Fall 1901
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From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:28 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Turkey: Army Smyrna -> Armenia.
Oh, that doesn't look very friendly. It looks a little
UNfriendly in fact to me. Can I take it this means
you plan to deny the Rumanian people liberation by
their true Russian master? It's a shame if that's the
case since Italy seems to have decided to move against
Austria, or at least threaten him enough to take Gre.
Hope to hear from you very soon,
Adam.............
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:29 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Turkey: Army Smyrna -> Armenia.
Doesn't look like Eric is as friendly towards me as I
had hoped. It looks quite like we may be facing an AT
after all so I appologise for my conviction that it
wasn't the case and thank you for this:
> Italy: Army Venice -> Tyrolia.
Which should give you enough leaverage to take Gre rather
than Tun this fall if you want to risk Apu/Ion - Gre
and Tyr to Tri in case Keith decides to go for Gre
rather than back to Tri. I'm about to write to Kieth
and ask him to support me into Rum since the Turkish
A Arm can cut the only support I can give. He has said
to me earlier that he recognises my claim to the province,
we'll see if he recognises it enough to antagonise Eric
I guess.
What's your plan for A Tyr? Munich is probably the least
likely to be covered, but war with Germany would probably
be the worst option. Vie or Tri are 50/50 shots at best.
I've come to the conclusion that I like Italian A Tyr in
F1901. It keeps Austria and Germany on their toes anyway.
Meanwhile in the West, France has taken F Eng. I guess that
means Germany will choose France against England. I suppose
England will have to go defensive and put A Yor into Lon
while F Nwg goes to Nwy. Nth can support either France or
Germany into Bel to give the other a fright. If he does
anything other than that now I'd be almost shocked. To
be honest, I kinda hope he chooses to support F Eng into
Bel since a six center Germany gives me a chill.
What are your thoughts? Neither Eric nor Keith seem to
have made any anti-Italian moves though just before the
deadline Austria wrote to me saying he didn't trust you
and I tried to reassure him. I guess he believed me, even
though he said he didn't really. He'll definately think
you're after him with A Tyr though.
Adam............
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:31 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I have enormous workload at the moment. I try to answer you quickly.
> > Turkey: Army Smyrna -> Armenia.
>
> Doesn't look like Eric is as friendly towards me as I
> had hoped. It looks quite like we may be facing an AT
> after all so I appologise for my conviction that it
> wasn't the case and thank you for this:
>
> > Italy: Army Venice -> Tyrolia.
>
> Which should give you enough leaverage to take Gre rather
> than Tun this fall if you want to risk Apu/Ion - Gre
> and Tyr to Tri in case Keith decides to go for Gre
> rather than back to Tri. I'm about to write to Kieth
> and ask him to support me into Rum since the Turkish
> A Arm can cut the only support I can give. He has said
> to me earlier that he recognises my claim to the province,
> we'll see if he recognises it enough to antagonise Eric
> I guess.
I moved to Tyrolia simply 'cause I want people to know I exist.
I had nothing else to do with it. Piedmond was the other choise but I'd
not like to anger France. Germany hasn't replied to my notes :-( I hope
he starts to communicate with me now.
> What's your plan for A Tyr? Munich is probably the least
> likely to be covered, but war with Germany would probably
> be the worst option. Vie or Tri are 50/50 shots at best.
I don't have a plan, yet. Or the plan is that I have choises and that
people listen to what I have to say.
Raine
PS. I will give you a longer statement later.
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:33 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Italy: Army Venice -> Tyrolia.
Ouch, I'm sorry that I was apparently wrong about Italy,
I guess he could be going for Munich but it seems unlikely.
> Turkey: Army Smyrna -> Armenia.
Ah, this looks as bad for me as A Tyr does for you I guess.
You either take a risk or you're denied Gre and I could well
fail to take Rum if you don't use Ser to help me. Is there
much chance of convincing you to order A Ser S A Ukr - Rum?
Eric could have made a mistake with A Arm if we unite against
him since the army seems a long way from the front with us
now. With A Rum and A Ser We'd have a fair chance of getting
Bul for you next year and if we do unite against him maybe we
can even convince Italy to leave you alone and try and
convoy an army into Smy or Syr some time next year?
I think Germany looks like he's in a very good position. With
France in the English channel England has very few options this
fall. He more or less have to move A Yor - Lon and F Nwg - Nwy
which only leaves F Nth flexible. If I were him I'd probably
offer it to Germany and France to support one or the other
into Bel and try to break the FG alliance. A six center Germany
in 1902? It's frightening, but it's possible.
What should we do about Gal this fall? This is the trouble with
a bounce, it only really delays the question until a slightly
safer fall move. I guess another bounce could work, though
it might leave you exposed to A Tyr - Vie if you don't trust
me. A Gal can offer more support into Rum too of course.
If you and Italy can resolve your differences and convince
Raine to send Tyr to Munich, I could be tempted to move to
Pru or Sil with A War too. That six center Germany is a
little frightening.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Adam...........
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:35 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
> France: Fleet Brest -> English Channel.
Youch. I guess you didn't agree that with France, in fact
I'd guess you agreed with France that neither of you would
do that. Kinda locks you up for the fall I guess. I presume
you'll be taking Nwy with Nwg and covering Lon with Yor.
That leaves Nth to offer to France and Germany as support
into Bel to try and break their apparent alliance. If I
were Germany I'd we tempted but six centers in 1902 would
paint a large target on him. France can take Bel unless
you do support Germany into it of course. It's possible
that's all he wants I suppose.
Over here in the East I'm a little worried that Italy and
I are facing an AT, Eric and Keith together. Oh my. If that
is the case then I'm in a lot of trouble, lessened only
slightly by the fact Italy moved to Tyr. Hopefully I can
talk Keith around and get him to support me into Rum this
fall. We'll both have to cross our fingers I guess.
Adam............
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:36 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> France: Fleet Brest -> English Channel.
Well well, a surprise opening giving up on an Iberian
center this fall in return for a strong attack on
England and an almost forced Bel if you want it. Well
done. I think I can assume England didn't know you planned
it anyway, but A Yor rather than A Edi perhaps shows
some amount of distrust.
Over in the East I'm getting scared. I know Eric and
Kieth haven't talked to me a great deal, and Italy says
that they haven't been terribly chatty with him either.
I assumed this meant they were just fairly quiet types
but it looks like they may have been plotting behind
everyone's back. A Arm can potentially mean I fail
to get Rum this year, I could also see a Turkish Fleet
in Bla at the end of the year which would be horrible,
but not quite as horrible as trying to bounce it again
and loosing Sev when Ank holds. Thank goodness Raine
decided to move to Tyr, if Austria feels threatened
he may decide to switch sides more easily.
How surprising do you find the results this spring? Tyr
Arm and Eng are the least expected I guess, along with
the potential for a six center Germany at the end of
the year if England helps him into Bel to try and
break the alliance I assume you have with him.
Adam..........
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:38 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
Wow, I guess England looks like he's on the ropes now. If
I were playing E you and France could both expect notes
offering you support into Bel now. It's unusual to see
France give up on an Iberian center for a year like that,
I guess you and he made some serious plans huh? I hope
that the fact you have the fleet in Den doesn't mean
you intend to bounce me in Swe, I doubt it but I thought
I'd check.
I thought I'd check because it looks like I'm in some
trouble in the south. I suspected that would be the
most difficult border and it looks as though I was right
on that at least. Eric in Turkey has his knife drawn
already and if it weren't for Italy being in Tyr I'd
have Austria down as doing the same. At least if Austria
has to worry about Italy he's less likely to want
another enemy in me.
What are your impressions after the first season?
Adam.........
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:41 2001
Broadcast message [from Elladan915 at netzero.net,Dip_Power at hotmail.com as
Turkey] in 'gutsy':
>Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:54:16 +1200
>:: Deadline: S1901M Mon Sep 17 2001 23:30:00 +1200
>
>Movement results for Spring of 1901. (gutsy.001)
Whoops! Interesting that no-one Set Wait...
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:43 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
>Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> > Turkey: Army Smyrna -> Armenia.
>
>Oh, that doesn't look very friendly.
I'm sorry. I didn't realize that the Monday
deadline was an early Monday morning deadline, and
based on Roger's Broadcast didn't expect the turn
to process before tomorrow, anyway. I was planning
to check in with you today and see if you had changed
your mind about Sev Hold, Ank-Con, and adjust my
orders for Ank and Smy accordingly. The bright side
is that no-one will expect a Juggernaut, now. 8-)
I haven't mapped the results, yet, but I don't see
any advantage in bouncing Ukr-Rum. Once again, my
apologies.
Eric the Turk.
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:46 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> I'm sorry. I didn't realize that the Monday
> deadline was an early Monday morning deadline, and
> based on Roger's Broadcast didn't expect the turn
> to process before tomorrow, anyway.
I've no idea what time zone the Judge is in but the
NZ part in the name makes me suspect New Zealand which
either 12 hours ahead or 12 hours behind GMT I think.
Probably ahead. Seems that the move processed a few hours
early because nobody set wait anyway.
> I was planning
> to check in with you today and see if you had changed
> your mind about Sev Hold, Ank-Con, and adjust my
> orders for Ank and Smy accordingly. The bright side
> is that no-one will expect a Juggernaut, now. 8-)
Well, okay I guess. It looks like Raine has started
the attact on Austria for us anyway so I guess we'll
just be joining in the frey by the time we're untangled
here. It's a shame you didn't move Smy to Con since there's
a fairly good change Gre will be left open this year
since Keith will have to cover Tri and Vie now. Maybe
Italy will take it instead of Tunis though.
> I haven't mapped the results, yet, but I don't see
> any advantage in bouncing Ukr-Rum. Once again, my
> apologies.
So on the assumption that this apology is genuine,
we should work out what our plans are for the fall.
I guess it can't hurt for you to try for Gre from
Bul. At worse you'll end up there and Ser in Bul,
or you'll bounce with either Italy and/or Austria.
You'll want either Smy or Con open for your build,
the other occupied by Ank or Arm and I'll want Arm
to move somewhere other than Sev.
I guess I stick to my plan of F Sev S A Ukr - Rum and
F Bot - Swe, the question being what to do with A War.
Keith is less likely to want to bounce this fall and Gal
would be a nice place to have my army but I'm a little
worried about a potential six power Germany by the winter.
It seems he and France are after England and if I were England
I'd offer Bel to Germany to try and break the FG alliance
while also making Germany an early-leader target. Maybe that's
nothing to worry about and A War - Gal is still the right
move but I'm not sure. What do you think?
Adam..........
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:51 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Well, that went about as expected. Now comes the tough part. I of course
have to make it appear to everyone else that I was stabbed. You may hear
some harsh statements about France coming to you second hand, but thats of
course all part of the act. Its great that you are willing to go with one
build in order to facilitate our having a better position. I'm sure our
future gains will more than make up for it. More from me later.
Brent
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:49 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
Dang it. I went back and forth a lot on whether or not to cover the
Channel, but Rod had negotiated pretty hard for a DMZ there, and I didn't
want to look like the aggressor. In hindsight, its pretty obvious why he
negotiated so hard for the DMZ, but I felt that I had to hope. Now you are
my only chance. Are you still willing to forego the "Sealion" which I'm
sure France believes is in effect and support me into Belgium? It may
result in my losing London, but if I can gain both Norway and Belgium, that
should be only a temporary loss. Another option would be to move Nth - Bel
and Yor - Lon, but I think France will expect me to cover London, and if I
do get in that means I can't build there, and I've lost the North Sea. The
convoy to Belgium seems to be the better way to go.
Elsewhere in the world, a few interesting results. The Italian move to
Tyrolia is a very interesting one, since he didn't back it up with Rome to
Venice. It looks like it may just be a ploy for influence, but I guess an
attack on Munich isn't out of the question. Turkey and Austria seem to be
pretty closely tied as you expected. Thats going to put Russia in a tough
position, which is fine for us. It should keep him out of the North until
we're ready to deal with him. Overall, things don't look too bad, as I long
as I can trust in receiving your help.
Brent
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:52 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
You are of course correct, that was not an agreed upon move to the
Channel. Rod argued pretty hard for a DMZ there, for reasons which are now
clear. In fact, when the German moves are taken into account also, this
looks like a classic Sealion opening, the bane of Englands everywhere. I
would ask for your support, but unfortunately it looks like you are
otherwise occupied in the South. The good news for you is that it should at
least mean that Sweden will be unopposed. Perhaps that fleet can continue
to support me from there if the Sealion does indeed emerge. It looks like
all the half-joking predicitions about taking out the "rookies" first is
coming to pass in a big way, and I only hope we can find some way to turn
the tide.
Brent
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:54 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy and Turkey in 'gutsy':
I am very pleased by the results as far as our alliance is concerned (not
so pleased about other things of course). Turkey has given his full
commitment towards attacking Russia, which will hopefully make Italy more
comfortable in shifting to the West. France looks to be pretty committed to
a Northern push, so the door should be wide open for Italy to walk in. I'm
also working on trying to get Germany to join in, though of course not
mentioning anything about Italy being involved. My own part now seems to be
to hold off France until the initial stab can be made. At this point I
should become free to be more involved. Of course, if Germany can indeed be
convinced to owrk as our unknowing fourth, things may happen faster than
that. I'd appreciate any information that either of you can gather as to
Germany's intentions, as the possibility still exists from their moves that
the Sealion which I unfortunately discarded as a possibility is indeed
happening. I am very pleased to see this alliance off to a good start, and
hope that it will continue to gain strength in the coming seasons.
Brent
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:57 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Austria in 'gutsy':
Nothing too exciting in that set of results. France and Germany look to
be going Sealion, I'm trying to steer them away from it. Italy's move to
Tyrolia is an interesting one, since I would normally expect that to be
followed with Rom - Ven. Was this an agreed upon move, or something he's
done to try to get more influence in the area. It looks like you and Turkey
are pretty solidly together, at least in Russia's mind. He's already
contacted me with concern about that and asking if I had any information.
I've told him that I don't, which so far is the truth! Anyways, if you hear
anything that may be useful about the West (especially as it concerns
whether or not this is a Sealion), and would like to pass it on to me, I'd
much appreciate it.
Brent
From - Mon Sep 17 20:15:59 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Now I have more time for gutsy.
I want to underline that no matter how eastern alliances
turn out to be I am your ally. I have no clear view how
east is going to resolve but I will help you if I only
can.
> Doesn't look like Eric is as friendly towards me as I
> had hoped. It looks quite like we may be facing an AT
> after all so I appologise for my conviction that it
> wasn't the case and thank you for this:
They have both been so silent compared to you that AT
is no surprise. I would prefer RAI against T.
> > Italy: Army Venice -> Tyrolia.
Like I said I moved like this due to diplomatic choises it
gives to me. I do not have a solid plan, yet.
> Which should give you enough leaverage to take Gre rather
> than Tun this fall if you want to risk Apu/Ion - Gre
> and Tyr to Tri in case Keith decides to go for Gre
> rather than back to Tri. I'm about to write to Kieth
> and ask him to support me into Rum since the Turkish
> A Arm can cut the only support I can give. He has said
> to me earlier that he recognises my claim to the province,
> we'll see if he recognises it enough to antagonise Eric
> I guess.
I hope you will get the support from Austria. I am not too
enthuastic about the attack against Austria. I am willing
to make threats but I am not willing to attack.
> What's your plan for A Tyr? Munich is probably the least
> likely to be covered, but war with Germany would probably
> be the worst option. Vie or Tri are 50/50 shots at best.
Like I said I think my army in Tyr is only a diplomatic
weapon. I don't see it is sensible to attack anyone with
that lonely unit. Maybe is someone is annoying I'll bite him
:-)
> I've come to the conclusion that I like Italian A Tyr in
> F1901. It keeps Austria and Germany on their toes anyway.
That is what I am going to do. Probably nothing more.
> Meanwhile in the West, France has taken F Eng. I guess that
> means Germany will choose France against England. I suppose
> England will have to go defensive and put A Yor into Lon
> while F Nwg goes to Nwy. Nth can support either France or
> Germany into Bel to give the other a fright. If he does
> anything other than that now I'd be almost shocked. To
> be honest, I kinda hope he chooses to support F Eng into
> Bel since a six center Germany gives me a chill.
A fleet in Norway rather than army is good news to you.
That fleet cannot go for example to Finland. I am a bit
confused that England is not screaming for help but he
is amazingly cool after the moves :-O
> What are your thoughts? Neither Eric nor Keith seem to
> have made any anti-Italian moves though just before the
> deadline Austria wrote to me saying he didn't trust you
> and I tried to reassure him. I guess he believed me, even
> though he said he didn't really. He'll definately think
> you're after him with A Tyr though.
Really? What did Austria excatly say? I mean he talks way
too little to be treated like best ally but I found it
amazing that he talks like that to you.
Sweden: Do you think Steven will give Sweden to you ?
He should see that you are not makin advance in south with
bounces in Gal and Bla. That should give you a chance to
get to Sweden. Just let me know if there is anything I can
do help in the Swedish situation.
Raine
Ps. Do you think it is possible that F will move ECh-Bel
with support? I might be wrong but E is too cool...
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:01 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
> this looks like a classic Sealion opening, the bane of Englands everywhere.
That's what I was thinking. If it is a sealion then the next
move Germany and France will make is to use Eng to support
Den into Nth while France takes Bel. You could put a stop
to the second half of that at least by bouncing Bel with
Nth, or you could support Nth with Nwg and miss out on Nwy.
> I would ask for your support, but unfortunately it looks like you are
> otherwise occupied in the South.
Yes, it does look like Eric has taken a dislike to me. He's told
me that the order was an accident, he didn't expect the deadline
and intended to change his order but it looks more like an excuse
trying to hide an AT to me.
> The good news for you is that it should at
> least mean that Sweden will be unopposed. Perhaps that fleet can continue
> to support me from there if the Sealion does indeed emerge.
Hopefully. I'll have to build a unit in StP if I intend to
take any provocative action in the north, one unit just isn't
enough, but I don't want to see England eliminated by 1904
for sure.
> It looks like all the half-joking predicitions about taking out
> the "rookies" first is coming to pass in a big way, and I only
> hope we can find some way to turn the tide.
Offer anything you can give, this is my plan. I think that
the Italian move to Tyr could help us both though. Germany
won't want an Italian army in Munich and Austria won't wont
one in Tri or Vie either, it could put a spanner in both their
evil plans. I'm hoping it will work as leaverage of some
kind anyway, I'm just not sure what kind. AT don't talk
enough for me to have a lot of hope of talking them around
however, we'll have to see.
Good luck, consider either supporting France/Germany into Bel
or else bouncing France in Bel if all negotations fail. Sometimes
something as simple as supporting a French unit that doens't
expect the support can give Germany things to doubt.
Adam.........
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:03 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
> I want to underline that no matter how eastern alliances
> turn out to be I am your ally. I have no clear view how
> east is going to resolve but I will help you if I only
> can.
That's good, I'm definately on your side over these
two cowboys here too. I think we agree that in an ideal
world we'd want to get rid of Turkey first and then
turn of Austria - possibly just before Turkey is actually
dead.
> They have both been so silent compared to you that AT
> is no surprise. I would prefer RAI against T.
Well, I'm pretty sure I don't belive him but Eric has
written saying that the A Smy - Arm was a mistake, he
reckons it was a provisional order which he intended
to change but the moves went through before he could
manage that. We'll see what Keith has to say when
he gets around to it.
> Like I said I moved like this due to diplomatic choises it
> gives to me. I do not have a solid plan, yet.
I hope you're writing to Keith and impressing on him
that you'd like to see him attack Turkey, maybe give
you Greece or help you convoy into Turkey next year.
> I hope you will get the support from Austria. I am not too
> enthuastic about the attack against Austria. I am willing
> to make threats but I am not willing to attack.
Again, sounds like you should be saying this to Keith,
but I'll tell him you're saying the same to me if he
asks.
> A fleet in Norway rather than army is good news to you.
> That fleet cannot go for example to Finland. I am a bit
> confused that England is not screaming for help but he
> is amazingly cool after the moves :-O
He's asked me for help, not a scream of course but a
request about supporting Nwy from Swe if I get in there,
hoping that I'd be able to move anti-german but realising
that I've probably got a lot on in the south. I'm sure
he's reserving all his most elequent and passionate press
for France and Germany.
> > What are your thoughts? Neither Eric nor Keith seem to
> > have made any anti-Italian moves though just before the
> > deadline Austria wrote to me saying he didn't trust you
> > and I tried to reassure him. I guess he believed me, even
> > though he said he didn't really. He'll definately think
> > you're after him with A Tyr though.
>
> Really? What did Austria excatly say? I mean he talks way
> too little to be treated like best ally but I found it
> amazing that he talks like that to you.
I don't like to pass on press but he said that he thought
you might move against Turkey but he had some doubts about
it and that he thought maybe you'd attack him instead. He
also said he'd done "Everything Possible" to convince you
not to attack him. I think he was looking for some assurance
before he sent in his orders, I gave it to him but he may
now think he was right be be concerned.
> Sweden: Do you think Steven will give Sweden to you ?
I think so, but he hasn't written for a while. I think he
and France probably want to finish off England quickly, not
make another enemy. Or he may decide to join England and take
Bel in which case he'd want another six SC power on the board
to point to rather than stick his head up too high.
> Ps. Do you think it is possible that F will move ECh-Bel
> with support? I might be wrong but E is too cool...
I think it's entirely possible. If England's army had moved
to Edi (which I'm sure France wanted) then he'd be guarenteed
Lon now but with A Yor England can bounce London so France
may be looking at Bel wondering if he can get that instead.
There's little chance of F Nth - Eng though, so I'd imagine
the order is more likely to be F Eng S A Pic - Bel but you
never know. The classic sealion would have F Eng S F Den - Nth
I believe, with Pic moving to Bel unsupported. England would
probably be wise to order Nth - Bel if all negotiations fail,
at least keep France down to one build and he can then retreat
into Nwy. I'll probably mention that to him next time we
speak.
Adam...........
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:05 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> Wow, quite a bit has happened since I last talked to you.
Yes, it's been quite a week. I hope all is well with you.
> Anyways, just wanted to confirm with you that nothing has
> changed and that my orders are in as planned. Anything new with
> you?
Nothing new here. I'm still planning Eng S Yor-Bel, Pic-Bur for the
Fall.
> Well, that went about as expected.
Yes, except that Italy's presence in Tyl makes things a little more
interesting. ;-) Maybe we can yet arrange for Germany to get one
build rather than two.
> Now comes the tough part. I of course have to make it appear to
> everyone else that I was stabbed. You may hear some harsh
> statements about France coming to you second hand, but thats of
> course all part of the act.
Of course. :-) You have the difficult acting part. I just have to
play along with FG, which is probably what everyone has assumed by now
anyway.
> Its great that you are willing to go with one build in order to
> facilitate our having a better position. I'm sure our
> future gains will more than make up for it.
I concur. We should be in excellent position for 1902, and the
situation in the east appears ideal for us. I don't think we'll
have to worry about anyone but Germany in the near future.
Rod
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:06 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> It hit home pretty hard;
> one lost and one temporarily unaccounted for (now found, thank God).
I'm sorry to hear that you were personally affected. I guess I'm
somewhat "lucky", in that I didn't know any of the victims.
> gutsy-land remains pretty much the same.
Indeed, though Ven-Tyl is an unexpected wrinkle. Are you able to
follow through with the full Sealion plan, or must you protect Mun?
Rod
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:08 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> I think I can assume England didn't know you planned
> it anyway,
I think you're right. I would've expected him to bounce me if he had
anticipated my move.
> but A Yor rather than A Edi perhaps shows
> some amount of distrust.
Now, let's not use a nasty word like "distrust" - let's just call it
prudence. ;-)
> Over in the East I'm getting scared. I know Eric and
> Kieth haven't talked to me a great deal, and Italy says
> that they haven't been terribly chatty with him either.
> I assumed this meant they were just fairly quiet types
> but it looks like they may have been plotting behind
> everyone's back.
Keith has been terse in his press - his experience is mostly nopress,
and I think he's just not that talkative. I did have some friendly
banter with Eric, so if he hasn't said much with you then that's
probably a bad sign.
> Thank goodness Raine decided to move to Tyr, if Austria feels
> threatened he may decide to switch sides more easily.
I was not expecting the move to Tyr, so I don't know who his target
is. If he goes for Tri then Austria must sacrifice some offensive
potential in order to bounce him. An Italian move to Gre would help
you as well, though I think he'll prefer the guaranteed build from
Tun.
> How surprising do you find the results this spring? Tyr
> Arm and Eng are the least expected I guess
I concur with your assesment.
> along with the potential for a six center Germany at the end of
> the year if England helps him into Bel to try and
> break the alliance I assume you have with him.
I'm sure England will try to break FG, but hopefully I can keep
Germany on board. Besides, if he feels threatened by the Italian
army in Tyr, he probably won't try for both Hol and Bel.
Rod
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:09 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
Well, everything is going according to plan for me, and I assume that
you are pleased by the turn results as well.
I must admit that I was a little surprised by your move to Tyl, though
it's definitely a good move. :-) Do you mind sharing your intentions
for that army? Russia has told me that he's concerned about AT, so
he'll probably ask you to hit Tri. Of course, there's always the risk
that bounce BLA, Sev-Arm is just RT in disguise.
Rod
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:12 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
GVJ,
Well, you've made Russia nervous. Congratulations! ;-)
Rod
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:11 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
Keith,
How are things going in the east? I was pleased with the results in
the west. Is Italy's move to Tyl a stab, or part of your dastardly
plan? ;-)
Rod
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:14 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
>Message from France to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>Well, you've made Russia nervous. Congratulations! ;-)
Not as nervous as you've made England... ;^} The
funny thing is, I had just submitted those orders
days ago to have something in, without any intention
of actually attacking Russia, or plan to leave them
that way. Then, between the terrorist thing, nobody
setting wait, and the GMT + 12 deadline, the moves
processed before I had a chance to confirm intentions
with Adam and Keith, and finalize my moves. I guess
we'll see what happens, now. 8-)
Eric the Turk.
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:15 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
> Then, between the terrorist thing, nobody
> setting wait, and the GMT + 12 deadline, the moves
> processed before I had a chance to confirm intentions
> with Adam and Keith, and finalize my moves.
Well, at least you didn't have to make an agonizing decision over
whether to stab. ;-)
> I guess we'll see what happens, now.
Looks like you're pretty much committed to me. :-)
Rod
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:17 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I am afraid of Juggernaut. Why? I gave Russia a piece of info and then
> suddenly Turkey mails me and is aware of that. I hope I am overreacting.
>
> Have you talked much with Turkey? Do you agree my fear of RT?
Turkey has not been quick to respond to me, for some reason. Neither he
nor Russia have given any indication of their relationship or what they
expected the other to do. Turkey's move to Armenia may be an indication
that Turkey wants to attack Russia. It is also quite possibly a ploy to
get us to let our guards down. Don't tell anyone, but I'm leaning
towards the latter until I'm convinced otherwise. I will be negotiating
with Turkey and Russia as if they are hostile to each other.
> Thanks. I would like to move Nap-Ion,Rom-Apu and Ven-Tyr. Is that ok to
> you? I think those moves are the best I can do to defend against RT alias
> juggernaut.
Tyrolia is okay, but what do you plan to do with it? It is Austrian
territory, you know.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:23 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> > Italy: Army Venice -> Tyrolia.
>
> Ouch, I'm sorry that I was apparently wrong about Italy,
> I guess he could be going for Munich but it seems unlikely.
I wasn't expecting that. Try to see if you can gather what Italy intends
to do with it.
> > Turkey: Army Smyrna -> Armenia.
>
> Ah, this looks as bad for me as A Tyr does for you I guess.
> You either take a risk or you're denied Gre and I could well
> fail to take Rum if you don't use Ser to help me. Is there
> much chance of convincing you to order A Ser S A Ukr - Rum?
No, I need to look out for myself first. I stand by my statement that
Rumania is yours. If Turkey keeps you from it for some reason, then I
will help you get it next year.
> Eric could have made a mistake with A Arm if we unite against
> him since the army seems a long way from the front with us
> now. With A Rum and A Ser We'd have a fair chance of getting
> Bul for you next year and if we do unite against him maybe we
> can even convince Italy to leave you alone and try and
> convoy an army into Smy or Syr some time next year?
That's what Italy wanted to do the last time I heard.
> I think Germany looks like he's in a very good position. With
> France in the English channel England has very few options this
> fall. He more or less have to move A Yor - Lon and F Nwg - Nwy
> which only leaves F Nth flexible. If I were him I'd probably
> offer it to Germany and France to support one or the other
> into Bel and try to break the FG alliance. A six center Germany
> in 1902? It's frightening, but it's possible.
Yes, what are you going to do about it? A strong Germany threatens you
first, but eventually will become a problem for me too.
> What should we do about Gal this fall? This is the trouble with
> a bounce, it only really delays the question until a slightly
> safer fall move. I guess another bounce could work, though
> it might leave you exposed to A Tyr - Vie if you don't trust
> me. A Gal can offer more support into Rum too of course.
What would you prefer? Do you have something else you'd like to do with
Warsaw?
> If you and Italy can resolve your differences and convince
> Raine to send Tyr to Munich, I could be tempted to move to
> Pru or Sil with A War too. That six center Germany is a
> little frightening.
It is too early for me to tell whether Italy and I actually have any
differences. I don't know what he intends to do with Tyrolia. If he
plans to attack me, he will do it with your blessing, probably, so let me
know what he is telling you, okay?
Austria
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:25 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
>Message from France to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>Well, at least you didn't have to make an agonizing decision over whether
>to stab. ;-)
I haven't played Turkey often, but I've come to
favor the Turkish Hedgehog (Smy-Arm, Ank-Con, Con-Bul)
as an opening. It keeps Russia honest while defending
against the Lepanto. Adam wanted to bounce Bla though,
so that shifted it into a Russian Attack.
> > I guess we'll see what happens, now.
>Looks like you're pretty much committed to me. :-)
Adam's likely to order Sev S Ukr-Rum, so Ank-Con,
Arm-Ank, Bul-Gre, B F Smy has the potential to put the
Juggernaut back on track. Given Nap-Ion, Rom-Apu, I
have to consider the Lepanto as a real threat, so I
don't see that I'm committed at all. I'll have to see
what everyone has to say.
Eric the Turk.
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:27 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to England in 'gutsy':
> Nothing too exciting in that set of results. France and Germany look to
> be going Sealion, I'm trying to steer them away from it. Italy's move to
> Tyrolia is an interesting one, since I would normally expect that to be
> followed with Rom - Ven. Was this an agreed upon move, or something he's
> done to try to get more influence in the area. It looks like you and Turkey
> are pretty solidly together, at least in Russia's mind. He's already
> contacted me with concern about that and asking if I had any information.
> I've told him that I don't, which so far is the truth! Anyways, if you hear
> anything that may be useful about the West (especially as it concerns
> whether or not this is a Sealion), and would like to pass it on to me, I'd
> much appreciate it.
Italy's move was a surprise, and I don't know what he intends to do with
it. If I were playing Italy, I'd move to Munich.
I don't have any information about France or Germany. They have not
informed me of their plans.
It is possible that Russia and Turkey are having a conflict. It is too
sure for me to tell. Turkey has not been very communicative with me, so
I am somewhat skeptical.
Good luck.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:29 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> How are things going in the east? I was pleased with the results in
> the west. Is Italy's move to Tyl a stab, or part of your dastardly
> plan? ;-)
Italy's move was a surprise to me, but it is not necessarily bad,
depending on what he plans to do with it. If I become concerned about
him, he has a 50-50 chance of getting Vie or Tri, which I don't think he
would take.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:32 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Are you planning to bounce Russia from Sweden?
Also, England is convinced that you and France are allied (or so he tells
me).
Too early to tell whether Russia and Turkey are actually allied, or
whether the move to Armenia was a ploy. What do you think?
Austria
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:34 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
It will be interesting to see what you do in the Fall. I'm still going
to support myself to Greece. Russia asked for support to Rumania, which
makes me think that this could be some sort of conspiracy between you and
Russia (you have nothing better to do with Arm), or else you are selling
this to Russia as a fake move.
I was not expecting Italy's move to Tyrolia. I will try to find out what
he plans for it. Let me know if you hear anything.
Do you think Germany will bounce Russia from Sweden?
Austria
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:36 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
Oh, could you tell me if anyone requests that you bounce Russia from
Sweden? I would be most interested to know.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:39 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Message from Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>It will be interesting to see what you do in the Fall.
Yeah, I'm wondering about that, myself.
>I'm still going to support myself to Greece.
I expected as much, though IA Tyl must be
troubling.
>Russia asked for support to Rumania, which makes me think that this could
>be some sort of conspiracy between you and Russia, or else you are selling
>this to Russia as a fake move.
I'm selling it to Russia as provisional orders
that processed before I had a chance to finalize them,
since that's what they were. 8-)
>I was not expecting Italy's move to Tyrolia.
It surprised me as well, though it does give
Italy active options against you, Germany, Russia,
or indirectly, France.
>I will try to find out what he plans for it. Let me know if you hear
>anything.
I'll be asking as well.
>Do you think Germany will bounce Russia from Sweden?
Probably. It's almost standard now, though if
Bre-ECh is part of a Sealion, Den S ECh-Nth isn't out
of the question.
Eric the Turk.
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:42 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I wasn't expecting that. Try to see if you can gather what
> Italy intends to do with it.
We've exchanged a couple of notes. He seems to be saying
that he moved it there as a diplomatic device, to make sure
that Italy wasn't seen as irrelevent and left out of
negotiations. He says he doesn't indend to attack anybody
with that unit. He just wants to be seen as important
in negotations.
> No, I need to look out for myself first. I stand by my statement that
> Rumania is yours. If Turkey keeps you from it for some reason, then I
> will help you get it next year.
Fair enough, I had assumed at the time you would be moving
Alb back to Tri and thus Ser wouldn't have a great deal
better to do but since I've talked with Italy and having
seen your response I guess you could well be trying for
Gre after all in which case, of course, your own interests
are paramount. I'll probably try for Rum this fall but
unless Turkey indends to bounce me there I have trouble
understanding his moves this spring. I may take you up on
that offer to help me into Rum next year, thanks.
> Yes, what are you going to do about it? A strong Germany threatens you
> first, but eventually will become a problem for me too.
It's hard to know what I can do at this stage. Germany has said
that he will allow me to take Swe, and if he and France are
Sealioning then I suppose he'll be doing that. I can support
England in Nwy with F Swe from then on and, if things are
looking stable in the south, possibly build in StP to bolster
England's position. For this fall, I think I have to carry
on with my plans reguardless.
> What would you prefer? Do you have something else you'd like
> to do with Warsaw?
I don't really know at the moment. It seems a waste to just
leave it where it is but the only path for it to move south
is through Gal (or risk bouncing with Ukr should that bounce
in turn in Rum). I do think it's too early to move it toward
Germany, I'd sooner do that in a spring move. Being in Gal
itself isn't too helpful either since to move further south
it would have to go through Rum which means Rum moving too.
