other side of the line will prove immensely
helpful. We need to do something fast though, because at the current
rate he will be eliminated by next Fall. Since we can't provide
tactical support, we need to provide diplomatic support. The way I see
it, the best thing we can do for Eric right now is to make sure that AIR
know we are gunning for them and will be shifting all of our forces in
their direction. The more worried we can make them, the less forces
they have to throw at Eric.
We also need to pick a main target out of the three to try to split
them up. If we can get just one of them to switch, the alliance should
fall apart. I can see arguments for each of them. Adam is most likely
to get hit by the counterattack, since he shares the biggest border.
He's also the least experienced. Keith is in the middle, which is
incredibly dangerous in a three way like this. Raine is least likely to
gain anything from this. Rod is going to be turned around in time for
him to close off the Atlantic, and I can't really see what he's gaining
from this arrangement.
We also obviously need a Western cease-fire. Rod has already agreed
to return London to me and sail his fleets away from English borders. I
would bet that Steven is planning to pull Burgundy back (at least try
to) as well. From there, I think we need an official agreement that
there will not be poaching of centers amongst each other until the AIR
has been broken up.
Obviously we all still need our own private lines of communication,
but I think that in general matters that might affect other members of
the alliance should be brought to the entire alliance's attention. This
not only allows for better communication, but adds an extra incentive
for people to keep their words to avoid pissing off three other people
rather than just one.
For my part, I am willing to sail on St. Petersburg this fall,
provided that we have a solid alliance agreement. If we're going to
play this every man for themself, I may come up with other plans. Let
me know what you guys think.
Brent
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:05 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
Ah, now I understand - why mess with Nwy when Ber is free? Clever!
Ordinarily I would disapprove, but given the German's moves, I'd say
he deserves a good spanking. Carry on!
Rod
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:08 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
Keith,
Nice move! You might not get Mun this turn, but you should be able to
force it next year.
Rather than continuing from Mun into Bur, I hope you'll consider
turning against R or I in a year or two. They may become vulnerable
from overextending themselves, and you are very close to leveraging
enough builds to mop up your side of the board.
Good luck!
Rod
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:07 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
Things look rather dire for you in the south. I am optimistic that
EFG will respond to the threat, but I fear that we won't be able to
do enough damage in time to keep you alive. Nevertheless, I wish you
well.
Rod
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:10 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Austria in 'gutsy':
Wow, you guys sure caught everyone off guard there. That was a much
stronger set of moves than anyone was expecting, especially Germany. I
would be angry that my one ally was being attacked, but the shakeup
combined with my lucky guess against Rod has left me in a pretty good
spot. So, my question now is, what part does England have in this new
world order?
Up until now, you and I have mainly been exchanging pleasantries and
basically not discussing anything too important. Now that our moves are
going to affect each other though, I think its time for a bit stronger
lines of communication. As the only one in the West that isn't
immediately threatened by this alliance, I feel that I'm in the best
situation in the West to try to negotiate a part in it.
My initial take on the alliance is that it looks like an AR alliance
that Raine decided to tag along with. He didn't make a strong attack on
France that I would've expected if he was a full member of the alliance,
and he doesn't stand to gain much of anything as a result. On top of
that, my previous dealings with him have left me with the impression
that he thinks too much of his own personal gain to be a strong alliance
player. So, I would be interested in an arrangement that would allow
Italy to be phased out of the alliance a ways into the future, with his
fleets stuck in the Med being replaced by mine which will have access to
the Atlantic. Obviously, thats a ways into the future, but nothing like
laying the groundwork now. Let me know what you think.
Brent
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:12 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
Looks like everything worked. Good job to whomever fooled Germany. It
looks like he was going to attack France. Whom do we have to thank for
that? England? Russia? Italy? All three of you? I had little to say
to Germany, myself.
I have a few suggestions for moves. I would order Aeg-Con, Bul S Aeg-Con,
Gre-Aeg. This way Italy can move Ion-Tys (if France sees AIR, he is going
to react anyway, so you might as well go for it). Also, a good move for
Piedmont may be Pie S Spa-Mar. If I were France, I would bounce Spain and
Gas to Mar so that I could build a fleet in Mar (disbanding London if
necessary). This unwanted support gets them every time. Not only will
Mar be covered, but he will lose Spain as well.
I'll support myself to Munich. At worst, it keeps Germany with the
useless unit in Burgundy. I will try to keep Tyr free of armies so that
Italy will not have to worry so much. Eventually, I can stick my fleet in
Bul/sc. This will prevent any tension between Russia and I. (I'll also
keep an army in Vienna, I think.)
Can we make a deal that you two build fleets and I build an army? This
way I can do the ground work in Germany (and then France when I break
through) while Russia concentrates on the coast, then Scandinavia and
England. Russia could use a Stp/sc fleet I think. Hopefully England
will not object too much.
I am guessing England will move Nth-Lon with support from Yor. This way
he doesn't have to trust Russia at all. It might even be the case that
England and Germany team up against Russia. There is nothing Russia can
do about this. They could take either Swe or Stp. As long as England is
the one who gets the build, though, I think it benefits us in the long
run.
I am still finding myself with free time, so I will be able to negotiate
for a while longer.
Austria
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:15 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> Nice move! You might not get Mun this turn, but you should be able to
> force it next year.
Yes, it looks like Germany tried to attack you. You are lucky that Russia
fooled Germany so badly (or perhaps it was England who fooled him, I don't
know).
> Rather than continuing from Mun into Bur, I hope you'll consider
> turning against R or I in a year or two. They may become vulnerable
> from overextending themselves, and you are very close to leveraging
> enough builds to mop up your side of the board.
Italy is playing it very cautiously, and I would not be surprised if he
delayed his westward movement for a turn or two. Regarless you are
probably worried about it. I'm not really in control of Italy and Russia,
and I feel like I'm along for the ride. I hope I'm making good decisions.
If there is conflict between me and one of my neighbors, I am sure it will
happen suddenly, without warning. I am very paranoid about this, because
it would seem natural for Italy and Russia to try to crush me between
them.
Austria
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:17 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
>Anything you can share with me?
I'm thinking Ruh S Bur-Mun, Bel HOLD, Hol-Kie,
Den S Nwy-Swe, along with Yor-Nth-Nwy, Spa-Mar,
Gas-Mar, Bre-MAO, Lon-ECh, France build F Mar,
England builds A Edi.
>I don't see EF jumping hard on me right away.
No, a WT normally fails in the mid-game, not
in the opening.
>Also, what do you think Raine is up to?
I would guess this is an aggressive AIR with
them splitting their forces between eliminating me
and pushing west. So, we'll see Bul & Bla S Aeg-Con,
Ion-TyS, (or perhaps Tun-Ion-Aeg-Con, but Ion-TyS
would fit the pattern better.
>Any chance you could encourage him into Greece?
I'll try, but I don't see him listening to me.
Eric.
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:18 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to England in 'gutsy':
> Wow, you guys sure caught everyone off guard there. That was a much
> stronger set of moves than anyone was expecting, especially Germany. I
> would be angry that my one ally was being attacked, but the shakeup
> combined with my lucky guess against Rod has left me in a pretty good
> spot. So, my question now is, what part does England have in this new
> world order?
In our discussions, we believed that there was a FG alliance against E.
At least that is what I thought, and no one told me differently. From
what I knew, Germany was the one who offered you Belgium in the Fall but
did not come through. Had I known that Germany would attack France, I
may have moved against Italy or Russia, perhaps with Turkey's help. Well
I think I am stuck with this for now.
You should be a prime beneficiary of all this, in any case. Germany at
least is in some trouble, while France will be at least cautious about
moving any fleets away from Italy.
> My initial take on the alliance is that it looks like an AR alliance
> that Raine decided to tag along with. He didn't make a strong attack on
> France that I would've expected if he was a full member of the alliance,
> and he doesn't stand to gain much of anything as a result. On top of
> that, my previous dealings with him have left me with the impression
> that he thinks too much of his own personal gain to be a strong alliance
> player.
I thought of it as more of an IR alliance. This was the pressure I was
getting. But then you are right that Italy is being cautious. The move
against Germany was a late development, and Italy was not willing to
stick his neck out. He was worried that I would attack him.
> So, I would be interested in an arrangement that would allow
> Italy to be phased out of the alliance a ways into the future, with his
> fleets stuck in the Med being replaced by mine which will have access to
> the Atlantic. Obviously, thats a ways into the future, but nothing like
> laying the groundwork now. Let me know what you think.
It is nice to know that there is a friendly neighbor on the opposite side
of the board. I look forward to the time when our two armies meet,
hopefully in peace. I do not know how long it will be before an
inevitable conflict occurs between me and one of my neighbors (hopefully
not too soon), but I realize that this will occur at some point, and I
will be wary of this.
I am most interested to see what you will do with your Norwegian fleet.
It is of little consequence for me, of course, but this decision will
affect your future relations with Germany and Russia. Difficult
decisions for a single unit (I expect you will retake London with the
other two).
Austria
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:22 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England, France and Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve and Brent have agreed to the WT, what do you say,
Rod?
I'm thinking Ruh S Bur-Mun, Bel HOLD, Hol-Kie,
Den S Nwy-Swe, along with Yor-Nth-Nwy, Spa-Mar,
Gas-Mar, Bre-MAO, Lon-ECh, France build F Mar,
England builds A Edi. Germany and Russia will gain
a Center and lose a Center to remain even, (assuming
I can prevent Russia from gaining a Turkish Center).
How does this sound to you all?
Eric the Target.
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:26 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I am surprised of the RA co-operation. My motivation to move to Pie was to
keep Austria friendly. I promised to leave Tyrolia in fall already but I
bounced in Munich. Austria was suspicious of my goodwill. Like I said in
my previous note I want be a friend to both of you. Austria would have
gone nuts if I had stayed in Tyrolia. I had to choose between Pie and
Ven. I knew that moving to Ven wasn't going make Austria happy. I knew
that moving to Pie will make you unhappy. I chose to move Pie 'cause I
thought that you would understand that I come in peace. Look at my other
moves. I am not after you. I would have moved Nap-Tys, Ion-Tun and Tun-Naf
if I were after you.
> So why cause problems now? Why move to Pie rather than Ven? I fail
> to understand your motivation.
There is no problems. I was afraid of AT alliance. How naive I was. I was
way too paranoid about that. I wanted to show Austria that I am more
worthy as ally than Turkey is. Austria took the advantage and seems to be
allied with Russia.
I tried to make it less dramatic by telling it to you in advance.
I am sorry for the trouble I have caused to you.
Raine
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:27 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
Brent,
Sorry for the slight delay in replying, my
net connection went down for a few hours for
no explicable reason. Nice timing since I'll
also be away from the computer (and using a
horrible modem on a strange machine when I'm
not) for most of this movement phase starting
tommorow afternoon...
> Wow, how come no one invited me to the party? =)
Heh, It's a serach and rescue party. We decided we
didn't need France and Germany taking England out
quite as quickly as it looked like they may.
> Very interesting moves,
> it looks like you've got a bona fide Eastern triple going.
It's early days and right now the interests of Russia, Italy
and Austria are pretty parralel. We'll see how long that lasts
for though. I certainly can't pretend to speak for all of them.
Heck, I can't pretend to speak for either of them, I can barely
speak for myself.
> I haven't heard from him on the
> subject yet, but I'm guessing he's now going to feel a need to pull back
> from France and defend himself.
I would assume so, though it could be worth him taking Par or Mar
if he can get 'em to offset any losses he suffers while he
turns around.
> At this point, I think all the Westerners are in a bit of shock and unsure
> about what they want to do. So let me be the first to offer my services as
> the Triple's ally in the West.
I don't like the talk of Triple's that's going on in broadcast
at the moment, nor indeed talk of strong carebearish alliances
of any kind. They can make you lose focus and start helping
people for the heck of it. That's fine in RL but we're playing
Dip here and if I help someone it's because it's to my advantage
to do so. Ideally you find things that are mutually advantageous
and do those things.
I've even been fighting bitterly with someone on one front
while helping them out on another if it'll also do me some
good on that second front.
Having said that, Italy and Austria agreed with me that it would
be good to get some help from the English, it may even have
been Keith that suggested it, I can't remember.
> I've got good diplomatic
> relations with everyone in the East, I will soon be in a good position to
> take on both France and Germany, and am positioned in the corner so that you
> need not fear me as much and I need not fear you as much.
Exactly. As you say though: 'soon' be in position. We've still got
some Germans between us and anywhere we can usefully cooperate
at the moment, unless you particually want Denmark instead of
London of course. I imagine that France and Germany will both
turn away from you now and leave you plenty of sweet supply
center spots to take your pick from.
> We'd obviously
> need to work out some ground rules so that I can feel that I'm not just
> inviting the three of you in to roll over me next, but I think that can be
> accomplished. Let me know what you think and we can begin negotiations on
> it.
I think that we have many mutual goals and can help each other
achieve them without too much difficulty. I also think that I'm
going to be away from my computer totally and away from the
network quite a lot over this phase so if there's any direct
cooperation we need to get talking about for this fall we
should do it very soon.
Adam........
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:31 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> This is Anschluss? LOL
>
> I'll probably write again soon, but I'm not really sure what to say right
> now. If I think of anything, I'll let you know. :)
I was very surprised to see your move against France. Had I known about
that I would have considered attacking Italy or Russia with Turkey's
help. Oh well I think I am stuck with this for now. I have moved my
units, but I will probably not gain from it right away, which concerns me
a bit.
You expected Russia to move against me? He must be a good liar. Or was
it England? Or Italy? I don't know if I could do that. I am just
wondering why you decided to switch sides so soon after denying England
Belgium.
Looking at the board I think you have some interesting options. You
apparently already have a relationship with England. It will not take too
much resistance or developments elsewhere to make me lose interest in
Munich.
Austria
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:33 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
Well, you've got a choice here. You can rely on
support from Russia AND Austria to get you a build,
and then worry about holding on to it, or you can
order Aeg S Tun-Gre, and gain a Center on your own,
and earn my complete support. What'll it be, Raine?
Sincerely,
Eric.
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:34 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
Unlucky in your moves against England there. I would have
sworn that you'd be in Liverpool at the end of this year
but I guess that's impossible now. Wonder if Brent thought
up those moves by himself or if Steve helped him out?
No doubt you're at least a little glad to see me move towards
Germany - especially as it seems unlikely you invited him into
Bur. I'm not convinced that those in the gallery are right
about the strength of this 'Triple' they're talking about
either for what that's worth. It all felt very last-minute
and unlikely to me right up until (and past, damn fleet I
forgot to order) the deadline.
Did you find everything as surprising as the observers seem
to indicate?
Adam.........
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:48 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I was very surprised to see your move against France.
Yea? LOL, not as surprised as I was by yours. :)
I was concerned Rod would support London into the channel and support Paris
into Burgundy. He could have had three units on Belgium and I would have
been odd man out in the triangle. I really thought we would bounce, but I
figured actually getting in wouldn't be so bad either.
> Oh well I think I am stuck with this for now. I have moved my
> units, but I will probably not gain from it right away, which concerns
> me a bit.
I agree that you won't get Munich for a couple of seasons, but I think you
are in an immensely flexible situation. Everyone thinks you're going after
me, but you could just as easily swing towards Warsaw with boh - sil and
vie - gal. He's pretty stretched out as it is and you know he's not getting
a build this year.
Or you could fake out Raine with tyr - pie, vie - tri, and boh - tyr. You
have a very good chance of taking Venice next year.
> Had I known about that I would have considered attacking Italy
> or Russia with Turkey's help
You still can. :)
> Looking at the board I think you have some interesting options.
> You apparently already have a relationship with England.
Yes, both are true.
> It will not take too much resistance or developments
> elsewhere to make me lose interest in Munich.
That's good to know. If you do lose interest in Munich, please let me know.
I'd hate to concede too much to EF if it isn't necessary.
Please write if you have the chance.
- Steve
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:50 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England,
Germany and Turkey in 'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
> We need to do something fast though
I agree. AIR have a good head start, and we must retaliate swiftly.
> We also need to pick a main target out of the three to try to split
> them up.
Why not work on all of them? Each has a weakness that we can exploit:
> Adam is most likely to get hit by the counterattack
Hit him hard.
> Keith is in the middle, which is
> incredibly dangerous in a three way like this.
Play on those fears, and convince him to stab first. He has a build or two
coming (whether we like it or not), and his new units will not be of much use
against either Germany or Turkey. IR will soon be overextended and become
tempting targets.
> Raine is least likely to gain anything from this.
I'll make sure that he doesn't. :-)
> We also obviously need a Western cease-fire.
Agreed.
> Steve and Brent have agreed to the WT, what do you say, Rod?
I'm in!
> I'm thinking Ruh S Bur-Mun, Bel HOLD, Hol-Kie
These moves are all necessary. The only other option is Pic-Bur, Bur-Ruh,
Ruh-Kie in order to put an army in Kie, but this is likely to lose two centers
to AR this year instead of only one. OTOH, you probably won't be able to
retain Mun after this year anyway. Hol-Kie at least gives you access to Bal
next year, so that's probably the best move.
> Den S Nwy-Swe, along with Yor-Nth-Nwy
Nwy-StP grabs StP while it's free. Swe can be secured any time. Taking StP
now precludes a Russian build there in the event that he gets an extra center
(or disbands Swe instead of retreating). OTOH, your suggestion guarantees that
we get an army in Nwy this turn, even if Swe-Nwy. I'm all in favor of Yor-Nwy,
but if Brent feels he must repatriate Lon this turn, I won't complain.
> Spa-Mar, Gas-Mar
I'm wary of Pie S Spa-Mar. I'll have to out-guess him.
> Bre-MAO, Lon-ECh
Done.
Rod
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:52 2001
Broadcast message [from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France]
in 'gutsy':
This is a test of the emergency broadcast system. This is only a test.
From - Wed Sep 26 17:18:54 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
You've done it now, Eric. The triple is forming (or at least EF claim it
is) and you are included in the press. Well played, my friend. :)
I like your suggested EFG moves and will discuss them openly in the "triple
+ T" forum. I'd like to ask you a favor, though.
Are you willing to point out to Adam that you can destroy the Black Sea this
fall and that his best move is to attack Bulgaria? Failing that, are you
willing to at least point out that he might be able to rebuild his wayward
fleet as an army in Moscow?
That might help me; I'm really not sure. It's hard to know who Keith is
really targetting. He has to know that Munich is a dead-end for him.
- Steve (the other Target)
From - Wed Sep 26 20:29:42 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
Thanks for the explanation.
> Austria took the advantage and seems to be
> allied with Russia.
Does this mean that you will move Pie-Ven? That would allay my concerns and
offer you protection from Austria. He will soon have more units than can be
effectively leveraged against Germany and Turkey, and I fear that you might
make a tempting target.
Rod
From - Wed Sep 26 20:29:43 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Unlucky in your moves against England there.
Indeed. He out-guessed my out-guessing him!
> Did you find everything as surprising as the observers seem
> to indicate?
Yes. This turn was much more eventful than I had anticipated.
Rod
From - Wed Sep 26 20:29:40 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> Italy is playing it very cautiously, and I would not be surprised if he
> delayed his westward movement for a turn or two. Regarless you are
> probably worried about it.
Indeed. He's trying to convince me that his move to Pie was not hostile, but it
annoys me nonetheless. Still, it would take him a while to mount an effective
attack against me.
> I am very paranoid about this, because
> it would seem natural for Italy and Russia to try to crush me between
> them.
Yes - assuming they can leverage the forces to do it. Right now they're not in a
good position to attack you, but if they experience growth then you will certainly
be somewhere on the list of targets.
> If there is conflict between me and one of my neighbors, I am sure it will
> happen suddenly, without warning.
All the more reason for you to strike first. With a couple more armies, you are
capable of hitting either of them hard. The trick is making sure that the other
doesn't come to the rescue.
Rod
From - Wed Sep 26 20:29:44 2001
Broadcast message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France in
'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
Can everybody read this OK? My email client was upgraded today, and I want to
see what happens when I use long lines in my messages. Please let me know if
this looks weird to you, like if the line extends beyond the right edge of your
view and you have to scroll horizontally to see it, or if the line is wrapped
with weird stuff at the end of each line. Thanks!
Rod
From - Wed Sep 26 20:29:45 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
No problem with the broadcast here, Rod.
- Steve
From - Wed Sep 26 20:29:47 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England, France and Turkey in
'gutsy':
First off, thank you all for considering the triple, particularly Rod after
my silly wine-tasting trip into Burgundy. It's good to know I have you at
my back...err...your support is appreciated. :)
LOL. No matter what happens here, please understand that I *am* having fun.
I hope you all are as well. :)
I like Eric's suggestions and I also agree with many of Rod and Brent's
comments. Here are my thoughts:
> Why not work on all of them? Each has a weakness that we can exploit:
Yes, I agree. Adam can lose the Black Sea and Sweden. If I were him, I
would not consider gaining Berlin an equal trade. With a little press, he
might order bla - bul and rum s bla - bul. His other weakness is that he is
already being strung out by Keith. And Sweden, an obvious weakness.
Keith's weakness is that his tactical goals are so obvious. The primary
reason he moved on Munich is that it is his 18th center (#17 is Tunis; he
doesn't care about StPete and doesn't need Berlin). I've seen Keith play
Austria a bunch of times before; I should have seen this coming. His other
weakness is that he is exposed in both Bulgaria and Greece.
Raine also has a weakness, mainly that he needs a fifth center to build a
defense for Venice. With a little press, he might support himself into
Greece.
> Nwy-StP grabs StP while it's free. Swe can be secured any time.
I agree. I know the army in Norway would hurt Adam hard, but if London is
really moving to the channel, yor- lon and nwy - stp gets Brent two builds
and Rod and I stay even. That's 5-5-5 after two years. Pretty well
balanced and you (EF that is) still have me hostage. I make a good hostage.
:)
I hope to talk with you all some more. Good luck with your negotiations.
- Steve
From - Thu Sep 27 16:57:38 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
What do you think of that? I go dancing my way into Burgundy only to find
Austrian and Russian forces following me. If I didn't love playing
Diplomacy so much, I'd be pretty angry. LOL. :)
I have a favor to ask, my friend. Are you willing to attack Greece? That
would definitely help me out.
Write when you can; we have lots of time to talk before the next moves.
Thanks for moving to Piedmont, by the way, but now I just wish you had held
in Tyrolia. :)
- Steve
From - Thu Sep 27 16:57:40 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
[I don't like the talk of Triple's that's going on in broadcast
at the moment]
Well, as you notice, my press was sent before any of the broadcasts
started flying, so I reached that conclusion on my own. I don't agree with
your insinuation that a triple is necessarily a carebear alliance, or with
the insinuation that carebearism is something to be hated. Personally I
play this game for fun, and I've often felt it more fun to have lots of
friends than lots of centers. My rating shows that the two don't
necessarily have to be exclusive.
[I help someone it's because it's to my advantage to do so]
Gee, and I was thinking you organized this whole alliance just because you
liked me and didn't want to see me eliminated... =)
[I imagine that France and Germany will both
turn away from you now and leave you plenty of sweet supply
center spots to take your pick from.]
That seems to be the plan. Whether you see it as a triple or not, the
people who aren't in it certainly do, and that invokes a very strong
reaction. Its nice to finally have some bargaining ground with both of
them.
Anyways, you're right in thinking there isn't a whole lot we can cooperate
on right now, since I've got a capital to retake. The best thing you could
do for me is make the North safe so that I can continue hunting in the West.
Perhaps we can work out some sort of bounce that would allow both of us to
feel safe without having to add any more units to the region? Let me know
what you think.
Brent
From - Thu Sep 27 16:57:44 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
[And here I thought you were going to say that you orchestrated the
whole thing. :-)]
Orchestrated is such a strong word... And besides, would I tell if I had?
;-)
[Absolutely. A wealth of new possibilities has opened up. Good thing
we've maintained "friendly" relations all this time, eh? ;-)]
Yah, I'm sure I'll remember your "friendliness" the next time I find one
of my units sitting outside an undefended French home center. Just kidding.
I think we did fairly well, considering the circumstances, though I still
think we would've been better off proceeding with the original plan rather
than being forced to take this roundabout way.
[It's clear that I have nothing to gain from attacking you. I can
neither keep Lon nor gain Lvp - thanks to your clever bounces. :-)
Good move!]
Thanks. I had to decide whether to take a chance this turn, or be left
with a 50/50 next turn. I decided it would be best for everyone if the
outcome were clear before the Fall turn. Luckily I got the outcome I was
looking for.
[Either way, I'll move Lon-Eng, Bre-MAO.]
Good, I plan to only move one unit to London (sorry, can't allow you to
keep it). Knowing this, you could of course remain and bounce me. But you
know that I'll be getting a build anyway, and doing so would make me
supremely unhappy, so I trust you'll think better.
More in the joint discussions...
Brent
From - Thu Sep 27 16:57:46 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
I appreciate your move to Piedmont. Its had the desired effect, combined
with my moves to defend my home centers, Rod's discovered that attacking me
is getting him nowhere.
I do think you made a rather large mistake though. By splitting your
forces between the East and the West, you've succeeded in making two enemies
without really making any friends (other than me) or any strong gains for
yourself. France is going to be turning to defend the Med, and you're going
to have fleets poking around in the East. And at best you're going to get
one Turkish center, which can easily be gobbled up by the AR alliance.
So, I'm interested in where you plan to go from here. I will be booting
France out of London, so you don't have to worry about him building, but I
can pretty much guarantee you will have two fleets headed your way soon. It
will take more than just Smyrna if you want to be able to win the battle
with him rather than just survive it. Any ideas?
Brent
From - Thu Sep 27 16:57:47 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Austria in 'gutsy':
[In our discussions, we believed that there was a FG alliance against E.
At least that is what I thought, and no one told me differently.]
That did appear to be the case. However, I'd been working on Germany for
quite a while, and it seems I'd finally gotten him to come around. Sorry
that you weren't informed of that turn in events, but I didn't really know
about it myself until I got the results!
[Had I known that Germany would attack France, I
may have moved against Italy or Russia, perhaps with Turkey's help. Well
I think I am stuck with this for now.]
Maybe, though I'm sure Eric is dying for a friend right now (no pun
intended). How difficult would it be to slip in behind either of the other
two? I guess the question is, is it really worth it at this point. My gut
feeling would be no.
[I thought of it as more of an IR alliance. This was the pressure I was
getting.]
Interesting, as I would think this would be even more reason to side with
someone else. After all, you're going to end up in between the two of them
when this is over. If this is really their alliance, that isn't such a
great position for you to be in.
[I am most interested to see what you will do with your Norwegian fleet.
It is of little consequence for me, of course, but this decision will
affect your future relations with Germany and Russia. ]
I can tell you that one little fleet has gotten a lot of offers so far.
Its most crucial duty is to defend Norway, as I need to hold it to get my
build. However, if something could be arranged so that holding Norway
wasn't such a big concern, I could see other uses for it. Right now I'm
just going to see what kind of offers I end up with.
[It is nice to know that there is a friendly neighbor on the opposite side
of the board. ]
Of course, and don't hesitate to come to me if you are curious about whats
going on elsewhere in the world. Right now the AIR alliance is on
everyone's mind, and both France and Germany claim to be ready to pull back
and face the charge. Sounds good to me... =)
Brent
From - Thu Sep 27 16:57:49 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France, Germany and Turkey in
'gutsy':
Alright, my moves are pretty much set then. Yor - Lon, Nth - Nwy, Nwy -
StP. Now that we've got the tactics pretty much down, we've got quite a
while to talk about the diplomatic side of things.
My initial queries have yielded a claim from Kieth that this is an IR
alliance he is tagging along with, and a claim from Adam that this isn't an
alliance at all, just some people who happen to have common goals. I
haven't heard from Raine yet.
Following the general consensus, I've started trying to sow the seeds of
doubt with all three of them. Of the four of us, I (and probably Rod) have
the best chance of influencing them, since the attack was in part to "save"
me, and I'm on pretty good terms with the three culprits. If I get a sense
for any weak points that we can take advantage of, I'll be sure to let
everyone know.
Finally, hang in there Eric. I have faith that you can rise again, just
as the English have done!
Brent
From - Thu Sep 27 16:57:51 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
I agree with your assessment of the situation. Unfortunately I will not
be able to alert you in advance if I decide not to attack you. This
would mean I would be attacking someone else, and surprise would be of
the essence. Hopefully in this situation the fact that I am not
attacking you will offset the feeling that you could have done something
more productive if you had only known.
Austria
From - Thu Sep 27 16:57:53 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to England in 'gutsy':
Hi, I was glad to receive your last message, but I am somewhat confused.
In it, you seemed to be encouraging me to attack one of my neighbors.
But, this would mean that the pressure would be off either France or
Germany. Wouldn't this be bad for you? I am just trying to figure out
what your motivation is.
Austria
From - Thu Sep 27 16:58:02 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
> Can everybody read this OK? My email client was upgraded today, and I
want to see what happens when I use long lines in my messages. Please let
me know if this looks weird to you, like if the line extends beyond the
right edge of your view and you have
> to scroll horizontally to see it, or if the line is wrapped with weird
stuff at the end of each line. Thanks!
>
It looked fine in Win98-Outlook Express. It even replied fairly cleanly.
Eric.
From - Thu Sep 27 16:58:10 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
>Broadcast message from France in 'gutsy':
>
>Can everybody read this OK?
Ok in Hotmail, too.
E.
From - Thu Sep 27 16:58:24 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England, France and Germany
in 'gutsy':
Brent Wrote >
> Following the general consensus, I've started trying to sow the seeds of
> doubt with all three of them. Of the four of us, I (and probably Rod)
have
> the best chance of influencing them, since the attack was in part to
"save"
> me, and I'm on pretty good terms with the three culprits. If I get a
sense
> for any weak points that we can take advantage of, I'll be sure to let
> everyone know.
I would suggest that everyone focus on Raine and Adam to encourage them
to take Gre and Ser/Bud. Keith, by himself, does not represent a major
threat
to me, and he is most exposed to the Triple collapse.
On the subject of Yor-Nwy vs. Nwy-StP, Adam can ignore EF StP/NC
since it threatens nothing else. If England move Nwy-Swe, and Yor-Nth-Nwy,
AND builds Army Edinburgh, on the other hand, that represents a HUGE
threat to Russia. Those moves can be followed with Edi-Nth-Nwy, Nwy-Fin,
and a supported Army attack on StP next Fall, which, in turn, threatens Mos.
I understand the desire to retake London, but doing it this Fall, instead of
next
Fall, blunts the attack on Russia to the point where he can ignore it, and
is likely
to result in me being overwhelmed.
Eric the Tactician. ;^}
From - Thu Sep 27 16:58:39 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
From: This year's target
To: Next year's target
Subject: Is this a Problem, or an Opportunity?
Hi Adam,
Do you recall how I mentioned the way people over-react to the
Juggernaut?
Well, I forgot to mention that the only thing that generate a bigger
reaction is a
Triple Alliance that crosses the East-West neutral zone, and threatens to
cross
the stalemate line early. 8-) You just asked for a world of hurt from EG,
my
friend.
Now, the question is, what can you do about it? You'll take Berlin this
Fall,
(I hope, supporting Austria to Mun would be foolish.), but will lose Sweden,
in
response. You can't take a Center from me without support from Raine AND
Adam, and I don't see Raine supporting you into Con, when it's his best
chance
for a build. So, how can you get a build to defend your Northern Centers?
Rum-Ser/Bud, or Rum S Bla-Bul/EC seem like your only hope. What do you
think?
Eric the (temporary) Target.
From - Thu Sep 27 16:58:56 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria and Italy in 'gutsy':
> Looks like everything worked. Good job to whomever fooled Germany. It
> looks like he was going to attack France. Whom do we have to thank for
> that? England? Russia? Italy? All three of you? I had little to say
> to Germany, myself.
I guess me and Raine between us got him. He pressed me at a fairly
last minute asking what I thought Raine would do. I didn't even
have to lie when I told him that Raine was going south.
We had everyone fooled by the look of it, but they're all alert
now. I think we can expect a fairly united front from Germany
and France. England says that he's got some bargining power
now and he offered his "Services as the Tripple's ally in the
West" - that was before even all the broadcast talk. I don't
think we're going to be able to fool anyone anymore anyway.
I'm trying to play down the loyalty we have to each other,
saying that one mutually advantageous move doesn't make
an unbreakable carebear alliance but I don't think anyone's
taking any notice of me.
> I have a few suggestions for moves. I would order Aeg-Con, Bul S Aeg-Con,
> Gre-Aeg. This way Italy can move Ion-Tys (if France sees AIR, he is going
> to react anyway, so you might as well go for it).
I agree that it looks like France is going to react. We've saved
England already by the look of it, they're comming after us!
I have noticed that there's some chance Eric will order
F Ank S F Con - Bla. He knows Con is doomed anyway now and
from his past record is more likely to attack me than
defend against you two. There is a way to stop my F Bla
being destroyed however. A Bul, F Aeg S F Bla - Con.
I don't paricually want Con and would slide on over to
Ank as soon as possible but it's worth a thought. If
we did that then I'd support Keith into Mun and suggest
that Italy takes Gre. I suppose it depends on how important
we think F Bla is to finishing off Eric.
> Also, a good move for
> Piedmont may be Pie S Spa-Mar. If I were France, I would bounce Spain and
> Gas to Mar so that I could build a fleet in Mar (disbanding London if
> necessary). This unwanted support gets them every time. Not only will
> Mar be covered, but he will lose Spain as well.
It's a good bet and taking Mar seems pretty unlikely so it's
worth a try. The only caution is that France isn't gonig to be
expecting a build at all, he'll loose Lon this fall, so there's
no reason to leave Mar open really.
> Can we make a deal that you two build fleets and I build an army? This
> way I can do the ground work in Germany (and then France when I break
> through) while Russia concentrates on the coast, then Scandinavia and
> England. Russia could use a Stp/sc fleet I think. Hopefully England
> will not object too much.
If you mean just for this year even then it'll be an akward thing
to agree to. Unless we put F Bla in Con I expect it to be destroyed
and with the gain in Berlin I'd have two builds and only one coast
to put them on. I like it in principle though.
> It might even be the case that
> England and Germany team up against Russia. There is nothing Russia can
> do about this. They could take either Swe or Stp. As long as England is
> the one who gets the build, though, I think it benefits us in the long
> run.
Brent has asked if there's some bounce we can find that will keep
us both safe. If he's on Germany's side then clearly the answer
is basically no but I could try F Swe - Nwy I suppose, that should
keep StP safe from England on his own at least, assuming he takes
Lon back.
> I am still finding myself with free time, so I will be able to negotiate
> for a while longer.
Whereas I'm just preparing to leave for Birmingham so my press
will have to be short and infrequent from now on. I would have
written yesterday but there were some network problems. The
press I did sent wasn't getting out for a few hours anyway.
Adam.........
From - Thu Sep 27 16:59:17 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Everyone's reacting to this 'tripple' think like it's
the end of the world. Makes us quite a target. I wonder
though if Austria isn't very exposed to us right now
if we played our cards right.
You could take Gre with no problems at all using
A tun - Ion - Gre and Aeg support. I could slip
A Rum into Ser or Bud, and move Sil to Gal with
support from War. Austria is down one, we're
up one each and we still have Turkey on only
three centers.
It's probably a little early to stab Austria as
we'd planned, but I'm not sure we're likely to get
a better chance and we would stop the unification of
the West against us.
Quick center count for the end of 1902 if we did this:
Italy+Russia: 12
Turkey+Austria: 7
I think we should still be able to take them both at
once if we stab and I repeat: I don't think we'll get
a better opportunity.
I'm gonig to find it hard to write press during the next
few days since I'll be at my folks house and net access
is limited. Even to get that I'd have to throw my dad
off his computer. We still have plenty of time, I'm not
away alltogether, but we need to make sure our press
has all the details, there won't be a great deal of
quick-short note passing.
What do you think? Time to stab Austria? I suspect it
is. We won't get a better oppertunity, France and Germany
and England are in confusion already, Turkey is ALMOST
gone like we wanted. The timing looks right but I certainly
won't do anything about it without you.
Adam........
From - Thu Sep 27 16:59:25 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> Do you recall how I mentioned the way people over-react to the
> Juggernaut?
> Well, I forgot to mention that the only thing that generate a bigger
> reaction is a
> Triple Alliance that crosses the East-West neutral zone, and threatens to
> cross
> the stalemate line early. 8-) You just asked for a world of hurt from EG,
> my
> friend.
Yeah, it's begining to look a lot like we've stopped the
squabbling in the West which was our intention but I don't
think I expected quite this much fear. It's only been one
move, everyone else is more convinced there's a strong
tripple alliance than I am!
> Now, the question is, what can you do about it? You'll take Berlin this
> Fall, (I hope, supporting Austria to Mun would be foolish.), but will
> lose Sweden, in response. You can't take a Center from me without
> support from Raine AND Adam,
I don't think getting support from Adam would be too hard.
Oh, you mean Keith.
> and I don't see Raine supporting you into Con, when it's his best
> chance for a build. So, how can you get a build to defend your
> Northern Centers?
> Rum-Ser/Bud, or Rum S Bla-Bul/EC seem like your only hope.
Oh, pretty. Steve has suggested something along similar lines.
> What do you think?
I think I'll have to spend more time on press than I'd hoped
and that I'll have to talk to Raine. I'm definately not
doing it without support. Also, if I get a hint that Keith
suspects I'll call the whole thing off and blame you for
a leak of course.
I'm off to Birmingham to stay with my folks for a long weeked
in a couple of hours. They have net access, but it's a modem
and it depresses me to use it, plus I'll be quite busy going
to see gigs and films and pubs and whatnot but I'll try to
stay in touch as much as possible.
Adam........
From - Thu Sep 27 16:59:39 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Wow, you certainly got my attention. I did not expect that in the least;
> well played.
Thank you, I'm surprised at how well it worked to be honest.
> I know you can just jump right into Berlin, but I'd like to suggest that
> would not be your best move. You expected me to say that, right? :)
I did. What I didn't expect was how tempting and pretty your
alternative would look:
> Right now, you have an excellent opportunity to make some serious headway
> into Austria. You could support Black into Bulgaria and Silesia back into
> Galicia. That almost guarantees you Budapest next year.
Or slip Rum into Ser or Bud. Ser most likely, Keith might
cover Bud just for the hell of it.
> Plus, I'm almost positive Raine will attack Greece. That is definitely
> where he wants to be. That means you would still get a build if Brent and I
> let you alone
As I said, very tempting indeed. As I mentioned in press to
you (the network was playing up, you would have recieved it
late, if at all) I was convinced you were going to side with
France and that scared me a little so I allowed myself to
be convinced into the moves you saw. It seems I was wrong,
your moves were definately pro-english.
If I agreed to do this then obviously I'd need your
confidentiality. Not even Brent or Raine should be
told what's going on by you. And I'd need you to agree
to leave my lovely Swe alone.
> (otherwise it's just going to be destroyed and Sev will be threatened. At
> the same time you could support Silesia back into Galicia. That almost
> guarantees you Budapest next year.
It doesn't have to be destroyed if I work with Raine and Keith
of course, they could support me into Con while I gave Keith
Munich and Keith gave Raine Gre. One build each still and
F Bla survives to fight another day.
> Meanwhile, I expect Raine to attack Greece and cover Venice. And, I'm
> pretty sure Brent doesn't want to piss you off while France is still a
> threat.
I find your solution to our problems strangely compelling.
I can't promise anything until I have talked more to the
parties concerned and talking is going to be akward this
year since I'm off to Birmingham for a long weekend in a
couple of hours and net-access will involve throwing my
dad off of his computer and a dial-up per-second change
to boot. I'll try hard to stay in touch though.
If I were to agree, you'd still have to cover Munich of
course. I don't know. Can you trust me enough to leave
Swe alone if I agree?
Adam.........
From - Thu Sep 27 16:59:52 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> Ah, now I understand - why mess with Nwy when Ber is free? Clever!
We seem to have surprised everyone, including myself.
> Ordinarily I would disapprove, but given the German's moves, I'd say
> he deserves a good spanking. Carry on!
His moves were fairly surprising too weren't they. I
guess we've given you a perfect excuse to talk him
back out of your country though.
Your broadcast was one long line and one shorter one
on my email client by the way. Looks like it did insert
a but not until about the 200 (255th?) character.
Of course I use Mutt so the lines wrap automatically anyway
with a little + symbol to indicate what's happened.
Adam........
From - Thu Sep 27 16:59:56 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
> Well, as you notice, my press was sent before any of the broadcasts
> started flying, so I reached that conclusion on my own.
My network connection was screwy yesterday. My email was
taking over an hour to get out and the connection was
completely dropped for a few hours there too. I have no
idea what order most of the press was sent. Its' not
too hard a thing to figure out AIR were talking a lot
though.
> I don't agree with
> your insinuation that a triple is necessarily a carebear alliance, or with
> the insinuation that carebearism is something to be hated.
I'd agree with your refutation of the first point but not
the second. Well, hated is the wrong word. Exploited sounds
closer to the mark. :)
> Gee, and I was thinking you organized this whole alliance just
> because you liked me and didn't want to see me eliminated... =)
I'm not really sure who organised it to be honest. I think
it just grew out of a list of things we all wanted to
achieve and it seemed the best way to achieve them. It
organised itself.
> That seems to be the plan. Whether you see it as a triple or not, the
> people who aren't in it certainly do, and that invokes a very strong
> reaction. Its nice to finally have some bargaining ground with both of
> them.
I'm pleased to have finally found something that scares
the rest of the board more than a Juggernaught does.
I guess we've thrown a big spanner in the path everyone
was expecting the game to go. The main question is,
where do we go from here?
> Anyways, you're right in thinking there isn't a whole lot we can cooperate
> on right now, since I've got a capital to retake. The best thing you could
> do for me is make the North safe so that I can continue hunting in the West.
The north certainly isn't safe at the moment, glad you've noticed
and decided to bring that up with me rather than Steve.
> Perhaps we can work out some sort of bounce that would allow both of us to
> feel safe without having to add any more units to the region? Let me know
> what you think.
That would be ideal, but I can't really see one that fits the
bill unfortunately. Assuming you and Steve don't support each
other into Swe (there's nothing I could do about that anyway,
other than retreat to Ska and use the unit to Worry you like
a dog worries sheep) I could order F Swe - Nwy which would
mean I took Norway if you took StP. That won't last once
London is taken back and Nth (or Nwg) can bounce Nwy anyway.
I'll probably order F Swe - Nth this fall though. Hopefully
I can trust you not to take Swe from me with Steve just
because you want to be the Western power who helps us
out.
Is Steve offering you Swe? I think I would be. I'd be
very tempted to take it if I were you too. I guess
all I can do is plead and offer you Denmark when the
time comes.
I'll be hard to reply to press for the next couple of
days since I'm away for a long weekend starting in
a couple of hours. I'll have access to a computer but
only on a slow modem and only occasionally when I can
force my father out of the seat in front of the monitor.
I'll definately say in touch as much as possible though.
Adam........
From - Thu Sep 27 17:00:11 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
>Message from Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
>It's only been one move, everyone else is more convinced there's a strong
>triple alliance than I am!
Well, War-Sil, Mos-War, Vie-Boh, Tri-Tyl, Bud-Vie,
Tyl-Pie, certainly looks like a major western push.
I suspect Raine's move was just a response to, a "Get
away from Tri, or I won't support you into Con."
message from Keith, but the entire move set looks as
threatening as hell to Steve and I.
>I'll have to talk to Raine. I'm definately not
>doing it without support. If I get a hint that Keith
>suspects I'll call the whole thing off and blame you
I already pointed out to Raine that he won't
get a build from me without support from you and
Keith, while he can take Greece on his own... 8-)
If you mention that possibility, combined with
your attack on Serbia, he might go for it.
>I'm off to Birmingham to stay with my folks for a long weeked in a couple
>of hours.
Enjoy! I'll be around, if you want to bounce
ideas off me.
Eric.
From - Thu Sep 27 17:00:14 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Austria in 'gutsy':
[In it, you seemed to be encouraging me to attack one of my neighbors.]
Not really encouraging, just discussing possibilities. Like I said, its a
matter of whether it would be worthwhile for you to turn on them now, and I
don't know that it would be. But I do think that you'd end up sandwiched
between them after a while, so its probably going to have to happen sooner
rather than later.
[But, this would mean that the pressure would be off either France or
Germany. Wouldn't this be bad for you?]
Well, as you noticed, Germany had really been on my side already, so
relieving pressure on him wouldn't be such a bad thing in my opinion. And
as for France, he's really lost his advantage on me now. I can regain
London, pick up a build, and be ready to defend myself from him. I do still
appreciate any pressure that keeps him looking elsewhere though.
For the most part, I was trying to look at things from your perspective.
If I can get a clearer understanding of what your goals and options are,
that gives me a better chance of finding meaningful ways to cooperate with
you. Sorry for the confusion.
Brent
From - Thu Sep 27 17:00:27 2001
Broadcast message from bwarner34 at home.com as England in 'gutsy':
This is a general note to all players, observers, and you too Roger. As
most of you know, I'm the master in the game teachme2, where inexperienced
players are paired up with experienced coaches. The game is currently at
S1906M, with no country having been eliminated yet. However, one of the
players has been abandoned by his coach and would like a new one. So if any
of you out there feel that you have enough experience that you could help
lend a hand, please let me know.
The job shouldn't be much of a time commitment at this point. You will be
able to read all incoming and outgoing press for your power. You can send
partial press to your power with any sort of suggestions, comments, etc.
that you have. The player can also ask you questions. You do not write any
press to others or orders, that is the players job. At this point in the
game, what the player really wants is someone that can give him some
feedback on his style and answer a few questions for him.
If you want more info on the game, or are interested in joining, let me
know in a private message. The game is gunboat to keep the coaches'
identities from playing too big of a part in the game, and some of the
participants in that game are also involved in this one, so no broadcasts.
Thanks to anyone who can volunteer!
Brent
From - Thu Sep 27 17:00:34 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England, France and Turkey in
'gutsy':
Just a follow-up on Brent and Eric's discussion:
Eric said:
> On the subject of Yor-Nwy vs. Nwy-StP, Adam can ignore EF
> StP/NC since it threatens nothing else.
Yes, I agree that Adam can ignore St Pete, but what's most important is that
he becomes more stretched out. That's the best way to break AR.
Assuming he doesn't stab Austria and he does take Berlin, he would have
three (!) centers (Sweden, Berlin, and Warsaw) that he cannot self-support.
That's a terrible position to be in. In effect, he would be like four
little fiefdoms stretched from the Black Sea to Sweden.
Taking Sweden this fall only allows him to consolidate. Waiting a turn
still allows Brent to slip the army into StP next year (nwy - fin, stp - bar
followed by a supported attack back into StP *or* an attack on Sweden. I
think it was Rod who said Sweden could be picked up any time. That's the
way I'm thinking.
Bottom line, I like the orders Brent suggested.
That's about it.
- Steve
From - Thu Sep 27 17:00:45 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
I like high rated games 'cause people do not stop talking someone when he
moves the way he is not supposed to move.
> Well, you've got a choice here. You can rely on
> support from Russia AND Austria to get you a build,
> and then worry about holding on to it, or you can
> order Aeg S Tun-Gre, and gain a Center on your own,
> and earn my complete support. What'll it be, Raine?
Eric, I do not like these AIR triple alliance talks. It certainly looks
like that. I was so sure that there was AT alliance :-) I am too paranoid,
'finished with my woman; 'cause she couldn't help me with my mind', do you
reckognize the song?
The move to Pie was my effort to give you hope that I am serious about
TIE. I know it ain't much but nevertheless. I was childishly angry to you
when you moved to Syr. I am sorry about that. That made me to move to
Aeg+Ion.
I am seriously thinking about Greece now. If all the others get fooled
that there is AIR it means that I will face the French attack. My move to
Pie is not helping me to explain to Rod that I was just trying to get
Austria on my side. Keith has turned his 'silence' to a miraculous
alliance with Russia. Keith is safe in between RI if all the others start
to attack against the assumed AIR triple alliance. Wow, Keith is really a
true diplomacy player.
I am open to your suggestions.
Yours,
Raine
From - Thu Sep 27 17:00:48 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
I'd like to talk a bit about the triple and what you see as the biggest
risks, both for me and for you. Obviously, the bulk of my private press has
been directed at Raine, Keith, and Adam. I sometimes spend more time
talking to my enemies than my friends. But, now, I think you and I should
talk about how EG fits into the triple.
I've never seen it played successfully, that is to say, where it ends as an
EFG draw (if that's how you define success). What I have seen though, is
France stomp through Italy and England swoop into Russia, but Germany
hitting the wall in Vienna, never really getting much further. From my
perspective, the biggest problem with the triple for Germany is that Austria
benefits from the attacks on Italy and Russia more than it suffers from the
attacks from Germany. Does that make sense?
I know I have a couple of other issues to resolve (read: Silesia!), but I'd
like to talk a bit when you have the chance.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Thu Sep 27 17:00:53 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
> I agree that it looks like France is going to react. We've saved
> England already by the look of it, they're comming after us!
> I have noticed that there's some chance Eric will order
> F Ank S F Con - Bla. He knows Con is doomed anyway now and
> from his past record is more likely to attack me than
> defend against you two. There is a way to stop my F Bla
> being destroyed however. A Bul, F Aeg S F Bla - Con.
> I don't paricually want Con and would slide on over to
> Ank as soon as possible but it's worth a thought. If
> we did that then I'd support Keith into Mun and suggest
> that Italy takes Gre. I suppose it depends on how important
> we think F Bla is to finishing off Eric.
It doesn't matter to me. Whatever you two decide. The only factor is
that I think it would be best if Italy moved Ion-Tys. You can move
Rum-Ukr or something to provide yourself a retreat route. Turkey's going
to have to disband something, and his being in Bla shouldn't be a problem.
> > Also, a good move for
> > Piedmont may be Pie S Spa-Mar. If I were France, I would bounce Spain and
> > Gas to Mar so that I could build a fleet in Mar (disbanding London if
> > necessary). This unwanted support gets them every time. Not only will
> > Mar be covered, but he will lose Spain as well.
>
> It's a good bet and taking Mar seems pretty unlikely so it's
> worth a try. The only caution is that France isn't gonig to be
> expecting a build at all, he'll loose Lon this fall, so there's
> no reason to leave Mar open really.
I am expecting that France would disband his London fleet to rebuild it.
This sort of retreat through building is very fast.
> If you mean just for this year even then it'll be an akward thing
> to agree to. Unless we put F Bla in Con I expect it to be destroyed
> and with the gain in Berlin I'd have two builds and only one coast
> to put them on. I like it in principle though.
I don't think that you will get two builds. England and Germany were
already cooperating, so I think they will work to take either Stp or
Swe. Plus, you can leave yourself a retreat option for Bla.
Austria
From - Thu Sep 27 17:01:01 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England, France and Germany in
'gutsy':
>Message from Germany to England, France and Turkey
>
>Just a follow-up on Brent and Eric's discussion:
>
>Eric said:
> > On the subject of Yor-Nwy vs. Nwy-StP, Adam can > ignore EF StP/NC since
>it threatens nothing else.
>
>Yes, I agree that Adam can ignore St Pete, but what's most important is
>that he becomes more stretched out.
I'll grant you that this is a personal
perspective, but I think it's more important to force
him to pull Armies East and North to defend his Home
Centers, rather than allowing him to think he can make
up for the one Center loss by taking German or Turkish
Centers.
>Rod said Sweden could be picked up any time. That's the way I'm thinking.
Oh, I agree, I just think getting A Yor-Nwy is
vital this Fall, to pressure StP, and Nwy-Stp,
Yor-Nwy could run afoul of Swe-Nwy, so Nwy-Swe makes
more sense to me.
Eric.
From - Thu Sep 27 17:01:03 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> though I still think we would've been better off proceeding with
> the original plan rather than being forced to take this roundabout way.
Hindsight is 20/20, eh?
> But you know that I'll be getting a build anyway....
And I don't want to give you any reason for it to be F Lvp! :-)
Rod
From - Thu Sep 27 17:01:05 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England,
Germany and Turkey in 'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
> My initial queries have yielded a claim from Kieth that this is an IR
> alliance he is tagging along with, and a claim from Adam that this isn't an
> alliance at all, just some people who happen to have common goals. I
> haven't heard from Raine yet.
Adam said that it just came together at the last minute (i.e., not well organized).
Raine claims it's an RA alliance and he moved to Pie only to placate Austria.
Keith purports to fear becoming a victim of IR.
I get the impression that each is not fully forthcoming. I suspect they're just
telling us what they think we want to hear. Regardless, our strategy for breaking
them apart doesn't change. Whether they're allied firmly or loosely, our job is
the same.
Rod
From - Thu Sep 27 17:01:08 2001
Broadcast message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France in
'gutsy':
Many thanks to those who gave feedback on the formatting of my last broadcast.
The consensus is that the lines are indeed very long, but everyone can read it
just fine, because your email client automatically wraps it.
Rod
From - Thu Sep 27 17:01:11 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
>I like high rated games 'cause people do not stop talking someone when he
>moves the way he is not supposed to move.
("...stop talking to someone...")
If you stop talking, you lose the chance to
change someone's course of action.
>Eric, I do not like these AIR triple alliance talks. It certainly looks
>like that.
Feel free to prove appearances wrong by attacking
Austria. 8-)
>I was so sure that there was AT alliance :-)
I offered Keith Rum, he decided Adam made the
better offer.
>I am seriously thinking about Greece now. If all the others think that
>there is AIR it means that I will face the French attack. My move to Pie is
>not helping me to explain to Rod that I was just trying to get Austria on
>my side.
If you take Gre, and order Pie-Ven, Rod has no
reason to attack you, and probably won't want to
shift to do so, given the EG moves this Spring.
>Keith is safe in between RI if all the others start
>to attack against the assumed AIR triple alliance. Wow, Keith is really a
>true diplomacy player.
Yes, but if you and/or Adam stab Keith this Fall,
the western response to AIR will collapse.
>I am open to your suggestions.
I'd suggest that you take Greece, and move
Pie-Ven, and try to get Adam to stab Austria, as
well. (I'll certainly be working on him. 8-)
Eric.
From - Thu Sep 27 17:01:14 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England, France and Germany in
'gutsy':
>Message from France to England, Germany and Turkey:
> > My initial queries have yielded a claim from > Kieth that this is an IR
>alliance he is tagging > along with, and a claim from Adam that this isn't
> > an alliance at all,
>Adam said that it just came together at the last minute Raine claims it's
>an RA alliance and he moved to Pie only to placate Austria.
>Keith purports to fear becoming a victim of IR.
Yet he turns down my offer of support into Rum,
accepts Russian support into Bul, and orders, Vie-Boh,
Bud-Vie, Tri-Tyl? *cough, bullshit, cough*
>I get the impression that each is not fully forthcoming. Whether they're
>allied firmly or loosely, our job is the same.
Yes, listen to the press, but judge the moves.
The moves say strong AR with cooperation from I, at
the very least. Raine and Adam both claim to be
considering stabbing Austria.
Eric.
From - Thu Sep 27 17:01:16 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I agree with your assessment of the situation.
Thanks, I believe we think alike when it comes to tactical situations. The
only other thing I'll add is that Russia's coverage is getting way too thin.
Assuming he loses St Pete and takes Berlin, he will have three(!) centers
which he is unable to support by himself (Sweden, Berlin, and Warsaw). That
means you probably *want* him in Berlin, but you don't want to be dragged in
too.
My only advice is don't get stretched out yourself. Now more than ever I
value a strong Austria. :)
I would have no problem with you encouraging him into Berlin as long as you
then move away from Munich.
> Unfortunately I will not be able to alert you in advance if I decide not
to attack you.
That's fair; I understand fully. I just don't want to be in a position
where I've thrown my force against you and Adam only to lose my neutrals to
Rod and Brent. That would solidify EF and leave both of us out in the cold.
> This would mean I would be attacking someone else, and surprise would
> be of the essence. Hopefully in this situation the fact that I am not
> attacking you will offset the feeling that you could have done something
> more productive if you had only known.
You are quite right. Obviously, I would would like to know...but I like not
being attacked more.
There's a lot of talk among EFG right now. If there's something I should
know, please write. Thanks.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Thu Sep 27 20:03:54 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England, France and Turkey in
'gutsy':
> Yet he turns down my offer of support into Rum,
> accepts Russian support into Bul, and orders, Vie-Boh,
> Bud-Vie, Tri-Tyl? *cough, bullshit, cough*
I thought you would make such an offer, Eric. Keith knew you had the upper
hand in the Black Sea. Since he expected you to prevail, he encouraged
Adam's units to move away from the AR front and took Bulgaria.
>>Keith purports to fear becoming a victim of IR.
His fear is real. He's now becoming aware of how stretched out he is and
how stretched out his main partner Adam is. Raine surrounding Greece just
makes matters worse.
I know we have several days to work out the details, but I'm starting to
fixate on orders. I hope you all understand.
I don't remember for sure, but I think Rod suggested I order ruh - kie and
bur - ruh. It may sound kind of funny, but I'm tempted to do just that. It
ensures my units return to German territory and it gives me the flexibility
of an army in Kiel. Maybe I'm just fooling myself, but I think AR will
break this fall. Even if it doesn't, It think that might be my best move.
Any comments?
- Steve
From - Thu Sep 27 20:03:56 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany,
England and Turkey in 'gutsy':
> I don't remember for sure, but I think Rod suggested I order ruh - kie and
> bur - ruh.
I did mention that possibility, but I'm not sure it's the best move. It's best
feature is that it gets your army out of Bur. ;-) It also puts an army in Kie,
but the only thing A Kie can do that F Kie can't is affect Mun. Unfortunately,
it's still not enough. Pic-Bur, Bur-Ruh, Ruh-Kie gives us three armies on Mun,
but if AR commit all their forces they'll have *five* armies in and around Mun.
OTOH, maybe they'll chicken out and pull back.
Ruh S Bur-Mun at least delays the loss of Mun for one season. Also, I think it's
important to get F Hol into Bal as soon as possible, and going through Kie is the
quickest way.
Rod
From - Thu Sep 27 20:03:58 2001
Broadcast message from zvili at hotmail.com as Observer in 'gutsy':
>Many thanks to those who gave feedback on the formatting of my last
>broadcast. The consensus is that the lines are indeed very long, but
>everyone can read it just fine, because your email client automatically
>wraps it.
>
>Rod
Nope, in Hotmail you need to scroll Right (in a 800*600 resulution) .
From - Thu Sep 27 20:04:02 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
Brent,
It's your decision regarding Nwy-StP/NC or Nwy-Swe, but Nwy-Swe,
Yor-Nth-Nwy does two things, it signals Russia that you're working against
him with Steve, and the threat to Russia implied by EA Nwy would be useful
to me as a negotiation tool. Also, if Rod can keep Mar open and
build a Fleet there, it will force Raine to turn West as we wanted him to
all along, so that's another reason for not taking Lon this Fall. Please
let us
all know your thoughts on Swe vs. StP.
Thanks,
Eric.
From - Fri Sep 28 18:07:24 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England, France and Germany
in 'gutsy':
Steve,
> Message from Germany to England, France and Turkey :
>
> His fear is real. He's now becoming aware of how stretched out he is and
> how stretched out his main partner Adam is. Raine surrounding Greece
> just makes matters worse.
You seem to view being stretch out as a bad thing, and it is, if you get
stabbed, but since AR are the ones who are stretched out, they're also
poorly positioned to seriously stab each other.
> I don't remember for sure, but I think Rod suggested I order ruh - kie and
> bur - ruh. It may sound kind of funny, but I'm tempted to do just that.
It
> ensures my units return to German territory and it gives me the
flexibility
> of an army in Kiel. Maybe I'm just fooling myself, but I think AR will
> break this fall. Even if it doesn't, It think that might be my best move.
> Any comments?
My approach is to not believe people adjacent to my Home Centers
when they say they are going to stab their ally, until their Units move
adjacent to their "ally's" Home Centers. Call me paranoid. ;^} Assume
for the moment that AR order Boh S Tyl-Mun, Vie-Tyl, Sil-Ber, War-Sil.
If you move to Ruhr, Austria gains two Centers, and you lose one. Can
you afford to be wrong? Additionally, if you want to retake Berlin, you're
going to need a Fleet in the Baltic, so Hol-Kie makes more sense, I think.
Eric the Opinionated B*st*rd 8-)
From - Fri Sep 28 18:07:30 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England, France and Turkey in
'gutsy':
Thanks Eric, I appreciate your feedback.
My problem is that I'm facing a real tricky decision and am only starting to
explore the options. It's going to take a few days to figure this out.
I've appreciated the "Triple + T" press; it's helped me a lot. Thanks.
Here are a couple of my thoughts:
> My approach is to not believe people adjacent to my Home Centers
> when they say they are going to stab their ally, until their Units move
> adjacent to their "ally's" Home Centers. Call me paranoid. ;^}
Shoot, I never believe someone who says they will stab their ally. That
would be silly. The thing I find strange about this situation is that I've
exchanged several letters with both Keith and Adam and neither one of them
has even raised the possibility of stabbing the other. In my experience,
that is remarkably unusual.
This is kind of like F'01 when no one asked me to bounce Russia in Sweden.
That really puzzled me. It seems like the same thing; they both want it to
happen, but they don't quite trust the diplomatic channels enough to say
anything.
> You seem to view being stretch out as a bad thing, and it is, if you get
> stabbed, but since AR are the ones who are stretched out, they're also
> poorly positioned to seriously stab each other.
The AR situation is an excellent example of the "prisoner's problem" and
illustrates why people find mutual bounces so appealing. Except in this
case, it's kind of like a "mutual stab". Maybe that's a fuzzy analogy, but
that's what I'm thinking right now.
> Additionally, if you want to retake Berlin, you're going to need
> a Fleet in the Baltic, so Hol-Kie makes more sense, I think.
Actually, I'd like to figure out some way to disband the fleet. If AR is
real, I'll need armies more; if not I won't have to. Not that I *really*
want to do it, but I think we should at least have a plan. Any ideas?
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 28 18:07:34 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England, France and Germany
in 'gutsy':
> Message from Germany to England, France and Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> My problem is that I'm facing a real tricky decision and am only starting
> to explore the options. It's going to take a few days to figure this out.
I understand, I'm facing a similar dilmena, down here, which is one of
the reasons, I favor Hol-Kie, Den S Nwy-Swe, Yor-Nth-Nwy. A Nwy
is a bigger "perceived threat" to Russia than F StP/NC is, and if you
dislodge RF Swe, you'll need F Kie to retake Bal, if he retreats there.
> [neither ]Keith, [nor] Adam has even raised the possibility of stabbing
> the other. In my experience, that is remarkably unusual.
They probably doubt that you'd believe them.
> This is kind of like F'01 when no one asked me to bounce Russia in
> Sweden. That really puzzled me.
I left it up to you, but I favored the idea.
> Actually, I'd like to figure out some way to disband the fleet. If AR is
> real, I'll need armies more; if not I won't have to. Not that I *really*
> want to do it, but I think we should at least have a plan. Any ideas?
You don't want to do that before Russia disbands his Northern
Fleet, certainly. (I'd advise keeping two Fleets in the greater
Baltic to make Brent think twice about stabbing you, anyway, but...)
Eric the Paranoid. (Oh, wait, you are all against me... 8-)
From - Fri Sep 28 18:07:38 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
I imagine your mailbox is overflowing with gutsy press. I'll make this
short so you can respond to me and ignore everyone else. :)
I'd like you to attack Greece (I think I said this in an earlier letter),
but what's most important to me is that you and I keep talking and working
together. I'm in a difficult spot right now, but I don't expect to lose any
centers overall. Next year, I might have to concede Belgium in order to
reclaim Berlin, but I think that's worth it.
>From what I have read, you and Adam have a good relationship. If you both
attack Keith (Russia to Bulgaria and you to Greece), you both get a center.
You can cover Venice and build in Rome to protect it.
The other thing I'd like to point out is that Rod is still in London. It's
unlikely that he will head your way very soon especially if Piedmont
retreats to Venice.
Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 28 18:07:53 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
What a season! I wouldn't bet my money on those moves. Your move to Nth
was not the most likely move. Would you like to give me a comment?
> What do you think of that? I go dancing my way into Burgundy only to find
> Austrian and Russian forces following me. If I didn't love playing
> Diplomacy so much, I'd be pretty angry. LOL. :)
Your attitude is correct. You won't gain anything by angry actions. I feel
bad. I was serious about our plan to go after France. Now you could claim
that I fooled you to leave your back open. I had no idea of RAs
intensions. In fact I was afraid of AT alliance. No need to say that I was
wrong.
> I have a favor to ask, my friend. Are you willing to attack Greece? That
> would definitely help me out.
My intension was to go Greece before I saw the last moves. I still think
it is possible that I go after Greece but I really cannot say it for sure
at the moment.
> Write when you can; we have lots of time to talk before the next moves.
It is good that there is plenty of time 'cause I haven't been able to
discuss lately.
> Thanks for moving to Piedmont, by the way, but now I just wish you had held
> in Tyrolia. :)
At least I know that I can trust you. You moved to Burgundy like you said
you will. Still, I am more unhappy about the AR moves 'cause it certainly
looks like I had been talking you in to a trap. I hope you pay attention
to our previous discussions. There you should be able to see that I wasn't
aware of RA alliance.
Raine
PS. I'll reply to your other mail immediately too.
From - Fri Sep 28 18:08:12 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
You are right about flooding mailbox. People are either asking about the
existense or formation of AIR alliance.
I told you before that I thought RG relations are good. I really thought
so. The way you talked of each other fooled me to believe that RG is at
least neutral. I am sorry if my mails were a factor in your decision
making process.
> >From what I have read, you and Adam have a good relationship.
Where did you read this?
> If you both
> attack Keith (Russia to Bulgaria and you to Greece), you both get a center.
> You can cover Venice and build in Rome to protect it.
If you hadn't move to Nth I'd be sure that you'd kick Adam out of Sweden.
While there seems to be AR alliance (and some people talk about ARI!) it
might be wise to co-operate with Brent.
> The other thing I'd like to point out is that Rod is still in London. It's
> unlikely that he will head your way very soon especially if Piedmont
> retreats to Venice.
He certainly has the chance to do so if he wants. Probalby Keith is
spreading rumours of AIR so that the rest of the board would attack
against AIR i.e. Keith would be safe between RI. I am scared of the
French reaction.
Raine
From - Fri Sep 28 18:08:15 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Observer in 'gutsy':
>Broadcast message from zvili at hotmail.com as Observer in 'gutsy':
>
>
> >Many thanks to those who gave feedback on the formatting of my last
> >broadcast. The consensus is that the lines are indeed very long, but
> >everyone can read it just fine, because your email client >automatically
>wraps it.
> >
> >Rod
>
>Nope, in Hotmail you need to scroll Right (in a 800*600 resulution) .
Click on "Options", "Additional Options", "Mail Display Options",
"Line Width" and select "80 Characters per Inch". Long lines will wrap.
Eric.
From - Fri Sep 28 18:08:20 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I am confused of the current situation on board. I would guess that these
AIR alliance talks come from Austria! Austria is safe between IR if the
rest of the board would attack AIR.
> Does this mean that you will move Pie-Ven?
I think it is fairly likely :-) No seriously I think it is what I am going
to do. You could make a self-bounce in Mar to make you feel comfortable.
> That would allay my concerns and offer you protection from Austria.
> He will soon have more units than can be effectively leveraged against
> Germany and Turkey, and I fear that you might make a tempting target.
I am fully aware of my weaknesses compared to Austria. My situation seems
to be very complicated.
How about the west? Germany is making both your and Brent's life
difficult. So far I have been under the impression of FG alliance (from
the moves). Lucky for you Germany is being pressured in eastern front.