I'll let you know what I plan to do with War when I figure
it out! For now I just wanted to tell you what Italy had
been saying and that Eric is at least claiming his move
to Arm was a mistake: a provisional order he didn't have
time to change. I suspect subterfuge however.
Adam............
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:45 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
You're not supporting England to Nth are you? That seems like a bad idea
for Germany to have France swarming around like that.
(Just so you know, it is in Austria's best interests that Germany stays
strong, because if you go down, then I'm next at the hands of Russia and
whoever else.)
Austria
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:47 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England and Italy in 'gutsy':
>Message from England to Italy and Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>I am very pleased by the results as far as our alliance is concerned
I wish that I could say the same thing.
>Turkey has given his full commitment towards attacking Russia, which will
>hopefully make Italy more comfortable in shifting to the West.
Given that Italy has opened with a Tyrolian
Lepanto, I see three possibilities:
1) Raine is allied with Austria, and will carry out
the Lepanto.
2) He's following Leif Bregman's, "Go Fasta, Go Fasta".
http://devel.diplom.org/DipPouch/Zine/F1997M/Bergman/Italy.html
3) He'll order Ion-Tun, Apu-Ven, Tyl-Pie this Fall
for the EIT, and Build F Rom.
Unfortunately, option 3 seems the least likely. What
do you say, Raine?
Eric the Turk.
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:49 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
I understand that "going back and forth" feeling all too well. Been there,
done that. But, it's only the first move and you are in no way facing a bad
position.
You are, though, facing a game of guesses and it will probably take a couple
of days of press to figure out what Rod's up to. And, I'll need a couple of
exchanges with my wayward Italian friend to figure out whether or not I can
support you in Belgium. I hope you understand my caution. In either case,
any sort of Sealion-esque moves on my part are *very* unlikely.
Funny thing about AT is that Keith is still trying to sell me a line about a
juggernaut. The east could be very interesting or it good resolve in a
blink. If you have the chance to press I or R, encourage their cooperation.
I'll do the same and I'll let you know what I hear from Rod.
Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:52 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
You, my friend, are in an excellent position.
Thanks for the note and congratulations with the channel; well done. Brent
seems to think you're a mighty smooth talker. Keep that talk going, but
unless you two are messing with *my* head, I imagine he'll turn to me for
support or at least sympathy. How should I approach him with my press?
Regarding Sealion, I'm up for it as long as I can tame the reckless Italian.
I hope he's aiming for Trieste in '02 using a Venetian build. But...I've
played in one game in which I saw a F'01 Tyr-Mun get dislodged into Burgundy
in S'02 and two Italian units against Marseilles in F'02. The whole thing
only strengthened England, both positionally and diplomatically.
If you were playing Italy's opening, what would you be thinking? I need a
little help here.
I also need to talk the board a bit...but I'm still very interested. Give
me a day and a couple of press exchanges to figure it out. The big plus is
that we both have excellent fall-back positions that net us a collective
five builds in two years. I'd like to work the press a bit so that I can
afford the risk.
Write when you can. Everything else is looking good; Russia is distracted
and Austria is pledging support, at least in spirit. :)
- Steve
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:54 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi,
Let's see, here's what I know:
- France and I are certainly not allied, certainly no more than you and
Turkey.
- No one has asked me to bounce in Sweden. Turkey quoted some dip article
about the evolution of Russian play style, but that's about it.
- I will not be supporting Eng-Nth. France hasn't asked and I wouldn't
agree even if he did.
Here's what I need to know:
- What's Italy up to? All three of us (AGI) suffer when Italy is reckless.
- Who should have Belgium? Both France and England say they want it. If
you were me, what would you do?
That's about it. Write when you can.
You probably can just bounce in Trieste and walk into Greece, but I'll wish
you good luck just the same.
- Steve
From - Mon Sep 17 20:16:55 2001
Broadcast message [from Elladan915 at netzero.net,Dip_Power at hotmail.com as
Turkey] in 'gutsy':
>Movement results for Spring of 1901. (gutsy.001)
>
>Austria: Army Budapest -> Serbia.
>Austria: Army Vienna -> Galicia. (*bounce*)
>Austria: Fleet Trieste -> Albania.
BALKAN GAMBIT, GALICIAN VARIATION
The Balkan Gambit with A Vie-Gal. The opening defends
against Russian entry into Galicia, and when the
Austrian succeeds in taking Galicia, he has two units
on Rumania plus the threat to Warsaw -- which may well
distract a Ukraine army away from Rumania. On the down
side, this opening risks the loss of Trieste. But if
the move to Galicia fails, Austria has shielded two
home centres from attack, and is in a decent position
to limit further mischief from any Italian army that
does get into Trieste. The Gamer's Guide to Diplomacy
notes that, "here the object of distrust is Russia.
>England: Army Liverpool -> Yorkshire.
>England: Fleet Edinburgh -> Norwegian Sea.
>England: Fleet London -> North Sea.
THE YORKSHIRE OPENING
Richard Sharp's name for the opening F Lon-NTH and
F Edi-NWG. In his book, "The Game of Diplomacy,"
Richard Sharp applied the term "Yorkshire Opening" to
the pure Northern Opening (A Lvp-Yor). Although the
offensive role of the English army is limited, this
opening is the only move to guarantee England a build
in 1901, since Yorkshire can guard London against a
sneaky French assault through the Channel, and one
fleet can support the other into Norway if Russia
opens with A Mos-StP. The opening vies in popularity
with the "Churchill Opening."
[EASTERN PUSH]
Manus Hand's name for the anti-Russian continuation
of the Northern opening. In Fall of 1901, the
Norwegian sea fleet is sent to the Barents Sea while
England's other two units take Norway. Especially if
Russia has opened to the south, this opening puts
heavy pressure on St. Petersburg, and can thus be
used to relieve England's fellow "witch," the Turk,
from Russian aggression. If Germany prevents Russia
from gaining Sweden, the attack on Russia's north
can be swift and final, often ending with Russia
conceding St. Petersburg to the English in return
for a promise that only fleets will occupy it. If
Russia opens Mos-StP, England's better choice is a
supported attack on Norway, but the threat of a
Barents invasion in 1902 (with an occupied Norway)
remains a strong argument for a Northern Opening.
[MAGDEBURG]
Named after the German ship wrecked during WWI in
the Baltic, which gave Great Britain and Russia
access to German naval codes for the remainder of
the war, this is Manus Hand's Anglo-Russian
Northern Opening continuation. England's task is
to convince Germany to open to Denmark and then
move to stand Russia out of Sweden. Russia opens
to the Gulf of Bothnia, and, in cahoots with his
English ally, assists in isolating the German for
a strong 1902 attack. Russia avoids Sweden in Fall
of 1901 and instead sails to the Baltic.
Simultaneously, England takes the vacated Denmark.
Norway can go to either England (the "Prince Louis
Madgeburg") or Russia (if Russia opens with a
Northern System; this is the "Benckendorff
Magdeburg"). The Prince Louis (F NWG-Nor in Fall
1901) has the diplomatic advantage of allowing
England to claim shock and continued friendship
with Germany, but the Benckendorff can be used to
force a Spring disband of the German fleet (NWG
HOLD in Fall 1901, then NWG-Nor and NTH-SKA in
Spring 1902 while Russia moves her Norway army to
Finland and send a newly built fleet into the Gulf
of Bothnia), forcing the German to play a unit
short in Fall of 1902.
>France: Army Marseilles -> Spain.
>France: Army Paris -> Picardy.
>France: Fleet Brest -> English Channel.
MANCHE OPENING (a.k.a. ENGLISH ATTACK)
Any French opening that sends the fleet into the
English Channel. English Attack (or Manche)
Openings account in popularity for one-quarter of
all French openings.
It is commonly acknowledged that England is the
trickiest power to eliminate, courtesy of its
island position and inevitable emphasis on
building fleets. Consequently, some players
believe that France must contain its northern
neighbour early in the game, and at all costs
prevent England putting a fleet into the Channel.
F Bre-ENG may therefore be intended to stand off
F Lon-ENG rather than to actually threaten
English home centres. Alternatively, this can be
a bid by France to take Belgium, perhaps coupled
with the move A Par-Bur or A Par-Pic, in which
case the name may be a misnomer. This is not the
most popular opening for the French fleet: it is
unlikely to result in a centre gain for France
(unlike the Atlantic Opening's F Bre-MAO), and
compromises an assault on England by most likely
pinning down the Fleet in Brest, where the French
player would rather be building a second fleet.
[SEALION]
Edi Birsan's strong continuation of the English
Attack opening, as detailed in his Diplomatic
Pouch Article. Supported by the French fleet in
the English Channel, Germany forces his way into
the North Sea in Fall of 1901, while France takes
Belgium and Portugal with his armies. In Spring
of 1902, Germany and France both attempt convoys
onto England, and at least one is guaranteed to
succeed. Named after Hitler's plan to attack
England from out of the Low Countries, this
opening gained rapid popularity in the late
1990's in e-mail play.
>Germany: Army Berlin -> Kiel.
>Germany: Army Munich -> Ruhr.
>Germany: Fleet Kiel -> Denmark.
BLITZKREIG OPENING, DANISH VARIANT
This is the most popular German opening, and
also the most popular opening for any country.
It guarantees two neutrals against any offense,
gives Germany leverage in Sweden and Belgium,
and usually will offend no one. If no one has
moved adjacent to him, he will have great
flexibility in Fall, and all home centres will
be open for builds. This is the basic opening
where France is an ally, Russia is neutral or
suspect, and England is the objective. The
Denmark fleet can deny Sweden to Russia.
Germany also has a lock on Holland (A Kie-Hol,
A Ruh S A Kie-Hol), and can defend Berlin and
still take Holland (so long as England does not
stop him).
[JUTLAND GAMBIT]
Edi Birsan's Fall continuation of the Danish
Blitzkrieg, which delays the choice of first
victim until Spring of 1902. The Fall 1901
orders are: F Den-SKA, A Kie-Den, and A Ruh-Hol.
Note that Germany writes off Belgium entirely,
but is a little less vulnerable to a double
cross in the north.
>Italy: Army Rome -> Apulia.
>Italy: Army Venice -> Tyrolia.
>Italy: Fleet Naples -> Ionian Sea.
LEPANTO, TYROLIAN VARIATION
The order A Ven-Tyr is favored in many quarters,
as it is is positive and powerful. It allows
A Tyr-Mun if there is an Anglo-German alliance
threatening France. This will bolster the French
defense and help keep the West stalemated.
A Ven-Tyr may also stand off a German sneak
attack from Munich. It also gives the possibility
of A Tyr-Boh (and thence to Gal), adding to
Austria's defensive line if this is necessary.
Common wisdom is that on no account should Italy
stab Austria. The short-term gains may be all
right, but the long-term price is not something
Italy would wish to pay. On the other hand, Leif
Bergman advocates just that, stabbing Austria, in
his Diplomatic Pouch article "Go Fasta Go Fasta."
>Russia: Army Moscow -> Ukraine.
>Russia: Army Warsaw -> Galicia. (*bounce*)
>Russia: Fleet Sevastopol -> Black Sea. (*bounce*)
>Russia: Fleet St Petersburg (south coast) -> Gulf of Bothnia.
UKRAINE SYSTEM,THE SOUTHERN DEFENCE
(From Richard Sharp's "The Game of Diplomacy")
The most popular opening, by a fair margin, is
the Southern Defence: A(War)—Gal, A(Mos)—Ukr,
F(Sev)—BLA. Like all variations involving
A(Mos)—Ukr it has the obvious weakness of
surrendering the north: England takes Norway
unopposed and Germany may feel less
apprehensive about the consequences of keeping
you out of Sweden. Though the opening may result
in a good attacking position in the south, it is
primarily defensive in nature: you are
reasonably sure to take Rumania in the autumn,
since you cannot fail to have at least as many
units adjacent to it as Austria and Turkey
combined, but this is a rather modest ambition
for Russia in 1901. More than most, the opening
is ambiguous (a virtue, of course): either the
move to Galicia or that to Black Sea or both may
have been announced in advance to the countries
they appear to be 'attacking’; certainly the move
to BLA is to be regarded as defensive even if it
succeeds, the one to Galicia being more likely to
annoy. For other countries looking on, the best
way to interpret the opening is to see what the
neighbours do: for instance if the move to
Galicia succeeds and Italy moves to Tyrolia it
becomes clear that Austria is being attacked. On
the whole the opening can be classed as neutral
towards Turkey, mildly anti-Austrian and strongly
pro-English; it is fairly safe, but far too
passive for my taste.
>Turkey: Army Constantinople -> Bulgaria.
>Turkey: Army Smyrna -> Armenia.
>Turkey: Fleet Ankara -> Black Sea. (*bounce*)
CRIMEAN CRUSHER (Russian Attack)
Turkey opening to Bul, BLA, and Arm is an aggressive
opening that allows all three pieces to be used
against Russia in the fall. Even if the fleet move
succeeds, though, if Russia is in Rum, Ukr and Sev,
Turkey must still second guess Russia for a second
center if Austrian help is unavailable, and may lose
BLA in the process. This opening poses all sorts of
problems for Russia. If she has trustingly ordered
F Sev-Rum she is in real trouble. Even if she ordered,
F Sev-BLA, she is going to have difficulty maintaining
her position.
From - Mon Sep 17 20:17:07 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> We've exchanged a couple of notes. He seems to be saying
> that he moved it there as a diplomatic device, to make sure
> that Italy wasn't seen as irrelevent and left out of
> negotiations. He says he doesn't indend to attack anybody
> with that unit. He just wants to be seen as important
> in negotations.
I see. Well I will have to be very careful about his unit there.
> > What would you prefer? Do you have something else you'd like
> > to do with Warsaw?
>
> I don't really know at the moment. It seems a waste to just
> leave it where it is but the only path for it to move south
> is through Gal (or risk bouncing with Ukr should that bounce
> in turn in Rum).
Well I don't want you to move it south. What southern territory are you
wanting to take besides Rum? I will help you get Rum that you deserve,
but other than Rum, do you claim any more territory in the South? I think
you should some of the Turkish provinces, but moving to Galacia won't get
you there.
I think there is no reason for you to enter Galacia now. We both decided
to move there this Spring because it was too dangerous for either of us
to have the other there at such an early and sensitive time. Now, the
only reason for either of us to be there would be to attack the other. I
would prefer to attack Turkey, and I hope you feel the same way.
> I'll let you know what I plan to do with War when I figure
> it out! For now I just wanted to tell you what Italy had
> been saying and that Eric is at least claiming his move
> to Arm was a mistake: a provisional order he didn't have
> time to change. I suspect subterfuge however.
Of course he would say something like that. It may even be true. But
now that he is there, I am sure he will try to use it to his advantage.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 17 20:17:09 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Let's see, here's what I know:
>
> - France and I are certainly not allied, certainly no more than you and
> Turkey.
England is paranoid about you and Germany. At least he tells me he is.
I may well be allied with Turkey. It is difficult for me to know since
he never communicates. He claims his move to Armenia was an accident.
> - No one has asked me to bounce in Sweden. Turkey quoted some dip article
> about the evolution of Russian play style, but that's about it.
No one yet, anyway....
> - I will not be supporting Eng-Nth. France hasn't asked and I wouldn't
> agree even if he did.
Russia said you told him he could have Sweden and suggested that you
might support England to Nth.
> Here's what I need to know:
>
> - What's Italy up to? All three of us (AGI) suffer when Italy is reckless.
I don't know. He told me he was moving there only moments before the
moves came through. I am surprised too. I asked him not to move to both
Tyr and Ven. In order to attack me he has to make a guess. The
downside is that it makes i tmore likely that Russia will be in Galacia
after the moves.
> - Who should have Belgium? Both France and England say they want it. If
> you were me, what would you do?
When I play Germany I like to ally with France because it is more
difficult for France to attack Germany. The ultimate decision I would
make would determine on my perceived relationship with the two, though.
> You probably can just bounce in Trieste and walk into Greece, but I'll wish
> you good luck just the same.
I am definitely going to support myself to Greece.
Austria
From - Mon Sep 17 20:17:12 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
Good moves! I would have won the bet that someone is going to move to ECh
:-) Now I know what fairly likely means. It looks like a Sealion, right?
Is it fairly likely a Sealion :-)
> I must admit that I was a little surprised by your move to Tyl, though
> it's definitely a good move. :-) Do you mind sharing your intentions
> for that army?
To be honest I have no idea :-) I am serious! I will listen to everyone.
Raine
Ps. This is not related to Gutsy but could you give me some info of this
Rannestad thing? Your name was mentioned in r.g.d. when they talked about
Rannestad. I try to GM one game at the time and I have my own short 'black
list'.
From - Mon Sep 17 20:17:14 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
> I am just checking if you got my mail. I sent it a while ago.
> I hope everything is ok.
I did get your message, but everything was not ok...a close friend was
killed in the terrorist attack in New York. I am just now getting back to
work and to playing Diplomacy.
Regarding the game, I was very pleased with all the moves I saw except for
Ven-Tyr. Let's talk a bit about that one.
Obviously, I don't want to see you in Munich. I think Tyr-Mun would be bad
for both of us since I will just dislodge you in '02 anyhow. As I see it,
Tyr-Pie in F'01 still makes sense or you could just hold. You could try for
Trieste, but Austria will probably bounce there and order Alb-Gre.
Long term, I want to see you grow but definitely not at my expense. If you
do decide to move towards France, I could help out.
Write when you can. I'm back on-line. I'll write if I learn more.
- Steve
From - Mon Sep 17 20:17:17 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Good to see you concentrating on the south. Have you spoken with Italy
much? His unit in Tyrolia is causing me heartburn, but it's mere presence
guarantees you Galicia in the fall. You might not get Rumania, but you'll
be well positioned for next year.
So...what's Sweden worth to you now? :)
That's a joke, really. You can have it. Write when you can and good luck
with the sharks.
- Steve
From - Mon Sep 17 20:17:19 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> You, my friend, are in an excellent position.
Just the way I like it! ;-)
> Brent seems to think you're a mighty smooth talker.
All I had to do was tell him I'm opening to MAO. I suppose he'd be a
little harder to fool this turn, eh?
> How should I approach him with my press?
Hmmmm. I'm wary of an English build F Lvp, and contrary to popular
opinion, I think our S'02 convoys are far from "guaranteed". As an
alternative to the standard Sealion continuation, we could conspire
to deny England a build: If you "leak" Sealion (wherein I support you
to Nth rather than try for Lon) to him and offer to support Yor-Bel
(for a presumed EG attack on F), perhaps he'd be willing to risk
leaving Lon open (since, after all, the FG plan is Sealion). Then I
could sneak into Lon (offsetting his build from Nwy) while we bounce
him in Bel. The disadvantage is that you don't get into Nth this
season. The advantages are that he doesn't get a build, and you have
the option of using a unit to cover Mun. OTOH, it delays the capture
of Bel, and there are risks: Yor-Lon, Nth-Bel would be a Very Bad
Thing. Also, it's rather devious, whereas Sealion is fairly straight-
forward.
I haven't thought that all the way through, so maybe it's not a very
good idea. Let me know what you think of it.
> If you were playing Italy's opening, what would you be thinking?
> I need a little help here.
Unfortunately, I have little experience as Italy. He just sent me
a message saying that he has not yet formulated plans for A Tyl.
Whether that can be believed or not, I don't know.
> Austria is pledging support, at least in spirit. :)
It's easy to pledge support "in spirit" when it doesn't require you to
commit any actual units. ;-)
Rod
From - Mon Sep 17 20:17:20 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> It looks like a Sealion, right?
Yes, it certainly looks like a Sealion. And it might actually *be*
one as well! ;-) Sealion is one of the options that Germany and I
have discussed. Whether we try that or something else, I do not yet
know.
> Ps. This is not related to Gutsy but could you give me some info of this
> Rannestad thing? Your name was mentioned in r.g.d. when they talked about
> Rannestad. I try to GM one game at the time and I have my own short 'black
> list'.
http://devel.diplom.org/DipPouch/Zine/S1999R/Miller/rannestad.html
I coordinate the "RC" blacklist. Basically, you just state in the
game listing that it's an "RC" game and explain that anyone who
abandons without giving you a reasonable explanation will be barred
from future RC games. If you send an email to my home address
(rodspade at acm.org) or to the RC mailing list, I'll send you the
latest version of the blacklist.
Rod
From - Mon Sep 17 20:32:05 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
First, old business. Yep, I meant "triangle". Here's a little story:
I had a computer science professor 15 or so years ago from Hungary (I'm
American). He lectured for an hour an a half on task gridlock and other OS
pitfalls and then paused...looked at his notes, scratched his head, and
said: "Forgive me please, wherever I say 'reset', I meant to say
'resource'. Please adjust your thoughts."
Sorry about the confusion. :)
Now for new business.
That's a fine set of moves there; I understand the trickiness of playing
Turkey. Austria and Italy don't make natural allies for Turkey, but your
best partner just unifies the rest of the board against you. Funny thing
here is that Keith is still trying to sell me on "juggernaut fear". That's
how strong it can be. If you and Adam have worked out an RT that is this
well camouflaged, more power to you. Go for it and don't look back.
As for me, my biggest concerns are whom to work with in the west and that
pesky unit in Tyrolia. If you have any insight into our Finnish-Italian
friend, I certainly would appreciate it. I'm a bit flummoxed.
Regarding Brent v. Rod, I tend to agree. Rod's top notch while Brent is
just starting. Problem is...so far, Rod has been so much more direct. If
you have the chance to write your fellow "witch", tell him to be more
specific. So far, we're just swapping fluff.
Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Mon Sep 17 20:17:29 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
[you could support Nth with Nwg and miss out on Nwy.]
Actually, I wouldn't have to miss out on Norway. The last time I was
faced with this situation I moved Yor - Nwy with Nwg S Nth. The Sealion
bounced, and I was able to pick up my build in London. The only problem was
that Russia was not very considerate of the fact that this was the only way
I could get a build and hold the North Sea. I don't want to repeat that
outcome, so I'd want your permission before trying a move set like that.
[Hopefully. I'll have to build a unit in StP if I intend to
take any provocative action in the north, one unit just isn't
enough, but I don't want to see England eliminated by 1904
for sure.]
I'll take any help you can give, even if it is only one unit. That could
go a long ways towards harassing Germany and keeping me alive until you can
get the South settled and bring in reinforcements.
[Good luck, consider either supporting France/Germany into Bel
or else bouncing France in Bel if all negotations fail.]
Certainly a possibility, but its pretty hard to break up an opening like
the Sealion with this kind of tactic. I think a more likely way to break
them up would be to tell France that I'm going to defend against him alone
and let Germany take centers if I have to. That sort of tactic has a better
chance of succeeding in my mind.
As for your own predicament, keep working those diplomatic channels.
Austria does not seem to be too closely tied to Turkey, so you may be able
to sway him to your side. Italy is also in a geat position to help you out
if you can convince him to do so.
Brent
From - Mon Sep 17 20:17:31 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
[Yes, except that Italy's presence in Tyl makes things a little more
interesting. ;-) Maybe we can yet arrange for Germany to get one
build rather than two.]
Indeed. The question is, how do we get the idea to him? If you propose
it, it looks seriously out of place with the Sealion attack. If I propose
it, it looks a bit more believable, but still like I'm giving up hope on
Germany, who should be my best chance right now. Maybe pass it along
through a third party?
[Of course. :-) You have the difficult acting part. I just have to
play along with FG, which is probably what everyone has assumed by now
anyway.]
No problem, I'm pretty used to acting parts like this. And this isn't a
tough one either, who would ever assume that I invited you into the Channel?
[I concur. We should be in excellent position for 1902, and the
situation in the east appears ideal for us.]
RI vs. AT at first reckoning, but I'm not sure its that simple. Austria
claims to not be very closely tied to Turkey, and I'm surprised that Eric
would make such an unambiguous move on the opening. My guess is that
there's more going on than meets the eye (kind of like the West!)
Brent
From - Mon Sep 17 20:17:33 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy and Turkey in 'gutsy':
It is true that Italy's moves could've been a bit less ambiguous, but I
also think they present an opportunity. I can pretty much guarantee you
that France is not looking South right now. What builds he does get will
almost assuredly be aimed to the North, unless Italy attacks now. I'd
propose a slightly different line. ION - Tun, Apu - Ven, Tyl H (or makes
some bounce or something). France should be distracted enough in the North
that his builds will go there. In the Spring, Italy moves Tyl - Pie, Tun -
WES and Nap - TYS with devastating effect. Seems to me to be more useful
than the move to Piedmont, though that would help take some pressure off me.
The real question will be which side Germany decides to join. Right now I'm
optimistic that he'll be on mine.
Is there any sort of agreement with Austria as to what his part will be?
It would be nice to have him aiming at Russia, but at the same time we don't
want him to make too much gains (just like Germany).
Brent
From - Mon Sep 17 20:17:35 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
[You are, though, facing a game of guesses and it will probably take a
couple
of days of press to figure out what Rod's up to.]
Yah, and I don't really have any way of knowing wether I've figured that
out or not. It seems the best thing to do is to keep pushing the standard
Sealion, as that at least lets us know what his plans are.
As for Italy, I'm afraid I don't have any more information than you on his
intentions. Taking Munich would seem pretty meaningless though, as he
couldn't hold it through next year. Hopefully you can convince him of that
so that Ruhr can still offer its support. Otheriwse I could be facing no
builds and a grim situation!
One last thing, I assume the plan is still to let Russia into Sweden?
Right now there doesn't seem much harm in it, he's got plenty to worry about
in the South, and we can always take it back later on if we are so inclined.
Let me know if any news comes your way about Rod's intentions, and I'll
keep my ear to the ground as well.
Brent
From - Tue Sep 18 20:29:54 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
> Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> That's a fine set of moves there; I understand the trickiness of playing
> Turkey. Austria and Italy don't make natural allies for Turkey, but your
> best partner just unifies the rest of the board against you. Funny thing
> here is that Keith is still trying to sell me on "juggernaut fear".
That's
> how strong it can be. If you and Adam have worked out an RT that is this
> well camouflaged, more power to you. Go for it and don't look back.
Actually, I had provisional orders in and the turn processed before I
could finalize them. *Oops!* Adam was not happy.
> As for me, my biggest concerns are whom to work with in the west and
> that pesky unit in Tyrolia. If you have any insight into our
Finnish-Italian
> friend, I certainly would appreciate it. I'm a bit flummoxed.
Yeah, I thought we had an understanding that he would attack France,
and I would build Armies, but it looks as though he's coming with the
Lepanto. The advantage of the move to Tyl is that it can be used against
Austria or Germany right away, or quickly shift against France or Russia.
I have no idea what he has planned, though. Rest assured I'll ask, though.
> Regarding Brent v. Rod, I tend to agree. Rod's top notch while Brent is
> just starting. Problem is...so far, Rod has been so much more direct. If
> you have the chance to write your fellow "witch", tell him to be more
> specific. So far, we're just swapping fluff.
Ok, he seems to think you're on his side, I'll encourage him to be more
direct. 8-)
Eric.
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:15 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England and Italy in 'gutsy':
> Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy and Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> I'd propose a slightly different line. ION - Tun, Apu - Ven, Tyl H (or
> bounce or something).
This works for me, though Tyl-Tri, or Tyl-Vie probably makes more
sense.
> Is there any sort of agreement with Austria as to what his part will be?
> It would be nice to have him aiming at Russia, but at the same time we
> don't want him to make too much gains (just like Germany).
I have no agreements with Austria. He says he's supporting himself into
Gre.
Eric the Turk.
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:16 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
Brent,
> The real question will be which side Germany decides to join. Right now
> I'm optimistic that he'll be on mine.
You should probably approach him with a concrete offer, say, Yor-Lon,
Nth S Ruh-Bel to keep France at one build. He tells me he'd like to ally
with you, but you haven't been specific enough to make him feel comfortable.
> Is there any sort of agreement with Austria as to what his part will be?
> It would be nice to have him aiming at Russia, but at the same time we
don't
> want him to make too much gains (just like Germany).
I'm really concerned that I'll see Ser S Alb-Gre, Ion C Apu-Tun,
followed by B F Nap, Ion-EMed, Gre-Aeg, Nap-Ion.
Eric the Turk.
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:21 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Okay Brent, let's talk some specifics.
Pretend for a second that Tyrolia is just sight-seeing and that Munich is
safe.
What I need to know is why I should work with you instead of France. Rod
and I had a similar conversation a while ago and I must say he's been pretty
convincing. In your favor though is board sentiment; more than one of our
esteemed colleagues prefers EG to FG. (Evidently, we're the popular
underdogs.)
So...what would you do if you controlled all our units and had both our
interests at heart? I'm all ears; wide open. Tell me what you'd like to
see happen.
Like I said in an earlier press, my goal is to resolve the triangle as
quickly as possible. Write when you can.
- Steve
P.S. BTW, let's also pretend that London is safe, just for argument's sake.
:)
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:22 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
> Actually, I had provisional orders in and the turn processed before
> I could finalize them. *Oops!* Adam was not happy.
LOL. I guess the power-circle is fully charged by now. Does the Vizier
have a mirror of his own? :)
I don't know Adam very well, but he strikes me as a reasonable fellow. At
the least, he and I have resolved the early-game GR conflicts. If a
juggernaut develops, I wouldn't mind a bit. I hope to have this triangle
(did I say that right? :) ) thing worked out by then.
If you're up for it, can you spare me a tip on Greece? I know F'01 is just
getting started, but I've heard some things I can't quite believe.
Write when you can.
- Steve
P.S. I'll write more too when I have the chance, but it's getting late and
I'm headed to bed.
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:24 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Okay Brent, let's talk some specifics.
Pretend for a second that Tyrolia is just sight-seeing and that Munich is
safe.
What I need to know is why I should work with you instead of France. Rod
and I had a similar conversation a while ago and I must say he's been pretty
convincing. In your favor though is board sentiment; more than one of our
esteemed colleagues prefers EG to FG. (Evidently, we're the popular
underdogs.)
So...what would you do if you controlled all our units and had both our
interests at heart? I'm all ears; wide open. Tell me what you'd like to
see happen.
Like I said in an earlier press, my goal is to resolve the triangle as
quickly as possible. Write when you can.
- Steve
P.S. BTW, let's also pretend that London is safe, just for argument's sake.
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:28 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
I am so happy to hear from you. You have been the most silent person in
gutsy. I want to talk more often with you.
> I did get your message, but everything was not ok...a close friend was
> killed in the terrorist attack in New York. I am just now getting back to
> work and to playing Diplomacy.
I'm sorry. That was a terrible thing that happend.
> Regarding the game, I was very pleased with all the moves I saw except for
> Ven-Tyr. Let's talk a bit about that one.
I wrote to someone and said that I hope Germany starts to write to me
after that move. It seemed to work. To be honest I had nothing else to do
with it. I have no concrete plan where to go. I did not want to anger
France by moving to Pie. Holding would have been a waste of time. So
moving to Tyr gave me a chance to hear your thoughts. That was how I
thought about it. Now that you told me that you have had hard times I
understand that you have had something to do.
> Obviously, I don't want to see you in Munich. I think Tyr-Mun would be bad
> for both of us since I will just dislodge you in '02 anyhow. As I see it,
> Tyr-Pie in F'01 still makes sense or you could just hold. You could try for
> Trieste, but Austria will probably bounce there and order Alb-Gre.
Like I said, I really don't know what I am going to do wiht Tyr but I am
ready to listen to you if you have more sophisticated ideas.
> Long term, I want to see you grow but definitely not at my expense. If you
> do decide to move towards France, I could help out.
One possibility would be that I would move to Mun in spring so that you
could dislodge me in fall. That would be something. I understand that the
current situation in west gives you the opportunity to chose your
ally. Shall it be England or France? I would like to see GE. To my eyes it
looks like FG, though. Would you like to comment this?
Raine
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:25 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I forgot to thank you Adam. Thanks for moving the way you said you'll
move. Do you remember when I talked about 'not being able to read between
the lines like natives but I can see who moves like he says'? That is what
I mean. You moved like you said. I like that. I hope we can continue this
way. I can't recall if I told you what I am going to do but my moves are
quite common ones.
> That's good, I'm definately on your side over these
> two cowboys here too. I think we agree that in an ideal
> world we'd want to get rid of Turkey first and then
> turn of Austria - possibly just before Turkey is actually
> dead.
I like that plan and I hope it can be done that way. If west is resolving
quick with Sealion it means that we need to be fast in the east too. The
fastest way is to knock Turkey out together with RAI.
> I don't like to pass on press but he said that he thought
> you might move against Turkey but he had some doubts about
> it and that he thought maybe you'd attack him instead. He
> also said he'd done "Everything Possible" to convince you
> not to attack him. I think he was looking for some assurance
> before he sent in his orders, I gave it to him but he may
> now think he was right be be concerned.
I certainly do not like people who forward messages. The info can be send
on otherwise like you did. Austria has nothing to be worried about. I am
not moving against him. I wanted Germany to recognize that I exist and I
managed to do that he sent a note to me after a veeery long silence :-)
Has Austria given you a response according to Rumanian situation?
Raine
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:26 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Thanks for moving to Alb. I really appreciate that. Now you are on your
way to get those two builds that you'll need. I hope I cleared your fears
of foolish Italian who might attack Austria.
Tyrolian situation:
-I am sorry that I am on Austrian soil but I remember that you gave me
your permission.
-You said earlier that you don't mind if I move there as long as I don't
follow with Rom-Ven.
-I didn't have anything special in mind when I ordered there. Well I
wanted Steve (Germany) to reckonize that I do exist. He has been the most
silent person to me.
-I was and I still am worried about juggernaut. I believe that the long
gray broadcast where was comments about opening moves was from Eric. Look
at it closely, there is clearly told about T attacking R. Also there was
claims that I should attack A. We need to remember that only players can
send gray broadcasts. I am quite sure that Black Sea bounce was agreed. So
I do believe that there is a high possiblity of RT.
-I am ready to listen to you if you have any ideas how to move with Tyr.
> Turkey has not been quick to respond to me, for some reason. Neither he
> nor Russia have given any indication of their relationship or what they
> expected the other to do. Turkey's move to Armenia may be an indication
> that Turkey wants to attack Russia. It is also quite possibly a ploy to
> get us to let our guards down. Don't tell anyone, but I'm leaning
> towards the latter until I'm convinced otherwise. I will be negotiating
> with Turkey and Russia as if they are hostile to each other.
Yes, we need to prepare for RT that is for sure. Turkish army in Smyrna
didn't have anything important to do, so it can be used in theatre act
like faking a RT war.
> Tyrolia is okay, but what do you plan to do with it? It is Austrian
> territory, you know.
I am open to your suggestions. If you say that Russia is hostile to you
then I might consider moving to Boh. If you think Russia is friendly (I
guess he should be if there ain't RT) then I could return to Italian soil
or just hold.
Do you think it is possible for AIR to arrange an attack against Turkey?
In west it looks like a Sealion. It means west will resolve quick. We
cannot hold too long in east. I am ready to go after Turkey with you and
if there is no theatre acts in Armenia then Russia should be willing to
join us against Turkey. What do you think about this?