Raine
From - Fri Sep 28 18:08:28 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
I'm glad to hear that my move to Piedmont was helpful. Why was Steve
interrupting you by moving Den-Nth? You have talked about good relations
with Steve but from the moves one can read that Steve thinks something
else. You should really start to co-operate with him. That would help me,
too.
> I do think you made a rather large mistake though. By splitting your
> forces between the East and the West, you've succeeded in making two enemies
> without really making any friends (other than me) or any strong gains for
> yourself. France is going to be turning to defend the Med, and you're going
> to have fleets poking around in the East. And at best you're going to get
> one Turkish center, which can easily be gobbled up by the AR alliance.
> So, I'm interested in where you plan to go from here. I will be booting
> France out of London, so you don't have to worry about him building, but I
> can pretty much guarantee you will have two fleets headed your way soon. It
> will take more than just Smyrna if you want to be able to win the battle
> with him rather than just survive it. Any ideas?
No ideas. I'll need your help. Really. There seems to be a bunch of
people who are sure that there is a RAI alliance. Well I am not surprised
if it turns out that Keith is spreading those rumours. Keith is safe from
attack against RAI 'cause he is in between RI.
I know my move to Pie ain't the same that you wanted i.e. all the Italian
units against France but the single move to Pie surely had the same
effect. France is furious. I hope you can give me a helping hand later
when I need it.
Raine
From - Fri Sep 28 18:08:31 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
> Feel free to prove appearances wrong by attacking
> Austria. 8-)
Despite the '8-)' I am seriously considering that.
> I offered Keith Rum, he decided Adam made the
> better offer.
Yes, I saw your support to Rum. Did you try hard enough? I would guess
that 'titleist' is higher in your priorities than 'gutsy'.
> If you take Gre, and order Pie-Ven, Rod has no
> reason to attack you, and probably won't want to
> shift to do so, given the EG moves this Spring.
EG moves where interesting indeed. Den-Nth? That could be interpreted as
pro English or against English.
> Yes, but if you and/or Adam stab Keith this Fall,
> the western response to AIR will collapse.
I hope people will realize that attacking Italy at this point will only
make Austria bigger.
> I'd suggest that you take Greece, and move
> Pie-Ven, and try to get Adam to stab Austria, as
> well. (I'll certainly be working on him. 8-)
Any response from Adam?
Raine
From - Fri Sep 28 18:08:36 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
>Message from Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
> > I offered Keith Rum, he decided Adam made the
> > better offer.
>
>Yes, I saw your support to Rum. Did you try hard enough? I would guess that
>'titleist' is higher in your priorities than 'gutsy'.
'titleist' is waiting for someone's orders. Most
of us had our orders in, and were ready to go on the 10th,
but someone is holding things up. I thought I made a
good case to Keith for AT vs. IR, but he was unwilling
to share any information with me from his negotiations
with others, so it was difficult to engage him in
extended negotiation.
>Den-Nth? That could be interpreted as
>pro English or against English.
Yes, but Mun-Bur is pretty clearly pro-English.
>I hope people will realize that attacking Italy at this point will only
>make Austria bigger.
Well, Keith is the only one who can actually
attack you before F1903M.
>Any response from Adam?
He said he'd think about it, but that he was
spending a long weekend with his parents, and would
be limited in his communications.
Eric.
From - Fri Sep 28 18:08:38 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria and Russia in
'gutsy':
Dear Allies,
Keith, I hope you can forgive my presence in Aegean Sea. I took the risk
and afterwards it is easy to say that it was worth it. Keith I am happy
that you moved Bud-Vie :-) I was worried about move to Tri, especially
when you didn't answer to my question about Bud.
France:
-------
BTW, France is furious! He might turn his troops against me. He really was
annoyed of my move to Pie. We'd better prepare to co-operated attack
against us.
I have many options how to handle France:
-Pie S Spa-Mar, good one if France tries a self-bounce.
-Pie-Mar, this is good if France is a gambler. Have you played with Rod
before? If so maybe you can tell me about his playing style. Is he a
gambler or does he always play safe?
-None of above.
No matter what I decide to do I have a desire to tell France that 'feel
free to make a self-bounce in Mar' :-) Any comments?
Con,Bul,Gre:
------------
We have many options here. Your proposal have been good ones. We just have
to decide what is the path we'll follow. I have to rely you both a lot to
get a single build. I have no problem in there, I just hope you see Italy
as a good ally on your side. Your messages covers our mainstream tactics
but here is something not so predictable (I want us to discuss about
these, I won't say that these are the best options)
Here are some ideas from Italy's point of view (something you have not
mentioned):
Option #1:
Tyr-Mun ! Berlin to Russia in the next year.
Boh s Tyr-Mun ! Germany would struggle a lot.
Sil S Tyr-Mun
Rum S Bla-Bul(ec)
Bla-Bul(ec)
Aeg-Gre
Ion S Aeg-Gre
This would end the talks about AIR! It looks like Italy is attacking
Austria. The motivation would be to prepare Italian western attack. This
is the fastest way for me to do it. Keith, I would ask you to dispand
your fleet (you could build an army instead). This option leaves us
Austria: 1 build from dispanding the fleet
Italy: 1 build from Greece
Russia: 1 build from Bulgaria
Turkey: removes nothing
Disadvantages:
-Austria gains nothing but the fleet-to-army change.
-Turkey is kept alive and not easy to kill after these moves.
Option #2:
Sil-Mun
Boh S Sil-Mun
Tyr S Sil-Mun
Bul-Con
Bla-Ank(or Bla S Bul-Con)
Aeg S Bul-Con
Gre-Bul(sc)
Ion-Gre
Austria: 1 build from Con
Italia: 1 build from Gre
Russia: 1 build from Mun
Turkey: Removes 1 due to lost of Con.
Disadvantages:
-It takes more time to head west for me.
-Austria still has a useless fleet.
-Army in Tunis would be idling for longer time (no fleet in Ion)
So both these options include taking Muninch from Germany and leaving
Berlin to be taken in next year. I would say that Germany would most
likely stay in Burgundy after Ruh S Bur-Mun (*bounce*) that would be good.
It is _very_ important that we make sure that our moves are coordinated
well. Especially for me, if one of you is not with me then I'll lose a
build. That would be nasty. So, let's make sure that we know what we are
doing.
Yours,
Raine
From - Fri Sep 28 18:08:49 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
> but someone is holding things up. I thought I made a
> good case to Keith for AT vs. IR, but he was unwilling
> to share any information with me from his negotiations
> with others, so it was difficult to engage him in
> extended negotiation.
I knew you were trying to talk either R or A with you 'cause I received
only a couple of short mails from you. I was sure that you won't give up.
I know I can blame myself 'cause I haven't been very active lately on
'gutsy'. My guess was that you try to talk Keith on your side. I actually
believed there was AT :-)
> He said he'd think about it, but that he was
> spending a long weekend with his parents, and would
> be limited in his communications.
I'll try to be around so that you can communicate with me :-)
Raine
From - Fri Sep 28 18:08:55 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
> > I thought I made a good case to Keith for AT vs. IR
>I knew you were trying to talk either R or A with you 'cause I received
>only a couple of short mails
Actually, I felt I laid out my positions to all
of AIR, so I pretty much sat back, and waited to see
the orders. There's a point where going over the
same information again and again becomes unproductive,
and I wasn't getting meaningful feedback from any of
you, so waiting for the moves seemed like the most
reasonable thing to do.
>you can communicate with me :-)
Given IF Aeg, AA Bul, and RF Bla, I can't afford
to try to arrange support back into Bul, so unless
you have questions, I really think I've said
everything I need to. If you are interested in
actively working with me next year, Ion S Aeg-Gre
would go a long way toward restoring good relations
between us.
Eric the Persistent.
From - Fri Sep 28 18:08:56 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
I understand your argument for wanting me to go for Sweden, but I'm just
not comfortable leaving London under Rod's control. All the signs seem to
point to this AIR breaking up pretty quickly, and when it does I want to be
in a position to have an advantage over him instead of the other way around.
If I were to convoy to Norway, I'd only get one build. And if I wanted to
take London, I'd have to use that one build to do it. To me, that just
doesn't seem like an efficient use of troops.
I am doing everything I can to convince Keith, Adam, and Raine to turn on
each other instead of you. I really do want to help you out here. But I'm
not quite willing to do it at the expense of my own survival.
Understandable enough?
Brent
From - Fri Sep 28 18:08:58 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
[Why was Steve interrupting you by moving Den-Nth? You have talked about
good relations
with Steve but from the moves one can read that Steve thinks something
else.]
No, that was an arranged bounce so that I could feel safe that he wasn't
going to end up in Nth, but also keep Russia out of Norway. As you can see
by his move to Burgundy, Steve was true to his word about being ready to
help out against Rod. The problem is that he's now under attack from both A
and R, and he won't be able to help out much until that pressure is
relieved.
[There seems to be a bunch of people who are sure that there is a RAI
alliance. ]
Well, I reached that conclusion on my own. But of the three, you seem to
be the most peripheral member. Like I said before, it doesn't look like you
stand to gain much of anything from such an alliance, so I assume you're
open to other alternatives.
[all the Italian units against France but the single move to Pie surely had
the same
effect]
Yah, it was enough to help me. Now I'm more worried about you. France is
going to be gunning for you soon, and I just want you to be ready.
[I hope you can give me a helping hand later when I need it.]
You bet. I'll start off by taking London so that you don't have to worry
about a French build. Let me know what else you have in mind and hopefully
we can work something out.
Brent
From - Fri Sep 28 18:09:00 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France, Germany and Turkey in
'gutsy':
Sorry I've been a bit silent, yesterday was a busy day. Anyways, I
appreciate all the debate, it does help to clarify the pros and cons of
everything. Right now, I still agree with Rod and Steve about the convoy to
Norway, Sweden can always be captured later and I am quite partial to
regaining control of my capital. But Eric has a point in saying that we
need to be intimidating AIR if we're going to save him. I'm trying to do
that without having to make the convoy.
On the other topic of discussion, I kind of agree with Steve's idea of
moving the army back to Kiel and disbanding the fleet. I know it would make
me feel better about moving all my fleets up North for a Russian attack if
there wasn't a fleet sitting around in Holland. The other side makes a good
point too though, Baltic is a very important area and it would be nice to
not have to give up another center. So I'm OK with either solution at this
point.
I'm continuing my discussions with the East, I'll update everyone when I
have something of interest from them. Right now I have to get going. Long
live the Counter-Alliance!
From - Fri Sep 28 18:09:01 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
Brent,
>Message from England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>I'm just not comfortable leaving London under Rod's control.
Understandable, but I'm not suggesting leaving Lon
French, just delaying the recovery for a year.
>the signs seem to point to this AIR breaking up
Signs can easily be misinterpreted, or deliberately
painted to be misleading, though. I know AIR is
claiming there is no real Triple, but that's the
standard line that a Triple feeds to its victims.
Look at ARs Spring moves. To me, they display a
phenomonal amount of trust, and make a stab this
Fall seem unlikely.
>If I were to convoy to Norway, I'd only get one build.
Yes, and Rod would be able to build F Mar, to
"encourage" Raine to rethink his attack on me.
>And if I wanted to take London, I'd have to use that build to do it.
Not necessarily. Consider: Nwy-Swe, Yor-Nwy,
B A Edi. S1903: Nwy-Fin, Edi-Nwy. F1903: Nth-Lon,
Nwy S Fin-StP, B F Edi, B A(or F) Lvp.
>I really do want to help you out here. But I'm
>not willing to do it at my own expense.
I understand, but I don't think I asking you to
risk your survival, or even your growth.
Eric the Persistent. 8-)
From - Fri Sep 28 18:09:04 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England, France and Germany in
'gutsy':
>Message from England to France, Germany and Turkey
>Eric has a point in saying that we need to intimidate AIR if we're going to
>save him. I'm trying to do that without having to make the convoy.
How? While Adam isn't very experienced, his
attitude toward Russia matches mine very closely,
and an enemy Fleet in StP/NC is mildly annoying, but
not the least bit worrisome. Plus if you take Lon,
Rod won't be able to build F Mar, so Raine can
continue his attack on me without fear.
>I [like] the idea of moving Ruhr - Kiel and disbanding the fleet.
Ruh-Kiel, D F Hol make it impossible to retake
Ber without losing Den to F Swe, and it gives Austria
two builds. It's a bad, bad, bad idea, all the way
around. The only "positive" effect it has is making
Germany an easy target for an English stab. 8-)
Obviously, I can't force any of you to move the
way I want you to, and I think I've presented my
case pretty clearly, so I'm going to give up, now.
If you have anything you want my opinion on, feel
free to ask. :-)
Eric the Uncompromising.
From - Fri Sep 28 18:09:09 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany,
England and Turkey in 'gutsy':
> You seem to view being stretch out as a bad thing, and it is, if you get
> stabbed, but since AR are the ones who are stretched out, they're also
> poorly positioned to seriously stab each other.
> On the other topic of discussion, I kind of agree with Steve's idea of
> moving the army back to Kiel and disbanding the fleet. I know it would make
> me feel better about moving all my fleets up North for a Russian attack if
> there wasn't a fleet sitting around in Holland. The other side makes a good
> point too though, Baltic is a very important area and it would be nice to
> not have to give up another center.
A possible "benefit" of ceding Mun this year is that it might entice Austria to
use his two builds against IR. He won't really have much other use for them.
My recommendation remains Hol-Kie, but either way is fine with me. Let me know
what you decide.
Rod
From - Fri Sep 28 18:09:11 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> Austria is safe between IR if the
> rest of the board would attack AIR.
Austria told me that he is worried about IR. You may be right about him.
> > Does this mean that you will move Pie-Ven?
>
> I think it is fairly likely :-)
I'm glad to hear that! We both have better things to do than butt heads in Mar/Pie.
> So far I have been under the impression of FG alliance (from
> the moves).
That's what I thought too - until he moved to Bur.
> Lucky for you Germany is being pressured in eastern front.
Yes, he's really hurting - and begging for assistance. ;-)
Rod
From - Fri Sep 28 18:09:14 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
What do you think Keith and Adam are really up to. I can understand Adam
being tempted by Berlin, but I almost believe Keith will not attack Munich
this fall. Not that he has said anything, but it just seems more likely
that he will try something sneakier. I am tempted to leave Munich open and
disband the fleet in I lose a center, but I'm still not quite sure. If I
were to move hol - kie, I could use it to take Berlin as Eric suggests.
I can wanted to hear your thoughts outside of the larger forum. I hope
that's allright with you.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 28 21:53:54 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I'm pleased to hear that you find my arguments compelling. That's a good
sign.
In case you aren't aware, there's a side disucssion going on, kind of a
EFG+T newsgroup if you will, under the pretense that it will require a
western triple to defend against AIR. I'm not sure if I buy into the
assumption, but that's another matter. :)
On thing that has come out of it is how to best attack Russia. Everyone
believes the north is your weakness (no surprise there), but we disagree on
how to attack. Brent and I are both arguing for Nwy - Stp while Eric and
Rod want to take Sweden this turn and convoy an English army to Norway.
Just so you know, I'm doing my damndest to protect Sweden while you and I
discuss Berlin.
Most of my personal communication lately has been with Keith and Raine.
Raine, at least, claims you and he are talking frequently and talking well.
I like Raine's style and I would be open to some sort of GIR coordination.
Raine also says he will attack Greece. I'm not positive he will, but he has
never lied to me so far, including that Tyr - Mun thing last fall. :)
Regarding your need for confidentially, I will tell anyone else that you are
considering moving against Austria. There's no reason I would want to; if
you move against Keith, I would be the *last* one to tell. I would love to
see I + R jump on A; I would get back to resolving EFG and you, Raine, and I
could work together very well.
Oh yeah, the other thing I want to say is: don't get too stretched out. If
you take Berlin and Brent takes St Pete, you'd have three centers you
couldn't support by yourself (Berlin, Warsaw, and Sweden). I know Russia is
often spread a little thin, but only under the Juggernaut does that approach
succeed. Under AR, both countries have to be a little more compact.
I hope you're having a good holiday (if that's what it is). Please write if
you have the chance, but don't burn any $/sec on me. I'll still be here
when you get back.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Sat Sep 29 08:33:50 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
Thanks for the letters. I don't have a lot of time to write at this moment,
but I wanted to let you know how much I appreciated your note.
Here are a couple of quick thoughts:
> I told you before that I thought RG relations are good. I really thought
> so. The way you talked of each other fooled me to believe that RG is at
> least neutral. I am sorry if my mails were a factor in your decision
> making process.
No problem here. Evidently, I was just as fooled as you. I hope there is
still time to work out a GIR alliance. I truly believe it would be
successful especially with Turkey trapped in the corner and Austria
stretched as thin as he is.
> If you hadn't move to Nth I'd be sure that you'd kick Adam out of Sweden.
> While there seems to be AR alliance (and some people talk about ARI!) it
> might be wise to co-operate with Brent.
Brent and I arranged that bounce to protect Edinburgh and to protect
Denmark. That was a basis of my attack on Burgundy; I hope he and I
continue to work together.
> I am scared of the French reaction.
I think we both should be. I'm not sure how he will respond.
Please write; I'll do the same when I can find more time. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Sat Sep 29 08:34:08 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
[What do you think Keith and Adam are really up to.]
Thats a tough one. Of all the players, they are the two I feel I know the
least about. Here's what I can tell you. Adam has really been pushing this
attack on you for a while, claiming that it is to help me. I even
specifically requested that he hold off on the attack for a season so I
could see whose side you were on, but he didn't do it. That leads me to
believe that he had planned this out with the others earlier, and was
looking for me to jump on the bandwagon, rather than actually consulting me.
Keith on the other hand seems to have gotten pulled into this last minute,
or at least he claims that. He has told me though that he feels like he
can't change positions at this point. So, the signs aren't really there for
them to be turning on each other.
Raine on the other hand has been flaky all game, and prone to do anything
that might beneift him a bit more than others. He is the epitome of your "6
against 1" philosophy, and based on the position I think he would be the
first one to stab out of the three.
[I am tempted to leave Munich open and disband the fleet in I lose a center,
but I'm still not quite sure. If I were to move hol - kie, I could use it
to take Berlin as Eric suggests.]
Well, as I said, the fleet in Holland makes me a bit uncomfortable,
especially with my vacating North Sea, so one way or the other I'd like it
moved. Still, I think losing Munich isn't such a bad thing. Giving Keith
an extra build should only increase the paranoia between him and IR. If
France were to move Pic - Bur, you could most llikely regain Munich next
year.
Still, its your center and your back that fleet in Holland is covering, so
I don't want you to feel like I forced you into it. I've presented you with
what I know at this point, you get to make the decision from it. =)
Brent
From - Sat Sep 29 08:34:09 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
[Yes, and Rod would be able to build F Mar, to
"encourage" Raine to rethink his attack on me.]
Believe me, Raine is already starting to rethink. He knows France is
gunning for him, and I've made sure to restate that fact to him. But you
know Raine, there's really no convincing him to do anything but the moves he
has already decided for himself.
[ Not necessarily. Consider: Nwy-Swe, Yor-Nwy,
B A Edi. S1903: Nwy-Fin, Edi-Nwy. F1903: Nth-Lon,
Nwy S Fin-StP, B F Edi, B A(or F) Lvp.]
A couple problems from my standpoint. First, there's a lot of chances in
there for things to go wrong and either I end up bouncing in London, or
losing North Sea. Second, I just don't think the moves are necessary to get
the desired reaction from Adam. I've actually been trying to play up my
friendship to him at this point so that he really sees himself as being
stabbed in the fall. His ego alone will hopefully cause him to react some
troops North. And what if he doesn't? I can still convoy to Norway in the
Spring and then take Sweden or walk an army into StP in the fall. That
should give him some thought too.
Sorry if it seems I'm being stubborn or selfish (I guess I am a bit). I
do appreciate your input but I've considered both alternatives and this one
really seems like the best for me and the alliance. Steve seems to agree,
and Rod hasn't spoken strongly either way, probably because he hopes I'll
let him keep London but doesn't think its really the best for everyone else.
I do empathize with your position, as it quite closely resembles what I felt
like earlier (only you've got a few more enemies). I hope you believe me
when I say that I really want to find a way to rescue you.
Brent
From - Sat Sep 29 08:34:15 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
I was hoping you'd have replied to my press asking if
you agree this could be our best time to start squeezing
Austria out of a few centers by now, but I guess you're
busy or something. Steve has written to me again suggesting
even more reasons why I personally might want to avoid
going through with the attack on Germany and rather
take an Austrian center and support myself into Gal.
His arguments are very compelling and his press more
lucid and interesting than Austria's. I think it's time,
Do you? I can't do it without you and I fear if we don't
move now that Austria will grow too big for us to
handle easily.
Adam.........
From - Sat Sep 29 16:34:43 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
[The north certainly isn't safe at the moment, glad you've noticed
and decided to bring that up with me rather than Steve.]
Well, to be honest, I've brought it up with both of you. Now that I am in
a position to secure my homeland, I'd like to secure my borders a bit
farther out. I was still hoping we could come up with some sort of
Scandanavian DMZ, but with the attack on Germany happening I don't think
thats a possibility. So I'm looking at alternatives. The way I see it,
you've got all the units you need to take out Turkey, so the builds you get
will be headed elsewhere, and I'm one of the most likely targets. The fact
that you've been reluctant to say that you won't build in the North is also
of concern, as is the fact that your idea of a safe North for me is ordering
Swe - Nwy. So lets try this again. What kind of assurances can you give me
that I am not your next target once you pick up Ber and Con?
Brent
From - Sat Sep 29 16:34:50 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
So, after a few days of discussion do you have any better idea of what
your plans are at this point? France is definitely coming your way. Eric
will most likely be covering Smyrna to make sure he only loses one center.
Keith tells me that he is sticking with Russia, but has told others that he
may be considering a switch. So you're either stuck bouncing Eric as part
of an alliance that won't benefit you, turning around to fight France with
only 4 centers, or attacking Keith who's got much better position than you
to retaliate. Not a pleasant situation, but I can't feel too bad for you
because you've pretty much gotten into it of your own accord. Anyways, I'll
do what I can to help, but before I start commiting too much forces to
joining your attack on France, I'd like to know that you ave a plan for
surviving your current situation.
Brent
From - Sun Sep 30 08:30:06 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
If you're up for it, I'd like to chat a bit before the moves are submitted.
Everything I've heard from you and Brent indicates you're serious about
leaving London, but I can't quite bring myself to believe it. No need to
comment, but if you do stay, I wouldn't consider it an affront to our
relationship.
The other thing I'd like to talk about is Raine. I'm pretty sure he will be
attacking Greece (as I hope Adam attacks Bulgaria). If you do really leave
London and head to the med, I think you'll have a fairly easy time of it.
At this point, Rod, I'm not really trying to convince you of anything. I'm
just letting you know what I know. Write if you can.
- Steve
From - Sun Sep 30 08:30:18 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> Everything I've heard from you and Brent indicates you're serious about
> leaving London, but I can't quite bring myself to believe it. No need to
> comment, but if you do stay, I wouldn't consider it an affront to our
> relationship.
I'm not real crazy about him getting two builds, but I don't want him to
get one build and decide it needs to be F Lvp either. I'm leaning
towards leaving Lon and hoping he commits his forces against Russia.
> The other thing I'd like to talk about is Raine. I'm pretty sure he will be
> attacking Greece (as I hope Adam attacks Bulgaria). If you do really leave
> London and head to the med, I think you'll have a fairly easy time of it.
I'll probably move to Eng and MAO, but I have not yet decided whether
I'll then progress into the Med. Raine could just as easily make peace
with his enemies as we have, and a Med quagmire isn't too attractive
while England is on the comeback trail.
Rod
From - Sun Sep 30 08:30:23 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Thanks for the letter. I appreciate it.
> I'm not real crazy about him getting two builds, but I don't want him to
> get one build and decide it needs to be F Lvp either. I'm leaning
> towards leaving Lon and hoping he commits his forces against Russia.
That's good to hear. You fought hard for that center and I'd hate to see
you give it away that easily. I know I probably wouldn't.
Brent's last couple of EFG+T broadcasts seem to say he will order nwy - stp,
nth - nwy, and yor - lon. If you hold London, that would give Brent reason
to be pissed off at you. On the other hand, if he went with Eric's
suggestion (nwy - swe, convoy yor - nwy), he would depend on my support from
Denmark to succeed.
So, here's what I'm *really* thinking: I'm willing to take the heat from
Brent.
If he declares in EFG+T press, that he will go with Eric's suggestion, I'll
"forget" to support him into Sweden. I would rather have a three center
England that's angry at me and a refreshed FG partnership than a growing
England, no matter who he is aligned with. I'm also willing to accept a
large but inexperienced and stab/ELS prone Russia.
Please let me know what you think.
Also:
> I'll probably move to Eng and MAO, but I have not yet decided whether
> I'll then progress into the Med. Raine could just as easily make peace
> with his enemies as we have, and a Med quagmire isn't too attractive
> while England is on the comeback trail.
Taking MAO is always a good thing. It gives you the option of moving into
the Med and defending against or attacking Liverpool. Or, if you believe
Raine will attack Greece (which I think he will), you can take the channel.
I might even attack the North Sea at the same time; that would really
surprise Brent.
Bottom line, Rod, Sealion is way behind us, but of all the Western combos
(EF, FG, EG, the triple), FG still makes the most sense to me.
Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Sun Sep 30 20:15:01 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> If he declares in EFG+T press, that he will go with Eric's suggestion, I'll
> "forget" to support him into Sweden.
I think that's a great idea, but the trick is getting him to agree to
Eric's suggestion. I think he has his heart set on reclaiming Lon.
> I might even attack the North Sea at the same time; that would really
> surprise Brent.
Fine with me. :-)
> Bottom line, Rod, Sealion is way behind us, but of all the Western combos
> (EF, FG, EG, the triple), FG still makes the most sense to me.
I agree. You just need to get those monkeys off your back, then we can
get back to work. ;-)
Rod
From - Mon Oct 01 20:49:59 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
The extension is not asked by me. Although I am very happy about the
extension. I hope I haven't ruined my chances in gutsy 'cause I have been
able to talk very little due to RL hurries.
As always I try to look at the bright side of life :-)
I haven't been talking neither you or Keith privately. My only press to
you was the last press to AR where I proposed the attack against Munich
rather than against Berlin. So what is the 'bright side'? _Nobody_ knows
what I am going to do 'cause I haven't been active. There ain't a single
person who can tell reliably what Italy is going to do. If you here
someone saying 'Italy is doing this and that' you know that he is talking
nonsense. I don't know for sure myself, yet.
About Attacking Austria now:
----------------------------
-Keith is aware of the possible RI attack against him. This is why we
_need_ to keep up RAI talks even if we plan to attack against Austria (I
know I am bad example while I have been so silent).
-No matter if we attack Keith or not let's keep press between AIR going.
-AT will ally immediately if we attack Austria now. I am afraid that AT
already have talked about co-operation.
-Turkey will be our common problem.
-I am willing to try to attack Austria. Because to get a build I need help
from _both_ of you and Keith. At the moment there has been so little talks
between us that I am afraid of 'Italy 0 builds'.
I propose that we keep up the talks between ARI and also talk about attack
against Austria, ok? I still think it as a possibility that we could
attack Turkey a bit more with AIR but at the moment the possibility of
this is tiny.
The attack against Austria:
---------------------------
Italy takes Gre.
Russia takes Bul + supports himself to Galicia. I need you to cut Bul S
Gre. Otherwise I am left without a build. So, Bla-Bul(ec) is needed.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:04 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria and Russia in
'gutsy':
Dear Allies,
I am happy of the deadline extension. I am not the one who asked for it
but I certainly needed it to get a chance to diplome enough. Please, give
me a message as soon as possible if you did not ask for it. We need to
talk a lot before the deadline.
I would suggest that we start our talks from these moves (feel free to
propose something else):
Austria:
a bul-con
f gre-bul(sc)
a tyr-somewhere else than Venice :-)
Italy:
f aeg s bul-con
f ion-gre
Russia:
f bla-ank
a rum s gre-bul(sc)
f sev s bla
a sil-ber
I need you both desperately to get a build so please let's get back to
good old ARI business.
Yours,
Raine
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:13 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
I haven't heard from you for awhile. I have been busy myself so I have not
been able to talk much either. Also while being busy I haven't stopped to
think about the current situation throughly. Then I understood your
situation better when someone told me that Austria is afraid of IR attack.
I understand you position well and it certainly does not help you that I
have been inactive lately. I hope it was not you who asked the extension
'cause we have a lot to discuss.
I have future plans for Italy. I simply hadn't got the time to think of it
:-( So I would be pleased if we could continue ARI hitting T. My problem
is that I need you (AR) both and it is going to be hard if you are out of
reach. So please give me a note as soon as possible, ok? Also if someone
tells you some bright ideas about what I am going to you can immediately
call him a liar. I don't even know myself what I'm going to do.
Eric has been silent to me so I guess he is trying to manipulate you or
Adam on his side. If he tries to get you on his side he probably is
telling about RI at the moment. RT is quite hard to believe at the
moment. So I bet my money on you as Eric's favourite talking target (if
one can say so).
Raine
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:20 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
I enjoy to read your press. You seem to be calm no matter what has
happended. That is cool. I have to assume that you are still trying to
get Keith on your side. Russia seems to be out of the question with his
two fleets and his previous actions. I have the feeling that I am not
receiving enough mail from you to think I am the first candidate as your
ally. I try to be the #1 candidate :-)
> If you are interested in
> actively working with me next year, Ion S Aeg-Gre
> would go a long way toward restoring good relations
> between us.
OK. Let's start from Ion S Aeg-Gre. I would like to see TI alliance,
really. TI needs, Turkey with only one fleet and preferably in Black Sea.
What do you say? I am not saying that I am going to TI alliance with full
speed but I thing we should discuss about this possibility thoroughly. Your
next supply could be Sevastopol instead of Bulgaria.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:24 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
First let me tell you that there is one person who constantly insist that
you are coming after me with full force. Ok, that is only one person.
Still it makes me nervous. I know I have been a bad boy 'cause I moved to
Piedmont, still I think it would be overkill to send all your forces
against me. Do you want to comment this?
I see the possibility of supported attack against London. After that you
could dispand the fleet and rebuild it to Mar. I really hate that idea.
> I'm glad to hear that! We both have better things to do than butt
> heads in Mar/Pie.
I think it is stupid for us to start fighting. At least from my point of
view. I would be toast :-( So I hope you won't build a fleet in Mar (in
case you get a chance to build).
> That's what I thought too - until he moved to Bur.
I want to polish my 'good guy' -ego and ask if Germany told it in advance
that he is moving to Burgundy?
> Yes, he's really hurting - and begging for assistance. ;-)
This ain't fair! He should beg from me too ;-)
Raine
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:26 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your short note. I appreciate it when people try to negotiate
while they are in a hurry in real life.
> No problem here. Evidently, I was just as fooled as you. I hope there is
> still time to work out a GIR alliance. I truly believe it would be
> successful especially with Turkey trapped in the corner and Austria
> stretched as thin as he is.
GIR would be great! In that case you should not worry about losing
Berlin. Still it might be too much to ask you to continue the plan we
talked about. I mean, attack France. You should be sure that Austria is
not coming after you. Normally I wouldn't believe that Austria is
attacking Germany in 1902 but this is 'gutsy' and I am not a good
fortuneteller in this game.
> Brent and I arranged that bounce to protect Edinburgh and to protect
> Denmark. That was a basis of my attack on Burgundy; I hope he and I
> continue to work together.
Yes, that would be good for us. You talked about GIR. How is that
possible? I think there is obvious AR alliance at the moment. That in mind
I thought that you and Brent might want to dislodge Adam from Sweden.
Have you talked with Adam about GR of GIR?
Raine
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:29 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
>
>I enjoy to read your press.
("I enjoy reading your press.")
>You seem to be calm no matter what has happened.
Anger is rarely productive, and this is a game where
stabs happen, and lies get told, so there's not much
point in playing it, if betrayal will upset you.
>I have to assume that you are still trying to get Keith on your side.
Actually, I don't think I've written to Keith this
turn. I can't support him into Rum, and can't afford
to assume that he'll support me into Aeg.
>I have the feeling that I am not receiving enough mail from you to think I
>am the first candidate as your ally.
Actually moves processed in 'titleist' on Friday,
and that has occupied my time this weekend. I laid
out my position to you and to Adam, and now I'm
basically waiting to see who moves against Keith.
>OK. Let's start from Ion S Aeg-Gre. TI needs, Turkey with only one fleet
>and preferably in Black Sea.
Well, I already have two, and I'm not prepared to see
one of them destroyed at this point. F Bla, and F Syr,
perhaps, are no more threatening to you than F TyS,
F Tun are to me. As long as we keep Fleets out of Ion,
Aeg, and EMed an IT Alliance can work quite well, I
think.
>Your next supply could be Sevastopol instead of Bulgaria.
If you move Aeg-Gre, that becomes possible.
Eric.
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:30 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
> Anger is rarely productive, and this is a game where
> stabs happen, and lies get told, so there's not much
> point in playing it, if betrayal will upset you.
Who betreayed you? I agree with you about anger. It is a skill to be able
to be calm when you feel betrayed. I can admit that I am not that calm
type.
> Actually, I don't think I've written to Keith this
> turn. I can't support him into Rum, and can't afford
> to assume that he'll support me into Aeg.
What's the point in moving to Aeg? I mean, that is not what I'd like you
to do if I move against Austria.
> Actually moves processed in 'titleist' on Friday,
> and that has occupied my time this weekend. I laid
> out my position to you and to Adam, and now I'm
> basically waiting to see who moves against Keith.
Would you like to guess :-)
> Well, I already have two, and I'm not prepared to see
> one of them destroyed at this point. F Bla, and F Syr,
> perhaps, are no more threatening to you than F TyS,
> F Tun are to me. As long as we keep Fleets out of Ion,
> Aeg, and EMed an IT Alliance can work quite well, I
> think.