Italy
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:29 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Thanks for you notes. I have one disagreement with you. To my eyes Turkey
has not given a full commitment to EIT. RT is still a possibility. I
believe it was Eric who wrote that long gray broadcast where was analysis
of opening moves. Why do I believe it was Eric? 1st it underlined that
Turkey is attacking Russia. There was not mentioned that Black Sea bounce
could have been agreed beforehand (I think it was) and that Smy-Arm is the
best disguise RT can make up. Also there was strongly stated that Italy
should attack Austria. That really sounds like a good diplomacy from
Turkey who wants to hide RT and wants Italy to stab Austria.
For a second I thought it might be from you that grey broadcast (only
players can send grey broadcasts) but then I thought 'no E does not want
to push for RT'. It leaves Eric. Do you agree? If you don't could you give
me some reasons why?
Raine
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:31 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
> Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> I don't know Adam very well, but he strikes me as a reasonable
> fellow. At the least, he and I have resolved the early-game GR
> conflicts. If a juggernaut develops, I wouldn't mind a bit.
Does this mean you're not going to bounce him out of Sweden?
> If you're up for it, can you spare me a tip on Greece? I know F'01
> is just getting started, but I've heard some things I can't quite believe.
Hmmm, what have you heard? Keith claims he's going to support
Alb - Gre, and I haven't heard from Raine since the moves processed.
Keith also claims he was surprised by Ven-Tyl, but he's experienced
enough to know that that move is not necessarily anti-Austrian, so he
could take Gre, and lobby for a Lepanto next year.
Eric the Target, err Turk. ;^}
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:41 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
Actually, I'd been getting a bit worried about the lack of specfics
myself, but I'd stayed away from them because you had. I'm more than happy
to break them out!
This turn seems relatively easy. Under the assumptions that you stated
(which I agree are true at the moment), I think our best moves would be:
A Yor - NTH - Bel
F Nth C A Yor - Bel
F Nwg - Nwy
A Ruh S A Yor - Bel
A Kie - Hol
F Den H
We each pick up two centers. As I said earlier, I'm in favor of letting
Russia pick up Sweden, to try to help balance the pressure he's feeling in
the South, provided he understands that a Northern build is not needed or
wanted.
Since thats such an easy call, I'll try to extend out some more
predictions to give you a better idea of what I had in mind. For the
builds, I would probably be building F Lon and F Lvp. With my army already
on the mainland, my goal becomes control of the Atlantic. Your builds would
most likely include A Mun and another unit based on the situation in the
East (I'd prefer not to have fleets, but its a possibility). In the Fall we
really begin our push with something like Lvp - IRI, Nth S Lon - ENG, Ruh -
Bur with support from Belgium and/or Munich depending on where the French
end up. Once I've established a foothold along the Western coast, I would
most likely be willing to transfer Belgium to you, leaving a split of
centers along the lines of Bre, Por, Spa for me and Par,Mar,Bel for you. Of
course that depends on whether or not Italy gets involved, but right now he
seems to be headed elsewhere.
Obviously, with the exception of the moves for this turn, a lot of this is
speculative, but hopefully it gives you an idea of my goals and my vision
for achieving them. I may not be as smooth and convincing as Rod, but at
least you know where you stand with me! Let me know your thoughts.
Brent
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:43 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
You're correct, it is possible that the move to Armenia was part of an
arranged RT. But I would tend to doubt it. One, Russia would be taking an
awful lot of risk, and I can't see a new player surrounded by experienced
ones being willing to put himself in that position. Two, if RT was the real
goal, we'll probably be able to see it in the Fall moves. By making such a
bold attack in the Spring, Eric either has to continue it, or risk the
entire board noticing right away the switch. And three, I'm going with an
Occam's razor principle here. From everything that Turkey has told us and
others, his most likely motivation is attacking Russia. While its not a
guarantee, I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary, so I'm prone to
assuming that is the case.
Thats another good thing about the move set I proposed though, it doesn't
force you to commit to an attack on France until Spring 02. If Eric makes a
sudden about face, or makes builds that are not what we agreed on, you
always have the chance to turn around and head East. But if he does proceed
as planned, you're still in position to make a solid attack with some
immediate gains in France.
Oh, and as for the gray broadcast on the openings, I wouldn't read too
much into its content. I believe all the text is taken directly from the
Interactive Openings Library, and thus any biases are those of the author's
there. Why someone would choose to send it out is another story, but it can
only be speculation at this point and I don't have any really good ideas.
Perhaps someone wanted to point out to me that Germany and France looked to
be in a Sealion? Or warn Austria about the "Go Fasta"? Since the text is
straight out of the books, and not all that insightful for experienced
players, I would wager a guess that the target was the inexperienced
players, myself, Russia, and possibly you.
Brent
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:44 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Thanks for moving to Alb. I really appreciate that. Now you are on your
> way to get those two builds that you'll need. I hope I cleared your fears
> of foolish Italian who might attack Austria.
Yes, I will definitely be supporting myself to Greece.
> Tyrolian situation:
> -I am sorry that I am on Austrian soil but I remember that you gave me
> your permission.
> -You said earlier that you don't mind if I move there as long as I don't
> follow with Rom-Ven.
I suppose you are right. It has been so long that I had forgotten.
> -I didn't have anything special in mind when I ordered there. Well I
> wanted Steve (Germany) to reckonize that I do exist. He has been the most
> silent person to me.
I'll bet he is talking to you now. I am sure you will be wanting to make
sure that France does not get too powerful. It is a good idea to be
talking to Germany.
> -I was and I still am worried about juggernaut. I believe that the long
> gray broadcast where was comments about opening moves was from Eric. Look
> at it closely, there is clearly told about T attacking R. Also there was
> claims that I should attack A. We need to remember that only players can
> send gray broadcasts. I am quite sure that Black Sea bounce was agreed. So
> I do believe that there is a high possiblity of RT.
I agree.
> -I am ready to listen to you if you have any ideas how to move with Tyr.
I would like to see you move it somewhere, either Piedmont, Munich,
Bohemia or back to Venice. I don't mind your being in Austria so much,
but Tyrolia does boader on two of my supply centers.
> I am open to your suggestions. If you say that Russia is hostile to you
> then I might consider moving to Boh. If you think Russia is friendly (I
> guess he should be if there ain't RT) then I could return to Italian soil
> or just hold.
I think Russia is probably hostile, and that he is collaborating with
Turkey, but I can't be sure.
> Do you think it is possible for AIR to arrange an attack against Turkey?
> In west it looks like a Sealion. It means west will resolve quick. We
> cannot hold too long in east. I am ready to go after Turkey with you and
> if there is no theatre acts in Armenia then Russia should be willing to
> join us against Turkey. What do you think about this?
I think it is possible, but I don't think we should share too much
information with Russia about your tactics. Or, we could purposely
mislead him. The tricky part is to get your fleet into Aeg or Eas in the
Spring.
I will be away until Wednesday evening.
Austria
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:48 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> I see. Well I will have to be very careful about his unit there.
He's still insisting that the move to Tyr was more about
provoking people into noticing him than attacking anyone.
Reckons it made Germany write to him when he's been very
quiet indeed in the past.
> Well I don't want you to move it south. What southern territory are you
> wanting to take besides Rum? I will help you get Rum that you deserve,
> but other than Rum, do you claim any more territory in the South? I think
> you should some of the Turkish provinces, but moving to Galacia won't get
> you there.
I think this is the point I was trying (Badly) to put over.
I want it to be in Turkey and of all the routes there Gal
is the fastest BUT it's still miles slower than builds in
Sev or even Mos. I wouldn't mind sending it against Germany,
but only after I'm sure what's happening in the south and
only if it turns out to be needed to help England and
at any rate not until I've got Swe. I may end up just
getting it to hold. At any rate, I agree not to move to
Gal.
> Of course he would say something like that. It may even be true. But
> now that he is there, I am sure he will try to use it to his advantage.
And I, in turn, can use it to my advantage. Italy definately
seems to be campaigning for the three of us to move on Turkey
and I'm even more inclined to agree now than I was before the
moves when Turkey was my prefered target. Maybe we should write
some press to AIR and discuss it between all three of us?
Adam........
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:49 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I forgot to thank you Adam. Thanks for moving the way you said you'll
> move.
I do try to keep lies to an absolute minimum because I'm
not very good at them basically.
> I like that plan and I hope it can be done that way. If west is resolving
> quick with Sealion it means that we need to be fast in the east too. The
> fastest way is to knock Turkey out together with RAI.
Agreed, I think it may be time to write some press to AIR
rather than trying to organise a three way attack with
two way comunication.
> I certainly do not like people who forward messages. The info can be send
> on otherwise like you did. Austria has nothing to be worried about. I am
> not moving against him. I wanted Germany to recognize that I exist and I
> managed to do that he sent a note to me after a veeery long silence :-)
>
> Has Austria given you a response according to Rumanian situation?
He doesn't want to support me into Rumania this fall, I suspect
because he's still thinking about going after Gre, especially if
it turns out he can trust A Tyr. He says that he'll help me into
Rum next year if I fail this year though. I guess whether that
actually happens will depend on his alignment to Turkey.
Adam........
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:51 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> Keith has been terse in his press - his experience is mostly nopress,
> and I think he's just not that talkative. I did have some friendly
> banter with Eric, so if he hasn't said much with you then that's
> probably a bad sign.
That and his moving his army to Arm I guess. We did exchange about
two or three notes each, maybe the time zones were making things
more akward. We'll have to see how it pans out I guess.
> I was not expecting the move to Tyr, so I don't know who his target
> is. If he goes for Tri then Austria must sacrifice some offensive
> potential in order to bounce him. An Italian move to Gre would help
> you as well, though I think he'll prefer the guaranteed build from
> Tun.
It's begining to look like Raine's main motivation was just to
make sure he was relevent in all discussions, keep everyone
interested in his moves. It can be akward as Italy to be
fully involved. This means, of course, that he wasn't sure
where the final destination was, probably still isn't. It's
a loose cannon and could go off pointing anywhere from
what I can make out. Or, most likely, won't go off at all.
> I'm sure England will try to break FG, but hopefully I can keep
> Germany on board. Besides, if he feels threatened by the Italian
> army in Tyr, he probably won't try for both Hol and Bel.
That army does do the trick of keeping everyone interested in
Italy doesn't it. For what it's worth, Germany hasn't said
anything to me about switching sides, but then he'd have no real
reason too I suppose.
Adam.........
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:52 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Good to see you concentrating on the south.
Not much else I could do really, I'm still not sure who's side
Austria and Turkey are on. I fear they're on each other's side
but I hope they're both on mine.
> Have you spoken with Italy much? His unit in Tyrolia is causing
> me heartburn, but it's mere presence guarantees you Galicia in the
> fall. You might not get Rumania, but you'll be well positioned
> for next year.
I have been speaking to Raine quite a lot about his A Tyr. It
appears he moved there in order to make sure he was included in
negotiations and seemed pleased that it provoked a message
from you, something he seems to think has been rare up until now.
One army on it's own is not an invading force as such of
course and his other two units definately went the other way.
I wouldn't swear to it but I suspect it was mostly defensive
and that the army will probably hold next year. We will have
to wait and see for sure I guess.
> So...what's Sweden worth to you now? :)
Heh. Well, I guess I could still move to Pru if I didn't get it,
then build in War and send everything at you if I manage to
get Rum. I'm not entirely sure I'd want to pay that price, though
I'm pretty sure England would like it.
> That's a joke, really. You can have it.
Ah good, a free gift! The trouble with all these sharks in the
south is I have almost no idea where I stand with 'em. I'm pretty
sure Eric is against me, but I can't see him doing that unless
he has Keith on his side too but Keith seems fairly pro-tsarist
so heaven knows. Maybe A Arm really was a mistake? Seems unlikely
mind.
Adam........
From - Tue Sep 18 21:12:54 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
> Actually, I wouldn't have to miss out on Norway. The last time I was
> faced with this situation I moved Yor - Nwy with Nwg S Nth. The Sealion
> bounced, and I was able to pick up my build in London. The only problem was
> that Russia was not very considerate of the fact that this was the only way
> I could get a build and hold the North Sea. I don't want to repeat that
> outcome, so I'd want your permission before trying a move set like that.
Well, an army in Nwy isn't my ideal situation but I guess it's
better than a french fleet in Nth at this stage. Using the
army for something other than blocking London assumes that
France isn't going to just try a sneeky hop into there
of course.
> I'll take any help you can give, even if it is only one unit. That could
> go a long ways towards harassing Germany and keeping me alive until you can
> get the South settled and bring in reinforcements.
I would have to insist on at least the /right/ to build
in StP if you convoy an army to Nwy, but I couldn't promise
I'll be able to - I'm not even guarenteed a build at the
moment and, indeed, think I'll be lucky to get Rum.
> Certainly a possibility, but its pretty hard to break up an opening like
> the Sealion with this kind of tactic. I think a more likely way to break
> them up would be to tell France that I'm going to defend against him alone
> and let Germany take centers if I have to. That sort of tactic has a better
> chance of succeeding in my mind.
Of course you'll have a better read on the situation than I do,
and no doubt we have different styles anyway. You must do what
you think is best, I was just offering alternatives.
> As for your own predicament, keep working those diplomatic channels.
> Austria does not seem to be too closely tied to Turkey, so you may be able
> to sway him to your side. Italy is also in a geat position to help you out
> if you can convince him to do so.
This is what I'm trying. I'm glad at least someone has information
on Keith's alignment with Turkey. It doesn't feel that strong to
me but if I were Turkey I couldn't imagine doing A Arm without
some commitment from Austria to help out in Germany. We'll have
to wait and see I guess.
Adam.........
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:00 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> The question is, how do we get the idea to him?
Hmmmm, good question. Maybe just the *threat* of A Tyl will cause
Germany to pull back an army. I asked him whether A Tyl is a problem
for him, and he responded that he doesn't know yet. Maybe I can
foment some paranoia. ;-)
> I'm surprised that Eric
> would make such an unambiguous move on the opening.
He told me that he just entered "something" a long time ago and forgot
to change it. That's a little hard to believe, but you never know.
> My guess is that there's more going on than meets the eye
I'm always wary of a faux R/T skirmish suckering Italy into stabbing
Austria, then BOOM - Juggernaut.
Rod
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:02 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> That and his moving his army to Arm I guess.
Yeah, that's pretty much a dead give-away! ;-) I asked Eric about
his move, and his excuse is that he just entered "something" a long
time ago and forgot to change it. Personally, I find that hard to
believe.
> This means, of course, that he wasn't sure
> where the final destination was, probably still isn't.
That's what Raine told me as well. We'll see....
Rod
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:03 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria, Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
Gentlemen,
It seems that Keith is concerned about Raine's army in
Tyr but other than this small difference we are all
three talking of liberating the Turkish people from the
dastardly rule of that tyrant Eric. It seems to me that
this could be the best plan of action for all of us so
I suggest we begin a three way discourse with the aim
of constructing a battle plan which will leave the
Turkish country destroyed and the Tyrant without home
nor assylum.
I suggest that a basic Lepanto from the two of you combined
with a jump into the Black Sea from my end. I'll try and
grab Rum and Ank, Austria takes Ser and Bul and Italy
ends up with Smy and Gre. Con will go to whichever of you
argues best for it and there's no reason I can think of
why Greece shouldn't be occupied by Austria until such
a time as Italy is ready to claim it.
This won't require much commitment from me, so if we
agree to and commence an AIR plan I will make most of
my builds in the North and hopefully be able to prop
England up long enough to stop the Western Triangle
being resolved before we're ready to take them on.
With any luck I can keep England alive and make Germany
small. After Turkey is gone Italy can head for France
and Austria can head into the South of Germany.
What do you both say? Should we organize exact moves,
how much of a problem is A Tyr?
Adam...........
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:04 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
Just to reassure you, I don't think the convoy to Norway is going to
happen. If it is, I'll definitely get final approval from you, but
otherwise you can assume that the army has other duties and that I'll be
taking Norway with a fleet. I understand that the army in Norway would
be a cause for concern for you, and I think you've got enough to worry
about already!
Brent
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:05 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy and Russia in
'gutsy':
I agree with what Russia said, including the division of centers, and I'm
all for it. I'll coordinate moves with each of you separately. If we
all work together we should be able to get Turkey's centers very quickly.
Austria
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:06 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Thank you for not moving to Gal. I can provide any assistance you will
need, but it will probably become a non-issue by the Fall, when Turkey
will certainly have lost Bulgaria.
I hope you can find something to do with Warsaw.
Austria
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:07 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Thanks for the letter. I don't really have too much to say, but you can bet
Italy and I will be talking.
Here are a couple of my comments:
> Not much else I could do really, I'm still not sure who's side
> Austria and Turkey are on. I fear they're on each other's side
> but I hope they're both on mine.
I share your fear. I don't think they are actively working together, but
neither one is in any position to attack the other right off.
> I wouldn't swear to it but I suspect it was mostly defensive
> and that the army will probably hold next year.
That is very good to hear. I would appreciate it if you pass on any other
info that crosses your desk. I'll do the same.
> Maybe A Arm really was a mistake? Seems unlikely
> mind.
Actually, I think it might have been a mistake. Kind of hard to recover
from, but if you and Eric can work things out, I'd say go for the
juggernaut. If you can't, the best thing I see is GIR cooperation. I can't
do much militarily, but I sure can keep England and France occupied while
you and Raine pick up the centers.
Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:09 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
Good to hear back from you; thanks for the quick response.
> I wrote to someone and said that I hope Germany starts to write to
> me after that move. It seemed to work. To be honest I had nothing
> else to do with it. I have no concrete plan where to go.
Okay, that's fair. I have to give you credit. Of all the moves on the
board, that was the most pro-active, not overly aggressive, but sure to get
the other players' attention. I suspect that you've received more press
from everyone as a result, not just me.
> Like I said, I really don't know what I am going to do wiht Tyr but I
> am ready to listen to you if you have more sophisticated ideas.
The problem I've always faced playing Italy is where does the fifth center
come from? Every other country can get two builds without angering its
neighbors too much. I'm sure you know that.
> One possibility would be that I would move to Mun in spring so that
> you could dislodge me in fall. That would be something.
I've seen that ploy work very well in another game. Obviously, I'm
reluctant to try it without some reassurances, but I'm fairly open minded.
I have a couple of questions, though:
- What would the next couple of seasons look like?
- How would that affect my relationship with France and England?
> I understand that the current situation in west gives you the opportunity
> to chose your ally. Shall it be England or France? I would like to see GE.
> To my eyes it looks like FG, though. Would you like to comment this?
Honestly, I have not yet decided. It's good to have options, though.
Both Rod and Brent have made reasonable proposals and both seem to be fairly
trustworthy. The funny thing is that you are not the first person to
suggest EG. When you write England next, please suggest a way the three of
us can cooperate.
Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:11 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
Have you heard from Raine since the moves came
through?
Eric the Turk.
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:10 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
Brent,
Have you heard from Raine since the moves came
through?
Eric the Turk.
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:12 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
Have you heard from Raine since the moves came
through?
Eric the Turk.
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:13 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Steve,
Have you heard from Raine since the moves came
through?
Eric the Turk.
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:14 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
Adam,
Have you heard from Raine since the moves came
through? I haven't, which makes me suspect that
I'm facing a Lepanto, though he could just be busy.
Given A Tyl, I don't see how Keith can afford to
order Vie-Gal again, so War-Gal, Ukr-Rum would
position us well to take out Austria quickly.
Please let me know what you've been hearing.
Thanks,
Eric the Turk.
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:15 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
I imagine you've been busy, but I hope you'll
find time to respond to Brent and I soon. Keith
doesn't seem too concerned about your Army in
Tyrolia, so I'd say you have a shot at two builds,
and that would go a long way toward calming my fears
of a Lepanto, and free me up to press into Russia.
Eric the Turk.
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:16 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
> Have you heard from Raine since the moves came through?
Yes. He claimed to have no specific plans for A Tyl.
Rod
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:18 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Have you heard from Raine since the moves came
> through?
Who?
Austria
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:19 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> > Have you heard from Raine since the moves came
> > through?
>
>Who?
Italy! 8-)
Eric the Turk.
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:20 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Eric,
Yes, Raine and I are talking again, trying to figure out what to do with
Tyrolia. Nothing concrete yet.
Regarding Greece, my only "big news" is what you have evidently already
heard...that Keith would support himself into Greece instead of bouncing in
Trieste and ordering Alb - Gre. Evidently, he really is concerned about a
juggernaut still forming. Go figure.
Have you heard anything I should know?
- Steve
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:21 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Have you heard from Raine since the moves came
> through?
Yes, we talked for a while, mostly about A Tyr. It seems
he felt as though Austria and Germany were ignoring him
a little too much so he put he army there in order to
seem relevent and so be kept in the communication loop.
So he says.
> I haven't, which makes me suspect that
> I'm facing a Lepanto, though he could just be busy.
He did say he was busy in a couple of the press he
sent, have you written to him? I think he usually
replies fairly promptly but he won't always remember
to write if you don't do so first.
I guess there could be a Lepanto brewing, though A Tyr
would seem to indicate otherwise it could be a ruse.
Interestingly Keith has seemed concerned about that
army and asked me what Italy has been saying, so it's
an elaborate ruse if it is one at all. I told him
the truth, which I mentioned to you above.
> Given A Tyl, I don't see how Keith can afford to
> order Vie-Gal again, so War-Gal, Ukr-Rum would
> position us well to take out Austria quickly.
Ukr - Rum is doubtless the best move for Ukr but I
have been wondering (mostly at Keith's suggestion)
about the West and the fact a Sealion (which is what
it looks like over there) would probably knock out
England very quickly and that I'm the only person
who's really in a position to do anything about it.
I'll probably leave it until the builds to try and
do so but it might be profitable to move War to Sil
or Pru, and I thought you prefered me to move my
forces northwards as well.
> Please let me know what you've been hearing.
France and Germany seem pretty solid. The German has
said that I can take Swe in return for continuing to
concentrating on the south so hopefully I'll get that
but he did 'joke' asking what I'd pay for Swe.
England is worried, has said he might want to land an
army in Nwy while supporting Nth from Nwg. That would
be a big buildup on the north but he looks under enough
pressure that I don't think I need to be worried about
that.
Italy and Austria seem to be nervous about each other.
I suspect a Lepanto (or similar) may have been planned
up until the actual moves but A Tyr was unexpected and
obviously that's giving Kieth some worries. I don't think
their differences are irreconsilable though, it might
be worth trying to put a spanner in the works there if
you can think of a good line to use.
What are your plans for F Ank and A Arm? You've said they're
not aimed in my direction but it would be comforting to
know what they are planning to do before I submit any
orders.
Adam.........
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:22 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Yes, I have heard from him. Last night was probably his first chance
to react to things because of the time zone issue. Basically he's a bit
concerned but I'm trying to push him towards the moves that I suggested.
He still thinks this could be an elaborate RT, so I gave him a couple of
arguments as to why that wasn't likely or a matter of concern even if it
were true. Hopefully he'll come around.
Thanks for the tip about Germany by the way, I've sent him some more
specific plans that will hopefully reassure him that we are both on the
same track.
Brent
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:24 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
>Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>Yes, Raine and I are talking again, trying to figure out what to do with
>Tyrolia. Nothing concrete yet.
>
>Keith is concerned about a juggernaut still forming.
>Have you heard anything I should know?
I've heard nothing from Italy, which when combined
with Keith's plans for Greece suggests that I'm facing
a Lepanto. (Which, in turn, will force me to try to
Juggernaut, so Keith's right to be concerned.) This
all implies that Tyl is either headed for War, or will
be visiting Munich this Fall. I dropped England a
note suggesting that he approach you and propose
Yor-Lon, Nth S Ruh-Bel to limit Rod to one build, and
position EG to deal with France, but I haven't heard
back from him, yet.
Eric the Target.
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:25 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> > > Have you heard from Raine since the moves came
> > > through?
> >
> >Who?
>
> Italy! 8-)
Oh, yes I have. I have heard from pretty much everyone except for you.
How about you?
Austria
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:26 2001
Broadcast message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria in 'gutsy':
I'm going out of town for a bit. Be back Wednesday evening.
Austria
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:27 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Thanks Eric. Your last letter made a ton of sense. I'm still not sure if
I'll cover Munich or not, but I'm prepared to. I really hope it is not
necessary.
Also regarding Italy, I suggest a Lepanto is not such a bad thing for you.
It's a fool's dream anyhow and it just gives you the back-side justification
for a juggernaut. From where I sit, Adam is the key for both of us. If
there's anything you'd like me to say in press, I'm here. Just let me know.
Lastly, I will not be bouncing Sweden unless you feel it necessary. If
Russia had moved Moscow north, then yeah I'd be there in a second, but now
it doesn't make much sense no matter who my western partner is. If a four
center Russia is really important to you, let me know. I might still be
able to work it out.
Let's just keep talking. Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:29 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
>I have heard from pretty much everyone except for you. How about you?
I responded to your note in which you said that
you planned to support yourself into Greece. You
gave no hint of any real concern about Italy's move
to Tyl, so I assumed you are expecting a Lepanto,
rather than a "Go Fasta" stab. I've heard from
everyone but Italy.
Eric the Turk.
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:31 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> >I have heard from pretty much everyone except for you. How about you?
>
> I responded to your note in which you said that
> you planned to support yourself into Greece. You
> gave no hint of any real concern about Italy's move
> to Tyl, so I assumed you are expecting a Lepanto,
> rather than a "Go Fasta" stab. I've heard from
> everyone but Italy.
Italy's move did catch me a bit off guard, but I don't think he will
attack me with Tyr. He has a 50-50 chance of guessing the right move to
make.
He has not told me what he wants to do with Tyrolia, but says that he
wanted to get noticed from Germany, who was ignoring him.
I assume that you and Italy will be in conflict sooner or later since you
are both fleet powers. Isn't this your impression? I can have some hand
in that.
I really do have to go now to catch my cab to the airport. I'll talk to
you tomorrow night.
Austria
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:32 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> All I had to do was tell him I'm opening to MAO. I suppose he'd
> be a little harder to fool this turn, eh?
Don't let that stop you from trying. :)
> Hmmmm. I'm wary of an English build F Lvp, and contrary to popular
> opinion, I think our S'02 convoys are far from "guaranteed". As an
> alternative to the standard Sealion continuation, we could conspire
> to deny England a build: If you "leak" Sealion (wherein I support you
> to Nth rather than try for Lon) to him and offer to support Yor-Bel
> (for a presumed EG attack on F), perhaps he'd be willing to risk
> leaving Lon open (since, after all, the FG plan is Sealion). Then I
> could sneak into Lon (offsetting his build from Nwy) while we bounce
> him in Bel. The disadvantage is that you don't get into Nth this
> season. The advantages are that he doesn't get a build, and you have
> the option of using a unit to cover Mun. OTOH, it delays the capture
> of Bel, and there are risks: Yor-Lon, Nth-Bel would be a Very Bad
> Thing. Also, it's rather devious, whereas Sealion is fairly straight-
> forward.
Whew...that was a mouthful. I can't say "I agree exactly" because that is a
lot to digest, but we're thinking along the same lines. I'm willing to
forgo the North Sea and I'm willing to "leak". And, I'd love to see England
stuck at three.
Just to be clear, you're suggesting:
pic - bel
eng - lon
spa - wherever
ruh - mun
kie - hol
den h
With press to encourage an English convoy to Belgium. Right?
Forgive my less than nimble mind, but I wanted to make that clear. Please
write when you can.
- Steve
P.S. Regarding "support in spirit", I'll take what I can get. :)
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:34 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> Just to be clear, you're suggesting:
>
> pic - bel
> eng - lon
> spa - wherever
>
> ruh - mun
> kie - hol
> den h
>
> With press to encourage an English convoy to Belgium. Right?
Yes, that's the idea. If it works, we each get two builds and England
gets none.
Do you think Brent will fall for it? Does it mesh with whatever press
he's been sending you?
Rod
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:35 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Thanks for the specifics. Sounds *very* good; we're thinking along the same
lines.
Are you willing to consider this request, though?
How about I support you into Belgium this fall, you build F Lon and F Lvp
and then you dislodge the channel in '02? As long as I get Holland right
off, I'm happy. Assuming you take Brest and you get a foothold in the
center rich Iberian penninsula, are you willing to let me have Belgium and
Sweden?
We can discuss the unit mix if you'd like, but I'm pretty sure I'll need a
second fleet. Is that okay with you?
Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:36 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Just a follow-up.
In paragraph 3, I meant to say: "Assuming you take the Mid-Atlantic..."
Brest will probably come later, right?
Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:38 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Yep, thanks for the confirmation. You and I are pretty much in sync and
these orders mesh very well with my press to England. I'll keep you posted
on Brent's response. If there's anything you want me to say, please let me
know.
Regarding the east, what do you think is *really* happening there? Eric
claims smy - arm was a mistake; Keith wants Greece bad enough he's willing
to risk a home center; and Adam won't get a build unless I let him have
Sweden. Good game so far.
One other thing, from what I hear, you're the odds-on favorite to take the
west. Evidently your rep impresses people more than mine. :)
Write when you can.
- Steve
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:39 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
>Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>He did say he was busy in a couple of the press he
>sent, have you written to him? I think he usually
>replies fairly promptly but he won't always remember
>to write if you don't do so first.
Yes, he has three unanswered letters from me,
starting the day the Spring results came in.
>I guess there could be a Lepanto brewing, though A Tyr
>would seem to indicate otherwise it could be a ruse.
>Interestingly Keith has seemed concerned about that
>army and asked me what Italy has been saying, so it's
>an elaborate ruse if it is one at all. I told him
>the truth, which I mentioned to you above.
Keith's letter to me downplayed the move. He
said he intended to support himself into Gre, rather
than bouncing Ser and Vie in Tri to keep Raine from
taking Tri or Vie.
>Ukr - Rum is doubtless the best move for Ukr but I
>have been wondering (mostly at Keith's suggestion)
>about the West and the fact a Sealion (which is what
>it looks like over there) would probably knock out
>England very quickly and that I'm the only person
>who's really in a position to do anything about it.
I'd say Keith is trying to protect himself, and
isolate me. Brent can defend Lon, take Nwy, retreat
to Edi and build F Lvp even if he's facing a Sealion,
and Steve doesn't suggest that that is certain by any
means.
>I'll probably leave it until the builds to try and
>do so but it might be profitable to move War to Sil
>or Pru, and I thought you prefered me to move my
>forces northwards as well.
Well, I thought Italy was headed west, now I
fear I'll need your help against AI. Given two
builds, though, I would suggest one in StP.
>What are your plans for F Ank and A Arm?
My provisional orders are Bul S Apu-Gre (just
to breed AI distrust), Ank-Con, Arm-Ank.
Eric the Turk.
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:43 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> You and I are pretty much in sync and
> these orders mesh very well with my press to England.
OK. I'll assume that's our plan unless I hear otherwise.
> Eric claims smy - arm was a mistake
That's what he told me as well. It's the sort of thing that is not
necessarily easy to believe.
> Keith wants Greece bad enough he's willing to risk a home center
He told me that he doesn't think Italy will take the 50/50 chance of
sneaking into Vie/Tri.
> and Adam won't get a build unless I let him have Sweden.
Or unless Turkey leaves him alone after all.
> One other thing, from what I hear, you're the odds-on favorite to
> take the west. Evidently your rep impresses people more than mine.
I don't know whether to be pleased or surprised. :-) Our ratings
are similar, and you've played more games than me. Maybe they just
appreciate my opening to Eng.
Rod
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:44 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
Austria told me that you would have a 50/50 chance of getting Vie or
Tri if you stab him, and Germany told me that Austria is focused on
getting Gre. If this implies Ser S Alb-Gre, then at least one of
Tyl-Tri, War-Gal would succeed - *if* you want to commit to hitting
Austria and make the appropriate arrangements with Russia. Whether
that's actually your best course of action, I don't know.
Rod
From - Tue Sep 18 21:13:45 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
> Maybe they just appreciate my opening to Eng.
Yea, that must be it; I would have opened to the channel too if I could
reach it. :)
- Steve
From - Tue Sep 18 21:47:25 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
> Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Thanks Eric. Your last letter made a ton of sense. I'm still not sure if
> I'll cover Munich or not, but I'm prepared to. I really hope it is not
> necessary.
I tend to doubt it. It's nearly impossible for Italy to hold Munich, so
unless you were confident of taking Den, Hol and Bel, and offered Italy
Mun this year, and support into Bur next year, I don't see him doing it.
(Of course, I've been wrong before. 8-)
> Lastly, I will not be bouncing Sweden unless you feel it necessary.
Hmm, I don't plan to bounce him from Rum, and I'm not sure either
one of us wants a 6-Center Russia in '02, unless you want him to build
F StP/NC as part of the Sealion. That's your call, though.
Eric the Target.
From - Tue Sep 18 21:47:32 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
> Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> Yes, I have heard from him. he's a bit concerned. He still thinks
> this could be an elaborate RT,
Oh, what a crock! Yes, I could probably shift to an RT, and
given his opening and his silence toward me, I probably have to
try, but what is his problem with the Juggernaut? If I ally with
Austria, I'll have to build Fleets. By allying with Russia, I could
build Armies, and stab Russia once Austria was eliminated.
Italy is a bigger threat to Turkey in the opening than Turkey is
to Italy, anyway.
> I'm trying to push him towards the moves that I suggested.
Good luck. I'll keep my fingers crossed, but I'll believe it when I
see it.
Eric the Target.
From - Wed Sep 19 18:23:26 2001
Broadcast message [from Elladan915 at netzero.net,Dip_Power at hotmail.com as
Turkey] in 'gutsy':
> Broadcast message from rkyonkoski at att.net as Master in 'gutsy':
>
> Welcome back to everyone. I see by the voluminous amount of mail in my
> box that everyone is accounted for and back to writing insane amounts of
> press. I feel compelled to read it all, just in case you say something
> nasty about me.
Hmmm, Roger is a ... a ... ummmm, a Care-Bear! ;^}
> Seriously, I want to talk about the deadlines. One season and I messed
> up already. I set the deadline for Monday, thinking that meant Monday
> PM US time. Of course it meant Monday 10 PM New Zealand time.
> So that meant Monday AM US time. Sorry for any confusion.
You oughta be sorry! I logged in to wrap up negotiations, and found
the results in my inbox.
> Let me remind everyone about the deadlines. On movement turns, they
> will be set for 10 PM New Zealand time. You will have to adjust for
> the time zones yourself, since the Judge does not seem to be adjusting
> them for me, even though my time zone is set.
I noticed that, too. We should contact the JK.
> Any questions, let me know. Any complaints, broadcast them grey so
> I will be forced to ignore them. :-)
Go ahead, ignore me, I dare you! Turn your back, pretend I'm not
here. I won't stab you, really, I won't... 8-)
From - Wed Sep 19 18:23:34 2001
Broadcast message [from bwarner34 at home.com as England] in 'gutsy':
So where are all our observers? All these broadcasts are gray, so they're
coming from players. Doesn't the peanut gallery have any type of comment?
Whats the current odds on each player to solo? Who thinks the Spring
"stabs" were real and who thinks they were faked? There's got to be
something to be discussed!
From - Wed Sep 19 18:23:36 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
> Hmm, I don't plan to bounce him from Rum, and I'm not sure either
> one of us wants a 6-Center Russia in '02, unless you want him to build
> F StP/NC as part of the Sealion. That's your call, though.
Oh, okay...so the dirty work falls to me, eh? Ptth...not likely. :)
> I tend to doubt it. It's nearly impossible for Italy to hold Munich, so
> unless you were confident of taking Den, Hol and Bel, and offered Italy
> Mun this year, and support into Bur next year, I don't see him doing it.
> (Of course, I've been wrong before. 8-)
That's pretty much what I'm thinking. I'd be surprised if Raine tries for
Munich. But, I'm still torn whether or not to cover it. I've got a couple
of days to figure it out though.
Talk to you later Mr. Target. :)
- Steve
P.S. Here's a question though: If Keith gets Greece and Adam gets Rumania,
what will be your fifth center?
From - Wed Sep 19 18:23:38 2001
Broadcast message [from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany] in 'gutsy':
> So where are all our observers? All these broadcasts are gray, so they're
> coming from players. Doesn't the peanut gallery have any type of comment?
> Whats the current odds on each player to solo? Who thinks the Spring
> "stabs" were real and who thinks they were faked? There's got to be
> something to be discussed!
Oooh...odds, I like that idea. Anyone want to be the house?
- An anxious bettor
From - Wed Sep 19 18:23:49 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
> Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy'
> > Hmm, I don't plan to bounce him from Rum, and I'm not sure either
> > one of us wants a 6-Center Russia in '02, unless you want him to
> > build F StP/NC as part of the Sealion. That's your call, though.
>
> Oh, okay...so the dirty work falls to me, eh? Ptth...not likely. :)
Russia expects to get bounced in Swe, but it would be foolish of
me to bounce Adam from Rum, if I'm facing a Lepanto. I expect, and
will certainly urge, that Adam's second build will be in StP, so you
have to decide how that fits in with your plans.
> P.S. Here's a question though: If Keith gets Greece and Adam gets
> Rumania, what will be your fifth center?
What makes you think I'm going to get a fifth Center? 8-( Obviously,
it depends on the Fall moves to a certain extent, and the level of AI
cooperation, but I'll have to hope for support into Rum, Ser or Gre, or
take Sev on my own.
Eric the Target.
From - Wed Sep 19 18:23:54 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
[If I ally with Austria, I'll have to build Fleets.]
How so? The fleets won't help you at all against Russia. Or are you
saying after Russia goes down? Hopefully, by the time that happens, Italy
will be ready to help you pinch Austria without needing to build too many
fleets.
[Italy is a bigger threat to Turkey in the opening than Turkey is
to Italy, anyway.]
Probably. I'm just trying to find some way to pull the two of you
together, because its the only real long-range plan I've got right now.
[I'll keep my fingers crossed, but I'll believe it when I see it.]
Thats the good news. Raine's moves this turn should pretty much dictate
where his allegiances are going to be. If he convoys to Tunis, things don't
look good. If he takes it with his fleet, things are looking up. Hopefully
you can give him that chance to show his true colors before making any moves
that would rule out the EIT alliance from his point of view.
Brent
From - Wed Sep 19 18:23:55 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
I know you're in a different time zone so this won't get to you for a
while, but I just wanted to see what your thinking was. Basically Eric has
said that if he sees ION-Tun, he is go for the EIT. If you convoy to Tunis,
you will most likely see a Southern fleet build by him, and things will get
dicey. So, for my sake, I hope you decided to take it with the fleet, I'm
going to need all the help I can get against France!
Brent
From - Wed Sep 19 18:23:56 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
[How about I support you into Belgium this fall, you build F Lon and F Lvp
and then you dislodge the channel in '02?]
This confused me for a minute until I looked back at my message and found
a typo. I ssaid that I planned to support Lon - ENG in the fall, but I
really meant the Spring. I don't want to leave that fleet sitting there any
longer than it needs to. So yes, that was exactly what I had in mind.
[Assuming you take Brest and you get a foothold in the
center rich Iberian penninsula, are you willing to let me have Belgium and
Sweden?]
One of the two for sure. The other kind of depends on Italy's involvement
in the attack. If he stays out as appears to be his plan right now, I'll
get Marseilles and I'd be glad to let you have both. If he gets involved, I
might end up with only Brest and Portugal, and then I'd probably like to
keep one of the other two centers. In general I'm not opposed to the
principle, I just don't want to commit to it right now when there's so many
other factors left undecided. Is that OK?
[We can discuss the unit mix if you'd like, but I'm pretty sure I'll need a
second fleet. Is that okay with you?]
Sure, though I'd like there to be a solid plan for where that fleet is
going to go so I'm not worried about it deciding to get in my way. I
realize that you probably won't make it through the game with just one fleet
though, so at some point the fleet build will have to come. It would seem
to be most useful when the attack on Russia starts in earnest, so maybe we
can hold off it until then.
OK, so unless I hear otherwise from you, my orders are in as Yor - Bel via
Nth and Nwg - Nwy.
Brent
From - Wed Sep 19 18:23:58 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
[He told me that he just entered "something" a long time ago and forgot
to change it. That's a little hard to believe, but you never know.]
Interesting how that same excuse seems to be popping up in the gray
broadcasts. Either Eric is being not too careful about disguising who
they're from, or someone is impersonating him. Either way, I'm somewhat
skeptical of that excuse, though NZMB does have a weird timezone and
confused me the first time I played on it.
[I'm always wary of a faux R/T skirmish suckering Italy into stabbing
Austria, then BOOM - Juggernaut.]
Yep, definitely something we'll have to watch. Right now Italy is pretty
hard to read, hopefully his moves this turn will make things a bit more
clear as his diplomacy with me has been pretty dodgy. I tried to
surreptitiously mention the move to Munich, but I don't want to push it
because that would seem out of character. Hopefully the idea has been
planted though.
Brent
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:02 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> Right now Italy is pretty hard to read
I asked him what his plans are for A Tyl, and he responded that he
doesn't know yet. Apparently, he just moved to Tyl in order to keep
himself relevant to his neighbors.
> hopefully his moves this turn will make things a bit more clear
Indeed. The orders for both Tyl and Arm should be quite revealing.
(Just like my order for F Eng, eh?) ;-)
Rod
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:04 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
>Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>[If I ally with Austria, I'll have to build Fleets.]
>The fleets won't help you at all against Russia.
My two current Armies are enough to aid Austria
against Russia. Any additional Armies would be a
threat to Austria, just as additional Fleets would
be a threat to Italy.
> > [I'll believe it when I see it.]
>Raine's moves this turn should pretty much dictate
>where his allegiances are going to be. If he convoys to Tunis, things
>don't look good. If he takes it with his fleet, things are looking up.
Agreed.
>Hopefully you can give him that chance to show his true colors before
>making any moves that would rule out the EIT alliance from his point of
>view.
Rom-Apu forces me to be neutral this Fall. I
can't afford to order Arm-Sev (to cut Sev S Ukr-Rum),
Bul-Rum (to bounce Ukr-Rum), Ank-Bla, with Italy
showing a Lepanto, since I'll need Adam's help if
I'm facing an AI alliance. If Raine orders Ion-Tun,
Apu-Ven/Rom, then I can build an Army, (or a second
Fleet to force Bla), and attack Austria or Russia,
but if he doesn't, I'll have to build F Smy to
defend myself.
Eric the Target. ;^}
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:05 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Yes, he has three unanswered letters from me,
> starting the day the Spring results came in.
That's odd. I'll ask him why but I doubt we'll get
an answer before the deadline now, even with the
extension
> Keith's letter to me downplayed the move. He
> said he intended to support himself into Gre, rather
> than bouncing Ser and Vie in Tri to keep Raine from
> taking Tri or Vie.
Whatever he intends to do with Ser, he refused
to use it to support me into Rum anyway, saying
he had to look after his own interests first.
> I'd say Keith is trying to protect himself, and
> isolate me. Brent can defend Lon, take Nwy, retreat
> to Edi and build F Lvp even if he's facing a Sealion,
> and Steve doesn't suggest that that is certain by any
> means.
I'm sure that France is more dedicated to the Sealion
than Germany is, but it looks probable to me, though
not as probable that Kieth is trying to isolate you
admitedly.
> Well, I thought Italy was headed west, now I
> fear I'll need your help against AI. Given two
> builds, though, I would suggest one in StP.
Probably what I'd hope for. Whenever I play Russia
I'm never sure what to do with A War. I tried sending
it into Germany once and then the south got so complex
immediately that I had to move it back straight away.
> My provisional orders are Bul S Apu-Gre (just
> to breed AI distrust), Ank-Con, Arm-Ank.
That sounds reasonable, with a build F Smy the
Lepanto would be set back a step or two at any
rate. I'll definately give some thought to moving
War to Gal and I'll let you know if Italy gets
back to me at all.
Adam......
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:07 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
So, assuming you and Keith managed to chat about moves
it's hopeful that we'll all be on Turkey's back next
year. Good. Eric is, it seems, quite concerned at the
moment about an AI Lepanto and is encouraging me to
go after Kieth to try and slow that down. His main
reasoning seems to be that Keith told him that he intended
to go from Gre anyway and also that you haven't replied
to any of his press this year. He says he's written
three times and recieved nothing. Is that true?
I said I'd ask you why that was and let him know,
is there a reason in particular? What would you
like me to say to him? I told him I doubted you'd
get back to me before the deadline now anyway so
there's no rush on that.
Adam.........
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:08 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
> Yeah, that's pretty much a dead give-away! ;-) I asked Eric about
> his move, and his excuse is that he just entered "something" a long
> time ago and forgot to change it. Personally, I find that hard to
> believe.
Yeah, it's a little improbable at this level of play but
the deadline was a little sooner than anyone thought and
it also passed with no 'set wait' apparently. This is
the excuse he gave me to so at least he's being consistant.
> > This means, of course, that he wasn't sure
> > where the final destination was, probably still isn't.
>
> That's what Raine told me as well. We'll see....
Eric seems to think that Keith was deadpanning the
move, planning to support into Gre anyway which
would indicate that he's not taking it to seriously.
I guess the fall moves will reveal all though.
Adam........
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:09 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
> Just to reassure you, I don't think the convoy to Norway is going to
> happen. If it is, I'll definitely get final approval from you, but
> otherwise you can assume that the army has other duties and that I'll be
> taking Norway with a fleet. I understand that the army in Norway would
> be a cause for concern for you, and I think you've got enough to worry
> about already!
That's what I prefer, certainly. I've been talking to Eric
a little lately and he seems to be of the opinion that Steve
has indicated the Sealion is far from a forgone conculsion.
It looks to me that the weak-point of the conspiriacy against
you in the West would be Steve in Germany anyway. He's the
one who's least commited to the attack as well. Might be
useful information so I thought I'd pass it on.
Good luck in the fall.
Adam.........
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:11 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
I think you said you'd be away until Wed, but just in
case...
> Thank you for not moving to Gal. I can provide any assistance you will
> need, but it will probably become a non-issue by the Fall, when Turkey
> will certainly have lost Bulgaria.
I hope so. Eric has been trying hard to get me to move to
Gal, which is a shame for him since I don't think it's
really in my best interests.
> I hope you can find something to do with Warsaw.
It's looking like it'll have to wait until next year
now and just hold for a season. Oh well.
Adam........
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:12 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Eric seems to think that Keith was deadpanning the
> move, planning to support into Gre anyway which
> would indicate that he's not taking it to seriously.
Keith told me he doesn't think Italy will take the 50/50 chance of
getting Vie or Tri, and Steve said he expects Austria to focus on Gre.
So either we've got this all figured out, or we're the victims of a
concerted propaganda campaign. :-)
Rod
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:14 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
Steve,
> I share your fear. I don't think they are actively working together, but
> neither one is in any position to attack the other right off.
They've done a reasonable job of either convincing me that
they're not working together or else told the truth and they're
actually a little afraid of each other. Eric is scared of AI
and Keith is afraid of I too. At least that's the stories they're
giving me.
> That is very good to hear. I would appreciate it if you pass on any other
> info that crosses your desk. I'll do the same.
Not much at the moment. If Italy does do anything with A Tyr
then I'm currently thinking it's less likely to be an attack
on Austria. Without Austria's help he's unlikely to move
on Germany though. Maybe if I helped I guess, but that's
out of the question while the south is so confused.
> Actually, I think it might have been a mistake. Kind of hard to recover
> from, but if you and Eric can work things out, I'd say go for the
> juggernaut. If you can't, the best thing I see is GIR cooperation. I can't
> do much militarily, but I sure can keep England and France occupied while
> you and Raine pick up the centers.
It looks more like a mistake to me now than it did
when the results first came out, but obviously it
still restricts my movements. I suppose we'll know
for sure after the fall moves but until then I have
to play safe again. It feels like I'm being way to
cautious so far this game, it's the confusing signals
I'm getting for AT that's forced my hand though.
Adam.........
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:18 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey and England in
'gutsy':
Dear Gentlemen,
Thanks for the interesting ideas. The plan is good indeed. I have already
an idea what to tell to France and Austria but I am not 100% sure if this
is good for Italy.
You should know that I am aware of the fact that if I move to Tun with
a fleet instead of an army I cannot hurt Turkey anymore. Turkey knows that
for sure. So I hope you could try to convince me somehow that Turkey is
really serious. Forgive me if I sound like unreasonable but I am about to
restrict my possibilities a lot if I move to Tunis with a fleet.
What is the exact plan? I know what I am supposed to do but what is Turkey
going to do? We need to open now. We need to build up trust. ETI will not
work without commitment from all of us.
I hate the fact that I am the only one who is not sounding like 'yeah baby
let's go for it this is amazing, yeah' :-) I think I am limiting my
chances a lot if I agree to DMZ Ionian.
I know I have a lot to gain from ETI. But only if it really works. If it
doesn't work then I have lost my ability to attack Turkey.
Yours,
Raine
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:19 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Austria will be gone for awhile so let's talk privately until he comes
back.
> > Has Austria given you a response according to Rumanian situation?
>
> He doesn't want to support me into Rumania this fall, I suspect
> because he's still thinking about going after Gre, especially if
> it turns out he can trust A Tyr. He says that he'll help me into
> Rum next year if I fail this year though. I guess whether that
> actually happens will depend on his alignment to Turkey.
I am just a bit concerned about AT. Austria is not pushing me for
Lepanto. It seems like it is ok if I just go west. There is no problem for
me if I would be sure of AR against T. Austria is a silent person so maybe
it ain't his style to push others. Still I see RAI as my best shot at the
moment.
Turkey obviously sent those broadcasts :-) Are you willing to believe that
the move to Arm was accident? The whole disscussion about deadlines is
misleading. You can use floc.net and there is a possiblity to get the
deadlines in your own timezone time. I believe all of us are using it.
Especially those guys you have played a lot.
Your plan to RAI against T was good. Only exception is that we could
attack Austria when Turkey is gone :-)
Raine
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:22 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
Sorry for the silence. I got a new computer at work :-) It is awesome. I
can't get away from it. I need to install programs and test how fast it
is.
But back to ETI. I think the plan is good. I like it. BUT I have played
Turkey, also. Turkeys 1st concern is Lepanto. Turkey will promise
everything to prevent it. And the truth is that if I forget Lepanto now it
is bye bye to it forever.
What makes me believe you are not serious about ETI? Well, thank you for
the opening analysis :-) I noticed there was clearly expressed the
following: Turkey attacks Russia, Italy have a chance to attack Austria.
So I am sure it was from you :-) Then, you mailed more gray
broadcasts. There you gave the impression that you might have wrong moves
in when the turn processed (did it really process too early?).
SummaSummarum
-I doubt your goodwill in ETI. I know you are supposed to say those nice
words you are saying.
-I'd love to co-operate with someone having your skills and diplomatic
tongue.
-I would love to show the world that TI _can_ exist.
-I know I cannot hurt you if I forget Lepanto.
-I still do not know if I should believe you or not. Forgive me that I am
strict and say this aloud. I hope you can appreciate my honesty.
Raine
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:23 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Ok, we got 3way talks started. I want to talk with you alone also. I mean
the masterplan Russia proposed was good but in the end you are free to
attack Russia if you want ;-) Most probably it is a good thing to do for
you if Turkey is gone. I do not want to see a strong Russia in there.
> Yes, I will definitely be supporting myself to Greece.
I hope you will. Or it really doesn't matter if you support yourself there
or if you get there without support. I mean, if you have an agreement with
Turkey about it. To me it is important that you get 2 buids. I don't care
if you move Vie H or Vie-Tri to defend those centers. I understand that
you cannot be sure of my goodwill, yet. After the moves you can. So get
Gre,Ser and 2 builds no matter how.
> I'll bet he is talking to you now. I am sure you will be wanting to make
> sure that France does not get too powerful. It is a good idea to be
> talking to Germany.
I have talked to wall before the move to Tyr. Now the 'wall' is
responding :-)
> I would like to see you move it somewhere, either Piedmont, Munich,
> Bohemia or back to Venice. I don't mind your being in Austria so much,
> but Tyrolia does boader on two of my supply centers.
Ok. I will honour your wish.
> I think Russia is probably hostile, and that he is collaborating with
> Turkey, but I can't be sure.
Me neither. Now that there has been this AIR talks I am more likely to
believe that Russia is serious. He has been talking about ARI from the
beginning (to me). Now he had the courage to talk about it between ARI.
> I think it is possible, but I don't think we should share too much
> information with Russia about your tactics. Or, we could purposely
> mislead him. The tricky part is to get your fleet into Aeg or Eas in the
> Spring.
I agree. Let's keep it between us how to handle the moves in Med. I could
get to Aeg if you support me from Greece. I think that should
work.
> I will be away until Wednesday evening.
I hope you reply as soon as possible when you come back.
Raine
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:25 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
About RT. Again those grey broadcast are most possibly from Turkey. He
tries to tell Russia that he 'by accident' moved to arm. Because no-one
set wait deadline came earlier than he thought.
> You're correct, it is possible that the move to Armenia was part of an
> arranged RT. But I would tend to doubt it. One, Russia would be taking an
> awful lot of risk, and I can't see a new player surrounded by experienced
> ones being willing to put himself in that position. Two, if RT was the real
> goal, we'll probably be able to see it in the Fall moves.
Then it is too late for me to attack Turkey efficiently. I cannot do
Lepanto if I leave Ion now. That is my problem with Ion DMZ.
> By making such a
> bold attack in the Spring, Eric either has to continue it, or risk the
> entire board noticing right away the switch. And three, I'm going with an
> Occam's razor principle here. From everything that Turkey has told us and
> others, his most likely motivation is attacking Russia. While its not a
> guarantee, I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary, so I'm prone to
> assuming that is the case.
For turkish point of view it is essential to prevent Lepanto now. Nothing
else matters.
> Thats another good thing about the move set I proposed though, it doesn't
> force you to commit to an attack on France until Spring 02. If Eric makes a
> sudden about face, or makes builds that are not what we agreed on, you
> always have the chance to turn around and head East. But if he does proceed
> as planned, you're still in position to make a solid attack with some
> immediate gains in France.
Your plan is good. There is no doubt about it. My only concern is that I
am not sure if Eric is 100% with us. Oh, I don't get any immediate gains
from France. That is nonsense. Only way to get SC in '02 is by EGI attack
against F in '02.
> Oh, and as for the gray broadcast on the openings, I wouldn't read too
> much into its content. I believe all the text is taken directly from the
> Interactive Openings Library, and thus any biases are those of the author's
> there. Why someone would choose to send it out is another story, but it can
> only be speculation at this point and I don't have any really good ideas.
> Perhaps someone wanted to point out to me that Germany and France looked to
> be in a Sealion? Or warn Austria about the "Go Fasta"? Since the text is
> straight out of the books, and not all that insightful for experienced
> players, I would wager a guess that the target was the inexperienced
> players, myself, Russia, and possibly you.
Yes the text was from the book, I know it. But there was some nice 'cut
and paste' done in there. That is why I am concerned about it.
Raine
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:29 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
>Message from Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> > Yes, he has three unanswered letters from me,
> > starting the day the Spring results came in.
>
>That's odd. I'll ask him why, but ...
Yeah, even if he's committed to the Lepanto,
AND sure of Keith, the silent treatment still
doesn't make sense.
>I'm sure that France is more dedicated to the Sealion
>than Germany is, but it looks probable to me, though
>not as probable that Kieth is trying to isolate you
>admitedly.
Yes, I'd say the odds favor a Sealion, even
though EG could cooperate to limit France to one
build, and be well positioned to hurt Rod next year.
>Whenever I play Russia I'm never sure what to do with A War. I tried
>sending it into Germany once and then the south got so complex immediately
>that I had to move it back straight away.
Yes, Russia might have four Units, but it also
has three different fronts, so it's always a
challenge. The conventional wisdom says send three
Units South in the opening, and then build in the
North or West as soon as you can afford to. While
I'm not a slave to the conventional wisdom, in this
case, I think it does make sense.
> > My provisional orders are Bul S Apu-Gre (just
> > to breed AI distrust), Ank-Con, Arm-Ank.
>
>That sounds reasonable, with a build F Smy the
>Lepanto would be set back a step or two at any
>rate. I'll definately give some thought to moving
>War to Gal and I'll let you know if Italy gets
>back to me at all.
I've changed to Bul S Ser, hoping that I can use
the threat implied by IA Tyl to influence Keith,
and I'm toying with Arm-Syr to really make the
Lepanto unattractive. War-Gal probably makes
the most sense, given Ven-Tyl. Tyl-Boh, with
plans to move on to Sil next Spring is possible,
especially considering the fact that Keith is
still playing up the RT threat to Germany.
War-Sil would annoy Germany, and confirm Keith's
claims to him, while War-Gal allows you to build
in War, and order Gal S War-Sil, next Spring if
Italy orders Tyl-Boh this Fall.
Eric the Target.
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:30 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England and Italy in 'gutsy':
>Message from Italy to Turkey and England in 'gutsy':
>
>I am aware of the fact that if I move to Tun with
>a fleet instead of an army I cannot hurt Turkey anymore.
This simply isn't true.
>So I hope you could try to convince me somehow that Turkey is really
>serious.
I moved exactly as you requested, what more can
I do? Declare war on Russia???
>I know what I am supposed to do but what is Turkey
>going to do? We need to open now.
Given the Lepanto threat, I have no choice but
to move F Ank-Con to defend against it. Had you moved
Rom-Tus, or Rom-Ven, I could have attacked Russia,
but doing so this Fall would be suicidal if you order
Ion C Apu-Tun.
>I think I am limiting my chances a lot if I agree to DMZ Ionian. If ETI
>doesn't work then I have lost my ability to attack Turkey.
This is simply not true. Let's look at the
Italian worst case again:
Italy:
Ion-Tun
Apu-Ven
Tyl HOLD
Build F Rom
Turkey:
Ank-Con
Arm-Syr
Bul HOLD
Build F Smy
Spring '02:
Austria:
Gre-Aeg (*bounce*)
Italy:
Tun-Ion
Rom-Nap
Turkey:
Con-Aeg (*bounce*)
Smy-EMed
Making progress against me would be difficult, but
AI would have a 3 to 2 Fleet advantage, and Keith
has the tactical skills to crack the Turkish
Defense. Even if Keith doesn't bounce me,
Nap S Ion from F1902 onward keeps me from making
any progress against you, so there's no advantage
in my lying to you. If you move Ion-Tun this Fall,
I will build either an Army, or F Ank.
Eric the Target. 8-)
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:33 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> I am just a bit concerned about AT. Austria is not pushing me for
> Lepanto. It seems like it is ok if I just go west. There is no problem for
> me if I would be sure of AR against T. Austria is a silent person so maybe
> it ain't his style to push others. Still I see RAI as my best shot at the
> moment.
I share your concerns. I think Eric and Keith both have a
different style to me. Keith sends press like it's gold
only he puts little of any value in it. Eric talks a little
more but doesn't seem interesting in talking about actual
moves or plans at all. I think I'm going to assume that
they're not very aligned with each other. This is what
Steve seems to think too. Hopefully Keith will start to
chat a little more when we have made some commitment against
Turkey.
> Turkey obviously sent those broadcasts :-) Are you willing to believe that
> the move to Arm was accident?
He's given the same story to France and Germany at at least,
and his press seems to be full of worry about a Lepanto and
AI getting together. I don't know if it was an accident as
such, but I think he regrets it at least a little.
> The whole disscussion about deadlines is
> misleading. You can use floc.net and there is a possiblity to get the
> deadlines in your own timezone time. I believe all of us are using it.
> Especially those guys you have played a lot.
I do use floc.net for the maps, but I hadn't bothered to
make an account there and list all my games etc. until
just now. It could help a lot if I played in more than
one or two games at a time I guess.
> Your plan to RAI against T was good. Only exception is that we could
> attack Austria when Turkey is gone :-)
Well, the plan tends to need to be extended past where
I'd actually want to play it if we're to keep Keith on
board. When I'm not even sure what's going to happen
this fall I don't really trust my plans for the middle
to end game anyway. :)
Adam.........
From - Wed Sep 19 18:24:34 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Italy and Turkey in 'gutsy':
OK guys, everyone is starting to get accusatory and things are falling
apart. What we have is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Raine suspects that
Eric might open RT, so he hedges his bets by opening to Apulia. This
makes Eric think that Raine might be involved in an IA alliance, so he
plans to move to Con. Hearing this I would guess will make Rinae decide
that there is an RT, so he will convoy to Tunis. In the end, everyone
ends up fighting not because they wanted to, but because they were sure
the other guy was going to attack.
The downward spiral has already started and I don't know that I'm
going to be able to stop it, but I'm going to try. The way I see it,
this game is all about who can take risks and get away with it. Sure,
it would be nice if you could get away without taking any risks, but
clearly in a game of this caliber that just isn't going to happen. The
person or persons who win this game are going to be the ones that took
risks on the right things.
Right now, both of you are being asked to take a risk on each other.
If either one wavers, they have the chance to gain an advantage over the
other. But if neither of you wavers, everyone wins. So the question
is, how bad is it if you take the risk and the other person doesn't,
versus not taking the risk at all. Lets say that Eric decides to attack
Russia and Raine does go for the Lepanto. Eric responds by building a
Southern fleet. There is no element of surprise, plus the real key is
who Austria decides to side with. The end result is neither of you are
in a very good situation. Reverse the roles, Raine moves the fleet to
Tunis, and Eric goes for an RT. Austria is going to see it immediately,
and Raine can still move to the Ionian in the Spring. The end result is
a pretty much 2 on 2 stalemate that favors the Western alliance most of
all. What I'm trying to say is that there really is very little benefit
to either of you to attack each other now. You just lock yourself into
a course of action that will be balanced out by the others, and you've
lost yourself an alliance.
I think we got a really good thing going here, and we're going to
squander it, and the only people who are going to benefit are gonig to
be the other players. Come on, think of all the people watching. Would
you rather they say "Well, Eric didn't win, but his cautiousness in the
early going kept him in the game." or "Wow, I've never seen an EIT
alliance sweep the board right from the beginning. Those guys must
really know how to negotiate." And if you do get stabbed? Well, you
can still make darn sure that the stabber doesn't go on to win the game.
The road to victory starts right here, but you have to have the guts to
get on it.
OK, thats as much pep talk as I can come up with. Ultimately the
decision comes down to you guys. For my sake, and your own, I hope you
make the right one.
Brent
From - Thu Sep 20 05:11:58 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
If you have the chance, I'd like to talk more about the Tyrolian unit and
about the game in general. I'll be on-line much of the day tomorrow, so
please write when you can.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Thu Sep 20 05:12:03 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
My reports indicate the same thing, Germany is probably the weaker link in
the FG alliance. We'll have to wait for the results to see if my efforts
with him have been successful.
Since both of us clearly have other problems to worry about, I was hoping
we could make an agreement not to make any Northern fleet builds. I will
agree to refrain from building F Edi in exchange for your agreement not to
build F StP(nc). Even an army build in StP would leave me awfully
concerned, but including that would seem to make this agreement a bit
one-sided, so I'll only ask for the fleet. I think our best chances right
now are to maintain a solid friendship so that we can concentrate our full
attention elsewhere. If there's anything else you can think of to aid this
that hasn't already come up, please let me know.
Brent
From - Thu Sep 20 05:12:07 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria, England,
France, Germany, Russia and Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi everybody,
I want to make a public apologize for talking less than usually. I got a
new computer at work. I have been installing programs and testing how fast
it is and so on. I know I should fully concentrate on gutsy ;-)
Raine with a new toy in his desk
From - Thu Sep 20 05:12:09 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England and Turkey in
'gutsy':
Dear Gentlemen,
I am talking to ET by the way ;-) ('press to et')
> >I am aware of the fact that if I move to Tun with
> >a fleet instead of an army I cannot hurt Turkey anymore.
>
> This simply isn't true.
My best shot is gone. That _is_ true.
> >So I hope you could try to convince me somehow that Turkey is really
> >serious.
>
> I moved exactly as you requested, what more can
> I do? Declare war on Russia???
I would not have wanted to hear from others that Turkey seems to be
apologizing his move to Armenia. That wasn't in the plan.
> Given the Lepanto threat, I have no choice but
> to move F Ank-Con to defend against it. Had you moved
> Rom-Tus, or Rom-Ven, I could have attacked Russia,
> but doing so this Fall would be suicidal if you order
> Ion C Apu-Tun.
You are defending against a threat??? I remember there were no limitations
in spring moves. If it was a deadend with EIT when I moved to Ionian then
why didn't you say so immediately?
> Italian worst case again:
That wasn't the worst case. In worst case there is hostile Austria! In
worst case I have only one support to hold Ionian and you AT has 3
fleets. Make the calculations.
> Making progress against me would be difficult, but
> AI would have a 3 to 2 Fleet advantage, and Keith
> has the tactical skills to crack the Turkish
> Defense. Even if Keith doesn't bounce me,
> Nap S Ion from F1902 onward keeps me from making
> any progress against you, so there's no advantage
> in my lying to you. If you move Ion-Tun this Fall,
> I will build either an Army, or F Ank.
You are correct. We are both giving an image where Austria is on the other
side. So we are both correct with our analysis. BUT it all depends on
where Austria will turn.
I would have fallen in love with EIT if Turkey would be in Black Sea now.
Then there would not have been a need to build that 2nd fleet. I have
heard that it was prearranged bounce in Black Sea and that is not making
my position more comfortable. Now Turkey is thinking about to build
another fleet _even if_ I move to Tunis with fleet. No, that would
be as difficult for me as fleet in Ionian seems to be to you. My problem
is that I will have to show my cards 1st and then you can make your
decision. I'd like to turn it around. I will convoy to Tunis. I will be
honest. Does my convoy to Tunis mean the end of EIT? If so I would like to
ask why? My simple masterplan is to be honest with you. I want to see how
Eric moves in fall. It would be intolerable that I cannot be in Ionian Sea
now. Especially when we are both unsure of Austrian. C'mon how talkative
has Austria been to you both? After you answer to that question then think
about the fact that I am on _very_ different timezone with him. Think how
much I can trust him.
Summary:
-I will be honest with you
-I convoy to Tunis
-I'll give the destiny of EIT to you Eric
-I am not giving up EIT due to Ionian situation
-I might give it up due to Eric's forthcoming moves
-Unlike Eric who is defending against a threat I am not defending or
threatning anyone I am playing open here. If you think a convoy to Tunis
is unreasonable then feel free to end ETI.
Raine
From - Thu Sep 20 05:12:11 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
this is a short one I'll only answer to your questions.
> So, assuming you and Keith managed to chat about moves
> it's hopeful that we'll all be on Turkey's back next
> year. Good. Eric is, it seems, quite concerned at the
> moment about an AI Lepanto and is encouraging me to
> go after Kieth to try and slow that down. His main
> reasoning seems to be that Keith told him that he intended
> to go from Gre anyway and also that you haven't replied
> to any of his press this year. He says he's written
> three times and recieved nothing. Is that true?
I don't know how many short messages Eric sent me but I haven't replied to
him as often as to you. But it was true that I haven't replied to Eric.
> I said I'd ask you why that was and let him know,
> is there a reason in particular?
I feel like nerdie (is that a correct word for person who is married with
computer?) but I got this new computer and it takes a lot of my time.
> What would you like me to say to him? I told him I doubted you'd
> get back to me before the deadline now anyway so
> there's no rush on that.
The truth.
Raine
From - Thu Sep 20 05:12:14 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
I was a bit inaccurate when I promised my support to you in all
circumstances in east. The only situation where you won't get my full
support is when there is a RT. Otherwise I am on your side 100%.
> moves or plans at all. I think I'm going to assume that
> they're not very aligned with each other. This is what
> Steve seems to think too. Hopefully Keith will start to
> chat a little more when we have made some commitment against
> Turkey.
I also hope so.
> He's given the same story to France and Germany at at least,
> and his press seems to be full of worry about a Lepanto and
> AI getting together. I don't know if it was an accident as
> such, but I think he regrets it at least a little.
Wow, to me he is adamant he is attacking you and he is worried about
Lepanto. I told him that I will convoy to Tunis and I won't ease his fears
of Lepanto. That should ease your situation in there. I hope it means that
Eric won't attack you with all his forces. He might even turn fully
against me, however that is not what I want :-) So I believe you should
get Rumania and with a good luck you can also move to Black Sea but make
the decision yourself. I think the only thing you should be worried about
is AT alliance. If there ain't AT then in your shoes I would move to Bla
and Rum (gutsy moves but this is Gutsy :-).
> I do use floc.net for the maps, but I hadn't bothered to
> make an account there and list all my games etc. until
> just now. It could help a lot if I played in more than
> one or two games at a time I guess.
The talks about deadlines (especially if it was Eric) are nonsense. He is
trying to fool you that it was an accident to move to Arm. Eric has played
so many games that it was no accident.
Also one important thing you should know. I asked from austria where he
would like to see my army in Tyr moving. I told that I will move to Boh
only if he thinks Russia is hostile. He replied that he is unsure of your
goodwill but he wouldn't say that you are hostile. He did not ask me to
move to Boh, not that I would move there anyway.
Raine
From - Thu Sep 20 05:12:15 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
I am getting mail more that I expected due to move to Tyr :-)
> The problem I've always faced playing Italy is where does the fifth center
> come from? Every other country can get two builds without angering its
> neighbors too much. I'm sure you know that.
Yes. I have played Italy before.
> > One possibility would be that I would move to Mun in spring so that
> > you could dislodge me in fall. That would be something.
>
> I've seen that ploy work very well in another game. Obviously, I'm
> reluctant to try it without some reassurances, but I'm fairly open minded.
> I have a couple of questions, though:
>
> - What would the next couple of seasons look like?
> - How would that affect my relationship with France and England?