Destruction of your fleet is not a problem. It can be arranged :-)
> If you move Aeg-Gre, that becomes possible.
Not before?!?
Raine
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:31 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
> > there's not much point in playing, > if betrayal will upset you.
>
>Who betrayed you?
No-one, really, I was speaking in general.
> > Actually, I don't think I've written to Keith this
> > turn. I can't support him into Rum, and can't > afford to assume that
>he'll support me into Aeg.
>
>What's the point in moving to Aeg?
If I was going to work with Keith, it would be against
Russia or you. If AT were to attack R, I'd try for
Bla, and Sev, if AT were to attack Italy, getting my
Fleet into Aeg would be the logical first step. Given
that Keith took Bul this Spring, I have no reason to
work with him at this point.
>Destruction of your fleet is not a problem. It can be arranged :-)
It would prove a problem for the smooth functioning
of the IT Alliance. You should be destroying Austria's
Fleet, rather than one of mine. Turkey does not
threaten Italy unless a third Turkish Fleet gets built.
> > If you move Aeg-Gre, that becomes possible.
>
>Not before?!?
It would be difficult for me to attack Sev with your
Fleet sitting adjacent to Con and Smy. Would you
attack France if I had a Fleet in TyS?
Eric the Reasonable. 8-)
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:33 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Dear Eric the Reasonable,
It is good that no-one betrayed you.
> >What's the point in moving to Aeg?
>
> If I was going to work with Keith, it would be against
> Russia or you. If AT were to attack R, I'd try for
> Bla, and Sev, if AT were to attack Italy, getting my
> Fleet into Aeg would be the logical first step. Given
> that Keith took Bul this Spring, I have no reason to
> work with him at this point.
I hope my move to Aeg did not prevent future co-operation between us.
I'd like to ask from you a simple question: If you were 100% sure that
Italy is attacking Austria with move: Aeg-Gre,Ion s Aeg-Gre and let's put
Pie-Ven there too, how would you move? Would it be possible that you would
help Italy by moving to Bulgaria to cut the possible support? This is just
speculation but still.
> >Not before?!?
>
> It would be difficult for me to attack Sev with your
> Fleet sitting adjacent to Con and Smy. Would you
> attack France if I had a Fleet in TyS?
If not before, how about simultaneously then?
Raine
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:34 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I hope you enjoyed your long weekend. Moves processed
in 'titleist', so I spent most of the weekend on that
game. Raine is talking as though he'll attack Austria,
though one can never tell with Raine until the moves
come through... ;^} I hope you'll move Rum-Ser/Bud,
Sev S Bla-Rum to offset your losses in the north. If
you have any questions or concerns, feel free to drop
me a line.
Eric the Hopeful.
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:38 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
>I hope my move to Aeg did not prevent future co-operation between us.
No, not at all, as long as it moves from there to
Gre, rather than Con or Smy.
>I'd like to ask from you a simple question: If you were 100% sure that
>Italy is attacking Austria with move: Aeg-Gre,Ion s Aeg-Gre and let's put
>Pie-Ven there too, how would you move? Would it be possible that you would
>help Italy by moving to Bulgaria to cut the possible support?
Your best bet is to demand/request Bul & Bla S Aeg-Con,
and then move Ion S Aeg-Gre, Aeg-Gre. Even if I was
100% sure of your moves, I still have to defend against
AR, and that makes Con-Bul dangerous in the extreme.
> > It would be difficult for me to attack Sev with > your Fleet sitting
>adjacent to Con and Smy. > Would you attack France if I had a Fleet in
>TyS?
>
>If not before, how about simultaneously then?
How would I know with 100% certainty that you were
moving Aeg-Gre, and not Aeg-Smy? Attacking Sev
requires, Arm-Sev, Con S Ank-Bla, leaving Smy open,
and I can't afford to do that with your Fleet in Aeg.
Eric the Cautious.
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:39 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
Well, the West seems convinced that their facing
an AIR Triple, though Italy is denying it. What do
you think will happen now?
Eric the Quiet.
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:40 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
> How would I know with 100% certainty that you were
> moving Aeg-Gre, and not Aeg-Smy? Attacking Sev
> requires, Arm-Sev, Con S Ank-Bla, leaving Smy open,
> and I can't afford to do that with your Fleet in Aeg.
Eric, believe me, I understand. It was a hyphotetical situation, you were
100% sure, how would you move? There is always the possibility that I send
a note before deadline and give you my word of honour that I move like
that :-) You don't need to tell me that you will move like that next but
please tell me how you would move if you were 100% sure that Italy moves
like I told you in previous mail.
Raine
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:42 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Well, the West seems convinced that their facing
> an AIR Triple, though Italy is denying it. What do
> you think will happen now?
I'm not sure. It depends on what Italy does, mostly. What is everyone
telling you?
Austria
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:43 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
>It was a hyphotetical situation, (if) you were
>100% sure, how would you move?
It would depend on my sense of Russia and
Austria's intentions, but I would NOT move
Con-Aeg. That's the best I can offer you, at
this point.
Eric the Cautious.
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:44 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
>What is everyone telling you?
Sorry, but I don't see much reason to provide you with
information, when you're unwilling to respond in kind.
What are you hearing?
Eric.
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:45 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Keith, I hope you can forgive my presence in Aegean Sea. I took the risk
> and afterwards it is easy to say that it was worth it. Keith I am happy
> that you moved Bud-Vie :-) I was worried about move to Tri, especially
> when you didn't answer to my question about Bud.
I don't remember your asking about Bud. Anyway, your move to Aeg worked
out, so it was no problem. I was just worried about Turkey bouncing the
move, and then we would have been set back a few turns.
> BTW, France is furious! He might turn his troops against me. He really was
> annoyed of my move to Pie. We'd better prepare to co-operated attack
> against us.
I am hoping that you will turn your troops west as soon as possible.
Otherwise, if you get too many fleets in the East, I am worried that the
Austrian centers might begin to look tempting. I know I would be tempted
if I have mnay units around your centers.
> I have many options how to handle France:
> -Pie S Spa-Mar, good one if France tries a self-bounce.
This is what I would do. If you wanted an informed opinion about
France's tactical probabilities, we could look up all the games he has
played in and try to see what he is likely to do.
> -Pie-Mar, this is good if France is a gambler. Have you played with Rod
> before? If so maybe you can tell me about his playing style. Is he a
> gambler or does he always play safe?
> -None of above.
> No matter what I decide to do I have a desire to tell France that 'feel
> free to make a self-bounce in Mar' :-) Any comments?
I think the bounce is a default among many players. If you suggest it to
him, he is probably less likely to do it.
> Option #1
[...]
> Disadvantages:
> -Austria gains nothing but the fleet-to-army change.
> -Turkey is kept alive and not easy to kill after these moves.
I don't think this is good at all. We should try to get as many centers
as possible from our neighbors while we can. England is going to be on
our side, and he will take advantage of any weakness from France or
Germany, so I am not so concerned about the other players trying to team
up against us. There is just nowhere for England to go. I don't think
he would be content to stay still.
> Option #2:
> Sil-Mun
> Boh S Sil-Mun
> Tyr S Sil-Mun
> Bul-Con
> Bla-Ank(or Bla S Bul-Con)
> Aeg S Bul-Con
> Gre-Bul(sc)
> Ion-Gre
>
> Austria: 1 build from Con
> Italia: 1 build from Gre
> Russia: 1 build from Mun
> Turkey: Removes 1 due to lost of Con.
>
> Disadvantages:
> -It takes more time to head west for me.
> -Austria still has a useless fleet.
> -Army in Tunis would be idling for longer time (no fleet in Ion)
I don't think my fleet is useless because I can park it in Bul/sc to form
a stable boarder. Of course, Russia could also put a fleet in Bul/ec (I
don't know what Russia is eventually going to do with all his fleets). I
would also be happy to disband the fleet, but I would like to see you
make a commitment to moving west first.
If you want to attack France, or more importantly, if you think France is
going to attack you, I think you should move Ion-Tys. We can guarantee
that you get Con this turn (Bul S Aeg-Con, Bla-Ank). So you can build
another fleet.
Austria
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:47 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
> I would suggest that we start our talks from these moves (feel free to
> propose something else):
>
> Austria:
> a bul-con
> f gre-bul(sc)
> a tyr-somewhere else than Venice :-)
>
> Italy:
> f aeg s bul-con
> f ion-gre
>
> Russia:
> f bla-ank
> a rum s gre-bul(sc)
> f sev s bla
> a sil-ber
This is a better set of moves than those that Italy proposed earlier. I
would prefer, for Austria's sake, that Italy move Ion-Tys and Aeg-Con
supported by Bul, but this is something we should negotiate. I don't
understand why Italy would want to allow France free access into Wes.
I am a bit worried that Italy is concerned about unified opposition
against him and that he is hesitating at the plan to move against France.
Is this true Italy? If so, we should unifiy our efforts to get England
on our side.
Austria
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:48 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I haven't heard from you for awhile.
As I told you, I was getting married.
Austria
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:49 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Sorry, but I don't see much reason to provide you with
> information, when you're unwilling to respond in kind.
> What are you hearing?
Okay, I feel like you are in the position where you need to take more
risks than I do. If I give you any information, your best move is to
pass it on to try to turn people against me.
Austria
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:50 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
>If I give you any information, your best move is to
>pass it on to try to turn people against me.
I'm already turning people against you. 8-)
The only reason I have to stop is if you start
cooperating with me.
Eric the Desperate.
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:52 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> First let me tell you that there is one person who constantly insist that
> you are coming after me with full force.
I would guess that person is England. He is coordinating an EFG response to the
supposed AIR alliance.
> Do you want to comment this?
Yes. I have agreed to let England reclaim Lon as part of the EFG plan, and I
think it's "fairly likely" that I will actually do so. The reason is that even
if he doesn't take Lon he still gets a build (he is moving to StP), and I don't
want to give him a reason for his build to be F Lvp. You see, I want to be a
"good guy" too. :-)
> So I hope you won't build a fleet in Mar (in
> case you get a chance to build).
I will not build a fleet in Mar, but in order to placate England (his clever
bounces of Lon-Wal and Bre-Eng, coupled with Germany's sudden distraction,
have given him a lot of clout), I will move a fleet to MAO. I must do this
because the Spring moves make it appear that AIR are a threat to the west.
> I think it is stupid for us to start fighting.
I agree. It would take a long time for either of us to make any gains against
the other, and it would be foolish for me to commit forces to the Med while England
is growing. I am too vulnerable in the north if I attack you, and you are too
vulnerable in the east if you attack me.
I am hopeful that England will commit forces to the north to distract Russia,
and that Austria will have difficulty getting further builds (though it appears
that he will get Bul this year and Mun the next, unless someone intervenes).
I also hope that you will withdraw from Pie. Then I will know that AIR are not
a threat, and I can focus on making gains in the north. I *want* to attack E or
G, but I can not do so when the east is pressing against the west.
> I want to polish my 'good guy' -ego and ask if Germany told it in advance
> that he is moving to Burgundy?
He was just supposed to bounce me. Instead, he supported himself in.
Rod
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:53 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England,
Germany and Turkey in 'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
Have we reached a consensus?
Rod
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:54 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England, France and Germany in
'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
What are you hearing from the AIR-heads? Italy
claims he's in favor of IT, but then he's been
claiming that in every letter he's sent me as he's
executed move after move of the Lepanto. Austria
continues to refuse to discuss what anyone else is
saying, while asking me what I'm hearing, and Russia
has been silent, so far.
Eric the Oppressed. 8-)
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:55 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England, France and Germany in
'gutsy':
>Message France to England, Germany and Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>Have we reached a consensus?
Yes, we're attacking AIR with everything we have. 8-)
Eric the Hopeful.
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:56 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to France, Germany and Turkey in
'gutsy':
I didn't get any mail over the weekend, despite sending out messages
to each of the Eastern powers. Either they're circling the wagons and
reducing communication, or they just had other things going on this
weekend. I can try to push again and see if I can get some responses.
My moves stand as stated earlier (sorry Eric).
Brent
From - Mon Oct 01 20:50:59 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
>Message from France to England, Germany and Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>Have we reached a consensus?
Given Brent's refusal to take Swe, I'd reccomend
Lon HOLD, so that you can build F Mar. It's your
call, though.
Eric.
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:00 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England and Germany in
'gutsy':
>Message from England to France, Germany and Turkey
>
>My moves stand as stated earlier (sorry Eric).
How can you pressure Adam by moving Nwy-StP,
Yor-Lon? What's the next step from there? Sil-Ber
is a lock, so taking StP will, at best, keep him
from building this year, and it presents no credible
threat to him next year. I don't understand the
rationale, unless it's to continue the EG vs. F
campaign, and not worry about my elimination.
Eric the Confused.
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:01 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> The extension is not asked by me. Although I am very happy about the
> extension. I hope I haven't ruined my chances in gutsy 'cause I have been
> able to talk very little due to RL hurries.
No, that would be me. I was away for a long weekend remember?
I just got back. I had intended to check my email while I was
away but only got chance to do that once, when I pressed
wondering why you hadn't replied and left it at that,
so I've also been very quiet I'm afraid.
> There ain't a single
> person who can tell reliably what Italy is going to do.
Eric has been saying this for quite some time. :)
> If you here someone saying 'Italy is doing this and that'
> you know that he is talking
> nonsense. I don't know for sure myself, yet.
That'd be 'hear' rather than 'here', finally an
English phrase I'm sure enough of to correct you.
Here is a noun refering to a place, hear is a verb
meaning somthing similar to listen.
> About Attacking Austria now:
> -Keith is aware of the possible RI attack against him. This is why we
> _need_ to keep up RAI talks even if we plan to attack against Austria (I
> know I am bad example while I have been so silent).
> -No matter if we attack Keith or not let's keep press between AIR going.
Absolutely, you'll have noticed I sent a press to AIR at
the same time as I wrote to you asking if you agreed now
was a good time. It's important to keep Keith from guessing
at all.
> -AT will ally immediately if we attack Austria now. I am afraid that AT
> already have talked about co-operation.
I'm sure they will, and it'll take us a while to beat
them but we will have more centers than they will and
I think the west has been shaken up enough to also
take a while to resolve now so our job there is
already done. I don't think Keith is likely to
get this far out of position again, this is my
worry.
> -Turkey will be our common problem.
Turkey will be down to Three centers. Two fleets which
are concentrated on Bla rather than on you. If I took
Bul with F Bla we'd still have two fleets on Bla to
fight him with too. I do see how it's a hard decision
to make, but there is simply no way Keith will leave
himself this open again. Also, it's possible that
Turkey would be on our side, he definately wants us
to stab anyway.
> -I am willing to try to attack Austria. Because to get a build I need help
> from _both_ of you and Keith.
I'd sooner you were willing because you thought
it was the right time and that this is when we
stand the best chance of success. If the only
reason you want to do it is that you need me
to cut Bul's support then perhaps I'm underestimating
the difficulty of the task.
> At the moment there has been so little talks
> between us that I am afraid of 'Italy 0 builds'.
There's been little talk all around, I'm surprised
at how empty my email box is in general since I've
been away for three or four days. I think Keith
will order whatever we agree on between us in AIR
press.
> The attack against Austria:
> Italy takes Gre.
> Russia takes Bul + supports himself to Galicia.
> I need you to cut Bul S Gre. Otherwise I am left
> without a build. So, Bla-Bul(ec) is needed.
Yeah, having looked at the situation a little more
I see that we'd need to save my fleet from being
destroyed which is probably what Eric will try to
do. This means I need to order the F Bla into Bul
rather than trying to take Bud, for instance.
If we do this, then can I suggest taking Gre with
the A Tun rather than a fleet, also in press to AIR
you can agree to send everything after France if
that is what Keith demands since the more we
(reluctantly even) agree with Keith the more likely
he is to order as we expect.
In case there's any further trouble with communicating
I guess we should make sure we both know what the
other is doing. I propose we press each other at the
same time as AIR whenever we do that, even if it's
just to say "Attack on Austria still on, I've ordered
Tun - Gre" or whatever
For now, (and I'm about to write to AIR saying otherwise,
but that'll be lies) if the deadline passes without another
word I'll be ordering A Rum S F Bla - Bul(ec) and supporting myself
into Gal.
Adam..........
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:03 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
Brent,
sorry for the delay in writing, I've been away for the weekend
and couldn't access my email as easily as I thought. I'm back
now though.
> [The north certainly isn't safe at the moment, glad you've noticed
> and decided to bring that up with me rather than Steve.]
> Well, to be honest, I've brought it up with both of you. Now that I am in
> a position to secure my homeland, I'd like to secure my borders a bit
> farther out. I was still hoping we could come up with some sort of
> Scandanavian DMZ, but with the attack on Germany happening I don't think
> thats a possibility. So I'm looking at alternatives.
I really couldn't see Steve going for it anyway to be honest,
the DMZ idea was nice but probably unworkable.
> The way I see it,
> you've got all the units you need to take out Turkey, so the builds you get
> will be headed elsewhere, and I'm one of the most likely targets.
Well, maybe after Germany had been removed you would have
been. If Austria didn't seem more worthy of my attention.
I thought you were the Western Spy that was going to
take all of FG's supply centers while there back was to
you?
> The fact that you've been reluctant to say that you won't
> build in the North is also of concern,
I thought we had agreed, no fleet builds in StP(nc) or
Edi. I was even going to ask if I decided to build StP(Sc)
which is an option, but probably not my favourite one
at the moment. Presuming I get a build at all which I
probably won't this year.
> as is the fact that your idea of a safe North for me is ordering
> Swe - Nwy.
Well, you asked if there was a bounce that would make
it safer up there and the only move I could see, let
alone bounce, that would make anything safer at all was
Swe - Nwy since it stopped Nwy from taking StP, at least
while Nth was needed to regain Lon anyway. I'm not sure
why that would concern you, if you don't want me to
order it then just let me know why - presumably because
Nwy is headed elsewhere - and I'll just hold again.
> So lets try this again. What kind of assurances can you give me
> that I am not your next target once you pick up Ber and Con?
It wouldn't make a great deal of sense, Germany would
still have four or five SC's anyway, I'd be very reluctant
to start on yet another (THIRD!) front before the
Germans were reduced much further than that. Keith's
size is begining to be of concern to me already so
I imagine that he would be next on any hit-list if
I had to draw one up right now. I guess Steve has
been suggesting some pretty dark senario's to get
you all worked up against me huh? I wasn't even
here to write properly to keep that kind of thing
in proportion, sorry about that.
Italy and Austria have both used your name as a
potential operative in the West - mostly because
they think France and Germany will unite against
us and ignore your units at their backs. I'm sure
that's what AI both want to happen so that you
can pick up a few centers to weaken their defence.
As you suggested, that would usually leave four
powers who start to draw-whittle or else unite
against a soloist. I don't know why you think
you'd be the smallest power under these circumstances,
let alone the easiest to eliminate.
Is this assurance enough or do you want some more?
All I can offer are words unless you are prepared
to wait until my moves can show their validity,
what would you like to see me do?
Adam..........
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:05 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to France, Germany and Turkey in
'gutsy':
From my standpoint, the threat is that we can and will take Sweden
next year and continue the pressure unless Adam turns around. Nth - Nwy
should bounce, leaving me free to convoy an army across to Norway in the
Spring. Depending on Adam's reactions, I'll then have the option of
either going for Sweden, or moving the Army to St. Petersburg. Most
importantly to me, London is regained. Yes, I'm being a bit selfish. I
think I'm entitled though after being attacked or ignored by a number of
others being selfish.
[I don't understand the rationale, unless it's to continue the EG vs. F
campaign, and not worry about my elimination.]
Unless you're trying to instill fear in France and really break up the
Western alliance, this kind of comment does little good. I've told you
that I'm doing my best to rescue you. If I was not interested in that,
I'd never have joined this whole triple talk to begin with. It would be
much easier for me to focus on the West and punishing France for lying
to me and stealing a home center. But I'm not, instead I'm trying to
help organize the alliance to save you. Doesn't that mean anything to
you?
Debate is good for an alliance. Innuendo and bickering are not.
You've got three countries dropping their own conflicts to come fight
off your enemies. Hang in there, and try to work with us rather than
against us.
Brent
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:07 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
[I thought you were the Western Spy that was going to
take all of FG's supply centers while there back was to
you?]
Something like that. My role as a spy only lasts until I take the
first center though. From that point on it will be clear who's side I'm
on, and I'll be even more hated by the two of them than you. Anyways,
that was the scenario I was hoping for, I just wasn't sure that the AIR
"alliance" had agreed to that role.
[I thought we had agreed, no fleet builds in StP(nc) or Edi. ]
I guess I was under the impression that agreement was for last turn
only. If you are willing to extend that out to "until further notice" I
would feel much better.
[Presuming I get a build at all which I probably won't this year.]
Huh? How could you not get a build? Berlin is automatic.
[Well, you asked if there was a bounce that would make
it safer up there and the only move I could see, let
alone bounce, that would make anything safer at all was
Swe - Nwy since it stopped Nwy from taking StP, at least
while Nth was needed to regain Lon anyway. ]
Yah, I was talking more in the future with the bounce. I think
Swe-Nwy makes sense for this turn, but I was hoping for something a bit
less agressive in the future. Perhaps Swe - Nwy and Nth - Nwy? I can
defend North Sea with the same fleet, and neither of us has to worry
about losing a center.
[I guess Steve has
been suggesting some pretty dark senario's to get
you all worked up against me huh?]
Yes indeed...
[I don't know why you think
you'd be the smallest power under these circumstances,
let alone the easiest to eliminate.]
I'm just concerned about the general rule of alliances which is "Last
in, first out". While France and Germany are strong I still serve a
purpose. If the AIR were to continue and roll over them however, I
would become a roadblock, and I wouldn't give myself very good chances
against all three of you, even if I was larger.
[All I can offer are words unless you are prepared
to wait until my moves can show their validity,
what would you like to see me do?]
I think moves will be a very good indication of where everyone stands.
I just wanted to get some idea of where that stance was going to be, and
make sure that I wasn't being left out of consideration. It is good to
hear from you again, its been awfully silent lately (meaning everyone,
not just you). So, we bounce in Sweden, I retake London, and then you
show me with your build(s) that I'm really your friend?
Brent
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:09 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria and Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi guys, sorry I didn't write while I was away this
weekend afterall. Things got a bit hectic at home
(as usual) and the net access wasn't as smooth as
I'd hoped. Mostly it was just be being slack though,
so I'm sorry for that.
> > Austria:
> > a bul-con
> > f gre-bul(sc)
> > a tyr-somewhere else than Venice :-)
> >
> > Italy:
> > f aeg s bul-con
> > f ion-gre
> >
> > Russia:
> > f bla-ank
> > a rum s gre-bul(sc)
> > f sev s bla
> > a sil-ber
Well, not much point in ordering F Sev S Bla if
Bla is going to Ank. Unless you means F Sev S F Bal - Ank.
That might be an okay move, it keeps the fleet alive
at least, but I'd still lose Bla. More to the point
perhaps, we'd be depending on Eric not defending Con
properly. F Ank S F Con would keep the attack out unless
I support it with F Bla. I'm happy to keep the fleet
alive and push it into Arm instead if that's what
you two want but if we want Con guarenteed than we
need F Bla S X - Con.
> This is a better set of moves than those that Italy proposed earlier. I
> would prefer, for Austria's sake, that Italy move Ion-Tys and Aeg-Con
> supported by Bul, but this is something we should negotiate. I don't
> understand why Italy would want to allow France free access into Wes.
My diplomacy does seem to indicate a fairly united FG,
and England looks as though he's slowly being converted
by their press to him as well. I suspect that France will
try for the build in Mar if he does get Lon disbanded.
We can deny him this as we said earlier with an unwanted
support. F Bre/F Lon can't get into Wes until next fall
anyway, a fleet build in Nap could move to Wes in the
same time so it's not giving Wes away at all, though
certainly it would mean a slower turn than you'd want
against France. It's always hard for Italy to turn
quickly though.
> I am a bit worried that Italy is concerned about unified opposition
> against him and that he is hesitating at the plan to move against France.
> Is this true Italy? If so, we should unifiy our efforts to get England
> on our side.
I have spoken to England. It looks to me as though Steve has
painted some nightmarish senario's for him which end up
with England being eliminated (by Russia!) before Germany is.
It seems my Diplomacy with him has left him with some
doubts too. I've replied trying to shore that up as
much as possible, set the record straight and remind him
that the plan was for us to distract FG so he could get
in at their exposed behinds. Hopefully he'll see the
sense in this since I'm kind of relying on diplomacy to
keep from loosing StP or Swe this fall and I don't
think it's going all that well right now.
For what it's worth, I don't think Italy is concerned about
the unified opposition so much as that he prefers to take Gre
rather than Con to avoid having his centers spread all around
in undefendable positions. My guess is that he's more concerned
about an un-unified AIR than a unified FEG. I think his
worries are understandable but mistaken, he may not be
able to defend Con, but I at least have no intention
on a claim there anyway.
Adam........
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:11 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England, France and Germany in
'gutsy':
>Message from England to France, Germany and Turkey
>
>the threat is that we can and will take Sweden next year and continue the
>pressure unless Adam turns around.
That assumes that he doesn't get a build this
year, which is not a certainty, and that he doesn't
take a Center or two next year, which is a big
assumption, I think.
>Nth - Nwy should bounce, leaving me free to convoy an army across to Norway
>in the Spring.
You think so? I wouldn't bet on Swe-Nwy, at all.
What's the point, it annoys you, and given Nwy-StP,
Nth S Yor-Lon, Den-Swe, costs Adam two Centers.
>[I don't understand the rationale, unless it's to continue the EG vs. F
>campaign, and not worry about my elimination.] Unless you're trying to
>instill fear in France and break up the Western alliance, this kind of
>comment does little good.
Well, if you look carefully at my message that
you're quoting from, you'll see that I didn't include
France, so I wasn't trying to sow dissent. 8-) It's
just that from my perspective, taking Lon this year is
short-sighted, because it seriously hampers the EFG
effort against RI.
Eric the Opinionated.
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:12 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> I hope you enjoyed your long weekend.
It was good thanks. I'm back at home now but won't
be back at work until Thursday. Still, there's no
real plans to do anything other than relax until
then so I should have plenty of time for press.
> Raine is talking as though he'll attack Austria,
> though one can never tell with Raine until the moves
> come through...
He sent me some press saying that he hadn't been talking
at all and wasn't sure what he was going to do. Hummm.
> I hope you'll move Rum-Ser/Bud,
> Sev S Bla-Rum to offset your losses in the north. If
> you have any questions or concerns, feel free to drop
> me a line.
Well, Raine says that if we were to stab Austria
then he'd definately want Bul attacked so that
Gre would still be guarenteed even if Bul S Gre.
It's an outside worry but I might have to take
Bul rather than Ser/Bud if I did choose to go
after Keith. That takes some of the shine off
the whole idea, especially since Gre S Bul
isn't even as unlikely as Bul S Gre. There's
still plenty of talking to get done I guess.
Adam.....
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:13 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
[ Well, if you look carefully at my message that
you're quoting from, you'll see that I didn't include
France, so I wasn't trying to sow dissent. 8-)]
Doh! Now I'm the idiot. Sorry about that, but I wasn't paying close
enough attention to the recipients list to notice that he'd been left
off. Guess the cat is out of the bag now!
Brent
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:16 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
The best way to try to keep the fleet in Bla as well as cut Ank's support
would be:
Rum-Bla-Ank
Bla C Rum-Ank
Sev S Bla
Of course, Turkey could order:
Arm-Sev
Con-Bla
Ank S Con-Bla
which would destroy Russia's fleet. This is a lot of effort for Turkey.
Maybe he will do it. If he does, then he won't have his army in Smy,
where he would need it most.
Alternatively, if Russia wanted to keep his second fleet alive, he could
order Rum-Ukr and retreat Bla there.
Anyway, let me summarize the small problem we seem to be having, and have
you both chime in with your views.
We are having the problem that Italy would like to move West as soon as
possible, for instance Ion-Tys this turn. This is in conflict with
Italy's need to get a build this turn. Also, Italy would like to have
Gre rather than Con as his new supply center. Is this right?
So, one of two things needs to give. Either Italy can't move West right
now, which means that France will be able to move Mid-Wes in the Spring,
or else Italy is going to have to take Con rather than Gre.
Is this a fair statement of the problem, or am I misunderstanding
someone's position?
Austria
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:19 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
Steve,
Sorry I didn't write while I was away. I really meant to but
the almost constant hangover in the mornings when I planned
to write some press caught me out. Still, I'm back now.
> In case you aren't aware, there's a side disucssion going on, kind of a
> EFG+T newsgroup if you will, under the pretense that it will require a
> western triple to defend against AIR. I'm not sure if I buy into the
> assumption, but that's another matter. :)
I think it would depend on how strong AIR was, and I'm
getting press from both Raine and Keith worried about
how the other might stab them and isn't as commited to
the idea as they are. I'm also seriously considering
the stab myself and have talked to Raine about it.
I think your words alone may have been plenty to
break up this particular tripple!
> On thing that has come out of it is how to best attack Russia. Everyone
> believes the north is your weakness (no surprise there), but we disagree on
> how to attack. Brent and I are both arguing for Nwy - Stp while Eric and
> Rod want to take Sweden this turn and convoy an English army to Norway.
> Just so you know, I'm doing my damndest to protect Sweden while you and I
> discuss Berlin.
Well, it might be a good time to start wondering how you
can best take advantage of France this move. I want to give
up the attack and turn on Austria instead - I doubt he'll
get this far out of position again. However, I stand to
lose a center in Swe or StP if I can't get you and Brent
to leave them alone. I could take Berlin to offset that,
but that means not quitting and going for Keith.
If we can agree to leaving StP/Swe/Ber alone then I'll
support myself into Gal and find some Anti-A moves Raine
and I can agree on in the south.
So in short, I will agree to leave Berlin alone and go
to Gal if you agree to not support Brent into Swe, and
lobby for him not to move to StP either.
> Most of my personal communication lately has been with
> Keith and Raine.
Really? Raine has been quiet with me and claimed in his recent
press that he'd been quiet with everyone. Keith has written
his usual short messages though.
> Raine, at least, claims you and he are talking frequently
> and talking well.
This was true up until the weekend when we both shut up
basically. It would have been frustrating waiting for
his reply on stabbing Austria if I'd checked my email
at all. Heh.
> I like Raine's style and I would be open to some sort of GIR
> coordination. Raine also says he will attack Greece. I'm not
> positive he will, but he has never lied to me so far, including
> that Tyr - Mun thing last fall. :)
He's saying that he'll take Gre in press to AIR too, with Austria
getting Con. He might change that if he's willing to stab A,
which he's indicated isn't out of the question at least.
Hopefully we can get a few emails back and fourth tommorow
around lunchtime to sort out the details.
> Regarding your need for confidentially, I will tell anyone else
> that you are considering moving against Austria.
Freudian slip? I know that you'd not really have any
good reason to tell Austria but this game seems pretty
loose-lipped and even telling Brent could get a rumour
started. Which is tricky, since we need Brent to not
attack StP or Swe.
> Oh yeah, the other thing I want to say is: don't get too
> stretched out. If you take Berlin and Brent takes St Pete,
> you'd have three centers you couldn't support by yourself
> (Berlin, Warsaw, and Sweden). I know Russia is
> often spread a little thin, but only under the Juggernaut
> does that approach succeed. Under AR, both countries have
> to be a little more compact.
Indeed, I feel vunerable already which is why the
attack on Austria looks so nice. If we can sort out
the deal in StP/Swe/Ber then I should get a build
this year at least, otherwise it's unlikely, unless
I attacked Austria AND you at the same time
which would, of course, be suicide. That build can
shore up the holes, at least a little.
> I hope you're having a good holiday (if that's what it is).
Kind of, just a trip to see the parents and catch
a band while I'm up there. It was mostly good but
the family thing can get a bit depressing. There
seems to be a state of constant crisis up there
which is easier to ignore from London.
Adam..........
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:21 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> I hope you enjoyed your long weekend.
It was good thanks. I'm back at home now but won't
be back at work until Thursday. Still, there's no
real plans to do anything other than relax until
then so I should have plenty of time for press.
> Raine is talking as though he'll attack Austria,
> though one can never tell with Raine until the moves
> come through...
He sent me some press saying that he hadn't been talking
at all and wasn't sure what he was going to do. Hummm.
> I hope you'll move Rum-Ser/Bud,
> Sev S Bla-Rum to offset your losses in the north. If
> you have any questions or concerns, feel free to drop
> me a line.
Well, Raine says that if we were to stab Austria
then he'd definately want Bul attacked so that
Gre would still be guarenteed even if Bul S Gre.
It's an outside worry but I might have to take
Bul rather than Ser/Bud if I did choose to go
after Keith. That takes some of the shine off
the whole idea, especially since Gre S Bul
isn't even as unlikely as Bul S Gre. There's
still plenty of talking to get done I guess.
Adam.....
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:22 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria and Italy in 'gutsy':
> Alternatively, if Russia wanted to keep his second fleet alive, he could
> order Rum-Ukr and retreat Bla there.
That might work. I'm not sure how important the fleet is
compared to doing something about the north, but I'll
keep it in mind and let you know what I decide.
As I noted though, in order to be sure of Con you
need F Bla to support the move there, otherwise
F Ank could support Con and all would be lost,
you've both suggested moves which have F Bla
doing something other than that now, are you
saying you don't want that support?
> We are having the problem that Italy would like to move West as soon as
> possible, for instance Ion-Tys this turn. This is in conflict with
> Italy's need to get a build this turn. Also, Italy would like to have
> Gre rather than Con as his new supply center. Is this right?
>
> So, one of two things needs to give. Either Italy can't move West right
> now, which means that France will be able to move Mid-Wes in the Spring,
> or else Italy is going to have to take Con rather than Gre.
Only Raine can answer that but it sounds right to me.
Adam.......
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:23 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Okay, we're still planning to go after Austria, right?
It might be worth agreeing with him to move on France
and take Con yourself since we wouldn't be doing
these moves anyway.
Depends on how good a liar you are I guess.
Adam.....
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:25 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Message sent to Germany:
Ah damn, that should have gone to Turkey. Oh
well, no harm done except it's obvious that he
knows I'm thinking about the stab too. He
suggested it about the same time you did,
of course.
You'll have also noticed the exact nature of
the problem I have to sort out with Raine
there. I'm sure we'll do so, it's just
a matter of who's arse we cover the most.
Adam.......
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:26 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
> As I noted though, in order to be sure of Con you
> need F Bla to support the move there, otherwise
> F Ank could support Con and all would be lost,
> you've both suggested moves which have F Bla
> doing something other than that now, are you
> saying you don't want that support?
Your fleet can either support something to Con, or it can move (or
convoy) to Ank to cut support. Either way gives the same effect.
Austria
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:27 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> > Raine is talking as though he'll attack Austria,
> > though one can never tell with Raine until the > moves come through...
>
>He sent me some press saying that he hadn't been talking
>at all and wasn't sure what he was going to do. Hummm.
Raine has consistently sent me friendly press, saying
that he wants to work with me, while actually carrying
out the Lepanto. He tailors his messages to the
audience much more than I do, and he undoubtedly doesn't
want you to tell Keith that he's talking to me, and
forming a stronger AR as a result.
>Well, Raine says that if we were to stab Austria
>then he'd definitely want Bul attacked so that
>Gre would still be guaranteed even if Bul S Gre.
>It's an outside worry but I might have to take
>Bul rather than Ser/Bud if I did choose to go
>after Keith. That takes some of the shine off
>the whole idea, especially since Gre S Bul
>isn't even as unlikely as Bul S Gre.
Yes, he tried to convince me to cut Bul S Gre as well.
He's very much a, "Do this my way, or I won't cooperate
with you", sort. I can live with Rum S Bla-Bul/EC,
but if you ask Keith for Bul S Bla-Con, or Bul & Bla
S Aeg-Con, then you should be able to take Ser, and
move Bla-Rum, while Raine takes Greece. Gre S Bul is
more likely than Bul S Gre, I think.
Eric.
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:28 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
> Something like that. My role as a spy only lasts until I take the
> first center though. From that point on it will be clear who's side I'm
> on, and I'll be even more hated by the two of them than you. Anyways,
> that was the scenario I was hoping for, I just wasn't sure that the AIR
> "alliance" had agreed to that role.
It's not one that requires a lot of agreement, at
least not from A or I anyway. Keith and Raine definately
want that to happen though, they're almost counting on
it.
> [I thought we had agreed, no fleet builds in StP(nc) or Edi. ]
> I guess I was under the impression that agreement was for last turn
> only. If you are willing to extend that out to "until further notice" I
> would feel much better.
Sure, I'd talk with you before building anything other
than an army in StP. I'd probably mention it even if
it was going to be an army.
> [Presuming I get a build at all which I probably won't this year.]
> Huh? How could you not get a build? Berlin is automatic.
Well, I keep slipping between being convinced that
I'll get Berlin and so build and knowing that you
will take Swe with German help. If you did that
I'd get no build but if we can agree that you won't
take either swe or StP then I can definately promise
not to build F StP(nc) - though a south coast fleet
would help against Germany quite a lot and keep Austria
happy. Again, I won't build fleets in StP without your
permission either way. Well, I might if you start taking
my centers but I won't get a build then so the promise
would be a bit pointless anyway.
> Yah, I was talking more in the future with the bounce. I think
> Swe-Nwy makes sense for this turn, but I was hoping for something a bit
> less agressive in the future.
Oh, I was definately only talking about this turn, the Swe-Nwy
move does nothing useful anyway if you can move Nth - Nwy to
bounce it out while you take StP. It only works because Nth
will be taking London. If GEF are as together as some
seem to think then it wouldn't work even then - Eng would
leave of it's own accord.
> Perhaps Swe - Nwy and Nth - Nwy? I can
> defend North Sea with the same fleet, and neither of us has to worry
> about losing a center.
That sounds good, once Nwy is empty. I'd have thought you
will want to call that off so you can use Nth to support/Convoy
quite often though.
> I'm just concerned about the general rule of alliances
> which is "Last in, first out".
That may be true in some games but I'm pretty sure
it'd be 'smallest left first out' with this game,
and definately any game where I was draw-whittling.
And as I said, if there's no draw-whittling going
on then a stop-the-solo would probably need everyone
who's left anyway.
> I think moves will be a very good indication of where everyone stands.
> I just wanted to get some idea of where that stance was going to be, and
> make sure that I wasn't being left out of consideration.
I don't want to talk too much about exactly what
my moves will be, but I don't mind making promises
like not building fleets or definately nothing
against the English. It's tricky when some
amount of secrecy might be required, especially
since I'm getting the impression that this game
is fairly loose-lipped, accidental leaks could
be easy. For instance, Berlin is guarenteed but
if Germany knew for a fact I was intending to
take it he would know for a fact he could keep
Munich which might influence what he does
with Ruh and Boh at least.
> It is good to hear from you again, its been awfully
> silent lately (meaning everyone, not just you).
Well, the mail-box always seems full when you get
back from a few days away. I guess it's probably not
a lot of press for three days though, so it's
been fairly quiet here too.
> So, we bounce in Sweden, I retake London, and then you
> show me with your build(s) that I'm really your friend?
This sounds good, but I'm not sure how you'll manage
to convince GF you're on their side if you don't try
to take Swe or StP. I guess you just stall and say
you can't tust 'em until F Lon is disbanded or
something?
I'm sure you'll know I'm not remotely interested
if fighting with you by the time the builds come
though. I'll also know if you're interested in
fighting me by then too if I get to keep Swe
I suppose.
Adam.......
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:30 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I hope your weekend was good. Did you have any time to consider dip during
your absence?
If so, are you at all interested in GIR cooperation? If you are, I think a
coordinated attack on Bulgaria and Greece would be immensely successful. If
you and Raine can do that and you are willing to leave Berlin alone, I'm
quite willing to leave Sweden alone. I'm still getting pressure to support
Brent into Sweden, but I'm sure I can work that out if we can come to some
sort of agreement.
I know Berlin is incredibly tempting, but it really might not be your best
move. Of course I'm going to say that, but I think your best bet is to
consolidate your armies against Austria. Support Silesia into Galicia with
an attack on Bulgaria sets you up very well for next year. With Keith
losing a center, you and Raine could make immediate gains (especially if
Raine convoys).
Write if you can. I think we still have another day to talk.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:33 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria and Italy in 'gutsy':
> Your fleet can either support something to Con, or it can move (or
> convoy) to Ank to cut support. Either way gives the same effect.
Ah, attacking Ank does do that yeah, but I thought you
both suggested F Sev S F Bla - Arm which wouldn't.
I'll cut Ank or else support your move to Con then.
Make sure you let me know which unit is actually
moving there.
Adam.........
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:34 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Raine has consistently sent me friendly press, saying
> that he wants to work with me, while actually carrying
> out the Lepanto. He tailors his messages to the
> audience much more than I do, and he undoubtedly doesn't
> want you to tell Keith that he's talking to me, and
> forming a stronger AR as a result.
Ah, he was only really saying he was quiet over
the weekend I think, in general he's been as
frequent a writer as anyone else.
> Yes, he tried to convince me to cut Bul S Gre as well.
> He's very much a, "Do this my way, or I won't cooperate
> with you", sort.
My way or the highway. Yeah, there's not a lot of
room for compromise there but it should be okay
as long as his goals match mine, which they should
do here.
> I can live with Rum S Bla-Bul/EC,
> but if you ask Keith for Bul S Bla-Con, or Bul & Bla
> S Aeg-Con, then you should be able to take Ser, and
> move Bla-Rum, while Raine takes Greece.
True, I suppose I'd have to decide if I'd sooner
have an army behind Keith's lines or keep that
fleet alive around Bla.
> Gre S Bul is more likely than Bul S Gre, I think.
Yeah, but after I wrote you I rememberd that
Gre's support to anything will be cut by Italy
if we move anyway so it's pretty pointless.
Adam......
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:35 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> I hope your weekend was good. Did you have any
> time to consider dip during your absence?
Hummm, sounds a little like our press my have
crossed in transit. I had a good time and did
only a little thinking about dip and no writing
press but I did get (and read today) replies
to most of what I'd written already.
> If so, are you at all interested in GIR cooperation? If you are, I think a
> coordinated attack on Bulgaria and Greece would be immensely successful.
As do I, I've talked to Raine about it and
he's not as keen as I am but it looks like,
after a few details are sorted out, we'll
be willing to try it.
> If you and Raine can do that and you are willing to leave Berlin alone, I'm
> quite willing to leave Sweden alone. I'm still getting pressure to support
> Brent into Sweden, but I'm sure I can work that out if we can come to some
> sort of agreement.
I guess "I need to move Den to Kie to take ber back next year"
would be a good start, but it might be too easily shot down.
There's always the simple agreeing and then not following
throught I suppose. My other press to you basically offered
this same deal (Leave Swe alone and I'll leave Ber alone
and go after Keith) so assuming I can get the details
with Raine sorted tommorow (he'll be at home now and I
think he plays mostly from work), which should be a snap
if we can get a couple of press back and fourth, we have
a deal. I'll let you know how it goes anyway.
> I know Berlin is incredibly tempting, but it really might
> not be your best move. Of course I'm going to say that,
> but I think your best bet is to consolidate your armies
> against Austria.
As I pointed out to Raine, he's unlikely to be this
far out of possition again.
> Support Silesia into Galicia with an attack on Bulgaria
> sets you up very well for next year. With Keith
> losing a center, you and Raine could make immediate
> gains (especially if Raine convoys).
Sounds like you've missed the option where I try
and shift A Rum into Bud/Ser instead of attacking
Bul, but all things are being considered. My current
guess is the Bla - Bul move since that protects my
fleet too.
> Write if you can. I think we still have another day to talk.
39 hours according to my best guess. Hopefully you've
already got my other press by now anyway.
Adam.........
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:37 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
Thanks for getting back to me. I think I'll have a little time this evening
and tomorrow to write some press. If there's anything you'd like me to say
to the other players, let me know.
If I remember your last couple of letters, you had two basic questions:
1) Why do I think you and Adam are on good terms?
He has hinted at it, but he hasn't come right out and said so. I think
everyone believes AR is the primary part of the supposed AIR alliance, but
it also seems so vulnerable to me. Cooperation between you and Adam looks
like an excellent option. You each get a center (Greece and Bulgaria),
while Keith loses one. Russia almost always goes through Austria first and
that only threatens Italy when there's a juggernaut. Plus, Greece would
help you no matter what your goals are and Bulgaria would help Adam no
matter what his goals are.
2) How do we make GIR happen?
For me, the key point is that Adam stays out of Berlin. I know Berlin is
tempting for Adam, but I think that would stretch him out too much. He
would have Sweden, Berlin, and Warsaw exposed. In exchange, I would be
willing to let Adam keep Sweden. Right now, I'm being encouraged to help
Norway into Sweden. I really don't want to be surrounded by England like
that, so I'm more inclined to work with Adam than against him.
On the other front, you and I couldn't continue working against France. I
will probably have to support Burgundy back into Munich, but we'll see.
I've been talking to Keith a bit, too. Maybe he will leave Munich alone. I
just don't know.
Write when you can. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:38 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
>Message from Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>True, I suppose I'd have to decide if I'd sooner
>have an army behind Keith's lines or keep that
>fleet alive around Bla.
The Army behind the lines also gives you the
option to work with me, if Raine's demands become
unreasonable. ;^}
> > Gre S Bul is more likely than Bul S Gre, I think.
>
>Yeah, but after I wrote you I remembered that
>Gre's support to anything will be cut by Italy
>if we move anyway so it's pretty pointless.
Just make sure you get a clear-cut commitment to
an order attacking Greece. Raine has a habit of
discussing hypothetical orders, but never actually
committing to a given course, and then saying, "Well,
I never promised that I'd move that way..."
Eric the Burned. 8-)
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:40 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
> Given Brent's refusal to take Swe, I'd reccomend
> Lon HOLD, so that you can build F Mar.
A build would be nice, but I don't want to piss England off at this time. My
hold on Lon is tenuous anyway, and it would be quite a quagmire if he decided
to focus on retaliation.
Rod
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:42 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
How have you been lately? We haven't spoken directly for a bit. My fault.
I understand your comment in one of the EFG+T letters where you said that
Adam can afford to ignore a fleet in St Pete. I've played Russia before
where I lost Sweden and St Pete to fleets, but because I was making inroads
into Austria, it didn't matter much. So...I undertand.
I'm just concerned about being too surrounded by English units If Brent
were to take Sweden, I'd be in big trouble in Denmark. As it is, I kind of
like having Sweden in Russian hands for a turn or two. That kind of
balances things a bit.
I'm curious what you think of your situation. From where I sit, it looks
like you can afford to hold for a turn and see how things develop. Is that
what you're thinking?
Also, obviously the best thing for both of us is that A or R turn on the
other. Have you heard anything that makes you optimistic here?
Thanks. Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 01 20:51:50 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Oops, I guess I missed the last email from you. The last one I got was
right before you were leaving for the weekend.
In that letter, you did mention Bud and Ser, but I forgot to mention it in
my letters to you. I would definitely welcome an attack on either one. Of
the two, Rum - Ser is more likely, don't you think? I agree with you that
Keith is liable to cover Bud just because he can, whether or not he attacks
Munich.
Regarding Brent and Sweden, I've heard some questionable proposals from him,
and Eric as well. One of the ideas that has floated around is convoying the
army to Norway while I support Norway into Sweden. I pretty much nixed that
because it would leave Denmark completely surrounded. Plus, there's no way
I could trust Brent would even follow through. Why would he *not* retake
London?
If he is to guarantee himself London (which he says he really wants), he
only has one unit to work with in the north. As I write to you, I have
received no sort of confirmation from him what he will do. I imagine that
you might even keep both Sweden and St Pete. I believe you and Brent have
been talking a fair bit, so this might be old news.
Regarding Raine, he seems to commit in his press right at the last minute.
I imagine since you are both in Europe, you have a little more time to work
out these things than if you had to coordinate with someone in the States.
That leaves us. I will definitely not support Norway into Sweden not only
because I want to keep Berlin, but also because I truly do like a balance of
power in Scandanavia. I figure that if you do take Berlin I pretty much
will have no choice but to work with Brent later. But, I'd prefer to hold
off that sort of commitment as long as possible. And, if you do get a build
this year, you still have the option of building in St Pete.
Write if you can, maybe we can exchange a couple of more letters before the
deadline.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Mon Oct 01 22:31:41 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Again, forgive my lack of press. As I said before, I've been fairly well
distracted with AIR concerns.
Thats a tough one. Of all the players, they are the two I feel I know the
least about. Here's what I can tell you.
> Adam has really been pushing this attack on you for a while, claiming
> that it is to help me.
That's to be expected, but what's funny here is that Keith has said the same
thing. Maybe I totally misread Adam and he totally suckered me in. I get
the feeling he might consider turn his one chance at glory. Does my
impression fit with yours?
If I were him and I did consider this my one chance to strike, I would hope
to keep both Sweden and St Pete. I know you and he have written a lot;
which is more likely, that you guarantee yourself London or that you strike
at Russia?
The reason I'm curious as to your answer is that I'm a little itchy about
Belgium. I can't quite imagine you and Rod cooperating like this with a
French fleet still in London, but I'm nervous just the same. That's one of
the reasons I might try Bur - Ruh and Ruh - Kie.
Regarding France, I've received a request from Raine to continue my attack.
He hasn't made any serious proposal (like support into Marseilles or
anything) so I'm taking it with a *big* grain of salt, but I'd like to know
what you think. There might be chance for a small form of EGI in the west.
Probably not because Piedmont *has* to cover Venice, but the three of us
should probably talk nonetheless.
One last thought:
> Keith on the other hand seems to have gotten pulled into this last minute,
> or at least he claims that. He has told me though that he feels like he
> can't change positions at this point.
Actually, two thoughts:
1) Keith has never "gotten pulled" into something in his life. He is the
driver, not the drivee.
2) The fact that he says he can't change his mind now is good enough news
for me. I've heard that from him before. :)
Thanks for writing.
- Steve (with fingers crossed)
From - Tue Oct 02 05:21:52 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> I think that's a great idea, but the trick is getting him to agree to
> Eric's suggestion. I think he has his heart set on reclaiming Lon.
I do too. I'd be quite surprised if he jumped down Russia's throat too
hard. Maybe St Pete, but none of this convoy stuff; that's just plain
silly. Actually, if I were him, I'd guarantee London and hold Norway. That
gives him a turn to see which way the wind blows. Plus, a big Russia only
galvanizes the rest of the board against him. If I were Brent, I'd take my
fourth center and go home smiling.
>> I might even attack the North Sea at the same time; that would really
>> surprise Brent.
>
> Fine with me. :-)
I thought it would be. :)
Seriously though, I still might. Assuming my press to AR has been
effective, this could be my best chance to get something done. Sometimes
positional moves in the fall can really pay off.
> I agree. You just need to get those monkeys off your back, then we
> can get back to work. ;-)
What monkeys? More like flies really. LOL
Write if you can; I like hearing from you. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 02 05:23:33 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
[which is more likely, that you guarantee yourself London or that you strike
at Russia?]
I don't feel any need to use North to take London. The only way I could
not get it is if Rod goes back on his word. I'm still going to pick up one
center from Russia, and Rod knows where that build would be. So using North
to take London would be overkill. And Adam and I have already agreed on a
bounce in Norway (he just thinks he's going to be bouncing the fleet thats
already there).
[ I can't quite imagine you and Rod cooperating like this with a
French fleet still in London, but I'm nervous just the same. That's one of
the reasons I might try Bur - Ruh and Ruh - Kie.]
I don't think its a bad move, but not because you have to worry about me.
[Regarding France, I've received a request from Raine to continue my
attack.]
I'll be honest in saying I have not been impressed with Raine so far. He
hasn't had any solid ideas or convincing arguments so far. I think any
alliance that includes him would have to do so only temporarily.
[1) Keith has never "gotten pulled" into something in his life. He is the
driver, not the drivee.]
Thats what everyone else seems to think too, so I guess I'll have to trust
your experience with him.
From - Tue Oct 02 05:23:44 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Austria in 'gutsy':
Adam claims that both you and Raine have agreed with the idea of my
playing the undercover agent in the Western alliance. However, I haven't
heard from either of you in quite a while, so I'm a bit curious about what
that signifies. If I had to guess, I would suspect it means that Adam is
either lying, or he's out of touch with what is really going on. Of course,
it may just be that you've both had busy weekends.
For what its worth, I don't have any real attachment to one alliance or
the other in the East. My first choice would be to be connected with you
and Adam as I said earlier, but if the winds are blowing a different way , I
don't mind. My main goal is to get a strong connection with whoever is in
control over there. I guess the easiest way to find that out will be to
watch the moves this Fall, but I was hoping to get a preliminary guess from
you. Thanks.
Brent
From - Tue Oct 02 05:24:23 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
> I don't feel any need to use North to take London. The only way I
> could not get it is if Rod goes back on his word.
I myself have no reason not to trust Rod's word, so you're probably safe.
If you think you can afford to use the North Sea to bounce Adam, I'd say go
for it. To be candid, though, I would be surprised if Rod voluntarily
vacated London. That just doesn't seem right.
> I'll be honest in saying I have not been impressed with Raine so far. He
> hasn't had any solid ideas or convincing arguments so far. I think any
> alliance that includes him would have to do so only temporarily.
I agree with your assessment, with one small caveat. Many people aren't
that concerned about convincing arguments; he could have many more friends
than you or I think. Offhand, I don't think he does, but I must say that so
far I do like him; Tyr - Mun aside, of course. :)
>> 1) Keith has never "gotten pulled" into something in his life. He is
>> the driver, not the drivee.
>
> Thats what everyone else seems to think too, so I guess I'll have to
> trust your experience with him.
The other thing about Keith is that he is one solo away from winning the
Vermont Group No-Press tourney. That's no small honor. Since NP is his
game of choice, I suspect he is distracted at the moment. Once that
finishes, he will become fully engaged. I understand Eric is in a similar
situation in Titleist, but I have no idea how well he is doing.
As for me, I'm stuck with the unenviable position of trying to out-think and
out-press all four of my neighbors. I know you just went through a similar
thing with London, but it is a bit tricky nonetheless. No matter what we
each do this turn, though, I want you to know that I am still quite willing
to work together in the future. We have opportunities for cooperation in
both the north and west.
I hope to talk soon. I appreciate your letters; please write when you can.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 02 05:25:52 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to England in 'gutsy':
> Adam claims that both you and Raine have agreed with the idea of my
> playing the undercover agent in the Western alliance.
I have not heard from Italy in a while. I think he must be away or
something. I have stressed to them the importance of getting help from
you. I think you will benefit from this more than they will. If Russia
attacks Germany (with my help) and Italy attacks France, I think that you
will get more French and German centers than either Russia or Italy will.
This won't work unless Italy attacks France. I think Italy is
hesitating. He needs to be convinced that he needs to attack France now
(especially if France is preparing a counterattack).
You can pretend to be friendly to France and Russia at first, but you
will really be setting them up for big stabs (perhaps at the same time).
I think you and I are best allies. Once France or Germany is crushed
with your help, then I would like to work with you to squeeze out the
players that are between us.
> However, I haven't
> heard from either of you in quite a while, so I'm a bit curious about what
> that signifies. If I had to guess, I would suspect it means that Adam is
> either lying, or he's out of touch with what is really going on. Of course,
> it may just be that you've both had busy weekends.
I had a busy weekend--I just got married.
> For what its worth, I don't have any real attachment to one alliance or
> the other in the East. My first choice would be to be connected with you
> and Adam as I said earlier, but if the winds are blowing a different way , I
> don't mind. My main goal is to get a strong connection with whoever is in
> control over there. I guess the easiest way to find that out will be to
> watch the moves this Fall, but I was hoping to get a preliminary guess from
> you. Thanks.
I don't know that any one person is in control. My communication with
Russia suggests that he wants to work with me. Italy, though, is
hesistant to move against France, I think. I wonder if he is planning to
attack me.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 02 05:45:03 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I had forgotten that Keith was getting married. That is why Keith have
been silent. Main reason to attack Austria was the silence from Keith and
that got be worried. I would not hurry to attack Keith right away. Let's
keep the RAI option open, too.
There has been talks about western triple to counter RAI. After I have
listened to all the players I have the feeling that England is most likely
moving to Stp _and_ taking London back. I don't know if Brent will get
London back even without a fight. That is a possibility.
I think I am not winning much by attacking Austria. It really wasn't my
reason to attack Austria to get a build. It was that I was afraid of
Keith's intentions. You said also that Keith is most probably doind what
we agree to do. I think we have to take the risk of a bit stronger
Austria. We are able to hit him down when Turkey is weaker. At the moment
Turkey is still a factor. I mean, Italy with 4 units isn't stronger than
Turkey with 3 units. So I would like to reduce Eric's power before
stabbing Keith.
I'll talk to you more later. I think it was important to say to you that I
am not fully commited to attack Austria, yet.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:03 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
> How have you been lately? We haven't spoken directly for a bit. My
fault.
Well, no not entirely. I am capable of writing to someone first in a
turn, I
just haven't been doing much of that lately. 8-)
> I understand your comment in one of the EFG+T letters where you said that
> Adam can afford to ignore a fleet in St Pete. I've played Russia before
> where I lost Sweden and St Pete to fleets, but because I was making
inroads
> into Austria, it didn't matter much. So...I undertand.
Exactly.
> I'm just concerned about being too surrounded by English units If Brent
> were to take Sweden, I'd be in big trouble in Denmark. As it is, I kind
> of like having Sweden in Russian hands for a turn or two. That kind of
> balances things a bit.
I see England building two as a bigger threat to you than him taking
Swe,
but given his poor relationship with Rod, I don't see him stabbing you at
all,
let alone, anytime soon.
> I'm curious what you think of your situation. From where I sit, it looks
> like you can afford to hold for a turn and see how things develop. Is
that
> what you're thinking?
Pretty much. Given AIR cooperation, I'll lose Con, but hopefully both
Adam and Raine see the stab potential, and they'll take Gre and Ser/Bud,
instead. If they do continue to cooperate, however, and Brent take Lon,
and doesn't Convoy to Nwy, I'm toast. There will be no threat to Russia,
and no threat to Italy, and they'll have no reason to not eliminate me, and
then stab Keith. For my sake, I urge you to reconsider.
Thanks,
Eric the Desparate. 8-)
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:05 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria and Russia in
'gutsy':
Dear Allies,
I am so happy to see you both back and active!
I have heard rumours about EGF triple alliance. I am not sure if both FG
are serious about it but I could believe that E would like the western
triple. Adam, prepare to see Nwy-Stp. We have to remember that Brent is
desperate.
> The best way to try to keep the fleet in Bla as well as cut Ank's support
> would be:
>
> Rum-Bla-Ank
> Bla C Rum-Ank
> Sev S Bla
>
> Of course, Turkey could order:
>
> Arm-Sev
> Con-Bla
> Ank S Con-Bla
I believe Turkey will order like you say. The other alternative is to play
it safe and move Arm-Smy, Ank S Con and Con tries to get one of us on
Eric's side.
> Alternatively, if Russia wanted to keep his second fleet alive, he could
> order Rum-Ukr and retreat Bla there.
I think there is no need to keep the 2nd Russian fleet alive. How about
you Adam? In the long run it would cause friction to our relations.
> We are having the problem that Italy would like to move West as soon as
> possible, for instance Ion-Tys this turn. This is in conflict with
> Italy's need to get a build this turn. Also, Italy would like to have
> Gre rather than Con as his new supply center. Is this right?
No, no! I am not willing to move west as soon as possible! I would rather
move against Turkey. BUT I think _you_ would appreciate if I would go west
to make your life easier. I understand the problem of RAI. You are in the
middle. I _want_ RAI to work that is why I am talking about the
possibility to go west. You are right about my desire to get a build.
I can easily see that I am leaving my eastern front open if I move west
and I would like to hear how you would be willing to make my life easier.
I can see the possible AR future: Russia heads north, Austria heads toward
Italy and at the same time you can either keep Eric alive or destroy him
with only a couple of units. I don't believe you are planning this but it
certainly is possible like it is possible that IR will attack A.
> So, one of two things needs to give. Either Italy can't move West right
> now, which means that France will be able to move Mid-Wes in the Spring,
> or else Italy is going to have to take Con rather than Gre.
>
> Is this a fair statement of the problem, or am I misunderstanding
> someone's position?
You got it right. Just remember that I am not willing to west before
Turkey is killed. I would go west only to help keeping RAI together. One
thing I'd like to add is the uncertainty of my position. You are about to
grow for sure. My build depends on RAI co-operation. I hope I am not
looking too tempting to you as a target.
To summarize the current situation of RAI (my view of course):
-Austria is getting build.
-Russia is most likely losing one and getting one.
-My build depends on our level of co-operation.
So I propose the following:
I think it is best for you two to get Munich now and Berlin next but you
can do it the way you want. I assume that you don't have a similar chance
soon.
Plan A:
-------
Austria gets Mun and Con
Russia gets Bul (not Berlin)
Italy gets Gre
it is one build each. I know this is a bit complicated but Turkey would
fall down one.
Plan B:
-------
Austria gets Bul
Russia gets Ber (or Mun you can decide it behind my back)
Italy gets Con and would concentrate to east.
I think B is the easiest to arrange. In future I'd like to see only one
southern Russian fleet. No Ausrtian fleets. I would concentrate in
building fleets. How does it sound?
Yours,
Raine
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:07 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I would like to continue in RAI for a little longer. If I am in east with
my forces we will get the chance to stab Ausrtia later. I really would
like to go like this.
Have you talked about the possibility of Sil-Mun instead of Sil-Ber?
I will order Aeg-Con if we don't agree something else. I am still open to
other plans. Although I would prefer to attack Austria later, not yet.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:13 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy and Turkey in 'gutsy':
Well, time to see whether I've been lied to all this time. A retreat to
Gascony should make it quite easy for the two of you to eliminate France
without any risk to yourselves. Judging by the fact that France gave you
the support I would guess you have other things in mind though. Care to
prove me wrong?
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:14 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy and Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hehe, sorry for the confusion. Wrong game!
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:15 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria and Italy in 'gutsy':
> I have heard rumours about EGF triple alliance. I am not sure if both FG
> are serious about it but I could believe that E would like the western
> triple. Adam, prepare to see Nwy-Stp. We have to remember that Brent is
> desperate.
There's more than just a rumour, trust me. France is actively
campaigning for it and Steve in Germany is pretty much convinced
it's needed. Believe it or not, the weakest link in that FEG
triple is Brent. He wants to be our spy instead. He would
like to see Germany and France turn around then pick off the
supply centers that are left behind. He told me that he finds
a tripple usually ends up with the three of us, and one of them,
draw-whittling and he'd like to be big on French and German
centers so that he's not whittled out.
> > Of course, Turkey could order:
> >
> > Arm-Sev
> > Con-Bla
> > Ank S Con-Bla
>
> I believe Turkey will order like you say. The other alternative is to play
> it safe and move Arm-Smy, Ank S Con and Con tries to get one of us on
> Eric's side.
This is what Eric /says/ he'll order anyway. He's probably just
trying to scare me I guess. Leaving Smy open and Con unsupported
would surely show where he wants his centers to go: Not me.
> I think there is no need to keep the 2nd Russian fleet alive. How about
> you Adam? In the long run it would cause friction to our relations.
In the long term it wouldn't be needed, sure, but while Turkey still
has two fleets I kinda want two fleets to fight him. I expect
him to be down to one fleet after the builds though.
I'll lose the fleet most likely, but a condition
has to be that no fleets, Russian Italian or Austrian, sail
through Con at all. Smy can be taken next year and I'll
claim Ank as well - there should be no need for fleets
to go to Con at all since Italy doesn't want to take it
at this time.
> No, no! I am not willing to move west as soon as possible! I would rather
> move against Turkey.
This is what's weird, Turkey will be dead, kaput, done and gone
at the end of next year. It takes Italy a while to turn around
to the west and the sooner he starts the better. You've said
yourself that EFG are comming after us. Strikes me that the
sooner Italy can ensure our control of the Western Med
the better.
> You got it right. Just remember that I am not willing to west before
> Turkey is killed.
I still maintain that Turkey IS already killed. This fall he looses
Bul and Con, so he's down to two units. Maybe he'll keep both
fleets, but that would leave Smy completely open in the spring
and in the fall we can support into Ank. The attack on Turkey
is over and it needs no more units.
> I would go west only to help keeping RAI together. One
> thing I'd like to add is the uncertainty of my position. You are about to
> grow for sure. My build depends on RAI co-operation. I hope I am not
> looking too tempting to you as a target.
I'm not about to grow at all most likely. It's possible but
it depends on how Brent takes my constant press to him.
Obviously I can't reach Italy even if it was tempting!
> So I propose the following:
>
> Plan A:
> -------
> Austria gets Mun and Con
> Russia gets Bul (not Berlin)
> Italy gets Gre
> it is one build each. I know this is a bit complicated but Turkey would
> fall down one.
Not exactly one build each of course since I loose StP or Swe
with all likelyhood. Also, if I'm taking Bul, I'm doing it
with the F bla, yeah? I thought you wanted that to be disbanded.
> Plan B:
> -------
> Austria gets Bul
> Russia gets Ber (or Mun you can decide it behind my back)
> Italy gets Con and would concentrate to east.
>
> I think B is the easiest to arrange. In future I'd like to see only one
> southern Russian fleet. No Ausrtian fleets. I would concentrate in
> building fleets. How does it sound?
I don't mind seeing an Italian fleet in Con this fall, but
it has to sail to Smy next year and never return.
I guess Raine does have a point, if we expect him to go West
then the most sensible center for him to take would be Gre.
Anything else spreds himself thinly and undefendably. Having
Con and Smy while Austria stays in Greece would leave an
Italian 'island' which would be easy for RA to take.
We're rapidly running out of time too, 21 hours to the
deadline now. My provisional orders are:
A Sil - Ber
A War - Sil
F Sev S F Bla
F Bla S A Bul - Con
A Rum S F Gre - Bul(sc)
F Swe - Nwy
The F Swe stands a little chance of taking Norway if
Brent tries for StP. I've told him I intend to do that
so it should reduce his options to require German
co-operation to take a center from me at least, and
that means they argue over who gets the center.
Looks to me like Austria should take Con and Italy
take Gre. Anything else just means we'll have to
swap and change centers later anyway.
Adam.............
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:17 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I can easily see that I am leaving my eastern front open if I move west
> and I would like to hear how you would be willing to make my life easier.
> I can see the possible AR future: Russia heads north, Austria heads toward
> Italy and at the same time you can either keep Eric alive or destroy him
> with only a couple of units. I don't believe you are planning this but it
> certainly is possible like it is possible that IR will attack A.
This isn't all that bad an idea you know. It means we have to
convince Italy to move West ASAP which I've tried to do. We
give him Gre rather than Con becaue that's the only way we'll
talk him into going in that direction.
It's a bit long-term considering the deadline is so close
but Scandanavia will take a while to sort out, you'll
need something to do in the meantime - Pop into Ven and
regain Gre from Ser and Bul would do nicely.
Food for thought anyway.
Adam.........
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:21 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
> There has been talks about western triple to counter RAI. After I have
> listened to all the players I have the feeling that England is most likely
> moving to Stp _and_ taking London back. I don't know if Brent will get
> London back even without a fight. That is a possibility.
He may well get London back without a real fight. As Keith said,
France will probably disband F Lon to build in Mar. We can only
stop that with the support to Mar from Pie.
I'm not sure about StP. I think Brent may take Swe with Steve's
help but I think that StP is safe - my move to Nwy will stop
him taking StP I think.
> I think I am not winning much by attacking Austria.