That would be definetly against France. So if France would guess that it
would hurt your relations with France but in the same time it would make
your relations with England better.
Now it is fall so I am not asking you to let me to Munich. That was in
spring if we decide to something like that.
Next couple of seasons:
-I would like to see GE. Obviously I don't like strong France.
-I am not 100% sure of east. Austria is too silent :-(
> trustworthy. The funny thing is that you are not the first person to
> suggest EG.
Then go for it ;-) Democracy rules, is it zero votes for the opposite?
Maybe France is against it...
> When you write England next, please suggest a way the three of
> us can cooperate.
Have you already done that? We could make a 3-way attack against France
and I could move to Munich in next spring and then you'd dislodge me. I am
sure England would be delighted about that.
Could you give me your comment about two things:
1. RT alliance
2. AT alliance
I really would appreciate if you would share you info of those things.
Raine
From - Thu Sep 20 05:12:18 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I think our RR-alliance is working properly :-)
'R' rules! Gooo R's!!! Shaking Pom Poms vigorously ;-)
Do you think it is worthwhile to attack Austria? I mean are you sure there
ain't RT? I heard that Turkey is acting like it was a mistake move
to Armenia. Have you heard those stories? I won't attack Austria if there
is a chance of RT.
Raine
From - Thu Sep 20 05:12:20 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
I'm back. Athe airports are really vacant. I was the only person on one
of the flights I took. How odd.
> Ok, we got 3way talks started. I want to talk with you alone also. I mean
> the masterplan Russia proposed was good but in the end you are free to
> attack Russia if you want ;-) Most probably it is a good thing to do for
> you if Turkey is gone. I do not want to see a strong Russia in there.
Yes, if you are going to gear up for an eventual attack on France, you
will need more of the Turkish centers, and there won't be any to share
with Russia.
> I hope you will. Or it really doesn't matter if you support yourself there
> or if you get there without support. I mean, if you have an agreement with
> Turkey about it. To me it is important that you get 2 buids. I don't care
> if you move Vie H or Vie-Tri to defend those centers. I understand that
> you cannot be sure of my goodwill, yet. After the moves you can. So get
> Gre,Ser and 2 builds no matter how.
I'm supporting myself, because to do otherwise would invite disaster.
> > I would like to see you move it somewhere, either Piedmont, Munich,
> > Bohemia or back to Venice. I don't mind your being in Austria so much,
> > but Tyrolia does boader on two of my supply centers.
>
> Ok. I will honour your wish.
Great!
> Me neither. Now that there has been this AIR talks I am more likely to
> believe that Russia is serious. He has been talking about ARI from the
> beginning (to me). Now he had the courage to talk about it between ARI.
Personally I feel that when someone sends a message to more than one
person, it often contains many mistruths.
> I agree. Let's keep it between us how to handle the moves in Med. I could
> get to Aeg if you support me from Greece. I think that should
> work.
Well it depends on whether Turkey is able to get a second fleet on Aeg or
not... But if Russia is involved, then it will be easy.
Austria
From - Thu Sep 20 05:12:21 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
> I think you said you'd be away until Wed, but just in
> case...
Yes, I'm back now.
> I hope so. Eric has been trying hard to get me to move to
> Gal, which is a shame for him since I don't think it's
> really in my best interests.
I'm glad you feel that way.
> It's looking like it'll have to wait until next year
> now and just hold for a season. Oh well.
Well that leaves you with some flexibilty. It isn't as alarming as
actually building something in Warsaw, and you have time to decide where
you will need it moved the most.
Austria
From - Thu Sep 20 05:12:23 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Here in Finland one usually needs to be at airport an hour before the time
when plane is scheduled to leave. Now when going abroad one needs to there
much earlier it is recommended to be there 3 hours before.
> Yes, if you are going to gear up for an eventual attack on France, you
> will need more of the Turkish centers, and there won't be any to share
> with Russia.
ARI would be hard for you 'cause you are in the middle. I am ready to make
your life easier here. I would move towards France when it is clear that
Turkey is down and like you said I would need more than one of those
turkish centers. Also I am ready to listen to you a lot in ARI 3-way
alliance your voice is more important to me than Russia's 'cause your
happiness correlates with mine.
> I'm supporting myself, because to do otherwise would invite disaster.
That is ok to me.
> Personally I feel that when someone sends a message to more than one
> person, it often contains many mistruths.
How do you feel about this ARI? I mean, I am ready to go for it. I just
need to know if you and Russia share my enthuastic view.
> Well it depends on whether Turkey is able to get a second fleet on Aeg or
> not... But if Russia is involved, then it will be easy.
If you support yourself to Greece then you will endup there. So it is up
to you if you want to let Turkey to Aeg or not.
Look:
Italy Ion-Aeg
Austria Gre s Ion-Aeg
Turkey (in worst case i.e. after Con-ank and fleet built in Smy)
Con S Smy-aeg or the other way around.
So Turkey is not able to go to Aeg if you say so. There is also a
possibility for me to go to Eme. Also if Russia is serious (I believe he
is) then we should be able to handle Turkey. It is more complicated with
cutting supports and so. But Turkey needs to take into account bulgaria
also. He cannot left it unguarded.
Raine
From - Thu Sep 20 16:34:23 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England and Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine and Brent,
> Message from as Italy to England and Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> I am talking to ET by the way ;-) ('press to et')
I'd suggest that you tell him to phone home, then... 8-)
> > >I am aware of the fact that if I move to Tun with
> > >a fleet instead of an army I cannot hurt Turkey anymore.
> >
> > This simply isn't true.
>
> My best shot is gone. That _is_ true.
Yes, but I agreed to open to Bla and I opened to Arm, so my best
shot against you is ALREADY gone, and yet you're talking about
continuing with the Lepanto! It only seems fair that you should also
give up your best shot at attacking me, (if you want to ally with me,)
since I have already done so.
> I would not have wanted to hear from others that Turkey seems
> to be apologizing his move to Armenia. That wasn't in the plan.
No, what wasn't in the plan was Rom-Apu. Given that break
with the plan, AND your silence, I HAD to try to smooth things
over with Adam. As the saying goes, actions speak louder than
words. My moves were an attack on Russia, according to our
plan. Your moves are an attack on me, when the plan called for
you to attack France.
> > Given the Lepanto threat, I have no choice but
> > to move F Ank-Con to defend against it. Had you moved
> > Rom-Tus, or Rom-Ven, I could have attacked Russia,
> > but doing so this Fall would be suicidal if you order
> > Ion C Apu-Tun.
>
> You are defending against a threat??? I remember there were no limitations
> in spring moves. If it was a deadend with EIT when I moved to Ionian then
> why didn't you say so immediately?
I wrote long ago:
: for me to commit to an IT without an agreement for a DMZ of Ion is
: a bigger risk for me, than agreeing to the DMZ is for you. Nap-Ion,
: Ven-Pie, Rom-Ven, followed by Ion-Tun would work, though.
All of our discussion focused on your Armies moving North, and my
concerns about the Lepanto. EIT is not off the table at this point, but
I'm not going to leave myself wide open to a Lepanto stab by attacking
Russia in F1901M. Even if you Convoy Apu-Tun this Fall, EIT isn't
dead, but as long as your position threatens the Lepanto, I HAVE to
defend against it, rather than attacking Russia or Austria. I made the
moves for EIT this Spring, if you want EIT, then show it in your moves
this Fall.
> > Italian worst case again:
>
> That wasn't the worst case. In worst case there is hostile Austria!
Oh, come on, let's be realistic in our assessment here. If Austria
turns His back on RT to attack Italy, he's dead meat. The only times
I've ever seen it happen is when Italy stabs Austria in 1901.
> You are correct. We are both giving an image where Austria is on
> the other side. So we are both correct with our analysis. BUT it all
> depends on where Austria will turn.
I see, you opened as you did because you were afraid of the
dreaded AT alliance that you insisted I form, because you don't
want me to ally with Russia, even though RT is no threat to Italy
if I build Armies instead of Fleets. Does anyone else see a
disconnect here?
> I would have fallen in love with EIT if Turkey would be in Black Sea now.
> Then there would not have been a need to build that 2nd fleet. I have
> heard that it was prearranged bounce in Black Sea and that is not making
> my position more comfortable.
Yes, Adam wanted a Black Sea bounce. I tried to talk him out of
it, but couldn't convince him. The bounce in Gal was arranged, too,
does this mean your facing a rabid RAT?
> Now Turkey is thinking about to build another fleet _even if_ I move
> to Tunis with fleet. No, that would be as difficult for me as fleet in
> Ionian seems to be to you.
Read my note again, I mentioned the possiblity of building a 2nd
Fleet in Ankara, in order to force Bla next year. I didn't say I was
definitely going to do it, and it's something that has been on the table
from the beginning of our EIT discussions. If you want me to attack
Russia, then I have to take Bla, somehow. F Ank does not threaten
Italy. I would have to move Con-Aeg, Ank-Con, and then Aeg-EMed,
Con-Aeg to even be able to defend, and I'd still lack the third Fleet
that's needed to force Ion.
> My problem is that I will have to show my cards 1st and then you
> can make your decision.
Again, look at the Spring moves, my offer is already on the table.
> I'd like to turn it around. I will convoy to Tunis. I will be honest.
> Does my convoy to Tunis mean the end of EIT? If so I would like
> to ask why?
In absolute terms, no. In practical terms, probably. If you move
Apu-Ion-Tun, I'd have to assume that you'll build F Nap, and order
Ion-EMed, Nap-Ion, followed by Tun-Ion-EMed-Syr/Smy, so I'll
HAVE to build F Smy to defend against that. Then you would claim
my build is provacative, and things would just slide downhill from
there. I want EIT, but I'm not going to leave myself open to the
Lepanto to get it. I moved as you wanted this Spring. If you really
want the EIT Alliance, then I'd suggest that you move as Brent
suggested this Fall.
> My simple masterplan is to be honest with you. I want to see how
> Eric moves in fall. It would be intolerable that I cannot be in Ionian Sea
> now. Especially when we are both unsure of Austrian. C'mon how talkative
> has Austria been to you both? After you answer to that question then think
> about the fact that I am on _very_ different timezone with him. Think how
> much I can trust him.
I told you how I'd move this Spring, and I told you how I'll move
this Fall. Ank-Con, Bul HOLD, Arm-Syr. If you're going to hold the
Lepanto over my head, I HAVE to defend against it. An AI alliance is
the default position. Italy sometimes stabs Austria, but I've never seen
Austria stab Italy in the opening. You yourself claimed that you were
talking to Austria more than I was. You don't have to trust him to do
more than follow the standard Austrian plan of securing the Balkans,
and then attacking Russia or Turkey. For me to form an AT, on the
other hand, would require at least as much negotiation as we have
conducted. How likely is that?
> -Unlike Eric who is defending against a threat I am not defending or
> threatening anyone I am playing open here. If you think a convoy to
> Tunis is unreasonable then feel free to end ETI.
You're being honest about your moves, but you're saying nothing
about your intentions. How does the Convoy to Tunis advance the
EIT cause? What do you plan to do next year, and the year after?
(Assume for the moment that I'm gullible enough to order Ank-Bla,
Arm-Sev, Bul-Rum to take Bla and keep Russia out of Rumania.)
How does that Army in Tun contribute to your strategic plan?
F Tun can move to WMed, A Tun can't. F Tun can move to NAf,
and support WMed-MAO, A Tun can't. If you're going to attack
France, as the EIT game-plan calls for, it will take three turns to get
your Army to France if you convoy it to Tunis, and doing so will
occupy both your Fleets that turn. Sending Ion-Tun, Apu-Ven, gets
the Army to France a turn faster, and leaves the Fleets free to move
forward, or support an attack on Mar. Why are you Convoying to
Tunis? The only thing that I can see it accomplish is to set up (and hence
"threaten") the Lepanto. Please, Raine, show me where I'm
wrong in my assessment.
Eric the Target.
From - Thu Sep 20 16:34:26 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England and Italy in 'gutsy':
> Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Italy and Turkey in
'gutsy':
>
> how bad is it if you take the risk and the other person doesn't,
> versus not taking the risk at all. Lets say that Eric decides to attack
> Russia and Raine does go for the Lepanto. Eric responds by building a
> Southern fleet. There is no element of surprise, plus the real key is
> who Austria decides to side with.
The problem is, of course, that Austria sides with Italy and/or Russia
MUCH more often than Austria sides with Turkey. I defy either one of
you to find a Dip strategy article describing an AT alliance. With my
Fleets
split between Bla and Smy, I would be hard-pressed to defend against
a Lepanto even if Austria remains neutral.
> Reverse the roles, Raine moves the fleet to Tunis, and Eric goes for
> an RT.
And, if I build Armies, instead of Fleets, how is this bad for Italy in
any way? RT targets Austria, an AI Lepanto targets Turkey. There's a
VERY important distinction there.
I opened in accordance with the EIT Alliance, Raine opend with a
Lepanto. As I see it, for EIT to work, Raine has to acknowledge my
opening, accept that Italy is never Turkey's first target, and move
accordingly.
Eric.
From - Thu Sep 20 16:34:28 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England and Turkey in
'gutsy':
Dear Gentlemen,
Eric thanks for the prompt reply. We do need to discuss a lot to get this
ETI back on track.
> Yes, but I agreed to open to Bla and I opened to Arm, so my best
> shot against you is ALREADY gone, and yet you're talking about
> continuing with the Lepanto! It only seems fair that you should also
> give up your best shot at attacking me, (if you want to ally with me,)
> since I have already done so.
I am not talking about continuing Lepanto. I am talking about keeping my
options open while I hear talks about 'mistake moves' and while I see
those broadcasts. BTW, your best shot against me went with arranged bounce
in Black Sea not 'cause of me. I repeat I am not attacking you. I am
convoying to Tunis. That is not an attack against Turkey.
> No, what wasn't in the plan was Rom-Apu. Given that break
> with the plan, AND your silence, I HAD to try to smooth things
> over with Adam. As the saying goes, actions speak louder than
> words. My moves were an attack on Russia, according to our
> plan. Your moves are an attack on me, when the plan called for
> you to attack France.
There wasn't a solid plan for Italian troops. There was a discussion about
all out attack against France. As experienced player you have all the
mails in your folder show me the line where I promised _anything_ about my
moves. I agree that we talked about possibilities but I never, never
promised to move like you said. The truth is that I had no idea about my
moves until a few hours before the deadline.
> All of our discussion focused on your Armies moving North, and my
> concerns about the Lepanto. EIT is not off the table at this point, but
> I'm not going to leave myself wide open to a Lepanto stab by attacking
> Russia in F1901M. Even if you Convoy Apu-Tun this Fall, EIT isn't
> dead, but as long as your position threatens the Lepanto, I HAVE to
> defend against it, rather than attacking Russia or Austria. I made the
> moves for EIT this Spring, if you want EIT, then show it in your moves
> this Fall.
As I said, we talked about possibilities. I am sure we all understood
that. By sending my army in Tunis there is a threat BUT it doesn't mean I
attack against you!
> Oh, come on, let's be realistic in our assessment here. If Austria
> turns His back on RT to attack Italy, he's dead meat. The only times
> I've ever seen it happen is when Italy stabs Austria in 1901.
Austria can be hostile in AT while there ain't RT. Is that unrealistic?
> I see, you opened as you did because you were afraid of the
> dreaded AT alliance that you insisted I form,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What is this? I prefer AT over RT in ETI that is not insisting.
> Yes, Adam wanted a Black Sea bounce. I tried to talk him out of
> it, but couldn't convince him. The bounce in Gal was arranged, too,
> does this mean your facing a rabid RAT?
Ok, now we have some facts on the table. Agreed bounce in Black Sea.
I have no idea if Galician bounce was agreed. Let's try keep ETI together
and try to be constructive.
> Read my note again, I mentioned the possiblity of building a 2nd
> Fleet in Ankara, in order to force Bla next year. I didn't say I was
> definitely going to do it, and it's something that has been on the table
> from the beginning of our EIT discussions. If you want me to attack
> Russia, then I have to take Bla, somehow. F Ank does not threaten
> Italy. I would have to move Con-Aeg, Ank-Con, and then Aeg-EMed,
> Con-Aeg to even be able to defend, and I'd still lack the third Fleet
> that's needed to force Ion.
No need to reread. I said you are thinking, not that you are definately
going to do it.
> > I'd like to turn it around. I will convoy to Tunis. I will be honest.
> > Does my convoy to Tunis mean the end of EIT? If so I would like
> > to ask why?
>
> In absolute terms, no.
Good. Now we are on the track to EIT.
> In practical terms, probably. If you move
> Apu-Ion-Tun, I'd have to assume that you'll build F Nap, and order
> Ion-EMed, Nap-Ion, followed by Tun-Ion-EMed-Syr/Smy, so I'll
> HAVE to build F Smy to defend against that. Then you would claim
> my build is provacative, and things would just slide downhill from
> there. I want EIT, but I'm not going to leave myself open to the
> Lepanto to get it. I moved as you wanted this Spring. If you really
> want the EIT Alliance, then I'd suggest that you move as Brent
> suggested this Fall.
You are making a false assumption here. Apu-Ion-Tun is not a Lepanto. Your
2nd fleet is not strictly against me but there's no other way that west in
the end. Ok, we have 2 threats. We are both worried.
> Lepanto over my head, I HAVE to defend against it. An AI alliance is
> the default position.
Then TI war should also be default. In diplomacy there is nothing
prearranged. WE make the alliances and battles.
> Italy sometimes stabs Austria, but I've never seen
> Austria stab Italy in the opening. You yourself claimed that you were
> talking to Austria more than I was.
I have no idea how much you are talking to Austria. How could I? So, I
cannot have claimed anything like that.
> You don't have to trust him to do
> more than follow the standard Austrian plan of securing the Balkans,
> and then attacking Russia or Turkey. For me to form an AT, on the
> other hand, would require at least as much negotiation as we have
> conducted. How likely is that?
You are right. I agree it is difficult _just like_ AI is difficult in
those circumstances. Once again we are in the same postition.
> You're being honest about your moves, but you're saying nothing
> about your intentions. How does the Convoy to Tunis advance the
> EIT cause? What do you plan to do next year, and the year after?
When I see your fall moves I can tell you. So far I am open to go east,
north and west.
> (Assume for the moment that I'm gullible enough to order Ank-Bla,
> Arm-Sev, Bul-Rum to take Bla and keep Russia out of Rumania.)
Tell me Eric, you are way more experienced diplomacy player than I am, how
do you make allies in diplomacy games? Then tell me how would you react as
Italy when you would see Turkey moving like you say above?
Let's assume
Turkey: Arm-Sev,Bul-Rum and Ank-Bla
Italy : Ion C apu-ion-Tun
Would I be insane enough to NOT ally with Turkey in this case.
That is the way allies are made with trust, right? Now Turkey has showed
some commitment to ETI (should we call it TIE to be more formal ;-) and
no-one had done anything provocative.
> How does that Army in Tun contribute to your strategic plan?
It keeps doors open for me and it does not give France the signal that I
am going after him.
> F Tun can move to WMed, A Tun can't. F Tun can move to NAf,
> and support WMed-MAO, A Tun can't. If you're going to attack
> France, as the EIT game-plan calls for, it will take three turns to get
> your Army to France if you convoy it to Tunis, and doing so will
> occupy both your Fleets that turn. Sending Ion-Tun, Apu-Ven, gets
> the Army to France a turn faster, and leaves the Fleets free to move
> forward, or support an attack on Mar.
You are correct with all those statements above. I can attack France
better that way. The point is when I dare to make a full commitment in one
direction. I know Italy isn't the one who is making fast gains so I have
no problem to have 'wait and see who is reliable' -tactics.
> Why are you Convoying to
> Tunis? The only thing that I can see it accomplish is to set up (and hence
> "threaten") the Lepanto. Please, Raine, show me where I'm
> wrong in my assessment.
You have threat. You don't have anything else. I have a threat, nothing
more. After the next moves I know if there is something more. You already
know what I am going to do. Let's all be cool, forget the treats and try
to be constructive.
Raine
From - Thu Sep 20 16:34:31 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy and Turkey in 'gutsy':
Looks like my fears were right, it was too late. Both of you are now too
caught up in defending yourself from attacks that haven't even happened yet
for us to work together. Thats really too bad, for a short time I really
thought we had something going there. But while Raine is busy "keeping his
options open" and Eric is busy "defending himself", I'm now left without an
alliance. I wish I could say that I had hopes you guys could patch this up
in the future, but right now those hopes are fading fast. Since neither of
you is willing to make a risky move to show trust, the Spring turn will be
just like this one. Meanwhile Russia is going to be freed up to move in the
North, and no one is going to hold back France. While you guys are arguing
about the possibility of an enemy fleet on your doorstep, I've already got
one, and I need to find something to do about it.
I've been the biggest proponent of the alliance so far, so it is with
heavy heart that I must say unless you guys find a miraculous way to solve
this dilemma, I've got to start looking for some other friends that CAN help
me. I'm certainly not going to turn my back on either of you, but I can't
keep banking my whole strategy on an alliance that is going to hell in a
handbasket.
Brent
From - Thu Sep 20 16:34:57 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> 'R' rules! Gooo R's!!! Shaking Pom Poms vigorously ;-)
GO TEAM R! :-)
> I heard that Turkey is acting like it was a mistake move
> to Armenia.
That's what I heard as well. That sort of thing is hard to believe,
but you never know.
> I won't attack Austria if there is a chance of RT.
I suppose there's always a chance of RT. There's just no way of
knowing for sure this early in the game.
Rod
From - Thu Sep 20 16:34:59 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England and Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine and Brent,
>Message from Italy to England and Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>I am not talking about continuing Lepanto.
Yes, you are. Recipe for a Lepanto:
1) Nap-Ion, Rom-Apu
2) Apu-Ion-Tun
3) Build F Nap
4) Ion-EMed, Nap-Ion
5) Tun-Ion-EMed-Syr
You've completed step 1, and are committed to
step 2. You may say that 3, 4 and 5 aren't in the
pipeline, but your 1901 moves are a textbook
Tyrolian Lepanto.
>your best shot against me went with arranged bounce
>in Black Sea not 'cause of me.
No, I could have opened with a Turkish Hedgehog,
(Ank-Con, Smy-Arm, Con-Bul), then moved Con-Aeg
and built F Smy in F1901. That was my best shot
against you. I gave that up for the sake of the EIT
Alliance. Now I'm asking you to give up the Lepanto
for the same reason.
>show me the line where I promised _anything_ about my moves. I agree that
>we talked about possibilities but I never, never promised to move like you
>said.
I never claimed that you promised to move that
way, but I laid out two options that I felt would
be productive for EIT, and when you asked how I was
moving, I told you, (Smy-Ank was a typo for Smy-Arm,
BTW). It seems that I'm doing everything I can to
establish EIT, and you're refusing to limit your
options.
>my army in Tunis is a threat BUT it doesn't mean I
>attack against you!
No, but it's better positioned to attack me
than it is to attack France, and I can't afford to
ignore the threat of a Lepanto.
> > Yes, Adam wanted a Black Sea bounce. I tried > to talk him out of
>it, but couldn't convince him.
>
>Ok, now we have some facts on the table. Agreed bounce in Black Sea.
No, it was never agreed to. Adam wanted it,
I tried to talk him out of it, and I planned to try
again Monday morning, but moves processed before I
had the chance.
>I have no idea if Galician bounce was agreed.
Ask Adam, ask Keith, it shouldn't be hard to
confirm.
>I said you are thinking, not that you are definately
>going to do it.
And my thinking that I might need to build a 2nd
Fleet to force Bla is sufficient reason for you to
Convoy to Tun and refuse to DMZ Ion?
>You are making a false assumption here. Apu-Ion-Tun is not a Lepanto.
Yes, it is. Read any article on the Lepanto.
Is it possible that you might not carry it out? Yes.
Can I afford to assume that you won't? No.
>Your 2nd fleet is not strictly against me but there's no other way that
>west in the end. Ok, we have 2 threats. We are both worried.
Two Turkish Fleets cannot take Ion! You
can cover it before I can get there. There is,
therefore, no credible Turkish threat to Italy
until and unless I build a third Fleet. I'm
worried about a knife aimed at my back; you're
worried that I might someday make a knife.
> > An AI alliance is the default position.
>Then TI war should also be default.
No, Turkey can build Armies and not threaten
Italy at all, but I can't afford to do that, if the
Lepanto is forming.
> > You yourself claimed that you were
> > talking to Austria more than I was.
>
>I have no idea how much you are talking to Austria. How could I? So, I
>cannot have claimed anything like that.
I can provide the quote, if you'd like.
>AI is difficult in those circumstances. Once again we are in the same
>postition.
No, the AI alliance has a much higher level of
potential than AT does. Forming AT requires a lot
of work and communication, forming AI requires,
'Wanna Lepanto?', "Sure, let's."
>I am open to go east, north and west.
If you want an EIT alliance, east should not be
an option.
> Let's assume
> Turkey: Arm-Sev,Bul-Rum and Ank-Bla
> Italy : Ion C apu-ion-Tun
>
>Would I be insane enough to NOT ally with Turkey in this case.
Sure, you spring the Lepanto, and eliminate me
by 1904 or '05 with Russian and Austrian help. Then
you ally with Russia to eliminate Austria, and turn
against France with a high level of security in the
east.
>You have threat. I have a threat, nothing more. After the next moves I know
>if there is something more.
The difference, as I see it, is that you are
threatening to attack me, while I'm threatening to
defend myself. If you call off the attack
preperations,I still can't attack you, but if I
stop defending myself, I could be eliminated.
Brent, are you getting anything from Austria
suggesting whom he hopes/plans to ally with, or
attack?
Eric.
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:04 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to England and Italy in 'gutsy':
>Message from England to Italy and Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Looks like my fears were right, it was too late.
No, it's not too late. If Raine moves Ion-Tun
Apu-Ven/Rom, and I move Ank-Con, I pose no threat
to him. Even if I build F Smy, (and I would have
no reason to do so) my threat to Italy is still
insignificant unless I somehow gain support from
the silent Austrian.
>you are caught up in defending yourself from attacks that haven't even
>happened yet
Again the difference is that Italy has cocked the
gun, and is about to aim it at me, even if he has no
plans to pull the trigger, while I'm scrambling to
put on my bullet-resistant vest. I can't attack Italy
without three Fleets.
>I've got to start looking for some other friends that CAN help me.
I've said all along that you should be courting
Germany for all you're worth.
Eric.
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:06 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Yeah, even if he's committed to the Lepanto,
> AND sure of Keith, the silent treatment still
> doesn't make sense.
He's said the same thing to me as he just said in a
broadcast, that he's a massive geek and has just
got a new computer. It usually takes me a whole
day to set one up how I like it but it sounds like
an excuse to me. Does this make AI more probable?
I don't know. Just about everyone seems to be saying
that the A Tyr isn't really threatening Austria OR
Germany which would mean it's there as a ruse which
certainly makes AI look more probable.
> Yes, I'd say the odds favor a Sealion, even
> though EG could cooperate to limit France to one
> build, and be well positioned to hurt Rod next year.
I'll be interested to see what does transpire over there
since it will determine in short order exactly what
proportion of my troops need to head north. I'm hoping
form some involvement up there to be honest and it'll
be more difficult to build in StP or more north if
Germany and England end up allied. I need them to
be fighting so I can justify involvement as defending
one or the other.
> Yes, Russia might have four Units, but it also
> has three different fronts, so it's always a
> challenge.
I like the idea that's it's not really one country with
an extra unit but two countries with one less unit each.
> The conventional wisdom says send three
> Units South in the opening, and then build in the
> North or West as soon as you can afford to. While
> I'm not a slave to the conventional wisdom, in this
> case, I think it does make sense.
Conventional wisdom does tend to exist precicely because
it's generally right. My main worry would be that if
your move to Arm wasn't, in fact, a mistake then moving
to Gal and making yet another enemy out of Keith would
be a mistake for me. Keith definately doesn't want Russian
units in Gal this year. I guess if you're already attacking
me it's probably in league with Keith anyway though so
that bridge is already burned.
> I've changed to Bul S Ser, hoping that I can use
> the threat implied by IA Tyl to influence Keith,
Well, it's up to you what you do wiht A Bul but Bul S Ser
does nothing at all, surely? The only unit that CAN attack
Ser is your Bul unit and it would have to do so unsupported.
Supporting Alb to Gre would spread more distrust between
the two powers, or supporting Apu/Ion into Gre. MOVING
to Gre or Ser would have more effect than a useless
support I'd have imagined.
> and I'm toying with Arm-Syr to really make the
> Lepanto unattractive.
I prefer the unit in Syr to Arm but have no preference
between Ank and Syr. I always forget Syr is even there
to be honest, it's so rarely occupied.
> War-Gal probably makes the most sense, given Ven-Tyl. Tyl-Boh, with
> plans to move on to Sil next Spring is possible,
I talked about that possibility with Italy and he told me
that Keith had decided it wasn't a very good idea. Well,
the Boh part anyway, we didn't discuss what would happen
after that since he said that Boh wouldn't happen.
> especially considering the fact that Keith is
> still playing up the RT threat to Germany.
The RT scares everyone, it's Diplomacy's modern day bogy man.
You can use it to scare anybody who isn't Russia or Turkey
into doing what you want them to do. Moving to Gal would
probably convince everyone we were together but I suppose
that has to happen at some point anyway.
> War-Sil would annoy Germany, and confirm Keith's
> claims to him, while War-Gal allows you to build
> in War, and order Gal S War-Sil, next Spring if
> Italy orders Tyl-Boh this Fall.
Good point. Hard choices. I'm sending in my provisional
orders now and I'll include A War - Gal there since the only
real problem remaining is Keith's reaction to a unit of mine
in Gal but as I said, if you're after me then chances are
he's in on it I guess.
Adam..........
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:10 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> How do you feel about this ARI? I mean, I am ready to go for it. I just
> need to know if you and Russia share my enthuastic view.
I am all for it. Turkey will crumble quickly with the three of us
attacking. As you say, we have to work out the aftermath details, too.
I would think that you could go west, and I could go east without there
being any tension between us.
> If you support yourself to Greece then you will endup there. So it is up
> to you if you want to let Turkey to Aeg or not.
> Look:
> Italy Ion-Aeg
> Austria Gre s Ion-Aeg
> Turkey (in worst case i.e. after Con-ank and fleet built in Smy)
> Con S Smy-aeg or the other way around.
Right, I know that we can block him from Aeg. Eventually he will guess
wrong, and you will get into Eas or Aeg. Plus, he will need to guard
against Russia or try to keep Bulgaria even if Russia doesn't help him.
Austria
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:12 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
>Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>Just about everyone seems to be saying
>that the A Tyr isn't really threatening Austria OR
>Germany which would mean it's there as a ruse which
>certainly makes AI look more probable.
Well, it is a threat if it stays there, but
without Rom-Ven it's unlikely to mean a F'01 attack
on Austria.
> > I've changed to Bul S Ser, hoping that I can use
> > the threat implied by IA Tyl to influence Keith,
>
>Well, it's up to you what you do wiht A Bul but Bul S Ser
>does nothing at all, surely?
That's the point, actually. I can't stop Alb-Gre,
and don't want to stop Ukr-Rum, and don't really want
to encourage Italy to head East. (I'd much rather have
him attack France.) If there is an AI conflict brewing,
(and I've heard nothing to support that), I don't want
to explicitly favor either of them until and unless one
of them makes me an offer. So, the meaningless support
can be painted to Austria as an expression of friendship,
and to Italy as a meaningless gesture. *shrug*
>I prefer the unit in Syr to Arm but have no preference
>between Ank and Syr. I always forget Syr is even there
>to be honest, it's so rarely occupied.
Italy claims he's ordering Apu-Ion-Tun, so
Ank-Con, Arm-Syr are locked in.
> > War-Sil would annoy Germany, and confirm Keith's
> > claims to him, while War-Gal allows you to build
> > in War, and order Gal S War-Sil, next Spring if
> > Italy orders Tyl-Boh this Fall.
>
>Good point. Hard choices. I'm sending in my provisional
>orders now and I'll include A War - Gal there since the only
>real problem remaining is Keith's reaction to a unit of mine
>in Gal but as I said, if you're after me then chances are
>he's in on it I guess.
Honestly, I was hoping to convince you to go
with Sev HOLD, Ank-Con this Spring, and ordered Smy-Arm
as a way to cover my butt if you did order Sev-Bla, and
to be able to say, "No, there's no RT, I ordered
Smy-Arm!" The move prossessed before I could suggest
it to you again, and so the bounce order went thru. At
this point, with Raine loading up the Lepanto, I have
to defend myself, and will need your help against
Austria to avoid getting crushed. Arranging something
as unusal as AT requires a lot of discussion, and Keith
just hasn't sent enough press to make me even toy with
the idea.
Eric the Target. 8-)
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:14 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Should I assume that you are talking to everyone else but ignoring me,
and therefore I am the target, or are you just ignoring everyone? Or, do
you have some secret plan up your sleeve for which I am too great a
security risk to reveal?
Just curious,
Austria
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:15 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
>Should I assume that you are talking to everyone else but ignoring me,
>and therefore I am the target, or are you just ignoring everyone? Or, do
>you have some secret plan up your sleeve for which I am too great a
>security risk to reveal?
Sorry for the silence. My plan at this point
is to defend against the Lepanto, so the vast
majority of my press has been directed at Italy,
encouraging him to move Ion-Tun, rather than
Apu-Ion-Tun. I've failed miserably, however. 8-)
Given the threat from Italy, I can't afford to
attack Russia, this Fall, so there wasn't much
to coordinate with you. If you can keep Tri open,
and build a Fleet there, we could cooperate in
1902, though. Your stated intention to support
yourself into Gre, and the implication that you're
not worried about IA Tyl, suggested that there
wasn't much opportunity for me to influence you
this turn, so I spent the time I had, trying to
apply pressure and influence where it might do
me some good. Is there anything you'd like to
discuss?
Eric the Target. 8-)
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:17 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Sorry for the silence. My plan at this point
> is to defend against the Lepanto, so the vast
> majority of my press has been directed at Italy,
> encouraging him to move Ion-Tun, rather than
> Apu-Ion-Tun. I've failed miserably, however. 8-)
> Given the threat from Italy, I can't afford to
> attack Russia, this Fall, so there wasn't much
> to coordinate with you. If you can keep Tri open,
> and build a Fleet there, we could cooperate in
> 1902, though. Your stated intention to support
> yourself into Gre, and the implication that you're
> not worried about IA Tyl, suggested that there
> wasn't much opportunity for me to influence you
> this turn, so I spent the time I had, trying to
> apply pressure and influence where it might do
> me some good. Is there anything you'd like to
> discuss?
I'm just worried that we are headed down a disatrous course. Our being
worried about these things might become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I
can't take any action against Italy, or he against me, if you and Russia
continue to be allied. A fleet build for me would not be useful.
The first esential part of an Austria-Turkey alliance of course involves
Russia. I thought we had talked about this but for some reason you've
backed off this. We can talk more about it in the Spring, but once
builds come in things become more difficult to maneuver.