All you gain is the advantage of position and surprise.
There's no way that Keith will be the open again, he's
made a mistake and it's probably in our best interests
to take advantage. That's what I think. You say you
don't want to attack France - fair enough, but there's
hardly any meat left on Turkey as it is and we've
got Keith's prime breast meat lying right under our
noses.
If I slipped into Ser or Bud we'd have one unit
behind Keith's lines, Gal and War and Sev and Rum
right on his borders, You'd have almost all of the
Balkans as easy gains over the next few years and
France and Germany and England would get off our
backs.
THAT is why I still think it's a good idea but,
like I said, I need you on board so my provisional
orders are as I said they would be in my press to AI
> So I would like to reduce Eric's power before
> stabbing Keith.
Well, okay, but next year Eric will only have two
centers and Keith will be ready and on guard and
have six or seven. Austria's real hard to crack
once he's above six.
Adam..........
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:23 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> In that letter, you did mention Bud and Ser, but I forgot to mention it in
> my letters to you. I would definitely welcome an attack on either one. Of
> the two, Rum - Ser is more likely, don't you think? I agree with you that
> Keith is liable to cover Bud just because he can, whether or not he attacks
> Munich.
There's little point in him not doing so basically.
> If he is to guarantee himself London (which he says he really wants), he
> only has one unit to work with in the north. As I write to you, I have
> received no sort of confirmation from him what he will do. I imagine that
> you might even keep both Sweden and St Pete. I believe you and Brent have
> been talking a fair bit, so this might be old news.
Well, I think that if I order Swe - Nwy then, given that F Nth will
have to concentrate on Lon, I can probably stop him going for StP,
it's just a question of whether you'd support him to Swe - as you
pointed out that would leave you surrounded so I guess there's
some hope I might not loose a center there.
> Regarding Raine, he seems to commit in his press right at the last minute.
> I imagine since you are both in Europe, you have a little more time to work
> out these things than if you had to coordinate with someone in the States.
Yeah, he's very stuck in his ways though, not a lot of room
for compromise from him. The last press I got from him was
saying that he didn't want to stab Austria, he didn't want
to move West for Gre, he just wanted to concentrate on Turkey.
Weird, Turkey is already as good as dead if AIR continued
anyway.
I think I'll go after Austria anyway. I'm sure Raine will
chance his mind when he sees what a good position it puts
us in and it could confuse Keith a little too. A last
minute press to Italy telling him that Austria is being
bad and he'll have to support himself into Gre rather
than rely on Kieth moving out should work wonders.
> That leaves us. I will definitely not support Norway into Sweden not only
> because I want to keep Berlin, but also because I truly do like a balance of
> power in Scandanavia. I figure that if you do take Berlin I pretty much
> will have no choice but to work with Brent later. But, I'd prefer to hold
> off that sort of commitment as long as possible. And, if you do get a build
> this year, you still have the option of building in St Pete.
I can pretty much force Raine into the Austrian stab
thinking about it. He's desperate for a build (Italy's
fifth is always hard) and he won't get one under the
plans we seem to be making if I stab Austria. Careful
timing is going to be the key I think. I'll write
as much to convince him as I can this afternoon and
then last thing this evening send an ultimatum if
it hasn't worked.
Adam.........
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:24 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> The Army behind the lines also gives you the
> option to work with me, if Raine's demands become
> unreasonable. ;^}
Strangely, given Raine's recent unwavering uncompromising
stance, a relevent point indeed.
> Just make sure you get a clear-cut commitment to
> an order attacking Greece. Raine has a habit of
> discussing hypothetical orders, but never actually
> committing to a given course, and then saying, "Well,
> I never promised that I'd move that way..."
He definately wants to get a build, if my support from
Bla goes he can't have Gre or Con so he'll have no
choice. I'm still trying to persuade him but I'll
give up on that this evening and offer an untimatum
if I have to. :)
Adam.........
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:26 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> Seriously though, I still might. Assuming my press to AR has been
> effective, this could be my best chance to get something done.
What are your arrangements with them? If they stick together, eviscerating you
is easy. Russia gets Ber for free, and Austria forces Mun (with Russian help)
in the Spring. Have you given them a good reason to do something different?
Rod
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:27 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria and Russia in
'gutsy':
Hi,
About western triple
--------------------
I don't believe Rod will continue in it after Steve has left Burgundy.
Think about it. There is no reason to turn his back to growing England.
> There's more than just a rumour, trust me. France is actively
> campaigning for it and Steve in Germany is pretty much convinced
> it's needed. Believe it or not, the weakest link in that FEG
> triple is Brent. He wants to be our spy instead.
Brent is willing to do anything to survive...
> > I believe Turkey will order like you say. The other alternative is to play
> > it safe and move Arm-Smy, Ank S Con and Con tries to get one of us on
> > Eric's side.
>
> This is what Eric /says/ he'll order anyway. He's probably just
> trying to scare me I guess. Leaving Smy open and Con unsupported
> would surely show where he wants his centers to go: Not me.
To me he insists that all his centers fall to Austria and Russia :-)
> In the long term it wouldn't be needed, sure, but while Turkey still
> has two fleets I kinda want two fleets to fight him. I expect
> him to be down to one fleet after the builds though.
Yes, I meant in the long term.
> I'll lose the fleet most likely, but a condition
> has to be that no fleets, Russian Italian or Austrian, sail
> through Con at all. Smy can be taken next year and I'll
> claim Ank as well - there should be no need for fleets
> to go to Con at all since Italy doesn't want to take it
> at this time.
I agree. No fleets through Con. One might go to Con but not through. But
what is this 'Italy doesn't want to take it at this time'? It is one
option that I take it this time. That is what I have been telling to you.
> This is what's weird, Turkey will be dead, kaput, done and gone
> at the end of next year. It takes Italy a while to turn around
> to the west and the sooner he starts the better. You've said
> yourself that EFG are comming after us. Strikes me that the
> sooner Italy can ensure our control of the Western Med
> the better.
Would you like to make a bet Adam? I don't believe Eric is history for
sure. I hope he is. There is still a chance that he manipulates EFR triple
and survives or he can manipulate one of ARI to his side. Still, I hope
you are right.
> > You got it right. Just remember that I am not willing to west before
> > Turkey is killed.
>
> I still maintain that Turkey IS already killed. This fall he looses
> Bul and Con, so he's down to two units. Maybe he'll keep both
> fleets, but that would leave Smy completely open in the spring
> and in the fall we can support into Ank. The attack on Turkey
> is over and it needs no more units.
Ok, let's think about this: 1 Italian fleet, 1 Russian fleet and what
else? What are we going to put against Turkey if I go west? What are the
Austrian units in Gre and Bul doing, having a vacation?
> I'm not about to grow at all most likely. It's possible but
> it depends on how Brent takes my constant press to him.
> Obviously I can't reach Italy even if it was tempting!
Sorry, I was talking to Keith here. I hope I don't look tempting to Russia
:-)
> > Plan A:
> > -------
> > Austria gets Mun and Con
> > Russia gets Bul (not Berlin)
> > Italy gets Gre
> > it is one build each. I know this is a bit complicated but Turkey would
> > fall down one.
>
> Not exactly one build each of course since I loose StP or Swe
> with all likelyhood. Also, if I'm taking Bul, I'm doing it
> with the F bla, yeah? I thought you wanted that to be disbanded.
Disbanded in the long run, yes.
> I don't mind seeing an Italian fleet in Con this fall, but
> it has to sail to Smy next year and never return.
That is no problem.
> We're rapidly running out of time too, 21 hours to the
> deadline now. My provisional orders are:
>
> A Sil - Ber
> A War - Sil
> F Sev S F Bla
> F Bla S A Bul - Con
> A Rum S F Gre - Bul(sc)
> F Swe - Nwy
Yes, we need to make agreements now and modify them if needed.
my moves would be
F Aeg s Bul-Con
F Ion-Gre
A Tun Hold/Naf/stupid support :-)
Do you mind if I keep it a secred how I will try to make sure France is
not able to build to Mar?
My options are:
A Pie S Spa-Mar
-Mar/Tus/Ven
Raine
PS. Have you talked about the possibility to take Munich 1st? No need to
tell me what you do I just would like you to talk about it.
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:30 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> He may well get London back without a real fight. As Keith said,
> France will probably disband F Lon to build in Mar. We can only
> stop that with the support to Mar from Pie.
In case of self-bounce yes. There is always a possibility that Rod will
try to outguess me and is not moving to Mar at all. In that case I should
move to Mar. 3rd option is that Rod moves to Mar to bounce me out. In that
case it would be good for me to not move there. So I try to outguess him.
Like I said earlier I am going to tell Rod that 'please go ahead make a
self-bounce' that should make him think about what to do. What would you
do if you were Rod and Italy is telling to make a self-bounce?
> I'm not sure about StP. I think Brent may take Swe with Steve's
> help but I think that StP is safe - my move to Nwy will stop
> him taking StP I think.
In EFG they could move Nwy-Stp, Den-Swe if they know for sure that you'll
move Swe-Nwy. That would be bad. Please do not tell me what you are going
to do 'cause if something goes wrong I want to be out of accusations :-)
Ofcourse I want you to do well in north.
> > I think I am not winning much by attacking Austria.
>
> All you gain is the advantage of position and surprise.
> There's no way that Keith will be the open again, he's
> made a mistake and it's probably in our best interests
> to take advantage. That's what I think. You say you
> don't want to attack France - fair enough, but there's
> hardly any meat left on Turkey as it is and we've
> got Keith's prime breast meat lying right under our
> noses.
I believe it is too early. If we move like in previous press suggested I
would have a fleet in Aeg and Gre. Close to Keith. Then Eric is reduced to
2 and it is more safe to attack Keith. I could even consider Pie-Ven to be
more in position to attack Keith. Eric is waiting for stab against A by
IR. I might be wrong now when I say it is too early but that is how I
feel. I am still open to your suggestions. By default I move like I told
in previous letter.
> If I slipped into Ser or Bud we'd have one unit
> behind Keith's lines, Gal and War and Sev and Rum
> right on his borders, You'd have almost all of the
> Balkans as easy gains over the next few years and
> France and Germany and England would get off our
> backs.
If you'd move Rum-Bud/Ser you'd have to move Bla-Bul to make sure I get
the build. I am not sure if Keith will move like we suggest. In fact there
is also a possiblity that Eric is gambling and moving Con-Aeg. Highly
speculative but possible in AT. I am unsure of Keith's forthcoming moves.
> THAT is why I still think it's a good idea but,
> like I said, I need you on board so my provisional
> orders are as I said they would be in my press to AI
I understand your point Adam. If everything should go like you said that
would be fine. One thing that slows me down is, I don't want to be too
aggressive in early days. I mean, alliances come and go. If we just could
be sure that Keith is left alone then we should attack
immediately. Important point to reckocnize is that if I am wrong in
delaying the attack against Keith, I will be the one who suffers. In worst
case Keith is not with us in next season and it means no builds to Italy
:-(
> > So I would like to reduce Eric's power before
> > stabbing Keith.
>
> Well, okay, but next year Eric will only have two
> centers and Keith will be ready and on guard and
> have six or seven. Austria's real hard to crack
> once he's above six.
I know Austrias power. I soloed once as Austria. As long as Austria don't
get Rumania too he is still too weak to attack both of us if we are
prepared.
There are also other possibilities:
-I stab Keith alone.
-You stab Keith alone.
I think these are not good options. At least if done without warning
me/you in advance. I would not like to see you stabbing Keith while I am
moving to Gre without support.
Raine
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:35 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> What would you
> do if you were Rod and Italy is telling to make a self-bounce?
Probably what I always do in a guessing game situation
like that one: Toss a coin or roll a die. The idea that
you can outguess someone who could be bluffing or
tripple bluffing or just telling the truth is beyond
me. I toss a coin so that at least I know I won't
have given my own move away accidentally.
> In EFG they could move Nwy-Stp, Den-Swe if they know for sure that you'll
> move Swe-Nwy. That would be bad. Please do not tell me what you are going
> to do 'cause if something goes wrong I want to be out of accusations :-)
> Ofcourse I want you to do well in north.
Okay, here's the stuff I was hoping I wouldn't have to tell
you. Steve wants me to stab Austria and if I do that, now,
he'll continue his plan to take France out with English
help. They'll leave StP and Swe for me and he won't have
to worry about Berlin. If we try to stab Austria later
we'll be tangled up in a war with Germany, and possibly
France, and things will be very messy indeed. If we
go after Keith NOW, Germany and France will get back
to their own business and we can concentrate on ours.
You said that a four center Italy isn't stronger than
a three center Turkey. Of course you'd have five centers,
not four. Vie, Rom, Nap, Tun and Gre. Eric will be
stuck at three. I'll be on six or so. Assuming Germany
and France stay out of the way - and I think they will,
but only if we move right away, we'll win that battle
between us easily. probably in plenty of time to get
involved in the West again once it shakes itself out.
> I believe it is too early. If we move like in previous press suggested I
> would have a fleet in Aeg and Gre. Close to Keith. Then Eric is reduced to
> 2 and it is more safe to attack Keith. I could even consider Pie-Ven to be
> more in position to attack Keith. Eric is waiting for stab against A by
> IR. I might be wrong now when I say it is too early but that is how I
> feel. I am still open to your suggestions. By default I move like I told
> in previous letter.
As I said, the main problem with stabbing later is that
we'll, or I at least, will be heavily involved in a
war against Germany and it's akward to break of a
thing like that once it's started. Stabbing later
means convincing Germany to help do it while I'm
sitting in Berlin! Not an easy task, stabbing now
just means an apology to Steve and on with the show.
No real harm done.
> If you'd move Rum-Bud/Ser you'd have to move Bla-Bul to make sure I get
> the build.
Yes I would have to, and I'd do it.
> I am not sure if Keith will move like we suggest. In fact there
> is also a possiblity that Eric is gambling and moving Con-Aeg. Highly
> speculative but possible in AT. I am unsure of Keith's forthcoming moves.
There's a reasonable chance that Keith will cover Bud - I would
if I were him, it doesn't hurt any. Covering Ser means
abandoning Con so there is something to loose there and
I think Keith will leave it open.
I could just take Bul with Rum S Bla - Bul, and if my
doing that instead would bring you on side then I'd
do that. It would mean the fleet gets to live too,
which could be helpful since it would take longer
to finish Eric if we do this.
> I don't want to be too
> aggressive in early days.
We're past the point of sitting on fences now, surely?
All the neutrals are gone, or nearly so anyway.
> I mean, alliances come and go. If we just could
> be sure that Keith is left alone then we should attack
> immediately.
I'm not sure I understand this. Keith isn't being helped
by anyone, I'm pretty sure of that. Well, nobody except
us. If we turn on him he'll immediately start offering
things to Eric, and back off from Germany, but we still
outnumber Eric and Keith put together, and we'd have
surprise AND position on them.
> Important point to reckocnize is that if I am wrong in
> delaying the attack against Keith, I will be the one who suffers. In worst
> case Keith is not with us in next season and it means no builds to Italy
I have very little doubt that Keith will move with the
tripple. The harm we get from delay is that we lose
the chance. I'd be busy in Germany, and relying on
Keith's help to do so, for a few years. Turkey would
be finished off in one year leaving you with a
choice of attacking Keith and therefore stabbing
me too since I need Keith's help in Germany or
turning on a France that'll be halfway into the
Med by then.
> I know Austrias power. I soloed once as Austria. As long as Austria don't
> get Rumania too he is still too weak to attack both of us if we are
> prepared.
My worry is that we'll be too busy elsewhere to do anything
about it when he makes his move if we don't get in first.
> -I stab Keith alone.
Might work, in a year or two. I think that France will
probably be a problem to you by then and you'll have
enough trouble defending yourself.
> -You stab Keith alone.
I'm thinking about it.
> I would not like to see you stabbing Keith while I am
> moving to Gre without support.
This is why it'd be best if I managed to talk you around :)
Can you let me know if you'll be able to check you email
tommorow morning just before the deadline? I promise that
if I decide to go ahead and stab Austria then I'll send
press at least a few hours before the deadline to let you
know so you can change your orders to support yourself
into Gre. If I do it I'll definately cut any Bul support,
whether I take Bul or Ser.
Adam........
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:37 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
> Plan B:
> -------
> Austria gets Bul
> Russia gets Ber (or Mun you can decide it behind my back)
> Italy gets Con and would concentrate to east.
>
> I think B is the easiest to arrange. In future I'd like to see only one
> southern Russian fleet. No Ausrtian fleets. I would concentrate in
> building fleets. How does it sound?
This plan sounds the best to me. I feel like Russia does. Turkey is
already dead, just with the units we have in place. He will be down to
two units after this year, and then he will be dead after next year.
This is why I am looking at the future. Italy does not need to invest
any more units to the East just to be sure that Turkey is dead.
I am counting on F being concerned about Italy. I don't know what
arrangement Italy thinks he has with F, but France must be trying to
prevent Italy from moving Ion-Tys this turn. France is apparently
playing the line that he is not so concerned about Italy, but I am sure
he must be. If he moves to Mid this turn, he will have Wes with
certainty in the Spring unless Italy moves Ion-Tys now. I would be
concerned about this if I were Italy, so I am somewhat confused why Italy
is not concerned about this now.
>From my perspective, Turkey is dead now, and if Italy is going to expand
more, he is going to have to attack either France or Austria. I want to
ensure that Italy attacks France and not me. If Italy does not move
Ion-Tys now, I think he is likely to attack me. I hope you can
understand why I am campaigning for Italy to move west now. Otherwise
this triple alliance we have formed is going to fall apart next year.
In order to take Con, which we must, we need involvement from Italy's
fleet in Aeg.
I would like to see Italy move Aeg-Con with support from Bul. I am less
willing to move Bul-Con and Gre-Bul. Last turn I pleaded with Italy to
move Ion-Eas and more importantly Tun-Naf. I am most concerned about
Italy's convoying to Gre or Alb from Tunis, and I wanted to avoid that.
If I wanted to attack Italy, I would have moved Bud-Tri, and I would have
taken Venice with nothing that Italy could do about it. But I don't want
to attack Italy. I want Italy to move west, and I want to attack Germany
with Russia. I think Italy will not have to face France alone. I think
we will have an ally in England. England may try to get a center from
Russia this turn. But after this, I think he will try to take advantage
of France and Germany, and this will work directly to the benefit of
Russia and Italy. England surely sees the benefit in this, and I hope
that you two have been trying to work with England, and I have been
trying to convince him to work with you. Hopefully Russia is telling him
that you understand he wants a center and that you can forgive the loss
of Sweden as long as he then works with us against Germany and France.
If Italy is worried that I will attack him, then perhaps we should think
of an alternative plan against Turkey. Italy can move to Smy, and I can
support myself in Greece or move to Con. If Italy is not going to move
West, then I want to prepare a set of moves that does not permit treachery.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:39 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria and Italy in 'gutsy':
> If Italy is worried that I will attack him, then perhaps we should think
> of an alternative plan against Turkey. Italy can move to Smy, and I can
> support myself in Greece or move to Con. If Italy is not going to move
> West, then I want to prepare a set of moves that does not permit treachery.
Wow, it's very late in the day to try and think of and
organise anything completely new. You two will have to
do it more or less alone in fact, I'm off to a gig in
five minutes and, although I'll check in when I get
back, I expect to be pretty wasted and not in a
good frame of mind for dip.
I'll have an hour or two tommorow morning if I get
up early I think, be sure you let me know clearly
which support you want F Bla to make.
Sorry I can't say more, I'm in a rush as it is.
Adam..........
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:41 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
I also want to say that I see Italy's concerns about being spread out.
Italy, is there any movements that I can make that would ease these
concerns? Would you like to have a more solid footing in Turkey, perhaps
convoying your army there?
Again, my main concern is getting you moving west. I see that your main
concern is that you are vulnerable to attack.
You propose not moving west this turn. Is there any alternative you
would consider that would include your moving west? I am only concerned
about you if you do not move west. If you do move west, I would not be
so concerned about arrangements of your forces that would appear to be
more dangerous to me.
If you do not move west now, then we should make some moves that would
make France think that you will not be moving west later so that you can
sneak up on him. I just don't know what these moves would be.
I still think we need to clarify some fundamental issues. Italy, I
understand that you do not want to move west now. But, do you see that
Turkey will not survive another year simply facing the units that we
already have in place? You mentioned that you wanted to concentrate on
the East. But this is not necessary. I expect that you will want to
have two of the Turkish centers (or one of the Turkish centers and
Greece). I think that you should get this so that you can build up the
forces necessary to attack France.
If you move Ion-Tys now, you can hold off France (assuming that your
efforts to prevent his building in Mar are successful) only using your F
Tys and A Pie. Your other units can be used to take and hold Turkish
centers. It is fine with me if you have some armies there. We can
arrange our units such that it would be difficult for any of us to stab
each other.
We have a lot to discuss, and it is important to get this right so we
reach a compromise that we are all satisfied with. Otherwise, there are
going to be problems in the near future.
Austria
p.s. For what it's worth, I have not heard anything from France, nor
from Germany in quite some time.
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:42 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
Until we decide otherwise, I think Rum-Bla-Ank or Bla-Ank to cut support
would be the best moves for Russia to make. I am assuming that Italy and
I will decide either to move Bul-Con with Aeg support or Aeg-Con with Bul
support.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:44 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
> Would you like to make a bet Adam? I don't believe Eric is history for
> sure. I hope he is. There is still a chance that he manipulates EFR triple
> and survives or he can manipulate one of ARI to his side. Still, I hope
> you are right.
Turkey is dead unless he convinces one of us to stop attacking him. He
has stopped communicating with me altogether, so he must be working on
you two.
> Ok, let's think about this: 1 Italian fleet, 1 Russian fleet and what
> else? What are we going to put against Turkey if I go west? What are the
> Austrian units in Gre and Bul doing, having a vacation?
He will have only two units left. I can put my fleet in Aeg and support
you to Smy, for instance. If he only has two units, we only need three
to defeat him.
> Yes, we need to make agreements now and modify them if needed.
> my moves would be
> F Aeg s Bul-Con
> F Ion-Gre
> A Tun Hold/Naf/stupid support :-)
What are you hearing from France that makes you so confident that he is
not going to come after you? What are you telling him? This set of
moves is the one we should make if you are not concerned about France.
But if you are not concerned about France, I want to know exactly why.
> Do you mind if I keep it a secred how I will try to make sure France is
> not able to build to Mar?
You should do what you need to. I am guessing that you will move
Pie-Ven. That's what I would do if I were not going after France.
> PS. Have you talked about the possibility to take Munich 1st? No need to
> tell me what you do I just would like you to talk about it.
My plan was to support myself to Munich (which will bounce) while Russia
moves to Ber. Then Russia could support me to Munich in the Spring. If
Russia is in Munich, then it makes it more difficult for me to get a
German supply center any time soon, though I suppose he could move Mun-Ber
in the Spring. If there's some justification for taking Munich first, I
am willing to go along with it.
Austria
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:50 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> There's little point in him not doing so basically.
I agree. As I look at it, the most important aspect in your negotiations
with him is Warsaw's move. What have you told him?
> Well, I think that if I order Swe - Nwy then, given that F Nth will
> have to concentrate on Lon, I can probably stop him going for StP,
> it's just a question of whether you'd support him to Swe - as you
> pointed out that would leave you surrounded so I guess there's
> some hope I might not loose a center there.
Swe - Nwy is an excellent move provided Brent and Rod haven't arranged for
Rod to leave London. If I were Rod, there's no way I would do so, but Brent
seems to think it's a definite possibility.
> Yeah, he's very stuck in his ways though, not a lot of room
> for compromise from him. The last press I got from him was
> saying that he didn't want to stab Austria, he didn't want
> to move West for Gre, he just wanted to concentrate on Turkey.
> Weird, Turkey is already as good as dead if AIR continued
> anyway.
Thanks for the information. I suspect Raine doesn't want to give anything
away too soon. If I were him, I'd have to be pretty confident to attack
Smyrna. Yes, Italy's fifth is hard to get, but he has to know that AIR will
not get him very much. Once Keith gets another build, Raine is out of luck;
Smyrna maybe, but nothing more. Greece is definitely his best bet.
> I think I'll go after Austria anyway. I'm sure Raine will
> chance his mind when he sees what a good position it puts
> us in and it could confuse Keith a little too. A last
> minute press to Italy telling him that Austria is being
> bad and he'll have to support himself into Gre rather
> than rely on Kieth moving out should work wonders.
That's very good to hear. I will probably bounce Keith in Munich and take
my chances with Berlin.
I also want to let you know that I understand how hard it is too hold back
from Berlin. If you do decide to take it, I think we can still work
together, but it will be much harder after that.
Thanks for your letter and if you have time before the moves, please writen.
Despite you moves last spring, I still like exchanging letters and I still
believe a GR or GIR could pay off.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:51 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
>Message from Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> > The Army behind the lines also gives you the
> > option to work with me, if Raine's demands become
> > unreasonable. ;^}
>
>Strangely, given Raine's recent unwavering uncompromising
>stance, a relevant point indeed.
Not strange to me at all, I've been trying to get him
to head west since the beginning. He seems to define
negotiation as "repeating your demands, until the other
guy gives in."
>He definitely wants to get a build, if my support from
>Bla goes he can't have Gre or Con so he'll have no
>choice. I'm still trying to persuade him but I'll
>give up on that this evening and offer an ultimatum
>if I have to. :)
Consider what would happen if you agreed to order
Bla-Bul, so that he could take Gre, and then ordered
Rum-Ser, Bla-Rum, instead. Raine wouldn't get a build,
you'd be able to support me into Bul/SC next Spring,
and we could bring back the Juggernaut as AI fight,
and France heads into the Med to force Raine into a
two-front war...
Eric the Persistent.
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:54 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
If you have the chance, I'd like to talk. My primary question is: What are
you're plans in the east? Greece or Turkey?
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:55 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Wow, you wrote one paragraph and I have three responses. :)
> What are your arrangements with them?
No arrangements at all. Keith is a very hard man to negotiate with. He
says "I agree" when talking theoretically, but never when it comes to a
concrete proposal. You really have to read between the lines with that man.
Adam, on the other hand, is easy to make agreements with...problem is, he
tends to break them. Nothing new in the world of dip there, but you are
always a little more cautious when somebody does something you thought was
off the table. I'm sure you understand. BTW, I really *was* trying to
protect my interests in Belgium last year. :)
> If they stick together, eviscerating you is easy. Russia gets Ber for
free, and Austria forces Mun (with Russian help) in the Spring.
Yep, this is my biggest headache and I believe you, Brent, and Eric share my
concern. That would give both A and R units across the stalemate line *way*
too early in the game for anyone's comfort. If AR doesn't break this turn,
Raine will probably fall in line and Turkey will be toast.
But, if they do turn away, it's back to business as usual. My fleets will
be at most one season away from an attack on the North Sea. And, I'm sure
by then you'll have the vineyards in Burgundy well gated. :)
> Have you given them a good reason to do something different?
I have made some pretty convincing arguments to both of them why they should
stab the other. At least I think so. And, I've had some encouraging
follow-up press, but I'm no where near knowing what they will do. If there
is something specific about my negotiations you need to know, drop me a
note.
Write if you'd like; I'll be here.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 02 19:03:56 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
> Well, no not entirely. I am capable of writing to someone first in a
> turn, I just haven't been doing much of that lately. 8-)
Yea, if we both go down, I blame you. :) (That's a funny, BTW)
>> I understand your comment in one of the EFG+T letters where you said
>> that Adam can afford to ignore a fleet in St Pete. I've played Russia
>> before where I lost Sweden and St Pete to fleets, but because I was
>> making inroads into Austria, it didn't matter much. So...I undertand.
>
> Exactly.
Yes. This concept is more important than I think many folks realize.
Brent's approach, for instance, is:
1) Write lots of press.
2) Present detailed arguments.
3) Try to find an ally.
He doesn't seem interested in the long-term tactical implication of unit
placement. I still hope to work with him, mind you. :)
> I see England building two as a bigger threat to you than him
> taking Swe, but given his poor relationship with Rod, I don't see
> him stabbing you at all, let alone, anytime soon.
Yes, I agree. Maybe the three of us should talk outside the EFG+T forum.
There's no way I want to see a five center England; four maybe, but five is
right out.
> Pretty much. Given AIR cooperation, I'll lose Con, but hopefully both
> Adam and Raine see the stab potential, and they'll take Gre and Ser/Bud,
> instead. If they do continue to cooperate, however, and Brent take Lon,
> and doesn't Convoy to Nwy, I'm toast. There will be no threat to Russia,
> and no threat to Italy, and they'll have no reason to not eliminate me,
and
> then stab Keith. For my sake, I urge you to reconsider.
A couple of things:
1) I don't think you'll lose Con especially if you resort to your safety.
I know playing it safe really stinks, but that's often the way Turkey wins.
If I were you, I'd forget about making an ally right now, I'd just try to
reduce your number of enemies. Tell everyone you'll "turtle"; broadcast
your orders if need be.
2) I, too, want to see Rod keep London. I also want to see Brent in St
Pete. That's a tight rope to walk, but it's probably the best we can both
hope for.
Write if you can.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 02 20:54:40 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi,
It's been a little bit since we last talked; I hope everything is going
well.
I'm not really writing to chat, though a response would be welcome. I'm
just writing to let you know I've decide to support myself into Burgundy. I
had considered a handful of other options (some of which might have made
their way back to you), but I think it best for me right now to cover my own
butt first before trying anything sneaky.
I still hope you consider moving away from Munich either into Raine or Adam,
but I would undertand it if you didn't. In any case, good luck with
whatever you try. Let's talk more after the moves are in.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Tue Oct 02 22:02:42 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Nothing special, but I'll be on-line for a little bit. Is there anything
you want to chat about?
- Steve (twiddling my fingers, looking for someone to talk to)
From - Tue Oct 02 22:02:43 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
Nothing special, but I'll be on-line for a little bit. Is there anything
you want to chat about?
Just to get things started, I understand Raine has told Adam he will convoy.
I really don't know squat for sure, but I'd like to talk just the same. :)
- Steve (twiddling my fingers, looking for someone to talk to)
From - Tue Oct 02 22:02:44 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hey, Steve,
> Nothing special, but I'll be on-line for a little bit. Is there anything
> you want to chat about?
Umm, Nwy-Swe, Yor-Nwy? (I sometimes wonder why I can't convince
others that what I see as the obvious best move is obviously the best move.
8-)
> Just to get things started, I understand Raine has told Adam he will
convoy.
Oh? To where? ;^} I've pointed out the "obvious" advantages of stabbing
Austria to both of them, and they've been polite, but I'll still be
surprised if I
don't lose Con.
> - Steve (twiddling my fingers, looking for someone to talk to)
Talk to Brent, convince him to order Nwy-Swe, Yor-Nwy, talk to Rod,
convince him to order Lon HOLD. 8-) Tell me how I can hold Con against
Bul S Tun-Con, Bla S Tun-Con, Tun-Ion-Aeg-Con. :-(
Eric the Under-defended.
From - Wed Oct 03 06:13:27 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
I don't think there's a whole lot for us to discuss until the moves
happen. I am a bit concerned by the tone of your last message to me. You
sounded seriously concerned about an alliance against you and this triple
wasn't all its cut up to be. Have I done something to create that concern?
Or has someone else? It just seemed like a real about face from your
previous tone. Anything YOU want to talk about? =)
Brent
From - Wed Oct 03 06:13:30 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Umm, Nwy-Swe, Yor-Nwy? (I sometimes wonder why I can't convince
> others that what I see as the obvious best move is obviously the best
> move.
Yea, that is definitely Brent's best move as long as he and Rod have worked
things out. I've written him saying that I would be willing to do that, but
no bite, not even a nibble. That makes me think there's no deal in place
for Rod to leave London. I could be wrong; won't be the first time.
> Oh? To where? ;^} I've pointed out the "obvious" advantages of stabbing
> Austria to both of them, and they've been polite, but I'll still be
> surprised if I don't lose Con.
I really hope you don't lose Con. If anything, the convoy would be to
Smyrna. That's according to Adam.
But I'm very pleased you're encouraging an IR stab of A. Let's hope that
pans out.
- Steve
From - Wed Oct 03 06:13:32 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Good to find someone else online.
> Have I done something to create that concern?
No, not at all. It's just that I have a hard time imagining Rod leaving
London all on his own. It's not something I would consider accepting based
on one small group broadcast. I know he said he would, but why? What does
he have to gain by doing so?
> I am a bit concerned by the tone of your last message to me. You
> sounded seriously concerned about an alliance against you and this triple
> wasn't all its cut up to be.
> It just seemed like a real about face from your previous tone.
Which message? Maybe you are referring to this passage from my last letter.
>>As for me, I'm stuck with the unenviable position of trying to out-think
and
>>out-press all four of my neighbors. I know you just went through a
similar
>>thing with London, but it is a bit tricky nonetheless. No matter what we
>>each do this turn, though, I want you to know that I am still quite
willing
>>to work together in the future. We have opportunities for cooperation in
>>both the north and west.
I hope I didn't make the wrong impression here. I'm simply thinking that
each one of us in EFG have to consider our lives outside of the triple. I
could easily imagine a situation in which EF move against G; no paranoia,
just the lay of the land. I wanted to talk that possibility through and
assure you upfront that I am not one to harbor bad feelings.
Thanks.
- Steve (still twiddling) :)
From - Wed Oct 03 06:13:36 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Master in 'gutsy':
===***===***===***===
Gutsy - EOY 1902
My primary goal for 1902 was to encourage GIR while hoping that T made it
through in one piece. Tactically, I wanted to take Belgium and not lose
Munich (or Denmark for that matter) while also keeping E and F at each
other's throat.
In the spring, I ordered a supported attack on Burgundy while hoping to
shift Hol and Kiel down the coast. Den - Nth was thrown in because it
protected the interests of both Brent and I.
In the east, I hoped Eric kept Bulgaria since that would delay an attack
from Russia. I also hope that Raine is good to his word and moves to the
Piedmont while also deploying at least one fleet against France. I figured
that a Lepanto-like move would fail, but I wasn't at all sure that Raine
would recognize the "fool's gold".
===***===***===**===
Ooops. Let's see...is there any other way I can say that. Hmmm.
OOOOOOPPPPSS. or maybe Oops!!!!!! or even oOoOoOoPpSs. (that last one
sucked, by the way). :)
I write this part of the EoY mid-fall. I've had enough time to press all
players several times and have received limited, but acceptable support. I
have three basic options in front of me:
Option 1)
bur - mun
ruh s bur - mun
hol - kie
den h
bel h
Option 2)
ruh - kie
bur - ruh
bel h
hol s bel h
den - swe
Option 3)
bur - pic
ruh - kie
bel h
hol - nth
den s hol - nth
Hmmm...maybe one of my problems is that I fall back to tactical solutions.
Perhaps Brent had a point in his earlier press...(touches elbow to knee,
places forefinger tantalizingly on temple, rests chin on palm, and poses
artfully on rock). LOL Yea, like I'm funny. :)
Bottom line, I have to believe my press has been effective. Intentionally I
haven't written that much, but I figure my press should be targetted, not
broad based. I'll probably add to this by year's end.
===***===***===***===
Yes Regis, that's my final answer:
bur - mun
ruh s bur - mun
bel h
hol - nth
den - swe
I decided to hedge my bets. I'm not in a real good position so I'm hoping
that Brent is over-confident with Adam and under-confident with Rod.
Tricky, tricky, tricky.
If I get a build this year, I will be thrilled. If I stay even, it means an
unholy EF or a Russian army in Berlin. The Russian I can handle, not
easily, but I think that can be worked out. If I lose a center, next year
will be even more difficult. EF + R, not a good situation. Why me? LOL
That's it. Fingers crossed.
- Steve
From - Wed Oct 03 06:14:07 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
Its been disappointing not to hear more from you this turn. It seems like
our goals should be pretty much aligned, but as the turns go on you seem to
say less and less to me. Is it me, or just a real life intrusion? Its a
bit late for this turn, but then I guess we didn't have a whole lot of
direct coordination to do. Hopefully we can talk more soon though, if we
are going to be working together we need to establish how and when.
Brent
From - Wed Oct 03 06:14:09 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
[No, not at all. It's just that I have a hard time imagining Rod leaving
London all on his own. It's not something I would consider accepting based
on one small group broadcast. I know he said he would, but why? What does
he have to gain by doing so?]
Now you got me all paranoid. Oh well, nothing that can be done about it
at this point. The question is, how much does Rod want to get into a fight
with me, when its been made clear that given he choice you'd be on my side?
He knows I'm getting a build without London, and I've told him that build
will move against him if he doesn't vacate as promised. If he doesn't move
away he's in for a long drawn out battle, as England can sustain itself at 4
centers for quite some time. If he does, he's got a chance to win the race
to the Mediterannean and get me pushing off into the Northeast before he
tries to strike again. If I were him, I think I'd try it. But thats one of
my weaknesses, always reading my own motivations and goals into my
predictions of others.
[ I'm simply thinking that
each one of us in EFG have to consider our lives outside of the triple.]
Thats definitely true. But as I see it, you and I should retain the upper
hand. We've got strong communication, France is bound to be threatened by
Italy eventually, and I don't have anyone attacking me yet (though Russia
may be after this turn). I learned early on how far I could trust Rod, and
an alliance with him at this point would require him to make an awful lot of
concessions. Even as part of the triple, I only trust him for as long as
he's moving away from me.
Well, we will hopefully have plenty to discuss tomorrow morning. Who
knows, maybe it will be as exciting as the Spring, with a multitude of stabs
in the East!
Brent
From - Wed Oct 03 06:14:50 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
This is only for your eyes.
Thanks for your understanding. I also understand your position. I know
that we need to keep together and make a set of move that will make AI not
a threat to each other. I want us to be _the_ alliance in ARI. At the
moment I need you both so much that I would have been willing to go to Con
with fleet. BUT you gave me better idea. Tun-Con!
So, if I understood correct you are willing to see my army in Con, right?
That is fine with me. I am willing to move Tun-Ion-Aeg-Con. I _need_ your
reply to this mail. You need to tell me that you are there to give me
the support a Bul S Tun-Con. So please confirm.
About France:
-------------
I don't believe a word about EFG. That is nonsense. France is not coming
after me. I have tried to tell France that there ain't ARI triple
alliance. It is more like AR. I hope you don't mind :-) I don't know if
France believes me or not but that is the story. I have built the image to
France that I have no idea of the alliance structure.
If you are still there I'd like to talk more.
Raine
From - Wed Oct 03 06:14:51 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I hope the gig was good. Some band I could know?
It is early in the morning and I read your mail. Wow, I have been playing
gutsy with my eyes shut or something... You gave me a lot to think about.
I hope I'll got your reply before the deadline.
> Okay, here's the stuff I was hoping I wouldn't have to tell
> you. Steve wants me to stab Austria and if I do that, now,
> he'll continue his plan to take France out with English
> help. They'll leave StP and Swe for me and he won't have
> to worry about Berlin. If we try to stab Austria later
> we'll be tangled up in a war with Germany, and possibly
> France, and things will be very messy indeed. If we
> go after Keith NOW, Germany and France will get back
> to their own business and we can concentrate on ours.
This was new to me. This makes me think about the possibility that you
stab Keith now and I take Con now while I can get the help from both of
you. I think Keith is not helpful next year :-)
> As I said, the main problem with stabbing later is that
> we'll, or I at least, will be heavily involved in a
> war against Germany and it's akward to break of a
> thing like that once it's started. Stabbing later
> means convincing Germany to help do it while I'm
> sitting in Berlin! Not an easy task, stabbing now
> just means an apology to Steve and on with the show.
> No real harm done.
I believe you. You have given the perfect reasoning for your forthcoming
stab against Austria. So I suggest Rum-Ser AND Bla-Ank. I'll take Con.
I won't go west but stay close to Keith.
> > -You stab Keith alone.
>
> I'm thinking about it.
Please let me know about this! I would suggest
Bla-Ank (I need this to get Con, I am not sure yet which one Tun-Con or
Aeg-Con Keith is going to support)
Rum-Ser (the stab)
I will move either Tun-Con or Aeg-Con depending on my negotiations with
Keith. I think you would prefer Tun-Con, no fleet in Con and I would be
perfectly positioned to go against AT.
> This is why it'd be best if I managed to talk you around :)
:-) May it is a good compromise if you stab Keith now and I follow your
example after attacking Turkey.
> Can you let me know if you'll be able to check you email
> tommorow morning just before the deadline?
Sorry I couldn't sent a mail yesterday. I'll be online untill deadline. So
I am waiting eagerly for your reply
> I promise that
> if I decide to go ahead and stab Austria then I'll send
> press at least a few hours before the deadline to let you
> know so you can change your orders to support yourself
> into Gre. If I do it I'll definately cut any Bul support,
> whether I take Bul or Ser.
Plese do not support yourself to Bulgaria! I need your help to get Con.
Raine
From - Wed Oct 03 06:15:43 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
I am sorry for the lack of press. There is definitely nothing personal. I
have been busy in real life. I know we should talk more and I can feel it
that I am the poor soul who is not talking enough. From now on I try to
concentrate more on gutsy than on work :-)
Raine
From - Wed Oct 03 06:15:45 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria and Russia in
'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
Sorry Keith this comes twice to you (it is early in the morning :-).
I don't want to talk behind Adam's back.
Keith you wanted me to look like I am not a threat to France so that I
could surprise him later. You also wanted some set of moves that would
avoid treachery. Ok, I have a proposal:
Tun-Con (!)
Bul S Tun-Con
Bla-Ank or Bla S Tun-Con
There can be added:
Pie-Ven (this should give France the picture that I am not going
against him)
This is the set of moves that kills Turkey for sure. Eric has been silent
to me also. We exchanged a couple of short notes while we were both online
at the same time and he is waiting for me to stab Keith. I say, Let him
wait :-)
I need your reply desperately. I will be online untill deadline.
Your ally,
Raine
From - Wed Oct 03 06:15:52 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I would suggest
> Bla-Ank (I need this to get Con, I am not sure yet which one Tun-Con or
> Aeg-Con Keith is going to support)
> Rum-Ser (the stab)
And the support into Gal of course. This has now been ordered
so you'll need to support into Gal.
Sorry that this is brief, I'm going back to bed for a bit.
Fairly hungover. Ick.
Adam..........
From - Wed Oct 03 06:15:54 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
No problems! Managed to talk Raine around, I think
Keith even helped a little with his worry. Ordered
to Gal etc.
From - Wed Oct 03 06:15:57 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria and Italy in 'gutsy':
Okay then, I've ordered F Bla to cut the Ank support
as you suggested. I hope you two managed to sort
things out okay.
Adam.............
From - Wed Oct 03 06:15:58 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Okay then, I've ordered F Bla to cut the Ank support
> as you suggested. I hope you two managed to sort
> things out okay.
Not really, of course, F Bla is going to cut Bul instead.
Adam.......
From - Wed Oct 03 06:16:00 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> > I would suggest
> > Bla-Ank (I need this to get Con, I am not sure yet which one Tun-Con or
> > Aeg-Con Keith is going to support)
> > Rum-Ser (the stab)
>
> And the support into Gal of course. This has now been ordered
> so you'll need to support into Gal.
>
> Sorry that this is brief, I'm going back to bed for a bit.
> Fairly hungover. Ick.
Thanks for the reply. I need to support into Gal?!? I don't get
it. Please explain to stupid Finn :-)
I _really_ would like to see Bla-Ank. I want to get to Con and it is
impossible if you don't cut the support from Ank.
Raine
From - Wed Oct 03 06:16:01 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Just a reminder, I think the best move may be to
convoy your army to Gre - is this what you're
doing?
Adam........
From - Wed Oct 03 06:16:02 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Thanks for the reply. I need to support into Gal?!? I don't get
> it. Please explain to stupid Finn :-)
Um, Gre, i meant Gre.
> I _really_ would like to see Bla-Ank. I want to get to Con and it is
> impossible if you don't cut the support from Ank.
Oh, um. Okay then, I think, I wish I could think about
it properly rather than just ordering whatever you
tell me :(
F Bla - Ank ordered
Adam.........
From - Wed Oct 03 06:16:03 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Adam,
I am NOT going to stab Austria now. I am moving to Con.
I am going to make a holy alliance with Austria if you screw my move to
Con by not moving Bla-Ank.
Raine
From - Wed Oct 03 06:16:04 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
> > I _really_ would like to see Bla-Ank. I want to get to Con and it is
> > impossible if you don't cut the support from Ank.
>
> Oh, um. Okay then, I think, I wish I could think about
> it properly rather than just ordering whatever you
> tell me :(
>
> F Bla - Ank ordered
Thanks. I _really_ appreciate this. I hope you have read the mails I sent
to you this morning. It should be clear that I am on your side.
Raine
From - Wed Oct 03 06:16:05 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
An Intelligence Source has indicated:
> I understand Raine has told Adam he will convoy to Greece as Russia
> attacks Bulgaria.
Take it for what it's worth.
Eric.
From - Wed Oct 03 16:39:51 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria and Russia in
'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
I think I won't here from you anymore before deadline. Keith, I am
disappointed. I am not sure what you are going to do :-( From your talks
my best bet is Bul S Aeg-Con. I am not sure of it. I really don't like the
situation. I can see from the listing that everyone has orders in. I have
set wait.
I hate this situation...
I would like to get your support to Tun-Con. I cannot move like that if
your support is not there.
Adam, if you can reply before deadline I'd appreciate that. Maybe you have
some ideas what Keith is going to do.
Raine
From - Wed Oct 03 16:40:08 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1902M Wed Oct 03 2001 23:30:00 +1200
Movement results for Fall of 1902. (gutsy.005)
Austria: Army Bulgaria SUPPORT Italian Fleet Aegean Sea -> Constantinople.
Austria: Army Bohemia SUPPORT Army Tyrolia -> Munich.
Austria: Fleet Greece -> Aegean Sea. (*bounce*)
Austria: Army Tyrolia -> Munich. (*bounce*)
Austria: Army Vienna -> Budapest.
England: Army Yorkshire -> London.
England: Fleet Norway -> St Petersburg (north coast).
England: Fleet North Sea -> Norway. (*bounce*)
France: Army Spain HOLD.
France: Army Picardy -> Burgundy. (*bounce*)
France: Fleet London -> English Channel.
France: Army Gascony -> Marseilles.
France: Fleet Brest -> Mid-Atlantic Ocean.
Germany: Army Belgium HOLD.
Germany: Army Ruhr SUPPORT Army Burgundy -> Munich.
Germany: Fleet Denmark -> Sweden. (*bounce*)
Germany: Army Burgundy -> Munich. (*bounce*)
Germany: Fleet Holland -> North Sea. (*bounce*)
Italy: Army Tunis HOLD.
Italy: Army Piedmont -> Venice.
Italy: Fleet Aegean Sea -> Constantinople.
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea -> Aegean Sea. (*bounce*)
Russia: Army Rumania -> Serbia.
Russia: Army Silesia -> Galicia.
Russia: Fleet Black Sea -> Ankara. (*bounce*)
Russia: Fleet Sweden -> Norway. (*bounce*)
Russia: Fleet Sevastopol HOLD.
Russia: Army Warsaw SUPPORT Army Silesia -> Galicia.
Turkey: Army Armenia -> Smyrna.
Turkey: Fleet Constantinople CONVOY Russian Army Rumania -> Serbia. (*dislodged*)
Turkey: Fleet Ankara SUPPORT Fleet Constantinople. (*cut*)
The following units were dislodged:
The Turkish Fleet in Constantinople with no valid retreats was destroyed.
Ownership of supply centers:
Austria: Budapest, Bulgaria, Greece, Trieste, Vienna.
England: Edinburgh, Liverpool, London, Norway, St Petersburg.
France: Brest, Marseilles, Paris, Portugal, Spain.
Germany: Belgium, Berlin, Denmark, Holland, Kiel, Munich.
Italy: Constantinople, Naples, Rome, Tunis, Venice.
Russia: Moscow, Rumania, Serbia, Sevastopol, Sweden, Warsaw.
Turkey: Ankara, Smyrna.
Austria: 5 Supply centers, 5 Units: Builds 0 units.
England: 5 Supply centers, 3 Units: Builds 2 units.
France: 5 Supply centers, 5 Units: Builds 0 units.
Germany: 6 Supply centers, 5 Units: Builds 1 unit.
Italy: 5 Supply centers, 4 Units: Builds 1 unit.
Russia: 6 Supply centers, 6 Units: Builds 0 units.
Turkey: 2 Supply centers, 2 Units: Builds 0 units.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Adjustments for Winter of 1902.
The deadline for orders will be Thu Oct 04 2001 22:33:36 +1200.
From - Wed Oct 03 16:40:19 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
I just wanted to reassure you that hol - nth was nothing more than me
hedging my bets. I hope you understand.
Good job in St Pete and London; you and I both get to build. I'm off to
work now, but will write more later.
- Steve
From - Wed Oct 03 16:40:27 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
[I just wanted to reassure you that hol - nth was nothing more than me
hedging my bets. I hope you understand.]
I understand, which is why I'm disturbed by it. That fleet in Holland is
quickly becoming a very large thorn in my side. What if I hadn't gotten the
bounce in Norway? What if I had suddenly changed my mind based on your
commments about Rod and decided to use North to support Yor - Lon? It seems
that you found a move that could've ended up benefitting you, so you made
it, despite the possible consequences to me.
I know you've said that you play this game as 6 against 1 and all that,
but I hope I've made it clear to you that thats not the way I like to
operate. If I have to assume when we're working together that every turn
you're going to look for some way to take advantage of me, thats going to
put a real strain on our relationship. Anyways, it looks like we both
accomplished our goals for this turn, so I guess its time we start planning
for next year.
Brent
From - Wed Oct 03 16:40:29 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Well, at least you are no longer facing a triple alliance. The question
now is which side is Raine on, and which side are you going to try to join.
At this point, the most logical choice seems to be for you and Keith to team
up against Adam and Raine. Between the two of you, I'm sure you can
outmaneuver the two less experienced players, especially when they've both
got threats steaming in from the West. Its tough working from two centers,
but I have faith that you can do it! Let me know what you need from me.
Brent
From - Wed Oct 03 16:40:30 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hmm, looks like I picked a good time to attack Russia. He's trying to see
exactly how many fronts he can pile up at one time. I can keep the pressure
coming from the North, but you need a friend in the South too. Do you know
which side of this conflict Raine is on? If I had to guess, I would suspect
he's with Adam. But then again, if he was with Adam, and he expected you to
move Gre - AEG, why move ION - AEG instead of ION - Gre? Either he wasn't
expecting your move, or he wasn't ready to commit fully to the stab. Eric
I'm sure is desperate for a partner at this point, but its questionable
whether his two units will be enough to help you. One thing is for certain,
you and I will be working together more closely for a bit!
Brent
From - Wed Oct 03 16:40:32 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
I think I may have given you the wrong impression. Hol - Nth was a
completely *defensive* hedge. I think I even wrote you earlier saying I was
concerned about Belgium. This was my way of covering my butt. Nothing
more.
Thanks for being candid. And, yes we did accomplish our goals this year.
Hopefully, that will be the basis of future cooperation.
Regarding the fleet in Holland, I'm prepared to send it further down the
coast if you'd like. Let's talk some more after the builds are in.
Have a good day.
- Steve
From - Wed Oct 03 16:40:33 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Thank you for following through with Rum - Ser and leaving Berlin alone. I
think you are well positioned against Russia in the East and I see no reason
you can't keep Sweden for a long time still. Losing St Pete is a bit
dissapointing, but at least it's a fleet
Also, I want to apologize for Den - Swe. For me it was nothing more than a
defensive hedge bet in case you got into Norway and still took Berlin. I
figured if that had happened, I would be in deep trouble. I hope you
understand. Please let me know if that move offended you in any way.
Thanks again. I'll write when I have more time.
- Steve
From - Wed Oct 03 16:40:37 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
[Hol - Nth was a completely *defensive* hedge.]
The problem is that it wasn't. It affected (or could've affected)
more things than just your defensive position, as I tried to show with
my examples. Either you didn't take this into consideration at all, or
you did but decided that that was acceptable because either way it would
leave you in a better position. From what I've learned of you so far,
if you had gotten into North, you would've taken advantage of that
position to my detriment. My concern is that I have to worry about more
moves like this from you, ones that are "purely defensive" but if they
work suddenly turn into the beginnings of a nice stab. That doesn't
make me feel very confident about "us".
Brent
From - Wed Oct 03 16:40:41 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
I told you my moves would show my loyalty, though I guess
they weren't quite what you were expecting they surely
aren't anti-ER. Unlike this one:
> England: Fleet Norway -> St Petersburg (north coast).
And to think you took offense when I suggested protecting
StP might be worth while, even in the minor probably-wont-work
way I picked. Why do so many Englands seem to think taking
the oppertunistic StP(nc) with a fleet is such a good idea?
I've had it almost every time I play Russia and England
almost always appologises and moves right back out again.
Or at least moves out again a year or so later when I'm ready
to force the issue.
What do you want to do? I haven't had time to analyze
everything thouroughly but it looks to me like it'd
be akward for me to get an army up to StP by the
end of next year. A War could just about make it, but
I'll proabaly need it to stay roughly where it is
I'd think. Maybe I could use F Swe to retake it, if
I had your full co-operation (and Steves).
Actually, last time England took StP from me he got
four builds as a result and couldn't even use 'em all.
I'd taken it back by the time he could have built with
it. He was new to the game, he didn't know.
Builds builds builds, I'd really like to see F Liv.
Any chance of that?
Adam...........
From - Wed Oct 03 16:40:44 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Movement results for Fall of 1902. (gutsy.005)
>
>Italy: Army Tunis HOLD.
>Italy: Army Piedmont -> Venice.
>Italy: Fleet Aegean Sea -> Constantinople.
>Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea -> Aegean Sea. (*bounce*)
>
>Russia: Army Rumania -> Serbia.
>Russia: Army Silesia -> Galicia.
>Russia: Fleet Black Sea -> Ankara. (*bounce*)
>Russia: Fleet Sweden -> Norway. (*bounce*)
>Russia: Fleet Sevastopol HOLD.
>Russia: Army Warsaw SUPPORT Army Silesia -> Galicia.
>
>Austria: 5 Supply centers, 5 Units: Builds 0 units.
>Italy: 5 Supply centers, 4 Units: Builds 1 unit.
>Russia: 6 Supply centers, 6 Units: Builds 0 units.
>Turkey: 2 Supply centers, 2 Units: Builds 0 units.
"Can you say RI Alliance? I knew you could!"
(With thanks to Mr. Rogers.)
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:02 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
Steve,
> Thank you for following through with Rum - Ser and leaving Berlin alone.
That's okay. Couldn't get Raine to agree to take a second center
from Austria, which would have been SO my prefered option but
things could be worse. At least Eric left my fleet alive in
Bla. Though it might have been better if it was destroyed
and rebuilt as an army now that I look closely.
In case you ever need to know, I don't think Raine will
ever let up on a fight against someone, even if it's obviosly
already won, until they're dead. That's pretty inflexible
if you ask me, but we'll see.
> I think you are well positioned against Russia in the East
Oh dear, that's a bad sign. Heh.
> and I see no reason
> you can't keep Sweden for a long time still.
Out of interest, how tempting will you find it to take
Sweeden if I sail the fleet their over to StP to reclaim
it (should Brent think that's a good idea). Not sure
if I'm prepared to even try it but you never know.
> Losing St Pete is a bit dissapointing, but at least it's a fleet
And at least Brent can actually make use of the build. Last
time England took my StP (with a fleet, again) he gained
more builds than he had open home centers. Doh.
> Also, I want to apologize for Den - Swe. For me it was nothing more than a
> defensive hedge bet in case you got into Norway and still took Berlin.
> I figured if that had happened, I would be in deep trouble. I hope you
> understand. Please let me know if that move offended you in any way.
Hey, if you can forgive the move to Sil in the first place
I'm sure that a failed unsupported move on one of my centers
is fine.
Well, I imagine that Austria will withdraw from the attack on
Germany now, the question is, will France and Germany break
up their newly formed tripple now that their target has
disintegrated itself? I sure hope so. What's the word on
the street?
Adam........
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:07 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Well, I'd like to say that the moves went well, they were
okay I guess. Considering the absolutely awful planning they
were perhaps okay. I'm probably just annoyed with england
for taking StP I think. It'll wear off. Hopefully I'll
get it back in a year or two. At least it's only a fleet.
An army there would be real bad news.
>From the moves, I'd guess that Austria's going to conculde
you were in on my little jaunt to Ser anyway. Your move to
Ven will have been the one that convinced him. Con would
be completely vunerable if Turkey hadn't let my fleet
survive for some reason too. It still isn't exactly
secure. You might have to attack Bul with it and
let Turkey retake the center in the short term I
think. I can use Bla to support you into Bul and
you can cut Gre's support yourself. Once you're
in Bul you can use that to support your A Tun
into Gre.
The map looks horribly messy to me actually, it'd have
been a lot neater if you'd moved an army to Gre like
I suggested. You just can't hold onto Con against a
probably-now-united AT.
This spring I think we have to basically cut all the
support we can find. Ven - Tri will then bounce, as
will any attacks against Rum. Ser will be safe and
Bul (and then gre in the fall) will be vunerable.
I can cut Bul's support with Ser or Bla, you can cut
Gre's support with Ion (or Tun), Gal can cut Bud's
support, though it may be better to hold so that
it can be supported itself. Smy is the only unit
who's supprt we can't cut. Smy S Ank - Con will
dislodge Con. If that works though, I can take
Ank with Bla and we're still keeping Turkey down.
What do you think? What would you like to see us
do?
Adam..........
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:16 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
It looks like everything went as planned, except that Russia moved to
Galacia and Serbia. I wasn't expecting that.
Austria
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:17 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Any idea why Russia did that?
Austria
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:21 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Good job convincing Russia to switch sides. No doubt it will not be
beneficial for him, but this just emphasizes your skill.
I attacked Munich because I said I would (and I told you so). Russia
told me he was moving to Berlin. Of course now my units will not bother
you again.
I trust that your relations are still good with England.
Austria
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:23 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Oh, one more thing, did Italy know about this?
Austria
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:26 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Yes, I see that Russia is attacking me. Congratulations for any part
that you had in this. I think Russia made a bad decision. Berlin would
have been much easier to hold onto, and he would have gotten a Turkish
center too.
I don't think I will be able to help you immediately, but I think this
means that you will do well. I think it is likely that you will survive
longer than Russia will. He has so many different fronts, none of them
secure. The best seems to be with Germany, but I know that England and
Germany have been rather chummy so far.
Austria
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:29 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
Thanks for moving out of Pie! I really appreciate it. :-)
Also, congratulations on your build!
It looks like A/R are fighting, which improves the situation for each of us.
It gives you a good opportunity to make gains against either Turkey or Austria,
and it allows me to attack E or G without worrying about AR crossing the
stalemate line.
Rod
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:31 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
That was rather generous of you, forgoing the sure thing in Ber.
Good luck in your new campaign!
Rod
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:32 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
Keith,
It's been a rather chaotic year, eh? Unfortunately, neither of us benefitted.
Better luck next year!
Rod
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:34 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Just an idea, but since the Russian troops are going to be quite tied up
for the near future, I think you would be able to slip a unit into
Livonia to take Warsaw and Moscow with little problem. At some point you
mgiht even team up with France again.
Austria
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:36 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
Wow, I was not expecting Russia to do that. I think he made a bad
decision. We will see.
What are you going to do now? England and Germany were chummy before,
weren't they? Perhaps they will cooperate both against Russia and
against you. Do you think it is possible for you to ally with Germany again?
Austria
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:37 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi, sorry but I don't check my e-mail early in the morning. I'm glad
that you moved the correct support. I thought I had made it clear to you
that this is what I was going to do. As for Aeg, I thought you would
move Ion-Tys and that I should move Gre-Aeg. That was the plan as I last
knew it. I would have been happy to convoy Tun-Con too.
I think Russia made a bad decision. It would have been a lot easier to
hold onto Berlin, and he would have gotten a Turkish center. If he is
attacking me, his two southern fleets are not so useful. Plus, England
and Germany were chummy before, and they are likely to continue being so.
What do you think?
Austria
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:38 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
>Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>Let me know what you need from me.
Build Armies and attack Russia.
Eric the Harassed.
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:41 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to England in 'gutsy':
Yes, I think Russia made a bad decision too. Berlin is much easier to
hold than any Austrian centers, and he could have gotten a Turkish center.
His two southern fleets are not very effective against me, and he must
realize that you and Germany have been chummy in the past. His most
secure front is with Germany. I see Germany is posed to be able to move
against France still, and it may be that this is what you two have
planned.
I don't know if Italy is in on this. I can't imagine that Russia would
be so bold without offers of support.
Austria
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:42 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
[Build Armies and attack Russia.]
I'm a bit torn as to builds. I was planning on F Lvp just to protect
myself should Rod decide he's now free to harass me again. The Edi
build is up in the air. Do you think an army would be more useful for
an attack on Russia? I've already got the army in London that I can
convoy into Norway, and I'm not sure that a second one would help. If
you can convince me that another army is more useful than another fleet
I'm willing to go in that direction.
Brent
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:44 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
It looks like your situation has improved considerably. Congratulations!
If only I had stayed in Lon after all.... Oh, well!
I think we can resume our campaign against England, though the delay (and his two
builds!) will make things difficult. Still, we're in good shape, particularly if
Russia is willing to lend us his northern fleet.
I think the ideal build against England would be F Kie, though you would need to
be confident that your border is no longer at risk.
Also, I'm looking forward to your imminent withdrawal from Bur. :-) What do you
think of DMZ'ing both Bur and Ruh this year?
Rod
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:45 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
It looks like England and Germany are both resurgent. Not exactly the ideal
situation for France, eh? ;-(
I definitely should've stayed in Lon....
Rod
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:49 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
Turkey is still in trouble, but at least we successfully saved Germany's hide -
or is that a detriment? ;-) I never imagined that he would get a build this year.
Given that A/R are no longer a threat to cross the stalemate line, I think we
should seriously consider turning our attention to matters in the west. I hope
you agree.
Rod
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:51 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England,
Germany and Turkey in 'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
Russia's move against Austria is very welcome, but Eric is not out of the woods yet.
What do y'all suggest for the Spring?
Rod
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:52 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> Wow, I was not expecting Russia to do that.
Neither did I.
> I think he made a bad decision.
I agree. Ber was free for the taking, and has the advantage of being across the
stalemate line.
> What are you going to do now?
I think my best bet is to foment an E/G war and pick a side.
Rod
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:57 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Why did you give London back ? I have been so busy lately that I have
truly missed something :-) I heard rumours of EFG and other rumours that
you are coming after me (which would be clever if there would have been a
_true_ RAI triple). Your move from London is strange. I do hope that you
are not coming to get my poor little centers. I know I wasn't the good guy
afterall when I moved to Piedmont but I hope you can forgive me now that
you see that I am not moving west at all. Would you mind to clarify the
Lon-Eng?
> Thanks for moving out of Pie! I really appreciate it. :-)
I just try to be the good guy. I hope Austria forgives me. My move
certainly looks like I'm not trusting Austria.
> Also, congratulations on your build!
Thanks. I think AR knew they were going to fight and that's why they both
helped me :-) I was so silent during the diplomacy period that I was sure
of bounce or something else not successful.
> It looks like A/R are fighting, which improves the situation for each of us.
> It gives you a good opportunity to make gains against either Turkey or Austria,
> and it allows me to attack E or G without worrying about AR crossing the
> stalemate line.
Rod I would like to bring the good old R-alliance back :-) To be honest I
am still afraid of your intensions especially 'cause you moved away from
London. I hope you did it to get Brent on your side. You still have a
fleet in English Channel and it is a good place to be.
Steve is quite a diplomat! He got a build I cannot believe my eyes.
Raine
From - Wed Oct 03 16:41:59 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
>Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>[Build Armies and attack Russia.]
>I was planning on F Lvp just to protect myself should Rod decide he's now
>free to harass me again.
A build of F Lvp would force Rod to attack in
self-defense. There's no reason to break up the WT,
now, especially as England.
>Do you think an army would be more useful for an attack on Russia? I've
>already got the army in London that I can convoy into Norway, and I'm not
>sure that a second one would help.
Sure, how can one Army support itself into Moscow?
You need Armies to attack Russia, not Fleets, and
if you're going to continue with the Western Triple,
Russia is your target.
Eric the Tactician.
From - Wed Oct 03 16:42:00 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
>> I think you are well positioned against Russia in the East
>
> Oh dear, that's a bad sign. Heh.
Oops. My fault. :)
In all seriousness, though, your position looks very good especially with
Eric losing that fleet and Italy being the one to draw first blood. I
imagine the Austrian/Balkan centers might switch around a bit this coming
year. What do you think your goals will be?
> In case you ever need to know, I don't think Raine will
> ever let up on a fight against someone, even if it's obviosly
> already won, until they're dead. That's pretty inflexible
> if you ask me, but we'll see.
I got the same impression talking to him a few letters back. He isn't in a
great position, though, to be inflexible. I would definitely have attacked
Greece instead especially if you told him you were attacking Serbia or
Bulgaria. I get the feeling, though, that Gre - Aeg really caught him off
guard. Now his Con fleet is isolated.
> Out of interest, how tempting will you find it to take
> Sweeden if I sail the fleet their over to StP to reclaim
> it (should Brent think that's a good idea).
I would probably find it a bit tempting, but honestly I don't think I would
try it unless you just steamrolled your way through Austria this year. If
you can sneak back to St Pete, I'm all in favor of it. The only reason I
would order Den - Swe this year is if you wanted me to bounce Brent in the
fall (assuming he retakes Norway).
> And at least Brent can actually make use of the build. Last
> time England took my StP (with a fleet, again) he gained
> more builds than he had open home centers. Doh.
Yea, I've seen that happen before. A big stab snags three builds, but
(ooops!) only one home center is open. Regarding St Pete and Brent, though,
what did he tell you he was doing last year? I'm trying to figure out how
honestly he has been in his press to me.
> Well, I imagine that Austria will withdraw from the attack on
> Germany now
Keith has said he will retreat and I see no reason he would lie.
> The question is, will France and Germany break
> up their newly formed tripple now that their target has
> disintegrated itself? I sure hope so. What's the word on
> the street?
Brent's a little sore at Rod still from his attack on London and he's a
little sore at me because of Hol - Nth. Oh yeah, Rod's a little sore at me
for my Mun - Bur stunt and I'm a little sore at Brent for calling in the AR
reinforcements last turn. So, I would be a little surprised if the triple
continued. :)
It's not like I really gain anything from it anyhow; the triple usually
stinks for Germany.
Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Wed Oct 03 16:42:03 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
My apologies for the bounce in Aeg. I was very nervous when I realized
that I won't get more replies from you. In future, please remember that
you are talking to stupid foreigner :-) Keep it simple, stupid (this comes
from ice-hockey coach who wanted his players to stop passing the puck
forever, so I am not calling you stupid).
> Hi, sorry but I don't check my e-mail early in the morning. I'm glad
> that you moved the correct support. I thought I had made it clear to you
> that this is what I was going to do. As for Aeg, I thought you would
> move Ion-Tys and that I should move Gre-Aeg. That was the plan as I last
> knew it. I would have been happy to convoy Tun-Con too.
When I saw your move to Aeg I realized what I should have realized
earlier. I just wasn't sure. It is easy to say afterwards but I would have
loved to move Tun-Con. I thought you would not like that option. So I
didn't mention it earlier.
> I think Russia made a bad decision. It would have been a lot easier to
> hold onto Berlin, and he would have gotten a Turkish center. If he is
> attacking me, his two southern fleets are not so useful. Plus, England
> and Germany were chummy before, and they are likely to continue being so.