Austria
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:18 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>The esential part of an AT alliance involves Russia.
I opened against Russia.
>I thought we had talked about this but for some reason you've backed off
>this.
Given the threatened Lepanto, I don't see that
I have a choice, do you?
Eric.
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:21 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
Hey Rod,
It's been a while, so I thought I'd drop you
another line. How goes the Sealion? It looks as
though Italy bought into your "attack Turkey, he's
got the highest JDPR!" line, so I guess I'll be
going on the defensive at this point, but defense
is what the witches do best. Heard anything
interesting?
Eric the Target. 8-)
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:23 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
> How goes the Sealion?
The Spring went well. Of course, there's always the possibility of a
surprise in the Fall.
> I guess I'll be going on the defensive at this point
All you need is an ally or two. I'm sure someone with a high JDPR
like yours won't have any trouble making arrangements. ;-)
> Heard anything interesting?
Word on the street is Ser S Alb-Gre. What have you heard?
Rod
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:27 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> >The esential part of an AT alliance involves Russia.
>
> I opened against Russia.
Oh, I thought you said it was an accident.
> >I thought we had talked about this but for some reason you've backed off
> >this.
>
> Given the threatened Lepanto, I don't see that
> I have a choice, do you?
You are afraid of ghosts. Italy's attack on Turkey is rarely
successful. I don't think it is likely if you and Russia are not allied.
Austria
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:30 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> > >The essential part of an AT alliance involves Russia.
> >
> > I opened against Russia.
>
>Oh, I thought you said it was an accident.
Well, given Nap-Ion, Rom-Apu, I had to say that,
didn't I? ;^} Moves did process earlier than I
expected, and I did want to talk to Russia about not
bouncing in Bla, but if he had agreed, I can't really
say at this point whether I would have ordered Ank-Con,
or Ank-Bla, anyway.
>You are afraid of ghosts. Italy's attack on Turkey is rarely successful.
>I don't think it is likely if you and Russia are not allied.
The Lepanto is rarely successful because Turkey
defends against it. If I order Bul-Rum, Ank-Bla,
and Arm-Sev, and Italy orders Ion-EMed next Spring,
I'm faced with an RI alliance and a two-front war.
Neither one of us wants to see RI do we? I'm not
allying with Russia at this point, I'm pulling back
to make the Lepanto so unattractive that Italy HAS
to do something else.
Eric.
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:31 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
>Message from France to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Rod,
> > Heard anything interesting?
>
>Word on the street is Ser S Alb-Gre. What have you heard?
Apu-Ion-Tun, Nwg S Nth, Nth C Yor-Nwy, War-Sil,
Ser S Alb-Gre, Sev S Ukr-Rum.
Eric.
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:32 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> I'm faced with an RI alliance and a two-front war.
> Neither one of us wants to see RI do we?
No. The first damage would be against you, but I would likely be next,
once your teeth have been pulled.
I will be pressured into attacking you, and if you and Russia are not at
war, I really won't have the opportunity to say no. What do you think?
Austria
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:33 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
> Apu-Ion-Tun, Nwg S Nth, Nth C Yor-Nwy, War-Sil,
> Ser S Alb-Gre, Sev S Ukr-Rum.
Wow, that's pretty good intelligence! But what about A Tyl? My bet
is Tyl H.
Rod
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:35 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> > I'm faced with an RI alliance and a two-front war.
> > Neither one of us wants to see RI do we?
>
>No. The first damage would be against you, but I would likely be next,
>once your teeth have been pulled.
>
>I will be pressured into attacking you, and if you and Russia are not at
>war, I really won't have the opportunity to say no. What do you >think?
I think that if you want me to attack Russia,
you'd better convince Italy to abandon the Lepanto.
Eric.
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:36 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
I was thinking that a lot of our plans hinge upon getting Russia to
attack Turkey. I am guessing that Turkey will move Ank-Con, so we shoudl
try to get Russia to move Sev-Bla at all costs. I am wondering whether
it might be prudent for you to discuss a long-term I-R alliance with
him. This way he will feel as if you are on his side and, given this
long term strategy, he might be more willing to actually attack Turkey
now. What do you think?
Austria
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:37 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
We need cheerleaders to our team. I propose we choose Rose, Rachel and who
else how about Roxanne ;-)
Raine
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:38 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
Just wanted to let you know that all my info at this point suggests
that the assumptions about Munich and London being safe are correct.
Are we go for the plan as discussed, at least for this year? You
support Yor - Bel, I take Nwy with Nwg, and we each pick up two builds.
By the way evidence does seem to be mounting that the RT skirmish is
really just a sham and that this turn is going to see a rapid about
face. I don't know that its enough for you to bounce Russia out of
Sweden if you'd already agreed not to, but if you were on the fence
before, you may want to take that into consideration. Best of luck.
Brent
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:40 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Austria in 'gutsy':
You seem to be the man of the hour, just about every message I get
from the East talks about wanting to get you on board with some plan.
I've also heard rumors that the Turkish move to Armenia was just for
show and that there's really a pretty good relationship between R and T.
Thought that might be of use to you, though I can't give you any
guarantee on its truthfulness. Best of luck with your fall conquests.
Brent
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:43 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi, are you planning to hold Warsaw still? If so, is it okay to arrange
a bounce in Galacia again? Let me know. I won't order it unless I hear
from you.
Austria
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:44 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
> I am getting mail more that I expected due to move to Tyr :-)
I thought you would. That move really got people's attention. What have
you heard?
> That would be definetly against France. So if France would guess that it
> would hurt your relations with France but in the same time it would make
> your relations with England better.
> Now it is fall so I am not asking you to let me to Munich. That was in
> spring if we decide to something like that.
I'm glad to hear that. I'm quite willing to work out some sneaky move next
year against France. As long as I can leave Munich free this winter, I can
work with you quite well next year.
Also, I've been writing a lot to both France and England and have excellent
arrangements worked out with both. Now, I must decide. I, too, don't like
a strong France...so I leaning towards an EG myself, but I can't be sure
yet.
> -I am not 100% sure of east. Austria is too silent :-(
Yes, he has been. I've played with him before and he always is like that.
Don't worry about it too much, though. I have heard from more than one
person that Austria will support himself into Greece so you have a 50/50
chance at Vienna or Trieste if you want to try it.
> Could you give me your comment about two things:
> 1. RT alliance
> 2. AT alliance
Turkey claims his move to Armenia was a mistake. I suspect it might have
been and I also suspect that Russia is beginning to believe him as well.
However, I don't think we'll see RT develop right away. If it is coming, it
will still take a turn or two to get going.
As for AT, I don't think Austria is writing enough to form a solid alliance
with anyone, but we will start to know more next year. One thing I think we
will see is a Russian unit in Galicia. Austria might be in trouble, but I
could see him and Turkey jumping on Russia if Russia is at all weak.
Both AT have asked me to bounce in Sweden. Do you think that's a wise thing
for me to do?
Write soon.
- Steve
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:46 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
I agree with you about Turkish move Ank-Con. I have already told Russia
about that and asked if he got the guts to move to Bla and Rum. I am not
sure if he'll do it but he knows now how I feel.
> I am wondering whether
> it might be prudent for you to discuss a long-term I-R alliance with
> him. This way he will feel as if you are on his side and, given this
> long term strategy, he might be more willing to actually attack Turkey
> now. What do you think?
Well actually I have been talking to him that I am willing to attack with
ARI against T and when that is done I am heading west. I have told him
that I am not able (and not willing) to go against A after that due to my
desire of building fleets, it is true that I cannot hurt you with fleets
only. Russia has agreed to this. He wants to get rid of Turkey 1st. He has
been consistent with his talks about attacking Russia so I believe he will
do it. He has been talking about building north as much as possible. That
is a either good or bad. It can be RT or then he is willing to concentrate
on north while helping us to kill Turkey.
Have you agreed something about Galicia with Russia?
Raine
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:48 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Okay, good to hear about Russia.
> Have you agreed something about Galicia with Russia?
Yes, he has told me that he will not move there, and we will keep it empty.
Austria
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:49 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Thanks for the letter. I agree that both out assumptions are most likely
correct. I also agree that Ank-Arm was a mistake/ploy. This year will
truly be interesting. Even if RandT work out there issues, I don't think
the juggernaut will form *that* fast. Adam would have to be exceptionally
trusting.
I'm a little tight for time this afternoon, but I will write more in a
couple of hours. I haven't heard back from Raine from my last letter, so
I'm not yet fully confident about Munich. I hope to hear from him this
afternoon.
I hope that's okay with you. I'll be online kind of late tonight so I hope
to have a definitive answer later. Thanks for being patient while I work
this out. Nothing like having a home center threatened in '01...like you
need me to tell you that. :)
- Steve
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:51 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Hi, are you planning to hold Warsaw still? If so, is it okay to arrange
> a bounce in Galacia again? Let me know. I won't order it unless I hear
> from you.
A bounce is fine with me, probably be the best I could
hope for in fact. I've changed my order with this message.
Adam.......
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:52 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
I've been recieving more information that confirms our suspicion that
Turkey's move to Armenia was either a mistake or a planned ruse. Either
way it looks like the RT alliance could be on its way. I hope that we
will be able to move quicker than they (which should happen right, 2 on
1 vs. 2 on 2) so that the war is fought on their ground and not ours.
Then again, I've never actually seen an RT that lasted very long, so it
could be that all this is wild speculation. But if there were a game in
which very little would surprise me, its this one. Best of luck (to
both of us) in the Fall moves.
Brent
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:54 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> Either way it looks like the RT alliance could be on its way.
I think you're right.
> I hope that we will be able to move quicker than they
Italy told me that he also fears RT, so he won't stab Austria. That
should help. Whether that means he'll try for Mun, I don't know.
Rod
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:55 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> We need cheerleaders to our team.
Ooooh, good idea!
> I propose we choose Rose, Rachel and who else how about Roxanne ;-)
And Raquel! :-)
Rod
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:57 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
Please forgive me. My mistake. I forgot Raquel. She is absolutely
welcome to our cheerleader team. No, I insist we will take her in.
Once again my apologizes.
Raine
Ps. Do you want to know finnish girl names? Reija, Raija, Ritva, Raili,
Raila, Reila for example ;-)
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:58 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Okay, the bounce is arranged.
Austria
From - Thu Sep 20 16:35:59 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
Nice to hear from you. I hope we can keep up discussion more than in the
early days.
> I thought you would. That move really got people's attention. What have
> you heard?
People are mostly curious about my intensions.
> I'm glad to hear that. I'm quite willing to work out some sneaky move next
> year against France. As long as I can leave Munich free this winter, I can
> work with you quite well next year.
Do you want to arrange a bounce in Mun? I am ready for it if you ask.
> Also, I've been writing a lot to both France and England and have excellent
> arrangements worked out with both. Now, I must decide. I, too, don't like
> a strong France...so I leaning towards an EG myself, but I can't be sure
> yet.
I would like that. I must have told you about it before.
> Yes, he has been. I've played with him before and he always is like that.
> Don't worry about it too much, though. I have heard from more than one
> person that Austria will support himself into Greece so you have a 50/50
> chance at Vienna or Trieste if you want to try it.
I am not sure if I want to attack Austria. I would rather make a bounce in
Mun if you want me to.
> Turkey claims his move to Armenia was a mistake. I suspect it might have
> been and I also suspect that Russia is beginning to believe him as well.
How did you end up to this? I mean that russia might begin to believe the
mistake.
> As for AT, I don't think Austria is writing enough to form a solid alliance
> with anyone, but we will start to know more next year. One thing I think we
> will see is a Russian unit in Galicia. Austria might be in trouble, but I
> could see him and Turkey jumping on Russia if Russia is at all weak.
>
> Both AT have asked me to bounce in Sweden. Do you think that's a wise thing
> for me to do?
I wonder why AT both want a weak Russia? When Russia is not bordering me I
would be glad to see him in Sweden. You can make a friend there. I think
you are in good relations with Russia already. Usually if Russia is
getting hurt in south it is wise to give him space in north. So I would
let him to Sweden.
Raine
Ps. I will read my mails before the deadline so I am going to be aware of
your will according to Munich. I will of course move accordingly.
From - Thu Sep 20 16:36:01 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
>Message from as France to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> > Apu-Ion-Tun, Nwg S Nth, Nth C Yor-Nwy, War-Sil,
> > Ser S Alb-Gre, Sev S Ukr-Rum.
>
>Wow, that's pretty good intelligence!
Well, the info on R & E is shakey at best,
but it's what I hear.
>But what about A Tyl? My bet is Tyl H.
Not if Keith has been watching 'titleist', 8-)
but you're probably right.
Eric.
From - Thu Sep 20 16:36:02 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
It has been awhile since I heard from you. I hope everything is allright.
I would like to ask your opinion about Galicia. Have you agreed to keep it
empty with Austria? That would be wise. If you would move there I would be
very interested to hear the reasoning.
I have a strong believe now that Turkey will move Ank-Con. He is worried
about Lepanto. So I repeat that you have a shot to go to Black Sea. I
don't know about Armenia but quite amount of people are talking about
'mistake'. So to my knowledge you should have a good chance of moving both
to Rum and to Sev.
Raine
Ps. I haven't talked via press to RA, yet. I will soon.
From - Thu Sep 20 16:36:04 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria and Russia in
'gutsy':
Gentlemen Adam and Keith,
So far I have neglegted to speak to both of you together. Sorry about
that. Somehow I prefer to talk privately. I try to behave.
Here are my thoughts about current situation and important matters to RAI:
-Keep Galicia empty, please. That is an easy way to build trust and
goodwill.
-It seems to be common knowledge that Turkey is talking about mistake in
Armenia. So Adam, you might be able to make a gutsy move like Sev-Bla and
Ukr-Rum. I do believe that Turkey has his reasons to move against me :-)
Afterall he is talking about mistake and that the deadline came too early.
Maybe he thought I had set wait ;-)
-I have no idea what Eric is doing with his army in Bul. My guess is that
he is holding but you should know better. Maybe you could share your info
on that matter.
Your ally,
Raine
Ps. Could we name our alliance RAI? It comes from Radio Italy :-)
From - Thu Sep 20 16:36:05 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
> Reija, Raija, Ritva, Raili,
> Raila, Reila for example ;-)
Yes, Finnish cheerleaders are certainly welcome! :-)
Rod
From - Thu Sep 20 16:36:09 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
> It has been awhile since I heard from you. I hope everything is allright.
A little busy at work, they put a server live last
week before it was really ready so we're having to
try and optimize code that's already being hit so
hard the machine barely responds to a request at
the moment. Sorry if I've been slack in press.
> I would like to ask your opinion about Galicia. Have
> you agreed to keep it empty with Austria? That would be
> wise. If you would move there I would be very interested
> to hear the reasoning.
I've talked about Gal with Keith quite a lot and
we've come to agreement about it, it should stay
empty with any luck.
> I have a strong believe now that Turkey will
> move Ank-Con. He is worried about Lepanto. So I
> repeat that you have a shot to go to Black Sea.
> I don't know about Armenia but quite amount of
> people are talking about 'mistake'. So to my
> knowledge you should have a good chance of moving both
> to Rum and to Sev.
Rum and Bla.
This is what my orders are to do, though I was
planning on staying fairly quiet on it in case
of leaks. I think I can trust you but I wouldn't
mention anything to anyone else.
Adam.........
From - Thu Sep 20 16:36:11 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> Honestly, I was hoping to convince you to go
> with Sev HOLD, Ank-Con this Spring, and ordered Smy-Arm
> as a way to cover my butt if you did order Sev-Bla, and
> to be able to say, "No, there's no RT, I ordered
> Smy-Arm!" The move prossessed before I could suggest
> it to you again, and so the bounce order went thru.
I think this is probably the truth, it'd be a strange
move to make unilatterilly and everyone who's talked
about it (which is everyone in Europe I'm sure) has
been passing on the same story. There's always doubt
in Dip but I'm pretty sure you're right. I guess
mistakes even at this 'high' level are more common
than you'd think. England sent press to the wrong
power this year too!
> At this point, with Raine loading up the Lepanto, I have
> to defend myself, and will need your help against
> Austria to avoid getting crushed. Arranging something
> as unusal as AT requires a lot of discussion, and Keith
> just hasn't sent enough press to make me even toy with
> the idea.
Keith is mostly a nopress player. I'm not convinced
he makes the transition to full press all that well,
perhaps he's in too many games or something. I agree
that he can be hard to really talk with.
Anyway, I guess we'll talk again after the moves since
I'm off down the pub for the evening shorty. Good
luck!
Adam.........
From - Thu Sep 20 16:36:12 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
> My reports indicate the same thing, Germany is probably the weaker link in
> the FG alliance. We'll have to wait for the results to see if my efforts
> with him have been successful.
So he's at least saying that they have been then? That
gives some hope, I think everyone in this game realizes
that lies can be more of a pain than most newbies think.
> Since both of us clearly have other problems to worry about, I was hoping
> we could make an agreement not to make any Northern fleet builds. I will
> agree to refrain from building F Edi in exchange for your agreement not to
> build F StP(nc). Even an army build in StP would leave me awfully
> concerned, but including that would seem to make this agreement a bit
> one-sided, so I'll only ask for the fleet. I think our best chances right
> now are to maintain a solid friendship so that we can concentrate our full
> attention elsewhere. If there's anything else you can think of to aid this
> that hasn't already come up, please let me know.
Sounds like a good agreement, though of course there's
bound to be reasons we both want to build up there and
I don't think we should be banned from even talking about
the idea. With the right justification/reason/excuse I'm
sure we'll be able to deal. Heh.
Good luck with the moves, this will be the last press
I get to write unless someone's late.
Adam.........
From - Thu Sep 20 18:11:05 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Master in 'gutsy':
(By the way, the UK is in British Summer Time right
now so the deadline is 12:30 here. Isn't a spherical
world complicated?)
Notes on Russia's moves in 1901
--------------------------------
The spring moves were pretty conservative, I'd been
talking more to the West than the East and really
had no idea if I could trust anyone at all in the
East. So two arranged bounces, a simple move to Ukr
and head out toward Swe.
The move to Arm was a surprise but I've since
been convinced by Eric (and the others who he's
been giving the same story too) that it was a mistake.
Well. probably.
This makes the fall moves tricky. Given that I trust Eric
I have to decide whether to turn this half of the board
into AI Vs TR or AIR Vs T. Italy has said he won't be my
friend if I choose T you see. I've been wanting to try
the AIR vs T then RI crushes A plan for a while so...
So I choose to go after Turkey, even though I think he's
hoping for AI vs TR. I think this is the first time
I've felt a little bad about stabbing someone too.
Oh well. I'm heading into Bla, Rum and Swe.
Meanwhile I have another Aranged bounce in Gal which
will leave War able to head into Germany if things
are going well in the south or south if I need
reinforcements. Tempting to tell Italy about that
so that he can take Vie, but we want A's cooperation
for a while first really.
> Russia: Army Ukraine -> Rumania.
> Russia: Army Warsaw -> Galicia.
> Russia: Fleet Sevastopol -> Black Sea.
> Russia: Fleet Gulf of Bothnia -> Sweden.
The best that can happen: I get into Bla and Rum and
Swe, build in Sev and Mos. Italy and Austria and I
take apart Turkey pretty quickly while I prop up
whoever's loosing in the west while taking a center
or two there too. Ideally that'd be me going after
Germany for a couple to slow FG's sealion down but
it sounds like Germany might be about to switch
which makes things more akward. Italy and I then go
after Austria (since we'll have him surrounded at
that point) and I hit 18 some time shortly after that.
The worst that can happen: I get Bla but loose Sev.
I bounce with Bul in Rum and Den in Swe. Disband after
1901! It'd take a miricle to stay alive until 1903.
I think the odds are good that I'll end up with something
closer to the best than the worst here. The only worry
is that AI are really VERY good at this and have
coordinated their press to me and Italy such as to
make us give up our moves and believe they're against
each other. If they have managed to pull that off,
I'm doomed anyway, there'll be no breaking that alliance.
I feel good that my moves this fall are more provocative
than the conservative not-enough-press-so-far moves
I fell back on in the spring.
Adam..........
From - Thu Sep 20 21:54:01 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Are you on-line this evening? I haven't heard from you for a bit and I just
wanted to re-connect before orders are submitted.
Right now, I'm torn between two possibilities:
Option 1 (play it safe):
Den H
Kie - Hol
Ruh - Mun
Option 2 (Sealion):
Den - Nth
Kie - Den
Ruh - Hol
Raine and I have spoken a bit, but I'm not yet convinced that Munich is
safe; thus my hesitation. I'm leaning heavily to the Sealion but I need to
talk more to my Italian friend before I commit. Have you heard anything
helpful from him? Help me out here if you can.
In either case, I think London will be open so you have a backup if you
want. Call it an educated guess on my part. :)
Write if you're around. I'll let you know something more definitive before
I go to bed.
Thanks for your patience.
- Steve
From - Thu Sep 20 21:54:12 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
Thanks for your response. From now on, I think we will maintain a high
level of communication.
Because of the time-zone difference, I'm not sure how many letters we can
exchange before the deadline. I still have a couple of hours of press with
EF to work the triangle. So, right now, I would prefer it if Tyrolia holds.
If I change my mind, I will write you a note before I go to bed tonight. I
hope that is okay with you.
Also, here are my thoughts on the other issues you raised:
>> Turkey claims his move to Armenia was a mistake. I suspect it might have
>> been and I also suspect that Russia is beginning to believe him as well.
>
> How did you end up to this? I mean that russia might begin to believe the
> mistake.
Russia told me so himself. He also said he doesn't trust Turkey enough to
leave Sev open so I think it will take at least one season for an RT to form
if it does. Since Austria says he will support himself into Greece and
Turkey has told me he won't move to Rumania, I expect Russia will get two
builds (Sweden and Rumania).
> I wonder why AT both want a weak Russia? When Russia is not bordering
> me I would be glad to see him in Sweden. You can make a friend there. I
> think you are in good relations with Russia already. Usually if Russia is
> getting hurt in south it is wise to give him space in north.
You raise a very important question. I have never played in a game where
*both* A and T want a bounce in Sweden. Usually, one or the other is
working with Russia. Either they are not working together at all or they
are allied. No matter which is true, I would like to see a strong GIR.
Again, if I change my mind regarding Munich, I will let you know. You have
nothing to lose by ordering "Tyr H" this fall so please give me a couple of
hours to work it out with EF. I'll let you know if I want the bounce.
Thanks for your patience, Raine. I really am sorry we didn't speak more in
the beginning; I believe we are thinking alike right now.
I will write soon, but if you're online, please respond.
- Steve
From - Thu Sep 20 21:54:22 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
Brent,
Do you think I being unreasonably demanding here? I could understand
you objecting to an RT, but I don't see that the possibility of it justifies
Raine's
response. I'm struggling to remain calm and rational here, but I don't
understand Raine's objections to the point where I doubt he was ever doing
more than trying to set me up.
Wondering what more I could have done,
Eric.
From - Thu Sep 20 21:54:25 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Just a follow up. It might be a little long, so I've included an "Executive
Summary" at the end. Scroll down if you want to skip the small talk. :)
First off, I'd like to thank you for the way we've written to each other
this game. So far, most folks have been fairly chatty (good games tend to
be that way), but this game I've connected with more folks than usual.
Adam, Eric, and Rod have written a lot and I've recently re-connected with
Raine. Austria has been a bit silent (does he appear that way to you?), but
I think that's his style.
Secondly, I'd like to raise the question of "second-tier" allies. If we do
form an EG alliance, who should we work with next? I'm a little torn (the
game is so young), but it's not too early to consider such things. My
relationship with Adam is very good, but I am also chatting with Raine some
more...and I've always talked well with Eric. If we were to pretend for a
second that the game would end in a three way, who would you like to see as
the third?
At this point, it would be deceptive of me not to mention France since Rod
and I have talked so much from the game start. As I have said a couple of
times now, I want to resolve the EFG thing fairly quickly *and* IRT have
already suggest I work with you instead of Rod. Incidentally, Keith was the
lone dissenter. :)
The other thing I want to say is that I consider myself a fairly flexible
player. So, even if you cooperate with other folks against me in the early
game, it doesn't preclude us from working together later on. It will
probably piss me off for a while, but we'll get past that if we're both
worth our salt.
Write when you can, Brent. I'd like to talk some more if you're online
tonight.
Thanks.
- Steve
***===***===***===***
Executive Summary:
LOL. (Sometimes I just laugh at myself having this much fun with a silly
game. I hope you feel the same way.)
Bottom line, I will do one of two things this fall:
Option 1 (playing it safe):
Ruh - Mun
Kie - Hol
Den H
Option 2 (Immediate EG):
Ruh S Yor - Bel
Kie - Hol
Den H
I haven't yet decided which, but I recommend you take Norway and do the
convoy.
Your other option if *you* want to play it safe is to order:
Nth - Bel
Yor - Lon
Nwg - Nwy
But, you better let me know before bedtime tonight or I might miss the
chance to support you. Actually, unless Rod and I do Sealion, this might be
your safest bet.
From - Thu Sep 20 22:25:24 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
Just a last minute Good Luck wish from the Kaiser and his family. :)
Whatever you do, I'm sure we can work together in the future. Good luck.
- Steve
From - Thu Sep 20 22:25:30 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> Just a last minute Good Luck wish from the Kaiser and his family. :)
>
> Whatever you do, I'm sure we can work together in the future. Good luck.
I'm relieved that you think I have a future... ;^} My moves are in,
though
I still have no idea when they'll process. It will be interesting to see
what
Raine and Adam do.
The Target Man.
From - Thu Sep 20 22:25:33 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
I don't think you're being unreasonable. Between the two of you, I think
Rinae is being a bit more unreasonable in wanting to be able to "Keep his
options open". But I do think the moves you've suggested are overkill for
what you claim to be trying to accomplish. I don't think Italy is that much
of a threat that you need to give up the great position you could have on
Russia.
And like I said before, I think the real problem is not that either of you
are being really unreasonable, its just that neither of you are willing to
take a chance and say "I trust that he's with me, no matter what his moves
might look like". If even one of you could do that, I think the other would
be convinced and join up. Oh well, I still have hopes. And don't worry, I
have been negotiating quite strenuously with Germany. Hopefully the results
will be what I'm looking for...
Brent
From - Thu Sep 20 22:25:35 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
I'm here, and will be for the next 2-3 hours, so feel free to write more.
Its good to hear that I have the support of the East, I've been working just
as hard to negotiate with them as I have with you, so I've definitely been
thinking long term. Your question about a third is a good one, and I'm
interested to hear your opinion as well. Right now, if I had to pick solely
on personality, I'd go with Eric. While I'm not entirely happy about some
of the decisions he seems to be making, I think he's connected well and has
been pretty open in disagreeing, which is always hard for people to do.
Tactically, he makes sens too, as he's far enough away to leave us both with
good targets, and is not in as dangerous a position as say Adam is when it
comes to solo potential.
[Sometimes I just laugh at myself having this much fun with a silly
game. I hope you feel the same way]
Oh god, yes. I love this game, and sometimes it really makes me laugh.
Of course, it also makes me frustrated, angry, sad, and everything else.
But even when I'm losing its just so much fun, especially when you've got
people who can stay in good humor even when you're fighting them. I'm
hoping there are some of those here, but I guess we'll find out soon enough.
For what its worth, I've never gotten a concrete response from Italy of
what he plans to do with Tyrolia, but hes never once mentioned going for
Munich. I can also vouch for quite a bit of tension existing between him
and Eric, so I can't imagine him picking a fight on the land right now. I
can't even guarantee that the support will be successful, as Rod could
easily support himself into Belgium, but I know it would put us in a lot
stronger position if it does. I don't want you to lose Munich though, so
the final call is yours. Like I said, I'll be around.
Brent
From - Fri Sep 21 05:23:41 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> It will be interesting to see what
> Raine and Adam do.
Oh, but not Keith. :)
For my part, I think everyone's moves will be pretty interesting. Oh yeah,
if you have anything that would help me figure out this EFG (and I) mess, I
would appreciate it. I'm about to break out my Oiuji board:
***===***===***
(burning incense clouds the room, eyes sting, a low chant reverberates off
the stone walls deep within a Munchen dungeon)
"Oh mighty Oiuji, I call on your fearsome power, please lead the way to
Germanic Victory!"
(acolytes groan and cheer in succession alternating
slowly...Unnnhhh...Yeeeaaah...Unnnnhhh...Yeeeaaah...)
Seconds pass then suddenly, the Kaiser's sweaty hands pause, the Oiuji
settles...but the message from beyond is far from clear. The Kaiser's rage
builds, his monacle barely steady in his one remaining socket: "Damn it
all!...E or F? I cannot tell!"
***===***===***
LOL. Talk to you later.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 21 05:23:42 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England and Italy in 'gutsy':
> Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> I do think the moves you've suggested are overkill for what you claim
> to be trying to accomplish. I don't think Italy is that much of a threat
> that you need to give up the great position you could have on Russia.
I have to assume that if Italy pulls the trigger on the Lepanto,
Austria,
and/or Russia will join in, and over the course of two to four years, I'll
be eliminated. Therefore, I have to do what I can to change that equation,
now. Ank-Con, Arm-Syr, B F Smy makes the Lepanto nearly impossible
to execute, and pulling back that way stands a good chance of restoring
my good relations with Russia, so that he can keep Austria occupied. My
hope was that Raine would see that my moves make the Lepanto pointless,
and he would close out the "Eastern option" for 1902, which would allow
me to shift North again, but that doesn't seem to have happened.
> And like I said before, I think the real problem is not that either of
you
> are being really unreasonable, its just that neither of you are willing to
> take a chance and say "I trust that he's with me, no matter what his moves
> might look like". If even one of you could do that, I think the other
would
> be convinced and join up. Oh well, I still have hopes.
The problem I have with that is that if I trust that he's with me, and
attack
Russia, and he's actually NOT with me, I end up with an Italian Fleet in
EMed or Aeg, and I'll face an RI alliance. If he moves Ion-Tun, on the
other hand, and I'm not with him, he can still move Tun-Ion and then order
Nap S Ion to stalemate me before I do any damage to him. So, he has less
to lose by trusting me, than I do by trusting him.
Eric.
From - Fri Sep 21 05:23:44 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Good to hear you're on-line at this hour. I think Eric is out there, too,
but I imagine Raine and Adam are asleep by now.
Since you might response quickly, I'm going to be brief. Regarding Raine:
> I can also vouch for quite a bit of tension existing between him
> and Eric, so I can't imagine him picking a fight on the land right now.
Can you tell me more, what makes you think there are tensions?
Write if you're there. Our relationship with Italy is foremost in my mind
right now.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 21 05:23:46 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
I have been trying since the beginning, and especially since the Spring
results to get Raine to go for a Western attack on France. He seemed to go
for the idea at first, but his moves were pretty neutral. Since then he has
expressed a great concern over an RT alliance, thinking that Eric's move to
Armenia was faked. He has used this as an excuse (valid or not) to hold
back from commiting to the West. Last I heard, he was planning to continue
with the standard Lepanto set of moves, convoying his army to Tunis. I've
been pushing for a fleet move to Tunis that would then give him better
position to attack France, but have had no luck as far as I can tell. And
from the other end, Eric has expressed an almost equal amount of concern for
the apparent Lepanto opening. Thats about as much as I know at this point.
Brent
From - Fri Sep 21 05:23:47 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Lepanto, eh? That's good to hear and it makes sense that he would say that.
Whether or not he will really build F Nap and take the Eastern Med I'm not
sure. Offhand I kind of doubt it, but he gets to see ART develop before he
decides.
Raine strikes me as an experienced player and the Lepanto is fool's gold at
best. His move of Ven - Tyr makes me think he is one of the most dangerous
players on the board, especially with him leaving Venice open. That set of
orders takes a certain degree of confidence *and* a willingness to take
risks. (Remember that it was a Scandinavian player that created "Fasta,
Fasta".)
You understand my caution, right? :)
BTW, is Rod as good as everyone seems to think? He's been direct yet subtle
with me, but nothing *that* impressive.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 21 05:23:49 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
We probably won't have the chance to talk before the moves are resolved, but
I'd like to wish you the best of luck.
That's about it. Write when F'01 is in the books. Whatever you choose to
do, there will be lots of chances for us to work together in a year's time
or so.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 21 05:23:52 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Good luck with your moves. I wish I knew what Tyrolia was up to and I wish
I had a better handle on the RT situation, but I don't. I guess I'm not as
good as I thought I was. :)
Talk to you later; I'll write when the moves are in.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 21 05:23:53 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
[Whether or not he will really build F Nap and take the Eastern Med I'm not
sure.]
Well, my best guess is that he wasn't planning on it, but that if Russia
and Turkey were to act in a way that suggested they were clsely aligned, he
might feel compelled.
[Raine strikes me as an experienced player and the Lepanto is fool's gold at
best. His move of Ven - Tyr makes me think he is one of the most dangerous
players on the board, especially with him leaving Venice open. ]
Personally Raine hasn't come across to me as any more skilled than the
rest. The move to Tyrolia was an interesting one though, he quite
purposefully thrust himself into the middle of negotiations with everyone.
Like you said, that takes some guts.
[BTW, is Rod as good as everyone seems to think? He's been direct yet
subtle
with me, but nothing *that* impressive.]
Well, I don't know anything about Rod outside of this game. And within
this game he has been persistent, and persuasive, but I don't consider him
to be way out in front of any of the others. Its just too early for me at
least to pick out who the real "threats" are, and in a game like this, I
think there's probably 6 of them!
Brent
From - Fri Sep 21 05:23:54 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> > It will be interesting to see what Raine and Adam do.
>
> Oh, but not Keith. :)
Keith will take Greece, I know this. Raine and Adam have choices
to make.
> For my part, I think everyone's moves will be pretty interesting. Oh
yeah,
> if you have anything that would help me figure out this EFG (and I) mess,
I
> would appreciate it. I'm about to break out my Oiuji board:
If you save England's bacon, you could probably get some decent
concessions from him. Rod thinks Raine will order Tyl HOLD, and he
could be right, though Keith should raise a major stink if he does. Ah
well, I'm off to bed. hopefully the results will be waiting for me in the
morning.
Eric.
From - Fri Sep 21 05:23:55 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
> Its just too early for me at least to pick out who the real "threats" are,
> and in a game like this, I think there's probably 6 of them!
Yep, six on one; that's the way the game is played. :)
Well, I'm getting ready for bed and I haven't heard anything definitive from
Italy, so I must say that I cannot in good faith promise you support into
Belgium. I hope you understand, Brent.
Raine is a few time-zones ahead and I might still hear from him before the
adjudication (I'm an early riser), so Yor - Nth - Bel might still work.
Your call right now; if you trust Rod with London, I'd say go for it. Sorry
I can't commit more.
Talk to you tomorrow I'm sure.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 21 05:23:56 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Thanks Eric, I have no clue if my orders will work out well for me or not,
but I'm off to bed too.
Talk to you later. Thanks for listening.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 21 05:23:59 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
Just a note before I hit the hay. If we don't connect before the moves are
resolved, I'll understand. Right now, I've submitted Sealion orders
assuming Raine says something nice by tomorrow morning. I haven't heard
from him yet, but I'm optimistic.
If you have some late-breaking news I *must* know, write when you can. I
get up pretty early and can easily adjust my orders.
Good luck, Rod, I look forward to talk more once '01 is in the books.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 21 05:24:00 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
Okay, I've decided to cover Munich. Feel free to bounce.
I hope to talk more once the results are in.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 21 05:24:01 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> Good luck with your moves. I wish I knew what Tyrolia was up to and I wish
> I had a better handle on the RT situation, but I don't. I guess I'm not as
> good as I thought I was. :)
I don't know what Italy is going to do with his army in Tyrolia. I am
fairly certain that he is not going to attack me with it. I told him I
would be most happy with it somewhere other than Tyrolia, so I am
guessing he will move it.
I don't think it would be a good idea for him to move to Munich, but I
can't rule it out. He has not mentioned anything about it.
As far as Russia and Turkey, I think that Turkey is going to be hostile
to me. He doesn't seem very interested in negotiating. I don't know if
this extends to Russia or not, but I've had better luck communicating
with him.
Austria
From - Fri Sep 21 05:24:02 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> I think that if you want me to attack Russia,
> you'd better convince Italy to abandon the Lepanto.
Any suggestions? I can imagine an AT alliance, or even IT, but AIT?
Austria
From - Fri Sep 21 05:24:03 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to England in 'gutsy':
> You seem to be the man of the hour, just about every message I get
> from the East talks about wanting to get you on board with some plan.
Really? I wish I was getting those messages. Turkey doesn't seem to
have such a plan, though I've had better luck communicating with Russia
and Italy.
> I've also heard rumors that the Turkish move to Armenia was just for
> show and that there's really a pretty good relationship between R and T.
> Thought that might be of use to you, though I can't give you any
> guarantee on its truthfulness. Best of luck with your fall conquests.
Yes, I imagine Turkey will pull back. I'm still somewhat uncertain of
Russia's intentions.
Austria
From - Fri Sep 21 05:24:05 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Good to hear that you're OK. I got used to talkative Russia and don't want
to change that :-)
> the moment. Sorry if I've been slack in press.
No need to feel sorry that's life. BTW do you like Dilbert?
> I've talked about Gal with Keith quite a lot and
> we've come to agreement about it, it should stay
> empty with any luck.
'with any luck', oh man, I don't understand. I mean, here I should read
between the lines and I am not capable. I hope you are still working
together. It would be pain if you two would start fighting now.
> Rum and Bla.
>
> This is what my orders are to do, though I was
> planning on staying fairly quiet on it in case
> of leaks. I think I can trust you but I wouldn't
> mention anything to anyone else.
You can trust me for sure. I have only to things to lose if I start to
make troubles with you.
Steve said that he would be willing to have a GIR alliance. How do you see
that option? It is too late for this season but I wonder if he is serious
or is he only bluffing that he is friendly?
Some people are trying to warn me about friendly RT. That is weird. I hope
you can convince me that those talks are lies.
Raine
Ps. I would love to talk before the deadline with you. Turkey is mad to me
'cause I am not heading west. Turkey is going to defend against
Lepanto. That is what he is saying to me. He claims to move to Syr! and
Con to prevent Lepanto.
From - Fri Sep 21 05:24:06 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
I cannot express my feelings but I am so happy about our communication.
> You raise a very important question. I have never played in a game where
> *both* A and T want a bounce in Sweden. Usually, one or the other is
> working with Russia. Either they are not working together at all or they
> are allied. No matter which is true, I would like to see a strong GIR.
GR are both away from my borders so I am willing to see strong GR and I
hope it means weaker FAT. GIR co-operation is another thing. We need to
talk about what we can achieve with it.
> Thanks for your patience, Raine. I really am sorry we didn't speak more in
> the beginning; I believe we are thinking alike right now.
I am just happy to realize that there is one more good diplomat in this
game :-) It takes two to have a discussion so I am really sorry for the
lack of press in the beginnig too. I can see that we are making a change
now.
> I will write soon, but if you're online, please respond.
I needed to sleep :-(
Now down to very important point my army in Tyrolia.
You told that you want to keep Munich open. At 1st you wanted Tyr hold.
Then you said I am free to bounce in Mun 'cause you are moving there.
Now I don't know what is the right thing for me to do.
-Others will think (at least for awhile) that IG are in war if I move to
Mun. I am not sure what you _really_ want. Would you prefer a bounce in
there and am I disappointing you if Munich is not left open 'cause I don't
move there.
-I would like to stay in Tyrolia. I was about to move to Bohemia in case
of RT. I was about to tease Austria in case of AT.
-Now I feel that there ain't enough proof of RT or AT. I certainly don't
want to do any foolish and anger someone with no reason.
-I would like to do something else that hold. Austria might take it as a
unfriedly move to hold in there.
I am confused.
Pros:
-It gives us both a diplomatic weapon.
-Munich is left empty.
-Tyrolia is not holding.
-I got nothing better to do.
-if we are going to do the 'trick' later it is more confusing to France.
I mean if we now bounce and if we later make Tyr-Mun followed with
dislodging it.
Cons:
-Am I evil? Do you really want me there?
-I am not sure how desperately you want Munich to be left empty.
-Do you think I intented to move there anyway and now I have a reason?
(no I wouldn't move there without a deal with you)
I will move to Munich.
Raine
Ps. I hope you can read this before the deadline.
From - Fri Sep 21 05:24:08 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England and Turkey in
'gutsy':
Dear Gentlemen,
I feel so bad for the English situation. I am so sorry to let you down
Brent.
I feel like the worst diplomacy player ever. I have managed to worry my
allies as Italy by moving like so may Italian have moved before. I also am
telling to you what I am going to do but nevertheless I feel like
criminal.
Eric, I understand your point. I cannot convince you about my good will.
That is way beyond my skills. I was naive to believe that you would be the
one who is making the 1st step to resolve the situation. I thought you'll
give me a 'sign' with your F1901M moves that you are serious. I thought
that Italy cannot be a threat in 1901 as it is especially as it is the
worst country in this game and Turkey is 2nd best after France. It seems
that I was so wrong. My apologies.
I guess there is no turning back. I still wish for friendly moves by Eric
and I hope you see my moves as neutral ones. I can tell you that I have no
solid plan at the moment. That is why I tried to keep my options open.
Like I said, I am sad to disappoint you Brent. I am responsible for this.
I'm sorry.
Yours,
Raine
From - Fri Sep 21 05:24:09 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1901M Fri Sep 21 2001 23:30:00 +1200
Movement results for Fall of 1901. (gutsy.002)
Austria: Army Serbia SUPPORT Fleet Albania -> Greece.
Austria: Army Vienna -> Galicia. (*bounce*)
Austria: Fleet Albania -> Greece.
England: Army Yorkshire -> North Sea -> Belgium. (*bounce*)
England: Fleet Norwegian Sea -> Norway.
England: Fleet North Sea CONVOY Army Yorkshire -> Belgium.
France: Army Spain -> Portugal.
France: Army Picardy -> Belgium. (*bounce*)
France: Fleet English Channel -> London.
Germany: Army Kiel -> Holland.
Germany: Army Ruhr -> Munich. (*bounce*)
Germany: Fleet Denmark HOLD.
Italy: Army Apulia -> Ionian Sea -> Tunis.
Italy: Army Tyrolia -> Munich. (*bounce*)
Italy: Fleet Ionian Sea CONVOY Army Apulia -> Tunis.
Russia: Army Ukraine -> Rumania.
Russia: Army Warsaw -> Galicia. (*bounce*)
Russia: Fleet Sevastopol -> Black Sea.
Russia: Fleet Gulf of Bothnia -> Sweden.
Turkey: Army Bulgaria SUPPORT Austrian Army Serbia.
Turkey: Army Armenia -> Syria.
Turkey: Fleet Ankara -> Constantinople.
Ownership of supply centers:
Austria: Budapest, Greece, Serbia, Trieste, Vienna.
England: Edinburgh, Liverpool, Norway.
France: Brest, London, Marseilles, Paris, Portugal.
Germany: Berlin, Denmark, Holland, Kiel, Munich.
Italy: Naples, Rome, Tunis, Venice.
Russia: Moscow, Rumania, Sevastopol, St Petersburg, Sweden, Warsaw.
Turkey: Ankara, Bulgaria, Constantinople, Smyrna.
Unowned: Belgium, Spain.
Austria: 5 Supply centers, 3 Units: Builds 2 units.
England: 3 Supply centers, 3 Units: Builds 0 units.
France: 5 Supply centers, 3 Units: Builds 2 units.
Germany: 5 Supply centers, 3 Units: Builds 2 units.
Italy: 4 Supply centers, 3 Units: Builds 1 unit.
Russia: 6 Supply centers, 4 Units: Builds 2 units.
Turkey: 4 Supply centers, 3 Units: Builds 1 unit.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Adjustments for Winter of 1901.
The deadline for orders will be Sat Sep 22 2001 18:20:23 +1200.
From - Fri Sep 21 05:24:11 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
As I said before, I showed my good will with my S1901 Moves, and
I think it's your turn to do so, now. IT is an unusual alliance, and
Italy's
standard moves are not compatible with it. from a Turkish perspective.
With Russia moving to Bla, I'll have to choose the threat I'm going to
defend against, but you could make that choice much easier by agreeing
to build in Ven, or Rom, rather than the standard F Nap. It's still not
too late for IT to work, but I will continue to defend against the Lepanto,
if you continue to follow the recipe for it.
Sincerely,
Eric.
From - Fri Sep 21 05:24:13 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to England in 'gutsy':
Brent,
Ouch! I take it Steve offered to support you into Belgium, and then
reneged? I, on the other hand am facing a Lepanto, and a Russia Fleet
in the Bla Sea. I wonder who declared the "witch hunt"? 8-) Sorry
about that.
Eric.
From - Fri Sep 21 05:24:12 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Russia in 'gutsy':
Adam,
> Russia: Army Warsaw -> Galicia. (*bounce*)
> Russia: Fleet Sevastopol -> Black Sea.
Might I suggest that you pick up a copy of, "How to Win Friends,
and Influence People", ;^}
> France: Fleet English Channel -> London.
Ick, that's not good. I guess Germany's builds will tell us which
way he's leaning, but F StP/NC would probably be a good idea,
to either delay England's collapse, or to get a couple of his Centers.
I will be watching your builds with interest. 8-)
Eric.
From - Fri Sep 21 05:24:14 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Russia: Army Warsaw -> Galicia. (*bounce*)
> Russia: Fleet Sevastopol -> Black Sea.
Hmmm, I think Adam should pick up a copy of, "How to Win
Friends, and Influence People", ;^} Or was the bounce in Gal agreed
upon again? I'm more than open to any ideas you might have regarding
an AT alliance.
Eric the Turk.
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:19 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Italy in 'gutsy':
Raine,
> > the moment. Sorry if I've been slack in press.
>
> No need to feel sorry that's life. BTW do you like Dilbert?
Yeah, well, I read it most mornings but it's no
Far Side.
> 'with any luck', oh man, I don't understand. I mean, here I should read
> between the lines and I am not capable. I hope you are still working
> together. It would be pain if you two would start fighting now.
I was being a little tight lipped there, sorry. We'd arranged
another bounce which is the easiest way to do everything
safely but I didn't want to make that too obvious in case
it effected your A Tyr's move. It didn't seem likely that
you'd take Tri if you knew with more certaintly that it'd
be open but I didn't see much point in taking the risk.
> Steve said that he would be willing to have a GIR alliance. How do you see
> that option? It is too late for this season but I wonder if he is serious
> or is he only bluffing that he is friendly?
I'd have liked to see his moves showing his aligence a little
more closely. I suspect he's aligned more with France than
England though which would make him an ideal mouse for my
northern cat to play with if I'm trying to prop up England
and make sure the Western Tripple doesn't resolve too quickly
for us. I think he was only suggesting that to try and make
sure you didn't go for Munich. I assume your bounce there
wasn't arranged?
> Some people are trying to warn me about friendly RT. That is weird. I hope
> you can convince me that those talks are lies.
Hopefully my moves just now did that for you? I was being quite
friendly with Eric in press and I guess that was bound to leak
out a little. He wanted my cooperation to help stop the AI he
could see Lepanto'ing him. I'm glad to oblige if it means I
can take Bla!
> Ps. I would love to talk before the deadline with you.
For future reference, if Wait it set you might just be able
to get a reply a few minutes to an hour before the deadline
if the deadline is on a Mon, Tue, Thur, Fri. I start work
around ten thirty or eleven and can get enough cleared to
write press about now. I guess nobody set wait again though.
It's nice to have moves going through early rather than
having to wait for late players.
> Turkey is mad to me
> 'cause I am not heading west. Turkey is going to defend against
> Lepanto. That is what he is saying to me. He claims to move to Syr! and
> Con to prevent Lepanto.
This is what he was saying to me too, but I suspect he'll be
looking for something else to try and do now that he's seen
me take advantage and move to Bla. I have a short note from
him already, I don't think he's too pleased. I guess I'll
have to build F Sev, we'll see if Eric builds F Ank or F
Smy. I wonder who he thinks is the bigger threat? Especially
since you tried to go north just now!
Adam............
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:23 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
> France: Fleet English Channel -> London.
Ouch, that's not good. I suppose that Germany didn't
support him into Nth at least, but you had to know that
Bel would bounce, why not bounce Bel with the fleet
and cover London? Or did Germany promise support? I bet
he did. If he promised the support then I guess we can be sure
we're looking at GF and that you're in quite a lot
of hot water now.
Luckily, I managed to get two builds and a considerable
reversal of fortune in the south here so I might be
able to spare a unit or two to head north. I'll need to
build in Sev, but the other build is untaken. Is there
anything you'd like me to do. I can't make any promises
at this stage but it can only help to know your
wishes.
Adam.........
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:27 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
Well, that seems to have gone fairly well. It's definately
time for us to talk about our plans in more detail. Since
I have been fairly bold and moved into Bla I need to know
how useful another Russian fleet will be in the south,
and indeed if that is likely to worry you at all. I think
that the build would prove very useful and once my center
in Turkey is claimed an army in Rum combined with F Bla
and F Ank should be strong enough to hold my centers
while also being weak enough to pose little threat
to my allies in the area.
We have yet to see where Eric will build. If I had
not moved to Bla I'm sure it would have been F Smy,
but there's a good chance of F Ank now as well.
If he were to build F Ank it would help yours and
Raine's Lepanto style attack no end (Aeg or Smy
would be yours for the taking) but without F Ank
there would be problems for me keeping my borders
secure.
Overall I think F Sev is the best build I can make,
but I also think that consulting my allies is very
useful. I have put F Sev in as a provisional build
but have also set wait until I hear your response.
The FG looks like it's going ahead. Germany must have
promised England support into Bel but not delivered.
I suspect that A War will need to move on Germany next
year, followed by either A Mos or perhaps a fleet in StP,
depending on England's reception of the idea. The last
thing we need is England being eliminated before we're
quite ready.
Adam..........
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:32 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
Well, at least now I know where I stand.
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:37 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
Well, that was certainly an unfortunate turn of events. I suppose I
should've taken your advice and gone for the safer moves, but I didn't think
Rod would be quite so bold. Your instincts served you well in defending
Munich, again, I am surprised that an experienced player like Raine would
make an attack that is pretty widely considered a dead end and only good for
losing you an ally. It will be interesting to see how things proceed from
here. On the one hand, Rod knows he has the upper hand. On the other hand,
he doesn't have any clear sign of your commitment to him, and he knows he's
now in the strongest position on the board, not a good place to be in Spring
1902.
You also are in an interesting position, in that you still haven't
revealed your loyalty to myself or Rod. The question now is what did he
tell you about London? Did he avoid the subject, or did he just flat out
lie (or did he tell you)? The answer should be key to discovering who your
true friends are. If it makes any difference, he'd told me that he was
going to support my convoy to Belgium as well. I wasn't very certain of
him, which is why I kept harping on you for your support. I suspect he
helped convince Raine to move to Munich for the precise reason that he knew
that was the best way to keep me from getting supported in. So he's been
playing both ends all along. Add to that the fact that I obviously need
your help a lot more right now, and its not too hard to figure out which
"friend" is going to be more loyal to you.
I'm going to be around during the day today but then gone all weekend.
I'll ask for an extension to the Spring 02 turn so that I can get in some
diplomatic time then, but I'd love to hear from you today about your
thoughts for the future.
Brent
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:39 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy and Turkey in 'gutsy':
All it takes is a look at the build count to see that we are about to
throw away what should be an obvious alliance. To answer your questions,
yes, Steve had been planning to support me into Belgium. He pulled out
because of Raine's move to Munich, which he suspected, so Raine you really
cost me even more than you might have thought. France had also pledged a
support into Belgium, but I was less sure of his. I just didn't think he'd
make the move to Munich when it can be recovered right back. Guess I
underestimated him.
Its not too late for us, but all 3 of us are now at the lower end of the
totem, instead of the high end where we should be. What it takes now is for
all 3 of us to say "I am resigned to the fact that if EIT doesn't happen,
I'm going to be in trouble, so I will put all my effort into making it
work." Raine, if you really want to show that you're sorry, you'll lend
your help against a France that will obviously be breathing down your neck
next. Eric, we warned you not to give up your position on Russia, now
you've got to build fleet Ank and get it back. And me? Well, I've got to
find some way to stay alive and punish Rod. So, are we together or not?
Brent
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:40 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Russia in 'gutsy':
It wasn't quite that clear. France offered the support, which I was
leery of, but wanted to give him the chance. Germany also offered the
support, but was forced to remove that offer when it became clear that Italy
was going to move to Munich. So I clearly have one enemy, and the other one
is up in the air.
As for what you can do to help me, the best thing you can do now is not to
build any units in St. Petersburg. I can promise you that it will not be in
danger, as my unit in Norway will be moving back to protect the homeland.
The next best thing is to keep pressure off Germany. I'm pretty sure he's
more strongly on my side than Rod's, especially now. But he needs to be
able to give me the support I need. If you can do those things, you'll have
my gratitude, and you'll have a friend when it comes to crunch time later
on.
Brent
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:42 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to England in 'gutsy':
Brent,
> It wasn't quite that clear. France offered the support, which I was
> leery of, but wanted to give him the chance.
I suppose, I'd have definately insisted the support was
given to the fleet rather than the army. Letting France
know what the army was going to do was pretty risky.
> Germany also offered the
> support, but was forced to remove that offer when it became clear that Italy
> was going to move to Munich. So I clearly have one enemy, and the other one
> is up in the air.
I was pretty surprised to see that bounce in Munich myself.
Raine hadn't talked about Germany at all really and Steve
was pretty quiet on the issue. I think it's possible that
they agreed to bounce there however, which would put Steve
against you again. He's playing it pretty tight, it's
hard to see what he's thinking still. The build might tell
all I suppose.
> As for what you can do to help me, the best thing you can do now is not to
> build any units in St. Petersburg.
I guess this is giving away where my two builds will be, but
I'm not planning on building StP.
> I can promise you that it will not be in
> danger, as my unit in Norway will be moving back to protect the homeland.
Good luck with that, it's going to be quite a difficult
fight now even if Steve IS on your side. He must be
feeling pretty tempted to just grab two out of your
remaining three centers though. I guess you can argue
that France has 6 for you to share whereas you only
have two he'd be able to get.
> The next best thing is to keep pressure off Germany. I'm pretty sure he's
> more strongly on my side than Rod's, especially now.
Really? I assume you've been talking to them more than I have
but FG looks pretty strong to me. Five centers and a neutral
each (Germany can force Bel this spring) is a very good start
for FG indeed. If he looks like he's on your side then I'll
leave him alone for as long as I can at least. I expect to
see two army builds if he is on your side though.
> But he needs to be
> able to give me the support I need. If you can do those things, you'll have
> my gratitude, and you'll have a friend when it comes to crunch time later
> on.
I hope so, but if Crunch time comes sooner than you expect
then you can send you exciled leaders to live in Moscow to
watch the rest of the battle play out. Heh.
Adam..........
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:43 2001
Broadcast message from brent at epicsystems.com as England in 'gutsy':
Just a heads up to everyone. I'll be around until this evening, then
gone all weekend. I'll most likely ask for an extension when I get
back, but I'd love to start talking with everyone now while I'm still
here. So get those messages coming!
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:45 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
Thanks for not opposing me in Sweeden. As you'll have no doubt
noticed things are begining to heat up and turn in my direction
slightly in the south. With luck I'll make good progress against
Eric now that I have the Black Sea under control. I hope this
stops everyone worrying about a Juggernaught.
England's down a home center already? It seems odd that France
tried for Bel AND Lon and presumably still thinks Spain is
his too. I think I spy some greed in the southwest corner.
Be wary of him and remember that you could take a larger
share of six or seven supply centers if you choose that
harder battle, rather than just two of England's three.
Ok, it's probably obvious that I've been talking to England
and offering to do all I can for him. He's asked me to stay
away from your eastern borders and not build StP and encourage
you to side with him and I've agreed to do all of those
things which should be good news for you.
I always find it hard to concentrate before the builds
come in. The map looks as though it's empty half the time
and over-full the rest as I mentally place units EVERYWHERE
that the CAN be built.
Well done in predicting Italy's move to Munich there by
the way. Everyone I spoke too figured he'd either hold it
or move back into Italy so as to be able to Convoy it
somewhere this Fall.
Adam..........
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:48 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric.
> Might I suggest that you pick up a copy of, "How to Win Friends,
> and Influence People", ;^}
I was confused by deadlines and the moves went early with
my provisional order still set? No? I ran out of petrol,
there was a fire, a plague, LOCUSTS!
Heh. Sorry about that. If it's any consolation this was
the first time I've found it genuinly hard to decide who I
was going to have to be nasty too. Usually it's pretty easy,
me and whoever talks to me will attack the dumbass who's
not said anything to either of us but no such luck this
game.
In the end Keith said he wanted to bounce in Gal again which
didn't give my move to Gal much surprise value. Raine said
he'd only be my friend if I wasn't allied with you and you'd
convinced me that your previous error was a mistake and that
you'd be trying to make up for that by moving back West. I'll
say that last bit again in case you take my joke above to
seriously: you'd convinced me that your previous error was
a mistake.
I also decided that AI was a genuine threat to you and
that it'd be simpler and easier to go with it rather than
try and keep things balanced over here. This is mostly because
the West seems to be resolving so quickly.
> > France: Fleet English Channel -> London.
> Ick, that's not good. I guess Germany's builds will tell us which
> way he's leaning, but F StP/NC would probably be a good idea,
> to either delay England's collapse, or to get a couple of his Centers.
> I will be watching your builds with interest. 8-)
England says that not only should I not build in StP, I shouldn't
put any pressure on Germany either since he seems to think
Steve is really on England's side and will come to the rescue.
I'll be watching HIS builds carefully, as you say it should
let us know which way he's going to fall.
Adam.........
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:50 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Austria in 'gutsy':
I'm hearing reports guessing that the bounce in Munich was arranged.
Do you have any information either way? From what I can tell, Italy was
keeping his plans pretty close and not really discussing them much, but
as his neighbor and someone with a vested interest in Tyrolia I thought
you'd have a better chance of having heard something than me. Things
certainly are interesting in the East, Turkey gives up great position
and lets Russia into the Black Sea, while moving to Syria!? I'm quite
anxious to hear Eric's explanation of that one.
Brent
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:51 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
Congratulations. You get Lon and even tried for Bel
while still (presumably) retaining a claim on Spa.
Things seem to be going well. I'm very impressed
at the speed things are moving over there.
I suppose that there's only one more English SC on
your hit list though, the rest going to Germany. Two
at tops. What are your plans after that? I guess
Italy should watch his back huh? Or were you
serious that FIR is where it's at and you'll
take on G?
Over here it looks like the treat of AI managed to
get Eric to turn around just as I'd hoped and I've
slipped into the Black Sea. Might as well take
advantage of the situation now I guess.
Adam.........
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:53 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
I was not dishonest when I said that I thought you'd be a superb ally,
but in the end I decided to be opportunistic and pursue the plan that
gave me two builds.
> Well, at least now I know where I stand.
Indeed. You know exactly what you have to do.
Rod
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:56 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
> Congratulations.
Thanks! Things look good for you too - two builds and BLA. :-) I
think Eric was certain that you'd support yourself to Rum.
> What are your plans after that?
I guess my choices would be to stab either Germany or Italy. I intend
to go with whatever seems best at the time. I suppose G would be the
more natural target if you and I both do well and decide to work
together.
> Or were you serious that FIR is where it's at and you'll take on G?
That's a definite possibility. Or if AIT flounder, you and I could
try for a two-way. I think you're in a good position to move things
in that direction in the south.
Rod
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:54 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
I'm sorry I couldn't respond before the deadline. I usually check my
email in the evening, but I was busy last night.
Regardless, it looks like we each made the right choice. :-)
I might not be able to devote as much time as I'd like to Diplomacy
today or tomorrow, but I anticipate that we'll have plenty of time to
develop detailed plans for the Spring. I'm open to suggestions.
Rod
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:57 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
Too bad you didn't make it into Mun. That would've been sweet!
I'm hoping Germany will help me against England, but if you want to be
a thorn in his side to keep him a little distracted, that's fine with
me. ;-)
Rod
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:58 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
Keith,
Congratulations on your two builds! It's always nice when Austria
gets off to a good start. :-)
It looks like Turkey may be in trouble, eh?
Rod
From - Fri Sep 21 19:12:59 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
Looks like Russia got lucky. I didn't expect him to be so bold.
Maybe it will come back to bite him, but who knows?
So have you figured out who your ally is yet? ;-)
Rod
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:01 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> Congratulations on your two builds! It's always nice when Austria
> gets off to a good start. :-)
Thanks! You too. I don't think I would have done that as England.
Whatever did you tell him?
> It looks like Turkey may be in trouble, eh?
He was giving me a hard line before. I'm glad to see Russia in the Black
Sea. We'll see what Turkey says now.
Austria
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:02 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> > Russia: Army Warsaw -> Galicia. (*bounce*)
> > Russia: Fleet Sevastopol -> Black Sea.
>
> Hmmm, I think Adam should pick up a copy of, "How to Win
> Friends, and Influence People", ;^} Or was the bounce in Gal agreed
> upon again? I'm more than open to any ideas you might have regarding
> an AT alliance.
As I said before, I'm worried about being crushed between Italy and
Russia. What do you suggest?
Austria
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:03 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Yes, I am glad that worked. It also looks like you won't have to face
any problems from England any time soon. And congratulations on your two
builds. This was a great year for you.
I think your building in Sevastopol would be great. This will give you
the offense needed against Turkey, and it is less threatening to me than
an army. Plus, it will give you the opportunity to move into the seas
past Constantinople when the time comes.
I will be building two armies. I think Italy would have my head if I
built a fleet.
Austria
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:05 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to England in 'gutsy':
> I'm hearing reports guessing that the bounce in Munich was arranged.
> Do you have any information either way? From what I can tell, Italy was
> keeping his plans pretty close and not really discussing them much, but
> as his neighbor and someone with a vested interest in Tyrolia I thought
> you'd have a better chance of having heard something than me.
I don't think that was arranged. Italy did not tell me about it, and
Germany had asked me what I thought Italy might do. All I knew was that
Italy promised to move the army from Tyrolia. It seems that Italy has
benefitted you. Otherwise France probably would have convoyed to London.
Whatever did France tell you to fool you?
> Things
> certainly are interesting in the East, Turkey gives up great position
> and lets Russia into the Black Sea, while moving to Syria!? I'm quite
> anxious to hear Eric's explanation of that one.
I think he was pulling back from Russia and moved to Syria to start
protecting against a convoy there from Italy. I don't know what he'll do
now. I am sure he does not appreciate Russia's fleet in the Black Sea.
Russia seems to have done well for himself. With France attacking you,
Germany letting him have Sweden, and gaining the Black Sea, he is sitting
pretty.
Austria
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:06 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
>Message from France to Turkey in'gutsy':
>
>So have you figured out who your ally is yet? ;-)
Why, I thought you were my ally... *pout*
it will depend on builds, obviously, but given
the apparent RI, I may have to get back AT them.
Eric.
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:07 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
Thanks for the bounce in Munich. I'm sorry my last two messages were
confusing, but it seemed to work out very well.
In your last letter it appeared that you really thought a lot about it.
Your "pros" and "cons" were right on target; I'm glad you decided on the
bounce. As for me, it really seemed like the best move:
- It gave me a reason *not* commit to either E or F quite yet. I needed one
more season of moves to be sure of their intentions. I also wanted one more
season for ART to develop a bit.
- It kept my home centers open for builds. I figured France would have that
flexibility so I wanted it too.
- It kept two units on Belgium. I figured no matter who got it (or if it
stayed open), I would want the influence.
In response to other comments you made:
> -Do you think I intented to move there anyway and now I have a reason?
I thought about this for a while, but in the end I decided you were being
honest with me. I did not expect you to order Tyr - Mun without me
requesting it, but I didn't have much else to do with Ruh without looking
foolish to E and F or committing too early.
> -It gives us both a diplomatic weapon.
I agree with you; this is one of the big advantages of the bounce. I am
interested in why you think this is true, though. I'm still thinking about
it.
The other things we should talk about are France in London and Russia in the
Black Sea. Both have far-reaching impact on the alliance structure of the
board. Any thoughts?
Thanks again and write when you can.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:09 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
> I'm sorry I couldn't respond before the deadline. I usually check my
> email in the evening, but I was busy last night.
No problem.
> Regardless, it looks like we each made the right choice. :-)
Yea, it does. That was a tricky move. I don't yet have a good read on
Raine; we've been writing a little more, but I'm not sure what his motives
are. What are your impressions of him?
> I might not be able to devote as much time as I'd like to Diplomacy
> today or tomorrow, but I anticipate that we'll have plenty of time to
> develop detailed plans for the Spring. I'm open to suggestions.
That's fine. I'm pretty busy right now and will be this weekend as well. I
understand there might be an extension coming. If so that should give us
the time we need.
Gotta go now. I'll write when I can; please do the same.
Thanks.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:11 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
>Message from Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> > was the bounce in Gal agreed upon again?
You didn't answer this last time. 8-)
> > I'm more than open to any ideas you might have > regarding an AT
>alliance.
>
>I'm worried about being crushed between Italy and
>Russia. What do you suggest?
I was hoping that you'd have some ideas.
They are likely to come to you offering support
into Bul, and possibly requesting other moves.
If you let me know what they are prosposing, we
ought to be able to coordinate our response.
Eric.
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:12 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
That was a fine set of moves there, my friend. Well done.
> I hope this stops everyone worrying about a Juggernaught.
Might, might not. :) Suspicions will probably subside after the builds,
though.
And, was the bounce in Galicia planned? It kind of looked that way to me,
but I thought I would ask anyhow.
Regarding England, I agree with your assessment. He's in a whale of
trouble, so I have to decide whether to help in his destruction or use this
as an opportunity to pick up some other centers. I have to think about that
a bit, but none of us want to see France get too big too fast.
> Ok, it's probably obvious that I've been talking to England
> and offering to do all I can for him. He's asked me to stay
> away from your eastern borders and not build StP and encourage
> you to side with him and I've agreed to do all of those
> things which should be good news for you.
That is excellent news. I appreciate it. You should be okay not building
in St Pete; it would be a little reckless of England to jump on that center
when he's still struggling to retake London.
> I always find it hard to concentrate before the builds
> come in. The map looks as though it's empty half the time
> and over-full the rest as I mentally place units EVERYWHERE
> that the CAN be built.
Me, too. I always make the mistake of placing my units first and coming up
with these grand schemes of taking this center and that...then I come back
to earth and realize that everyone else gets new units, too. That makes the
game much harder. :)
> Well done in predicting Italy's move to Munich there by
> the way. Everyone I spoke too figured he'd either hold it
> or move back into Italy so as to be able to Convoy it
> somewhere this Fall.
Thanks. That was a tricky decision to make. It meant I couldn't commit to
E or F and I would have vacated the Ruhr if Raine hadn't ordered tyr-mun. A
bit of a risk, but I like my position now. I think Raine was just testing t
he waters.
Write when you can. As long as we stay clear of each other, there's plenty
of opportunity for each of us to grow.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:14 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
> I don't yet have a good read on Raine; we've been
> writing a little more, but I'm not sure what his motives
> are. What are your impressions of him?
He seems friendly (to me), and of course we've agreed to leave each
other alone. I asked him about A Tyl earlier, and he said that he
didn't want to stab Austria if he wasn't sure that there was not an
RT. I just assumed that meant he would Hold. Maybe he was just
hoping to get lucky and figured you wouldn't be able to do much to
retaliate.
Rod
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:16 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> Whatever did you tell him?
I wouldn't have needed to tell him anything, if Germany had offered to
support him to Belgium. ;-)
> We'll see what Turkey says now.
I think he'll want your help. He told me he's concerned about IR.
Rod
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:17 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
> Why, I thought you were my ally... *pout*
Well, of course I am! Shall we gang up on Russia?
> I may have to get back AT them.
:-)
Rod
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:18 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Russia in 'gutsy':
Hi Adam,
Far Side has a translated name here. I like it too. I mentioned Dilbert
due to computers you were talking about. From Dilbert I have read the best
computer jokes.
> I was being a little tight lipped there, sorry. We'd arranged
> another bounce which is the easiest way to do everything
> safely but I didn't want to make that too obvious in case
> it effected your A Tyr's move. It didn't seem likely that
> you'd take Tri if you knew with more certaintly that it'd
> be open but I didn't see much point in taking the risk.
I agree. Good move from you and Austria. I don't take it as offense. I am
happy to have people like you as allies. I hope I am more and more
reliable now.
> I'd have liked to see his moves showing his aligence a little
> more closely. I suspect he's aligned more with France than
> England though which would make him an ideal mouse for my
> northern cat to play with if I'm trying to prop up England
> and make sure the Western Tripple doesn't resolve too quickly
> for us.
I have the feeling that Germany wants to wait and see whom to turn to. He
will be powerful in gutsy. He has the longest straw in west at the moment.
> I think he was only suggesting that to try and make
> sure you didn't go for Munich. I assume your bounce there
> wasn't arranged?
I can't say that it was arranged. We talked about it for sure. It was
half-arranged :-)
> It's nice to have moves going through early rather than
> having to wait for late players.
I like this game. No late players, no need to set waits. This is awesome.
> This is what he was saying to me too, but I suspect he'll be
> looking for something else to try and do now that he's seen
> me take advantage and move to Bla. I have a short note from
> him already, I don't think he's too pleased. I guess I'll
> have to build F Sev, we'll see if Eric builds F Ank or F
> Smy. I wonder who he thinks is the bigger threat? Especially
> since you tried to go north just now!
I don't know where Eric will build but RAI should take Bulgaria from
Turkey now. Could we arrange Bulgary to Austria? I certainly would like to
get Greece then.