Russia made a _very_ bad decision. He already had Steve against him and
then he did not move to Berlin but moved against you. This is not what I
wanted. I would like us to be the most solid alliance.
> What do you think?
Russia made a mistake and he is going to pay for that. His units are
spread even worse than mine. Eric told me that he is waiting for either R
or I to stab Austria. I tried to feed his thoughts by asking what he would
do if he knew that I was going to support myself to Greece. He never gave
a good answer, maybe he knew that Adam was going to attack you. His convoy
tells something. I am willing to co-operate with you against R,T or both.
Future:
-------
In the long run I would like to see you with no fleets. Now, there
is no hurry for that but in the long run. I will build fleet in Naples. Do
you have other ideas?
West:
-----
Do you think you can make peace with Steve? That would be nice for both of
us. Why do you think Rod moved from London?
Raine
Ps. What would you like me to do with my army in Venice. Let's talk about
it a way before the deadline, ok?
From - Wed Oct 03 16:42:04 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
What a mess. I am stupid, yes I am. Keith never told me excatly what he is
going to do. He _did_ mention that he could support me to Smy in fall but
hey I am the stupid foreigner :-) I didn't understand.
Now I want to thank you for your clear and understandable press. Thank
you.
You truly gave me creeps this morning :-) At one point I thought you are
too tired to make the moves I like. Thanks for cutting the support from
Ankara. I really needed that.
> The map looks horribly messy to me actually, it'd have
> been a lot neater if you'd moved an army to Gre like
> I suggested. You just can't hold onto Con against a
> probably-now-united AT.
The map is messy to me also :-) I hope AT won't unite. That would mean a
build to Turkey and removal to me. Let's talk about the move after I have
looked at the map more closely. At first sight it looks very complicated.
> What do you think? What would you like to see us do?
Well, at first I'd like to destroy Eric. He is still alive and kicking. He
can make our life miserable. I certainly do not want Eric to have a build
next year. This is comes to my mind at first but like I said I need to
look at the map with time. I am lucky that you are more at my timezone
'cause it makes things a lot easier.
Raine
Ps. I am going to build a fleet to Naples. Feel free to give me
advice/comment of my build.
From - Wed Oct 03 16:42:06 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> Why did you give London back ?
It was part of the EFG plan for countering RAI. Brent required it in return for
his cooperation. In retrospect, I should've just stayed in Lon - it would've
given me a much better position.
> I do hope that you
> are not coming to get my poor little centers.
No - they are much too far away to be attractive targets.
> I hope Austria forgives me. My move
> certainly looks like I'm not trusting Austria.
You need not apologize for covering your own home center when a growing neighbor
has forces adjacent to it.
> Rod I would like to bring the good old R-alliance back :-)
I would like that too.
> I hope you did it to get Brent on your side.
Yes. It unfortunately gives him two builds, but I am optimistic that he will not
use them against me.
> You still have a fleet in English Channel and it is a good place to be.
I agree.
> Steve is quite a diplomat! He got a build I cannot believe my eyes.
I was also surprised that he got a build. England and Germany growing at the same
time is not what I wanted to see.
Rod
From - Wed Oct 03 16:42:07 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
Is there any way you and Adam can make up now that Italy is in your
frontyard and Adam has turned on Keith?
This is the second time I find myself encouraging some sort of RT. That's
very strange for Germany, but bottom line, I believe Keith is a *far* better
tactical player than Adam (and most of the rest of us for that matter).
Plus, Serbia is way out of position. I'm very sure Keith is willing to fall
back to his home SCs plus Serbia which is an eminently acheivable goal.
Here's an idea which you may find totally silly, but I'll propose it anyhow.
How about you support the Black Sea into Constantinople and try pushing the
Russian fleet right into Raine and Keith? That might allow him to take Bul
(south coast) in the fall. Adam could re-form his front with A War, A Gal,
A Rum, F Bul(sc), and F Sev. You might even get a build out of it.
I realize Raine is a big factor here, but the carrot for that man should be
Greece. I have no clue why he didn't take it last turn; that is what both
Adam and I suggested and it would have paid off big time.
There's no way Keith can fight off both Adam and Raine. My only reservation
there is that Adam at least (and I tend to agree) believe Raine might be a
bit inflexible in his approach. Adam's moves might have been a bit erratic,
but Raine is the real wild-card. If there's anything you'd like me to say
to him, let me know.
Write if you'd like. If titleist gives you a break, I'd like to hear from
you.
Thanks for your support in the EFG+T thing. I appreciate it.
- Steve
From - Wed Oct 03 16:42:09 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
(...big sigh of relief...)
> It looks like your situation has improved considerably. Congratulations!
Thanks. That was a very difficult turn to play; hopefully the game will get
easier for both of us now.
> If only I had stayed in Lon after all.... Oh, well!
Yes, that would have been excellent, but your move out was totally
understandable. I'm sure Brent appreciated it and I certainly have to
problem with it. I just wish I had issued Den S Hol - Nth instead of
hedging my bets with Den - Swe. If you had held London *and* I had taken
North, we would have been golden.
If that had happened, our discussion now would be pure bliss. Sometimes I
wish I were just a bit more confident.
> I think we can resume our campaign against England, though
> the delay (and his two builds!) will make things difficult. Still,
> we're in good shape, particularly if Russia is willing to lend us his
> northern fleet.
I agree. See...no more monkeys. :)
I'm not sure what Adam is thinking about Sweden. I'm sure he is just
grateful to still have the unit. I know Eric didn't seem to think fleet St
Pete would hurt Adam much, and he might be right, but completely losing a
naval presence in the north is very bad for Russia.
Hopefully, Adam will be willing to order Swe - Nwy for a couple of turns.
That would tie Brent down while I move on the North Sea. How is your
relationship with Adam? First, though, does that make sense or is there
something else you would like to see Swe do?
> I think the ideal build against England would be F Kie, though
> you would need to be confident that your border is no longer at risk.
Yes, that would be ideal, but I will need to think just a bit more about
that...(okay, done). Keith has assured me Munich is safe and Adam is in no
position to about-face so soon. My only other option would be A Berlin and
an attack on Russia. That would be justified and exactly what Brent and
Keith want; reason enough not to. :)
The other reason for building a fleet now is that I might not get another
chance. If I waste a build with a knee-jerk defensive army, it might be
several years until my next center.
> Also, I'm looking forward to your imminent withdrawal from Bur. :-)
Yah, me too. I am trying my damndest.
> What do you think of DMZ'ing both Bur and Ruh this year?
I think that is an excellent idea. I expect to be out of Munich this spring
and can probably vacate Ruh in the fall. My only concern is Belgium. If
you don't plan on convoying Picardy or the convoy fails, would you be
offended if Ruhr supported Belgium in the fall? (Holland would be needed to
attack the North Sea.)
There are a lot of other tantalizing options we should probably discuss as
well. My head is spinning with the possibilities. :)
Also, England's builds are probably pretty obvious, two fleets, right? Is
there any reason we would want him to build an army?
Write when you can.
- Steve
P.S. If you feel you must order pic - par just in case and then support
yourself into Burgundy, I would understand. Afterall, I am the trespasser.
Hopefully, that won't be necessary.
P.P.S. (last one I promise) Isn't the situation in the east beautiful?
There are *no* defined lines and the political situation is just as garbled.
We should continue supporting Eric, though, as best we can.
From - Wed Oct 03 16:42:13 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Russia made a _very_ bad decision. He already had Steve against him and
> then he did not move to Berlin but moved against you. This is not what I
> wanted. I would like us to be the most solid alliance.
Perhaps he has made amends with Germany. Not moving to Berlin surely
raised the cooperation level between them.
> Russia made a mistake and he is going to pay for that. His units are
> spread even worse than mine. Eric told me that he is waiting for either R
> or I to stab Austria. I tried to feed his thoughts by asking what he would
> do if he knew that I was going to support myself to Greece. He never gave
> a good answer, maybe he knew that Adam was going to attack you. His convoy
> tells something. I am willing to co-operate with you against R,T or both.
I am surprised that Russia wouldn't contact you about attacking me.
Without your help, he is not going to get very far. Has he mentioned
anything now?
> In the long run I would like to see you with no fleets. Now, there
> is no hurry for that but in the long run. I will build fleet in Naples. Do
> you have other ideas?
I don't have any immediate ideas. It is going to be more difficult to
attack Turkey now. Turkey might even be able to kick you out of Con if
you are not careful. It seems like you have a big claim now on all the
Turkish centers, but it will take a larger investment now to get them.
I am happy to have no fleets eventually. You are still welcome to Greece
once I can exchange it for a Russian center.
> Do you think you can make peace with Steve? That would be nice for both of
> us. Why do you think Rod moved from London?
I am sure that Germany will bear no ill will. He sees that I must retreat.
> Ps. What would you like me to do with my army in Venice. Let's talk about
> it a way before the deadline, ok?
I don't require your assistance from Venice, only your neutrality (at
worst). Can you just hold Venice, or do you have another plan?
Austria
From - Wed Oct 03 16:42:15 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England, France and Germany in
'gutsy':
>Message from France to England, Germany and Turkey in 'gutsy':
>Russia's move against Austria is very welcome, but Eric is not out of the
>woods yet. What do y'all suggest for the Spring?
The Western Triple still seems like a good idea to me,
so I would suggest builds of A Kiel, A Edi, and A Lvp,
followed by MAO-WMed, StP/NC S Edi-Nwy, Den-Bal, Kie-Den.
This would allow Germany to take Sweden, and England to
move an Army into StP in the Fall.
Eric the Tactician. 8-)
From - Wed Oct 03 16:42:16 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
>Message from France to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>I definitely should've stayed in Lon....
I'm inclined to agree. I'm trying to talk Brent out
of building F Lvp, since it would be unnecessarily
provacative, and completely useless against Russia.
We'll see what happens.
Eric the First to Be Eliminated. 8-(
From - Wed Oct 03 16:42:17 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> I just wish I had issued Den S Hol - Nth instead of
> hedging my bets with Den - Swe. If you had held London *and* I had taken
> North, we would have been golden.
Indeed. If only we had *known* that AR would suddenly dissolve, that would've
been our best plan.
> How is your relationship with Adam?
Good - not that that means anything. I was totally surprised by his moves in
both S02 and F02, so I can't claim to be his closest confidant.
> First, though, does that make sense or is there
> something else you would like to see Swe do?
I think Swe-Nwy is as good a move as any. It pressures a center that you can't
reach (yet) and keeps him out of your hair.
> If I waste a build with a knee-jerk defensive army, it might be
> several years until my next center.
I agree. You have sufficient armies for the task at hand, and if Brent is building
fleets then we need all the naval power we can get.
> would you be offended if Ruhr supported Belgium in the fall?
Still paranoid about Bel, eh? ;-) If you feel that's necessary then I suppose
it's OK, but I hope it won't be necessary.
> Also, England's builds are probably pretty obvious, two fleets, right? Is
> there any reason we would want him to build an army?
Yeah - I'd like MAO-Iri to succeed unopposed. ;-) Maybe we should convince him
that EFG needs him to convoy armies into Scandinavia. Unfortunately, I'm not sure
he'd fall for it.
> Isn't the situation in the east beautiful?
> There are *no* defined lines and the political situation is just as garbled.
Yes, it's rather chaotic. :-) Though I must admit that I'd prefer for Russia to
appear threatening so that Brent continues pushing toward Scandinavia.
Rod
From - Wed Oct 03 16:42:24 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
>Is there any way you and Adam can make up now that Italy is in your
>frontyard and Adam has turned on Keith?
The move to Ser was my suggestion, though leaving Rum
open was foolish. I'll continue to work on him.
>I believe Keith is a *far* better tactical player than Adam (and most of
>the rest of us for that matter).
Keith must fear me, that's the only logic I can find
for his refusal to consider my offer of AT, but I'll
certainly continue to encourage RI vs. A.
>How about you support the Black Sea into Constantinople and try pushing the
>Russian fleet right into Raine and Keith? That might allow him to take
>Bul(south coast) in the fall.
Hmmm, interesting idea... Thanks.
>I realize Raine is a big factor here, I have no clue why he didn't take it
>last turn; that is what both Adam and I suggested and it would have paid
>off big time.
I did, too.
>Adam (and I tend to agree) believe Raine might be a bit inflexible in his
>approach.
*ROFL* The Finnish definition of "negotiate" is:
"Tell him what you want to do, and keep telling him
until he agrees."
>Raine is the real wild-card. If there's anything you'd like me to say to
>him, let me know.
Actually, if you could write Adam and complain about
how Raine is refusing to consider you ideas and
suggestions, that might help swing him over to my
side.
>Thanks for your support in the EFG+T thing. I appreciate it.
The Western Triple is good for Turkey. I just don't
think it's going to be good enough, soon enough.
Eric the Two-Center Power.
From - Wed Oct 03 16:42:26 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Lets be honest though, what do you think are the chances of the
Western triple holding at this point? Both France and Germany have
already approached me about attacking the other, and probably done the
same to each other about me. You're right that an army can't support
itself into Moscow, but even if I did build another army, who's going to
support it into Livonia?
As for F Lvp forcing Rod to attack, I don't see how a fleet in my home
center is more dangerous to him than a fleet in English Channel is to
me. I have to build a unit in Liverpool, and an army seems to do me no
good. A fleet gives me a strong defense , and yes, the option to attack
France should that become necessary.
How go negotiations in the East? As I said earlier, with Adam
immediately stabbing Keith, concern in the West is down quite a bit and
I don't think you can count on them to come to your rescue (and I can't
do it alone). So we need to find someone out there that will side with
you. Any ideas on who to go for?
Brent
From - Wed Oct 03 16:42:28 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
> so I would suggest builds of ... A Edi, and A Lvp,
Nudge, nudge - wink, wink!
;-}
Let's talk Western Triple in the press to E/T, but plan England's demise on the side.
Rod
From - Wed Oct 03 16:42:31 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
> I'm trying to talk Brent out of building F Lvp
Thanks for your support - F Lvp is indeed the last thing I want to see. It would
force me to switch from offense to defense. I had hoped that withdrawing from Lon
would placate him enough that he wouldn't build F Lvp, but I fear that the A/R squabble
will give him ideas of doing things other than pressuring Russia.
Rod
From - Wed Oct 03 16:42:33 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
What do you think of Eric's proposal? If the Triple is still necessary then I'll
commit to it, but I must admit that I'm not really enthusiastic about a drawn-out
campaign against Italy.
Rod
From - Wed Oct 03 16:42:34 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey,
England and Germany in 'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
> The Western Triple still seems like a good idea to me,
> so I would suggest builds of A Kiel, A Edi, and A Lvp,
> followed by MAO-WMed, StP/NC S Edi-Nwy, Den-Bal, Kie-Den.
> This would allow Germany to take Sweden, and England to
> move an Army into StP in the Fall.
I think that's a good idea. Russia is still vulnerable, and the A/R spat gives us
the perfect opportunity to take advantage of it. An army in StP and a fleet in Den
(with the possibility of a convoy to Lvn) is an excellent position.
However, I'm not likely to get any of the Russia centers myself (unless you want to
convoy Pic-Nwy!), and the conquest of Italy is still two years off. So if I commit
forces to the Med and Germany takes Swe, I'd like to suggest that I get Bel in
exchange. What do y'all think?
Rod
From - Wed Oct 03 16:42:36 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Two armies was not exactly the build I was imagining either. Eric is
really pushing the triple because he sees it as the best way for him to
be rescued, but I don't think that it is necessarily the best thing for
us anymore with Adam stabbing Keith. Germany is still as strong as
ever, and I did not appreciate his "purely defensive" (in his words)
move to the North Sea last turn. I would certainly be willing to listen
to alternatives. An attack against Italy is going to have to come
eventually though, right? Depending on the climate between you two, it
may be worthwhile to get a foothold now so that when the time comes
you'll already be in position.
How do you feel about my builds? It seems to me that F Lvp is the
only logical choice. An army in Liverpool just isn't going to have
anywhere to go for quite a while, and does me little good defensively.
I'm sure you'd prefer the army, but I'm afraid its going to take some
good strong reasons to make me go with it. Care to give it a shot?
Brent
From - Wed Oct 03 17:33:31 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
>> so I would suggest builds of ... A Edi, and A Lvp,
>
> Nudge, nudge - wink, wink!
>
> ;-}
>
> Let's talk Western Triple in the press to E/T, but plan England's demise
on the side.
Excellent. Can do. :)
- Steve
From - Wed Oct 03 17:33:32 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> Eric is really pushing the triple because he sees it as the best way for him to
> be rescued, but I don't think that it is necessarily the best thing for
> us anymore with Adam stabbing Keith.
I agree completely.
> An attack against Italy is going to have to come
> eventually though, right? Depending on the climate between you two, it
> may be worthwhile to get a foothold now so that when the time comes
> you'll already be in position.
Sure, I'll have to hit him eventually, but I don't want to alarm him while we still
have Germany to deal with. MAO is the closest I can get to a "foothold" - any move
further would surely antagonize Italy and force him to respond.
> I'm sure you'd prefer the army, but I'm afraid its going to take some
> good strong reasons to make me go with it. Care to give it a shot?
How long is F Lvp going to sit there? I'd feel leery of pushing all my fleets into
the Med (when the time comes) if you're perched on my back door.
I can't blame you for wanting a little "protection", but a fleet in Lvp doesn't
really have any long-term strategic benefit (except for keeping France nervous).
> I would certainly be willing to listen to alternatives.
You need to put a unit in Nwy, and it might as well be an army to give you long-term
offensive potential against Russia. (You'll need another target after Germany,
right?) ;-) An ideal position against G is to have fleets in Nth and Hel. And then
you'll want an army to convoy to the mainland.
So my recommendation is B F Edi, B A Lvp. Spring: StP-Nwy (bounce), Edi-Nth,
Nth-Hel. In the Fall, StP supports an army convoyed to Nwy (or Hel supports an army to Hol?). Meanwhile, I secure Bur and hit Bel. This will work best if Germany follows the Turk's plan of Den-Bal,
so you'd have to convince them you're pushing toward Russia. What do you think?
Rod
From - Wed Oct 03 17:33:34 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy and Austria in 'gutsy':
> It looks like everything went as planned, except that Russia moved to
> Galacia and Serbia. I wasn't expecting that.
Ahem, yeah, there was, um, a, err, last minute change
of plan. Sorry about that. Anyone up for helping me
into Vienna? You never know. Ahem.
Adam............
From - Wed Oct 03 17:33:40 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
As for whether Italy knew about this, would you believe me
if I said he did? That he didn't? That I don't know?
He reluctantly agreed to keep it quiet, basically.
Adam.........
From - Wed Oct 03 17:33:44 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Austria asked me if you knew about my plans to slip
into Ser. I don't think he'd believe it if I said
no so I told him that you 'reluctantly agreed to
keep it quiet'. That's the line I'd go for when you
talk to him. It's possible he'll try to talk you
around into helping him which could give us some
vital clues to his intentions.
Adam........
From - Wed Oct 03 18:08:15 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> That was rather generous of you, forgoing the sure thing in Ber.
> Good luck in your new campaign!
Well, the talk of a united GEF fighting us, and
a few words of encouragement from Steve, obviously,
plus the fact I thought Austria would probably
never leave himself as open as he was right then,
and if he did I'd probably be too entangled in
fighting Steve to do anything about it so...
Adam.........
From - Wed Oct 03 18:08:17 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
If you agree to leave Serbia peacefully, then there will no hard
feelings. I am just not quite sure I understand your reasoning. Your
units are spread out, and you seem to be making enemies of a number of
your neighbors. How many enemies can you handle? I don't want to be one
of them.
Austria
From - Wed Oct 03 18:28:43 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Master in 'gutsy':
END OF YEAR STATEMENT.
It's been a pretty exciting year. To begin with it looked
as if Austria and Italy and I were working together
pretty well in Turkey and we couldn't expect much more
fruit to come from that tree. One center each is all
you get if a Tripple attacks a country, which is
probably why you don't see it very often.
So we tried to talk about what we'd do next. It seemed
like we all agreed to move on France and Germany
between us. Raine resisted the idea of slingshotting
through Munich into France so all we could do was
send A Tri into Tyr while Italy pushed West.
So the deadline came and Keith reluctantly agreed to
move all his force north on the condition that Italy
moves on France and I moved into Sil. We should be
able to get at least one German center.
The moves went through, and everyone went insane talking
about the huge threat AIR presented to the whole of
Europe. I noticed that Raine in Italy was less
keen on moving on France than Keith and I thought.
There's essentially two ways to play diplomacy, Catlike
and Doglike. If you're a dog then you choose a victim
and rip him apart until there's nothing left. If you're
a cat you prefer to play with your food, maybe use
some of it as bait to collect bigger fish. I'm a cat
and I don't really much care if Turkey actually DIES,
I'm just happy to have him harmless and know where
my next supply center is comming from. Raine is doglike
and clearly won't pick another victim until Eric
is actually eliminated.
I prefer the cat method becasue it's easier to fight
two three center powers than one six center power.
It's harder to run a stop-the-leader alliance with
four to six small powers who aren't very interested
in the game anymore than it is with two powers who
are fighting for a draw against elimination. The small
powers know they'll be eliminated anyway eventually.
So Raine thought we were talking about The Future,
after Eric was dead when Keith and I were actually
talking about Now, since Eric is basically rendered
helpless and a couple of units down there can
make sure he dies eventually, just slowly.
This fact, combined with all the talk about FEG
getting united to fight us, and the friendly convincing
from Germany and Turkey, who both pointed out some
very valid strategies and holes in Austria's defence,
made me wonder if AIR was the right way to go.
Afterall, Keith is unlikely to open himself up like
that again in the future and even if he did I'd
be utterly wrapped up in a war with Germany that
I couldn't got out of easily. Worse, I'd lose
my conspiritor in that war too. Better to back
off from Steve while he can still forgive me and
slip into Serbia to take advantage of the holes
Keith has already opened.
It took a while to talk Raine into this. I still
don't think I really HAVE. I get the impression
that he's basically saying the same thing he was
when AR wanted him to move against France. Namely
that he's happy to attack Austria, After Eric Is
Dead. This is just so inflexible. Think of this:
If it were possible (I haven't examined the board
close enough to know if it is yet) to keep Eric
from getting a build this year by using all our
forces, I get the impression Raine would go for
that rather than taking a center each from Austria
(Again, I don't know if we can) and letting Eric
take back Con at the same time. Hey, if we backed
off on Eric a little he might even Help us take
a couple of centers from Keith.
Anyway, Raine only agreed in the end, even in this
After-Eric-Is-Dead sense, because of some last
minute crisis where Keith finally realized that
Raine wasn't going after France. There wasn't
much time before the deadline but I think AIR
would have fallen apart from Austria's direction
over that if there had.
The only other thing going on was England getting
a promise from me that I wouldn't build in StP if
he left StP and Swe alone. The move to Nwy was one
I told him about precicely to try and stop him
taking StP and steve probably wouldn't support
him into Swe anyway. Low and behold: England
took StP. Bah. I'm not really angry about it,
but it seems pretty pointless. Maybe I should
have told him I was aborting the attack on Steve,
it might have altered his attitude but I was
afraid if I spoke of it too widely it would
leak back to Keith.
Adam.........
From - Wed Oct 03 20:37:36 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
[And to think you took offense when I suggested protecting
StP might be worth while, even in the minor probably-wont-work
way I picked.]
Well, this idea kind of came out of that. It seemed pretty clear that as
long you held St. Pete we would have a problem in the North. Now we've got
a great bounce, StP - Nwy and Swe - Nwy. We're safe from moves, you're safe
from any further incursions from the North because my fleet is in the way,
and we can both concentrate elsewhere. Yes you've lost a center. But
you've got plenty more in your sights, and now you've gained someone that
knows they can trust you because you can't stab them.
This really wasn't meant to be an all-out declaration of war. It was my
key to getting "in" with the FG alliance. I was planning on using that to
then aid the Eastern alliance, but right now I'm not sure who the Eastern
alliance entails.
You've got enough enemies at this point, and I've got enough other
targets. If you can agree to let St. Pete's go for now, I think we can find
ways to help each other out. What do you think?
Brent
From - Wed Oct 03 20:37:39 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Good job convincing Russia to switch sides. No doubt it will not
> be beneficial for him, but this just emphasizes your skill.
Thanks, but I really had little to do with it. I just presented an argument
similar to the one I presented to you. I think the real push came from
somewhere else.
> I attacked Munich because I said I would (and I told you so). Russia
> told me he was moving to Berlin. Of course now my units will not
> bother you again.
I understand and I certainly don't hold any of this year against you. I
will probably support myself into Munich just to be sure, but that's about
it.
> I trust that your relations are still good with England.
Surprisingly, my relations are pretty good with all my neighbors. At least
I think so. :)
Good luck with Russia.
- Steve
From - Thu Oct 04 23:18:14 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
Thanks for your letter.
> Keith must fear me, that's the only logic I can find
> for his refusal to consider my offer of AT, but I'll
> certainly continue to encourage RI vs. A.
I came to the same conclusion. When the game started, I figured you and
Keith would gang up on Russia first and Italy second. The game would be
totally different if a more seasoned player like Rod was in the Russian
seat.
>>How about you support the Black Sea into Constantinople and try pushing
the
>>Russian fleet right into Raine and Keith? That might allow him to take
>>Bul(south coast) in the fall.
>
> Hmmm, interesting idea... Thanks.
The other appealing part about that is that the Russian fleet might just be
destroyed in the fall. That would inject a bit of certainty into the East.
I hope you don't find comments like this meddlesome. If so, let me know and
I'll quit it right off.
> *ROFL* The Finnish definition of "negotiate" is:
> "Tell him what you want to do, and keep telling him
> until he agrees."
Yep. And Raine is Finnish to the core. :)
> Actually, if you could write Adam and complain about
> how Raine is refusing to consider you ideas and
> suggestions, that might help swing him over to my
> side.
That's an excellent idea. I like the way you think, Eric. Will do.
Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Thu Oct 04 23:18:26 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
Excellent job getting a fifth center. I, myself, am happy that I didn't
lose a home SC; right now, that's good enough for me.
Write if you can; I thought we were talking pretty well there for a while.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Thu Oct 04 23:18:57 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England, France and Turkey in
'gutsy':
Just following up on Eric's and Rod's comments about the triple and builds.
If Brent and Rod are up for it, I'm all for the triple, but I think we each
need a couple of assurances.
My biggest concern is keeping Belgium and Holland while I suspect Brent's
biggest concern is my fleet in Holland. Rod obviously wants me out of
Burgundy (which I'm trying to do as fast as I can).
Tactically, Eric's suggested builds make excellent sense, but I bet Brent
would feel a bit vulnerable in the North Sea without a fleet in Edi. So, I
suggest splitting the difference. Maybe Brent can build an army in
Liverpool and a fleet in Edinburgh; that gives him the firepower to place an
army in Norway while also covering his backside in London and North.
Also, I was serious about disbanding Hol, I just need a good way to make in
happen. Since it is unlikely right now, I'm willing to move it against
Sweden.
Any comments? I'll be here for a bit.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:00 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England, France and Turkey in
'gutsy':
Just re-read a couple of recent posts:
Rod said:
> So if I commit forces to the Med and Germany takes Swe,
> I'd like to suggest that I get Bel in exchange.
I would consider letting Rod have Belgium if I got Sweden; positionally,
that gives me the insurance Germany usually lacks with the triple.
But, if it is to work, this triple thing has to be fair to everyone. Brent,
would you be happy with "going over the top"? You would probably get Moscow
and then you and I can discuss Warsaw.
Write if you'd like.
- Steve
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:02 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Master in
'gutsy':
End-Of-Year Summary
S01
Brent accidentally sent me a message intended for Steve. Not really a
big deal - except that it led to FG agreeing to try Sealion. ;-)
Of course, I also approached Brent about ganging up on Germany. We
decided to start with a "fake" FG alliance, then I'd switch gears and EF
would hit G. I revealed to Brent that FG had already decided on
Sealion, and that I would therefore move to Eng. Brent didn't care for
that much, but he eventually agreed to it.
I suggest to Brent the Fall continuation Nwg-Nwy, Nth-Hol, Yor-Lon (with
France taking Bel but *not* supporting Germany's Sealion move Den-Nth).
This gets E a build, limits G to only one build, and discourages a
French stab in Lon. Brent replied that if he takes the risk of letting
me into Eng then he should be rewarded with my supporting his convoyed
army to Bel in the Fall. I didn't really like the idea of France
getting only one build, but I figured it'd be better to come to some
sort of agreement than to argue without resolution, so I agreed to do
Eng S Yor-Bel, Pic-Bur in the Fall.
Raine and I agreed to leave each other alone.
F01
I had to decide whether to consummate my alliance with Brent or to stab
(via Sealion or Eng-Lon). I had a feeling that Brent might be a little
more trust-worthy than Steve, but I really didn't like the idea of
England jumping to five units while I got only one build. So I decided
to hit Lon in order to deny England a build. (This seemed better than
Eng S Den-Nth, which would've let E retreat Nth-Edi and B F Lvp from his
gain in Nwy.) If Brent had agreed to my suggestion of limiting G to a
single build (with me getting two and E one), I probably would've
followed through with the attack on Germany (in 1902), since he would've
been a very attractive target with only four units. However, that
doesn't necessarily mean that Brent would've been better off if he had
done things my way - I would've had a superior position and very well
could've stabbed him shortly thereafter.
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:07 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to France in
'gutsy':
1902
9/21/01 6:32pm
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:08 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
[Meanwhile, I secure Bur and hit Bel. ]
How is that going to work? You've only got three armies, and it seems
that in order to kick Germany out of Burgundy you'd have to cover 4 spaces.
I suppose F ENG could cover Pic, but I would not be very surprised to see
Bel - Pic, which would prevent that.
The two fleets that I was planning to build does leave me with only one
army to convoy, and it pretty much has to go to Norway. But building an
army in Liverpool still doesn't make any sense to me. You claim that fleet
doesn't have any long-term strategic benefit. Thats like saying that your
having a fleet in MAO has no strategic advantage. The fact is that it makes
a stab much more difficult, and you've already told me that you're inclined
to move in the direction that you see your greatest benefit. I want to make
sure that moving against Germany is where you see the greatest benefit.
Anyways, I've now revised my orders to be F Lvp and A Edi. A Edi can convoy
to Norway as planned. London is then available to be put on the continent
as soon as we're in position to get it there. The position is quite similar
to the one we discussed back in 1901, only now with a few more units on each
side. Your thoughts?
Brent
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:10 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
As I see it, we are almost back at 1901 in the West. Only you have a bit
of an advantage over France, France has a bit of an advantage over me with
the fleet in the Channel, and I have a bit of an advantage over... Russia.
Anyways, it seems to me that with the threat from the East under control,
your goals revert to your first stated one, taking care of the West quickly.
One of my first goals is also back in play, and that is getting an army or
two onto the continent. Lip-service to the triple aside, f you were able to
control both of our builds and moves, what would you see as the ideal way to
achieve both those goals?
Brent
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:14 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
You've stirred up a hornets nest in France, and now seem to be turning
your back on him. Do you think I can take him on alone? Or do you think
he's not going to come for you while all your units are occupied elsewere?
If either are true, I think you're mistaken. Without Austria and Russia
providing a distraction, I need to choose someone to partner with in the
West. If you're going after France, it becomes an easy choice. If you're
not, then things are much less certain. So what's the deal?
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:17 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> [Meanwhile, I secure Bur and hit Bel. ]
> How is that going to work? You've only got three armies, and it seems
> that in order to kick Germany out of Burgundy you'd have to cover 4 spaces.
I'm hoping he'll follow the Western Triple plan of Ruh S Bur-Mun,
Den-Bal. That makes things much easier for both of us.
> army to convoy, and it pretty much has to go to Norway. But building an
> army in Liverpool still doesn't make any sense to me. You claim that fleet
> doesn't have any long-term strategic benefit. Thats like saying that your
> having a fleet in MAO has no strategic advantage.
MAO eventually advances on Italy. What does F Lvp do? It sits there.
It has no offensive potential - except against France.
> The fact is that it makes
> a stab much more difficult, and you've already told me that you're inclined
> to move in the direction that you see your greatest benefit. I want to make
> sure that moving against Germany is where you see the greatest benefit.
Fair enough.
> Anyways, I've now revised my orders to be F Lvp and A Edi.
But that does little to confirm to me that moving against Germany is the
best option. Sure, it makes stabbing you unattractive, but it doesn't
really help us against Germany. Germany's six units make him very
strong defensively, and we have to hit him hard. I very much believe
that having fleets in both Nth and Hel is the leverage we need to make a
campaign against Germany viable. If you don't build F Edi then that
won't happen - unless you're willing to let me order Eng-Nth, but I
suspect that's not the case.
I'm about to go offline, so I can't promise any more replies until
tomorrow morning (i.e., after the builds).
Rod
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:20 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
[ Sure, it makes stabbing you unattractive, but it doesn't
really help us against Germany.]
It may not be your favorite way of doing it, but I still think it can
work. Obviously you'd like a bit more of a certainty that I'm going to
attack Germany, but now you know how I felt in Spring 1901. Its your turn
to take a bit of a risk if you want our alliance to grow.
I agree that having another fleet against Germany would be useful, but I
think that can still be arranged, though a bit later than you had planned.
I've been very honest with you from day 1, and have paid the price for it.
Now I hope that there can be some sort of reward. Put a little faith in me
and lets put together a plan of attack with what we have. I promise you
you'll be better off than you would be attacking me.
Brent
From - Thu Oct 04 23:19:36 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1902B Thu Oct 04 2001 22:33:36 +1200
Adjustment orders for Winter of 1902. (gutsy.006)
England: Builds a fleet in Liverpool.
England: Builds an army in Edinburgh.
Italy: Builds a fleet in Naples.
Germany: Builds a fleet in Kiel.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Movement for Spring of 1903.
The deadline for orders will be Tue Oct 09 2001 20:00:00 +1300.