About your build, F Sev is ok. Later when Turkey is gone I would like you
to dispand one of your southern fleets.
Raine
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:24 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to France in 'gutsy':
Hi Rod,
I need to be careful now. I kind of expected the bounce but on the other
hand it would have been nice to have christmas present earlier :-)
Good work in London! I hope you will remember to not build a fleet in Mar.
> I'm hoping Germany will help me against England, but if you want to be
> a thorn in his side to keep him a little distracted, that's fine with
> me. ;-)
I guess I have to take it easy now. But when I have the chance I'll try to
go to drink to a German pub :-)
Raine
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:25 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to France in 'gutsy':
[Indeed. You know exactly what you have to do.]
Well, not exactly. I haven't decided how I want to proceed from this
point. All I know is that I obviously rank lower on your scale than
Germany, enough so that you were willing to commit yourself fully to an
attack on me without first getting confirmation of his allegiance, and
despite the fact that it would require you to lie through your teeth.
I'm curious what I did to get in that position, but I suspect the answer
is that I simply gave you the easy opportunity to put me there.
Do you know exactly what you have to do at this point? Are you
confident that you've got the right people on your side? If so, either
you're wrong, or I'm in big trouble. If not, then I've still got hope.
At this point, neither you nor Germany has done anythng to really win my
trust, so the ball is still up in the air. I'm still willing to talk if
you are. Of course, there will be some requirements placed on any sort
of cooperation between us, so if you feel that you don't have anything
to give up than we probably won't get very far. But I'm not one to go
silent, even in the face of an attack.
Brent
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:28 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to France in 'gutsy':
>Message from France to Turkey in'gutsy':
Rod,
>
> > Why, I thought you were my ally... *pout*
>
>Well, of course I am! Shall we gang up on Russia?
You could build in Mar... A Mar-Pie, or
F Mar-GoL would help me a great deal. 8-)
Eric.
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:29 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hi Steve,
> Thanks for the bounce in Munich.
You are welcome.
> I'm sorry my last two messages were
> confusing, but it seemed to work out very well.
I am happy to hear this.
> - It gave me a reason *not* commit to either E or F quite yet. I needed one
> more season of moves to be sure of their intentions. I also wanted one more
> season for ART to develop a bit.
I envy your position in west. You seem to have right cards there.
> > -It gives us both a diplomatic weapon.
>
> I agree with you; this is one of the big advantages of the bounce. I am
> interested in why you think this is true, though. I'm still thinking about
> it.
You have already used this when you had a perfect excuse to not support E
or F to Belgium.
> The other things we should talk about are France in London and Russia in the
> Black Sea. Both have far-reaching impact on the alliance structure of the
> board. Any thoughts?
French army in London is something I wouldn't believe to witness in
gutsy. I mean, it is a very offending move there is no turning
back. France risks being the odd one out in west. Your moves seem to be
favouring France but you still have a chance to go with England (I still
hope you decide to do it). England is in a desperate situation and he
should be willing to do everything to get you as his ally.
What comes to Black Sea it just underlines that we have a gambler in this
game. That was a gutsy move from Russia and it gave him a very good
position in east.
Where do you think Eric will put his fleet, to Smy or Ank?
Raine
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:31 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
Good work in Galicia and more important is the good work in getting the
two builds. Please do not build a fleet! That would ruin our good start.
I think our next step would be to take Bulgaria from Turkey. Like I said
earlier it should be yours. I am looking forward to see the builds 'cause
Turkey has a difficult choise to make. Do you have any info of his
forthcoming build? Has Eric told you any reasons why he moved to
Syr(!)? That is unusual.
Raine
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:32 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
It seems that I am doing everything wrong :-( I thought I was helping you
with my move to Munich. I feel bad.
You are right Brent when you say that EIT is not over, yet. It is just
very hard to arrange now. I think Eric's move to Syria was a huge
overreaction. He is now badly placed and he is showing that he is angry to
me. I have done quite normal and neutral moves so far, except Tyr-Mun.
Turkey has made very unusual moves. I am sure he is begging Russia on his
side. I am expecting a fleet in Smy.
I hope I can help you with my army in Tyrolia instead of hurting you.
Raine
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:34 2001
Message from brent at epicsystems.com as England to Italy in 'gutsy':
Its too bad we didn't talk about Tyrolia more, I was concentrating so
hard on trying to keep you and Eric from fighting that I didn't think
about it much until Steven let me know that he was very concerned about
it, and by that time it was too late. You still can use Tyrolia to help
me a lot though, by moving it to Piedmont in the Spring. I need someone
to distract France from his attack on me in order to be able to regain
my footing. It would probably go a long way towards repairing relations
with Steven as well. Even if he does stay allied with France (and I'm
hoping he doesn't), I'm sure he wouldn't mind someone giving France a
bit of a hassle.
I agree that Eric overreacted a bit, but I think he sees that now too.
The best thing we can do is not to rub it in, but just proceed as if a
friend made a mistake and we want to help him correct it, for his own
benefit. A build of fleet Rome might also go over well with both him
and me, though it is kind of throwing yourself on the grenade. It would
make France give some serious thought to what he plans to do this
Spring, and that might just be the opening that I need. Give it some
thought and let me know what you think.
Brent
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:36 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Italy in
'gutsy':
Raine,
> I hope you will remember to not build a fleet in Mar.
I remember. :-)
> I guess I have to take it easy now.
Yes. There's no point in making an enemy if you're not going to get
any of his centers, eh?
> But when I have the chance I'll try to
> go to drink to a German pub :-)
I look forward to it. Hopefully the cheerleaders will join us. ;-)
Rod
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:38 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to England in
'gutsy':
Brent,
> [Indeed. You know exactly what you have to do.]
> Well, not exactly.
I'm sure you'll think of something. It wouldn't be very satisfying if
you just rolled over and died, eh? :-)
> I obviously rank lower on your scale than Germany
It's not about you versus Germany - it's about what seemed best for
France at the time.
> despite the fact that it would require you to lie through your teeth.
Well, I had to have been lying to *somebody*, given that our
discussions were not consistent with what I was telling Germany.
Actually, they weren't really lies - they were "potential truths".
;-) What I said did not become a lie until I decided to enter moves
contrary to our plans.
At least, that's what I tell myself so I can sleep at night. ;-)
> I suspect the answer
> is that I simply gave you the easy opportunity to put me there.
Yes, that's part of it. Also, I didn't really like the idea of
getting only one build while you and Germany each got two. My
motives were purely selfish.
> Are you confident that you've got the right people on your side?
One can never be certain.
> Of course, there will be some requirements placed on any sort
> of cooperation between us
I'm sure that you have requirements. I have requirements too - E/F
cooperation must benefit me more than attacking you. Given the
current position, that would be difficult to arrange. But if you
can think of a way to pull it off, I'm certainly willing to listen.
> But I'm not one to go silent, even in the face of an attack.
Situations have a way of quickly changing - we saw that in both
corners of the board this turn. You just have to find a way to
make it change in your favor, eh?
Good luck! :-)
Rod
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:40 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Turkey in
'gutsy':
Eric,
> You could build in Mar... A Mar-Pie, or
> F Mar-GoL would help me a great deal. 8-)
I would love to call off the attack on England and pummel Italy
instead, but alas - I promised Raine I wouldn't build in Mar. My
hands are tied.
Rod
P.S. I hope you appreciate good-natured sarcasm. ;-)
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:41 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
We have put ourselves into a difficult situation. You are in troubles if
you build to Smyrna. I am not your trouble maker. That Russian fleet is
bad.
I asked about the Galician situation and it was agreed like you
said. Maybe the 2nd bounce in there was also agreed. I hope it doesn't
mean that we are facing a AR alliance.
I am not sure where I should build in this situation. I know that if I
build to Rome France is immedately wondering what I am doing. If I build
to Nap you are concerned. If we think about ideal continuation as TIE I
think you should build a fleet to Ank and I should build a fleet to
Nap. Then I should attack France. I see the problem. You don't believe me.
To build a fleet in Nap is too much for you. If there only would be a way
to tell you that I really am thinkig about TIE...
Raine
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:43 2001
Message from rkarjala at mail.student.oulu.fi as Italy to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Thanks for the quick reply.
We should have talked about the Tyrolia. Let's forget that now and try to
recover TIE.
> I agree that Eric overreacted a bit, but I think he sees that now too.
> The best thing we can do is not to rub it in, but just proceed as if a
> friend made a mistake and we want to help him correct it, for his own
> benefit. A build of fleet Rome might also go over well with both him
> and me, though it is kind of throwing yourself on the grenade. It would
> make France give some serious thought to what he plans to do this
> Spring, and that might just be the opening that I need. Give it some
> thought and let me know what you think.
I think the best way to continue TIE is
-Turkey builds F Ank.
-Italy builds F NAP(!)
Then Italy should attack France while he is not prepared.
The weak point is that Eric won't tolerate the build to Nap.
Raine
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:47 2001
Message from dip_power at hotmail.com as Turkey to Italy in 'gutsy':
>Message from Italy to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Raine,
>You are in troubles if you build to Smyrna. That Russian fleet is bad.
(Should be, "You are in trouble if...")
Well, actually, B F Smy, followed by Con-Ank,
Smy-Con, Syr-Arm, defends against Russia pretty well.
Obviously, if Russia gets help from you or Austria,
I have a real problem, but Turkey can defend against
any one enemy. I just have to decide whom to defend
against.
>the Galician situation was agreed like you said. Maybe the 2nd bounce in
>there was also agreed.
Adam claims it was. Keith has refused to
confirm or deny, yet.
>I am not sure where I should build in this situation.
Whom do you want to ally with, and whom do you
want to attack? Answer those questions, and you'll
know where to build.
>if I build to Rome France is immediately wondering what I am doing.
("if I build in Rome, France will immediately wonder
what...")
Yes, but Rod claims that he's promised to not
build in Mar, so he won't be positioned to defend,
even if he knows that you're attacking.
>I see the problem. You don't believe me.
>To build a fleet in Nap is too much for you.
It's not that I don't believe you. I believe
that you are interested in, but not committed to
EIT, but threats come from Units on the map, not
from player press, or player desires. If your
moves and builds add up to a Lepanto, then I have
to defend against that, no matter what you say.
If I said I wanted EIT and then built two Fleets,
you'd have to defend against my trying to take
Ion, even if I had a good explanation for the
third Fleet.
Eric.
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:50 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Turkey in 'gutsy':
Hi Eric,
Is that what you thought Russia would do? If you two were working together,
I would have expected something like sev - rum and ukr - sev. From where I
sit, either you and he are hiding the juggernaut like it's never been hidden
before or Adam pulled a fast one on you. I think I know what you're going
to say, but I thought I'd write anyhow.
The only thorn in my side is Italy and I don't think it's a very big one.
Once I build in Munich, I expect Raine's sight seeing trip will be over.
The question is where does he go next? If you have any thoughts on how we
can work the press together to encourage Raine one way or the other, please
let me know.
Please don't tell Rod about the Munich build by the way. :)
Also, who's in the best position do you think? France and Russia both look
good, but Keith is no slouch and I know he just loves playing Austria. If
you are not jugging, watch AR and ask Raine for help. I know that's very
anti-Anschluss (sp?) of me, but that's where I am right now.
Anything else? Shoot, I made a note but lost it somewhere. I guess those
are my main points. Write if you can.
- Steve
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:54 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Germany in
'gutsy':
Steve,
I think you can easily get Nth this year. However, England has a
decent chance of retaking Lon, which would give him a build and cause
us problems. This is not an issue if Russia knocks him out of Nwy,
but I suppose you might feel uneasy about a strong Russian presence
in Scandinavia.
Concerning Bel: I'd *like* to get it for myself of course, but if
it's the only center you'd be able to get this year then I think you
should have it. However, I'd prefer that you not park an army there
long-term.
Rod
From - Fri Sep 21 19:13:58 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Russia in
'gutsy':
Adam,
Will you take Nwy this year? I fear that England may repatriate Lon,
and I'd rather not see him get a build.
Rod
From - Fri Sep 21 19:14:00 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Austria in 'gutsy':
Keith,
> Yes, I am glad that worked. It also looks like you won't have to face
> any problems from England any time soon. And congratulations on your two
> builds. This was a great year for you.
It turned out a lot better than I feared after the
spring moves for sure. I'll confess that I wasn't
sure that you and Eric weren't working some fantasically
complicated press campaign, as well as together.
It's the first time I've felt a little bad about
moving against someoneone. Weird feeling. Usually
you can just attack the guy who doesn't talk much
and get it over with.
> I think your building in Sevastopol would be great.
Excelent. I think I was assuming that you'd want some
control over the Med but you're right, that'd send Italy
insane. It's probably best that we have a fleet between
us that can head through Con into the Med anyway.
Raine has already written to me saying he's okay with
me building a fleet for now, but he'll want it disbanded
later.
Uh, yeah, we'll see.
I can never really concentrate on the board before the
builds since I imagine phantom units where they might
be built or else completely miss the fact they could
be build there so I'll leave making any more plans
until the builds are in.
I'm happy with two armies from you, indeed I'd forgotten
you're even able to build a fleet in Tri.
Adam.........
From - Fri Sep 21 19:14:03 2001
Broadcast message from bwarner34 at home.com as England in 'gutsy':
A last minute change of plans means I will be around this weekend after
all, so keep those presses coming and I'll keep responding to them!
Brent
From - Fri Sep 21 19:14:05 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to Germany in 'gutsy':
Steve,
> That was a fine set of moves there, my friend. Well done.
Thank you. I won't claim I didn't worry about them for
an age.
> > I hope this stops everyone worrying about a Juggernaught.
>
> Might, might not. :) Suspicions will probably subside after the builds,
> though.
Yeah. To be honest this is the first game I've played in
where I've had such trouble deciding what to do. EVERYONE
is talking, at least a little, and I'm used to the first
victim being easy: The quiet guy who hasn't said a word.
I even feel a little bad for Eric.
> And, was the bounce in Galicia planned?
It was, at the very last minute. I suspect if we
hadn't made that plan then War would have held
anyway.
> Regarding England, I agree with your assessment. He's in a whale of
> trouble, so I have to decide whether to help in his destruction or use this
> as an opportunity to pick up some other centers. I have to think about that
> a bit, but none of us want to see France get too big too fast.
Putting England's request that I try to convert you to his
side asside for a moment, the question looks to me like one
of taking a fairly easy two centers and ending up with a
very powerful neighbour, or working harder to take a larger
share of a larger country and being left with a relatively
weak neighbour (who I could help get rid of). I know which
of those I'd choose, all other things being equal.
> That is excellent news. I appreciate it. You should be okay not building
> in St Pete; it would be a little reckless of England to jump on that center
> when he's still struggling to retake London.
Exactly, i think I'll be safe from him except in the case
of a forced retreat from Nwy to StP. He tells me Nwy will
try to head home soon, but I frankly advised against being
rash in that reguard. Your F Den isn't far away.
> Me, too. I always make the mistake of placing my units first and coming up
> with these grand schemes of taking this center and that...then I come back
> to earth and realize that everyone else gets new units, too. That makes the
> game much harder. :)
Like the stint I spent working in a book shop. The job
would have been perfect if it wasn't for the customers.
> Thanks. That was a tricky decision to make. It meant I couldn't commit to
> E or F and I would have vacated the Ruhr if Raine hadn't ordered tyr-mun. A
> bit of a risk, but I like my position now. I think Raine was just testing t
> he waters.
I'd have probably done the same. It's so easy to sit on
the fence when everyone has merits and nobody is as clearly
deserving of destruction as the silent one.
Adam........
From - Fri Sep 21 19:14:08 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to France and Germany in 'gutsy':
I'd just like both of you to know that I am not one to hold grudges, but
neither am I one to go down easily. I have yet to be eliminated in a game
by anything other than a solo, and I don't plan to make this one the first.
I have pledges of support from two Eastern countries so far who have said
that they will send units West in my defense. And why shouldn't they? It
takes quite a few units to take out England, and while your units are busy,
theirs will be nipping at your heels. England will rise again!
From - Fri Sep 21 19:14:10 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
I sent that message to both of you just to give the impression that I'm
trying to give Rod that I don't trust either of you. In fact, I do trust
you still, though I'm going on pure faith alone. And that is why I need
your help. If I am to survive, I absolutely must get a build this coming
year, and I'll need your help to do it. I wasn't lying about the Eastern
support, but so far I've told them to lay off you. I need some concrete
support from you this season though. Do you think that will be possible?
Brent
From - Fri Sep 21 19:14:12 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Italy and Turkey in 'gutsy':
Eric's fears are all the more reason that I think F Rom is the perfect
build if you're really serious about EIT. While it doesn't give you quite
the surprise factor against France, surprise is not what the alliance needs
right now. The alliance needs to build trust amongst each other, and the
alliance needs to protect its member who is in danger of being eliminated.
A fleet in Rome accomplishes both of these. Eric could just as easily aruge
that building F Smy could be used to help surprise Russia. I don't think
its valid there either. The trust and the position is much more important
right now. I can't control your actions, but I can ask you to look at the
board and think where we could be right now if we'd followed the initial
plan. If both of you trust ME, just for one turn, I know we can turn this
thing around.
Brent
From - Fri Sep 21 19:14:15 2001
Message from pre at dalliance.net as Russia to France in 'gutsy':
Rod,
> I guess my choices would be to stab either Germany or Italy. I intend
> to go with whatever seems best at the time. I suppose G would be the
> more natural target if you and I both do well and decide to work
> together.
Italy always feels so far away from France, unless he starts
to head in your direction (and I doubt he will). It does have
the advantage of meaning crossing the main stalemate lines
nice and early though. I like Russia for the fact it straddles
that line, as France very nearly does. Having said that, I was
disapointed that my [FERT][AIG] preference list got me Russia
AGAIN.
> That's a definite possibility. Or if AIT flounder, you and I could
> try for a two-way. I think you're in a good position to move things
> in that direction in the south.
It's weird, but I'm finding it easier to understand the
situation in the west than in the east, even though I'm
here in the thick of it in the East. I think that's becasue
all the Western powers are better communicators, but I guess
it could also be simply that you're all less likely to lie
to me since I can't effect your situation so easily.
All this means that I don't really know what I'm doing in
the south. This is why most of my units went in that direction.
As far as taking Norway goes. I won't be building in StP, but
England has said he wouldn't like that and a build there could
stop him doing what he said he'd do - move Nwy back to defend
his homeland. It's possible I'll move A Mos to StP in the
spring and then take Nwy in the fall, but I wouldn't put
too much cash on it. I'm afraid.
Adam........
From - Fri Sep 21 19:14:17 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Master in 'gutsy':
England's End of Year 1901
It was a dismal year for England. My attempts at alliances failed at just
about every point. My hopes were to put myself in a position where I had F
and G fighting, and could choose my side. My first e-mail going astray
really hurt me. I quickly decided that Steve and I clicked a lot better
than Rod and I, and was going to side with Germany. I still have hopes
there!
My biggest focus was on the EIT alliance. I think these two-front wars
are a great way to control the game, and was really confident about it going
into the Fall turn, enough so that I wasn't really concerned about letting
France into English. This backfired when Italy and Turkey got to bickering
and ended up just about dissolving the alliance.
My goals for now are to stay alive. Germany is still my number one ally
hope, but I'm also trying to pull together the ETI. I don't plan to give up
without a fight!
From - Fri Sep 21 19:14:19 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> I was hoping that you'd have some ideas.
> They are likely to come to you offering support
> into Bul, and possibly requesting other moves.
> If you let me know what they are prosposing, we
> ought to be able to coordinate our response.
Let's see what the builds are before making any plans. I don't feel
right sharing movement information given to me in confidence, otherwise
no one will ever share their moves with me again.
Austria
From - Fri Sep 21 19:14:20 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
> > We'll see what Turkey says now.
>
> I think he'll want your help. He told me he's concerned about IR.
Yes, perhaps I should be concerned too. Let's see what the builds
bring. I'm in quite a tight situation. I don't want to get squeezed in
the middle.
I wouldn't be surprised if Russia started moving against Germany. Have
you heard anything from him? It seems like England won't cause Russia
any problems for now, and Russia has the extra unit to put North.
What is your relationship with Italy? Any concerns?
Austria
From - Fri Sep 21 19:14:22 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
> Good work in Galicia and more important is the good work in getting the
> two builds. Please do not build a fleet! That would ruin our good start.
Don't worry, I won't build a fleet. Russia wants to build F Sev, which
is fine with me.
> I think our next step would be to take Bulgaria from Turkey. Like I said
> earlier it should be yours. I am looking forward to see the builds 'cause
> Turkey has a difficult choise to make. Do you have any info of his
> forthcoming build? Has Eric told you any reasons why he moved to
> Syr(!)? That is unusual.
No, I have no idea what Turkey is going to build. He was pretty much
ignoring me last turn, but now of course he is approaching me for help.
We can destroy Bulgaria in the Spring, and support you to Aeg, though Eas
might be better. We can start planning the exact moves once we see what
Turkey builds.
Austria
From - Fri Sep 21 19:22:15 2001
Message from rodspade at acm.org,rodney.spade at philips.com as France to Austria in
'gutsy':
> I wouldn't be surprised if Russia started moving against Germany.
> Have you heard anything from him?
He told me that he "isn't sure" what's going on in the south.
> and Russia has the extra unit to put North.
Well, if he doesn't feel strongly allied with either you or Turkey,
I'm not sure he would divert a unit north or west at this time. Are
you and he on good terms?
> What is your relationship with Italy? Any concerns?
Good so far. Last turn he told me he was concerned about the
possibility of RT. If the Fall moves have allayed his concerns
then maybe we ought to start worrying about him.
Rod
From - Fri Sep 21 21:45:05 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to France in 'gutsy':
The story as I know it is that Turkey was not pleased with Russia's move
to the Black Sea. Perhaps this is a front, I don't know. However
before the moves Turkey was ignoring me, and now he seems to be wanting
something from me, so I tend to doubt it.
Russia and I arranged the bounce in Galacia again.
I think the builds will be telling. My builds are obvious, as perhaps is
Italy's, but the others have some options.
Austria
From - Sat Sep 22 08:59:59 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Germany in 'gutsy':
Hey Steve,
> Is that what you thought Russia would do?
No, he decided that ARI vs. T made more sense than RT vs. AI.
> The only thorn in my side is Italy and I don't think it's a very big one.
Who told you he was moving Tyl-Mun?
> The question is where does he go next?
Good question, I wish I knew the answer. His build will tell us
something, I expect. He could continue with the Lepanto, attack
France, or attack Austria, in roughly that order of lilelihood.
> Please don't tell Rod about the Munich build by the way. :)
Tell me your other build, and I won't tell him about either one. 8-)
> Also, who's in the best position do you think
I'd say Russia, or you. (EF conflict, two Builds, two Units on Bel,
Russia occupied in the south...) Why is it when I play an Eastern Power,
I have wonderful relationships with the Western Power, but can't find
an ally in the East? *grumble*
Eric.
From - Sat Sep 22 09:00:12 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> I don't feel right sharing movement information given to me in
> confidence, otherwise no one will ever share their moves with me again.
That makes it awfully difficult for us to meaningfully discuss ways
to strike back at Russia or Italy, then. I guess we'll just wait for RI to
crush us between them.
Eric.
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From - Sat Sep 22 09:00:24 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to England in 'gutsy':
Hi Brent,
Wow, I'm away from the presses for just a few hours and I have notes galore.
Gotta love experienced players.
First off, I am sorry you lost London. Rod didn't tell me squat about it.
In fact, to hear he offered to support you into Belgium was a big surprise
as well. I've learned that early centers taken through such deceit are
usually short-term gains at best.
As for Munich, I got tipped off. Well not quite, but just as good. I hope
you don't mind if I keep that piece of info confidential; some cards you
keep close to your chest. :)
There are two other things I really want to discuss before the spring moves:
1) How to get you back into London without losing Liverpool. That's a
little tricky, but it can be done.
2) RT, ART, ATI, or whatever alphabet soup is coming out of the east. I
know that may seem a world away to you, but the power structure in the east
is crucial to my ability to support you against Rod.
Write when you can and have a good weekend.
- Steve
From - Sat Sep 22 09:00:28 2001
Message from bwarner34 at home.com as England to Germany in 'gutsy':
[Rod didn't tell me squat about it.
In fact, to hear he offered to support you into Belgium was a big surprise
as well. I've learned that early centers taken through such deceit are
usually short-term gains at best.]
I agree which is what made me believe that I might be safe. While I
didn't have much faith in him actually ordering the support, I didn't expect
the boldness of going for London.
[As for Munich, I got tipped off. Well not quite, but just as good. I hope
you don't mind if I keep that piece of info confidential; some cards you
keep close to your chest. :)]
No problem, obviously your information was accurate, so I won't fault you
for following it. One of us was going to end up in trouble either way.
[1) How to get you back into London without losing Liverpool. That's a
little tricky, but it can be done.]
I agree, I think it can be done, provided I'm not attacked from other
directions as well. Negotiations with Raine continue toget some
reinforcements from the South, but no word yet indicating that they'll be
coming.
[2) RT, ART, ATI, or whatever alphabet soup is coming out of the east. I
know that may seem a world away to you, but the power structure in the east
is crucial to my ability to support you against Rod.]
No, I quite understand that the East is key, which is another reason that
I think you're better off with me as an ally than Rod. I've had pretty good
luck so far connecting with the Eastern powers, or at least it seems that
way. Here's my opinion of whats gone down so far:
Eric's move to Black Sea and Armenia was similar to Rod's move to the
Channel. He did it to keep his options open, then tried to negotiate a
reversal with Russia. Instead Russia looks to have returned the favor by
stabbing him. It could've been arranged, but my instincts tell me no.
Keith has been pretty tight lipped, and no one seems real enthused about
getting him as an ally. Nonetheless, everyone seems to acknowledge that he
is in a position to decide the East's fate. I've had the least contact with
him of any power, so maybe you can fill in more there.
Raine has been playing a very selfish game, finding the moves that are best
for him and then trying to convince others that they will benefit. It
hasn't endeared him to many, and he's now left without friends. I'm hoping
that my offers of friendship and easy centers could pull him West.
So, how does that line up with your own assessment? Also, I'm interested in
hearing your plans or ideas for our Spring moves. The sooner I have an idea
where we're headed the sooner I can start negotiating with the others to
assist.
Brent
From - Sat Sep 22 09:00:29 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I'm in a tight situation
too. I'll do what I can. I would have been easier if you had attacked
Russia. I tried communicating with you last turn, but it seemed like you
were ignoring me.
Austria
From - Sat Sep 22 09:00:30 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Russia in 'gutsy':
Turkey seems quite upset. It is probably best to eliminate him quickly.
Sooner or later we should start looking at Germany. If you plan to
attack him eventually, you will need my help. I'm trying to consider the
state of Europe once we have eliminaged Turkey.
Austria
From - Sat Sep 22 09:00:32 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Italy in 'gutsy':
Thanks for your letter, Raine. I appreciate the continued communication.
We are in the rare position of making a GI partnership an *active* force;
let's keep talking.
Here's what I am considering right now. I know it's a lot, but I believe in
sharing my thoughts:
- Both R and T are claiming they are at war. I'm not sure if I believe
them, but I would like to see it; the alternative (a juggernaut) is bad for
everyone else on the board.
- If R and T are indeed fighting, I think T has the upper hand. Russia's
position is good, but Turkey can still use Syria to pressure Sev by fall.
If Eric builds a fleet in Ankara (which he should unless there's a
juggernaut), he has an excellent chance of knocking Russia out of the Black
Sea no matter what Russia builds.
- Syria is there to discourage you from trying a Lepanto (and appease Adam).
Eric is playing a very sophisticated and dangerous game. If you want to try
Lepanto still, I'd understand.
- Since England is struggling, I don't expect a build in St Pete. Adam
could still surprise me, but I don't think so.
- France will certainly build a fleet in Brest. Without it, he will lose
London for sure. The other build will be an army, but I'm not sure where.
If we work together in the spring, there's a very good chance one of us
could take Marseilles.
- I will definitely build an army in Munich. So, I don't think any
sneakiness through Munich in the spring is possible.
- I understand the bounce in Galicia was planned. I'm still trying to
figure out what that means, though. Too much in my head right now. :)
So, given what I just wrote, how would you like to approach the next year?
Write when you can. Thanks.
- Steve
From - Sat Sep 22 09:00:34 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I'm in a tight situation
> too. I'll do what I can.
I suspect that it's in your best interest. Russia indicates he moved to
Bla to make Italy happy, so unless you can arrange to get two or three
of my Centers, I'd be willing to bet that RI will collapse on you once I'm
gone.
> I would have been easier if you had attacked Russia.
I didn't feel I could afford to ignore the Lepanto, and I hoped that
Russia would take my withdrawl as a signal that he and I could work
together. It's ironic, but everyone wanted me to attack Russia, and
so I did, and Italy responded with a Lepanto. It seems that I was
played for a sucker.
Eric the Turk.
From - Sat Sep 22 09:00:35 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
> I suspect that it's in your best interest. Russia indicates he moved to
> Bla to make Italy happy, so unless you can arrange to get two or three
> of my Centers, I'd be willing to bet that RI will collapse on you once I'm
> gone.
It is possible. Try to last as long as you can, and you may get some relief.
> > I would have been easier if you had attacked Russia.
>
> I didn't feel I could afford to ignore the Lepanto, and I hoped that
> Russia would take my withdrawl as a signal that he and I could work
> together. It's ironic, but everyone wanted me to attack Russia, and
> so I did, and Italy responded with a Lepanto. It seems that I was
> played for a sucker.
I don't know the substance of your conversations with Italy and Russia.
They merely told me that you were very communicative. Nothing else
seemed abnormal to me. What were you expecting to happen?
Austria
From - Sat Sep 22 09:00:38 2001
Message from scse at maine.rr.com as Germany to Austria in 'gutsy':
Hi Keith,
We really should be talking more. I don't care much about what the rest of
the world is saying; I'll respond to your letters first if you'd like.
The main idea behind Anschluss is treating AG as one nation. In that
spirit, we should have a common approach to both Italy and Russia. I hope
you agree. My greatest concern right now is our relationship with Italy; I
imagine that's in your top 10 list of concerns, too. Russia must be up
there as well, right?
Please write when you can. Thanks for the tip on Tyrolia BTW; I appreciate
it.
Let's talk some more.
- Steve
From - Sat Sep 22 09:00:39 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Germany in 'gutsy':
> The main idea behind Anschluss is treating AG as one nation. In that
> spirit, we should have a common approach to both Italy and Russia. I hope
> you agree. My greatest concern right now is our relationship with Italy; I
> imagine that's in your top 10 list of concerns, too. Russia must be up
> there as well, right?
Italy's not going to bother you any more, probably. He took his stab,
and he was bounced. Now there's little he can do. I am guessing that
you will be able to convince him quite easily to attack France. I know
that you must be on good terms with France, and you were likely behind
fooling England. I also know that a powerful France can be dangerous to
Germany, especially since you will have to deal with Russia sooner or
later.
Why did you not bounce Russia from Sweden? If England is not a factor in
Scandinavia for much longer, why would you want to increase Russia's
power in the North?
I can't read Italy and Russia very well. They seem friendly for now, but
I think they can become dangerous quickly if the both do well. I am right
between them, as you know. Sooner or later I will be viewed as a threat
or obstacle.
> Please write when you can. Thanks for the tip on Tyrolia BTW; I appreciate
> it.
I don't recall having given you any tips. I didn't know myself what
Italy was going to do. I wanted him out of Tyrolia, but he is still
there. Hopefully he will move soon.
Austria
From - Sat Sep 22 09:00:41 2001
Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Italy in 'gutsy':
Germany seems concerned about you (as you might have imagined since you
moved to Munich). I've told him that you probably won't bother him
again. Hope this is of some help to you. He may very well be interested
in assisting you against France at some point, especially if France is
too successful against England.
Turkey seems quite upset. He feels like he's been fooled, first by you,
and now by Russia. He is trying to get me to share whatever moves that
you and Russia might tell me. I suppose I could feed him the wrong
moves, but I don't see what he thinks would be in it for me to help him.
Perhaps he is grasping at straws. He was quite silent towards me last
turn, but he is becoming rather talkative now.
Austria
From - Sat Sep 22 09:01:01 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Austria in 'gutsy':
> Message from keith at alumni.caltech.edu as Austria to Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> Try to last as long as you can, and you may get some relief.
Yeah, I'm already playing that sort of game in 'titleist'. It seems
doubtful
that the relief will arrive here in time.
> I don't know the substance of your conversations with Italy and Russia.
> They merely told me that you were very communicative. Nothing else
> seemed abnormal to me. What were you expecting to happen?
I had hoped that my being very communicative would encourage
someone to ally with me. 8-) I didn't actively pursue AT only because
I wasn't hearing from you very often, or anything of great substance
when you did write. Now, fortunately, you're saying at least a bit more,
and it looks to me as though we're facing an RI, so AT becomes
necessary if we want to survive. Remember that Italian Army in Tyrolia,
and, 'Go Fasta, Go Fasta', can you REALLY afford to hope you're
going to be more than the nail that the RI hammer uses to seal my coffin?
(Keep in mind that the nail gets buried with the coffin...)
Eric the Turk.
From - Sat Sep 22 09:01:02 2001
Broadcast message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey in 'gutsy':
Sorry for being late. No excuse. My build is in now.
Eric.
From - Sat Sep 22 13:12:02 2001
Message from Elladan915 at netzero.net as Turkey to Master, Austria, England,
France, Germany, Italy and Russia in 'gutsy':
> Message from rkyonkoski at att.net as Master to Austria, England, France,
> Germany, Italy, Russia and Turkey in 'gutsy':
>
> I will stop reading all the press because Eric and I are in titleist and I
> do not want to stumble across clues of his identity.
I suppose that I should stop referring to 'titleist', but quite frankly,
I
can't see that it would make any difference if Roger knew which Power
I was playing. I will henceforth limit my discussion of 'titleist' to the
board position there, and not my personal experience, though. Telling
Keith that an Italian Army in Tyrolia led to Austria's elimination in
'titleist' says nothing to indicate that I am Austria, Italy, or one of the
other five 'titleist' Powers, though. So, keep reading, Roger, it's no
fun to insult you, if you're not here to respond. ;^}
Eric.
From - Sat Sep 22 13:13:28 2001
:: Judge: NZMB Game: Gutsy Variant: Standard
:: Deadline: F1901B Sat Sep 22 2001 18:20:23 +1200
Adjustment orders for Winter of 1901. (gutsy.003)
Russia: Builds a fleet in Sevastopol.
Russia: Builds an army in Moscow.
Austria: Builds an army in Trieste.
Austria: Builds an army in Budapest.
Italy: Builds a fleet in Naples.
France: Builds an army in Paris.
France: Builds a fleet in Brest.
Germany: Builds an army in Munich.
Germany: Builds a fleet in Kiel.
Turkey: Builds a fleet in Ankara.
The next phase of 'gutsy' will be Movement for Spring of 1902.
The deadline for orders will be Wed Sep 26 2001 20:00:00 +1200.
